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Author Topic: St Therese  (Read 647 times) Average Rating: 0
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« Reply #45 on: Yesterday at 01:31:43 AM »

But that's moving the goal post. The question is not whether or not someone is Orthodox or whether or not the Church venerates them. The question is personal veneration. Unless you are going to say that only people who were visible members of the Orthodox Church can go to heaven then they are there and they can pray for us just like anyone else.

Are you in a position to determine that Therese in no way consciously rejected the Orthodox Church at any point in her life? Are you in a position to verify that Therese is with God and his saints?

You should be praying for Therese's soul. Not to her.

I'm in no position to know what anyone is thinking but I can see and I can think. No one does anything good without the Holy Spirit.

Not all good works lead to salvation either.
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« Reply #46 on: Yesterday at 01:32:36 AM »

But that's moving the goal post. The question is not whether or not someone is Orthodox or whether or not the Church venerates them. The question is personal veneration. Unless you are going to say that only people who were visible members of the Orthodox Church can go to heaven then they are there and they can pray for us just like anyone else.

Are you in a position to determine that Therese in no way consciously rejected the Orthodox Church at any point in her life? Are you in a position to verify that Therese is with God and his saints?

You should be praying for Therese's soul. Not to her.

I'm in no position to know what anyone is thinking but I can see and I can think. No one does anything good without the Holy Spirit.

Not all good works lead to salvation either.



That's not the question.  Smiley
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« Reply #47 on: Yesterday at 01:34:01 AM »

But that's moving the goal post. The question is not whether or not someone is Orthodox or whether or not the Church venerates them. The question is personal veneration. Unless you are going to say that only people who were visible members of the Orthodox Church can go to heaven then they are there and they can pray for us just like anyone else.


SO basically you have zero problem that I go to my icon corner and venerate my lovely lovely icon of Calvin?





No one, and I mean NO ONE, can be snarky about that beard.  EO, OO, RC...the beard is worthy of veneration.  AND he has a special hat.
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« Reply #48 on: Yesterday at 01:35:16 AM »

But that's moving the goal post. The question is not whether or not someone is Orthodox or whether or not the Church venerates them. The question is personal veneration. Unless you are going to say that only people who were visible members of the Orthodox Church can go to heaven then they are there and they can pray for us just like anyone else.

Are you in a position to determine that Therese in no way consciously rejected the Orthodox Church at any point in her life? Are you in a position to verify that Therese is with God and his saints?

You should be praying for Therese's soul. Not to her.

I'm in no position to know what anyone is thinking but I can see and I can think. No one does anything good without the Holy Spirit.

Not all good works lead to salvation either.



That's not the question.  Smiley

If someone hasn't achieved the greatest of all goals, why should we venerate them again?
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« Reply #49 on: Yesterday at 01:37:08 AM »

But that's moving the goal post. The question is not whether or not someone is Orthodox or whether or not the Church venerates them. The question is personal veneration. Unless you are going to say that only people who were visible members of the Orthodox Church can go to heaven then they are there and they can pray for us just like anyone else.

Are you in a position to determine that Therese in no way consciously rejected the Orthodox Church at any point in her life? Are you in a position to verify that Therese is with God and his saints?

You should be praying for Therese's soul. Not to her.

I'm in no position to know what anyone is thinking but I can see and I can think. No one does anything good without the Holy Spirit.

Not all good works lead to salvation either.



That's not the question.  Smiley

If someone hasn't achieved the greatest of all goals, why should we venerate them again?


We wouldn't.
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« Reply #50 on: Yesterday at 01:41:00 AM »

and did she live her life in accordance with it's teachings?


It's entirely possible she lived her life in more accord with Christ's teachings than any of us.  Wink

.... but the fact remains that she was never part of the Orthodox Church, therefore she cannot be venerated as an Orthodox saint.


No one is talking about the Church venerating her as a saint.

Are not our homes and prayer corners supposed to be a "little church"?


There are lots of people venerated at home that are not canonized by the Church. How are saints canonized if not by popular veneration?


unfortunately using -that- logic in this case.....is not useful.

Popular veneration of an Orthodox holy person can lead to them being recognized as a Saint, but you can't apply that to a Catholic person or a Protestant person.

i.e. Just because I decide to venerate Calvin, doesn't make him suitable for later Sainthood.




Another ridiculous example. Arius = Calvin = St Therese is silly. We are rational creatures. We can look at a person's life and make a rational judgement that they led a holy life. Everything outside of Orthodoxy is not evil.  Wink

Everything outside of Orthodoxy is not good either. Only within the Church can we be guaranteed that, and only within the Church can we be shown for sure what constitutes a holy life.  


I don't think that's the case at all. There have been many non-Orthodox who were holy.

Some food for thought from a wise old hieromonk of blessed memory, Averky of Jordanville:

It seems to be a new fad to paint “icons” of secular, non-Orthodox, or even non-Christian persons. While in the worldly sense, they might have lived good and decent lives, it simply is not possible to portray them in an iconographical manner from the Orthodox point of view. Since all icons are a reflection of Christ, and since the saints, as St Ignatius of Stavropol says, “express in themselves daily, the Holy Trinity”, and since the Holy Spirit can only reside where there is Truth, then non-Orthodox people cannot achieve that sanctity which would put them in the same spiritual realm as St Nicholas the Wonderworker, the Great-martyr Catherine, or St John of Shanghai and San Francisco.

It is for God alone to judge the souls of the non-Orthodox, but how could one list them as among the saints? Each generation of mankind has produced its heroes, great generals, great rulers, and so on, but it is the province of Christ’s Church, the Holy Orthodox Church alone, to set aside those who are to be venerated as saints. The memories and lives of great men and women most certainly can be respected and held up as a good example, but the appellation saint, is in another realm completely.
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« Reply #51 on: Yesterday at 01:44:19 AM »

But that's moving the goal post. The question is not whether or not someone is Orthodox or whether or not the Church venerates them. The question is personal veneration. Unless you are going to say that only people who were visible members of the Orthodox Church can go to heaven then they are there and they can pray for us just like anyone else.


SO basically you have zero problem that I go to my icon corner and venerate my lovely lovely icon of Calvin?





No one, and I mean NO ONE, can be snarky about that beard.  EO, OO, RC...the beard is worthy of veneration.  AND he has a special hat.



The same exact things can be said of these two........shall we venerate?


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« Reply #52 on: Yesterday at 01:47:38 AM »

The number of troparia those guys have written..... Grin
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« Reply #53 on: Yesterday at 05:16:40 AM »

Well Lord, a good nights rest of sleep and I come back to all this  Grin Thanks for all your posts guys but I'm thinking private veneration is okay Because for sure Therese lived a more holy life then me and was very very very wanting to suffer for Christ.
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« Reply #54 on: Yesterday at 05:42:51 AM »

The number of troparia those guys have written..... Grin

Including the official anthem of the menswear thread. Grin
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« Reply #55 on: Yesterday at 06:15:45 AM »

Well Lord, a good nights rest of sleep and I come back to all this  Grin Thanks for all your posts guys but I'm thinking private veneration is okay Because for sure Therese lived a more holy life then me and was very very very wanting to suffer for Christ.

Even more reason for you to speak to your priest about this matter, and other matters you have raised on other threads.
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« Reply #56 on: Yesterday at 07:12:58 AM »

I have seen on a video of a Coptic monk, Father Lazarus, who has an icon of St. Therese in his cave.

EDIT: Here is the link.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ullyc2PrikU
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« Reply #57 on: Yesterday at 07:20:16 AM »

I have seen on a video of a Coptic monk, Father Lazarus, that he has an icon of St. Therese in his cave.

EDIT: Here is the link.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ullyc2PrikU

The only icon I saw in that clip was one of the Mother of God.
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« Reply #58 on: Yesterday at 07:22:34 AM »

Yeah, I just watched it again and didn't see it... I know I saw it in one of the videos with him. I'll look for it.
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« Reply #59 on: Yesterday at 08:40:14 AM »

I also very much like St Therese, and was very touched by "The Story of a Soul". If only all of us could love Jesus and His Mother as much as she did!

FWIW coming from an Anglican , it seems to me that there are several different actions we could make towards those whose lives have radiated the love of Christ, for example, to love them, to ask for their prayers, and to venerate them as Saints. Whatever your priest says, Kaleab - and I do think you need to have that discussion with him - about whether you should ask St Therese for her prayers (don't know what he'll say), or whether you should venerate her as a Saint (guessing that's unlikely as she is not canonised in the Orthodox Churches), there is no law against loving her, and appreciating all that Christ has done for her and through her.
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« Reply #60 on: Yesterday at 08:57:22 AM »

and did she live her life in accordance with it's teachings?


It's entirely possible she lived her life in more accord with Christ's teachings than any of us.  Wink

.... but the fact remains that she was never part of the Orthodox Church, therefore she cannot be venerated as an Orthodox saint.


No one is talking about the Church venerating her as a saint.

Are not our homes and prayer corners supposed to be a "little church"?


There are lots of people venerated at home that are not canonized by the Church. How are saints canonized if not by popular veneration?


unfortunately using -that- logic in this case.....is not useful.

Popular veneration of an Orthodox holy person can lead to them being recognized as a Saint, but you can't apply that to a Catholic person or a Protestant person.

i.e. Just because I decide to venerate Calvin, doesn't make him suitable for later Sainthood.




Another ridiculous example. Arius = Calvin = St Therese is silly. We are rational creatures. We can look at a person's life and make a rational judgement that they led a holy life. Everything outside of Orthodoxy is not evil.  Wink

Everything outside of Orthodoxy is not good either. Only within the Church can we be guaranteed that, and only within the Church can we be shown for sure what constitutes a holy life.  


I don't think that's the case at all. There have been many non-Orthodox who were holy.
According to who's standards, Paisius?

In Christ,
Andrew
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« Reply #61 on: Yesterday at 08:59:04 AM »

With the multitudes of Orthodox saints abounding in every virtue imaginable, why on earth do some people feel the need to look elsewhere for guidance, comfort and inspiration? Aren't Orthodox saints good enough for them?
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« Reply #62 on: Yesterday at 11:03:45 AM »

Well Lord, a good nights rest of sleep and I come back to all this  Grin Thanks for all your posts guys but I'm thinking private veneration is okay Because for sure Therese lived a more holy life then me and was very very very wanting to suffer for Christ.

Even more reason for you to speak to your priest about this matter, and other matters you have raised on other threads.

The thing is. I'm not very trusting of my Priest because of what has happened in the past with other members of the Church. One reason I will be asking these questions when I finally go to St Nicholas in Downtown Cincinnati and will also have my first confession there  Grin Cheesy
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« Reply #63 on: Yesterday at 11:04:28 AM »

With the multitudes of Orthodox saints abounding in every virtue imaginable, why on earth do some people feel the need to look elsewhere for guidance, comfort and inspiration? Aren't Orthodox saints good enough for them?

I just find a certain love and connection to Therese. That's all her life has led me to live a holier life as well.
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« Reply #64 on: Yesterday at 12:15:20 PM »

and did she live her life in accordance with it's teachings?


It's entirely possible she lived her life in more accord with Christ's teachings than any of us.  Wink

.... but the fact remains that she was never part of the Orthodox Church, therefore she cannot be venerated as an Orthodox saint.


No one is talking about the Church venerating her as a saint.

Are not our homes and prayer corners supposed to be a "little church"?


There are lots of people venerated at home that are not canonized by the Church. How are saints canonized if not by popular veneration?


unfortunately using -that- logic in this case.....is not useful.

Popular veneration of an Orthodox holy person can lead to them being recognized as a Saint, but you can't apply that to a Catholic person or a Protestant person.

i.e. Just because I decide to venerate Calvin, doesn't make him suitable for later Sainthood.




Another ridiculous example. Arius = Calvin = St Therese is silly. We are rational creatures. We can look at a person's life and make a rational judgement that they led a holy life. Everything outside of Orthodoxy is not evil.  Wink

Everything outside of Orthodoxy is not good either. Only within the Church can we be guaranteed that, and only within the Church can we be shown for sure what constitutes a holy life.  


I don't think that's the case at all. There have been many non-Orthodox who were holy.
According to who's standards, Paisius?

In Christ,
Andrew



I know this is going to sound trite but it's not. By the standards of the Gospel, "blessed are the poor in spirit, blessed are the meek, blessed are the pure in heart, love your neighbor as yourself, no greater love hath a man than to lay down his life for his friends, bless those who curse you, I was hungry and you gave me drink" etc.
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« Reply #65 on: Yesterday at 12:17:17 PM »

and did she live her life in accordance with it's teachings?


It's entirely possible she lived her life in more accord with Christ's teachings than any of us.  Wink

.... but the fact remains that she was never part of the Orthodox Church, therefore she cannot be venerated as an Orthodox saint.


No one is talking about the Church venerating her as a saint.

Are not our homes and prayer corners supposed to be a "little church"?


There are lots of people venerated at home that are not canonized by the Church. How are saints canonized if not by popular veneration?


unfortunately using -that- logic in this case.....is not useful.

Popular veneration of an Orthodox holy person can lead to them being recognized as a Saint, but you can't apply that to a Catholic person or a Protestant person.

i.e. Just because I decide to venerate Calvin, doesn't make him suitable for later Sainthood.




Another ridiculous example. Arius = Calvin = St Therese is silly. We are rational creatures. We can look at a person's life and make a rational judgement that they led a holy life. Everything outside of Orthodoxy is not evil.  Wink

Everything outside of Orthodoxy is not good either. Only within the Church can we be guaranteed that, and only within the Church can we be shown for sure what constitutes a holy life.  


I don't think that's the case at all. There have been many non-Orthodox who were holy.
According to who's standards, Paisius?

In Christ,
Andrew



I know this is going to sound trite but it's not. By the standards of the Gospel, "blessed are the poor in spirit, blessed are the meek, blessed are the pure in heart, love your neighbor as yourself, no greater love hath a man than to lay down his life for his friends, bless those who curse you, I was hungry and you gave me drink" etc.


But it does not say....

Blessed are the poor in spirit, you should pray to them because they might someday be a Saint of my Church.


Again...None of this matters.....in this case, one should do what one's Priest is telling them.


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« Reply #66 on: Yesterday at 01:49:34 PM »

I know this is going to sound trite but it's not. By the standards of the Gospel, "blessed are the poor in spirit, blessed are the meek, blessed are the pure in heart, love your neighbor as yourself, no greater love hath a man than to lay down his life for his friends, bless those who curse you, I was hungry and you gave me drink" etc.

By those standards, we should be canonizing social workers and soup kitchen volunteers left and right.
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« Reply #67 on: Yesterday at 01:51:40 PM »

LOL.  To make sure we don't infect ourselves with Romanobola, we are ready to reduce the Beatitudes to a hymn sung during the procession with the Gospel book. 

Ridiculous.
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« Reply #68 on: Yesterday at 02:02:41 PM »

LOL.  To make sure we don't infect ourselves with Romanobola, we are ready to reduce the Beatitudes to a hymn sung during the procession with the Gospel book. 

Ridiculous.

I tried to no avail to find a picture online of an Orthodox priest in a hazmat suit.
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« Reply #69 on: Yesterday at 02:11:01 PM »

I know this is going to sound trite but it's not. By the standards of the Gospel, "blessed are the poor in spirit, blessed are the meek, blessed are the pure in heart, love your neighbor as yourself, no greater love hath a man than to lay down his life for his friends, bless those who curse you, I was hungry and you gave me drink" etc.

By those standards, we should be canonizing social workers and soup kitchen volunteers left and right.


Maybe we should. Again, I imagine many of them are doing more to serve the Gospel than some of us.
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« Reply #70 on: Yesterday at 02:35:13 PM »

I know this is going to sound trite but it's not. By the standards of the Gospel, "blessed are the poor in spirit, blessed are the meek, blessed are the pure in heart, love your neighbor as yourself, no greater love hath a man than to lay down his life for his friends, bless those who curse you, I was hungry and you gave me drink" etc.

By those standards, we should be canonizing social workers and soup kitchen volunteers left and right.


Maybe we should. Again, I imagine many of them are doing more to serve the Gospel than some of us.

And unknown to us, as are most saints, many of them no doubt are in the company of Saints.
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