Author Topic: Patriarch John Bekkus rejected (at Lyons) the Monopatrism of Photius.  (Read 268 times)

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Offline Xavier

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Wiki says "The basis of John Bekkos’s quarrel with his contemporaries was a disagreement with them over the implications of a traditional patristic formula, that states that the Holy Spirit proceeds from the Father through the Son (in Greek, διὰ τοῦ Υἱοῦ). Already in the ninth century, this expression was being pushed in two different directions: Latin writers saw it as implying the Augustinian doctrine that the Holy Spirit proceeds from the Father and the Son (Filioque); Greek writers, especially from the time of Patriarch Photios onward, saw it as consistent with the view that the Holy Spirit proceeds from the Father alone. Bekkos originally agreed with the Photian view, but his reading of the Greek fathers, and of medieval Greek writers like Nicephorus Blemmydes and Nicetas of Maroneia, caused him to change his mind. Much of John XI Bekkos’s debate with Gregory II was a debate over the meaning of texts from St. Cyril and other fathers, whose wording (the Spirit “exists from the Son”; the Spirit “fountains forth eternally” from the Son, etc.) Bekkos saw as consistent with the Latin doctrine, while Gregory of Cyprus interpreted such texts as necessarily referring to an eternal manifestation of the Holy Spirit through or from the Son. This thirteenth-century debate has considerable relevance for current-day ecumenical discussions between the Orthodox Church and the Roman Catholic Church."

1. The two texts of relevance are the dogmatic confession of St. Tarasius, Patriarch of Constantinople at Nicaea II, "το Πνευμα το αγιον, το κυριον και ζωοποιον, το εκ του Πατροσ δια του Υιου εκπορευομενον." the Church believes "in the Holy Spirit, Who proceeds from the Father through the Son, and Who is acknowledged to be Himself God." A plain and explicit statement proving the doctrine of St. Augustine, for this can only refer to the divine Essence. Firstly, the Saintly Patriarch said the hypostasis of the Spirit, the same Who Proceeds from the Father, proceeds through the Son. Second, St. Tarasius also says He Who Proceeds through the Son is acknowledged to be Himself God by nature, which clearly refers to the divine hypostasis of the Spirit. If, as some of the Greeks hold, Patriarch Tarasius wished to say something absurd like, "Although the Person of the Spirit proceeds from the Father, yet we must dogmatically confess only that (allegedly) the grace and energies and these alone of the Spirit are mediated through the Son", he would have done so. That's not what he said. [Original text and Greek here http://catholicpatristics.blogspot.in/2009/08/filioque.html]

2. The two texts of St. Cyril " the Spirit is from God the Father and, for that matter, from the Son, being poured forth substantially from both, that is to say, from the Father through the Son." and [/i]"in that the Son is God, and from God according to nature (for He has had His birth from God the Father), the Spirit is both proper to Him and in Him and from Him, just as, to be sure, the same thing is understood to hold true in the case of God the Father Himself."[/i] These texts are so wondrously clear that to add anything to them by way of commentary is to subtract from them.

Gregory II is wrong, and Patriarch Bekkos is right. He and many others of the learned Greeks were able to convincingly show after lengthy study that hypostatic procession of the Spirit mediated through the Son (i.e. the eternal act of spiration of the Spirit from the Father, where the Spirit receives His divine hypostasis, is eternally through the Son) is clearly the teaching of the Greek Fathers, in admirable agreement with the Latin Fathers.
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Offline Alpo

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Re: Patriarch John Bekkus rejected (at Lyons) the Monopatrism of Photius.
« Reply #1 on: November 30, 2017, 04:33:57 AM »
And Pope Saint John Paul II accepted the Monopatrism of Photius. Haters gonna hate.  8)

Anyway, this is silly. No Orthodox particularly cares what happened at Lyons. We are Orthodox. It wasn't our council.
« Last Edit: November 30, 2017, 04:35:20 AM by Alpo »
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Offline Rohzek

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Re: Patriarch John Bekkus rejected (at Lyons) the Monopatrism of Photius.
« Reply #2 on: November 30, 2017, 10:29:42 AM »
I am actually intensely interested right now in this thirteenth-century showdown between John Beccus and Gregory II. Both of them have very serious arguments and I have not yet decided who is more right on this issue. I am leaning towards Gregory II at the moment. At any rate, I'm primarily interested so as to understand some previous Latin Fathers on the issue, such as St. Faustus of Riez. In short, whose theology reconciles with the majority of the Latin Fathers? This is a question that I am seeking to answer myself at the moment.

I disagree with your interpretation of St. Cyril of Alexandria, however Xavier. Besides, I am not certain why you think the term "substantially" is so significant to your case. It is the Orthodox position that at least in Greek, the terms from the Son and through the Son are quite different in meaning. We will not compromise on this issue.
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Offline Vanhyo

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Re: Patriarch John Bekkus rejected (at Lyons) the Monopatrism of Photius.
« Reply #3 on: November 30, 2017, 12:35:58 PM »
Speaking of the false union of lyons, when the patriarch of constantinople accepted the so called unia, the monks of mount athos removed his name from the diptychs, excommunicating him from the Church, in return the emperor send some latins to the holy mountain to enforce the unia by the sword, the rest of the story is well known, how the Lord and His Mother intervened and repudiated both, the latins and the monks who accepted the unia. Their accursed corpses are located even today in a cave, so their dreadful look can serve as a remainder of what took place.

And the holy martyrs, who refused the unia were glorified by God in another miraculous event.
« Last Edit: November 30, 2017, 12:39:26 PM by Vanhyo »

Offline Wandile

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Speaking of the false union of lyons, when the patriarch of constantinople accepted the so called unia, the monks of mount athos removed his name from the diptychs, excommunicating him from the Church, in return the emperor send some latins to the holy mountain to enforce the unia by the sword, the rest of the story is well known, how the Lord and His Mother intervened and repudiated both, the latins and the monks who accepted the unia. Their accursed corpses are located even today in a cave, so their dreadful look can serve as a remainder of what took place.

And the holy martyrs, who refused the unia were glorified by God in another miraculous event.

Tales like this exist for both Catholics and Orthodox. I don’t think these do anything to prove either case.
During the Iconoclastic Crisis, Stephen the Faster challenged the assembled Bishops at Hiereia:

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Offline Porter ODoran

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Speaking of the false union of lyons, when the patriarch of constantinople accepted the so called unia, the monks of mount athos removed his name from the diptychs, excommunicating him from the Church, in return the emperor send some latins to the holy mountain to enforce the unia by the sword, the rest of the story is well known, how the Lord and His Mother intervened and repudiated both, the latins and the monks who accepted the unia. Their accursed corpses are located even today in a cave, so their dreadful look can serve as a remainder of what took place.

And the holy martyrs, who refused the unia were glorified by God in another miraculous event.

Tales like this exist for both Catholics and Orthodox. I don’t think these do anything to prove either case.

Really? A Pope successfully excommunicated by a powerful pious subset of the church, in spite of armed coercion? You mean Avignon?
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Offline Wandile

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Speaking of the false union of lyons, when the patriarch of constantinople accepted the so called unia, the monks of mount athos removed his name from the diptychs, excommunicating him from the Church, in return the emperor send some latins to the holy mountain to enforce the unisex  by the sword, the rest of the story is well known, how the Lord and His Mother intervened and repudiated both, the latins and the monks who accepted the unia. Their accursed corpses are located even today in a cave, so their dreadful look can serve as a remainder of what took place.

And the holy martyrs, who refused the unia were glorified by God in another miraculous event.

Tales like this exist for both Catholics and Orthodox. I don’t think these do anything to prove either case.

Really? A Pope successfully excommunicated by a powerful pious subset of the church, in spite of armed coercion? You mean Avignon?

No because a pope can’t be excommunicated.

Besides I meant miracles against supposed heretics or schismatics. Like St Dominic’s miracle against the Albigensian heretics with the trial by fire.
During the Iconoclastic Crisis, Stephen the Faster challenged the assembled Bishops at Hiereia:

"How can you call a council ecumenical when the bishop of Rome has not given his consent, and the canons forbid ecclesiastical affairs to be decided without the pope of Rome?"
-Stephen the Faster

Venerable Benedict Daswa, Blessed Isidore Bakanja and St Charles Lwanga, martyrs, pray for the Church today


You are welcome to send me private messages but I don't post publicly anymore

Offline Porter ODoran

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No because a pope can’t be excommunicated.

The Pope was excommunicated for almost a thousand years. Hence, the forum you are on. Try to keep up.
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

Quote from: Seekingtrue
Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy