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Author Topic: Why do protestants reject Orthodoxy?  (Read 39522 times) Average Rating: 0
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Carico
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« Reply #225 on: October 24, 2008, 08:26:47 PM »

^ That may be your belief, but this thread is about why Protestants reject Orthodoxy, not Catholicism.

Orthodoxy is another word for tradition which Jesus condemns, especially when one breaks the commandments for the sake of their tradition like the Catholics do when they omit Exodus 20:4 from the Ten Commandments...as if they can ever erase God's Word.  Roll Eyes It's blasphemy to think they can.
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« Reply #226 on: October 24, 2008, 08:29:12 PM »

^ That may be your belief, but this thread is about why Protestants reject Orthodoxy, not Catholicism.

Orthodoxy is another word for tradition which Jesus condemns, especially when one breaks the commandments for the sake of their tradition like the Catholics do when they omit Exodus 20:4 from the Ten Commandments...as if they can ever erase God's Word.  Roll Eyes It's blasphemy to think they can.

We wrote the Bible, and it is in our language (Greek) so we will tell you what it means, not the other way around  Tongue
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« Reply #227 on: October 24, 2008, 08:34:01 PM »

Quote
We wrote the Bible, and it is in our language (Greek) so we will tell you what it means, not the other way around  Tongue

Sorry, but God wrote the bible as John tells us in John 1:1-2. And since John, Matthew, Peter, etc. witnessed Christ's life and words and you didn't, then I'll go with them instead of you.  Wink So since you don't know where to find God's word, then how can you worship a God you don't know?  Shocked Or do you make up a God of your imagination?  If so, then you are worshiping an imaginary God which makes him unreal. Sorry.  Wink
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« Reply #228 on: October 24, 2008, 08:35:17 PM »

Pay attention everyone; Carico has something she/he'd like to say to us. Roll Eyes
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« Reply #229 on: October 24, 2008, 08:36:49 PM »

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We wrote the Bible, and it is in our language (Greek) so we will tell you what it means, not the other way around  Tongue

Sorry, but God wrote the bible as John tells us in John 1:1-2. And since John, Matthew, Peter, etc. witnessed Christ's life and words and you didn't, then I'll go with them instead of you.  Wink So since you don't know where to find God's word, then how can you worship a God you don't know?  Shocked Or do you make up a God of your imagination?  If so, then you are worshiping an imaginary God which makes him unreal. Sorry.  Wink

If God wrote it, why is John telling us that in the book God supposedly wrote?
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« Reply #230 on: October 24, 2008, 08:38:27 PM »

Quote
We wrote the Bible, and it is in our language (Greek) so we will tell you what it means, not the other way around  Tongue

Sorry, but God wrote the bible as John tells us in John 1:1-2.

That is not even what that verse says! lol

Quote
And since John, Matthew, Peter, etc. witnessed Christ's life and words and you didn't, then I'll go with them instead of you.  Wink

I agree, which is why I left Protestantism and became Orthodox, because the Apostles were Orthodox! And the Bible they wrote in the context of the Church was Orthodox.

Quote
So since you don't know where to find God's word,

The Word of God, which according to John 1 is not the Bible but rather Christ, is someone I have known for awhile now...

Quote
then how can you worship a God you don't know?  Shocked Or do you make up a God of your imagination?  If so, then you are worshiping an imaginary God which makes him unreal. Sorry.  Wink

How do you know that the book you think is God's word is in fact God's word? (Hint, II Timothy 3:16 does not prove that the Bible is God's Word Smiley)
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« Reply #231 on: October 24, 2008, 08:41:34 PM »

Quote
Quote from: Carico on Today at 10:34:01 AM
Quote
We wrote the Bible, and it is in our language (Greek) so we will tell you what it means, not the other way around  Tongue

Sorry, but God wrote the bible as John tells us in John 1:1-2.

That is not even what that verse says! lol

Yeah even Protestants don't actually take this verse to mean that anyway.
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« Reply #232 on: October 24, 2008, 08:42:01 PM »

Quote
We wrote the Bible, and it is in our language (Greek) so we will tell you what it means, not the other way around  Tongue

Sorry, but God wrote the bible as John tells us in John 1:1-2. And since John, Matthew, Peter, etc. witnessed Christ's life and words and you didn't, then I'll go with them instead of you.  Wink So since you don't know where to find God's word, then how can you worship a God you don't know?  Shocked Or do you make up a God of your imagination?  If so, then you are worshiping an imaginary God which makes him unreal. Sorry.  Wink

If God wrote it, why is John telling us that in the book God supposedly wrote?

Do you know that the Holy Spirit spoke through the prophets, disciples, and the apostles? Or not? Huh If not, then I'm afraid you won't know where to find God's word and thus can't know who God is. You also then are saying that Jesus didn't speak the Word of God if you claim that his words in the bible are not from God.  So I'm afraid you're fresh out of luck when you die unless you find God. Smiley
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« Reply #233 on: October 24, 2008, 08:45:46 PM »



Do you know that the Holy Spirit spoke through the prophets, disciples, and the apostles? Or not? Huh If not, then I'm afraid you won't know where to find God's word and thus can't know who God is. You also then are saying that Jesus didn't speak the Word of God if you claim that his words in the bible are not from God.  So I'm afraid you're fresh out of luck when you die unless you find God. Smiley

1) Is the Holy Spirit God? If so or if not, why do you believe this?

2) Why do you believe the Bible is God's word?

3) Why would Jesus speak the Word of God when Jesus IS the Word of God?
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« Reply #234 on: October 24, 2008, 08:51:25 PM »



Do you know that the Holy Spirit spoke through the prophets, disciples, and the apostles? Or not? Huh If not, then I'm afraid you won't know where to find God's word and thus can't know who God is. You also then are saying that Jesus didn't speak the Word of God if you claim that his words in the bible are not from God.  So I'm afraid you're fresh out of luck when you die unless you find God. Smiley

1) Is the Holy Spirit God? If so or if not, why do you believe this?

2) Why do you believe the Bible is God's word?

3) Why would Jesus speak the Word of God when Jesus IS the Word of God?

Since Jesus is Lord and he doesn't lie, Jesus said; "God is Spirit." He also said that God the Father, God the Son and God the Holy Spirit are all one, which I assume you believe as well if you adopt the trinity. That means, as John 1:1-2 says, that since the Word comes from the Holy Spirit, it also comes from God the Father and God the Son. So the Word is God and the Word is God the Son as well. Therefore the author of the bible wasn't people, but God Himself.


 Do you read the words of Christ? Or don't you believe that Jesus is Lord?  Huh
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« Reply #235 on: October 24, 2008, 08:54:51 PM »

^ No, The Word (Logos; Christ) does not come from the Holy Spirit. He was begotten of God the Father. And by the way, Protestants believe that too.
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« Reply #236 on: October 24, 2008, 08:57:38 PM »



Do you know that the Holy Spirit spoke through the prophets, disciples, and the apostles? Or not? Huh If not, then I'm afraid you won't know where to find God's word and thus can't know who God is. You also then are saying that Jesus didn't speak the Word of God if you claim that his words in the bible are not from God.  So I'm afraid you're fresh out of luck when you die unless you find God. Smiley

1) Is the Holy Spirit God? If so or if not, why do you believe this?

2) Why do you believe the Bible is God's word?

3) Why would Jesus speak the Word of God when Jesus IS the Word of God?

Since Jesus is Lord and he doesn't lie, Jesus said; "God is Spirit." He also said that God the Father, God the Son and God the Holy Spirit are all one, which I assume you believe as well if you adopt the trinity. That means, as John 1:1-2 says, that since the Word comes from the Holy Spirit, it also comes from God the Father and God the Son. So the Word is God and the Word is God the Son as well. Therefore the author of the bible wasn't people, but God Himself.


 Do you read the words of Christ? Or don't you believe that Jesus is Lord?  Huh
First, take the time to learn what we Orthodox REALLY believe, THEN come back and question us.  Right now, your interrogation shows no knowledge of Orthodox beliefs, and--I would venture to say--very little of Roman Catholic beliefs, too.
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« Reply #237 on: October 24, 2008, 09:02:56 PM »

^ No, The Word (Logos; Christ) does not come from the Holy Spirit. He was begotten of God the Father. And by the way, Protestants believe that too.
Since God the Father, God the Son and God the Holy Spirit are all one and you claim that the bible doesn't come from the Holy Spirit, then it can't come from God the Father and God the Son either. So everything you say contradicts everything else you say. And since the truth holds no contradictions, then your words can't be the truth.  Wink

So where does the Word come from according to you? Satan? or the fallible minds of men which then makes the bible fallible and not trustworthy. Then you're back to not knowing where to find the words of God .
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« Reply #238 on: October 24, 2008, 09:04:40 PM »

Time to kick him into "Moderated" status, please, please.
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« Reply #239 on: October 24, 2008, 09:07:10 PM »

Time to kick him into "Moderated" status, please, please.

I think so since I've caught you in many contradictions.  Wink  But calling a mod won't make your contradictions go away. Sorry.  Smiley
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« Reply #240 on: October 24, 2008, 09:08:04 PM »

I am pretty sure everyone here can handle this guy.
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« Reply #241 on: October 24, 2008, 09:10:48 PM »

^ No, The Word (Logos; Christ) does not come from the Holy Spirit. He was begotten of God the Father. And by the way, Protestants believe that too.
Since God the Father, God the Son and God the Holy Spirit are all one and you claim that the bible doesn't come from the Holy Spirit, then it can't come from God the Father and God the Son either. So everything you say contradicts everything else you say. And since the truth holds no contradictions, then your words can't be the truth.  Wink

So where does the Word come from according to you? Satan? or the fallible minds of men which then makes the bible fallible and not trustworthy. Then you're back to not knowing where to find the words of God .

Ok brother just as a summary:

1) John 1:1-2 is actually refering to Jesus who is the eternal Logos (Greek word for "word") this is the protestant interpretation and the interpretation of all mainline churches.

2) You have no idea how offensive it is to question whether we believe in the Trinity because we had Matyrs in our church who died for this very fact.

3) We do believe in bible infallibility but not in a way you currently understand

4) Our beliefs have foundational differences which you should research instead of assuming were automatically heretical becasue we don't line up with your theological beliefs and interpretation of the bible which is only as old as you are, as opposed to the Orthodox interpretation of the bible which is believe it or not some as old as the apostles.
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« Reply #242 on: October 24, 2008, 09:11:23 PM »

First, take the time to learn what we Orthodox REALLY believe, THEN come back and question us.  Right now, your interrogation shows no knowledge of Orthodox beliefs, and--I would venture to say--very little of Roman Catholic beliefs, too.
I would say very little of Protestant beliefs as well.

you claim that the bible doesn't come from the Holy Spirit,
I made no such claim. I said that Christ does not come from the Holy Spirit. Look, you don't even bother to read the answers we give to you. The best thing you can do is to visit an Orthodox church with a mind that wants to learn, then ask honest questions. You don't have to believe as we do, but this sort of interrogation isn't going to help you find out.
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« Reply #243 on: October 24, 2008, 09:16:53 PM »

I am pretty sure everyone here can handle this guy.

Certainly. You've got time to babysit tonight, be my guest. He's a trollette.
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« Reply #244 on: October 24, 2008, 09:19:50 PM »

Good point.
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« Reply #245 on: October 24, 2008, 09:21:55 PM »

Quote
2) You have no idea how offensive it is to question whether we believe in the Trinity because we had Matyrs in our church who died for this very fact.

It's your contradictions that make your statements offensive. So sorry, but you cannot claim that the bible is the Word of God and at the same time claim that they didn't come from the Holy Spirit since God the Father, God the Son and God the Holy Spirit are all one. So until you make non-contradictory statements, your beliefs contradict the Word of God. How you can do that especially when you think so highly of the martyrs who died for the Word of God is what is offensive.  Embarrassed
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« Reply #246 on: October 24, 2008, 09:23:37 PM »

As we have said to you several times already: We do not claim that the Bible is the Word of God. We claim that Christ is the Word of God. Until you start actually reading what we write, you're never going to know the answers to your questions. But you don't really have any questions, do you?
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« Reply #247 on: October 24, 2008, 09:26:19 PM »



Since Jesus is Lord and he doesn't lie, Jesus said; "God is Spirit."

Would you mind pointing out the verses you are using to support this?

Quote
He also said that God the Father, God the Son and God the Holy Spirit are all one, which I assume you believe as well if you adopt the trinity.

Since the Orthodox Church was the Church that formulated the Trinity doctrine at the Council of Nicaea in 325 AD, yeah we accept the Trinity.

Where does Jesus say that the Father and the Holy Spirit and Himself are one, in one place?

Quote
That means, as John 1:1-2 says, that since the Word comes from the Holy Spirit, it also comes from God the Father and God the Son.

That is not what John 1:1-2 says.

Quote
So the Word is God and the Word is God the Son as well.

This is true and I agree.

Quote
Therefore the author of the bible wasn't people, but God Himself.

But that is not what the verse is talking about. It is not talking about the Bible. It is talking about the Logos (Christ, the Son, the Word of God).


Quote
Do you read the words of Christ? Or don't you believe that Jesus is Lord?  Huh

Of course I read the words of Christ. But they don't say what you are thinking they are saying, at least as far as what you have written here.
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« Reply #248 on: October 24, 2008, 09:30:00 PM »

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But that is not what the verse is talking about. It is not talking about the Bible. It is talking about the Logos (Christ, the Son, the Word of God).

Oh really? then the words of Christ in the bible aren't the word of God? Is that correct?  Huh If so, then where do you find the words of Christ? in your imagination? If so, then you worship an imaginary Jesus.  Wink So sorry, but every way you look at it, you contradict yourself. So try again.  Wink
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« Reply #249 on: October 24, 2008, 09:33:04 PM »

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But that is not what the verse is talking about. It is not talking about the Bible. It is talking about the Logos (Christ, the Son, the Word of God).

Oh really? then the words of Christ in the bible aren't the word of God? Is that correct? 
That is correct. Christ is the Word of God, not the Bible.

Quote
If so, then where do you find the words of Christ?
In the Bible. The Bible is the words of the Word of God.
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« Reply #250 on: October 24, 2008, 09:34:14 PM »

That means, as John 1:1-2 says, that since the Word comes from the Holy Spirit, it also comes from God the Father and God the Son.

Where does John 1:1-2 say that the Word comes from the Holy Spirit, it says:

'εν αρχη ην ο λογος και ο λογος ην προς τον θεον και θεος ην ο λογος ουτος ην εν αρχη προς τον θεον'

I may just be loosing it...but I don't exactly see 'αγια πνευματι' anywhere in those verses, they just don't talk about the Holy Spirit.

But more importantly...please, give me some indication that you have ANY grasp of the concept of the Λογος in middle or neo-platonic thought.
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« Reply #251 on: October 24, 2008, 09:39:07 PM »

Quote
But that is not what the verse is talking about. It is not talking about the Bible. It is talking about the Logos (Christ, the Son, the Word of God).

Oh really? then the words of Christ in the bible aren't the word of God? Is that correct? 

The Word of God = Christ, not a book.  Christ did not come to have a book written about him; he came and established a Church which is clear from the New Testament.  In that liturgical assembly, certain writings were selected as being reflective of the teaching about Christ the worshipers had heard from the Apostles.  These writings were later known as the New Testament and supplemented the Scriptures (which were considered the Old Testament).  Other writings were floating around but were rejected for being unorthodox.

Christ's words are indeed found in the Bible. Along with the words of the other Apostles, and the words of the prophets, etc.  Of course, these utterances have their inspiration in the Logos (the Word) of God who is Christ.  This Christ is the same Christ who appeared to Adam in the Garden of Eden and Moses in the burning Bush.


Quote
Huh If so, then where do you find the words of Christ? in your imagination?

No need to be rude.


Quote
If so, then you worship an imaginary Jesus.  Wink So sorry, but every way you look at it, you contradict yourself. So try again.  Wink

Again, no need to be rude.

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« Reply #252 on: October 24, 2008, 09:49:29 PM »

Carico Dear,

You need to realize that many, if not most, of the people who actively post here are former Protestants or Evangelicals who became Orthodox.  They have already dealt with many of the assertions you are putting forth and were not convinced by them.

As a kid, I went to a Presbyterian Sunday school.  It was actually a good experience and I learned the Bible pretty well.  However, I was never quite comfortable with a few things, one of which was how glory that belonged to Christ alone was given to the Bible.  It was not uncommon to hear comments like:

The Bible is the Way.
The Bible is the Truth.
The Bible is the Word.
Our church is based on the Bible.

These are all things we should say only of Christ.  Only Christ is the Way and the Truth.  Only Christ is the Word.  Our Church must be based on Christ.

I am only saying these things because I want to warn you away from the possibility of setting up the Bible as a false God.  I think many people have made that mistake.


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« Reply #253 on: October 25, 2008, 04:45:11 AM »

The discussion is WHY DO PROTESTANTS REJECT ORTHODOXY?

To address the nub of the question, surely it is for exactly the same two reasons as Orthodox reject Protestantism:

•   there are some things missing which they cherish
•   there are some things present which they disbelieve.

You know better than I do what those additional or missing features are that make you decide against Protestantism. The other way round:

•   The additional things in Orthodoxy which we set aside are the ones in Orthodox Tradition (doctrine and practice) which are not in the Bible. This is not an attempt to debate ‘sola scriptura’ against churchly Tradition; it is no more than an answer to the question Why? It does not address which ‘side’ is right or wrong.
•   The missing things in Orthodoxy which are cherished in Evangelicalism are (I believe) two principal ones:

1) The teaching of justification by faith as understood by Evangelicals; again, I am not here debating whether it is right or not (obviously, I do believe it), merely answering the question Why?

2) The assurance of one’s acceptance with God, one’s adoption as his child, in short of salvation: the inner witness of the Spirit. Please correct me if I am wrong, of course: whether I am right or not on Orthodoxy’s view of assurance, the PERCEPTION we Evangelicals have is that it is not a part of usual Orthodox teaching and experience.


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« Reply #254 on: October 25, 2008, 08:19:07 AM »

2) The assurance of one’s acceptance with God, one’s adoption as his child, in short of salvation: the inner witness of the Spirit. Please correct me if I am wrong, of course: whether I am right or not on Orthodoxy’s view of assurance, the PERCEPTION we Evangelicals have is that it is not a part of usual Orthodox teaching and experience.

Brother I can answer the second part. This is definately part of the christian experience and obviously then apart of the Orthodoxy. Personally I believe our sonship is manifested in our relationship with God and growing in it every day and this is our salvation as opposed to the judicial and legalistic understanding of sonship espoused by our evangelical brethren.
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« Reply #255 on: October 25, 2008, 08:26:21 AM »

That means, as John 1:1-2 says, that since the Word comes from the Holy Spirit, it also comes from God the Father and God the Son.

Where does John 1:1-2 say that the Word comes from the Holy Spirit, it says:

'εν αρχη ην ο λογος και ο λογος ην προς τον θεον και θεος ην ο λογος ουτος ην εν αρχη προς τον θεον'

I may just be loosing it...but I don't exactly see 'αγια πνευματι' anywhere in those verses, they just don't talk about the Holy Spirit.

But more importantly...please, give me some indication that you have ANY grasp of the concept of the Λογος in middle or neo-platonic thought.

Or, for that matter, Biblical, Johannine or Patristic thought.

Btw, nice to see that not all those years in the seminary were totally waster, Greeki.
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« Reply #256 on: October 25, 2008, 08:34:29 AM »

Quote
But that is not what the verse is talking about. It is not talking about the Bible. It is talking about the Logos (Christ, the Son, the Word of God).

Oh really? then the words of Christ in the bible aren't the word of God? Is that correct?  Huh If so, then where do you find the words of Christ? in your imagination? If so, then you worship an imaginary Jesus.  Wink So sorry, but every way you look at it, you contradict yourself. So try again.  Wink

Sure they are the words of Christ, like Luke 10:16: "The person who listens to you listens to Me, and the person who rejects you rejects Me. The person who rejects Me rejects the One who sent Me."  Since He said that to the Apostles, whom you never met, to whom are you listening?
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« Reply #257 on: October 25, 2008, 08:37:07 AM »

As we have said to you several times already: We do not claim that the Bible is the Word of God. We claim that Christ is the Word of God. Until you start actually reading what we write, you're never going to know the answers to your questions. But you don't really have any questions, do you?

Actually, we claim that Christ is God the Word.
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« Reply #258 on: October 25, 2008, 08:55:29 AM »

Quote
We wrote the Bible, and it is in our language (Greek) so we will tell you what it means, not the other way around  Tongue

Sorry, but God wrote the bible as John tells us in John 1:1-2. And since John, Matthew, Peter, etc. witnessed Christ's life and words and you didn't, then I'll go with them instead of you.

That's just your problem, Carico: you CAN'T go with them, as you never witnessed their life and words, unless you are going to claim that John, Matthew and Peter appeared to you a la Joseph Smith.

John, Matthew, Peter and the rest of the Apostles appointed bishops in their stead (e.g. Titus 1:5), whose lines continue to this day.  We know them, and thus John, Matthew and Peter.  And it is their Churches, i.e. the Orthodox Church, that put together and preserved their writings that make up the Bible.  If you don't trust our judgment in matters of Faith, how can you trust that we got all that transmission of the Scritptures right?

As Luke 10:16 states "The person who listens to you listens to Me, and the person who rejects you rejects Me. The person who rejects Me rejects the One who sent Me" you are going AGAINST, not with, SS John, Matthew and Peter.

Quote
  Wink So since you don't know where to find God's word, then how can you worship a God you don't know?  Shocked

Explain how you get the Bible, except through us.

Quote
Or do you make up a God of your imagination?  If so, then you are worshiping an imaginary God which makes him unreal. Sorry.  Wink

You follow an interpretation of the Bible imagined just over a century ago. You have to explain the prior nearly two millenia.  Sorry.


Fixed quote tags  -PtA
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« Reply #259 on: October 25, 2008, 09:00:16 AM »

First of all, David, thank you for bringing us back on topic. I'll try to help.

1) The teaching of justification by faith as understood by Evangelicals; again, I am not here debating whether it is right or not (obviously, I do believe it), merely answering the question Why?
Evangelicals do often misunderstand this. We do believe in justification by faith, and though it is not exactly as evangelicals do, it's pretty close. We believe that salvation is a gift of God, that Christ's Death and Resurrection provided us the way to be saved. We believe that no works we could ever do will earn us salvation, and that the only way to be saved is through faith in Christ Jesus. Sound a lot like the evangelicals? There's a reason for it. The only way we differ is in our definition of faith. Whereas to evangelicals, faith is merely a belief, we claim that faith is the ability to receive God. Faith is a condition of the heart, not of the mind. Works will not save, but works are the evidence of faith. Where there are no good works, there is not likely to be faith either. I think evangelicals see our emphasis on living the Christian life and misinterpret it to mean that we are trying to earn salvation.

2) The assurance of one’s acceptance with God, one’s adoption as his child, in short of salvation: the inner witness of the Spirit. Please correct me if I am wrong, of course: whether I am right or not on Orthodoxy’s view of assurance, the PERCEPTION we Evangelicals have is that it is not a part of usual Orthodox teaching and experience.
No, we do have assurance of salvation, but again, it's not as the evangelicals understand it. It's not that we are not certain we will be saved, but that we are not convinced that one prayer, one decision, is going to save us. Our assurances of salvation are confession (I John 1:8-10), repentance (II Cor 7:9-10), and forgiveness (Mark 11:25-26). If we do these things, we will be saved. Salvation is not a one-time decision; it is a lifestyle. It is a good start to decide to life a godly life, but unless one actually follows through on that decision, ultimately it is meaningless. So it's not that we are not assured, but that our assurances are not words but actions.
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« Reply #260 on: October 25, 2008, 09:42:06 AM »

Reply to ytterbiumanalyst

Er.. are you Evangelical or am I Orthodox?! I agree with everything you say. Maybe we're both CHRISTIAN!

Though I do have an American Baptist friend who seems to take the view you refer to: "convinced that one prayer, one decision, is going to save us". I don't think many (if any) Evangelicals here in Wales and England would believe that.
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« Reply #261 on: October 25, 2008, 09:54:40 AM »

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Er.. are you Evangelical or am I Orthodox?! I agree with everything you say. Maybe we're both CHRISTIAN!

Though I do have an American Baptist friend who seems to take the view you refer to: "convinced that one prayer, one decision, is going to save us". I don't think many (if any) Evangelicals here in Wales and England would believe that.

See we aren't that scary brother Cheesy
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« Reply #262 on: October 25, 2008, 11:06:10 AM »

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Er.. are you Evangelical or am I Orthodox?! I agree with everything you say. Maybe we're both CHRISTIAN!
I think so. Smiley

Quote
Though I do have an American Baptist friend who seems to take the view you refer to: "convinced that one prayer, one decision, is going to save us". I don't think many (if any) Evangelicals here in Wales and England would believe that.
Good. Yes, my experience with the evangelical movement is limited to the United States. It's good to hear things are different in other places.
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« Reply #263 on: October 25, 2008, 12:26:20 PM »

First of all, David, thank you for bringing us back on topic. I'll try to help.

1) The teaching of justification by faith as understood by Evangelicals; again, I am not here debating whether it is right or not (obviously, I do believe it), merely answering the question Why?
Evangelicals do often misunderstand this. We do believe in justification by faith, and though it is not exactly as evangelicals do, it's pretty close. We believe that salvation is a gift of God, that Christ's Death and Resurrection provided us the way to be saved. We believe that no works we could ever do will earn us salvation, and that the only way to be saved is through faith in Christ Jesus. Sound a lot like the evangelicals? There's a reason for it. The only way we differ is in our definition of faith. Whereas to evangelicals, faith is merely a belief, we claim that faith is the ability to receive God. Faith is a condition of the heart, not of the mind. Works will not save, but works are the evidence of faith. Where there are no good works, there is not likely to be faith either. I think evangelicals see our emphasis on living the Christian life and misinterpret it to mean that we are trying to earn salvation.

2) The assurance of one’s acceptance with God, one’s adoption as his child, in short of salvation: the inner witness of the Spirit. Please correct me if I am wrong, of course: whether I am right or not on Orthodoxy’s view of assurance, the PERCEPTION we Evangelicals have is that it is not a part of usual Orthodox teaching and experience.
No, we do have assurance of salvation, but again, it's not as the evangelicals understand it. It's not that we are not certain we will be saved, but that we are not convinced that one prayer, one decision, is going to save us. Our assurances of salvation are confession (I John 1:8-10), repentance (II Cor 7:9-10), and forgiveness (Mark 11:25-26). If we do these things, we will be saved. Salvation is not a one-time decision; it is a lifestyle. It is a good start to decide to life a godly life, but unless one actually follows through on that decision, ultimately it is meaningless. So it's not that we are not assured, but that our assurances are not words but actions.

Ytter, those two explanations are among the best I've ever heard regarding the Catholic/Orthodox understanding of faith and justification and assurance of salvation.
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« Reply #264 on: October 25, 2008, 01:03:33 PM »

But let us consider Evangelicalism at its best, as it only fair also of Orthodoxy. Do Evangelical movements have a record of drunkards made sober, wife-beaters made caring husbands, thieves made honest, idlers made into trustworthy workers, blasphemers made into men who respect and love the Saviour? Have foul mouths been cleansed and filled with warm and lasting praise to Jesus Christ? Has society been changed for the better because of the leaven of Evangelicalism? Is their worship - at its best - Christ-centred? Does it glorify God as creator and sustainer of the world? Is the Holy Spirit honoured in the Trinity? Is it a religion of love for God and love for mankind? Does it do good?<<<


The same good results can be claimed by your local Buddhist group, Christian Scientists and The Ethical Society.

However, I do agree that the power of the Scriptures, even alone, can be good and wholesome and salvic if it is not too warped by various heresies.

I was at a funeral this weekend at the "Church of the Brethren" waaaay out in the country. Very minimalist. The Gospel Readings and testimony of various members of the congregation were impressive and all to the good . What they lack is everything else the actual Apostolic Church offers. We use the Hospital metaphor a lot but it was on my mind while I was there. Every medicine should be used to heal us spiritually and transform us into the likeness of Christ.
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« Reply #265 on: October 25, 2008, 02:12:01 PM »

.... What they lack is everything else the actual Apostolic Church offers. We use the Hospital metaphor a lot but it was on my mind while I was there. Every medicine should be used to heal us spiritually and transform us into the likeness of Christ.

In another thread, I wrote about walking out of a support group when one Pentecostal woman (whose group has seemingly infiltrated the support group) gave her personal testimony about finding Jesus, which seemingly helped cure her of thyroid cancer, and talked about hearing voices and referring to herself as "wacko" in the next breath.  I guess I was upset when the Pentecostal group brought a self-admitted drug addict into the support group while the facillitator did not bother (at the last meeting) to announce in advance the presence of said group.
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« Reply #266 on: October 25, 2008, 03:48:34 PM »

FROM TUESDAYSDCHILD "Taking the bread and wine... "...Clearly, your Baptists are not Baptist in the same sense as my Baptists were Baptist

Ah! Suddenly occurred to me (days later!) that you are probably referring at least partly to the practice prevalent among American Evangelicals (including Baptists) of not drinking  alcohol at all - being teetotal. That's pretty much a dead issue here in England and Wales, though of course teetotal Baptists still exist and are respected for their convictions (providing they live up to them privately and don't try to force them on others: similarly, of course, those who drink would be utterly discourteous to try to persuade teetotallers to indulge. In our church here in Wrexham we co-exist quite happily and the matter never crops up.). Even my American Baptist friends raise no objection to the wine at dinner when they come to my home; though at their home we get (and only expect) fruit juice to wash down their glorious Mexican dinners. Two Evangelicals having earnest spiritual conversation, sharing fellowship in Christ, over a pint of ale in a pub is no rare thing here.

That's hardly central to "Why do Protestants reject Orthodoxy?" Nonetheless, it might be peripherally relevant to this 'thread': for it does seem to me, here among the drizzle and cloud of Wales, that quite a lot of what you good American Orthodox post about Evangelicals is actually not about Evangelicalism, but about its culturally American manifestation. In  fact, quite a bit of what you write is strikingly similar (dare I admit it?) to what we English Evangelicals say - or at least think! - about our American Evangelical brothers and sisters.

Vice versa, as I have written before, my proximity to Orthodoxy has been only in Kosova and southern Albania - and minimally Greece - and maybe some things I think are not strictly appropriate to Orthodoxy in the USA.
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« Reply #267 on: October 25, 2008, 04:56:25 PM »

David, may I recommend you contact Fr. Gregory Hallam?? I know he is not that close to you (well he is fairly close by Canadian standards haha) but with no local Orthodox presence, he is your best bet I think. His website was the start of my initial push into Orthodoxy. Great resoource!

orthodox (at) clara (dot) net

http://www.orthodox.clara.net/Resources/resources3.htm

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« Reply #268 on: October 25, 2008, 04:57:03 PM »

As we have said to you several times already: We do not claim that the Bible is the Word of God. We claim that Christ is the Word of God. Until you start actually reading what we write, you're never going to know the answers to your questions. But you don't really have any questions, do you?

Actually, we claim that Christ is God the Word.

And we claim he is the Word of God, in the O Monogenes.
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« Reply #269 on: October 25, 2008, 05:01:10 PM »

Do you know that the Holy Spirit spoke through the prophets, disciples, and the apostles? Or not? Huh
"We believe in the Holy Spirit ... who spoke by the prophets."  -from the Nicene Creed, which Orthodox Christians read during every Divine Liturgy

Do you not also know that the same apostle, St. Paul, who spoke thus of the Scriptures to St. Timothy, "All Scripture is given by inspiration of God..." (2 Timothy 3:16), also spoke this of the Church in his former epistle to the same St. Timothy: "... the house of God, which is the Church of the living God, the pillar and ground of the truth" (1 Timothy 3:15)?
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