Author Topic: ZENIT - Ecumenical Patriarch Bartholomew’s Letter to Pope Francis  (Read 419 times)

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https://zenit.org/articles/ecumenical-patriarch-bartholomews-letter-to-pope-francis-on-feast-of-sts-peter-and-paul/

Q: In light of the Council of Crete's document Relations of the Orthodox Church with the Rest of the Christian World no. 6, how are we to understand Patriarch Bartholomew's references to "the most holy Church of Rome" and "the Church in Rome", as below?

Quote
Your Holiness and dear Brother, we have been blessed as guardians of invaluable traditions of divine love and human charity, heirs also of vital truths pertaining to human beings as citizens of the world and citizens of heaven, which we are obliged to preserve in their integrity, remaining faithful to the Lord who “came not to be served, but to serve” (Matt. 20.28) as well as to the venerable founders of the Churches of Rome and Constantinople, the brothers Peter and Andrew, who sealed their witness to His truth on the cross in a manner worthy of Christ. Our endeavors are nurtured by this endless source for the advancement of the journey toward the desired unity of our Churches. The dialogue that continues between the Orthodox Church and the most holy Church of Rome is a domain that produces theological knowledge, ecumenical experience and mutual enrichment. The texts of this dialogue of truth confirm our common Christians models and express our faith that the Truth of the Church is a person – namely, the incarnate, suffering and risen Word of God. Dialogue “in Truth” implies “speaking the truth in love” (cf. Eph. 4.15), “abiding” in love (cf. John 15.9) as “the bond of perfection” (Col. 3.15).

These sentiments and fraternal wishes of congratulations on the occasion of the glorious feast of the Church in Rome will be brought and expressed in person to Your Holiness by our Patriarchal Delegation led by His Eminence Metropolitan Methodios of Boston, accompanied by His Excellency Archbishop Job of Telmessos and the Very Reverend Patriarchal Deacon Nephon Tsimalis.

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Re: ZENIT - Ecumenical Patriarch Bartholomew’s Letter to Pope Francis
« Reply #1 on: June 29, 2016, 08:23:39 PM »
I think Constantinople hadn't fulfilled her share of awkwardness for the Council given the absence of misuses of the word "church" on its documents.
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Offline Porter ODoran

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Re: ZENIT - Ecumenical Patriarch Bartholomew’s Letter to Pope Francis
« Reply #2 on: June 29, 2016, 08:42:50 PM »
Okay, folks. So how exactly is one to refer to our long-lost 1.3 billion souls and their leaders who once shared with ours the fatherhood of the Apostles? Is the problem that he said "the Church[,] in Rome" rather than "the Roman Church"? "Most holy" I'm not going to pretend to fathom, but I assume it is in the nature of an honorific.
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Re: ZENIT - Ecumenical Patriarch Bartholomew’s Letter to Pope Francis
« Reply #3 on: June 29, 2016, 10:12:05 PM »
"Those bastards."

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Re: ZENIT - Ecumenical Patriarch Bartholomew’s Letter to Pope Francis
« Reply #4 on: June 29, 2016, 10:42:53 PM »
I call them "churches" informally (unless I want to annoy my RC friends), but I don't think this term is suitable for ecclesiastical documents. Maybe it's just me, but "Church of Rome" sounds a bit pre-schismy and two-lungsy to my ears, too.

"Those bastards."
LOL  :laugh:
« Last Edit: June 29, 2016, 10:43:43 PM by RaphaCam »
Only-begotten Son and Logos of God, being immortal, you condescended for our salvation to take flesh from the holy Theotokos and ever-virgin Mary and, without change, became man. Christ, our God, you were crucified and conquered death by death. Being one with the Holy Trinity, glorified with the Father and the Holy Spirit: save us.

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Re: ZENIT - Ecumenical Patriarch Bartholomew’s Letter to Pope Francis
« Reply #5 on: June 29, 2016, 11:25:01 PM »
Funny thing. They are the "most holy Church", but we are only "The Orthodox Church".
I thought it was the reverse.

Uhhh, I donno, I think he's just being diplomatic, but it kindda gives me the gibblies.
Death to the world.

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Re: ZENIT - Ecumenical Patriarch Bartholomew’s Letter to Pope Francis
« Reply #6 on: June 29, 2016, 11:30:58 PM »
"Those bastards."

Hippity bistardies.

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Re: ZENIT - Ecumenical Patriarch Bartholomew’s Letter to Pope Francis
« Reply #7 on: June 29, 2016, 11:33:33 PM »
"The Group formerly known as the Church of Rome"
The term planet earth is an innovation which has arisen in recent centuries with the error of heliocentrism.

If one wants to confess a pure doctrine of Orthodoxy, they should be careful not to refer to the earth as a planet, unlike the current Pope as well as Patriarch Kirill and Patriarch Bartholomew, who regularly speak in error when they refer to our planet earth.

Offline Onesimus

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Re: ZENIT - Ecumenical Patriarch Bartholomew’s Letter to Pope Francis
« Reply #8 on: June 29, 2016, 11:34:35 PM »
Well...they're still a historical Apostolic Church. (Even if not Apostolic in teaching).   Maybe this is a recognition of that?  Since the documents of Crete say something to the effect of (paraphrasing) "we accept the historic names of..."

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Re: ZENIT - Ecumenical Patriarch Bartholomew’s Letter to Pope Francis
« Reply #9 on: June 29, 2016, 11:44:47 PM »
Don't worry too much, even in 1895 Ecumenical Patriarch Anthimos referred to the "Western Church" and the "Papal Church" even while cataloging its innovations, and in 1848 the four Patriarchs used the title His Holiness for Pope Pius IX even as they were cataloguing his heresies.
Sources: http://orthodoxinfo.com/ecumenism/encyc_1895.aspx http://orthodoxinfo.com/ecumenism/encyc_1848.aspx

Or....Maybe EP Bartholomew is hipsterdox and he uses "most holy Church" in a subtly ironic way. I bet he has the whole collection of "Death to the World" T-shirts and zines stashed away in a secret corner of the Hagia Sophia  8)
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Well...they're still a historical Apostolic Church. (Even if not Apostolic in teaching).   Maybe this is a recognition of that?  Since the documents of Crete say something to the effect of (paraphrasing) "we accept the historic names of..."

Are they a "historical Apostolic Church"?  They may be the heirs of that history, but ISTM that Relations no. 6 would prevent the EO from affirming it as "a historical Apostolic Church" unless "Church" has more than one meaning for the EO, meanings that are less than "Church" as applied to EO and more than "We grudgingly accept that those other guys use a similar name". 

Certainly calling it "the most holy Church of Rome" seems at least unnecessary.  If it can be described as "most holy" by the EO, what exactly is wrong with it that there's still no intercommunion? 

Offline Onesimus

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Well...they're still a historical Apostolic Church. (Even if not Apostolic in teaching).   Maybe this is a recognition of that?  Since the documents of Crete say something to the effect of (paraphrasing) "we accept the historic names of..."

Are they a "historical Apostolic Church"?  They may be the heirs of that history, but ISTM that Relations no. 6 would prevent the EO from affirming it as "a historical Apostolic Church" unless "Church" has more than one meaning for the EO, meanings that are less than "Church" as applied to EO and more than "We grudgingly accept that those other guys use a similar name". 

Certainly calling it "the most holy Church of Rome" seems at least unnecessary.  If it can be described as "most holy" by the EO, what exactly is wrong with it that there's still no intercommunion?

I simply mean historical as in they have a lineage which is unquestionably founded by the Apostles...not that it is historically in congruence with that history and lineage.  But I see your point.
« Last Edit: Yesterday at 01:39:43 AM by Onesimus »

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Okay, folks. So how exactly is one to refer to our long-lost 1.3 billion souls and their leaders who once shared with ours the fatherhood of the Apostles?



Heretic.  Even their pope said so.
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Offline Porter ODoran

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You can't just call 1.3 billion people and their forbears over 500 years "heretics" and anathematize them. "Heretic" would have little meaning. A heretic is one who works to effect doctrinal schism in the Church, and that requires intent and immediacy. A heretic's children are not anathematized. Nor his great-grandchildren. He is. How much less the great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great (I think that's the right number of "great"s)-grandchildren of those who were simply born into Christian Europe on the wrong side of a geographico-political line at the wrong time ...
« Last Edit: Yesterday at 03:30:45 AM by Porter ODoran »
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Offline Carl Kraeff (Second Chance)

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Okay, folks. So how exactly is one to refer to our long-lost 1.3 billion souls and their leaders who once shared with ours the fatherhood of the Apostles? Is the problem that he said "the Church[,] in Rome" rather than "the Roman Church"? "Most holy" I'm not going to pretend to fathom, but I assume it is in the nature of an honorific.

I agree with you on nomenclature; theologically speaking, "most holy" is as bad as "all holy" whether it applies to persons or institutions. However, it is par for the course for Constantinople, so it should not be taken seriously. That said, in the context of the just concluded Pan-Orthodox meeting, it is a serious faux pas that may cause some folks and churches to question of whether Constantinople wishes to honor the decisions of her own council. Folks may think that Constantinople is demonstrating her self-awareness as First Without Equals.

Offline Vanhyo

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I think by now (Patriarch) Bartholomew have shown his true colors, the entire see of Constantinople is very sick, they are trying to drag the Church into spiritual suicide.

Edited to add clerical title.  Mor Ephrem.
« Last Edit: Yesterday at 12:21:47 PM by Mor Ephrem »

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Don't worry too much, even in 1895 Ecumenical Patriarch Anthimos referred to the "Western Church" and the "Papal Church" even while cataloging its innovations, and in 1848 the four Patriarchs used the title His Holiness for Pope Pius IX even as they were cataloguing his heresies.
Sources: http://orthodoxinfo.com/ecumenism/encyc_1895.aspx http://orthodoxinfo.com/ecumenism/encyc_1848.aspx
This info is very relieving.

You can't just call 1.3 billion people and their forbears over 500 years "heretics" and anathematize them. "Heretic" would have little meaning. A heretic is one who works to effect doctrinal schism in the Church, and that requires intent and immediacy. A heretic's children are not anathematized. Nor his great-grandchildren. He is. How much less the great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great (I think that's the right number of "great"s)-grandchildren of those who were simply born into Christian Europe on the wrong side of a geographico-political line at the wrong time ...
I have the impression the word "heretic" is overused in the West. I haven't read Eastern Patristic polemics, but Western polemics conflate this term with the heterodox they're arguing against, and both Bds. Seraphim Rose and Philaret of NY have criticised a perceived overruse of this term.
« Last Edit: Yesterday at 10:34:59 AM by RaphaCam »
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Offline DeniseDenise

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You can't just call 1.3 billion people and their forbears over 500 years "heretics" and anathematize them. "Heretic" would have little meaning. A heretic is one who works to effect doctrinal schism in the Church, and that requires intent and immediacy. A heretic's children are not anathematized. Nor his great-grandchildren. He is. How much less the great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great (I think that's the right number of "great"s)-grandchildren of those who were simply born into Christian Europe on the wrong side of a geographico-political line at the wrong time ...

You are conflating the 'heretic' part and the 'anathema' part.

The founder or leader of a heretical movement is called a heresiarch, while individuals who espouse heresy or commit heresy are known as heretics.

Continuing along in heretical religion, no matter how far removed from the founder, still makes one a heretic.

Not all heretics are personally anathemetized for their heresy.....since most of them are not -in the Church- to begin with and thus the first sentence of the following would be pointless.

"The two causes for which a person may be anathematized are heresy and schism. Anathematization is only a last resort, and must always be preceded by pastoral attempts to reason with the offender and bring about their restoration.

For the Orthodox, anathema is not final damnation. God alone is the judge of the living and the dead, and up until the moment of death repentance is always possible. The purpose of public anathema is twofold: to warn the one condemned and bring about his repentance, and to warn others away from his error. Everything is done for the purpose of the salvation of souls. "  wikipedia...yea...shoot me for bad references..

So while there may be an anathema on a particular heresy, a decedent of the original heretical group, who is just following along with what they have been taught is still in heresy. Just unknowing heresy. 

If anything, finding the Church and being restored (via Baptism, etc.) would be the goal for these decedents in heresy.

please note, I speak from personal experience here...my ancestors were heretics against the Church, my relatives are still heretics, and I was one until I renounced any shared beliefs with them and was received into the Church.  My ignorance and inheritance of heretical beliefs did not make me not a heretic.  ;)


All opinions expressed by myself are quite tragically my own, and not those of any other poster or wall hangings.

Online Mor Ephrem

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I think by now Bartholomew have shown his true colors, the entire see of Constantinople is very sick, they are trying to drag the Church into spiritual suicide.

Vanhyo,

Please review the forum rules regarding the use of clerical titles, which are required in posts like yours above. 

Consider this a friendly warning. 

Mor Ephrem, section moderator

Offline Porter ODoran

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I think by now (Patriarch) Bartholomew have shown his true colors, the entire see of Constantinople is very sick, they are trying to drag the Church into spiritual suicide.

Edited to add clerical title.  Mor Ephrem.

HAH and the hundreds of other participating bishops are men of God, humble, earnest, desiring the Holy Spirit and the salvation of the world. The present age is full of troubles and confusions to which even these men are necessarily somewhat subject. But your characterization is rash and un-Christian.

"But if ye bite and devour one another, take heed that ye be not consumed one of another."
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I simply mean historical as in they have a lineage which is unquestionably founded by the Apostles...not that it is historically in congruence with that history and lineage.  But I see your point.

I figured you meant that.  But even with that sort of definition, it is difficult, based on (Eastern) Orthodox sources, to dismiss the apostolic origin of the Church of England.  Yet, I don't usually see anyone referring to it or any other Protestant Church in Britain as "apostolic". 

Is it an oversight?  Perhaps.  Maybe if the right people pick this up, we'll see EO leaders sending irenic messages to "the most holy Church of England" or "the Church in England".  But my impression is that "apostolic", as defined above, is usually limited to RC, EO, OO, and Assyrians.  Even in such a diverse group, there is much more "common faith" shared among them than between any one of them and Protestantism, so I don't think "unquestionable apostolic foundation" is the only thing intended by the usage: some sort of "historical congruence" is also implied.   

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"Those bastards."

Hippity bistardies.

heavenly basturma




PS  I'm kinda jealous.  When will we Miaphysites be called "most holy Church of the Jacobites"?
« Last Edit: Yesterday at 04:31:07 PM by minasoliman »
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PS  I'm kinda jealous.  When will we Miaphysites be called "most holy Church of the Jacobites"?

LOL, never.

Offline Porter ODoran

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I simply mean historical as in they have a lineage which is unquestionably founded by the Apostles...not that it is historically in congruence with that history and lineage.  But I see your point.

I figured you meant that.  But even with that sort of definition, it is difficult, based on (Eastern) Orthodox sources, to dismiss the apostolic origin of the Church of England.  Yet, I don't usually see anyone referring to it or any other Protestant Church in Britain as "apostolic". 

Is it an oversight?  Perhaps.  Maybe if the right people pick this up, we'll see EO leaders sending irenic messages to "the most holy Church of England" or "the Church in England".  But my impression is that "apostolic", as defined above, is usually limited to RC, EO, OO, and Assyrians.  Even in such a diverse group, there is much more "common faith" shared among them than between any one of them and Protestantism, so I don't think "unquestionable apostolic foundation" is the only thing intended by the usage: some sort of "historical congruence" is also implied.

The question with the Anglicans is how much of their organic lineage as an ancient church was processed out of them by the very-artificial machinations of the ca. Henry VIII era. (Oh and why couldn't your point be extended to the Danes, for example?)

In my opinion, the same could of course be asked about certain churches that stayed within the nominal Roman fold, such as the church of France which went thru all sorts of remanufacturing from the early modern era thru the Revolution.
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Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy