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Author Topic: Lestovka  (Read 5011 times) Average Rating: 0
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Catholig
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« on: November 18, 2007, 02:17:40 AM »

I decided to post this here rather than faith matters, because it seems to be more a practice of the Old Believers, but if a moderator wishes to move it that's fine.

My question is simply does anyone here pray the Lestovka? If so maybe you can tell me (and anyone else) about it, and any personal experiences.

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Starlight
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« Reply #1 on: November 18, 2007, 02:23:10 AM »

Catholig,
I believe this parish may have even an English version of it:
http://www.churchofthenativity.net/
Church of Holy Nativity in Erie, PA - Old Rite, ROCOR.
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Catholig
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« Reply #2 on: November 18, 2007, 01:04:31 PM »

Catholig,
I believe this parish may have even an English version of it:
http://www.churchofthenativity.net/
Church of Holy Nativity in Erie, PA - Old Rite, ROCOR.

Starlight, the lestovka isn't a "prayer", but a prayer rope of sorts. You can view its wikipedia article here.

Catholig
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Heorhij
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« Reply #3 on: November 18, 2007, 01:28:19 PM »

Interesting, the Wiki article says that the Russian term for this prayer rope is "lestovka" or "vervitsa." I have always thought that "vervytsi" (pl.) is a genuine Ukrainian word, whose Russian equivalent is "chetki" (pronounced "chyotki").
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« Reply #4 on: November 19, 2007, 09:49:05 PM »

Starlight, the lestovka isn't a "prayer", but a prayer rope of sorts. You can view its wikipedia article here.

Catholig

Catholig,
Thank you very much. I am sorry that I created confusion.

Interesting, the Wiki article says that the Russian term for this prayer rope is "lestovka" or "vervitsa." I have always thought that "vervytsi" (pl.) is a genuine Ukrainian word, whose Russian equivalent is "chetki" (pronounced "chyotki").

Heorhij,
Yes, actually you are right.
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Alveus Lacuna
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« Reply #5 on: June 25, 2009, 09:24:02 PM »

Does anyone know where I could purchase a Lestovka (Ladder), as still used by Russian Old Believers?





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Alveus Lacuna
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« Reply #6 on: June 25, 2009, 09:46:06 PM »

I found this:

https://securehost85.hrwebservices.net/~cotn//shopping/product_info.php?cPath=26&products_id=219&osCsid=63fc708db14f2cc82ab9dfc2d6281156
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IPC
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« Reply #7 on: June 25, 2009, 09:52:04 PM »

Dear Catholig,

Lestovka is the name of a leather object used for praying, as the one you see above, but there are no prayers named Lestovka.

Orthodox do not use the Lestovka, only the members of a russian cult called Old Believers use it, and some of the communities of Old Believers that joined the Orthodox Church, that are allowed to preserve some of their traditions use it too.

For you to understand this better, keep in mind the communities of Amisch that joined the Catholic Church, women are allowed to use the bonnet when they go to church, but the use of the bonnet is not a Roman Catholic practice.

I understand where your confusion comes from, there is a set of beads that catholics use for prayer, that is called the Rosary, but also there is a set of prayers that are called the Rosary, because they are prayed with the Rosary.

Orthodox use a different object for prayer, it's called chotki in russian, and komboskini in greek, and in other languages it's simply called prayer rope.

The traditional orthodox prayer rope is made of black wool, and it's like a string of tight knots, separated in groups of tens, by a bead made out of wood, at the end of the string, there is a cross made out of the same material.

The size of an orthodox prayer rope is different, the most common are the 33 knots, the 100 knots, and the 300 knots prayer ropes.

 







« Last Edit: June 25, 2009, 09:55:09 PM by IPC » Logged

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« Reply #8 on: June 25, 2009, 10:11:39 PM »


Try the Old Rite usage ROCOR parish in Erie, PA
http://www.churchofthenativity.net/
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Alveus Lacuna
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« Reply #9 on: June 25, 2009, 10:14:02 PM »

Orthodox do not use the Lestovka, only the members of a russian cult called Old Believers use it, and some of the communities of Old Believers that joined the Orthodox Church, that are allowed to preserve some of their traditions use it too.

How is there something wrong with using these?  Were they not used by all of the Russian faithful prior to the introduction of the Greek prayer ropes into Russia in the 18th century?  Certainly there is no specific form of a rope we must use to pray the Jesus Prayer.

One can just as well use a Catholic rosary for keeping track of the Jesus Prayer, or an Islamic misbaha.  How strange that even those in Islam have them numbering to thirty-three...
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« Reply #10 on: June 25, 2009, 10:15:30 PM »

Try the Old Rite usage ROCOR parish in Erie, PA.

Yeah, that link I provided is from their webstore.
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« Reply #11 on: June 25, 2009, 10:59:54 PM »

Quote

Orthodox do not use the Lestovka, only the members of a russian cult called Old Believers use it, and some of the communities of Old Believers that joined the Orthodox Church, that are allowed to preserve some of their traditions use it too.

For you to understand this better, keep in mind the communities of Amisch that joined the Catholic Church, women are allowed to use the bonnet when they go to church, but the use of the bonnet is not a Roman Catholic practice.


Old Believers are a "russian cult"Huh I'm not sure if "cult" is the correct word.

What communites of "Amisch" joined the Catholic Church and are "allowed" to use the bonnet?  Huh I thought the Amish broke away from, not joined, the Catholic Church. The women wear the bonnet because it is a part of their "Ordnung". Basically, like the Old Believers, they have maintained an older form of clothing which at one time was the norm amongst common people-even Catholics.

There is no rule against Orthodox using the Lestovka. I know many ordinary Orthodox folks who own and use them.
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« Reply #12 on: June 25, 2009, 11:18:13 PM »


Orthodox do not use the Lestovka, only the members of a russian cult called Old Believers use it, and some of the communities of Old Believers that joined the Orthodox Church, that are allowed to preserve some of their traditions use it too.

Saint Seraphim used the lestovka (look at his icons) and he was neither heterodox nor an Old Believer.
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Alveus Lacuna
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« Reply #13 on: June 25, 2009, 11:36:35 PM »

Saint Seraphim used the lestovka (look at his icons) and he was neither heterodox nor an Old Believer.

Yes, but he also used a Roman Catholic image of the Theotokos.  Which just shows that one doesn't have to be by the books to be a saint.
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« Reply #14 on: June 27, 2009, 09:29:49 PM »

Dear Alveus Lacuna , I didn't say it was wrong to use it, I said it's not used by the orthodox anymore.

The use of rosary is out of the question, it's not practical, the beads and wires used to hold them together hurt your fingers, and they have symbols coming from the roman catholic teachings that are unacceptable to the Orthodox Church.

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« Reply #15 on: June 27, 2009, 09:45:27 PM »

Dear Rosehip.

The use of the word cult has negative connotations, but it's accurate to use it to describe loose religious groups, specially the small ones like the Old Believers, Amisch, etc.

You may remember there was a tragic incident in the USA, where there was a shooting in a school of an Amisch community. This specific community is an example of an Amisch community that joined the Roman Catholic Church.

You are correct, there are many commonalities between Old Believers and Amisch, that's why I made the comparison. Not only they maintained an older form of clothing, they also mantained an older lifestyle.

In my Church, to use the Lestovka, and the Old Prayer book, you need a specific blessing (permission), and it's given for private use.

The thing is we need to observe an order when it comes to Church Life, and we need to keep the standards of the common orthodox practices, otherwise, we distract or scandalize others, and we disrupt the order.

It's not that it's wrong, it's just that it's not customary.




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« Reply #16 on: June 27, 2009, 09:55:04 PM »

IPC,

The Old Believers and certainly the Amish are NOT cults-they are sects. There is a difference.

And, yes I am aware of the tragedy at the Nickel Mines Amish parochial school in '06, in Pennsylvania, and the incident took place in a community of Amish who, like most Amish, LEFT the RCC several centuries ago(in the 16th century to be exact)-not the other way around. They did not join the RCC. Please do some simple research on the Amish. The Amish are a group of Anabaptists who left the State churches (usually RCC) because of the rampant corruption in the RCC. They sought to live simply, in accordance to Scripture.

There is at least one person at my parish who always carries a lestovka. It doesn't bother or scandalize me the least.
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« Reply #17 on: December 29, 2010, 03:56:12 PM »

IPC,

The Old Believers and certainly the Amish are NOT cults-they are sects. There is a difference.

And, yes I am aware of the tragedy at the Nickel Mines Amish parochial school in '06, in Pennsylvania, and the incident took place in a community of Amish who, like most Amish, LEFT the RCC several centuries ago(in the 16th century to be exact)-not the other way around. They did not join the RCC. Please do some simple research on the Amish. The Amish are a group of Anabaptists who left the State churches (usually RCC) because of the rampant corruption in the RCC. They sought to live simply, in accordance to Scripture.

There is at least one person at my parish who always carries a lestovka. It doesn't bother or scandalize me the least.

I carry and use a lestovka. So does my parish priest. We are a mainstream new calendar parish, so it's unusual, but not scandalous.
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