Author Topic: Proper Tone for Lord I have Cried?  (Read 3686 times)

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Offline SakranMM

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Proper Tone for Lord I have Cried?
« on: November 19, 2007, 03:47:04 PM »
In Byzantine practice, when we do weekday vespers, at the chanting of "Lord I have cried...", do we chant it in the tone of the week, or in the tone of the stichera?  I've seen both practices, and I am just wondering as to which is proper.
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Offline Anastasios

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Re: Proper Tone for Lord I have Cried?
« Reply #1 on: November 19, 2007, 03:52:24 PM »
It depends on what class the saint is. I can't explain how that works beyond that ;)
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Offline SakranMM

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Re: Proper Tone for Lord I have Cried?
« Reply #2 on: November 19, 2007, 03:53:43 PM »
Is there some kind of source you could direct me to?  I'm Antiochian, and familiar with the Nassar "5 Pounder" and the Kazan material, but haven't seen anything in either one regarding this.
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Offline Schultz

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Re: Proper Tone for Lord I have Cried?
« Reply #3 on: November 19, 2007, 03:55:32 PM »
In Byzantine practice, when we do weekday vespers, at the chanting of "Lord I have cried...", do we chant it in the tone of the week, or in the tone of the stichera?  I've seen both practices, and I am just wondering as to which is proper.

In current Ruthenian Catholic usage, we chant the psalm in the tone of the week so long as it's a "normal" weekday.  As Anastasios pointed out, that can change depending on the class of the saint.  I tend to stick to the tone of the week unless it's a Polyeleos saint, then I follow the directions in the Typikon (or at www.metropolitancantorinstitute.org).
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Offline SakranMM

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Re: Proper Tone for Lord I have Cried?
« Reply #4 on: November 19, 2007, 03:57:49 PM »
I just checked the "Reader's Service Horologion" website which reflects Russian practice, and here is what it says:

And, regardless of the rank of the service, we sing “Lord, I have cried” in the tone of the first sticheron appointed

I guess it varies, as everything else, depending on parish or jurisdiction.
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Offline Thomas

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Re: Proper Tone for Lord I have Cried?
« Reply #5 on: November 19, 2007, 03:58:40 PM »
You may wish to check the St. Raphael Clergy Brotherhood of the Diocese of Wichita and Mid-America, on this Web Site you will find various helps for Priests, Deacons and Cantors.  It is located at www.networks-now.net/litresswraoc I believe it will have the information you need.

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Offline Fr. George

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Re: Proper Tone for Lord I have Cried?
« Reply #6 on: November 19, 2007, 04:22:35 PM »
I just checked the "Reader's Service Horologion" website which reflects Russian practice, and here is what it says:

And, regardless of the rank of the service, we sing “Lord, I have cried” in the tone of the first sticheron appointed 

You've hit it right there: Lord, I have cried is always chanted in the mode of the 1st following hymn.

So the question is: which is the first following hymn?  The answer is complex and simple at the same time.  Here are some absolutes that apply:

1. On feasts of the Lord and Theotokos (so-called "Despotic Feasts" in Greek - "Despotic" meaning "Master"), only hymns for the feast are chanted.
2. On Sundays (if not #1), the first hymns are in the Mode of the week.
3. During Great Lent and Holy Week (if not #1 or #2), the hymns of the Triodion are chanted first, followed by the hymns for the Saint.
4. On major Saint days (if not #3), only hymns for the saint are chanted.
5. On "regular" days (of not #4), the first hymns are for the day (of the week) in the Mode of the week, followed by hymns for the Saint (if any).

The last question would then be, what defines a "major" Saint day?  I don't remember the formula the Typikon uses, but it's basically something like "if the Saint has the full set of hymns" including Liti and OT readings.  Someone should look it up and post the exact reference.
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Offline FrChris

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Re: Proper Tone for Lord I have Cried?
« Reply #7 on: November 19, 2007, 05:25:44 PM »
When in doubt, always chant in the half plagal of the sixth tone.  :P

After you do so, no one will ever bother you with another chanting question again!  ;)
« Last Edit: November 19, 2007, 05:26:12 PM by FrChris »
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Offline Schultz

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Re: Proper Tone for Lord I have Cried?
« Reply #8 on: November 19, 2007, 05:58:35 PM »
You've hit it right there: Lord, I have cried is always chanted in the mode of the 1st following hymn.

Aha!  That would explain the "just do it in the tone of the week...normally" answer I got to my question to a ByzCath priest about it. 

Thanks for the list.  It explains ALOT of what I previously didn't get when it came to variations I've encountered.
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Offline PeterTheAleut

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Re: Proper Tone for Lord I have Cried?
« Reply #9 on: November 20, 2007, 01:05:49 AM »
You've hit it right there: Lord, I have cried is always chanted in the mode of the 1st following hymn.
What cleveland has said is totally consistent with Russian practice, as well.
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Offline SakranMM

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Re: Proper Tone for Lord I have Cried?
« Reply #10 on: November 20, 2007, 04:23:59 PM »
"Half-plagal"???  LOL!!!!
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Offline Fr. George

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Re: Proper Tone for Lord I have Cried?
« Reply #11 on: November 20, 2007, 04:52:58 PM »
"Half-plagal"???  LOL!!!!

Father was always creative with some of his half-tones... ;)

No, really, what was truly amazing was how low Father can sing; he was definitely in the "brown note" range :D
"O Cross of Christ, all-holy, thrice-blessed, and life-giving, instrument of the mystical rites of Zion, the holy Altar for the service of our Great Archpriest, the blessing - the weapon - the strength of priests, our pride, our consolation, the light in our hearts, our mind, and our steps"
Met. Meletios of Nikopolis & Preveza, from his ordination.

Offline FrChris

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Re: Proper Tone for Lord I have Cried?
« Reply #12 on: November 20, 2007, 06:36:27 PM »
The longest three years of my experience at Holy Cross...

...was trying to learn the lessons of the first semester Chanting class!  :D
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Offline SakranMM

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Re: Proper Tone for Lord I have Cried?
« Reply #13 on: November 21, 2007, 03:16:45 PM »
I guess half-plagal is ok.  I myself have invented several new tones, ranging from 9 and 1/2 to 11  ;)

Oh, and let's not forget the complete changing of tones in the middle of a hymn for no apparent reason.
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Offline FrChris

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Re: Proper Tone for Lord I have Cried?
« Reply #14 on: November 21, 2007, 03:46:10 PM »

Oh, and let's not forget the complete changing of tones in the middle of a hymn for no apparent reason.

Yeah...here in Birmingham that's known as the 'Fr Chris maneuver'... :)
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Offline Schultz

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Re: Proper Tone for Lord I have Cried?
« Reply #15 on: November 21, 2007, 04:21:14 PM »
The longest three years of my experience at Holy Cross...

...was trying to learn the lessons of the first semester Chanting class!  :D

This makes me leap for joy.  I have been pondering a possible vocation to the diaconate for a bit now but am not the greatest singer.  If one as esteemed as our own Fr Chris can do it, I know I can! ;)
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Offline PeterTheAleut

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Re: Proper Tone for Lord I have Cried?
« Reply #16 on: November 22, 2007, 02:09:35 AM »
Oh, and let's not forget the complete changing of tones in the middle of a hymn for no apparent reason.
I've done that before.  In the L'vov-Bakhmetev (Russian Imperial Court) body of chant, Stichera Tones 1 & 5 sound very similar, so I've more than once started in Tone 1 and accidentally shifted into Tone 5, or vice versa. :-[

What's even more interesting is the Theotokion at "Lord, I Call..." for the Dormition of the Theotokos, which is prescribed to be sung through all 8 tones.
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Offline Ian Lazarus

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Re: Proper Tone for Lord I have Cried?
« Reply #17 on: November 22, 2007, 02:13:31 AM »
This week is Tone 1. 
"For I am With thee, withersoever thou goest"

Joshua 1:9

Offline ozgeorge

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Re: Proper Tone for Lord I have Cried?
« Reply #18 on: November 22, 2007, 07:47:52 AM »
Yeah...here in Birmingham that's known as the 'Fr Chris maneuver'... :)
LOL :D
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Offline Chacci

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Re: Proper Tone for Lord I have Cried?
« Reply #19 on: November 22, 2007, 10:53:28 AM »
I think what I've been taught is consistant with whats been discussed.. but lets see...

For daily Vespers, if there are 6 stichera in the menaion sing the O Lord I Have Cried in the tone of the stichera.  If there are only 3 in the menaion, use the weekly tone for the O Lord I Have Cried with 3 stichera coming from the Octoechos and 3 from the menaion.

Is that consistant?

Offline Fr. George

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Re: Proper Tone for Lord I have Cried?
« Reply #20 on: November 23, 2007, 09:42:33 AM »
I think what I've been taught is consistant with whats been discussed.. but lets see...

For daily Vespers, if there are 6 stichera in the menaion sing the O Lord I Have Cried in the tone of the stichera.  If there are only 3 in the menaion, use the weekly tone for the O Lord I Have Cried with 3 stichera coming from the Octoechos and 3 from the menaion.

Is that consistant? 

Eh, pretty consistent, however: just because there are 6 stichera in the menaion doesn't mean you're to chant all 6.  Sometimes there are 6 stichera, but neither of the saints' feasts (of the date of the month) are to overshadow the daily commemoration (Ochtoechos). 
"O Cross of Christ, all-holy, thrice-blessed, and life-giving, instrument of the mystical rites of Zion, the holy Altar for the service of our Great Archpriest, the blessing - the weapon - the strength of priests, our pride, our consolation, the light in our hearts, our mind, and our steps"
Met. Meletios of Nikopolis & Preveza, from his ordination.

Offline Schultz

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Re: Proper Tone for Lord I have Cried?
« Reply #21 on: November 23, 2007, 01:50:46 PM »
Eh, pretty consistent, however: just because there are 6 stichera in the menaion doesn't mean you're to chant all 6.  Sometimes there are 6 stichera, but neither of the saints' feasts (of the date of the month) are to overshadow the daily commemoration (Ochtoechos). 


I'm assumingf the Typikon trump this general rule, though, right?  I ask because, in the UGCC Typikon (which I am using at present), vespers tonight calls for 3 stichera of St. Catherina and 3 stichera of St. Mercurius along with the Doxastichon of St. Catherine...none from the Octoechos. 
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Offline Fr. George

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Re: Proper Tone for Lord I have Cried?
« Reply #22 on: November 24, 2007, 11:30:15 AM »
I'm assumingf the Typikon trump this general rule, though, right?  I ask because, in the UGCC Typikon (which I am using at present), vespers tonight calls for 3 stichera of St. Catherina and 3 stichera of St. Mercurius along with the Doxastichon of St. Catherine...none from the Octoechos. 

The typikon uses a specific set of rules to determine these things (i.e. there is a pattern) - but theoretically the Typikon is the authority on these sorts of things.  When it doesn't say anything (which is more often than not), then it is useful to know what the standards are; although, typically, those feastdays which will call for a skipping of the Octoechos will actually be spelled out in the typikon.
"O Cross of Christ, all-holy, thrice-blessed, and life-giving, instrument of the mystical rites of Zion, the holy Altar for the service of our Great Archpriest, the blessing - the weapon - the strength of priests, our pride, our consolation, the light in our hearts, our mind, and our steps"
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Offline PeterTheAleut

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Re: Proper Tone for Lord I have Cried?
« Reply #23 on: November 26, 2007, 12:46:53 AM »

I'm assumingf the Typikon trump this general rule, though, right?  I ask because, in the UGCC Typikon (which I am using at present), vespers tonight calls for 3 stichera of St. Catherina and 3 stichera of St. Mercurius along with the Doxastichon of St. Catherine...none from the Octoechos. 
This sounds like a double service, one where two saints are commemorated separately.  As I understand it from my experience of Slavic liturgical practice, stichera from the Octoechos are not sung in a double service except when the service is sung on a Saturday night.  You also see that the troparion of the day is omitted in favor of a troparion to the second saint, don't you?
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Offline arimethea

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Re: Proper Tone for Lord I have Cried?
« Reply #24 on: November 26, 2007, 01:14:47 AM »
You also see that the troparion of the day is omitted in favor of a troparion to the second saint, don't you?
If we are talking about Vespers then the troparion of the day is always for the saint or saints commemorated. The only Troparian that are prescribed are the ones that match the saints that are commemorated at the "Lord I have cried..." You would then match the tone of the last saint's troparian and the day of the week to find the proper Theotokian. There is never a day where everything is from the Parakletike.
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Re: Proper Tone for Lord I have Cried?
« Reply #25 on: November 26, 2007, 01:45:44 AM »
If we are talking about Vespers then the troparion of the day is always for the saint or saints commemorated. The only Troparian that are prescribed are the ones that match the saints that are commemorated at the "Lord I have cried..." You would then match the tone of the last saint's troparian and the day of the week to find the proper Theotokian. There is never a day where everything is from the Parakletike.
In Russian practice, every day of the week has a troparion associated with it.  Monday = The Archangel Michael and the Heavenly Host;  Tuesday = St. John the Forerunner;  Wednesday & Friday = The Holy Cross (O Lord, save Your people...);  Thursday = The Holy Apostles; Saturday = the faithful departed.  This is what I mean by "troparion of the day".  For most daily Vespers services, only one troparion from the Menaion (for the saint) is sung, followed by the troparion of the day, and then the Dismissal Theotokion in the same tone.  For a double service, the second troparion is sung to the second saint and replaces the standard troparion for the day of the week.
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Re: Proper Tone for Lord I have Cried?
« Reply #26 on: November 26, 2007, 04:14:37 AM »
In Russian practice, every day of the week has a troparion associated with it.  Monday = The Archangel Michael and the Heavenly Host;  Tuesday = St. John the Forerunner;  Wednesday & Friday = The Holy Cross (O Lord, save Your people...);  Thursday = The Holy Apostles; Saturday = the faithful departed.  This is what I mean by "troparion of the day".  For most daily Vespers services, only one troparion from the Menaion (for the saint) is sung, followed by the troparion of the day, and then the Dismissal Theotokion in the same tone.  For a double service, the second troparion is sung to the second saint and replaces the standard troparion for the day of the week.
The Greek practice also has these but the only place I have ever seen the troparion used is during the hours. No Typikon that I have ever seen instruct to use these during Vespers.
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Offline Elisha

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Re: Proper Tone for Lord I have Cried?
« Reply #27 on: November 26, 2007, 04:25:57 AM »

What's even more interesting is the Theotokion at "Lord, I Call..." for the Dormition of the Theotokos, which is prescribed to be sung through all 8 tones.

Ditto for Entry of the Lord in the temple.  I have an excellent recording in my PC, in ENGLISH I could attach in Znammeny chant.   But I'll just tease you with the statement that you'll just have to buy the album that will be released probably 1st half of '08.  The latter was already recorded with women and we still need to do the former with men.   ;)

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Re: Proper Tone for Lord I have Cried?
« Reply #28 on: November 26, 2007, 04:28:09 AM »
Ditto for Entry of the Lord in the temple.  I have an excellent recording in my PC, in ENGLISH I could attach in Znammeny chant.   But I'll just tease you with the statement that you'll just have to buy the album that will be released probably 1st half of '08.  The latter was already recorded with women and we still need to do the former with men.   ;)

Actually, the one with the "Entrance..." will be on a soon-to-be-released (just before Christmas) Winter Feasts album by my parish, even though the recording was done with two sopranos outside my parish.