Teachings against modern technology; an Old-believer-doctrine thread

[Ebor]

This thread was split from the "Did Jesus ever smile?" thread, at the following point:

http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,13335.msg185003.html#msg185003

- Cleveland, Global Moderator

Now that you have returned to OC.net, Mr. Alden, do you have any support or answers to some of the questions that people asked you in other threads when you were hear last? 

Would you please be so good as to explain why using shampoo is a bad thing?  Also this ties in with your previous assertion that bathing was bad, yet you did not explain why nor what you mean by bathing (sea bathing? showers? hot water?) nor give any supporting evidence from other sources besides your own authority.  Would you please explain and give citations to back up your opinion?  Thank you.

Ebor

[prodromas]

Now that you have returned to OC.net, Mr. Alden, do you have any support or answers to some of the questions that people asked you in other threads when you were hear last? 

Would you please be so good as to explain why using shampoo is a bad thing?  Also this ties in with your previous assertion that bathing was bad, yet you did not explain why nor what you mean by bathing (sea bathing? showers? hot water?) nor give any supporting evidence from other sources besides your own authority.  Would you please explain and give citations to back up your opinion?  Thank you.

Ebor

Ebor please don't ask silly questions:
Jesus didn't use shampoo therefore we don't use shampoo.

How can you be so blind?

[Sloga]

Ebor please don't ask silly questions:
Jesus didn't use shampoo therefore we don't use shampoo.

How can you be so blind?

Jesus didn't use internet, why are you using it? 

[EofK]

Jesus didn't use internet, why are you using it? 

Touché!   

[prodromas]

Ebor please don't ask silly questions:
Jesus didn't use shampoo therefore we don't use shampoo.

How can you be so blind?

Does everyone know I was being sarcastic?

[Hopeful Faithful]

Jesus didn't use internet, why are you using it? 

I am working on escaping as we speak.

No winking on my part here, I assure you.

Modern plumbing is antichrist due to the petrolueum chemicals and man-made electricity used in its production.

Ten page postings are not desired here, so I will simply say that there are more than enough answers for those serious enough. For a long time the bells have been ringing more than clearly enough, if we choose to hear.

My Petroleum Warning Page
http://MyMartyrdom.com/petro.htm

My Man-made Electricity Page
http://MyMartyrdom.com/manmade.htm


With high hopes for all of us, but with today being worse than Sodom do not expect much from the status quo.

[prodromas]

This is a serious question hopeful faithful. Are you serious in your opinions or are you conveying some form of sarcasm I seriously don't know. I mean I am the chief of hypocrites (I take the lords name in vain, I swear, have deviant thoughts etc) but your style of living that you speak of means you can't live in civilization, I mean you have a website that speaks against the internet? this is Irony in its fullest its like those Che Chuvera T-Shirts. I respect all religions as equal but what the old rite does is so legalistic that it is the kind of thing Jesus spoke against with the Pharisee's worrying to much about the little t traditions and this is exactly what the old rites do they try to elevate little t tradition to capital T Tradition.

[ozgeorge]

I am working on escaping as we speak.

You "were working on escaping" months ago. Please...don't let us hold you.

Modern plumbing is antichrist due to the petrolueum chemicals and man-made electricity used in its production.

Of course. I was saying so myself to Napoleon Bonaparte only yesterday.

[prodromas]

Hopeful Faithful you have an article about how photography is sinful because of staring yet have an old believer photo on the hyper link? Are you serious?

[prodromas]

I saved a much higher resolution of this photo from Hubble which really has the details of all the surrounding galaxies.
Pretty amazingly sinful here, star gazing that is. (This is on your website) Hopeful faithful I did a presentation on Irony in my linguistics class but you should have told me about your website.

[Veniamin]

Everyone, I'm finishing up the script for a stage production about people who rail against the evils of modern techonology and the like, using said technology to do so.  At this point, I'm ready to begin casting.  Does anyone want to audition for a part in Hypocrisy:  The Musical?

[prodromas]

Everyone, I'm finishing up the script for a stage production about people who rail against the evils of modern techonology and the like, using said technology to do so.  At this point, I'm ready to begin casting.  Does anyone want to audition for a part in Hypocrisy:  The Musical?

HAHAHA ill take lead role thank you.

[Νεκτάριος]

The ironic part of all of this is that modern literature in Russia owes a bit of a debt to these sectarians.  Avvakum's autobiography was one the first works to use vernacular Russian and really brought individualism to Russian literary thought. 
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Avvakum

[Veniamin]

HAHAHA ill take lead role thank you.

Okay, I'll need you to sing this (to the tune of Battle Hymn of the Republic):

Mine eyes have seen the glory of the dimming of the screen
I'll throw out all my software and I'll wipe my hard drive clean
I'll tell the unbelievers that they are mighty unclean
And the 'net will send them to hell!!!

(Chorus)
Just as soon as I reply to my latest thread
Just as soon as I reply to my latest thread
Just as soon as I reply to my latest thread
I'm shutting my internet down!

[prodromas]

Okay, I'll need you to sing this (to the tune of Battle Hymn of the Republic):

Mine eyes have seen the glory of the dimming of the screen
I'll throw out all my software and I'll wipe my hard drive clean
I'll tell the unbelievers that they are mighty unclean
And the 'net will send them to hell!!!

(Chorus)
Just as soon as I reply to my latest thread
Just as soon as I reply to my latest thread
Just as soon as I reply to my latest thread
I'm shutting my internet down!

HASHDGASKLDGHAHAHAHHAHAHA  funniest song ever

[Athanasios]

Hello,

Wow! No bathing or shampooing. I hope at least then we could use as many nose plugs as we need. 


Didn't Christ tell us that when we fast not to be like the Pharisees who show it off to the world, but that when we fast that we should anoint our heads, wash our faces and be not unkempt. Hard to do what the Lord orders without soap and water.

[Ebor]

Ebor please don't ask silly questions:
Jesus didn't use shampoo therefore we don't use shampoo.

How can you be so blind?

 

I caught the humour here. 

Ebor (not affiliated in any way with "Walmart".  Walmart owns emoticons?  Colour me dubious)

(

[Ebor]

I am working on escaping as we speak.

May one ask *how* or what you are doing to "escape"?

Modern plumbing is antichrist due to the petrolueum chemicals and man-made electricity used in its production.

So earlier plumbing such as with lead pipes (ancient Rome for example) or the sewers and baths of Harappa and Mohenjo-Daro in what is now Pakistan and thought to be around 4000 years old are not "antichrist"?  Or for that matter it just occurred to me that the Jews have the "Mikva", a ritual bath which is part of the practice of observant Jews to this day.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mikvah
http://www.mohenjodaro.net/indusbuildings.html

Ten page postings are not desired here, so I will simply say that there are more than enough answers for those serious enough.

If a posting as something to say, or answers questions that others have asked then such would be desired here.  On the other hand, it seems unlikely that 10 pages would be required to answer people's questions. 

You say there are "more then enough answers for those serious enough".  Well, I am serious in my questions, yet you are unable or unwilling to answer them.  And having read your pages, the answers to my questions are not there, either. 

My Petroleum Warning Page
http://MyMartyrdom.com/petro.htm

This is a page of bald assertions, personal opinions, lack of historical knowledge and  misunderstood or misused quotes from other people. This passage for instance:

"People do not realize all the things we would have to do without if we were willing to obey God for once and get rid of all our sinful petroleum habits. Basically modern medical treatments would be thrown out the window, including vision lenses."

Now this isn't clear as to whether Mr. Alden thinks that vision problems are caused by the use of petroleum or that glasses are made with it.  Well, lenses have been ground from glass and sent into wire or horn frames without a drop of petroleum involved that I know of.  One wonders just what procedures are classified as "modern medical treatments" and *why* they would be 'thrown out the window'. 

Then there is this passage:

"Before his presidency Woodrow Wilson worked to abolish automobiles in 1906. While president of Princeton University he said, “Nothing has spread socialistic feeling in this country more than use of the automobile...They are a picture of arrogance and wealth, with all its independence and carelessness”."

I immediately noticed the elipses and from Mr. Alden's earlier postings of supposed "quotes" that were to support his opinions I knew that he would, in fact, re-write a sentence to make it say something that the original author did not intend.  I found the passage.  It and much of the other bits about automobiles is from this article from "American Heritage Magazine" volume 54, issue 3, July 2003.
http://www.americanheritage.com/articles/magazine/ah/2003/3/2003_3_44.shtml

Here is the passage from the article:

“Nothing has spread socialistic feeling in this country more than use of the automobile,” pronounced one prominent educator, author, and social critic in 1906—Woodrow Wilson, then the president of Princeton University. “They are a picture of arrogance and wealth, with all its independence and carelessness.”

Notice the words.  Unless Mr. Alden can provide another source for the quote, he is taking it and others out of context of this article. He either does not understand what the writer was really saying or he is twisting other's words to his own (incorrect) interpretation as (false) support for his ideas.

There is nothing in the article about Woodrow Wilson working "to abolish" the automobile.  It is based on a book about the making of the Model T Ford as a car for ordinary people.  Earlier paragraphs are about how the early cars were only available to rich people, the working classes could not expect to ever own one, and the drivers were a danger to pedestrians and other vehicles. That is the Context of the Wilson quote which is about social resentment and unrest at ostentatious displays and dangerous driving. Then Henry Ford made the Model T which was amazingly cheap for the time.  The rest of the article is about how the car came to be accepted and enjoyed by millions. 

Other bits from this page:

"Sulfur is derived from petroleum and is often used to burn incense"

"Often"?  by whom and where?  I've never come across any sulfur in incense, for one thing it has a strong smell of its own.  Some Sulfur is now taken from petroleum, but that is a recent process; however it is found naturally around volcanos and hot springs and in mineral form
http://periodic.lanl.gov/elements/16.html

"Gunpowder is also made with petroleum products, something which is unnecessary, dangerous, noisy, smelly and messy."

Gun powder is made from Sulfur (not a 'petroleum product' but an element), charcoal (wood heated without oxygen) and potassium nitrate (aka "Saltpetre/peter" a precipitate from such I grant smelly things as manure and urine).  So the source of gun powder is not correct and while some of the adjectives are correct (it can be dangerous if misused, firing a gun can be noisy) those are his opinions and declaring it "unnecessary" is not a belief held by many such as those who hunt for some of their food.

My Man-made Electricity Page
http://MyMartyrdom.com/manmade.htm

Just an example or two from this page

"There is also the Seventh Wonder of the Ancient World, The Pharos (Lighthouse) of Alexandria. It was said to be seen from 300 miles away and could destroy boats 30 miles away."

This is part of an assertion that the ancient Egyptians had electrical circuit diagrams in paintings (where can we see these?  What source for this information?)

We did the math. To be visible 300 miles away the Pharos would have had to have been about 11 miles high (taking into account that the Earth's surface is curved).  The information I found such as at a site about light houses http://www.harbourlights.com/catalog/2003/hl_pharos.htm
is that it was about 384 feet high and could been seen at a distance of around 35 miles.  That is the first error. 

Next is associating the Pharos with electicity at all.  Its light was from fire and mirrors (metal mirrors not glass).  The legend that it could destroy boats is just that.  For information on how a professor and students at MIT set things on fire with reflected light see here: http://web.mit.edu/2.009/www//experiments/deathray/10_Mythbusters.html

Then there's this
" There is a story about President Eisenhower and the first computers. He walked into the room housing their flashing lights with cogs and wheels inside them, along with the green monitors. The president asked the computers, “Is there a God?” For a good while there were noises of everything working and just as the president turned to ask Vice President Nixon to get a technician the computers answer was given, “Now there is!”.

Leaving aside that there is not a citation as a source for this "story" and the anachronism of "first computers" (ENIAC? it used tubes, not 'cogs and wheels'; The Mark 1A Navy fire control? it had gears and hand-cranks but no monitor;  The Difference Engine? no, way too early) and "green monitors" (we called them "Terminals" back in the Dim Times) I know where this comes from because I read it long ago when I was first reading science fiction.  It's a very short Science Fiction story by Fredric Brown titled "Answer" from 1954.  The complete text can be read here: http://www.alteich.com/oldsite/answer.htm  it's *very* short.

So this is either taking Mr. Brown's story or it got misremembered/turned into an "Urban Legend".

There is more on both of these pages which raises the eyebrows and caused me to wonder again if Mr. Alden is really serious in his statements, or is making a parody site for amusement.

Ebor

[Robert]

I have to ask....

Why is Chess forbidden??

[TinaG]

As much as we're all beating down Hopeful Faithful for his extreme and whacked out ideas (sorry Hopeful Faithful just pointing out the obvious), aren't there some of us who harbor fantasies of living the simple life?  I think as technology has distanced us from the natural world and the slower pace of an agricultural lifestyle, we all get a little desperate or nostalgic for something we don't have and don't know how to go back to.  Yuppies loooveee the Amish; urbanites bought old farms & mountain acreage during the back-to-the-land movement of the 60's & 70's; there are hundreds of micro-farm and simple living websites, etc... 

I've always wanted to live this kind of life, but my plan includes homemade soap, solar powered high speed internet access and environmentally friendly indoor plumbing (though there's nothing that would teach you humility like an outhouse on a cold winter morning)

BTW, Hopeful Faithful, do you mind if I ask if you have children?  Do you think this kind of severe, unsmiling, doom and gloom lifestyle is healthy for children?  What kind of parenting principals fit in with this outlook and if you do have kids, how have these ideas panned out in your own experience?

[EofK]

Okay, I'll need you to sing this (to the tune of Battle Hymn of the Republic):

Mine eyes have seen the glory of the dimming of the screen
I'll throw out all my software and I'll wipe my hard drive clean
I'll tell the unbelievers that they are mighty unclean
And the 'net will send them to hell!!!

(Chorus)
Just as soon as I reply to my latest thread
Just as soon as I reply to my latest thread
Just as soon as I reply to my latest thread
I'm shutting my internet down!

 
Love it.  I nominate this for a Tony already. 

[EofK]

On a serious note, I do agree that our society uses way too much petroleum but that's more a problem of wastefulness and lack of good stewardship than it being inherently evil. 

[Schultz]

Mr. Alden's rants re: the "evils of the world" make me think of that most misquoted phrase of St. Paul, "For the love of money is the root of all evil" (1 Tim 6:10).  How many times have we heard the first four words of that verse removed from the rest of it by people who are missing the point?  

It's not electricty that's evil, it's our misuse and abuse of it that is so.

[Αριστοκλής]

Very good, Schultz, otherwise Mr. Alden will have to explain to us the striking similarity of his pictured donkey saddle to a Peterbilt or a Kenworth.

[Ebor]

As much as we're all beating down Hopeful Faithful for his extreme and whacked out ideas (sorry Hopeful Faithful just pointing out the obvious), aren't there some of us who harbor fantasies of living the simple life?  I think as technology has distanced us from the natural world and the slower pace of an agricultural lifestyle, we all get a little desperate or nostalgic for something we don't have and don't know how to go back to.  Yuppies loooveee the Amish; urbanites bought old farms & mountain acreage during the back-to-the-land movement of the 60's & 70's; there are hundreds of micro-farm and simple living websites, etc... 

I apologize for giving an impression of "beating down" HopefulFaithful/Mr. Alden.  I asked him questions in the past which he did not answer but instead did not come here for some weeks. I ask questions now that he has come back and again he does not answer them nor explain things that he as stated as a kind of 'fiat' (Bathing is not allowed, nor shampoo nor chess for example. By whom?  When?  On what does he base these assertions beyond his own authority?)  Meanwhile he posts or puts on his website things that are not true, or are his *own* ideas presented as though they are universal truth.  He misuses other people's words to try and show that his opinions/personal ideas are true and have support, which they do not.  Taking other people's writing and changing it to fit one's own assertions is, pardon me, lying about what they really wrote and meant.  Why should something that is supposed to be a Universal Truth and Dictate from God require falsehood to support it?

I pointed out some of the errors on his cited pages so that persons who read him can know that just saying something does not mean that it is true. (and repeating oneself doesn't make it true either.)  I try to provide links to show that I am not speaking on my own authority, that the real information, other people's writings and true science/history etc do not say what HF says they do.

I do understand what you write about simpler living and agree with that it is a good thing, but then I grew up on Montana, granted in what we call a city, but it is still slower, less crowded and different from large urban areas.  But Mr. Alden is not advocating simplying per se but dictating what he thinks is the Only Right Way to live a godly life.

I've always wanted to live this kind of life, but my plan includes homemade soap, solar powered high speed internet access and environmentally friendly indoor plumbing (though there's nothing that would teach you humility like an outhouse on a cold winter morning)

   Plumbing is a good thing, it has helped public health immensely.  Reading history, the open sewers and general filth of earlier centuries were a health hazard and having pure clean water to drink has stemmed many illnesses.  Soap/cleaning materials has been around for milennia, too. Alternative energy sources are good too.  (Montana has several 'wind farms' for example: clean, and with all the wind we have pretty reliable)

BTW, Hopeful Faithful, do you mind if I ask if you have children?  Do you think this kind of severe, unsmiling, doom and gloom lifestyle is healthy for children?  What kind of parenting principals fit in with this outlook and if you do have kids, how have these ideas panned out in your own experience?

Considering that his statement against "modern medical treatments" (which I would like to understand what ones he means and why) and that just over a century ago large numbers of children did not live to see their 5th birthday due to disease and infections, such a lifestyle would not be 'healthy'.  And another point that just occurred to me is the matter of food and water: farming is not something that just happens and not all kinds of foods (vegies, fruits) can grown everywhere so there's the matter of nutrition.

Just some thoughts.

Ebor

[pathofsolitude]

Hello guys. I respect Mr Alden. I think he is a decent guy who hates the world and wants to be a genuine friend of the divinity. So far I think he is better off than 99.9% of "Christians." Who cares if he thinks shampoo, gasoline, photography, plumbing or whatever is bad? It doesnt seem to me that he is condemning anyone for using these things. If he wants to be a narrowminded ultra John the Baptist type then let him be. At least he's not a Roman Catholic or a Protestant. Why dont you guys go pick a fit with someone who is against the Lord Jesus?

Note of clarification- my understanding of society as evil has absolutely nothing to do with the things that Mr Alden is talking about. Just so you know.

SIDE NOTE TO THE MODERATORS- thank you for taking me off "mute" mode. I think you fellows are running a very fair operation on OCnet. Cheers!


 

[Veniamin]

At least he's not a Roman Catholic or a Protestant. Why dont you guys go pick a fit with someone who is against the Lord Jesus?

So now RCs and Protestants are enemies of the Lord?  Next you'll be carrying signs that say "God hates fags" like those Westboro clowns.

[prodromas]

Hello guys. I respect Mr Alden. I think he is a decent guy who hates the world and wants to be a genuine friend of the divinity. So far I think he is better off than 99.9% of "Christians." Who cares if he thinks shampoo, gasoline, photography, plumbing or whatever is bad? It doesnt seem to me that he is condemning anyone for using these things. If he wants to be a narrowminded ultra John the Baptist type then let him be. At least he's not a Roman Catholic or a Protestant. Why dont you guys go pick a fit with someone who is against the Lord Jesus?

Note of clarification- my understanding of society as evil has absolutely nothing to do with the things that Mr Alden is talking about. Just so you know.

SIDE NOTE TO THE MODERATORS- thank you for taking me off "mute" mode. I think you fellows are running a very fair operation on OCnet. Cheers!


 

Narrow minded? Are you sure your not playing the part of a particular pot?

[Ebor]

So far I think he is better off than 99.9% of "Christians."

Well, since I suspect that you don't personally *know* "99.9% of Christians" nor Mr. Alden (though that is possible that you have met him in RL) there may not be many facts behind this assessment.

Who cares if he thinks shampoo, gasoline, photography, plumbing or whatever is bad? It doesnt seem to me that he is condemning anyone for using these things.

If you read some of his posts here or the pages at his website he *does* condemn their use by others. His particular bete noirs are, if his writings are sincere rather then an elaborate parody, supposed to apply to everyone.  Therefore no Christian should use shampoo or bathe, or use electricity etc.  He makes these declarations without any authority beyond his own word.  When he does give a citation or quote, there has been a pattern of changing other people's words and/or taking them out of context to make them appear to support his pet opinions.  I have found a number of cases where he did this.  To change and use other people's words that way is not being truthful, it is lying about the other people's thoughts and ideas and opinions. 

If a idea is true, why should it have lies for support?

There then are the flat-out mistakes and errors in some of his writing.  Just because something is in print or on the 'net doesn't make it True nor is it necessarily false either.  That is where discernment and study and supporting information come in. 

If he wants to be a narrowminded ultra John the Baptist type then let him be. At least he's not a Roman Catholic or a Protestant. Why dont you guys go pick a fit with someone who is against the Lord Jesus?

Ah, but this is not a case of people going to his site and harassing *him*.  He has come here, posted statements and opinions and assertions of things as fact, yet he does not back them up.  He has made statements against canonical EO.  He ignores questions and requests for explanations and backup materials to his opinions. He repeats himself as though the mere repetition will make something true. 

<ignoring the shots against other Christians>

Ebor

[pathofsolitude]

Hi Ebor. I must say that you give the most detailed and exacting posts that I have ever seen on any forum. You can take that as a compliment I guess.

In regards to our friend Mr Alden-
I think his program is more funny than harmful. Actually I would be willing to bet most of my money that he is actually playing a joke on us. He says that gasoline and photography are evil. Yet his profile image is a picture of him driving a van! Why would he pick this particular picture otherwise? Understand that I'm not trying to attack him here like other people are doing. People like you, Ebor, are taking him seriously. I am only pointing out whats going on.

Is he explicitly condemning people to hell? I havent seen it yet. You guys think that simply recognizing that people are sinners is a violation of Jesus' command to not judge. The Lord was using a teaching device called a "progressive overstatement" which was not meant to be taken literally.

Anyways Old Believers are Christians. I respect them more than most "Christians" that I have met. Lets use our time wisely.

[prodromas]

Pathofsolitude as a young man who thoroughly enjoy pranking people ala Borat style (I make wild ethnic allegation in my predominately white town to people who think I am being serious and out of not trying to offend me they concede to my requests trust me its funnier than it sounds) and I whole heartedly agree that if Mr. Alden's site is a parody I respect this man beyond belief but my BS detector doesn't seem to be reading anything which worries me that he is actually genuine.

[Ebor]

Hi Ebor. I must say that you give the most detailed and exacting posts that I have ever seen on any forum. You can take that as a compliment I guess.

Thank you. I try. 

(Perhaps it is not surprising that my "What Star Trek Character are You? Quiz result was "Spock/Data"  )

In regards to our friend Mr Alden-
I think his program is more funny than harmful. Actually I would be willing to bet most of my money that he is actually playing a joke on us. He says that gasoline and photography are evil. Yet his profile image is a picture of him driving a van! Why would he pick this particular picture otherwise? Understand that I'm not trying to attack him here like other people are doing. People like you, Ebor, are taking him seriously. I am only pointing out whats going on.

There has been some speculation that he is, indeed, doing a parody site and in his postings.  But the truth is not known.  And if it is indeed parody, one wonders at the misuse and misquoting of others in supposed support of the "parody" opinions.    I would also submit that disagreeing with someone and asking them to support their statements is not the same thing as "attacking" them.

Is he explicitly condemning people to hell? I havent seen it yet.

Have you visited his site "MyMartyrdom" and read all of his pages?

Ebor

[Entscheidungsproblem]

I have to ask....

Why is Chess forbidden??

It has been banned in Eastern and South Eastern Europe, especially Russia, a bunch of times throughout history.  A few times in Western Europe too.  I think the reasoning was it was a heathen game, others said it brought on the plague, etc.

[ytterbiumanalyst]

Better Chess than Grand Theft Auto. At least the former gets the kids to use their minds.

[prodromas]

Better Chess than Grand Theft Auto. At least the former gets the kids to use their minds.

Mr.Y im sorry but I disagree I'm sure I will be in a position of stealing a car in my life as opposed to making a logical decision 

[ytterbiumanalyst]

Nice. 

[Ebor]

Mr.Y im sorry but I disagree I'm sure I will be in a position of stealing a car in my life as opposed to making a logical decision 

  No, no! that is not logical!   

Says one of the forum 'vulcans', but in that case I probably shouldn't be using any emoticons. 

Ebor

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