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Author Topic: USA Today - Pope puts Catholic rebirth at risk: Column  (Read 392 times) Average Rating: 0
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« on: Yesterday at 03:36:33 PM »

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Plans to canonize abuse-tainted pontiffs reveal disconnect.

This Sunday, one week after Easter, Pope Francis is scheduled to canonize two of his predecessors, John Paul II and John XXIII. Few moves could so quickly undo his popular efforts to make the Roman Catholic Church more sensitive to the values of modern churchgoers.

http://www.usatoday.com/story/opinion/2014/04/21/pope-saint-johnpaulii-easter-sex-abuse-column/7980347/

I found the following claim interesting:

Quote
Many faithful plead that being the leader of an institution with 1.2 billion souls is a big job, and that popes can't know everything. The excuse isn't legitimate.

The Catholic bureaucratic structure that links parishes and dioceses to the central-governing Roman Curia is one of the world's most effective communications networks — so much so that it provided invaluable on-the-ground intelligence from behind the Iron Curtain to the Reagan administration during the Cold War. What's playing in Peoria, or rather, who is playing around in Peoria, really does make its way to St. Peter's Basilica.


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« Reply #1 on: Yesterday at 04:17:21 PM »

Lord have mercy.
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« Reply #2 on: Yesterday at 04:30:17 PM »

I find the claim that the Pope should micromanage everything and in fact knows everything happening everywhere to be stretching a bit.

Interestingly, many FSSP-type traditionalists oppose their canonizations, but of course for very different reasons.
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« Reply #3 on: Yesterday at 04:40:24 PM »

I find the claim that the Pope should micromanage everything and in fact knows everything happening everywhere to be stretching a bit.

Interestingly, many FSSP-type traditionalists oppose their canonizations, but of course for very different reasons.

The Pope wants to spread Roman Catholicism by declaring more 'saints' especially the recent Popes as proofs that Papal Infallibility and Papal Supremacy are credible dogmas. As an attempt to cover the recent sexual abuse charges and to validate the New Novus Ordo, it is imperative that people realize that the Roman Catholic church and her Popes are Holy. What better way to accomplish this feat than to canonize these recent Popes?
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« Reply #4 on: Yesterday at 04:54:28 PM »

Don't shelterers of child molesters from earthly justice need patron saints too?

Sorry, God will judge them, not me.  But I sense near zero credibility in certain actions of the RCC.
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« Reply #5 on: Yesterday at 09:15:10 PM »

I thought everyone liked John Paul the 2? Huh
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« Reply #6 on: Yesterday at 09:51:05 PM »

I thought everyone liked John Paul the 2? Huh

Traditionalists don't because  they consider him incredibly scandalous with his less-than-great kind of ecumenical overtures, and his more progressive policies and beliefs. They think canonizing him will solidify these sentiments within the Church (e.g. "this recent pope-saint prayed with non-Christians, kissed the Quran etc. so it has to be a good thing!").

And apparently the folks in the OP don't either.
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« Reply #7 on: Yesterday at 10:07:25 PM »

I wonder if RC hymnographers have the following troparia/kontakia for the canonized Popes.

For Blessed Pope John Paul II

O destroyer of Communism

For Blessed Pope John XXIII

O creator of clown masses
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« Reply #8 on: Yesterday at 10:08:24 PM »

For Blessed Pope John XXIII

O creator of clown masses

You don't know much about Good Pope John, do you?  Tongue
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« Reply #9 on: Yesterday at 10:12:14 PM »

For Blessed Pope John XXIII

O creator of clown masses

You don't know much about Good Pope John, do you?  Tongue

He died while Vatican II was in session.
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« Reply #10 on: Yesterday at 10:22:46 PM »

You don't know much about Good Pope John, do you?  Tongue

He died while Vatican II was in session.

Here.
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« Reply #11 on: Yesterday at 10:51:33 PM »

You don't know much about Good Pope John, do you?  Tongue

He died while Vatican II was in session.

Here.

The site takes a long time to load.   Shocked
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« Reply #12 on: Yesterday at 11:38:11 PM »

I really am conflicted about this. There is so much I admire about both of these Popes, but I can't buy the excuse that "the Pope can't know everything." Obviously there is no way for the Pope to micromanage every action of every priest in the world, but he can certainly mete out uncompromising heavy handed actions regarding the cases he does know about. The perception is that these Popes simply did not take the drastic measures that needed to be taken to curtail these horrors. And I have to say that I think the perception is warranted. Therefore, I do believe that Pope Francis is making a mistake with their canonizations.

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« Reply #13 on: Yesterday at 11:40:06 PM »

The site takes a long time to load.   Shocked

How long is long?  I don't have any significant problems.
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« Reply #14 on: Yesterday at 11:49:05 PM »

The site takes a long time to load.   Shocked

How long is long?  I don't have any significant problems.

Your internet connection is faster than mine (dial-up).

Also, the article did load and Blessed Pope John XXIII was a traditionalist.  Regardless, he convened Vatican II.
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« Reply #15 on: Yesterday at 11:59:22 PM »

Also, the article did load and Blessed Pope John XXIII was a traditionalist.  Regardless, he convened Vatican II.

Sure, but you called him the "creator of clown Masses", and that's just not the case.  It's like arguing that Jesus committed suicide because he called Judas Iscariot to apostleship. 
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« Reply #16 on: Today at 12:03:47 AM »

Also, the article did load and Blessed Pope John XXIII was a traditionalist.  Regardless, he convened Vatican II.

Sure, but you called him the "creator of clown Masses", and that's just not the case.  It's like arguing that Jesus committed suicide because he called Judas Iscariot to apostleship.  

In that case, pardon my ignorance.  When the time comes to beatify Pope Paul VI, I'll reserve the "creator of clown Masses" for him or even come up with a better one, like 'unifier of the Ecumenical Patriarchate'.   angel

Wait, that will be for Pope Francis.  That's why I'm not a RC hymnographer.
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« Reply #17 on: Today at 12:07:45 AM »

Also, the article did load and Blessed Pope John XXIII was a traditionalist.  Regardless, he convened Vatican II.

Sure, but you called him the "creator of clown Masses", and that's just not the case.  It's like arguing that Jesus committed suicide because he called Judas Iscariot to apostleship.  

Is it our job to be overly concerned about Popes being canonized or for that matter what Rome is doing?  Do we secretly envy not having a Popelike figure?  Why this fascination?  Just thinking.....
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« Reply #18 on: Today at 12:19:56 AM »

Also, the article did load and Blessed Pope John XXIII was a traditionalist.  Regardless, he convened Vatican II.

Sure, but you called him the "creator of clown Masses", and that's just not the case.  It's like arguing that Jesus committed suicide because he called Judas Iscariot to apostleship.  

Is it our job to be overly concerned about Popes being canonized or for that matter what Rome is doing?  Do we secretly envy not having a Popelike figure?  Why this fascination?  Just thinking.....

This is why Blessed Pope John Paul II is being canonized:

Example 1, we (e.g. the Vatican, the Roman Catholic Church) need to end Communism - let's select a Polish Pope who officiates Mass before 2 million people in Krakow and implores them not be afraid of a declining Communist power.  Two years later, the Solidarity Movement begins.  A decade later, the Berlin Wall falls.  Six years after death, Pope John Paul II will be beatified and only one more person needs to come forward with a miracle, which occurred after his death, to canonize him as St. Pope John Paul II. 

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« Reply #19 on: Today at 02:27:19 AM »

I know of people who are leaving the RC bc of these 'canonizations'.  The mainstream majority like JPII and don't care, but those with even a little knowledge and concern have grave misgivings about the whole thing.  Most of the them are trying to make excuses like, canonizations are not infallible or he is only in heaven but is not to be imitated.  The whole thing is pretty sad really.
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« Reply #20 on: Today at 03:05:44 AM »

I know of people who are leaving the RC bc of these 'canonizations'. 

Is there more to it than that? Cause by itself that seems like a really strange reason to me...
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« Reply #21 on: Today at 03:29:35 AM »

I know of people who are leaving the RC bc of these 'canonizations'. 

Is there more to it than that? Cause by itself that seems like a really strange reason to me...

Canonizing someone is an infallible act by the Pope, and if he's canonizing a man who everyone knows participated in acts of apostasy basically (assisi 1 and 2 etc) and encouraged it, taught it and never recanted,  then there doesn't need to be more to it than that.  Like I said, there can be some rationalization, but if it is a traditional Catholic, it's not good for their belief in the RC Church. 
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« Reply #22 on: Today at 04:24:06 AM »

The site takes a long time to load.   Shocked

How long is long?  I don't have any significant problems.

I got the site immediately. But, BUT, BUT .. this caught my immediate attention:

Quote
John XXIII in His Own Words (3): Devotion to Saint Pius X and Blessed Pius IX

So it is true after all, they have already beatified Pius IX, and are going to canonize the instigator of the Dogma of Papal Infallibility and Papal Supremacy if they can get away with it. And the RC want unity with Orthodoxy? Hump.

http://www.newliturgicalmovement.org/index.html#7083681948211436301

Quote
 Meekness and humbleness of heart give graciousness in receiving, speaking and dealing with people, and the patience to bear, to pity, to keep silent and to encourage.  Above all, one must always be ready for the Lord’s surprise moves, for although he treats his loved ones well, he generally likes to test them with all sorts of trials such as bodily infirmities, bitterness of soul and sometimes opposition so powerful as to transform and wear out the life of the servant of God, the life of the servant of the servants of God, making it a real martyrdom.  I always think of Pius IX of sacred and glorious memory and, by imitating him in his sufferings, I would like to be worthy to celebrate his canonization.  (Journal, p. 299, between 29 Nov. and 5 Dec. 1959)
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« Reply #23 on: Today at 04:38:47 AM »

Quote
They think canonizing him will solidify these sentiments within the Church (e.g. "this recent pope-saint prayed with non-Christians, kissed the Quran etc. so it has to be a good thing!").

I got so excited about the coming sainthood of Blessed JP the Great that I immediately went out and brought a beautiful copy of the Quran in which I have tirelessly began studying and learning about this wonderful book from the desert prophet (pbuh).

I kiss it every morning to emulate this great man and soon to be saint of the church!

Thank you JPII!

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« Reply #24 on: Today at 08:28:54 AM »

Quote
They think canonizing him will solidify these sentiments within the Church (e.g. "this recent pope-saint prayed with non-Christians, kissed the Quran etc. so it has to be a good thing!").

I got so excited about the coming sainthood of Blessed JP the Great that I immediately went out and brought a beautiful copy of the Quran in which I have tirelessly began studying and learning about this wonderful book from the desert prophet (pbuh).

I kiss it every morning to emulate this great man and soon to be saint of the church!

Thank you JPII!



You asked for it...

Quote from: Shama'il Muhammadiyyah Book 34, Hadith 224
Aamir bin Sa'd radiyallahu anhu says, My father Sa'd said, "Rasoolullah sallallahu alaihe wasallam laughed on the day of the Battle of Khandaq till his teeth showed." Aamir radiyallahu anhu says, "I asked why did he laugh?" he replied, "A Kaafir had a shield, and Sa'd was a great archer. The kaafir protected himself by swaying the shield from side to side covering his forehead. (Sayyidina Sa'd radiyallahu anhu was a famous marksman, but the kaafir did not let the arrows get him). Sa'd radiyallahu anhu took an arrow (and kept it ready in the bow). When the non believer removed the shield from his head, he quickly aimed at the kaafir and did not miss the target, i.e. the (enemy's) forehead. The enemy immediately fell down, his legs rising into the air. On that Rasoolullah sallallahu alaihe wasallam laughed till his mabaraak teeth showed." I asked, "Why did Rasoolullah sallallahu alaihe wasallam laugh?" He replied, "Because of what Sa'd had done to the man."

http://sunnah.com/urn/1802230

So, the Catholic Church endorses this? And you're willing to emulate this?
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« Reply #25 on: Today at 08:53:31 AM »

Quote
They think canonizing him will solidify these sentiments within the Church (e.g. "this recent pope-saint prayed with non-Christians, kissed the Quran etc. so it has to be a good thing!").

I got so excited about the coming sainthood of Blessed JP the Great that I immediately went out and brought a beautiful copy of the Quran in which I have tirelessly began studying and learning about this wonderful book from the desert prophet (pbuh).

I kiss it every morning to emulate this great man and soon to be saint of the church!

Thank you JPII!


LOL
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« Reply #26 on: Today at 10:34:33 AM »

I so wish they canonized Pope Pius XII. I agree with the current two canonizations as there is evidence of their sainthood in miracles and in their actions. To canonize someone does not mean they were sinless, but it is an act that affirms their sainthood; In that being, a sinner like us too, they managed to live the commands of God so well that their sins will never overshadow the work of God in them.


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« Reply #27 on: Today at 11:08:29 AM »

I know of people who are leaving the RC bc of these 'canonizations'.

Is there more to it than that? Cause by itself that seems like a really strange reason to me...

Canonizing someone is an infallible act by the Pope, and if he's canonizing a man who everyone knows participated in acts of apostasy basically (assisi 1 and 2 etc) and encouraged it, taught it and never recanted,  then there doesn't need to be more to it than that.  Like I said, there can be some rationalization, but if it is a traditional Catholic, it's not good for their belief in the RC Church.  

Ok, my unfamiliarity with Catholicism is showing, but if someone could give me clarification on some things that'd be helpful. First, is canonization an act by the Pope, or by the Church as a whole? I assumed that with the (usually) lengthy and formal process involved that it wouldn't just boil down to the Pope? Second, if it does come down to the Pope, is it actually infallible? I've only ever heard that infallibility is something rarely exercised by the Pope, like maybe a few dozen times or maybe as few as two times, but in any event not in rather commonplace cases like glorifying a saint? Third, whether it comes down to the Pope or not, is the process in any way really infallible? I remember reading (perhaps wrongly?) that Catholics have revised their list of saints over the years. Perhaps they simply took some off the calendars to make room for others, but I seem to recall at least some saying that they had essentially revoked the sainthood of certain saints that modern scholars had deemed to mythological or unsubstantiated. Any truth there? And whether there is or isn't, is this really considered an example of infallibility in Catholicism?

Fourth, did Pope John Paul 2 commit apostasy? And did he never recant of this? Why then was not a new Pope elected? Or, was he condemned by either/anyone who followed? Fifth, is such thinking typical in Catholic ecclesiology, that the vicar of Christ and successor of Peter can apostatize and publically teach and endorse his wrong-headed teachings, and yet this doesn't become a big deal unless you try to glorify him as a saint? Can a Pope (can any bishop? any priest? anyone?) reside in some apostatizing middle ground in Catholicism between heretical teaching and right teaching, where he can stay on as pope but trying to glorify him as a saint brings the whole house of cards come tumbling down? Sixth, what was his apostatizing acts, exactly? I know he prayed with people and watched people from different religions do some dances, and he showed culturally-sensitive signs of respect to others, but where was the break, if there was a specific one?

And finally, seventh, the part that has me most confused... this? This? You mean of all the skeletons in the closet of Catholicism*, this is the problem that is making people say: "Well I could be Catholic before, but no more! I draw the line here! This is simply too horrible!"  This is the part that I least understand, why of all the theological problems and misguided actions and sinister popes and corrupt hierarchies in general over the centuries (and again, I don't think any other group escapes these problems), that this in particular would be the breaking point?

Anyway, thanks in advance for anyone who can set me straight here on what I'm not getting. Smiley


* And I think there are skeletons in the closet of every religious group of any significant size and history, since religions have the unavoidable problem of having humans as a central part of running and continuing them.
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« Reply #28 on: Today at 03:12:48 PM »

Asteriktos,

This Catholic Encyclopedia (1907) article helped me to understand the process, it may answer your questions:  Beatification and Canonization.

For my responses below, please preface each one with AFAIK.

Quote
First, is canonization an act by the Pope, or by the Church as a whole? I assumed that with the (usually) lengthy and formal process involved that it wouldn't just boil down to the Pope?

It can be either way.  See “formal canonization and equivalent canonization” in the referenced article.

Quote
Second, if it does come down to the Pope, is it actually infallible? I've only ever heard that infallibility is something rarely exercised by the Pope, like maybe a few dozen times or maybe as few as two times, but in any event not in rather commonplace cases like glorifying a saint?

The answer is generally yes, but it should be noted that the infallible pronouncement is only that the person is in heaven.  See “papal infallibility and canonization” in the referenced article.

Quote
Third, whether it comes down to the Pope or not, is the process in any way really infallible? I remember reading (perhaps wrongly?) that Catholics have revised their list of saints over the years. Perhaps they simply took some off the calendars to make room for others, but I seem to recall at least some saying that they had essentially revoked the sainthood of certain saints that modern scholars had deemed to mythological or unsubstantiated. Any truth there? And whether there is or isn't, is this really considered an example of infallibility in Catholicism?

As much as some non-Catholics like to ride the hobbyhorse of “papal infallibility” as an example of Roman Catholic hubris, or error; the requirements for something the Pope says to be infallible are pretty narrow: (1) The pontiff must teach in his public and official capacity as pastor and doctor of all Christians.  It must be clear that he speaks as spiritual head of the Church universal; (2) He teaches some doctrine of faith or morals; (3) It must be sufficiently evident that he wishes to determine some point of doctrine in an absolutely final and irrevocable way; and (4) It must be clear that the pope intends to bind the whole Church, to demand internal assent from all the faithful to his teaching.

Source.  Catholic Encyclopedia article on Infallibility

Concerning removing saints from the calendar, HERE is a short article on that.

Quote
Fourth, did Pope John Paul 2 commit apostasy? And did he never recant of this? Why then was not a new Pope elected? Or, was he condemned by either/anyone who followed?

Apart from the general Orthodox and Protestant belief that Catholicism in general, and the Pope in particular, is wrong (apostate, heretical, schismatic, misguided, deluded, etc.) about a lot of things, the claim that a particular Pope is apostate usually comes from individuals or extremely small groups of Catholics who think, basically, that the way things were done yesterday is the only correct way to do anything.  If the Pope does or says something that can possibly be interpreted as “liberal,” they will not give him the benefit of the doubt, nor will they consider a charitable way to understand his words/actions.   

Quote
Fifth, is such thinking typical in Catholic ecclesiology, that the vicar of Christ and successor of Peter can apostatize and publically teach and endorse his wrong-headed teachings, and yet this doesn't become a big deal unless you try to glorify him as a saint? Can a Pope (can any bishop? any priest? anyone?) reside in some apostatizing middle ground in Catholicism between heretical teaching and right teaching, where he can stay on as pope but trying to glorify him as a saint brings the whole house of cards come tumbling down?

No (see 4 above), and... when I think of apostasy, I think of theological opinions.  In the secular media the “problem” with the canonization of Pope John Paul II seems to be more centered on his purported mishandling of, or even alleged complicity in the clerical sex abuse cases.

Quote
Sixth, what was his apostatizing acts, exactly? I know he prayed with people and watched people from different religions do some dances, and he showed culturally-sensitive signs of respect to others, but where was the break, if there was a specific one?

You could probably Google this and get more information than you care to know.

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And finally, seventh, the part that has me most confused... this? This?... This is the part that I least understand, why of all the theological problems and misguided actions and sinister popes and corrupt hierarchies in general over the centuries (and again, I don't think any other group escapes these problems), that this in particular would be the breaking point?

I don’t think that this is the breaking point.  However, what it is, is an opportunity for those with any kind of axe to grind against Catholicism (legitimate or not) to have their voice heard (if only on an internet forum).


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Sirach
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Just trying to learn something.


« Reply #29 on: Today at 03:30:02 PM »

From Roman Catholic Fr. John Zuhlsdorf,

"The decision to canonize Blesseds John XXIII and John Paul II at the same time, at the time when we are observing the 50th anniversary of the Second Vatican Council, is a kind of 'canonization' of the Second Vatican Council... The canonizations have even more to do (with) identifying the proper lens or hermeneutic by which we are to interpret the Council... This move is intended to identify John Paul II as our helper in interpreting difficult and controversial aspects of the Council...

John Paul, in his magisterium, commented at some point on virtually every controversial or disputed point in the Council documents and on the event of the Council itself.  He may not have solved, settled, definitively pronounced, on every controversial issue, but he offers commentary and insight on them...

I think what Francis is saying by this is that, if you have a problem with any aspect of the Council, turn to the papal teaching of St. John Paul II for clarifications and help in interpretation..."


Source.  Fr. Z's Blog
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Auryn
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« Reply #30 on: Today at 04:56:41 PM »

I know of people who are leaving the RC bc of these 'canonizations'.

Is there more to it than that? Cause by itself that seems like a really strange reason to me...

Canonizing someone is an infallible act by the Pope, and if he's canonizing a man who everyone knows participated in acts of apostasy basically (assisi 1 and 2 etc) and encouraged it, taught it and never recanted,  then there doesn't need to be more to it than that.  Like I said, there can be some rationalization, but if it is a traditional Catholic, it's not good for their belief in the RC Church.  

Ok, my unfamiliarity with Catholicism is showing, but if someone could give me clarification on some things that'd be helpful. First, is canonization an act by the Pope, or by the Church as a whole? I assumed that with the (usually) lengthy and formal process involved that it wouldn't just boil down to the Pope? Second, if it does come down to the Pope, is it actually infallible? I've only ever heard that infallibility is something rarely exercised by the Pope, like maybe a few dozen times or maybe as few as two times, but in any event not in rather commonplace cases like glorifying a saint? Third, whether it comes down to the Pope or not, is the process in any way really infallible? I remember reading (perhaps wrongly?) that Catholics have revised their list of saints over the years. Perhaps they simply took some off the calendars to make room for others, but I seem to recall at least some saying that they had essentially revoked the sainthood of certain saints that modern scholars had deemed to mythological or unsubstantiated. Any truth there? And whether there is or isn't, is this really considered an example of infallibility in Catholicism?

Fourth, did Pope John Paul 2 commit apostasy? And did he never recant of this? Why then was not a new Pope elected? Or, was he condemned by either/anyone who followed? Fifth, is such thinking typical in Catholic ecclesiology, that the vicar of Christ and successor of Peter can apostatize and publically teach and endorse his wrong-headed teachings, and yet this doesn't become a big deal unless you try to glorify him as a saint? Can a Pope (can any bishop? any priest? anyone?) reside in some apostatizing middle ground in Catholicism between heretical teaching and right teaching, where he can stay on as pope but trying to glorify him as a saint brings the whole house of cards come tumbling down? Sixth, what was his apostatizing acts, exactly? I know he prayed with people and watched people from different religions do some dances, and he showed culturally-sensitive signs of respect to others, but where was the break, if there was a specific one?

And finally, seventh, the part that has me most confused... this? This? You mean of all the skeletons in the closet of Catholicism*, this is the problem that is making people say: "Well I could be Catholic before, but no more! I draw the line here! This is simply too horrible!"  This is the part that I least understand, why of all the theological problems and misguided actions and sinister popes and corrupt hierarchies in general over the centuries (and again, I don't think any other group escapes these problems), that this in particular would be the breaking point?

Anyway, thanks in advance for anyone who can set me straight here on what I'm not getting. Smiley


* And I think there are skeletons in the closet of every religious group of any significant size and history, since religions have the unavoidable problem of having humans as a central part of running and continuing them.


I'm speaking of traditional catholics.

The Pope did not always canonize saints, they were declared saints just by bishops in local areas or by popular acclaim.  But when the Pope canonizes a saint it is considered infallible.  So, yeah, if you believe in Papal Infallibility, and he's canonizing this guy....that's a big problem for some Catholics.  It would mean that Papal Infallibility is wrong and that's a big issue for them. 

As for JPII, he taught modernism and he backed it up with actions.  It's hard to explain to someone who isn't Catholic, but there is huge difference between how a modernist Catholic will see the situation and how traditional ones will see it.  It goes back to Vatican II.  SSPX and other groups reject things from Vatican II because it is modernist and contradicts earlier Church teaching but most Catholics accept it so they don't have a problem with JPII. 
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