Author Topic: Ustashe's genocide against Orthodox Serbs  (Read 867 times)

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Offline Jonathan Gress

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Re: Ustashe's genocide against Orthodox Serbs
« Reply #90 on: Today at 12:55:28 AM »
Funny you should mention this. Because as a matter of fact, I hesitate to do any of that, and I thank you very much for your wise and sound counsel. And from such a young man, too! I'm impressed.

Haven't been in communion since '92 anywhere at all. Just a spectator and observer, watching and listening, very closely and attentively.

And I'm doing just fine, relatively speaking. Maybe I'm in communion with the Angels. Who knows?
Is there such thing outside of Holy Communion?

Is that a rhetorical question?
No.

Am I the only one not surprised that mdamyers got banned from that other forum?

Offline PeterTheAleut

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Re: Ustashe's genocide against Orthodox Serbs
« Reply #91 on: Today at 12:57:46 AM »
Funny you should mention this. Because as a matter of fact, I hesitate to do any of that, and I thank you very much for your wise and sound counsel. And from such a young man, too! I'm impressed.

Haven't been in communion since '92 anywhere at all. Just a spectator and observer, watching and listening, very closely and attentively.

And I'm doing just fine, relatively speaking. Maybe I'm in communion with the Angels. Who knows?
Is there such thing outside of Holy Communion?

Is that a rhetorical question?
No.

Am I the only one not surprised that mdamyers got banned from that other forum?
What other forum? If you're answering my question, you're permitted to name that forum.
Not all who wander are lost.

Offline Jonathan Gress

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Re: Ustashe's genocide against Orthodox Serbs
« Reply #92 on: Today at 01:00:23 AM »
Funny you should mention this. Because as a matter of fact, I hesitate to do any of that, and I thank you very much for your wise and sound counsel. And from such a young man, too! I'm impressed.

Haven't been in communion since '92 anywhere at all. Just a spectator and observer, watching and listening, very closely and attentively.

And I'm doing just fine, relatively speaking. Maybe I'm in communion with the Angels. Who knows?
Is there such thing outside of Holy Communion?

Is that a rhetorical question?
No.

Am I the only one not surprised that mdamyers got banned from that other forum?
What other forum? If you're answering my question, you're permitted to name that forum.

Monomakhos. I could be mistaken; I thought he introduced himself here by saying he had been banned from there. But his posts indicate some slight attitude problems, to put it mildly.

Offline mdamyers

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Re: Ustashe's genocide against Orthodox Serbs
« Reply #93 on: Today at 01:14:43 AM »
Funny you should mention this. Because as a matter of fact, I hesitate to do any of that, and I thank you very much for your wise and sound counsel. And from such a young man, too! I'm impressed.

Haven't been in communion since '92 anywhere at all. Just a spectator and observer, watching and listening, very closely and attentively.

And I'm doing just fine, relatively speaking. Maybe I'm in communion with the Angels. Who knows?
Is there such thing outside of Holy Communion?

Is that a rhetorical question?
No.

Am I the only one not surprised that mdamyers got banned from that other forum?
What other forum? If you're answering my question, you're permitted to name that forum.

Monomakhos. I could be mistaken; I thought he introduced himself here by saying he had been banned from there. But his posts indicate some slight attitude problems, to put it mildly.

Banned? What are you talking about? Wasn't banned, and never suggested I was.
« Last Edit: Today at 01:16:47 AM by mdamyers »

Offline Jonathan Gress

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Re: Ustashe's genocide against Orthodox Serbs
« Reply #94 on: Today at 01:17:27 AM »
Funny you should mention this. Because as a matter of fact, I hesitate to do any of that, and I thank you very much for your wise and sound counsel. And from such a young man, too! I'm impressed.

Haven't been in communion since '92 anywhere at all. Just a spectator and observer, watching and listening, very closely and attentively.

And I'm doing just fine, relatively speaking. Maybe I'm in communion with the Angels. Who knows?
Is there such thing outside of Holy Communion?

Is that a rhetorical question?
No.

Am I the only one not surprised that mdamyers got banned from that other forum?
What other forum? If you're answering my question, you're permitted to name that forum.

Monomakhos. I could be mistaken; I thought he introduced himself here by saying he had been banned from there. But his posts indicate some slight attitude problems, to put it mildly.

Banned? What are you talking about?

Clearly I misunderstood. Never mind. I still think your posts display a considerable degree of distasteful narcissism (viz. "communing with Angels"), but maybe you'll grow on me.

Offline mdamyers

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Re: Ustashe's genocide against Orthodox Serbs
« Reply #95 on: Today at 01:43:30 AM »
Clearly I misunderstood. Never mind. I still think your posts display a considerable degree of distasteful narcissism (viz. "communing with Angels"), but maybe you'll grow on me.
[/quote]

"Never mind"? It's acceptable here to just make up stuff about a fellow member, and then when called on its falsehood to say, "Never mind?" Talk about distasteful narcissism. You're not accountable for your remarks?

Nothing I've said here even remotely suggested that I was banned from Monomakhos, or anywhere else. You don't feel any obligation to apologize for making a completely false and baseless accusation? What's the basis for you "thinking" that and then sharing your baseless thoughts about me publicly? Just what was it that you "misunderstood?"

Offline PeterTheAleut

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Re: Ustashe's genocide against Orthodox Serbs
« Reply #96 on: Today at 01:46:23 AM »
Clearly I misunderstood. Never mind. I still think your posts display a considerable degree of distasteful narcissism (viz. "communing with Angels"), but maybe you'll grow on me.

"Never mind"? It's acceptable here to just make up stuff about a fellow member, and then when called on its falsehood to say, "Never mind?" Talk about distasteful narcissism. You're not accountable for your remarks?

Nothing I've said here even remotely suggested that I was banned from Monomakhos, or anywhere else. You don't feel any obligation to apologize for making a completely false and baseless accusation? What's the basis for you "thinking" that and then sharing your baseless thoughts about me publicly? Just what was it that you "misunderstood?"
Let it go. If you have a problem with a poster giving you crap, report it to the moderators and let us deal with it.
« Last Edit: Today at 01:47:51 AM by PeterTheAleut »
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Offline Velsigne

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Re: Ustashe's genocide against Orthodox Serbs
« Reply #97 on: Today at 01:53:18 AM »
The atrocities that were committed by the Croatian fascists against the Serbs were monstrous and inexcusable, and the Vatican should unreservedly condemn everything about them.  That being said, I find it sad and disheartening that there is so much prelest and hard-heartedness amongst the followers the Church of Christ.  Some of you are literally excusing the murder of innocent people because of petty geopolitical reasons.  How in any way does this bring honor to the Church?

I thought people were being factual and fairly restrained considering how deep this topic cuts for some, and continues to cut to this very day.  Maybe I didn't read closely enough. 

Who is excusing murder?  The topic of the thread is "Ustashe's genocide against Orthodox Serbs"

Another thread could be started about 'excusers of the murder of innocent people' or just 'the murder of innocent people'.

A good long deep study of genocide only proves that Christ Jesus was spoke the truth all along.   

Offline PeterTheAleut

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Re: Ustashe's genocide against Orthodox Serbs
« Reply #98 on: Today at 01:54:01 AM »
Funny you should mention this. Because as a matter of fact, I hesitate to do any of that, and I thank you very much for your wise and sound counsel. And from such a young man, too! I'm impressed.

Haven't been in communion since '92 anywhere at all. Just a spectator and observer, watching and listening, very closely and attentively.

And I'm doing just fine, relatively speaking. Maybe I'm in communion with the Angels. Who knows?
Is there such thing outside of Holy Communion?

Is that a rhetorical question?
No.

Am I the only one not surprised that mdamyers got banned from that other forum?
What other forum? If you're answering my question, you're permitted to name that forum.

Monomakhos. I could be mistaken; I thought he introduced himself here by saying he had been banned from there. But his posts indicate some slight attitude problems, to put it mildly.

Banned? What are you talking about?

Clearly I misunderstood. Never mind. I still think your posts display a considerable degree of distasteful narcissism (viz. "communing with Angels"), but maybe you'll grow on me.
In mdamyers's defense, though he did speak of some rough-and-tumble experiences he had at Monomakhos, once calling himself the bad cop and the scourge of that forum, he never mentioned anything about actually getting banned from there.
Not all who wander are lost.

Offline mdamyers

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Re: Ustashe's genocide against Orthodox Serbs
« Reply #99 on: Today at 02:00:23 AM »
Papist, maybe you need to reflect honestly on the extent to which you participate, every time you present yourself for the Roman Catholic Eucharist.
I'm sorry, but I have to come to Papist's defense here. How is reception of the Body and Blood of Christ participation in the evil acts perpetrated by individual persons or even leaders within their organization? I certainly don't see myself as participating in Russia's historic anti-Jewish pogroms merely by receiving Communion in an Orthodox church.

First of all, whether any Roman Catholic is truly "receiving the Body and Blood of Christ" is far from a settled question, among Orthodox Christians.
That's irrelevant to my point, though.

Second, Roman Catholic ecclesiology, anthropology and sacramentology, and their "logical" ramifications, have diverged markedly from the Holy Orthodox phronema, as I understand it, on the nature of Holy Orders, human ontology in Christ in the Church Militant, and of the Eucharist.
That, also, is irrelevant to my point.

Third, I'm a little quirky on one point. I've always had a strong tendency to place the emphasis wrt to Real Presence of the Body and Blood of Christ more on the human beings involved than on the elements of bread and wine, abstracted from them. Color me weird that way, possibly even heretical. I think I have good grounds for this in the text of the Divine Liturgy of St. James, in particular.
That, also, is irrelevant to my point.

All of ch. 12 is relevant to my point here, but especially this pericope, re: Jesus' Flesh and Blood:

The Sign of Jonah

Then some of the Pharisees and teachers of the law said to him, “Teacher, we want to see a sign from you.”

He answered, “A wicked and adulterous generation asks for a sign! But none will be given it except the sign of the prophet Jonah. For as Jonah was three days and three nights in the belly of a huge fish, so the Son of Man will be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth. The men of Nineveh will stand up at the judgment with this generation and condemn it; for they repented at the preaching of Jonah, and now something greater than Jonah is here. The Queen of the South will rise at the judgment with this generation and condemn it; for she came from the ends of the earth to listen to Solomon’s wisdom, and now something greater than Solomon is here.

“When an impure spirit comes out of a person, it goes through arid places seeking rest and does not find it. Then it says, ‘I will return to the house I left.’ When it arrives, it finds the house unoccupied, swept clean and put in order. Then it goes and takes with it seven other spirits more wicked than itself, and they go in and live there. And the final condition of that person is worse than the first. That is how it will be with this wicked generation.”

Jesus’ Mother and Brothers

While Jesus was still talking to the crowd, his mother and brothers stood outside, wanting to speak to him. Someone told him, “Your mother and brothers are standing outside, wanting to speak to you.”

He replied to him, “Who is my mother, and who are my brothers?” Pointing to his disciples, he said, “Here are my mother and my brothers. For whoever does the will of my Father in heaven is my brother and sister and mother.”
-- Matthew 12:38-50 (NIV)


Lots of relevant thoughts in St. Paul too, and I'll look for them to cite. I want to avoid mere proof-texting, so please give me a while to research and make my case.
Your whole point is irrelevant to my point, though. I'm not discussing sacramental theology here. I'm just pointing out the logical fallacy of your idea that Papist's reception of the sacraments of his church makes him by association guilty of the crimes committed by members of his church.

Evidently you share his confusion. I didn't say that. Read me again, please. After you read what I actually wrote, rather than what you imagine I wrote, please explain the logical fallacy of my idea. Then consider whether your point is sound, the one everything I wrote is so irrelevant to, I mean. Rather than make the default assumption that I'm the one who's logically fallacious.
Actually, the context makes it very clear that you see Papist as participating to some degree in the atrocities he criticizes every time he receives Communion.

Peter, do you consider yourself familiar with Roman Catholic ecclesiology and sacramental theology? Their take on Christian anthropology?
I imagine Papist knows a lot more about those subjects than I do, yet he agrees with me about the total irrationality of your point of view.

We can come back to the total irrationality of my point of view, and to that authoritative pronouncement delivered by Papist in support of your opinion about that irrationality later. But first I'd like to get back to the main point here. Are monstrous crimes against humanity committed by ordained priests and hierarchs, and then covered up at the top, in the Vatican, something to take lightly, to the point that being in communion with such persons and such a church ought not to be an issue of conscience for a believer? Is such a view the backstory behind your remarks, Peter?

Offline Alpo

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Re: Ustashe's genocide against Orthodox Serbs
« Reply #100 on: Today at 02:08:00 AM »
"Genocide" gets thrown too lightly these days. Not all atrocities or mass-murders constitute genocides.

Killing over 1 million People, systematically in death camps and other ways, because of their nationality and faith, is genocide.

Not necessarily. Persecution it certainly is but AFAIK genocide means also destroying even the very memory of a culture.

I'm not saying that this incident wasn't a genocide though. Don't know much about it.

Offline mdamyers

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Re: Ustashe's genocide against Orthodox Serbs
« Reply #101 on: Today at 02:08:30 AM »
Clearly I misunderstood. Never mind. I still think your posts display a considerable degree of distasteful narcissism (viz. "communing with Angels"), but maybe you'll grow on me.

"Never mind"? It's acceptable here to just make up stuff about a fellow member, and then when called on its falsehood to say, "Never mind?" Talk about distasteful narcissism. You're not accountable for your remarks?

Nothing I've said here even remotely suggested that I was banned from Monomakhos, or anywhere else. You don't feel any obligation to apologize for making a completely false and baseless accusation? What's the basis for you "thinking" that and then sharing your baseless thoughts about me publicly? Just what was it that you "misunderstood?"
Let it go. If you have a problem with a poster giving you crap, report it to the moderators and let us deal with it.

Peter, I'm new here. Are you telling me I can't publicly defend myself from public false accusations made by a poster? It's not my style to go whining to moderators. Is that unacceptable?
« Last Edit: Today at 02:09:18 AM by mdamyers »

Offline mdamyers

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Re: Ustashe's genocide against Orthodox Serbs
« Reply #102 on: Today at 02:13:48 AM »
"Genocide" gets thrown too lightly these days. Not all atrocities or mass-murders constitute genocides.

Killing over 1 million People, systematically in death camps and other ways, because of their nationality and faith, is genocide.

Not necessarily. Persecution it certainly is but AFAIK genocide means also destroying even the very memory of a culture.

I'm not saying that this incident wasn't a genocide though. Don't know much about it.

As I noted on the 2nd page, according to the definition of genocide approved by the General Assembly of the UN in 1948, these crimes constituted genocide. They are backtracking a bit now though, apparently. Probably for political reasons, not because the charge isn't a valid one, based on their own as far as I know unrevised definition.

Offline Volnutt

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Re: Ustashe's genocide against Orthodox Serbs
« Reply #103 on: Today at 02:20:10 AM »
Funny you should mention this. Because as a matter of fact, I hesitate to do any of that, and I thank you very much for your wise and sound counsel. And from such a young man, too! I'm impressed.

Haven't been in communion since '92 anywhere at all. Just a spectator, watching and listening, very closely and attentively.

And I'm doing just fine, relatively speaking. Maybe I'm in communion with the Angels. Who knows?

I was being sarcastic. I think all of Christianity is stained with the blood of innocents just as all of humanity is. Trying to find the cleanest rats in the sewer will only end in frustration, something I'm finding out the hard way.

Roger tower. That's why I left the sewer.

No you haven't. You're still a human being.
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I once heard a monk say, “The person of prayer does not need to go any further than his own heart to find the source of all violence in the world.” -Fr. Stephen Freeman

Offline Volnutt

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Re: Ustashe's genocide against Orthodox Serbs
« Reply #104 on: Today at 02:29:53 AM »
The atrocities that were committed by the Croatian fascists against the Serbs were monstrous and inexcusable, and the Vatican should unreservedly condemn everything about them.  That being said, I find it sad and disheartening that there is so much prelest and hard-heartedness amongst the followers the Church of Christ.  Some of you are literally excusing the murder of innocent people because of petty geopolitical reasons.  How in any way does this bring honor to the Church?

I thought people were being factual and fairly restrained considering how deep this topic cuts for some, and continues to cut to this very day.  Maybe I didn't read closely enough. 

Who is excusing murder?

Isa probably came closest to doing that regarding Orthodox crimes against Greek and Italian Catholics.
Every day we should hear at least one little song, read one good poem, see one exquisite picture, and, if possible, speak a few sensible words. -Goethe

I once heard a monk say, “The person of prayer does not need to go any further than his own heart to find the source of all violence in the world.” -Fr. Stephen Freeman

Offline PeterTheAleut

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Re: Ustashe's genocide against Orthodox Serbs
« Reply #105 on: Today at 02:33:37 AM »
Papist, maybe you need to reflect honestly on the extent to which you participate, every time you present yourself for the Roman Catholic Eucharist.
I'm sorry, but I have to come to Papist's defense here. How is reception of the Body and Blood of Christ participation in the evil acts perpetrated by individual persons or even leaders within their organization? I certainly don't see myself as participating in Russia's historic anti-Jewish pogroms merely by receiving Communion in an Orthodox church.

First of all, whether any Roman Catholic is truly "receiving the Body and Blood of Christ" is far from a settled question, among Orthodox Christians.
That's irrelevant to my point, though.

Second, Roman Catholic ecclesiology, anthropology and sacramentology, and their "logical" ramifications, have diverged markedly from the Holy Orthodox phronema, as I understand it, on the nature of Holy Orders, human ontology in Christ in the Church Militant, and of the Eucharist.
That, also, is irrelevant to my point.

Third, I'm a little quirky on one point. I've always had a strong tendency to place the emphasis wrt to Real Presence of the Body and Blood of Christ more on the human beings involved than on the elements of bread and wine, abstracted from them. Color me weird that way, possibly even heretical. I think I have good grounds for this in the text of the Divine Liturgy of St. James, in particular.
That, also, is irrelevant to my point.

All of ch. 12 is relevant to my point here, but especially this pericope, re: Jesus' Flesh and Blood:

The Sign of Jonah

Then some of the Pharisees and teachers of the law said to him, “Teacher, we want to see a sign from you.”

He answered, “A wicked and adulterous generation asks for a sign! But none will be given it except the sign of the prophet Jonah. For as Jonah was three days and three nights in the belly of a huge fish, so the Son of Man will be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth. The men of Nineveh will stand up at the judgment with this generation and condemn it; for they repented at the preaching of Jonah, and now something greater than Jonah is here. The Queen of the South will rise at the judgment with this generation and condemn it; for she came from the ends of the earth to listen to Solomon’s wisdom, and now something greater than Solomon is here.

“When an impure spirit comes out of a person, it goes through arid places seeking rest and does not find it. Then it says, ‘I will return to the house I left.’ When it arrives, it finds the house unoccupied, swept clean and put in order. Then it goes and takes with it seven other spirits more wicked than itself, and they go in and live there. And the final condition of that person is worse than the first. That is how it will be with this wicked generation.”

Jesus’ Mother and Brothers

While Jesus was still talking to the crowd, his mother and brothers stood outside, wanting to speak to him. Someone told him, “Your mother and brothers are standing outside, wanting to speak to you.”

He replied to him, “Who is my mother, and who are my brothers?” Pointing to his disciples, he said, “Here are my mother and my brothers. For whoever does the will of my Father in heaven is my brother and sister and mother.”
-- Matthew 12:38-50 (NIV)


Lots of relevant thoughts in St. Paul too, and I'll look for them to cite. I want to avoid mere proof-texting, so please give me a while to research and make my case.
Your whole point is irrelevant to my point, though. I'm not discussing sacramental theology here. I'm just pointing out the logical fallacy of your idea that Papist's reception of the sacraments of his church makes him by association guilty of the crimes committed by members of his church.

Evidently you share his confusion. I didn't say that. Read me again, please. After you read what I actually wrote, rather than what you imagine I wrote, please explain the logical fallacy of my idea. Then consider whether your point is sound, the one everything I wrote is so irrelevant to, I mean. Rather than make the default assumption that I'm the one who's logically fallacious.
Actually, the context makes it very clear that you see Papist as participating to some degree in the atrocities he criticizes every time he receives Communion.

Peter, do you consider yourself familiar with Roman Catholic ecclesiology and sacramental theology? Their take on Christian anthropology?
I imagine Papist knows a lot more about those subjects than I do, yet he agrees with me about the total irrationality of your point of view.

We can come back to the total irrationality of my point of view, and to that authoritative pronouncement delivered by Papist in support of your opinion about that irrationality later. But first I'd like to get back to the main point here. Are monstrous crimes against humanity committed by ordained priests and hierarchs, and then covered up at the top, in the Vatican, something to take lightly, to the point that being in communion with such persons and such a church ought not to be an issue of conscience for a believer? Is such a view the backstory behind your remarks, Peter?
No, that is not the back story behind my remarks.
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Offline mdamyers

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Re: Ustashe's genocide against Orthodox Serbs
« Reply #106 on: Today at 02:39:30 AM »
I don't understand the basis for your remarks then. That issue of conscience is the basis for mine, anyway. Maybe you could be more helpfully explicit wrt the backstory or basis for yours.

Offline PeterTheAleut

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Re: Ustashe's genocide against Orthodox Serbs
« Reply #107 on: Today at 02:40:23 AM »
Clearly I misunderstood. Never mind. I still think your posts display a considerable degree of distasteful narcissism (viz. "communing with Angels"), but maybe you'll grow on me.

"Never mind"? It's acceptable here to just make up stuff about a fellow member, and then when called on its falsehood to say, "Never mind?" Talk about distasteful narcissism. You're not accountable for your remarks?

Nothing I've said here even remotely suggested that I was banned from Monomakhos, or anywhere else. You don't feel any obligation to apologize for making a completely false and baseless accusation? What's the basis for you "thinking" that and then sharing your baseless thoughts about me publicly? Just what was it that you "misunderstood?"
Let it go. If you have a problem with a poster giving you crap, report it to the moderators and let us deal with it.

Peter, I'm new here. Are you telling me I can't publicly defend myself from public false accusations made by a poster? It's not my style to go whining to moderators. Is that unacceptable?
  • You are permitted to defend yourself publicly against false accusations. You are not permitted to do so in a hostile manner that only brings more strife to the thread.
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Offline Cavaradossi

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Re: Ustashe's genocide against Orthodox Serbs
« Reply #108 on: Today at 02:51:23 AM »
If the Vatican apologized unreservedly for their support of these atrocities, even if they withdrew the beatification of Stepinac and the rest, they would still be heretics and outside the Church. This whole discussion gives the false impression that the division between Orthodox and Papist is just politics.

This is true. The focus on atrocities is bizarre really, beyond explaining to people who might be curious why bad blood exists between both sides in modern times.
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Offline PeterTheAleut

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Re: Ustashe's genocide against Orthodox Serbs
« Reply #109 on: Today at 02:51:48 AM »
I don't understand the basis for your remarks then. That issue of conscience is the basis for mine, anyway. Maybe you could be more helpfully explicit wrt the backstory or basis for yours.
I commune with sinners all the time. I commune with sinful priests, bishops, and patriarchs. During the height of the scandals that rocked the Orthodox Church in America a decade ago, I communed with sinful bishops and priests who sought to cover up bucket loads of crap. Does that make me a participant in their wrongdoing? No.

When I receive Communion, I receive Christ, and I do so as a sinner in communion with other sinners. I do so for the remission of my sins and unto life everlasting. When the faithful of the Church gather together to receive Holy Communion, they do so for the remission of their sins, both individual and communal, and unto life everlasting. When I receive Holy Communion, I do so with the prayer that Christ will cleanse me of my sins and will cleanse all the Church's faithful of their sins. My reception of Holy Communion does not in any way support or condone the sins of the hierarchs, nor does it make me a participant in their sins.
« Last Edit: Today at 02:52:40 AM by PeterTheAleut »
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Offline Alpo

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Re: Ustashe's genocide against Orthodox Serbs
« Reply #110 on: Today at 03:18:22 AM »
"Genocide" gets thrown too lightly these days. Not all atrocities or mass-murders constitute genocides.

Killing over 1 million People, systematically in death camps and other ways, because of their nationality and faith, is genocide.

Not necessarily. Persecution it certainly is but AFAIK genocide means also destroying even the very memory of a culture.

I'm not saying that this incident wasn't a genocide though. Don't know much about it.

As I noted on the 2nd page, according to the definition of genocide approved by the General Assembly of the UN in 1948, these crimes constituted genocide. They are backtracking a bit now though, apparently. Probably for political reasons, not because the charge isn't a valid one, based on their own as far as I know unrevised definition.

Interesting. Didn't see the reference before. I didn't know that the UN had a definition for genocide. Seems to be suprisingly wide one too. I thought that the deginition is more defined.

Offline mdamyers

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Re: Ustashe's genocide against Orthodox Serbs
« Reply #111 on: Today at 03:38:45 AM »
That is your opinion about your own communion in the Orthodox Church, and maybe it's theologically impeccable, too, in that communion. The scandal you refer to in the OCA was largely if not exclusively serious financial impropriety, and cover-up related to it. Is that correct?

Papist and I are Catholics. I'm out of communion with Rome for lots of reasons, but the one at the top of my list is the fact that way too many of the RCC's lay and ordained, never excommunicated communicants were up to their necks in active or compicit participation in horrible atrocities and genocides in the 20th century, in Europe, Central and South America. And elsewhere, too, though those were the principal hot spots.

Maybe I'm too fastidious, but I do honestly think and feel that to be in communion with the RCC would be to participate in and be complicit with, to a significant degree, this ugly history. Objectively. If not "theologically." So I'm not in communion and haven't been for ~23 years. My suggestion to Papist, the one that unfortunately initiated all this diversionary verbiage from the terribly important and timely topic of this thread, was something I wrestled with years ago, as noted. I wrestle with my deep concern about what's happening in the ROC now, wrt to becoming an Orthodox Christian, something I've been considering more and more seriously since the 80s. This is very painful to me.

Offline Pravoslavac

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Re: Ustashe's genocide against Orthodox Serbs
« Reply #112 on: Today at 03:40:30 AM »
I think the CC has taken huge steps in apologising for past actions although we are far from complete with respect to confessing our sins publically. Lord knows... Yet we must not also fall into the fallacy of composition when we issue blame.. Yet I will be the first to admit the adherents of Catholicism have not always been very Catholic.

I also think the same should be done by our eastern counterparts who are also guilty of some evils towards our communion too.
Such as...?

For starters, the massacre of the Latins in Constantinople by the Orthodox

If you don't know; The Latins in Constantinople were slaughtered for being Latin by the Greeks in 1182. The bulk of the Latin community, estimated at 60,000 at the time by Eustathius of Thessalonica, was wiped out or forced to flee. The Genoese and Pisan communities especially were decimated, and some 4,000 survivors were sold as slaves to the (Turkish) Sultanate of Rum.

The massacre was indiscriminate as neither women nor children were spared, and Latin patients lying in hospital beds were murdered. Houses, churches, and charities were looted. The Eucharist was thrown out on the street and trampled over by the Greeks. Latin clergymen received special attention, and Cardinal John, the papal legate, was beheaded and his head was dragged through the streets at the tail of a dog!

Quote
It is saddening that not a single apology has been  made till this day by the east for crimes against the west. Is it fair of us to ask for this too?
What we need in this world are people much quicker to offer an apology than to seek one.
Yet is this not what the orthodox are doing??
Are the Orthodox the only people worthy of receiving apologies yet are too high and mighty to apologize for their own evils?!

Quote
I'm not here to compare crime with crime. I'm only asking for an apology just as the west has done.
So rather than focus on how you have wronged others, you would rather focus on how others have wronged you?
The irony... This thread is the image of what you just said, only that Orthodox fulfill your words

Do you really think we need your apology? Before we go to sleep, we think, oh God, are Latins going to apologize to us? How can we sleep without it? We don't need apology, we need justice, just like NAZI Germany was destroyed by the USSR, we need someone to destroy NAZI Vatican. We never expected any good from the Latins in the last 1000 years anyway. And it is true shame and blasphemy against the Holy Spirit that Vatican still dares to claim to be the Church led by the Holy Spirit. What kind of Church led by the Holy Spirit goes around and kills People for being different. Now you will say, it was bad popes, well, heretical teachings gave the pope such authority, he could rape the world.

The Russian Orthodox Church, if you had asked Jews in the late nineteenth, early twentieth century.

Russian Orthodox Church never had governmental and secular power to do such thing.
It worked hand in hand with Communists to persecute to Catholics in Russia on numerous occasions. The Orthodox Churches in eastern Europe were used by the communists, but it is documented fact that many bishops and priests cooperated with the communists in persecuting Byzantine Catholic to such a horrible degree(confiscating churches and monasteries, shipping priests and monks to Siberia). As a result, we have many martyrs, many of whom are being investigated for canonization.

Lol worked in hand to hand with communists... ?  Well, Latins worked in hand to hand with Satan to destroy Orthodoxy. The Latin Church in western Europe was used by the Satan, but it is documented fact that many bishops and priests cooperated with the Satan in persecuting Orthodox Church to such horrible degree (Skinning bishops alive, shipping priests and entire population to death camps) As a result, we have many martyrs, many of whom are being investigated for canonization.

Latin Church to canonize someone. LOL In communism, everyone was persecuted, not just yacky uniates. And just because communists installed some red bishops and priests, that means nothing. Those so called bishops and priests, were spying even on their own People, telling authorities who goes to Church...
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Offline Pravoslavac

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Re: Ustashe's genocide against Orthodox Serbs
« Reply #113 on: Today at 03:46:46 AM »
What popes do? They go around and apologize, LOL, because their Church is nothing but a crime machinery. No wonder why world hates it.
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Offline Pravoslavac

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Re: Ustashe's genocide against Orthodox Serbs
« Reply #114 on: Today at 03:59:21 AM »
Ukrainian Uniate... lol Then they wonder why they hit hard by Stalin. LOL

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Offline mdamyers

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Re: Ustashe's genocide against Orthodox Serbs
« Reply #115 on: Today at 04:00:18 AM »
Funny you should mention this. Because as a matter of fact, I hesitate to do any of that, and I thank you very much for your wise and sound counsel. And from such a young man, too! I'm impressed.

Haven't been in communion since '92 anywhere at all. Just a spectator, watching and listening, very closely and attentively.

And I'm doing just fine, relatively speaking. Maybe I'm in communion with the Angels. Who knows?

I was being sarcastic. I think all of Christianity is stained with the blood of innocents just as all of humanity is. Trying to find the cleanest rats in the sewer will only end in frustration, something I'm finding out the hard way.

Roger tower. That's why I left the sewer.

No you haven't. You're still a human being.

No doubt, but I don't consider myself a Catholic anymore, and haven't done really for 23 years now, in effect -- by not communing. (They would say I'd excommunicated myself.) But anyway, that was my point in saying I left the sewer (viz., of the human guilt in the RCC). Didn't want to be complicit any longer in all that, which in my opinion I would be if still "part of it."

Offline PeterTheAleut

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Re: Ustashe's genocide against Orthodox Serbs
« Reply #116 on: Today at 04:15:52 AM »
That is your opinion about your own communion in the Orthodox Church, and maybe it's theologically impeccable, too, in that communion. The scandal you refer to in the OCA was largely if not exclusively serious financial impropriety, and cover-up related to it. Is that correct?
That's the biggest part of it, though not the only part. We also had a major problem with at least one rogue bishop who wreaked havoc in Alaska with his abusive rule of the diocese. He has since been removed from his hierarchical see, thankfully.

Papist and I are Catholics. I'm out of communion with Rome for lots of reasons, but the one at the top of my list is the fact that way too many of the RCC's lay and ordained, never excommunicated communicants were up to their necks in active or compicit participation in horrible atrocities and genocides in the 20th century, in Europe, Central and South America. And elsewhere, too, though those were the principal hot spots.
And yet, in spite of our differences on a number of other issues, Papist and I do appear to agree that your definition of what it means to receive Communion in our churches is ridiculous.

Maybe I'm too fastidious, but I do honestly think and feel that to be in communion with the RCC would be to participate in and be complicit with, to a significant degree, this ugly history. Objectively. If not "theologically." So I'm not in communion and haven't been for ~23 years. My suggestion to Papist, the one that unfortunately initiated all this diversionary verbiage from the terribly important and timely topic of this thread, was something I wrestled with years ago, as noted. I wrestle with my deep concern about what's happening in the ROC now, wrt to becoming an Orthodox Christian, something I've been considering more and more seriously since the 80s. This is very painful to me.
Maybe you should listen to and give some credence to what Papist has to say and not be so quick to jump on him. He may agree with me and tell you that your view of Communion with the Roman Catholic Church is just as screwed up as your view of the Orthodox Church. But even if he does, Papist knows what he's talking about. Maybe you should take a refresher course from him on what it means to be Catholic.
« Last Edit: Today at 04:32:33 AM by PeterTheAleut »
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Offline Pravoslavac

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Re: Ustashe's genocide against Orthodox Serbs
« Reply #117 on: Today at 04:25:58 AM »
That is your opinion about your own communion in the Orthodox Church, and maybe it's theologically impeccable, too, in that communion. The scandal you refer to in the OCA was largely if not exclusively serious financial impropriety, and cover-up related to it. Is that correct?
That's the biggest part of it, though not the only part. We also had a major problem with at least one rogue bishop who wreaked havoc in Alaska with his abusive rule of the diocese. He has since been removed from his hierarchical see, thankfully.

Papist and I are Catholics. I'm out of communion with Rome for lots of reasons, but the one at the top of my list is the fact that way too many of the RCC's lay and ordained, never excommunicated communicants were up to their necks in active or compicit participation in horrible atrocities and genocides in the 20th century, in Europe, Central and South America. And elsewhere, too, though those were the principal hot spots.
And yet, in spite of our differences on a number of other issues, Papist and I do appear to agree that your definition of what it means to receive Communion in our churches is ridiculous.

Maybe I'm too fastidious, but I do honestly think and feel that to be in communion with the RCC would be to participate in and be complicit with, to a significant degree, this ugly history. Objectively. If not "theologically." So I'm not in communion and haven't been for ~23 years. My suggestion to Papist, the one that unfortunately initiated all this diversionary verbiage from the terribly important and timely topic of this thread, was something I wrestled with years ago, as noted. I wrestle with my deep concern about what's happening in the ROC now, wrt to becoming an Orthodox Christian, something I've been considering more and more seriously since the 80s. This is very painful to me.
Maybe you should listen to and give some credence to what Papist has to say and not be so quick to jump But on him. He may agree with me and tell you that your view of Communion with the Roman Catholic Church is just as screwed up as your view of the Orthodox Church. even if he does, Papist knows what he's talking about.

If papist knew anything, he wouldn't be papist. :P BURN lol
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Offline PeterTheAleut

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Re: Ustashe's genocide against Orthodox Serbs
« Reply #118 on: Today at 04:28:38 AM »
That is your opinion about your own communion in the Orthodox Church, and maybe it's theologically impeccable, too, in that communion. The scandal you refer to in the OCA was largely if not exclusively serious financial impropriety, and cover-up related to it. Is that correct?
That's the biggest part of it, though not the only part. We also had a major problem with at least one rogue bishop who wreaked havoc in Alaska with his abusive rule of the diocese. He has since been removed from his hierarchical see, thankfully.

Papist and I are Catholics. I'm out of communion with Rome for lots of reasons, but the one at the top of my list is the fact that way too many of the RCC's lay and ordained, never excommunicated communicants were up to their necks in active or compicit participation in horrible atrocities and genocides in the 20th century, in Europe, Central and South America. And elsewhere, too, though those were the principal hot spots.
And yet, in spite of our differences on a number of other issues, Papist and I do appear to agree that your definition of what it means to receive Communion in our churches is ridiculous.

Maybe I'm too fastidious, but I do honestly think and feel that to be in communion with the RCC would be to participate in and be complicit with, to a significant degree, this ugly history. Objectively. If not "theologically." So I'm not in communion and haven't been for ~23 years. My suggestion to Papist, the one that unfortunately initiated all this diversionary verbiage from the terribly important and timely topic of this thread, was something I wrestled with years ago, as noted. I wrestle with my deep concern about what's happening in the ROC now, wrt to becoming an Orthodox Christian, something I've been considering more and more seriously since the 80s. This is very painful to me.
Maybe you should listen to and give some credence to what Papist has to say and not be so quick to jump But on him. He may agree with me and tell you that your view of Communion with the Roman Catholic Church is just as screwed up as your view of the Orthodox Church. even if he does, Papist knows what he's talking about.

If papist knew anything, he wouldn't be papist. :P BURN lol
That's just stupid... and childish. Papist knows much more about how to be a Christian than you appear to know, even though he's not Orthodox.
« Last Edit: Today at 04:38:02 AM by PeterTheAleut »
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Offline mdamyers

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Re: Ustashe's genocide against Orthodox Serbs
« Reply #119 on: Today at 04:32:21 AM »
Peter, no matter how much I try to explain, you just don't get my point. Although I know a whole lot about Catholic ecclesiology and sacramental theology, since I studied it for years and still read up on it today, that's not relevant to my bottom line: I consider it indecent, knowing what I know about the Catholic Church, to receive communion in it, to be a member of it. I want no part of it. That's my position. If that's OK with you.

I shall give all due consideration to the value of your, and Papist's, compelling assertions about how ridiculous, irrational, and illogical my opinions are. And screwed up, too -- forgot that one. Thanks for sharing. I'm learning a lot.
« Last Edit: Today at 05:05:44 AM by mdamyers »

Offline PeterTheAleut

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Re: Ustashe's genocide against Orthodox Serbs
« Reply #120 on: Today at 04:36:20 AM »
Peter, no matter how much I try to explain, you just don't get my point.
Maybe I don't want to, seeing how ludicrous you've already shown it to be.

Although I know a whole lot about Catholic ecclesiology and sacramental theology, since I studied it for years and still read up on it today, that's not relevant to my bottom line: I consider it indecent, knowing what I know about the Catholic Church, to receive communion in it, to be a member of it.
Tell me about it! I almost became Catholic myself but discovered that I just couldn't because of the problems I grew to have with her. I don't think, though, that the problems I have with Rome are the problems you have with Rome.

I want no part of it. That's my position. If that's alright with you.
I don't have a problem with your decision. Just make sure it's for the right reasons and not because of the straw men you've built in your head.

I shall give all due consideration to the value of your, and Papist's, assertions about how ridiculous, irrational, and illogical my opinions are. Thanks for sharing them. I'm learning a lot from them.
Thank you.
« Last Edit: Today at 04:37:07 AM by PeterTheAleut »
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Offline Pravoslavac

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Re: Ustashe's genocide against Orthodox Serbs
« Reply #121 on: Today at 04:54:08 AM »
That is your opinion about your own communion in the Orthodox Church, and maybe it's theologically impeccable, too, in that communion. The scandal you refer to in the OCA was largely if not exclusively serious financial impropriety, and cover-up related to it. Is that correct?
That's the biggest part of it, though not the only part. We also had a major problem with at least one rogue bishop who wreaked havoc in Alaska with his abusive rule of the diocese. He has since been removed from his hierarchical see, thankfully.

Papist and I are Catholics. I'm out of communion with Rome for lots of reasons, but the one at the top of my list is the fact that way too many of the RCC's lay and ordained, never excommunicated communicants were up to their necks in active or compicit participation in horrible atrocities and genocides in the 20th century, in Europe, Central and South America. And elsewhere, too, though those were the principal hot spots.
And yet, in spite of our differences on a number of other issues, Papist and I do appear to agree that your definition of what it means to receive Communion in our churches is ridiculous.

Maybe I'm too fastidious, but I do honestly think and feel that to be in communion with the RCC would be to participate in and be complicit with, to a significant degree, this ugly history. Objectively. If not "theologically." So I'm not in communion and haven't been for ~23 years. My suggestion to Papist, the one that unfortunately initiated all this diversionary verbiage from the terribly important and timely topic of this thread, was something I wrestled with years ago, as noted. I wrestle with my deep concern about what's happening in the ROC now, wrt to becoming an Orthodox Christian, something I've been considering more and more seriously since the 80s. This is very painful to me.
Maybe you should listen to and give some credence to what Papist has to say and not be so quick to jump But on him. He may agree with me and tell you that your view of Communion with the Roman Catholic Church is just as screwed up as your view of the Orthodox Church. even if he does, Papist knows what he's talking about.

If papist knew anything, he wouldn't be papist. :P BURN lol
That's just stupid... and childish. Papist knows much more about how to be a Christian than you appear to know, even though he's not Orthodox.

And yet he believes pope is Vicar of God. lol
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Offline Wyatt

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Re: Ustashe's genocide against Orthodox Serbs
« Reply #122 on: Today at 05:16:55 AM »
That is your opinion about your own communion in the Orthodox Church, and maybe it's theologically impeccable, too, in that communion. The scandal you refer to in the OCA was largely if not exclusively serious financial impropriety, and cover-up related to it. Is that correct?
That's the biggest part of it, though not the only part. We also had a major problem with at least one rogue bishop who wreaked havoc in Alaska with his abusive rule of the diocese. He has since been removed from his hierarchical see, thankfully.

Papist and I are Catholics. I'm out of communion with Rome for lots of reasons, but the one at the top of my list is the fact that way too many of the RCC's lay and ordained, never excommunicated communicants were up to their necks in active or compicit participation in horrible atrocities and genocides in the 20th century, in Europe, Central and South America. And elsewhere, too, though those were the principal hot spots.
And yet, in spite of our differences on a number of other issues, Papist and I do appear to agree that your definition of what it means to receive Communion in our churches is ridiculous.

Maybe I'm too fastidious, but I do honestly think and feel that to be in communion with the RCC would be to participate in and be complicit with, to a significant degree, this ugly history. Objectively. If not "theologically." So I'm not in communion and haven't been for ~23 years. My suggestion to Papist, the one that unfortunately initiated all this diversionary verbiage from the terribly important and timely topic of this thread, was something I wrestled with years ago, as noted. I wrestle with my deep concern about what's happening in the ROC now, wrt to becoming an Orthodox Christian, something I've been considering more and more seriously since the 80s. This is very painful to me.
Maybe you should listen to and give some credence to what Papist has to say and not be so quick to jump But on him. He may agree with me and tell you that your view of Communion with the Roman Catholic Church is just as screwed up as your view of the Orthodox Church. even if he does, Papist knows what he's talking about.

If papist knew anything, he wouldn't be papist. :P BURN lol
That's just stupid... and childish. Papist knows much more about how to be a Christian than you appear to know, even though he's not Orthodox.

And yet he believes pope is Vicar of God. lol
What a great witness to Orthodoxy you are. LOLOL

Offline Pravoslavac

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Re: Ustashe's genocide against Orthodox Serbs
« Reply #123 on: Today at 05:35:45 AM »
I always believed that People in the west are Roman-Catholics because they didn't hear anything about Orthodoxy, but as i grew i realized, some Latins really believe in this papal stuff. lol
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Offline Pravoslavac

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Re: Ustashe's genocide against Orthodox Serbs
« Reply #124 on: Today at 05:38:49 AM »
Croatian leader Ante Pavelić and his Latin bishops. So many bishops.
« Last Edit: Today at 05:39:08 AM by Pravoslavac »
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Offline Pravoslavac

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Re: Ustashe's genocide against Orthodox Serbs
« Reply #125 on: Today at 05:46:19 AM »


Orthodox kids killed in their school, Latin death machine broke in and asked them to make the sign of the cross, those who made Orthodox sign of the cross, they were taken out in front of the school, ustashe first broke their legs, and then killed them by smashing their heads on the school walls.
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Offline Pravoslavac

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Re: Ustashe's genocide against Orthodox Serbs
« Reply #126 on: Today at 05:52:28 AM »
Orthodox Martyr's last picture, right before his execution. Ustashe were excited to pose with their victims right before execution. The other Ustashe soldier is prepared to gather martyr's blood. No one really knows why did Latins gather blood of martyrs, they used to send barrels to their leader Pavelić. Let's hope they didn't send it somewhere else.
« Last Edit: Today at 05:54:20 AM by Pravoslavac »
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Offline Pravoslavac

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Re: Ustashe's genocide against Orthodox Serbs
« Reply #127 on: Today at 05:57:45 AM »


Orthodox martyr children in death camp, waiting for their death.
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Offline Pravoslavac

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Re: Ustashe's genocide against Orthodox Serbs
« Reply #128 on: Today at 06:03:58 AM »
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sOn4tiRHmoA Croatian popular folk song that praises Ustashe death camps Jasenovac and Gradiška Stara. Notice how many likes this video has, all given by the today's Croats. Croatia is Latin stronghold in today's secular Europe. Popular singers of these songs are not condemned by the Roman-Catholic Church or the Croatian state, actually, they are invited to sing at their celebrations.

Jasenovac and Gradiška Stara,
that is the house Max's butchers!
Trucks are in hurry!
They are transporting ustashe of Francetić Jure.

In Čapljina, slaughterer house was,
many Serbs were taken away by river Neretva.

etc...

« Last Edit: Today at 06:05:38 AM by Pravoslavac »
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Offline Wandile

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Re: Ustashe's genocide against Orthodox Serbs
« Reply #129 on: Today at 06:09:42 AM »
Your communion had already started killing people for being different in 1182 after the Council of Chalcedon... You condemn yourself by your own standard. Your emotions cloud your judgement.

Not as satisfying now, is it?

The murder of innocents is never satisfying.
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Re: Ustashe's genocide against Orthodox Serbs
« Reply #130 on: Today at 06:27:07 AM »
Funny you should mention this. Because as a matter of fact, I hesitate to do any of that, and I thank you very much for your wise and sound counsel. And from such a young man, too! I'm impressed.

Haven't been in communion since '92 anywhere at all. Just a spectator, watching and listening, very closely and attentively.

And I'm doing just fine, relatively speaking. Maybe I'm in communion with the Angels. Who knows?

I was being sarcastic. I think all of Christianity is stained with the blood of innocents just as all of humanity is. Trying to find the cleanest rats in the sewer will only end in frustration, something I'm finding out the hard way.

Roger tower. That's why I left the sewer.

No you haven't. You're still a human being.

No doubt, but I don't consider myself a Catholic anymore, and haven't done really for 23 years now, in effect -- by not communing. (They would say I'd excommunicated myself.) But anyway, that was my point in saying I left the sewer (viz., of the human guilt in the RCC). Didn't want to be complicit any longer in all that, which in my opinion I would be if still "part of it."

But I was saying that all of Christianity is a sewer in that regard. If Catholicism is unacceptable because of crimes of it's hierarchs, then so is every denomination except perhaps the Quakers.
Every day we should hear at least one little song, read one good poem, see one exquisite picture, and, if possible, speak a few sensible words. -Goethe

I once heard a monk say, “The person of prayer does not need to go any further than his own heart to find the source of all violence in the world.” -Fr. Stephen Freeman

Offline Volnutt

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Re: Ustashe's genocide against Orthodox Serbs
« Reply #131 on: Today at 06:31:02 AM »
I always believed that People in the west are Roman-Catholics because they didn't hear anything about Orthodoxy, but as i grew i realized, some Latins really believe in this papal stuff. lol

The guy who is constantly disparaging his own church as a "failure" is probably not in the best position to criticize others for not being a part of it.
Every day we should hear at least one little song, read one good poem, see one exquisite picture, and, if possible, speak a few sensible words. -Goethe

I once heard a monk say, “The person of prayer does not need to go any further than his own heart to find the source of all violence in the world.” -Fr. Stephen Freeman