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Author Topic: Orthodox v. Catholic: The Consequences of Adam's Sin  (Read 811 times) Average Rating: 0
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Mor Ephrem
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« Reply #45 on: Yesterday at 09:32:47 PM »

The resurrection of the dead has not yet happened.
I don't see the relevance of this to whether or not individuals' souls are in heaven, as we believe they certainly are in the case of canonized Saints. 

The relevance is that, though we speak of canonised saints as if they are in heaven, the resurrection has not happened (at least from our vantage point), and we believe this must happen before people definitively go to heaven or hell. 

Your question, to which I responded with the above, had to do with those who confess, are absolved, and then die.  The implication was that it was remaining temporal punishment that kept people out of heaven after death.  Really, it's the resurrection, both for the "saved" and for the "damned".   

Quote
Quote
2.  We pray to the saints, but we also pray for the saints.  Speaking of there being "no need" to pray for the saints because "they're already in heaven" is foreign to us.  We pray for them because we love them and wish to have fellowship with them. 
While it's excellent to love the saints and wish to have fellowship with them (and to communicate those desires to them), that strikes me as different than praying FOR them (implying they are in need of something).  This could just be a semantic difference, though. 


Perhaps non-Orthodox Christian traditions view prayer for others as implying a deficiency that needs to be resolved, but that is not the case for us: it can mean that, but is not limited to that.  Prayer is communion.  We pray for the saints.  We pray for the Mother of God.  We offer the Liturgy for them, not just in memory of them.  "We remember them that they may remember us", as we pray in the Liturgy of St James.   

Quote
In general, there are quite a few Orthodox prayers for those souls who have departed this life but are not yet in heaven, yes?  Praying for their rest, alleviation of suffering, entrance into the fullness of divine glory, and so on? 

I suspect you are interpreting our tradition in light of your own, which is understandable, but not always helpful. 
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« Reply #46 on: Yesterday at 10:48:58 PM »

The relevance is that, though we speak of canonised saints as if they are in heaven, the resurrection has not happened (at least from our vantage point), and we believe this must happen before people definitively go to heaven or hell.  
Fascinating.  So you don't believe anyone's soul is actually in heaven right now?  Where are they?  Hades?  

Quote
Perhaps non-Orthodox Christian traditions view prayer for others as implying a deficiency that needs to be resolved, but that is not the case for us: it can mean that, but is not limited to that.  Prayer is communion.  We pray for the saints.  We pray for the Mother of God.  We offer the Liturgy for them, not just in memory of them.  "We remember them that they may remember us", as we pray in the Liturgy of St James.    

Again, I suspect this may be a largely semantic difference.  Prayer is certainly more than intercession.  Typically, though, I have only heard the phrase "pray for" used in an intercessory context.  

The larger context of the prayer you referenced is, "We beseech You, Almighty Lord, unite us with the multitudes of the first-born whose names are inscribed in heaven. We remember them that they may also remember us before You and partake with us of this spiritual sacrifice for the preservation of the living, for the encouragement of us, the miserable, and for the rest of the faithful departed, our parents, brethren and masters by Your grace and mercy and of Your Only-begotten Son and of Your Holy Spirit, all holy, good, adorable and life-giving, Who is of one substance with You, now, always and forever."

It's rather clear contextually that we, "the miserable," are testifying to our need for the spiritual aid of them, "the multitudes of the first-born whose names are inscribed in heaven," to be united with them.  Again, I wouldn't describe this, ordinarily, as "praying for" them, but rather for us through their intercession and spiritual help.

Quote
I suspect you are interpreting our tradition in light of your own, which is understandable, but not always helpful.  
Perhaps.  How do you understand such prayers, then?  
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« Reply #47 on: Yesterday at 11:54:24 PM »

Fascinating.  So you don't believe anyone's soul is actually in heaven right now?

Christ is there.  So is our Lady.  Enoch and Elijah, too.  But they have their bodies.  It is the life we live on earth, a life in which soul and body are united, which prepares us either for heaven or for hell.  In the resurrection, soul and body are reunited, and can enjoy the reward or suffer the punishment.  Prior to that, it is but a foretaste...   

Quote
Where are they?  Hades?
 

...a foretaste in Hades or in Paradise. 

Quote
The larger context of the prayer you referenced is, "We beseech You, Almighty Lord, unite us with the multitudes of the first-born whose names are inscribed in heaven. We remember them that they may also remember us before You and partake with us of this spiritual sacrifice for the preservation of the living, for the encouragement of us, the miserable, and for the rest of the faithful departed, our parents, brethren and masters by Your grace and mercy and of Your Only-begotten Son and of Your Holy Spirit, all holy, good, adorable and life-giving, Who is of one substance with You, now, always and forever."

It's rather clear contextually that we, "the miserable," are testifying to our need for the spiritual aid of them, "the multitudes of the first-born whose names are inscribed in heaven," to be united with them.  Again, I wouldn't describe this, ordinarily, as "praying for" them, but rather for us through their intercession and spiritual help.

We remember them...

1.  so that they may remember us

2.  so that they may partake of the sacrifice with us

While you seem to want to focus on #1, I'm arguing that #2 is equally important: if they partake of the sacrifice, it is offered for them.  For example:

Quote
We worship and thank You, O Creator of the worlds and the Framer of creation, the Blessed Root Who sprang forth and came up out of the thirsty ground Mary, and by the scent of Whose glorious sweet fragrance the whole earth was filled, and Who dispelled the foul odor of paganism from all the regions by His glorious teaching. We offer You pure incense after the manner of the priest Aaron, who offered You pure incense by which he withheld the pestilence from the people of Israel. Yea, O Lord God, we beseech You to accept this fragrance of incense which we, in our weakness, offer to You for our sins and our iniquities and for our father Adam and our mother Eve, for the Holy Mother of God, Mary, for the prophets and the apostles, for the just and the righteous, for the martyrs and confessors, for the holy fathers and the doctors of true faith, for the anchorites and the monks, for the rich and the poor, for the orphans and the widows, for the distressed and the afflicted, for the sick and the oppressed and for everyone who has asked and bidden us to remember them in our prayers unto You, O Christ our God,and on behalf of the living and the dead for the rest of their souls in the heavenly Jerusalem. Glory and praise we shall raise up to You and to Your Father and to Your Holy Spirit, now and forever. Amen.

O High Priest and the Lord of Lords, Who entered and dwelt in His Holy Church on the altar, accepting the praises of the angels and the choicest sweet fragrance from all rational, incorporeal and perceptible beings.  Even now, O Lord, accept, with this sweet savor of incense, the praise of our mouths and the thanksgiving of our tongues, and through it, may we receive from You tranquillity for Your people, peace for Your flock, atonement for Your sheep and sweet smelling fragrance for Your Church. With it, grant rest and make good remembrance of Your Mother, Your saints and for all the faithful departed, O Christ the Son, Who are worshiped and glorified with His Father and His Holy Spirit, now and forever. Amen.

http://sor.cua.edu/Liturgy/Anaphora/Prep.html
 
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« Reply #48 on: Today at 08:43:21 AM »

Fascinating.  So you don't believe anyone's soul is actually in heaven right now?

Christ is there.  So is our Lady.  Enoch and Elijah, too.  But they have their bodies.  It is the life we live on earth, a life in which soul and body are united, which prepares us either for heaven or for hell.  In the resurrection, soul and body are reunited, and can enjoy the reward or suffer the punishment.  Prior to that, it is but a foretaste...   

Quote
Where are they?  Hades?
 

...a foretaste in Hades or in Paradise. 

Quote
The larger context of the prayer you referenced is, "We beseech You, Almighty Lord, unite us with the multitudes of the first-born whose names are inscribed in heaven. We remember them that they may also remember us before You and partake with us of this spiritual sacrifice for the preservation of the living, for the encouragement of us, the miserable, and for the rest of the faithful departed, our parents, brethren and masters by Your grace and mercy and of Your Only-begotten Son and of Your Holy Spirit, all holy, good, adorable and life-giving, Who is of one substance with You, now, always and forever."

It's rather clear contextually that we, "the miserable," are testifying to our need for the spiritual aid of them, "the multitudes of the first-born whose names are inscribed in heaven," to be united with them.  Again, I wouldn't describe this, ordinarily, as "praying for" them, but rather for us through their intercession and spiritual help.

We remember them...

1.  so that they may remember us

2.  so that they may partake of the sacrifice with us

While you seem to want to focus on #1, I'm arguing that #2 is equally important: if they partake of the sacrifice, it is offered for them.  For example:

Quote
We worship and thank You, O Creator of the worlds and the Framer of creation, the Blessed Root Who sprang forth and came up out of the thirsty ground Mary, and by the scent of Whose glorious sweet fragrance the whole earth was filled, and Who dispelled the foul odor of paganism from all the regions by His glorious teaching. We offer You pure incense after the manner of the priest Aaron, who offered You pure incense by which he withheld the pestilence from the people of Israel. Yea, O Lord God, we beseech You to accept this fragrance of incense which we, in our weakness, offer to You for our sins and our iniquities and for our father Adam and our mother Eve, for the Holy Mother of God, Mary, for the prophets and the apostles, for the just and the righteous, for the martyrs and confessors, for the holy fathers and the doctors of true faith, for the anchorites and the monks, for the rich and the poor, for the orphans and the widows, for the distressed and the afflicted, for the sick and the oppressed and for everyone who has asked and bidden us to remember them in our prayers unto You, O Christ our God,and on behalf of the living and the dead for the rest of their souls in the heavenly Jerusalem. Glory and praise we shall raise up to You and to Your Father and to Your Holy Spirit, now and forever. Amen.

O High Priest and the Lord of Lords, Who entered and dwelt in His Holy Church on the altar, accepting the praises of the angels and the choicest sweet fragrance from all rational, incorporeal and perceptible beings.  Even now, O Lord, accept, with this sweet savor of incense, the praise of our mouths and the thanksgiving of our tongues, and through it, may we receive from You tranquillity for Your people, peace for Your flock, atonement for Your sheep and sweet smelling fragrance for Your Church. With it, grant rest and make good remembrance of Your Mother, Your saints and for all the faithful departed, O Christ the Son, Who are worshiped and glorified with His Father and His Holy Spirit, now and forever. Amen.

http://sor.cua.edu/Liturgy/Anaphora/Prep.html
 

That just blew my mind. Thank you!
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« Reply #49 on: Today at 09:39:51 AM »

Fascinating.  So you don't believe anyone's soul is actually in heaven right now?

Christ is there.  So is our Lady.  Enoch and Elijah, too.  But they have their bodies.  It is the life we live on earth, a life in which soul and body are united, which prepares us either for heaven or for hell.  In the resurrection, soul and body are reunited, and can enjoy the reward or suffer the punishment.  Prior to that, it is but a foretaste...   

Quote
Where are they?  Hades?
 

...a foretaste in Hades or in Paradise. 

Quote
The larger context of the prayer you referenced is, "We beseech You, Almighty Lord, unite us with the multitudes of the first-born whose names are inscribed in heaven. We remember them that they may also remember us before You and partake with us of this spiritual sacrifice for the preservation of the living, for the encouragement of us, the miserable, and for the rest of the faithful departed, our parents, brethren and masters by Your grace and mercy and of Your Only-begotten Son and of Your Holy Spirit, all holy, good, adorable and life-giving, Who is of one substance with You, now, always and forever."

It's rather clear contextually that we, "the miserable," are testifying to our need for the spiritual aid of them, "the multitudes of the first-born whose names are inscribed in heaven," to be united with them.  Again, I wouldn't describe this, ordinarily, as "praying for" them, but rather for us through their intercession and spiritual help.

We remember them...

1.  so that they may remember us

2.  so that they may partake of the sacrifice with us

While you seem to want to focus on #1, I'm arguing that #2 is equally important: if they partake of the sacrifice, it is offered for them.  For example:

Quote
We worship and thank You, O Creator of the worlds and the Framer of creation, the Blessed Root Who sprang forth and came up out of the thirsty ground Mary, and by the scent of Whose glorious sweet fragrance the whole earth was filled, and Who dispelled the foul odor of paganism from all the regions by His glorious teaching. We offer You pure incense after the manner of the priest Aaron, who offered You pure incense by which he withheld the pestilence from the people of Israel. Yea, O Lord God, we beseech You to accept this fragrance of incense which we, in our weakness, offer to You for our sins and our iniquities and for our father Adam and our mother Eve, for the Holy Mother of God, Mary, for the prophets and the apostles, for the just and the righteous, for the martyrs and confessors, for the holy fathers and the doctors of true faith, for the anchorites and the monks, for the rich and the poor, for the orphans and the widows, for the distressed and the afflicted, for the sick and the oppressed and for everyone who has asked and bidden us to remember them in our prayers unto You, O Christ our God,and on behalf of the living and the dead for the rest of their souls in the heavenly Jerusalem. Glory and praise we shall raise up to You and to Your Father and to Your Holy Spirit, now and forever. Amen.

O High Priest and the Lord of Lords, Who entered and dwelt in His Holy Church on the altar, accepting the praises of the angels and the choicest sweet fragrance from all rational, incorporeal and perceptible beings.  Even now, O Lord, accept, with this sweet savor of incense, the praise of our mouths and the thanksgiving of our tongues, and through it, may we receive from You tranquillity for Your people, peace for Your flock, atonement for Your sheep and sweet smelling fragrance for Your Church. With it, grant rest and make good remembrance of Your Mother, Your saints and for all the faithful departed, O Christ the Son, Who are worshiped and glorified with His Father and His Holy Spirit, now and forever. Amen.

http://sor.cua.edu/Liturgy/Anaphora/Prep.html
 

That just blew my mind. Thank you!

Me too. I was following along. There are a few things I'd wondered about, such as the assumed bodies and who is in heaven (I've been wondering if Moses is there - and separately I wonder if the apostles, saints, and martyrs are there - surely their spirits are???)

But the prayer teaches much. I have not heard this one yet, that i recall. I wonder when it is said?

Thank you for all of this, from me as well.
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Note: I am falling behind in replies during Holy Week - my apologies & I thank everyone for their replies. I read when I can, but can't answer all.

My replies should not be taken as representing Orthodox teaching - I am only just learning myself.

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« Reply #50 on: Today at 10:28:59 AM »

Fascinating.  So you don't believe anyone's soul is actually in heaven right now?

Christ is there.  So is our Lady.  Enoch and Elijah, too.  But they have their bodies.  It is the life we live on earth, a life in which soul and body are united, which prepares us either for heaven or for hell.  In the resurrection, soul and body are reunited, and can enjoy the reward or suffer the punishment.  Prior to that, it is but a foretaste...   

Quote
Where are they?  Hades?
 

...a foretaste in Hades or in Paradise. 

Quote
The larger context of the prayer you referenced is, "We beseech You, Almighty Lord, unite us with the multitudes of the first-born whose names are inscribed in heaven. We remember them that they may also remember us before You and partake with us of this spiritual sacrifice for the preservation of the living, for the encouragement of us, the miserable, and for the rest of the faithful departed, our parents, brethren and masters by Your grace and mercy and of Your Only-begotten Son and of Your Holy Spirit, all holy, good, adorable and life-giving, Who is of one substance with You, now, always and forever."

It's rather clear contextually that we, "the miserable," are testifying to our need for the spiritual aid of them, "the multitudes of the first-born whose names are inscribed in heaven," to be united with them.  Again, I wouldn't describe this, ordinarily, as "praying for" them, but rather for us through their intercession and spiritual help.

We remember them...

1.  so that they may remember us

2.  so that they may partake of the sacrifice with us

While you seem to want to focus on #1, I'm arguing that #2 is equally important: if they partake of the sacrifice, it is offered for them.  For example:

Quote
We worship and thank You, O Creator of the worlds and the Framer of creation, the Blessed Root Who sprang forth and came up out of the thirsty ground Mary, and by the scent of Whose glorious sweet fragrance the whole earth was filled, and Who dispelled the foul odor of paganism from all the regions by His glorious teaching. We offer You pure incense after the manner of the priest Aaron, who offered You pure incense by which he withheld the pestilence from the people of Israel. Yea, O Lord God, we beseech You to accept this fragrance of incense which we, in our weakness, offer to You for our sins and our iniquities and for our father Adam and our mother Eve, for the Holy Mother of God, Mary, for the prophets and the apostles, for the just and the righteous, for the martyrs and confessors, for the holy fathers and the doctors of true faith, for the anchorites and the monks, for the rich and the poor, for the orphans and the widows, for the distressed and the afflicted, for the sick and the oppressed and for everyone who has asked and bidden us to remember them in our prayers unto You, O Christ our God,and on behalf of the living and the dead for the rest of their souls in the heavenly Jerusalem. Glory and praise we shall raise up to You and to Your Father and to Your Holy Spirit, now and forever. Amen.

O High Priest and the Lord of Lords, Who entered and dwelt in His Holy Church on the altar, accepting the praises of the angels and the choicest sweet fragrance from all rational, incorporeal and perceptible beings.  Even now, O Lord, accept, with this sweet savor of incense, the praise of our mouths and the thanksgiving of our tongues, and through it, may we receive from You tranquillity for Your people, peace for Your flock, atonement for Your sheep and sweet smelling fragrance for Your Church. With it, grant rest and make good remembrance of Your Mother, Your saints and for all the faithful departed, O Christ the Son, Who are worshiped and glorified with His Father and His Holy Spirit, now and forever. Amen.

http://sor.cua.edu/Liturgy/Anaphora/Prep.html
 

That just blew my mind. Thank you!

Me too. I was following along. There are a few things I'd wondered about, such as the assumed bodies and who is in heaven (I've been wondering if Moses is there - and separately I wonder if the apostles, saints, and martyrs are there - surely their spirits are???)

But the prayer teaches much. I have not heard this one yet, that i recall. I wonder when it is said?

Thank you for all of this, from me as well.

The above prayer is the Liturgy of St. James the Apostle in the Syrian Rite.
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« Reply #51 on: Today at 02:03:25 PM »

The above prayer is the Liturgy of St. James the Apostle in the Syrian Rite.

Thank you so much.

I'm afraid I don't know what the Syrian Rite is even yet, but I appreciate that.

I did not know there were prayers from St. James the Apostle.

At first opportunity, I will have to look up more information. This is wonderful. Thank you so much.

Blessed Holy Week!
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Note: I am falling behind in replies during Holy Week - my apologies & I thank everyone for their replies. I read when I can, but can't answer all.

My replies should not be taken as representing Orthodox teaching - I am only just learning myself.

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« Reply #52 on: Today at 02:43:41 PM »

... before Vatican II the Catholic Church taught that a person had to do penance to earn forgiveness of their sins by acts of penance...

Fr. Morris, et.al.:

Your observation brought to mind this from the Orthodox Catechism:  "The sacrament of Penance is not limited to a mere confession of sins. It also presupposes recommendations, or sometimes epitimia (penalties) on the part of the priest."

If an Orthodox person fails to comply with all the priest's recommendations, or satisfy all the penalties is the absolution valid?

In Eastern Orthodox penances are not always given, and are the not the same as penances in Roman Catholic theology. In Roman Catholic teaching penances are punishment to satisfy God's demand for temporal punishment. In Eastern Orthodoxy penances rather are to help he penitent with their spiritual growth to avoid further sin.  Thus you cannot compare the two attitudes towards penances.


Fr. Morris, et.al.:

This is an interesting point and, from what preliminary reading I've done, I think I would be in general agreement that the Orthodox and Catholic views on the reasons behind giving penance are at least somewhat different:  treating a moral disease vs. satisfying the penalty for a sinful act.  I cannot, however, categorically maintain that one is correct and the other in error since the Bible portrays God as both physician/healer AND judge (in the present and future). 

Also, even though Catholicism may tend to emphasize the legal aspect it also understands the healing aspect.  As I noted above, the Catholic Catechism, CCC 1422ff, refers to Reconciliation as a sacrament of healing:  “…the sinner is healed and re-established…, the medicine cannot heal what it does not know…, let ourselves be healed by Christ and progress in the life of the Spirit…, lead the penitent with patience toward healing and full maturity…”

Side Note.  From the Orthodox Catechisms I have looked at, the idea of judgment (in the sense of "You are guilty of your sins and there is a price to be paid.") seems to be left to the Final Judgment, while in Catholicism the idea of judgment seems to be integrated into a persons relationship to God in the here and now (as well as the Final Judgment).  This may be why Catholicism considers the legal AND healing nature of the sacrament.

It would be a sin for an Orthodox Christian to refuse to fulfill a penance unless they appeal to their Bishop who has the authority to remove or lessens a penance.

Given this statement I will assume that if an Orthodox person fails to comply with all the priest's recommendations, or satisfy all the penalties (and absent their Bishops intervention) the absolution would be invalid.

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« Reply #53 on: Today at 03:25:28 PM »

It would be a sin for an Orthodox Christian to refuse to fulfill a penance unless they appeal to their Bishop who has the authority to remove or lessens a penance.

Given this statement I will assume that if an Orthodox person fails to comply with all the priest's recommendations, or satisfy all the penalties (and absent their Bishops intervention) the absolution would be invalid.



Not exactly.  You're presuming that an Orthodox "penance" is like a Roman Catholic penance, which is assigned during the confession and which is independent of the sacramental absolution.  The RC penitent leaves confession having received sacramental absolution and then must perform his penance: if he doesn't, it doesn't invalidate the absolution. 

My understanding of the Orthodox practice (I won't speak for Eastern Orthodoxy, Fr John will be able to do that better) is that a proper "penance" must be completed prior to absolution.  So, for example, if I confess to murder, my penance might be a certain period of excommunication, a certain regimen of prayer and fasting, turning myself in to the authorities, etc., and sacramental absolution would be withheld until this was done.  But if I go to confession and confess a "lesser" matter and am given some spiritual advice and some prayers to recite, but am absolved at the time of confession, this is not properly speaking a "penance", even if we might use that term as a form of shorthand.  So there is no question of an invalid absolution if a penance is not completed because, if it's a real penance, there has not yet been an absolution.       
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« Reply #54 on: Today at 03:35:39 PM »

I'm afraid I don't know what the Syrian Rite is even yet, but I appreciate that.

I did not know there were prayers from St. James the Apostle.

At first opportunity, I will have to look up more information. This is wonderful. Thank you so much.

There is time to learn about Syriac Orthodox Christianity, but since you are new to Orthodoxy and learning/praying in a Greek Orthodox parish, it's probably better to focus on the basics.  I cited those prayers because my Church uses them and so it's what comes naturally to me.  But you can see the same concept in the Liturgy used in your parish, where, shortly after the blessing of the bread and the chalice with the words our Lord used at the Last Supper, the priest prays:

Quote
So that they (the consecrated gifts - Mor) may be to those who partake of them for vigilance of soul, forgiveness of sins, communion of Your Holy Spirit, fulfillment of the kingdom of heaven, confidence before You, and not in judgment or condemnation. Again, we offer this spiritual worship for those who repose in the faith, forefathers, fathers, patriarchs, prophets, apostles, preachers, evangelists, martyrs, confessors, ascetics, and for every righteous spirit made perfect in faith.

Especially for our most holy, pure, blessed, and glorious Lady, the Theotokos and ever virgin Mary.


In praying in such a way, we are by no means admitting that our Lady is "especially in need" of prayer as if she was lacking in some way.  Rather, we pray and offer the sacrifice especially for her because we love her specially, but we also pray and offer the sacrifice for all the other saints, for the faithful departed, for the Church, and indeed "for all mankind".  It is, after all, not our sacrifice, but Christ's sacrifice, which he offered once and for all: "Thine own of thine own we offer unto Thee, on behalf of all and for all". 
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« Reply #55 on: Today at 06:08:55 PM »

I'm afraid I don't know what the Syrian Rite is even yet, but I appreciate that.

I did not know there were prayers from St. James the Apostle.

At first opportunity, I will have to look up more information. This is wonderful. Thank you so much.

There is time to learn about Syriac Orthodox Christianity, but since you are new to Orthodoxy and learning/praying in a Greek Orthodox parish, it's probably better to focus on the basics.  I cited those prayers because my Church uses them and so it's what comes naturally to me.  But you can see the same concept in the Liturgy used in your parish, where, shortly after the blessing of the bread and the chalice with the words our Lord used at the Last Supper, the priest prays:

Quote
So that they (the consecrated gifts - Mor) may be to those who partake of them for vigilance of soul, forgiveness of sins, communion of Your Holy Spirit, fulfillment of the kingdom of heaven, confidence before You, and not in judgment or condemnation. Again, we offer this spiritual worship for those who repose in the faith, forefathers, fathers, patriarchs, prophets, apostles, preachers, evangelists, martyrs, confessors, ascetics, and for every righteous spirit made perfect in faith.

Especially for our most holy, pure, blessed, and glorious Lady, the Theotokos and ever virgin Mary.


In praying in such a way, we are by no means admitting that our Lady is "especially in need" of prayer as if she was lacking in some way.  Rather, we pray and offer the sacrifice especially for her because we love her specially, but we also pray and offer the sacrifice for all the other saints, for the faithful departed, for the Church, and indeed "for all mankind".  It is, after all, not our sacrifice, but Christ's sacrifice, which he offered once and for all: "Thine own of thine own we offer unto Thee, on behalf of all and for all". 

Thank you.

It would probably take lifetimes to learn everything. Smiley

I see, yes, that is part of the liturgy, and I do remember it. I understand "especially the Theotokos" to be a special honor to her, not that she is needy.

This is one of those cases where the liturgy goes too fast for me. I hear it, but it takes really thinking about it (for me) to get all of that understanding from it. It takes time, I suppose.

I am very thankful for you to have pointed it out and explained it to me. Smiley

Blessed Pascha!
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Note: I am falling behind in replies during Holy Week - my apologies & I thank everyone for their replies. I read when I can, but can't answer all.

My replies should not be taken as representing Orthodox teaching - I am only just learning myself.

Lord Jesus Christ, have mercy on me, a sinner.
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"Mor is right, you are wrong." - Carl Kraeff
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« Reply #56 on: Today at 06:10:54 PM »

This is one of those cases where the liturgy goes too fast for me. I hear it, but it takes really thinking about it (for me) to get all of that understanding from it. It takes time, I suppose.

It goes too fast for me too, and for the same reason.  Wink
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