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Author Topic: Orthodox understanding of the roman catholic divine mercy devotion  (Read 14866 times) Average Rating: 0
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stashko
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« on: November 20, 2007, 05:14:18 AM »

What is the orthodox understanding of the divine mercy devotion,,the supposed appearance of jesus and the messages he told Sr.faustina.... stashko
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« Reply #1 on: November 20, 2007, 06:23:22 AM »

From an Orthodox point of view, there are at least two problems with this and similar devotions:

1) Christ is One, undivided Hypostasis. This is basic Orthodox Christian Dogma.
Devotion to various parts of Christ's Body and Attributes such as: The Sacred Heart of Jesus, The Shoulder Wound of Jesus, The Divine Mercy, The Precious Blood etc. begin to create a bit of a theological problem. If we divide Christ into His various "parts" and venerate each "part" individually, are we dividing the Hypostasis of Christ?

2) These devotions are the result of "private revelations" to individuals. Assuming, for the moment, that these "revelations" are not a result of prelest, even if they are genuine, they are still private, and therefore not required to be believed as doctrine. The Roman Catholic Church also states this, yet, in it's praxis, the Roman Catholic Church says differently. The "Feast of the Sacred Heart of Jesus" is a Universal Feast on the Roman Catholic Paschalion- so while nobody is required to accept devotion to the Sacred Heart as a true revelation, every Roman Catholic who goes to Mass 19 days after Pentecost is required to attend a Mass in honour of the Sacred Heart of Jesus. Very confusing. If it's not a doctrine, why have a Universal Feast for it? Similarly, the nun who received the "revelations" of the Devotion to the Divine Mercy, Sr. Faustina, was canonized as a Saint of the Roman Catholic on 30th April 2000, and on the 23rd of may that year, the Roman Catholic Church, in accordance with one of these private Revelations of Sr. Faustina, declared the Second Sunday of Easter to be the "Feast of the Divine Mercy", again, imposing on the whole Roman Catholic Church, a devotion which was the result of a private revelation, and therefore shouldn't require assent of faith.
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« Reply #2 on: November 20, 2007, 09:31:44 AM »

ozgeorge,

Thank you for your post.  While I'm "up in the air" on your first point, your second point summed up (though I didn't  know it until I read it) my "problem" with some of the Catholic devotions.  I knew only that some of them made me uncomfortable, but I couldn't really explain why.  Your 2nd paragraph summed it up nicely.  Grin
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« Reply #3 on: November 20, 2007, 09:59:57 AM »

From the book 'Orthodox Dogmatic Theology' by Fr Michael Pomazansky (pp 188-9)


The One Worship of Christ
To the Lord Jesus Christ as to one person, as the God-Man, it is fitted to give a single inseparable worship, both according to Divinity and according to humanity, precisely because both natures are inseparably united in Him. The decree of the Fathers of the Fifth Ecumenical Council (the Ninth Canon against Heretics) reads: "If anyone shall take the expression, Christ ought to be worshipped in His two natures, in the sense that he wishes to introduce thus two adorations, the one in special relation to God the Word and the other pertaining to the Man ... and does not venerate, by one adoration, God the Word made man, together with His flesh, as the Holy Church has taught from the beginning: let him be anathema" (Seven Ecumenical Councils, NPNF, p.314)

A Word on the Latin Cult of the "Heart of Jesus"
In connection with this decree of the Council it may be seen how out of harmony with the spirit and practice of the Church is the cult of the "Sacred Heart of Jesus" which has been introduced into the Roman Catholic Church. Although the above-cited decree of the Fifth Ecumenical Council touches only on the separate worship of the Divinity and the humanity of the Saviour, it still indirectly tells us that in general the veneration and worship of Christ should be directed to Him as a whole and not to parts of His Being; it must be one. Even if by "heart" we should understand the Saviour's love itself, still neither in the Old Testament nor in the New was there ever a custom to worship separately the love of God, or His wisdom, or His creative or providential power, or His sanctity. All the more must one say this concerning the parts of His bodily nature. There is something unnatural in the separation of the heart from the general bodily nature of the Lord for the purpose of prayer, contrition and worship before Him. Even in the ordinary relationships of life, no matter how much a man might be attached to another - for example, a mother to a child - he would never refer his attachment to the heart of the beloved person, but will refer it to the given person as a whole.

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« Reply #4 on: November 20, 2007, 10:12:25 AM »

From an Orthodox point of view, there are at least two problems with this and similar devotions:

1) Christ is One, undivided Hypostasis. This is basic Orthodox Christian Dogma.
Devotion to various parts of Christ's Body and Attributes such as: The Sacred Heart of Jesus, The Shoulder Wound of Jesus, The Divine Mercy, The Precious Blood etc. begin to create a bit of a theological problem. If we divide Christ into His various "parts" and venerate each "part" individually, are we dividing the Hypostasis of Christ?


I want to laugh at this but I dont want to start you on your hypostatical rant again. If I go to the doctor and tell him that my fingers hurt from responding to too many silly computer arguments, and he treats my fingers individually and writes reports on them and stuff, would that mean that he is dividing me up?  Shocked

To stashko- the truth is that the Byzantines have strong pseudoApollinarian tendencies. Ozgeorge doesnt even think that the humanity of Christ is hypostasis. A hypostasis is a concrete entity. I have heard OOs, following the lead of Cyril and Severus who both affirm that the humanity is hypostasis, say that the Byzantines are cryptoMonophysites. Thats the real reason why they hate Roman Catholic devotions.

What I have said here is going to be trashed by many people but its still true.



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« Reply #5 on: November 20, 2007, 10:45:02 AM »

he treats my fingers individually and writes reports on them and stuff
So this doctor of yours treats your finger as though it was separate from the rest of you, and writes up a report and files it in a seperate file in a folder marked "pathofsolitude's finger" and sends the bill to your finger.
I suggest you get a second opinion.

the truth is that the Byzantines have strong pseudoApollinarian tendencies.
That's funny. I thought it was the Nestorians who accused the Miaphysites of being pseudoApollinarian.

Ozgeorge doesnt even think that the humanity of Christ is hypostasis.
No, he doesn't. So is the Divinity of Christ also an hypostasis? Is so, Christ has two hypostases- therefore the Holy Trinity is a quartet.

A hypostasis is a concrete entity.
Yes, you keep saying this, and I keep asking: "Is Divinity a concrete entity also?" Or is it just imaginary?
Do Angels have hypostases even though they do not have "concrete" bodies?

Cyril and Severus who both affirm that the humanity is hypostasis,
Citations?

the Byzantines are cryptoMonophysites.
Could you please explain how "the Byzantines" as you call them can be considerered "cryptomonophysites" by the Oriental Orthodox considering the fact that the schism came about because "the Byzantines" were diaphysites? You really should do your homework before using big words.

Thats the real reason why they hate Roman Catholic devotions.
I see. Except what you claim is the "real reason" doesn't exist, since "the Byzantines" are diaphysites.
 
What I have said here is going to be trashed by many people but its still true.
I see. So peer review is pre-emptively rejected by you. So then what is your test for "the truth"? Is "the truth" simply "what pathofsolitude believes is true"?
The Oracle has spoken- no point discussing it. You clearly want to be able to just say whatever you want without being questioned in any way. That's fine, I won't question you any more.
« Last Edit: November 20, 2007, 10:45:51 AM by ozgeorge » Logged

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« Reply #6 on: November 20, 2007, 11:13:38 AM »

"I'm up in the air" on your first point,
Carole,
Do you see a difference between:

(1) "Worship of Jesus, the Divine Mercy"
and
(2) "Worship of the Divine Mercy of Jesus"?

What I am saying is that statement No. (1) is acceptable in Orthodoxy, while statement No. (2) starts getting a bit theologically suspect.

George
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« Reply #7 on: November 20, 2007, 11:17:17 AM »

Carole,
Do you see a difference between:

(1) "Worship of Jesus, the Divine Mercy"
and
(2) "Worship of the Divine Mercy of Jesus"?

What I am saying is that statement No. (1) is acceptable in Orthodoxy, while statement No. (2) starts getting a bit theologically suspect.

George

George,

With all due respect - I hold no firm opinion on item number 1.  And I'm not really interested in debating it with you.  I only posted to thank you for item number 2.  I have neither the interest (at this time) nor the intellectual capacity to worry about #1 at this time.  The semantics of the argument really don't interest me.  But I do appreciate your effort.
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« Reply #8 on: November 20, 2007, 11:50:23 AM »

A bigger problem with the Divine Mercy devotion than any supposed veneration of parts of Christ in isolation is the actual text of the chaplet that was "revealed" to Sr. Faustina. It contains this prayer:

"Eternal Father, I offer You the Body and Blood, Soul and Divinity of Your dearly beloved Son, Our Lord Jesus Christ, in atonement for our sins and those of the whole world."

To be very charitable, this reflects a very confused soteriological understanding.
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« Reply #9 on: November 20, 2007, 12:42:01 PM »

I can't resist, but. . .

While you all smugly criticize, parse and split hairs, millions of simple people say this devotion on a daily basis with a humble heart and a sincere faith.

I'd love to see you walk up to one of these people and say to them, "To be very charitable, what you are doing reflects a very confused soteriological understanding."

There is nothing wrong with the Chaplet of Divine Mercy. The prayers are not directed to God's mercy as if it is a fourth part of the Trinity but to God the Father for his mercy effected through Christ's Passion.

I have received many graces from this devotion and know many others who have as well.

(MTA: not directed to Carole)
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« Reply #10 on: November 20, 2007, 12:44:43 PM »

A bigger problem with the Divine Mercy devotion than any supposed veneration of parts of Christ in isolation is the actual text of the chaplet that was "revealed" to Sr. Faustina. It contains this prayer:

"Eternal Father, I offer You the Body and Blood, Soul and Divinity of Your dearly beloved Son, Our Lord Jesus Christ, in atonement for our sins and those of the whole world."

To be very charitable, this reflects a very confused soteriological understanding.

"....I offer you the Body and Blood,..." if done during Mass would loosely correspond to our "Thine own of Thine own, we offer unto to Thee on behalf of all, and for all". But, how do we offer back to God His soul and Divinity?  This is real problematic to put it simply.

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« Reply #11 on: November 20, 2007, 12:47:31 PM »

"....I offer you the Body and Blood,..." if done during Mass would loosely correspond to our "Thine own of Thine own, we offer unto to Thee on behalf of all, and for all". But, how do we offer back to God His soul and Divinity?  This is real problematic to put it simply.

JoeS

Now who's dividing? We say Body and Blood, but implicitly with this is the Soul and Divinity. They can't be divided from each other. So when we say "Body, Blood, Soul and Divinity" we mean the whole Christ, both human and divine.
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« Reply #12 on: November 20, 2007, 12:57:04 PM »

While you all smugly criticize, parse and split hairs,
Why is your only defense to theological objections a sweeping ad hominem that anyone who objects is being "smug"?

millions of simple people say this devotion on a daily basis with a humble heart and a sincere faith.
Millions of people also worship Ganesh with devotion on a daily basis. So what's your point?

I'd love to see you walk up to one of these people and say to them, "To be very charitable, what you are doing reflects a very confused soteriological understanding."
Well ybeayf didn't do that, did he? He raised an intelligent theological point in a discussion forum.
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« Reply #13 on: November 20, 2007, 12:58:35 PM »

Now who's dividing? We say Body and Blood, but implicitly with this is the Soul and Divinity. They can't be divided from each other. So when we say "Body, Blood, Soul and Divinity" we mean the whole Christ, both human and divine.

I think this is another example of the western church in her quest to understand a mystery above what Christ gave us at the Last Supper.  Personally, I would consider this another innovation and one which is unnecessary.  But, thats just my humble opinion.

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« Reply #14 on: November 20, 2007, 01:21:33 PM »

Having read from of Sr. Faustina'a diary, a lot of things troubled me from the beginning:

On page 168, it says: “The moment I knelt down to cross out my own will, as the Lord had bid me to do, I heard this voice in my soul: From now on, do not fear God’s judgment, for you will not be judged.” (from Feb. 4, 1935)

On page 288, “Jesus” says: “That is why I am uniting myself with you so intimately as with no other creature

On page 382, “Jesus” says: “I desire that My mercy be worshipped.”

On page 400, “Jesus” says: “I see your love so pure, purer than that of the angels, and all the more so because you keep fighting.  For your sake I bless the world.”

On page 417,  “Jesus” supposedly gave Sr. Faustina this instruction: “Tell the Superior General to count on you as the most faithful daughter in the Order.”



The incredible amount of praise which Christ supposedly lavishes on Faustina would seem to foster anything but humility. I cannot help but feel like it is a demonic deception meant to foster pride and vanity. However, who am I to say...?
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« Reply #15 on: November 20, 2007, 01:39:01 PM »

The prayers are not directed to God's mercy
May be not, but:
On page 382, “Jesus” says: “I desire that My mercy be worshipped.”
Hmmmmm......
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« Reply #16 on: November 20, 2007, 02:02:36 PM »

As orthodox christians we knew the great mercy God has shown us at the crucification/resurrection,,im just curious ,why would we need another appearance of the Lord to confirm this..plus other things were mentioned by this christ ,unknown to the Holy Fathers the faith once delivered...
Like with the sacred heart storys ...a promise the first nine friday of each month for a get out of hell card,or salvation guaranteed,, again unknown to the Holy Fathers ...wouldn't these new Revelations that this jesus is delivering be considered another Gospel not known to the Holy God bearing Fathers the faith once and for all delivered....stashko
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« Reply #17 on: November 20, 2007, 04:28:17 PM »

I want to laugh at this but I dont want to start you on your hypostatical rant again. If I go to the doctor and tell him that my fingers hurt from responding to too many silly computer arguments, and he treats my fingers individually and writes reports on them and stuff, would that mean that he is dividing me up?  Shocked


I hesitate to venture here, not being a theologian and having very little formal theological training, so I'll address your first, somehwhat mocking point.

The answer to the question is, yes!  He would be dividing you up and treating just the symptoms of your fingers.  He would not be treating you.  If he were to do that he would probably prescribe abstinence from participation in silly computer arguments, to be followed, after sufficient rest, with suitable exercises for your fingers and for your discretion concerning which computer arguments to participate in.  This is called treating the person, not his/her parts.  Tongue

Just my 1.5 cents-worth.  Grin

God Bless,
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« Reply #18 on: November 20, 2007, 05:59:50 PM »

From the book 'Orthodox Dogmatic Theology' by Fr Michael Pomazansky (pp 188-9)


The One Worship of Christ
To the Lord Jesus Christ as to one person, as the God-Man, it is fitted to give a single inseparable worship, both according to Divinity and according to humanity, precisely because both natures are inseparably united in Him. The decree of the Fathers of the Fifth Ecumenical Council (the Ninth Canon against Heretics) reads: "If anyone shall take the expression, Christ ought to be worshipped in His two natures, in the sense that he wishes to introduce thus two adorations, the one in special relation to God the Word and the other pertaining to the Man ... and does not venerate, by one adoration, God the Word made man, together with His flesh, as the Holy Church has taught from the beginning: let him be anathema" (Seven Ecumenical Councils, NPNF, p.314)

A Word on the Latin Cult of the "Heart of Jesus"
In connection with this decree of the Council it may be seen how out of harmony with the spirit and practice of the Church is the cult of the "Sacred Heart of Jesus" which has been introduced into the Roman Catholic Church. Although the above-cited decree of the Fifth Ecumenical Council touches only on the separate worship of the Divinity and the humanity of the Saviour, it still indirectly tells us that in general the veneration and worship of Christ should be directed to Him as a whole and not to parts of His Being; it must be one. Even if by "heart" we should understand the Saviour's love itself, still neither in the Old Testament nor in the New was there ever a custom to worship separately the love of God, or His wisdom, or His creative or providential power, or His sanctity. All the more must one say this concerning the parts of His bodily nature. There is something unnatural in the separation of the heart from the general bodily nature of the Lord for the purpose of prayer, contrition and worship before Him. Even in the ordinary relationships of life, no matter how much a man might be attached to another - for example, a mother to a child - he would never refer his attachment to the heart of the beloved person, but will refer it to the given person as a whole.


Brother;
Wow your  a bottomless well of knowledge ,,,im humbled by it ...stashko Cheesy
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« Reply #19 on: November 20, 2007, 06:19:22 PM »

I will post some quotes when I get the time.

Make sure you find the time. Sooner rather than later.

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« Reply #20 on: November 20, 2007, 06:28:37 PM »

Brother;
Wow your  a bottomless well of knowledge ,,,im humbled by it ...stashko Cheesy

I can only concur with my brother Stashko.  I am constantly humbled by the breadth and depth of knowledge of many of my Orthodox brothers and sisters, especially those posting here.  Makes the 2 or 3 things that rattle around in my nearly-empty head seem as virtually nothing, which, I guess, they are.  And how very refreshing it all is, too!!

In Christ,
Jeff
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« Reply #21 on: November 20, 2007, 08:24:29 PM »

Hello,

1) Christ is One, undivided Hypostasis. This is basic Orthodox Christian Dogma.
It is precisely because of this that when we worship the Sacred Heart, or the Precious Blood, or the Divine Mercy that we give worship directly to the whole Jesus.
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« Reply #22 on: November 20, 2007, 09:36:36 PM »

Make sure you find the time. Sooner rather than later.
FYI, pathofsolitude has responded to this, and I have moved the post to Oriental Orthodox discussion:
( http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php?topic=13478.0 ) in order to keep this thread on topic.

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« Reply #23 on: November 20, 2007, 09:49:56 PM »

I have heard OOs, following the lead of Cyril and Severus who both affirm that the humanity is hypostasis, say that the Byzantines are cryptoMonophysites. Thats the real reason why they hate Roman Catholic devotions.



I'm assuming that by "Byzantines" you mean EO's.  I have never heard them accused of being cryptoMonophysites.  I've heard them accused of being cryptoNestorians and a lot of other things, but not that one.  I'm not saying no one has ever said it.  I obviously don't know every OO on the planet.  It's just that this accusation is a new one to me.

Also, just for the record, OO's are not supposed to participate in the Sacred Heart devotion and, I'm assuming, the other devotions mentioned here.  Our reasons are probably the same as those of the EO's, since our Christology is so similar, despite the different language.  I've heard the Sacred Heart devotion accused of being Nestorian.  I know my priest does not approve of it.

Of course, there are individual OO's (at least Armenians) who have pictures of the Sacred Heart in their homes, but that is really out of ignorance of their own Church's teachings.  They see their neighbors with these pictures and they think it is O.K.  Most people just don't know what is allowed or not allowed.
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« Reply #24 on: November 20, 2007, 10:23:22 PM »

Hello,

From http://thedivinemercy.org/message/:


The Divine Mercy message is one we can call to mind simply by remembering ABC:

A - Ask for His Mercy. God wants us to approach Him in prayer constantly, repenting of our sins and asking Him to pour His mercy out upon us and upon the whole world.

B - Be merciful. God wants us to receive His mercy and let it flow through us to others. He wants us to extend love and forgiveness to others just as He does to us.

C - Completely trust in Jesus. God wants us to know that the graces of His mercy are dependent upon our trust. The more we trust in Jesus, the more we will receive.

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« Reply #25 on: November 20, 2007, 11:07:47 PM »

Hello,

From http://thedivinemercy.org/message/:


The Divine Mercy message is one we can call to mind simply by remembering ABC:

A - Ask for His Mercy. God wants us to approach Him in prayer constantly, repenting of our sins and asking Him to pour His mercy out upon us and upon the whole world.

B - Be merciful. God wants us to receive His mercy and let it flow through us to others. He wants us to extend love and forgiveness to others just as He does to us.

C - Completely trust in Jesus. God wants us to know that the graces of His mercy are dependent upon our trust. The more we trust in Jesus, the more we will receive.



Brother Coder;  the A, B, C, that you mention, it was already known ,from the time of the Holy Apostles,,given to the holy Fathers and many were martyred for what was given once and for all time and if that wasn't trusting in Jesus i don't know what else it could be,,,why would the Blessed Saviour have to reappear ,and remind the church in 1950,, is this the year it happened ,,what was already known,,im sure Jesus being God he didn't forget to tell us the first time, that he had to come back again the second or third time..

What about the other things that go with the Divine Mercy ,posted several post above,,,how do we fit those in with the Holy  Fathers.....i have so many questions to ask ,,,though i vaguely remember the Divine Mercy story..stashko Smiley
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« Reply #26 on: November 20, 2007, 11:17:32 PM »

Hello,

and remind the church in 1950,, is this the year it happened
Not 1950, it was during the 1920's and 1930's.


Brother Coder;  the A, B, C, that you mention, it was already known ,from the time of the Holy Apostles,,given to the holy Fathers and many were martyred for what was given once and for all time,,,why would the Blessed Saviour have to reappear ,and remind the church in 1950,, is this the year it happened ,,what was already known,,im sure Jesus being God he didn't forget to tell us the first time, that he had to come back again the second or third time..
And the reason being - we're human and we're stupid. Sometimes we need a friendly reminder (or at times not so friendly Grin) of what we already know.


What about the other things that go with the Divine Mercy ,posted several post above,,,how do we fit those in with the Holy  Fathers..
What specifics things are you referring to.


...i have so many questions to ask ,,,though i vaguely remember the Divine Mercy story..stashko Smiley
Ask your questions and I shall try to answer.
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« Reply #27 on: November 20, 2007, 11:20:43 PM »

Ask your questions and I shall try to answer.
What does "Jesus" who spoke to St. Faustina mean by this: “I desire that My mercy be worshipped.”
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« Reply #28 on: November 20, 2007, 11:32:28 PM »

What does "Jesus" who spoke to St. Faustina mean by this: “I desire that My mercy be worshipped.”

From the Diary of Sr. Faustina:
"Today, I took part in a one day retreat. When I was at the last conference, the priest was speaking of how much the world needs God’s mercy, and that this seems to be a special time when people have a great need of prayer and God’s mercy. Then I heard a voice in my soul: "these words are for you. Do all you possibly can for this work of My mercy. I desire that My mercy be worshipped, and I am giving mankind the last hope of salvation; that is, recourse to My mercy. My Heart rejoices in this feast." After these words, I understood that nothing can dispense me from the obligation which the Lord demands of me."
Source: http://our.homewithgod.com/divinemercy/book2page2/
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« Reply #29 on: November 20, 2007, 11:33:34 PM »

Private relevations are non binding to Catholics or Orthodox...this is a non-issue to me
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« Reply #30 on: November 20, 2007, 11:36:42 PM »

Hello,
Not 1950, it was during the 1920's and 1930's.

 And the reason being - we're human and we're stupid. Sometimes we need a friendly reminder (or at times not so friendly Grin) of what we already know.

What specifics things are you referring to.

Ask your questions and I shall try to answer.


The reminders Brother we have already ,,and they are the writings of the Holy Church Fathers /and Holy Scriptures..
please if you know of a link that i can read the whole Divine Mercy story... thank you.brother stashko
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« Reply #31 on: November 20, 2007, 11:40:00 PM »

Private relevations are non binding to Catholics or Orthodox...this is a non-issue to me

Thats true if it remained private..its not  now its  public ...stashko
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« Reply #32 on: November 20, 2007, 11:46:35 PM »

Private relevations are non binding to Catholics or Orthodox...this is a non-issue to me
Do you really have a choice?
In accordance with these particular revelations, the Congregation for Divine Worship and the Discipline of the Sacraments instituted the Sunday of Divine Mercy, and the Vatican specifically mentions St Faustina Kowalska as the cause of this Feast Day in it's documents regarding the "Sunday of Divine Mercy":
Quote
St Faustina Kowalska saw coming from this Heart that was overflowing with generous love, two rays of light which illuminated the world. "The two rays", according to what Jesus himself told her, "represent the blood and the water" (Diary, p. 132). The blood recalls the sacrifice of Golgotha and the mystery of the Eucharist; the water, according to the rich symbolism of the Evangelist John, makes us think of Baptism and the Gift of the Holy Spirit (cf. Jn 3: 5; 4: 14)
Source: vatican.va
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« Reply #33 on: November 21, 2007, 02:06:41 AM »

I'm assuming that by "Byzantines" you mean EO's.  I have never heard them accused of being cryptoMonophysites. 

This is in fact a widely held criticism of the Eastern Orthodox.  However, it is a criticism made by Westerners, and decidedly not the Oriental Orthodox!
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« Reply #34 on: November 21, 2007, 03:52:23 AM »

I had a good post made up, but basically ran out of steam.  I didn't have access to any non-online sources for this at hand (especially at this hour).  So I didn't post about particulars on this.
Ok, really the Feast day of Divine Mercy isn't that hard to understand.  It does take some background though to get to the bottom of the issue. 
The Feast Day was implemented to teach the faithful about, according to http://www.divinemercysunday.com/mercy_sunday.htm,
  Thus, to fittingly observe the Feast of Mercy, we should:

1.    Celebrate the Feast on the Sunday after Easter;

2.    Sincerely repent of all our sins;

3.    Place our complete trust in Jesus;

4.    Go to Confession, preferably before that Sunday;

5.    Receive Holy Communion on the day of the Feast;

6.    Venerate* the Image of The Divine Mercy;

7.    Be merciful to others, through our actions, words, and prayers on their behalf.

And I quote that from the referenced link.
Also, read through the entire page. 
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« Reply #35 on: November 21, 2007, 05:17:11 AM »

  Thus, to fittingly observe the Feast of Mercy, we should:

1.    Celebrate the Feast on the Sunday after Easter;

2.    Sincerely repent of all our sins;

3.    Place our complete trust in Jesus;

4.    Go to Confession, preferably before that Sunday;

5.    Receive Holy Communion on the day of the Feast;

6.    Venerate* the Image of The Divine Mercy;

7.    Be merciful to others, through our actions, words, and prayers on their behalf.

The only thing different to any other Sunday the veneration of the image of the Divine Mercy.
This whole thing smacks of "spookodoxy". A Universal Feast of the Roman Catholic Church is established on the basis of some voices heard by a nun. Is this what we have been reduced to? Consulting oracles,  channellers and mediums to determine the direction we should go?
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« Reply #36 on: November 21, 2007, 08:14:52 AM »

Hello,

What does "Jesus" who spoke to St. Faustina mean by this: “I desire that My mercy be worshipped.”
Because this worship is really worship of God, as I mentioned due to the reality of His undivided hypostasis.
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« Reply #37 on: November 21, 2007, 08:16:43 AM »

Hello,

Do you really have a choice?
In accordance with these particular revelations, the Congregation for Divine Worship and the Discipline of the Sacraments instituted the Sunday of Divine Mercy, and the Vatican specifically mentions St Faustina Kowalska as the cause of this Feast Day in it's documents regarding the "Sunday of Divine Mercy":
God's mercy is one of the basic ideas in both Judaism and Christianity. Lord, have mercy - is one of the most basic and fundamental prayers there is. The real question is why did it take 2000 years for this Universal Feast to be established?
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« Reply #38 on: November 21, 2007, 08:20:08 AM »

Hello,


The reminders Brother we have already ,,and they are the writings of the Holy Church Fathers /and Holy Scriptures..
please if you know of a link that i can read the whole Divine Mercy story... thank you.brother stashko

This link - http://thedivinemercy.org/message/ - will take you to the website for the National Shrine of Divine Mercy in Stockbridge, MA. It's probably the most accurate and comprehensive information you'll get on the web. If you want more, you can buy Saint Faustina's Diary from their gift shop online.
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« Reply #39 on: November 21, 2007, 08:55:33 AM »

Because this worship is really worship of God, as I mentioned due to the reality of His undivided hypostasis.
That doesn't explain why the Second Person of the Trinity would say "I desire that my Mercy be worshipped". If that's not what He meant, why would Christ, Who never once minced words in the Gospel, say something when He means something else? And if He did say that He desires His mercy to be worshipped, this raises some basic theological problems: Is the Mercy of the Second Person of the Trinity to be considered "God"? Does God's Mercy share the same Divine Essence as the Persons of the Trinity?

God's mercy is one of the basic ideas in both Judaism and Christianity.
I'm aware of that. But what has never before occurred in the history of Judaism or Christianity is that God asked that one of his attributes be worshipped. We do not worship God's dispassion, nor do we worship God's peace, nor do we worship God's love,  nor do we worship God's Justice...so why would He ask us to worship His mercy?

Lord, have mercy - is one of the most basic and fundamental prayers there is.
Yep, but the prayer "we worship your mercy" is unheard of before St. Faustina. 

The real question is why did it take 2000 years for this Universal Feast to be established?
Some reasons might include:
1) Lack of Tradition for it.
2) Lack of Patristic support for it.
3) It fails the Vincentian Canon test.
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« Reply #40 on: November 21, 2007, 10:03:44 AM »

Of course, there are individual OO's (at least Armenians) who have pictures of the Sacred Heart in their homes, but that is really out of ignorance of their own Church's teachings.  They see their neighbors with these pictures and they think it is O.K.  Most people just don't know what is allowed or not allowed.

Hi Salpy. I love the Armenian people.

I am wondering: what could possibly be wrong with the Sacred Heart picture?? Its so famous in the West as I guess like a Christian cultural icon that no one really associates it with a private revelation.

The Coptic church in my town has a HUGE [maybe the biggest I've ever seen!] Sacred Heart picture hanging up in the reception/meeting area. I really like it. It reminds me of Jesus' heart.

To ozgeorge or anyone else-
I wonder if Jesus divided himself up into parts when he said: "I am gentle and humble in heart"?? The imagery of the physical heart is only symbolic. Likewise Westerners have devotion to the physical heart as representing the deep emotions etc of Jesus.
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« Reply #41 on: November 21, 2007, 02:32:41 PM »

Hello,
This link - http://thedivinemercy.org/message/ - will take you to the website for the National Shrine of Divine Mercy in Stockbridge, MA. It's probably the most accurate and comprehensive information you'll get on the web. If you want more, you can buy Saint Faustina's Diary from their gift shop online.

Brother coder ,,im a little confused ,Brother Username mentioned that the sunday after Easter is to be honored why???when the greatest day the festival of festivals is Pasca the day of Resurrection the Greatest Mercy ever for mankind ..Sung in all the orthodox churches.this is the day the Lord has made let us rejoice in it ...thats why Brother i have to be skeptic no offense to you about this devotion...i my self can't accept it....Brother Stashko   also i will sudy the link you gave me God Bless ....
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« Reply #42 on: November 21, 2007, 04:43:11 PM »

That doesn't explain why the Second Person of the Trinity would say "I desire that my Mercy be worshipped". If that's not what He meant, why would Christ, Who never once minced words in the Gospel, say something when He means something else? And if He did say that He desires His mercy to be worshipped, this raises some basic theological problems: Is the Mercy of the Second Person of the Trinity to be considered "God"? Does God's Mercy share the same Divine Essence as the Persons of the Trinity?
 I'm aware of that. But what has never before occurred in the history of Judaism or Christianity is that God asked that one of his attributes be worshipped. We do not worship God's dispassion, nor do we worship God's peace, nor do we worship God's love,  nor do we worship God's Justice...so why would He ask us to worship His mercy?
 Yep, but the prayer "we worship your mercy" is unheard of before St. Faustina. 
Some reasons might include:
1) Lack of Tradition for it.
2) Lack of Patristic support for it.
3) It fails the Vincentian Canon test.


The best source would be reading Sister Faustina's original diary.  Either the original or a paper facismile of the original document.  Rather we are going on a translation from a diary that was written in (most likely) portugeuse.  I wonder what the nun really wrote versus what the translaters wrote (promoting their cause or what-not). 
And why is Fatima never doubted?  Certainly there are many instances that are, even modern situations.
I can blindly say that as I am sure a google search would clear that up.  I know my cousin and his wife go to Ireland and toss money at this lady who claims to see that Virgin Mary (at least they were doing that).  I don't remember her name, but I do remember one of my cousins saying she was already proclaimed not valid.
Anyway, I see your point OzGeorge.  Honestly I can't answer why the RCC would create a Feast Day due to a private devotion.  John Paul 2 was a huge Fatima believer and that may explain why the Feast exists.
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« Reply #43 on: November 21, 2007, 07:34:41 PM »

Hello,

That doesn't explain why the Second Person of the Trinity would say "I desire that my Mercy be worshipped". If that's not what He meant, why would Christ, Who never once minced words in the Gospel, say something when He means something else? And if He did say that He desires His mercy to be worshipped, this raises some basic theological problems: Is the Mercy of the Second Person of the Trinity to be considered "God"? Does God's Mercy share the same Divine Essence as the Persons of the Trinity?
 I'm aware of that. But what has never before occurred in the history of Judaism or Christianity is that God asked that one of his attributes be worshipped. We do not worship God's dispassion, nor do we worship God's peace, nor do we worship God's love,  nor do we worship God's Justice...so why would He ask us to worship His mercy?
 Yep, but the prayer "we worship your mercy" is unheard of before St. Faustina. 
I could quote Saint Thomas Aquinas and his ideas of transcendentals. Basically, God is the ultimate of the transcendentals and evil is the negation of those.

Therefore - God not only is good, He is goodness itself. God not only exists, He is existence itself. God is not only beautiful, He is beauty itself. God not only loves, He is love itself (this one is actually verbatim from Scriptures). And God is not only merciful, He is mercy itself.



Some reasons might include:
1) Lack of Tradition for it.
2) Lack of Patristic support for it.
3) It fails the Vincentian Canon test.

No tradition of imploring God's mercy - how about every time in the Liturgy we pray "Lord, have mercy". I wonder how many times mercy is spoken of in the Fathers (anyone care to parse the texts? Grin).
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« Reply #44 on: November 21, 2007, 07:36:56 PM »

Hello,

Brother coder ,,im a little confused ,Brother Username mentioned that the sunday after Easter is to be honored why???when the greatest day the festival of festivals is Pasca the day of Resurrection the Greatest Mercy ever for mankind ..Sung in all the orthodox churches.this is the day the Lord has made let us rejoice in it ...thats why Brother i have to be skeptic no offense to you about this devotion...i my self can't accept it....Brother Stashko   also i will sudy the link you gave me God Bless ....
This link from that site details briefly the feast.
http://thedivinemercy.org/message/devotions/mercysundy.php
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« Reply #45 on: November 21, 2007, 07:49:07 PM »

Hello,

The best source would be reading Sister Faustina's original diary.  Either the original or a paper facismile of the original document.  Rather we are going on a translation from a diary that was written in (most likely) portugeuse.  I wonder what the nun really wrote versus what the translaters wrote (promoting their cause or what-not).
Not likely as Saint Faustina was Polish.  Grin

It is interesting to note that faulty translations were the reason why the Vatican disapproved of the writings for a time. It was difficult getting accurate translations and information since at the time Poland was under the control of the Soviets.

I do have confidence (and so does the Vatican) that the current translations are accurate. I can post straight from the diary if you have questions beyond what the website I linked provides answers for.

And why is Fatima never doubted?  Certainly there are many instances that are, even modern situations.
I can blindly say that as I am sure a google search would clear that up.  I know my cousin and his wife go to Ireland and toss money at this lady who claims to see that Virgin Mary (at least they were doing that).  I don't remember her name, but I do remember one of my cousins saying she was already proclaimed not valid.
The case of Saint Faustina has been investigated thoroughly. It is found to not contradict Church teachings and has been approved of for belief. That means that while not a required belief, it is able to be reliably believed by Catholics.

Here are a couple of articles on private revelation:

http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/13005a.htm
http://www.catholic.com/library/Private_Revelation.asp


Anyway, I see your point OzGeorge.  Honestly I can't answer why the RCC would create a Feast Day due to a private devotion.  John Paul 2 was a huge Fatima believer and that may explain why the Feast exists.
The Orthodox have a feast day for Our Lady of Kazan, feast day of the Protection of the Mother of God, and others - all of which fall under the realm of private revelation.
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« Reply #46 on: November 21, 2007, 08:32:02 PM »

There's no comparison with the Most Holy Mother of God appearing and the Appearance of the Blessed Saviour.. Our Salvation is in Christs hands he is our judge and jury..The Holy Mother can iintercede only she doesn't save us ...If the Holy Mother  did appear and said some thing contrary to the holy fathers the faith once delivered it wouldn't be accepted.....Did this Jesus in this appearance say to set aside the first or secound sunday after easter for this devotion to the devine mercy if he did run from it ..you can not seperate his mercy fom his Crucifixion /resurrection...why wasn't it put on the day of resurrection pasca the feast of feasts...this jesus in this Divine mercy is giving another gospel not to affend you brother satan can quote 98% or angel may be even more to decieve  ...the best thing is stick to what was handed down to the Holy Fathers that been tried and true For many eastern Fathers and Western Fathers have been martyred for the faith once delivered ,,,so you see brother we orthodox christians have to be on guard ..stashko
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« Reply #47 on: November 21, 2007, 08:48:17 PM »

Hi Salpy. I love the Armenian people.

I am wondering: what could possibly be wrong with the Sacred Heart picture?? Its so famous in the West as I guess like a Christian cultural icon that no one really associates it with a private revelation.

The Coptic church in my town has a HUGE [maybe the biggest I've ever seen!] Sacred Heart picture hanging up in the reception/meeting area. I really like it. It reminds me of Jesus' heart.


I've actually never been given a thorough explanation of why we aren't supposed to have the Sacred Heart devotion.  I just know it is not approved of.  When I started operating the church bookstore, someone tried donating some pictures of the Sacred Heart and my priest forbade it.  The only thing I have really heard against it is that it may be semi-Nestorian.  Also, I have never seen the Sacred Heart in any OO Church.  I'm surprised you saw it at that Coptic Church.  But, like I said, not everyone sticks strictly to the rules.
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« Reply #48 on: November 21, 2007, 08:49:23 PM »

Hello,
I could quote Saint Thomas Aquinas
You could, but that would hardly be a reason to suggest why it should be acceptable to the Orthodox.

No tradition of imploring God's mercy
No. Get it right: There is no tradition in Christianity or even Judaism of worshipping God's Mercy or any other of His attributes, yet "Jesus" tells Sr. Faustina that this is now what "he" wants.

The Orthodox have a feast day for Our Lady of Kazan, feast day of the Protection of the Mother of God, and others - all of which fall under the realm of private revelation.
Such Feasts are not Universally observed (Greeks don't commemorate Our Lady of Kazan). They appear on local Calendars. If another local Church wishes to adopt the feast, they are free to do so, but it is never imposed. Nor are they "Holy Days of Obligation" (as is the RC Sunday of Divine Mercy)
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« Reply #49 on: November 22, 2007, 02:24:22 AM »

The Orthodox have a feast day for Our Lady of Kazan, feast day of the Protection of the Mother of God, and others - all of which fall under the realm of private revelation.
Private revelation to one individual, or public revelation to a large crowd?
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« Reply #50 on: November 23, 2007, 07:15:16 PM »

Hello,

There's no comparison with the Most Holy Mother of God appearing and the Appearance of the Blessed Saviour.. Our Salvation is in Christs hands he is our judge and jury..The Holy Mother can iintercede only she doesn't save us ...If the Holy Mother  did appear and said some thing contrary to the holy fathers the faith once delivered it wouldn't be accepted.....Did this Jesus in this appearance say to set aside the first or secound sunday after easter for this devotion to the devine mercy if he did run from it ..you can not seperate his mercy fom his Crucifixion /resurrection...why wasn't it put on the day of resurrection pasca the feast of feasts...this jesus in this Divine mercy is giving another gospel not to affend you brother satan can quote 98% or angel may be even more to decieve  ...the best thing is stick to what was handed down to the Holy Fathers that been tried and true For many eastern Fathers and Western Fathers have been martyred for the faith once delivered ,,,so you see brother we orthodox christians have to be on guard ..stashko
It is one thing to discern such apparitions - which the Church does - and another to completely dismiss them out of hand. There are many apparitions that the Church discerns to not be credible (some such as Mary on a BLT that are dismissed out of hand). There are others that after the Church has investigated thoroughly and prayed on it and has discerned through the Holy Spirit to be not contrary to the faith and credible. These are approved for belief by the faithful (though they are not required to be believed nor does any binding doctrine come originate out of them).
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« Reply #51 on: November 23, 2007, 07:18:21 PM »

Hello,

Private revelation to one individual, or public revelation to a large crowd?
That is not what the Church means by those terms. Public Revelation is that revelation given by God to His people during Biblical times. It ended with the death of Saint John the Apostle.

Private Revelation is that revelation that has come after, whether to a single individual in seclusion or to 10 million people gathered together. No binding doctrine originates from Private Revelation.

I posted a few links that will detail further what Private Revelation is.
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« Reply #52 on: November 23, 2007, 07:27:39 PM »

Hello,

You could, but that would hardly be a reason to suggest why it should be acceptable to the Orthodox.
You're right - we'd need to have a thread on Orthodoxy and Scholasticism - or even Orthodoxy and Thomism. Unfortunately, I lack the time right now to devote to such an indepth subject. Indeed, I am lacking in time for even this thread (though I couldn't just let is slide Wink), which is why I have linked to so many sites without much added commentary. During the winter break, I'll have about a month of fairly free time to dialogue further.

No. Get it right: There is no tradition in Christianity or even Judaism of worshipping God's Mercy or any other of His attributes, yet "Jesus" tells Sr. Faustina that this is now what "he" wants.
Love is what could be called an attribute of God. And yet, we are told that God is love (1 Jn. 4:8 ). And if God is love, then that love which is God should be worshiped as God, since it is God. Just one (explicitly scriptural) example of Saint Thomas' transcendental principles.

Such Feasts are not Universally observed (Greeks don't commemorate Our Lady of Kazan). They appear on local Calendars. If another local Church wishes to adopt the feast, they are free to do so, but it is never imposed. Nor are they "Holy Days of Obligation" (as is the RC Sunday of Divine Mercy)
HAHA! Every Sunday is a day of obligation.
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« Reply #53 on: May 29, 2008, 02:49:45 AM »

The Holy Mother can intercede only she doesn't save us .
Then why do so many EO prayers ask her to save us!!
If you want to criticize customs start here.
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« Reply #54 on: May 29, 2008, 07:57:40 AM »

Then why do so many EO prayers ask her to save us!!
If you want to criticize customs start here.

Why does "Save us" always have to directly mean we are giving her co-redemptrix status?

If we pray to a Saint or the Theotokos to intercede on our behalf and we are led away from some vice, some sin, some danger or healed from some ailment, have they not saved us?
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« Reply #55 on: May 29, 2008, 12:10:42 PM »

Quote
Then why do so many EO prayers ask her to save us!! If you want to criticize customs start here.

Anyone can "save" another person, in a certain sense:

"Brethren, if any of you do err from the truth, and one convert him; Let him know, that he which converteth the sinner from the error of his way shall save a soul from death, and shall hide a multitude of sins." - James 5:19-20

"Meditate upon these things; give thyself wholly to them; that thy profiting may appear to all. Take heed unto thyself, and unto the doctrine; continue in them: for in doing this thou shalt both save thyself, and them that hear thee." - 1 Tim. 4:15-16

Only God can do the saving at the root of it, but humans can be the instruments of God, and in that sense humans can help "save us". The Theotokos can thus have a role in saving us by her prayers.
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« Reply #56 on: May 29, 2008, 01:07:43 PM »

Why does "Save us" always have to directly mean we are giving her co-redemptrix status?

If we pray to a Saint or the Theotokos to intercede on our behalf and we are led away from some vice, some sin, some danger or healed from some ailment, have they not saved us?
Just a note for clarification on the Catholic meaning of co-redemptrix. It doesn't mean that she is another redeemer but that she has co-operated with the one Redeemer and works with (co-operate means work with)  him to saves us as Friul has indicated.
BTW Friul, you explained it well.
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« Reply #57 on: June 17, 2008, 11:27:43 AM »

I'd just like to humbly point out that the Divine Mercy Chaplet was my first introduction to an Eastern Christian prayer.  You see, the last prayer in the chaplet is:

"Holy God,
Holy Mighty One,
Holy Immortal One,
Have mercy on us
and on the whole world."

and the very first time I attended the Divine Liturgy and heard that chant (a slightly different translation, of course, but quite recognizable), I felt right at home!
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« Reply #58 on: June 17, 2008, 11:39:05 AM »

^ I never heard the last phrase "and on the whole world" used in the Thrice-Holy Prayers.  What Jurisdiction's Church did you hear the above given that you are Greek Catholic?

Edited post to clarify the question.
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« Reply #59 on: June 17, 2008, 11:52:27 AM »

Um, I'm not Greek Catholic; I'm Byzantine Rite Catholic (actually Latin Rite Catholic, but married to a Byzantine Rite Catholic - is that enough info, sir?  Wink  police).

And I did say that it was a slightly different translation, but still recognizable.

In our church , we sing:

"Holy God,
Holy and Mighty,
Holy and Immortal,
Have mercy on us."

Yes, the Divine Mercy chaplet adds the phrase "and on the whole world".  As I said, it's a different translation, but still close enough that I "got it" the first time I heard it.

(Oh dear, only my third post here and I'm already in trouble!!!  Grin)
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« Reply #60 on: June 17, 2008, 12:56:14 PM »

Discussion about the Eastern-Rite Chuches and their names can be found here:  The sui iuris Churches of the Eastern Rite

--Friul
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« Reply #61 on: June 17, 2008, 07:12:50 PM »

I never heard the last phrase "and on the whole world" used in the Thrice-Holy Prayers.  What Jurisdiction's Church did you hear the above given that you are Greek Catholic?

This is in the Divine Mercy chaplet, not the Trisagion prayers.
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« Reply #62 on: June 17, 2008, 08:39:41 PM »

Then why do so many EO prayers ask her to save us!!
If you want to criticize customs start here.



We always ask The Holy Mother and The Saint's to Intercede For Us ,,But on There own they can do nothing...The Lord Allow's it...What Son wouldn't listen to his mother..Especially the Son of God ,when his Holy Mother Should Ask on our behalf...
 Seem to me and the protestants ,,That your catholic church have made her into  a pagan goddess and the pope  a pagan god ,,you preach mary more than christ,,and pope more that Christ...the images of lourd's, or fatima
 show rays shooting out her hands,,titles imaculate conception..mediatrix of graces..imaculate heart....Sacred heart ...Non of it is found in the holy Scriptures or in the holy father's the faith once delivered unto salvation....
 For us orthodox The Holy Mother point's to Jesus...as the center of our redemption...

 The other title that's blasphemes the Spouse of the Holy Spirit... nowhere does it say she's the spouse.be in scriptures or  the Holy Father's never mentioned that......or i never heard or read that in orthodoxy,, only on a catholic forum....SmileyCentral.com" border="0SmileyCentral.com" border="0Господе Исусе Христе Помилуј Се На Нас Грешне...Амин..SmileyCentral.com" border="0
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« Reply #63 on: June 17, 2008, 09:35:27 PM »


 Seem to me and the protestants ,,That your catholic church have made her into  a pagan goddess and the pope  a pagan god ,,you preach mary more than christ,,and pope more that Christ...the images of lourd's, or fatima
 show rays shooting out her hands,,titles imaculate conception..mediatrix of graces..imaculate heart....Sacred heart ...Non of it is found in the holy Scriptures or in the holy father's the faith once delivered unto salvation....
 For us orthodox The Holy Mother point's to Jesus...as the center of our redemption...

 The other title that's blasphemes the Spouse of the Holy Spirit... nowhere does it say she's the spouse.be in scriptures or  the Holy Father's never mentioned that......or i never heard or read that in orthodoxy,, only on a catholic forum....SmileyCentral.com" border="0SmileyCentral.com" border="0Господе Исусе Христе Помилуј Се На Нас Грешне...Амин..SmileyCentral.com" border="0

There is a strong and profound Marian devotion within the Roman Catholic Church, there is no doubt about that, but to state that the Theotokos or the Pope are raised above Chirst shows an extrememly ignorant view of Roman Catholic theology.  Saying that Theotokos is worshipped as some "pagan goddess" is not only a gross distortion of official Roman Catholic Church teaching, but insulting not only to Catholics on this forum but to her own holy name.  One only has to look at the CCC to see that Christ is undoubtably at the core of the Roman Catholic Church and that she is the "masterwork of the mission of the Son and the Spirit in the fullness of time" (721) and "most perfectly embodies the obedience of faith" (148).  In turn, "what the [Roman] Catholic faith believes about Mary is based on what it believes about Christ, and what it teaches about Mary illumines in turn its faith in Christ". (487)  The Pope is not 'preached' about more than Christ and one only has to look either at the Roman Catholic liturgies to see that, or at the various writings by Roman Catholic theologians, Priests, Bishops, Cardinals or Popes (including Cardinal Ratzinger's Dominus Iesus).

I understand you disagree (strongly) with various dogma, apparitions, revelations, devotions, etc of the Roman Catholic Church, but you can do some constructively and charitably.  A proper discussion is not going to occur when people feel attacked but when a proper dialogue is initiated.  Calling Roman Catholic devotion to the Theotokos pagan, whether you agree or disagree with various dogma, is insulting on various levels and erroneous.  If you want to constructively discuss the Divine Mercy devotion, enjoy; if you want to sling mud, take it to the private.  Your posting style, when Roman Catholicism is concerned, is consistently abrasive and 'drive-by' in nature.
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« Reply #64 on: June 17, 2008, 10:26:10 PM »

Tangent about Pope/God on Earth was merged with this thread:  Pope of Rome Questions: Christ/God on earth, representative of Christ, etc?

-- Friul
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« Reply #65 on: June 17, 2008, 10:30:49 PM »

There is a strong and profound Marian devotion within the Roman Catholic Church, there is no doubt about that, but to state that the Theotokos or the Pope are raised above Chirst shows an extrememly ignorant view of Roman Catholic theology.  Saying that Theotokos is worshipped as some "pagan goddess" is not only a gross distortion of official Roman Catholic Church teaching, but insulting not only to Catholics on this forum but to her own holy name.  One only has to look at the CCC to see that Christ is undoubtably at the core of the Roman Catholic Church and that she is the "masterwork of the mission of the Son and the Spirit in the fullness of time" (721) and "most perfectly embodies the obedience of faith" (148).  In turn, "what the [Roman] Catholic faith believes about Mary is based on what it believes about Christ, and what it teaches about Mary illumines in turn its faith in Christ". (487)  The Pope is not 'preached' about more than Christ and one only has to look either at the Roman Catholic liturgies to see that, or at the various writings by Roman Catholic theologians, Priests, Bishops, Cardinals or Popes (including Cardinal Ratzinger's Dominus Iesus).

I understand you disagree (strongly) with various dogma, apparitions, revelations, devotions, etc of the Roman Catholic Church, but you can do some constructively and charitably.  A proper discussion is not going to occur when people feel attacked but when a proper dialogue is initiated.  Calling Roman Catholic devotion to the Theotokos pagan, whether you agree or disagree with various dogma, is insulting on various levels and erroneous.  If you want to constructively discuss the Divine Mercy devotion, enjoy; if you want to sling mud, take it to the private.  Your posting style, when Roman Catholicism is concerned, is consistently abrasive and 'drive-by' in nature.


For proof read the caf ..that mary is preached more than christ ... pope ,,magistarium,more than christ...no it's not hate  it's how i see it...and read it on there own forum and so do the protestants...SmileyCentral.com" border="0
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« Reply #66 on: June 17, 2008, 10:34:10 PM »


For proof read the caf ..that mary is preached more than christ ... pope ,,magistarium,more than christ...no it's not hate  it's how i see it...and read it on there own forum and so do the protestants...SmileyCentral.com" border="0
Other than your own self-defense, what's your point in repeating this here on this thread?
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« Reply #67 on: June 17, 2008, 10:40:14 PM »

The other person is accusing me of hating i don't hate anybody..im just writing on what ive read don't agree on.that's all...SmileyCentral.com" border="0
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« Reply #68 on: June 17, 2008, 11:01:08 PM »


For proof read the caf ..that mary is preached more than christ ... pope ,,magistarium,more than christ...no it's not hate  it's how i see it...and read it on there own forum and so do the protestants...SmileyCentral.com" border="0

I have read caf and I got banned for holding traditionalist Roman Catholic views at the time.  I studied with the intention of heading to St. Augustine's seminary in Toronto under Father Patrick of the SSPX, Father William of the FSSP, and was in contact with Bishop Matthew of Hamilton.  Obviously, my knowledge is far from perfect, but I do have a good grasp of Roman Catholic theology, devotions and traditions.  To base Roman Catholicism off an internet forum, let alone CAF, is ludicrous.  If you want to know what the RCC teaches, read the CCC, read the Code of Canon Law, read various works from the last several centuries, talk to learned members of the clergy, etc.  Forums are great places to get opinions but they may differ from official teachings substantially.  CAF did so on many occasions.  If a Catholic were to read liberal positions on homosexual marriages, female priesthood and ecumenicism from Orthodox sources, wouldn't you rather they find proper teachings and base their opinions off that?
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« Reply #69 on: June 17, 2008, 11:11:07 PM »

The other person is accusing me of hating i don't hate anybody..im just writing on what ive read don't agree on.that's all...SmileyCentral.com" border="0

It is just your posting style, it reeks of contempt.  I am not sure if it is intentional or not, but people (especially inquirers from Catholicism) will be more willing to further explore Orthodoxy when they are met with love, understanding, patience and charity.  When met with what appears to be a drive-by posting style with your laundry list of grievances with little to no actual content, they will most likely tire of inquiring and look elsewhere (and for some unfortunately, stop looking all together).

When moderating a section such as this, one has to balance the needs and feelings of both sides without stifling free speech.  The easiest way to do so is to encourage discussion and debate, but charitably.  One allows the free discussion of ideas and civil debate, while curving the posts that do little to encourage that. 

If you disagree with my style, you can PM ozgeorge about it.
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« Reply #70 on: June 17, 2008, 11:25:25 PM »

 Brother peace...Actually i was answering skippy that's all ..i forgot to merge his and my in a quote  that's all....i really dont believe in those apparition period .if there wrong and ill tell him.. i won't tell him what he want's to hear if i don't agree on it and that's that....i haven't been on this thread for a while till skippy want'd to correct me...SmileyCentral.com" border="0


Had to correct name sparky  to skippy   sooorrrryyyyy
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ГОСПОДЕ ГОСПОДЕ ,ПОГЛЕДАЈ СА НЕБА ,ДОЂИ И ПОСЕТИ ТВОЈ ВИНОГРАД ТВОЈА ДЕСНИЦА ПОСАДИЛА АМИН АМИН.
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« Reply #71 on: June 17, 2008, 11:33:43 PM »

Brother peace...Actually i was answering sparky that's all ..i forgot to merge his and my in a quote  that's all....i really dont believe in those apparition period .if there wrong and ill tell him.. i won't tell him what he want's to hear if i don't agree on it and that's that....i haven't been on this thread for a while till sparky want'd to correct me...SmileyCentral.com" border="0

No worries.  When I was Roman Catholic, I was not bound to believe such apparitions, and for most, I chose not to.  You in no way have to water down your beliefs or faith for others, all I am asking is that you try to post in a way that encourages further civil discussion.
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« Reply #72 on: June 18, 2008, 01:09:03 AM »

This is in the Divine Mercy chaplet, not the Trisagion prayers.

I'm going to take a different tact in providing the Orthodox Understanding of the Divine Mercy Devotion.  I quoted some of the following text from the link below.

Source for Excerpt Below

Jesus said later to Sister Faustina:

"Say unceasingly this chaplet that I have taught you. Anyone who
says it will receive great Mercy at the hour of death. Priests
will recommend it to sinners as the last hope. Even the most
hardened sinner, if he recites this Chaplet even once, will
receive grace from My Infinite Mercy.
I want the whole world to
know My Infinite Mercy. I want to give unimaginable graces to
those who trust in My Mercy...."


Another link on the same website quotes 2 passages of Scripture: Isaiah 29:13 & Matthew 5:7.  I'll reproduce the passage from Isaiah:

13 Inasmuch as these people draw near with their mouths And honor Me with their lips, But have removed their hearts far from Me, And their fear toward Me is taught by the commandment of men

The Orthodox Study Bible says about the Isaiah Passage:

A right heart before God in prayer is even more important than the right words, for God hears our "groanings which cannot be uttered"

So, if the passage from Isaiah refers to how Man is taught to fear God via the Commandment of Man, the comments to Sister Faustina implicate that Man continues to have fear of God due to the commandments of Man and only a Priest can "cure" one's fear of God by recommending the Divine Mercy Chaplet as a last hope such that a sinner can obtain "Mercy" from Jesus.  Is there anywhere in the New Testament where someone was afraid of the Son of God?
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« Reply #73 on: June 18, 2008, 09:53:40 AM »

There is a strong and profound Marian devotion within the Roman Catholic Church, there is no doubt about that, but to state that the Theotokos or the Pope are raised above Chirst shows an extrememly ignorant view of Roman Catholic theology.  Saying that Theotokos is worshipped as some "pagan goddess" is not only a gross distortion of official Roman Catholic Church teaching, but insulting not only to Catholics on this forum but to her own holy name.  One only has to look at the CCC to see that Christ is undoubtably at the core of the Roman Catholic Church and that she is the "masterwork of the mission of the Son and the Spirit in the fullness of time" (721) and "most perfectly embodies the obedience of faith" (148).  In turn, "what the [Roman] Catholic faith believes about Mary is based on what it believes about Christ, and what it teaches about Mary illumines in turn its faith in Christ". (487)  The Pope is not 'preached' about more than Christ and one only has to look either at the Roman Catholic liturgies to see that, or at the various writings by Roman Catholic theologians, Priests, Bishops, Cardinals or Popes (including Cardinal Ratzinger's Dominus Iesus).

It might not be official Roman Catholic teaching, but I think there's a very credible claim that in some areas, popular Marian devotion borders on Mariolatry, especially in Latin America, where Catholicism seems to have been blended with native religions.  I would make the argument that owes more to faulty catechism and evangelism than faulty theology, however.
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« Reply #74 on: June 18, 2008, 10:36:33 AM »

It might not be official Roman Catholic teaching, but I think there's a very credible claim that in some areas, popular Marian devotion borders on Mariolatry, especially in Latin America, where Catholicism seems to have been blended with native religions.  I would make the argument that owes more to faulty catechism and evangelism than faulty theology, however.

I agree, Veniamin, and would add that much of what you have written could be applicable to the Orthodox Church as well.
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« Reply #75 on: June 18, 2008, 11:12:07 AM »

It might not be official Roman Catholic teaching, but I think there's a very credible claim that in some areas, popular Marian devotion borders on Mariolatry, especially in Latin America, where Catholicism seems to have been blended with native religions.  I would make the argument that owes more to faulty catechism and evangelism than faulty theology, however.

Agreed.  Unfortunately, faulty catechism is something that hurts not only Roman Catholicism and Orthodoxy, but the chance at fruitful dialogue between their members.
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« Reply #76 on: June 18, 2008, 03:50:57 PM »

I don't think it's any secret that catechisis in the R.C. Church has been pretty bad for the last 40-50 years.  So it's certainly possible some people may have gotten the wrong information about the position of the Theotokos.

However, to their credit, my parents, though they might be perceived as "liberal Catholics" by some, made sure we got the correct information, for which I'm profoundly grateful. And the only time I ever thought about Mary as a "goddess" was during my flirtation with Wicca & the New Age, way back in the '70's-'80s.  I know better now!  Grin
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« Reply #77 on: July 09, 2008, 07:47:43 AM »

After reading through the first part of this thread (I think the rest has digressed a bit), I think I see the "problem."

To the Eastern Orthodox, there is a great distinction (at least greater than among the Oriental Orthodox) made between the Energies of God and the Essence of God.  But to the Latins, such a distinction does not exist.  To Latins, Being, Action, and Attribute in God are one and the same.  Thus THEOLOGICALLY speaking, Latin devotion to the "Mercy of God" is not different from devotion to God Himself.

I believe Eastern Christians should understand that before criticizing it.  Latins do not believe they are worshipping Mercy as an Attribute distinct from God.  Rather, Latins believe they are worshipping God Who is Mercy itself.

My Latin brethren, have I got that right?

Blessings,
Marduk
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« Reply #78 on: July 09, 2008, 11:58:41 AM »

After reading through the first part of this thread (I think the rest has digressed a bit), I think I see the "problem."

To the Eastern Orthodox, there is a great distinction (at least greater than among the Oriental Orthodox) made between the Energies of God and the Essence of God.  But to the Latins, such a distinction does not exist.  To Latins, Being, Action, and Attribute in God are one and the same.  Thus THEOLOGICALLY speaking, Latin devotion to the "Mercy of God" is not different from devotion to God Himself.

I believe Eastern Christians should understand that before criticizing it.  Latins do not believe they are worshipping Mercy as an Attribute distinct from God.  Rather, Latins believe they are worshipping God Who is Mercy itself.

My Latin brethren, have I got that right?

Blessings,
Marduk

Quite right and very well put!  A devotion to the Divine Mercy is a devotion to God Himself.

In fact, a sister once explained to me that one of the titles of the Mother of God is "Mother of Mercy", because she is the mother of Jesus, who is Mercy personfied.  I always think of that when I think of the Divine Mercy devotion.
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« Reply #79 on: July 09, 2008, 12:22:28 PM »

After reading through the first part of this thread (I think the rest has digressed a bit), I think I see the "problem."

To the Eastern Orthodox, there is a great distinction (at least greater than among the Oriental Orthodox) made between the Energies of God and the Essence of God.  But to the Latins, such a distinction does not exist.  To Latins, Being, Action, and Attribute in God are one and the same.  Thus THEOLOGICALLY speaking, Latin devotion to the "Mercy of God" is not different from devotion to God Himself.

I believe Eastern Christians should understand that before criticizing it.  Latins do not believe they are worshipping Mercy as an Attribute distinct from God.  Rather, Latins believe they are worshipping God Who is Mercy itself.

My Latin brethren, have I got that right?

As I understand it 'Mercy' is a Virtue and as a virtue it is a righteous characteristic of the Divine. When we are virtuous we participate in the Divine Nature so I would conclude that Mercy is an a attribute of the Divine. In the simplicity of the Divine we must see the distinction of attributes as ultimately artificial and a aid for the limits of our mortal minds, no? Is not the distinction of God's Essence and Energies not thought of in the same fashion?  Undecided
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« Reply #80 on: August 22, 2008, 01:19:07 PM »

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Sister Faustina The Divine mercy is doctrine now of the catholic church ,founded on this apparition..why are catholic so brain washed and chase after apparitions and want to believe and practice what these apparitions are telling them to do..they put away what the holy fathers recieved from the apostles once and for all given unto salvation..chase after new visions new revelations ..
either the sacred heart or the divine mercy has surplanted paska the feast of feast the greatest mercy given to man kind...it preaches the first monday for nine consecutive mondays  after easter that guarentees your salvation if you do this or that some one else can fill this blanks thats familiar with what these apparitions preach...SmileyCentral.com" border="0
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« Reply #81 on: August 22, 2008, 01:48:42 PM »

Sister Faustina The Divine mercy is doctrine now of the catholic church ,founded on this apparition..

Well, they would argue the Divine Mercy is a devotion and not a doctrine within the RCC.

either the sacred heart or the divine mercy has surplanted paska the feast of feast the greatest mercy given to man kind...it preaches the first monday for nine consecutive mondays  after easter that guarentees your salvation if you do this or that some one else can fill this blanks thats familiar with what these apparitions preach...


I think you are referring to this:

"In the excess of the mercy of my Heart, I promise you that my all powerful love will grant to all those who will receive Communion on the First Fridays, for nine consecutive months, the grace of final repentance: they will not die in my displeasure, nor without receiving the sacraments; and my Heart will be their secure refuge in that last hour."

Two issues with this "Promise" is that there are different versions of what was exactly said and also many RC clergy have spoken out about how the promises were originally published since they varied greatly from the original and were very "dumbed-down" to the point of altering the meanings. 
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