Author Topic: The Creed and the Filioque  (Read 1655 times)

0 Members and 2 Guests are viewing this topic.

Offline Wandile

  • Peter the Roman
  • OC.net guru
  • *******
  • Posts: 1,936
  • Love God with All your heart and all your Soul
  • Faith: Holy Catholic Church - Latin
  • Jurisdiction: Archdiocese of Pretoria
Re: The Creed and the Filioque
« Reply #90 on: Yesterday at 03:44:29 AM »
Now I remember why I avoid the Orthodox-Catholic forum. The overwhelming stink of casuistry, and the painful memories of the time in my life when I wanted to join the RCC but couldn't avoid the evidence that she was pompous and deceitful, vindictive and not much of a bride for Christ.

It's better to simply say a method of theology doesn't sit well with you than to call it casuistry. Nobody here calls the sometimes "simple" theology of EO doltish or halfwitted. It's just something I don't appreciate. Preference.

I won't go into your latter statements which are clearly only a matter of opinion.
« Last Edit: Yesterday at 03:47:12 AM by Wandile »
"We shall steer safely through every storm, so long as our heart is right, our intention fervent, our courage steadfast, and our trust fixed on God"
-St. Francis De Sales

Venerable Benedict Daswa and Blessed Isidore Bakanja, Martyrs of Africa, pray for the Church today

Offline Porter ODoran

  • Avid apokatastisist
  • Taxiarches
  • **********
  • Posts: 7,040
  • Faith: Eastern Orthodox
  • Jurisdiction: GOAA
Re: The Creed and the Filioque
« Reply #91 on: Yesterday at 10:29:30 AM »
No it's precisely casuistry. And worse, the will-to-power and the willingness to deceive.
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

Quote from: Seekingtrue
Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy

Offline Xavier

  • Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 84
  • Faith: Roman Catholic
Re: The Creed and the Filioque
« Reply #92 on: Yesterday at 01:24:29 PM »
I think this has become needlessly heated. Catholics and Orthodox would agree in perhaps 95% to 98% of what we confess together, so I think there is no need to attack each other over slight disagreements. If both sides are open to it, the Bishops of both our Churches can come to an agreement over this, in a future Ecumenical Council. In discussing such a lofty doctrine, we should also keep in mind the guiding principle of St. Maximus in the disagreement between Greeks and Latins, the other side "cannot express their meaning in a language and idiom that are foreign to them as precisely as they can in their own mother-tongue, any more than we can do."

Dear Rohzek, the citation from Pope St. Gregory the Great is from Morals on the Book of Job 2:56:92 in PL 75:599A and that of St. Isidore is Etymologies 7:3 in PL 82:268A; these Fathers and Popes speak of the Filioque in the context of consubstantiality and the Triune unity of the divine Essence, as is clearly seen in the context of the works cited. If the procession of the Holy Ghost from the Father is mediated through the Son so that the Most Holy Trinity is One consubstantial and undivided Essence, as these Fathers teach, it is manifest that the doctrine of the Filioque is true.

Indeed, one finds many Fathers who say expressly that it is His being and eternal subsistence that the Holy Ghost receives in the eternal act of procession from the Father mediated through the Son, even St. Maximus, cited in the link Alpo mentioned above "By nature (jusei) the Holy Spirit in his being (kat’ ousian) takes substantially (ousiodwV) his origin (ekporeuomenon) from the Father through the Son who is begotten (di’ Uiou gennhqentoV)" (Quaestiones ad Thalassium, LXIII, PG 90, 672 C)."  St. Hillary, "May I receive your Spirit Who takes His being from You through Your only Son", St. Cyril "the Spirit is from God the Father and, for that matter, from the Son, being poured forth substantially from both, that is to say, from the Father through the Son. [On Worship and Adoration in Spirit and Truth 1 in PG 68:148A] These texts clearly concern the nature/being/essence/substance of the Holy Spirit, thus they describe the mystery of the unity of the Trinitarian Essence. The like doctrine on the procession of the Holy Ghost is found in the Trinitarian Athanasian Creed and in the solemn confession of Faith by Pope St. Hormisdas, in the year of Our Lord 517, "Great and incomprehensible is the mystery of the Trinity. God the Father, God the Son, God the Holy Ghost, an undivided Trinity, and yet it is known because it is characteristic of the Father to generate the Son, characteristic of the Son of God to be born of the Father equal to the Father, characteristic of the Spirit to proceed from Father and Son in one substance of deity" (proprium Spiritus sancti ut de Patre et Filio procederet sub una substantia Deitatis)[PL 63:514B],
Immaculate Mary is the living image of the Church, Bride of God without "stain or blemish" (cf. Eph 5:27, SoS 4:7)

St. Ephraem the Syrian, "Thou alone and Thy Mother are in all things fair; there is no flaw in Thee and no stain in Thy Mother."

St. Proclus of Constantinople, "As He formed Her without any stain of Her own, so He proceeded from Her contracting no stain."

St. Sophronius of Jerusalem, "Many saints appeared before Thee, but ... no one has been purified in advance as Thou hast been"

Offline Porter ODoran

  • Avid apokatastisist
  • Taxiarches
  • **********
  • Posts: 7,040
  • Faith: Eastern Orthodox
  • Jurisdiction: GOAA
Re: The Creed and the Filioque
« Reply #93 on: Yesterday at 02:40:04 PM »
As often as the Latins reference Florence in these threads, I'm starting to think there was a memo they didn't get.
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

Quote from: Seekingtrue
Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy

Offline ialmisry

  • There's nothing John of Damascus can't answer
  • Strategos
  • ******************
  • Posts: 40,555
Re: The Creed and the Filioque
« Reply #94 on: Yesterday at 02:41:38 PM »
As often as the Latins reference Florence in these threads, I'm starting to think there was a memo they didn't get.
yes. Canon 7 of Ephesus.
Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth

Offline Iconodule

  • Professor of Cryptopatristics at Miskatonic University
  • Merarches
  • ***********
  • Posts: 10,436
  • Monsters from the Id
  • Faith: Orthodox Christian
  • Jurisdiction: Ecumenical Patriarchate (ACROD)
Re: The Creed and the Filioque
« Reply #95 on: Yesterday at 02:50:10 PM »
As often as the Latins reference Florence in these threads, I'm starting to think there was a memo they didn't get.
yes. Canon 7 of Ephesus.

But Canon 7 was referring to the original creed of Nicaea...
Quote
But it had not been in Tess's power - nor is it in anybody's power - to feel the whole truth of golden opinions while it is possible to profit by them. She - and how many more - might have ironically said to God with Saint Augustine, "Thou hast counselled a better course than thou hast permitted."
Thomas Hardy, Tess of the D'Urbervilles

Offline byhisgrace

  • OC.net guru
  • *******
  • Posts: 1,030
  • Memory Eternal to my Younger Brother
  • Faith: Orthodox
  • Jurisdiction: GOARCH
Re: The Creed and the Filioque
« Reply #96 on: Yesterday at 09:23:27 PM »
I think this has become needlessly heated. Catholics and Orthodox would agree in perhaps 95% to 98% of what we confess together, so I think there is no need to attack each other over slight disagreements. If both sides are open to it, the Bishops of both our Churches can come to an agreement over this, in a future Ecumenical Council. In discussing such a lofty doctrine, we should also keep in mind the guiding principle of St. Maximus in the disagreement between Greeks and Latins, the other side "cannot express their meaning in a language and idiom that are foreign to them as precisely as they can in their own mother-tongue, any more than we can do."
+1

I will add that these issues are beyond most of our pay-grades, and are best left to the experts in theology, late-antiquity and medieval history, and/or Greek and Latin.
Oh Holy Apostle, St. John, pray for us

Online Rohzek

  • High Elder
  • ******
  • Posts: 644
    • Shameless Orthodoxy
  • Faith: Orthodox and Postpositivist
  • Jurisdiction: Greek Orthodox Archdiocese of America
Re: The Creed and the Filioque
« Reply #97 on: Today at 12:06:58 AM »
Alright in terms of Latin theologians claiming that the Spirit proceeds from the Divine Essence, here is one example. Please note, I am fully aware that the present-day Catholic Church denies this.

Ratramnus of Corbie:

Quote
The Holy Spirit proceeds from the Father because he flows from his substance [Procedit Spiritus sanctus a Patre, illius quia de substantia manat] … and just as the Son received his substance from the Father by being begotten, so also he received from the Father the ability to send the Spirit of Truth from himself through proceeding…. For just as the Father and the Son are of one substance, so too by procession from both did the Holy Spirit receive his consubstantial existence [sic et de utroque procedendo Spiritus sanctus accepit consubstantialitatis existentiam].

Ratramnus of Corbie, Contra Graecorum Opposita Romanam Ecclesiam Infamantium (PL 121, 225–346) As translated in Siecienski
"What I have shown you is reality. What you remember, that is the illusion." - Sephiroth from Final Fantasy VII

“Fools have a habit of believing that everything written by a famous author is admirable. For my part I read only to please myself and like only what suits my taste.” - Lord Pococurante in Candide by Voltaire

Check out my new blog: Shameless Orthodoxy Latest Post:  Latin Divorce & Remarriage: A Forgotten History

Offline Mor Ephrem

  • ʿalayhi al-salām
  • Section Moderator
  • Protospatharios
  • *****
  • Posts: 29,178
  • Abp Yeznik Petrosian Defender of the Faith
    • OrthodoxChristianity.net
  • Faith: Orthodox
  • Jurisdiction: East
Re: The Creed and the Filioque
« Reply #98 on: Today at 10:11:46 AM »
Alright in terms of Latin theologians claiming that the Spirit proceeds from the Divine Essence, here is one example. Please note, I am fully aware that the present-day Catholic Church denies this.

Ratramnus of Corbie:

Quote
The Holy Spirit proceeds from the Father because he flows from his substance [Procedit Spiritus sanctus a Patre, illius quia de substantia manat] … and just as the Son received his substance from the Father by being begotten, so also he received from the Father the ability to send the Spirit of Truth from himself through proceeding…. For just as the Father and the Son are of one substance, so too by procession from both did the Holy Spirit receive his consubstantial existence [sic et de utroque procedendo Spiritus sanctus accepit consubstantialitatis existentiam].

Ratramnus of Corbie, Contra Graecorum Opposita Romanam Ecclesiam Infamantium (PL 121, 225–346) As translated in Siecienski

Since the Spirit receives the same divine substance as the Father and the Son, does the Spirit also proceed from himself? 
Quote from: Fr Alexander Schmemann
The Gospel is quite clear: both saints and sinners love God. "Religious" people do not love him, and whenever they can, they crucify him.

Of course, OC.net is not reflective of the Church, but is rather a surreal bubble. I have visited a lot of different parishes around the world and have listened to many hours of AFR...

Offline Wandile

  • Peter the Roman
  • OC.net guru
  • *******
  • Posts: 1,936
  • Love God with All your heart and all your Soul
  • Faith: Holy Catholic Church - Latin
  • Jurisdiction: Archdiocese of Pretoria
Re: The Creed and the Filioque
« Reply #99 on: Today at 11:58:21 AM »
Alright in terms of Latin theologians claiming that the Spirit proceeds from the Divine Essence, here is one example. Please note, I am fully aware that the present-day Catholic Church denies this.

Ratramnus of Corbie:

Quote
The Holy Spirit proceeds from the Father because he flows from his substance [Procedit Spiritus sanctus a Patre, illius quia de substantia manat] … and just as the Son received his substance from the Father by being begotten, so also he received from the Father the ability to send the Spirit of Truth from himself through proceeding…. For just as the Father and the Son are of one substance, so too by procession from both did the Holy Spirit receive his consubstantial existence [sic et de utroque procedendo Spiritus sanctus accepit consubstantialitatis existentiam].

Ratramnus of Corbie, Contra Graecorum Opposita Romanam Ecclesiam Infamantium (PL 121, 225–346) As translated in Siecienski

Yeah this guys was wrong to say he proceed from the essence.
« Last Edit: Today at 11:58:42 AM by Wandile »
"We shall steer safely through every storm, so long as our heart is right, our intention fervent, our courage steadfast, and our trust fixed on God"
-St. Francis De Sales

Venerable Benedict Daswa and Blessed Isidore Bakanja, Martyrs of Africa, pray for the Church today

Offline Wandile

  • Peter the Roman
  • OC.net guru
  • *******
  • Posts: 1,936
  • Love God with All your heart and all your Soul
  • Faith: Holy Catholic Church - Latin
  • Jurisdiction: Archdiocese of Pretoria
Re: The Creed and the Filioque
« Reply #100 on: Today at 11:59:29 AM »
Alright in terms of Latin theologians claiming that the Spirit proceeds from the Divine Essence, here is one example. Please note, I am fully aware that the present-day Catholic Church denies this.

Ratramnus of Corbie:

Quote
The Holy Spirit proceeds from the Father because he flows from his substance [Procedit Spiritus sanctus a Patre, illius quia de substantia manat] … and just as the Son received his substance from the Father by being begotten, so also he received from the Father the ability to send the Spirit of Truth from himself through proceeding…. For just as the Father and the Son are of one substance, so too by procession from both did the Holy Spirit receive his consubstantial existence [sic et de utroque procedendo Spiritus sanctus accepit consubstantialitatis existentiam].

Ratramnus of Corbie, Contra Graecorum Opposita Romanam Ecclesiam Infamantium (PL 121, 225–346) As translated in Siecienski

Since the Spirit receives the same divine substance as the Father and the Son, does the Spirit also proceed from himself?

This is the very reason why he is wrong and the Catholic Church does not teach this as evidenced by the Fourth Lateran council
"We shall steer safely through every storm, so long as our heart is right, our intention fervent, our courage steadfast, and our trust fixed on God"
-St. Francis De Sales

Venerable Benedict Daswa and Blessed Isidore Bakanja, Martyrs of Africa, pray for the Church today

Online Cavaradossi

  • 法網恢恢,疏而不漏
  • OC.net guru
  • *******
  • Posts: 1,890
Re: The Creed and the Filioque
« Reply #101 on: Today at 01:04:21 PM »
Alright in terms of Latin theologians claiming that the Spirit proceeds from the Divine Essence, here is one example. Please note, I am fully aware that the present-day Catholic Church denies this.

Ratramnus of Corbie:

Quote
The Holy Spirit proceeds from the Father because he flows from his substance [Procedit Spiritus sanctus a Patre, illius quia de substantia manat] … and just as the Son received his substance from the Father by being begotten, so also he received from the Father the ability to send the Spirit of Truth from himself through proceeding…. For just as the Father and the Son are of one substance, so too by procession from both did the Holy Spirit receive his consubstantial existence [sic et de utroque procedendo Spiritus sanctus accepit consubstantialitatis existentiam].

Ratramnus of Corbie, Contra Graecorum Opposita Romanam Ecclesiam Infamantium (PL 121, 225–346) As translated in Siecienski

Yeah this guys was wrong to say he proceed from the essence.

But the solution the Latins eventually came up with—procession from the Father and the Son as one principle—creates similar problems.
Be comforted, and have faith, O Israel, for your God is infinitely simple and one, composed of no parts.

Offline Papist

  • Patriarch of Pontification
  • Toumarches
  • ************
  • Posts: 13,686
Re: The Creed and the Filioque
« Reply #102 on: Today at 02:59:37 PM »
Looks like the Creed issues has been all sorted out on this thread. </schism>

LOL. Papist, you are always a breath of fresh air.

Haven't seen you, in a while. Welcome back! :)

Thank you very much. :) It's nice to pop in every once in a while.
"For, by its immensity, the divine substance surpasses every form that our intellect reaches. Thus we are unable to apprehend it by knowing what it is. Yet we are able to have some knowledge of it by knowing what it is not." - St. Thomas Aquinas, Summa contra gentiles, I, 14.

Offline Papist

  • Patriarch of Pontification
  • Toumarches
  • ************
  • Posts: 13,686
Re: The Creed and the Filioque
« Reply #103 on: Today at 03:42:49 PM »
Wouldn't it be cool if we could have one of these threads without snarky sarcasm - you know a thread where everyone is mutually respectful of one another, and arguments were limited to substance.

<returns to reality>
"For, by its immensity, the divine substance surpasses every form that our intellect reaches. Thus we are unable to apprehend it by knowing what it is. Yet we are able to have some knowledge of it by knowing what it is not." - St. Thomas Aquinas, Summa contra gentiles, I, 14.

Offline Wandile

  • Peter the Roman
  • OC.net guru
  • *******
  • Posts: 1,936
  • Love God with All your heart and all your Soul
  • Faith: Holy Catholic Church - Latin
  • Jurisdiction: Archdiocese of Pretoria
Re: The Creed and the Filioque
« Reply #104 on: Today at 03:50:48 PM »
Alright in terms of Latin theologians claiming that the Spirit proceeds from the Divine Essence, here is one example. Please note, I am fully aware that the present-day Catholic Church denies this.

Ratramnus of Corbie:

Quote
The Holy Spirit proceeds from the Father because he flows from his substance [Procedit Spiritus sanctus a Patre, illius quia de substantia manat] … and just as the Son received his substance from the Father by being begotten, so also he received from the Father the ability to send the Spirit of Truth from himself through proceeding…. For just as the Father and the Son are of one substance, so too by procession from both did the Holy Spirit receive his consubstantial existence [sic et de utroque procedendo Spiritus sanctus accepit consubstantialitatis existentiam].

Ratramnus of Corbie, Contra Graecorum Opposita Romanam Ecclesiam Infamantium (PL 121, 225–346) As translated in Siecienski

Yeah this guys was wrong to say he proceed from the essence.

But the solution the Latins eventually came up with—procession from the Father and the Son as one principle—creates similar problems.

That's your opinion. I obviously , together with the Catholic Church, believe something different.
"We shall steer safely through every storm, so long as our heart is right, our intention fervent, our courage steadfast, and our trust fixed on God"
-St. Francis De Sales

Venerable Benedict Daswa and Blessed Isidore Bakanja, Martyrs of Africa, pray for the Church today

Online Cavaradossi

  • 法網恢恢,疏而不漏
  • OC.net guru
  • *******
  • Posts: 1,890
Re: The Creed and the Filioque
« Reply #105 on: Today at 04:16:27 PM »
Alright in terms of Latin theologians claiming that the Spirit proceeds from the Divine Essence, here is one example. Please note, I am fully aware that the present-day Catholic Church denies this.

Ratramnus of Corbie:

Quote
The Holy Spirit proceeds from the Father because he flows from his substance [Procedit Spiritus sanctus a Patre, illius quia de substantia manat] … and just as the Son received his substance from the Father by being begotten, so also he received from the Father the ability to send the Spirit of Truth from himself through proceeding…. For just as the Father and the Son are of one substance, so too by procession from both did the Holy Spirit receive his consubstantial existence [sic et de utroque procedendo Spiritus sanctus accepit consubstantialitatis existentiam].

Ratramnus of Corbie, Contra Graecorum Opposita Romanam Ecclesiam Infamantium (PL 121, 225–346) As translated in Siecienski

Yeah this guys was wrong to say he proceed from the essence.

But the solution the Latins eventually came up with—procession from the Father and the Son as one principle—creates similar problems.

That's your opinion. I obviously , together with the Catholic Church, believe something different.

Doesn't that strike you as a rather fatuous remark? All people can offer is an opinion.
Be comforted, and have faith, O Israel, for your God is infinitely simple and one, composed of no parts.