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Quinault
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« on: November 16, 2007, 02:24:12 PM »

I don't know if this belongs here or not. If it doesn't please move it.

I have heard it said that if you attend DL everyday for a year (I think I was told a year, correct me if I am wrong) you will hear the entire bible.

What about all the geneologies? That would be both exhausting and quite dry.

The Song of Songs? SOS is beautiful, but as of now, I can't picture it in the context of the DL.



What purpose do the geneologies serve? I just left protestantism. And while at my last church the Pastor did a few sermons thru various geneologies. (He preached thru a book of the bible at a time, and as such he couldn't avoid the geneologies when he came to them). Although I will say it was a great deal of reading, then cracking jokes and not a great deal of real content to my mind. He also did a sermon series thru SOS and quite boastfully speaks about how the birth rate at the church 10mths later went up.
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ytterbiumanalyst
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« Reply #1 on: November 16, 2007, 07:56:51 PM »

That's not quite true. If you go to all of the services (not just DL, but Matins, Vespers, Hours, special services, everything), you'll hear the whole Bible in a year.
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« Reply #2 on: November 16, 2007, 08:00:56 PM »

Hello,

In the Catholic Latin Rite, it is setup currently to go through approx. the entire Bible every three years. And that is if you go to Mass and pray the Liturgy of the Hours everyday. Plus, in the Liturgy of the Hours, you'll hear from the writings of a good number of Saints.
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« Reply #3 on: November 17, 2007, 12:34:41 AM »

That's not quite true. If you go to all of the services (not just DL, but Matins, Vespers, Hours, special services, everything), you'll hear the whole Bible in a year.
Except for the Book of Revelation. This is the one book of the Bible from which no reading is taken for any Orthodox Service, basically because it wasn't fully accepted into the Canon until quite late.
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« Reply #4 on: November 17, 2007, 12:54:25 AM »

So SOS and the geneologies are included? Wow!
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« Reply #5 on: November 17, 2007, 03:07:27 AM »

Keep in mind this is the entire monastic divine office that is being spoken of.  So in the neighborhood of six plus hours per day.  Even in a parish that has Vespers, Matins and Liturgy for Sundays and Festal days throughout the year will likely omit much of the readings from Matins.  The only place where I have come across this actually being practiced is Athonite monasteries - and there I was thankful for genealogies since they're easy to understand! 
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ytterbiumanalyst
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« Reply #6 on: November 17, 2007, 07:53:27 AM »

Except for the Book of Revelation. This is the one book of the Bible from which no reading is taken for any Orthodox Service, basically because it wasn't fully accepted into the Canon until quite late.
Yes, you're right. I forget that one even exists sometimes.

Wow, when I was a Protestant I never thought I'd write that. Smiley
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« Reply #7 on: November 18, 2007, 10:48:27 AM »

We even have a Sunday Gospel dedicated to the Genealogy list, SUNDAY OF THE ANCESTORS ( the Sunday before the Nativity of Christ) in the celebration of the Genealogy of Christ (Matthew 1:1-25). So yes the Genealogies are read and apparently were seen as very important to the Gospel writers as I believe there are two listed one in Matthew and the other in Luke. They obviously had a purpose of  tying Christ to  Israel and the prophecies of the Messiah.

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« Reply #8 on: November 18, 2007, 06:55:22 PM »

So SOS and the geneologies are included? Wow!

I know this is for Orthodox liturgy but someone mentioned Latin Catholic somewere above. The Song of Songs was a very popular text for the Masses and Divine Office among the Latin especially concerned with the ever-Virgin Mary. Well, some of the parts are a bit, um, sensitive but mediaevel commentators were experts are interpreting them in a different manner. And in any case the texts used are not overtly of this nature- they are concerned with purity and love and the like.  "You are all fair" or "I to my beloved and my beloved to me" or "I am the rose of Sharon, and the lily of the valleys"

The genealogies were also linked with the Virgin and were read as the Gospel at her Nativity and her Conception (for the later, some years after the RC declared the dogma of "Immaculate", it was shifted to the evening before) . In modern Latin usage it is also appointed for Advent and the Nativity of Christ and an option for various feasts of the Blessed Virgin and in one case, St. Joseph. 


 
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« Reply #9 on: November 18, 2007, 09:05:03 PM »

Except for the Book of Revelation. This is the one book of the Bible from which no reading is taken for any Orthodox Service, basically because it wasn't fully accepted into the Canon until quite late.

It's used in the Western Rite lectionary.
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« Reply #10 on: November 19, 2007, 10:52:18 AM »

That's not quite true. If you go to all of the services (not just DL, but Matins, Vespers, Hours, special services, everything), you'll hear the whole Bible in a year.

I think cleveland would know the best, but I really don't think the monastic offices go through the WHOLE Bible. Certainly the entire NT minus the Revelation of St. John; the Psalter many times over; and then a number of key OT books in the Torah, the Prophets & the Histories.

But I believe many books are omitted. I, for one, have never seen a monastic office in which any part of the anagignoskomena was read -- except, of course, for the Prayer of Manasseh.
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« Reply #11 on: November 19, 2007, 02:45:37 PM »

Except for the Book of Revelation. This is the one book of the Bible from which no reading is taken for any Orthodox Service, basically because it wasn't fully accepted into the Canon until quite late.

In the Coptic tradition they make up for this by staying up the whole night on Holy Thursday(?), reading through the entire book in a single sitting.
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« Reply #12 on: November 19, 2007, 08:06:01 PM »

In the Coptic tradition they make up for this by staying up the whole night on Holy Thursday(?), reading through the entire book in a single sitting.
In our parish, we read through the Psalms that night several times, as many as we can.
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« Reply #13 on: November 19, 2007, 09:50:52 PM »

Hello,

Again, in the Catholic Church, if a person goes to Mass everyday over the course of three years (Sundays are on a three year cycle, but weekdays are on a two year cycle), they will hear a little bit of every book in the Bible except 1 Chronicles, Judith, and Obadiah. Of course, if you pray the Liturgy of the Hours (particularly Matins) then you will hear a lot more of the Bible, and even some extra-biblical texts (Church Fathers, Saints, etc.). I'd have to check and see if the three missing books from the Mass are in the Liturgy of the Hours.

Very little is said of the Song of Songs at Mass (but I do seem to recall several long readings in the Liturgy of the Hours) and almost 1/3 of Revelations is said at Mass (and more in the Liturgy of the Hours).
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« Reply #14 on: November 20, 2007, 01:02:28 AM »

... almost 1/3 of Revelations is said at Mass (and more in the Liturgy of the Hours).
Interesting that you do this...  Because of our more negative history with the genre of apocalyptic literature--the Eastern Church as a whole rejected the Apocalypse of St. John for a long time before finally submitting to its inclusion in the New Testament canon, in part because of her conflict with the Montanists and their literature--you will hear virtually nothing read from Revelation in Orthodox liturgical services.
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« Reply #15 on: November 20, 2007, 01:09:53 AM »

Interesting that you do this...  Because of our more negative history with the genre of apocalyptic literature--the Eastern Church as a whole rejected the Apocalypse of St. John for a long time before finally submitting to its inclusion in the New Testament canon, in part because of her conflict with the Montanists and their literature--you will hear virtually nothing read from Revelation in Orthodox liturgical services.

But on the flip side we read from some of the various OT apocalyptic books, and hold them in higher esteem than the "western" churches (Daniel comes immediately to mind).
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« Reply #16 on: November 20, 2007, 01:16:02 AM »

But on the flip side we read from some of the various OT apocalyptic books, and hold them in higher esteem than the "western" churches (Daniel comes immediately to mind).
I am aware of a couple of long readings from the Prophecy of Daniel in the Vesperal Liturgy of Holy Saturday.  The "Canticle of the Three Holy Youths" has its foundation in Daniel, iirc.
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« Reply #17 on: November 20, 2007, 10:50:50 AM »

The Western Divine Office (in the Roman usage) goes through virtually the entire Bible through the course of the year (the occurrent scripture at matins is occasionally pre-empted by a feast).

Quote
But on the flip side we read from some of the various OT apocalyptic books, and hold them in higher esteem than the "western" churches (Daniel comes immediately to mind).

How do you figure? The Benedicite is sung every Sunday and feast day at lauds, and this past Sunday in fact Daniel was begun and is appointed to be read all this week at matins.
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« Reply #18 on: November 20, 2007, 10:55:05 AM »

Hello,

But on the flip side we read from some of the various OT apocalyptic books, and hold them in higher esteem than the "western" churches (Daniel comes immediately to mind).
How much of Daniel do the Orthodox hear? Currently, at Mass a Catholic will hear 1/3 of Daniel during the course of the lectionary cycle.

We hear more during the Liturgy of the Hours - in fact the "Song of the Three Children" is one of the major canticles used. A Catholic will read about 1/4 of Daniel every year in the Liturgy of the Hours. Whether any of these verses overlap those read at Mass - I don't know.

In addition to these, there are selections from 1 Chronicles and Judith, and additional readings from Song of Songs - but still no Obadiah. Poor, poor Obadiah, left out in the cold.  Cry
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« Reply #19 on: October 04, 2009, 12:55:42 AM »

To get back to the original questions,

I have heard it said that if you attend DL everyday for a year (I think I was told a year, correct me if I am wrong) you will hear the entire bible.

IF you attended all services, as do monastics you would hear the entire Old and New Testament in one year.

What about all the geneologies? That would be both exhausting and quite dry. 

It is important in the context of salvation, the fulfillment of prophecy, and the role of the Messiah.  It is important to remember, because without these understandings of our dogma the Truth of what Christ is and taught are lost.

The geneaologies are read in context of the birth of Christ, and so are read at the time of the Nativity. 

The Song of Songs? SOS is beautiful, but as of now, I can't picture it in the context of the DL.

The singer is Christ, the beloved the Church.

What purpose do the geneologies serve?

Consider who wrote the geneaologies and when.  First, the OT geneaologies are written by Hebrews who are very concerned with the hereditary nature of the Levitic priesthood.  Geneaologies trace Hebrew decent from Abraham, and from Abraham to Moses and the entry into the promised land.  When the Hebrews are taken by captivity to Babylon, the geneaologies continue to connect these displaced people with their covenant with God.  To this day, the oldest geneaologies in the world are those maintained by Jews since the time of the Babylonian captivity.  And, in Genesis God tells the snake that enmity will exit between the woman and you, and that her descendant will crush you with her heel.  In this instance, God is revealing that eventually, in time, someone descended from Adam and Eve will restore humanity to the image and likeness of God that it had before the Fall -- in other words, the plan of salvation is revealed and promised.

When Christ is born, the geneaolgies are included by Matthew, who is primarily writing to the Jews, and by Luke.  The purpose of the geneaologies in these contexts are to show that the Messiah is the fulfillment of the promise of Genesis.  Elsewhere the prophets tell us the Christ will be decended from the Davidic royal house -- so he has kingship, and from a Levitic house -- so he is high priest.  The geneaologies show to Hebrews, not Gentiles, the fulfillment of salvific prophecy AND the status of the Christ, King and High Priest.

As a child, I read and re-read the OT, but until I was instructed by my priest, I missed the entire beauty of the OT anticipation of the Christ, salvation, the origin of the mysteries, and prophecy.  I think it is very difficult for Protestants to grasp the fullness of the OT because through centuries they are so distanced from the continuity between the OT, NT and Orthodoxy.  If your parish does not have an OT Bible Study, you might want to ask if the priest can host one.  It took our parish eight years to get through the OT, but WOW!  we sure learned a lot! It has illuminated the NT because I understand so much more.   I'm sure I missed a lot, too. I'd do it again, if I got the chance.
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