Author Topic: Amoris Laetitia and My Crisis of Faith  (Read 3469 times)

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Offline WPM

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Re: Amoris Laetitia and My Crisis of Faith
« Reply #180 on: February 16, 2017, 09:21:46 AM »
I think the Catholic Pope of today is a social phenomenon . . . (Maybe the earlier popes had no such thing) ...

Offline minasoliman

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Re: Amoris Laetitia and My Crisis of Faith
« Reply #181 on: February 16, 2017, 10:21:11 AM »
The four bishops can voice their dubia till the cows come home.
The pope can simply ignore it, if he chooses. He is the vicar of Christ and can do as he pleases.
They can play rebellion, but will pay the bill.
That's the way it is.

I don't think other Catholics in this thread agree with you
I do not know. Let me try to be more explicit:
Leaning towards tradition, you would probably call me a trad catholic.
In my opinion, as stated previously, AL is unnecessary and irrelevant - you could also say dangerous.
The best thing ordinary Catholics and clergy can do imho is fully ignore it. Period.
The four bishops are right and they are heroes - little hyperbole there.
BUT: It will achieve nothing. It is time that certain trad circles wake up from day-dreaming and realize Francis will not withdraw AL. Seriously: Do they expect him to say: "I overlooked something, sorry, my bad."? Face reality. He is in charge and can do as he pleases. I do not say he should.
Interesting tangent: The very same conservative circles vehemently demanding acceptance of papal primacy in the past (e.g. realizing Summorum Pontificum) are complaining loudest now that a pope really is emphasizing his authority. This is bordering opportunism.

And yet you advocate, "let him just do whatever he wants because he is the vicar of Christ and he can do as he pleases"?  Don't you recognize the problem?
Vain existence can never exist, for "unless the LORD builds the house, the builders labor in vain." (Psalm 127)

If the faith is unchanged and rock solid, then the gates of Hades never prevailed in the end.

Offline Lepanto

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Re: Amoris Laetitia and My Crisis of Faith
« Reply #182 on: February 16, 2017, 11:13:54 AM »
Again: There is no contradiction. Did you actually read AL. It is beautiful and in agreement with what the church always taught almost everywhere. But everybody just talks about this one passage resp. footnote. Anyway.
PJ26 correctly mentioned Lumen Gentium. I am the first to agree that the supreme magisterium must be acknowledged with reverence. Orthodox reminding me of that is in a way pure irony. But once more: AL is a pastoral exhortation. It is not de fide or anything. If the pope were to issue a motu proprio declaring that Christ did not rise on the third day, do you think Lumen Gentium would kick in? We are no lemmings!

Offline minasoliman

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Re: Amoris Laetitia and My Crisis of Faith
« Reply #183 on: February 16, 2017, 11:18:39 AM »
I find it interesting you went from:

AL is a pastoral document. It has no effect on church teaching whatsoever. It is both unnecessary and irrelevant. Just simply ignore it l. Why would you want to leave the church for a piece of paper?
Don't do it unless you have a better reason.
It should have zero effect on your spiritual life. It is sad if AL leads people astray, but then again there is in the end not much you can do about it. Compared to what the church saw through throughout the centuries, this is just a mini crisis.

to:


Again: There is no contradiction. Did you actually read AL. It is beautiful and in agreement with what the church always taught almost everywhere. But everybody just talks about this one passage resp. footnote. Anyway.
PJ26 correctly mentioned Lumen Gentium. I am the first to agree that the supreme magisterium must be acknowledged with reverence. Orthodox reminding me of that is in a way pure irony. But once more: AL is a pastoral exhortation. It is not de fide or anything. If the pope were to issue a motu proprio declaring that Christ did not rise on the third day, do you think Lumen Gentium would kick in? We are no lemmings!

I feel like this is the type of repeated discussion with Catholics on doctrine.  First they go crazy against Pope Francis for heresy, then they say, "oh wait, it's not heresy, and the Pope is infallible.  Praise the Lord!"

Sigh!
Vain existence can never exist, for "unless the LORD builds the house, the builders labor in vain." (Psalm 127)

If the faith is unchanged and rock solid, then the gates of Hades never prevailed in the end.

Offline Lepanto

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Re: Amoris Laetitia and My Crisis of Faith
« Reply #184 on: February 16, 2017, 11:26:37 AM »
I did not change my point of view! Please don't claim something like that if you can't prove it.
Also, the pope is not infallible if you ask him the 100th digit of Pi of the top of his head in an interview on an airplane. Ex cathedra. You know all that.

Offline minasoliman

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Re: Amoris Laetitia and My Crisis of Faith
« Reply #185 on: February 16, 2017, 11:49:50 AM »
Yes, the magical "ex cathedra", which is just a convenient way of saying, "he's right when he's right, and he's wrong when he's wrong."
Vain existence can never exist, for "unless the LORD builds the house, the builders labor in vain." (Psalm 127)

If the faith is unchanged and rock solid, then the gates of Hades never prevailed in the end.

Offline Lepanto

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Re: Amoris Laetitia and My Crisis of Faith
« Reply #186 on: February 16, 2017, 12:03:30 PM »
Yes, the magical "ex cathedra", which is just a convenient way of saying, "he's right when he's right, and he's wrong when he's wrong."
This thread is about AL and not Vatican I or whatnot.
Also, you for some reason want to use AL in order to prove how Catholicism is wrong. It will not work, already due to the nature of the document.

Offline Mor Ephrem

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Re: Amoris Laetitia and My Crisis of Faith
« Reply #187 on: February 16, 2017, 12:14:06 PM »
I think the Catholic Pope of today is a social phenomenon . . . (Maybe the earlier popes had no such thing) ...

How prescient! 

Quote
"You have not yet realized that the vision that you have of the Church is outdated? Do not you understand that the Pope today is a world leader?  (via Google Translate)

https://anonimidellacroce.wordpress.com/2017/02/13/spifferi-parte-iii-i-grandi-rinnovamenti-di-bergoglio-di-fra-cristoforo/
Just grab them by prayer.


Mor has spoken through George... this is the faith of the fathers!

The Church's bridegroom was never the Byzantine Empire.

Offline Mor Ephrem

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Re: Amoris Laetitia and My Crisis of Faith
« Reply #188 on: February 16, 2017, 12:15:23 PM »
I find it interesting you went from:

AL is a pastoral document. It has no effect on church teaching whatsoever. It is both unnecessary and irrelevant. Just simply ignore it l. Why would you want to leave the church for a piece of paper?
Don't do it unless you have a better reason.
It should have zero effect on your spiritual life. It is sad if AL leads people astray, but then again there is in the end not much you can do about it. Compared to what the church saw through throughout the centuries, this is just a mini crisis.

to:


Again: There is no contradiction. Did you actually read AL. It is beautiful and in agreement with what the church always taught almost everywhere. But everybody just talks about this one passage resp. footnote. Anyway.
PJ26 correctly mentioned Lumen Gentium. I am the first to agree that the supreme magisterium must be acknowledged with reverence. Orthodox reminding me of that is in a way pure irony. But once more: AL is a pastoral exhortation. It is not de fide or anything. If the pope were to issue a motu proprio declaring that Christ did not rise on the third day, do you think Lumen Gentium would kick in? We are no lemmings!

I feel like this is the type of repeated discussion with Catholics on doctrine.  First they go crazy against Pope Francis for heresy, then they say, "oh wait, it's not heresy, and the Pope is infallible.  Praise the Lord!"

Sigh!

+1
Just grab them by prayer.


Mor has spoken through George... this is the faith of the fathers!

The Church's bridegroom was never the Byzantine Empire.

Offline minasoliman

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Re: Amoris Laetitia and My Crisis of Faith
« Reply #189 on: February 16, 2017, 12:17:18 PM »
Yes, the magical "ex cathedra", which is just a convenient way of saying, "he's right when he's right, and he's wrong when he's wrong."
This thread is about AL and not Vatican I or whatnot.
Also, you for some reason want to use AL in order to prove how Catholicism is wrong. It will not work, already due to the nature of the document.

It was never about AL brother.  There is no consistency among Catholic theologians.  There are usually a couple of qualified Catholic theologians with different views of this issue, all because of the ridiculously unnecessary ecclesio-theologomenoun AT BEST of this "papalist primacy" issue.  AL is a problem because of his so-called "infallibility".
Vain existence can never exist, for "unless the LORD builds the house, the builders labor in vain." (Psalm 127)

If the faith is unchanged and rock solid, then the gates of Hades never prevailed in the end.

Offline Mor Ephrem

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Re: Amoris Laetitia and My Crisis of Faith
« Reply #190 on: February 16, 2017, 12:19:45 PM »
Yes, the magical "ex cathedra", which is just a convenient way of saying, "he's right when he's right, and he's wrong when he's wrong."

Which, in turn, essentially boils down to "He's right when I say so, and he's wrong when I say so."  IOW, Protestantism.
Just grab them by prayer.


Mor has spoken through George... this is the faith of the fathers!

The Church's bridegroom was never the Byzantine Empire.

Offline tcolon90

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Re: Amoris Laetitia and My Crisis of Faith
« Reply #191 on: February 16, 2017, 01:20:59 PM »
Ex cathedra is funny because the goal post seems to shift. When he's right it seems to apply more generally but when he's wrong it gets narrowed down to a tiny rare incident. It's pointless to argue over this issue on this basis because you can never pin him down. When he's got nothing left to defend himself with the church can just say he was never really a pope in the first place and reject him, which makes me wonder why the infallibility doctrine is needed.
"For where the body is, the eagles will gather."

Offline Lepanto

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Re: Amoris Laetitia and My Crisis of Faith
« Reply #192 on: February 16, 2017, 01:21:26 PM »
Yes, the magical "ex cathedra", which is just a convenient way of saying, "he's right when he's right, and he's wrong when he's wrong."

Which, in turn, essentially boils down to "He's right when I say so, and he's wrong when I say so."  IOW, Protestantism.
Nah, another cliché.
 I will not post anymore to this thread as it is leading nowhere. At the end, it is always about papal primacy. Always the same.

Offline tcolon90

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Re: Amoris Laetitia and My Crisis of Faith
« Reply #193 on: February 16, 2017, 01:25:07 PM »
Which leads to my next point. If a sacrament or action of the church can be later deemed ineffective even though at the time it was declared to be, then how reliable is the church's sacraments. They're either valid or not.
"For where the body is, the eagles will gather."

Offline tcolon90

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Re: Amoris Laetitia and My Crisis of Faith
« Reply #194 on: February 16, 2017, 01:27:28 PM »
Yes, the magical "ex cathedra", which is just a convenient way of saying, "he's right when he's right, and he's wrong when he's wrong."

Which, in turn, essentially boils down to "He's right when I say so, and he's wrong when I say so."  IOW, Protestantism.
Nah, another cliché.
 I will not post anymore to this thread as it is leading nowhere. At the end, it is always about papal primacy. Always the same.

The OP was asking about AL and how it relates to infallibility. So yes it is about the pope and his primacy.
« Last Edit: February 16, 2017, 01:28:27 PM by tcolon90 »
"For where the body is, the eagles will gather."

Offline PJ26

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Re: Amoris Laetitia and My Crisis of Faith
« Reply #195 on: February 16, 2017, 02:39:17 PM »
A couple of things.

AL is NOT ex cathedra, it does not IN ANY WAY touch on the issue of papal infallibility.  It does, however, touch on some other key issues such as papal authority and the nature of objective truth and perhaps whether or not such a thing even exists.

As quoted above Lumen Gentium says:

"Religious submission of mind and will must be shown in a special way to the authentic magisterium of the Roman Pontiff, even when he is not speaking ex cathedra; that is, it must be shown in such a way that his supreme magisterium is acknowledged with reverence, the judgments made by him are sincerely adhered to, according to his manifest mind and will."

Is this statement of Vatican II true or false? Period.  Stop trying to qualify it.

The fact that AL is not ex cathedra is IRRELEVANT if the above statement is true, it explicitly says so.

The pope has said that the authoritative interpretation of AL is the one given by Cardinal Schonborn who has himself said it is magisterial and part of sacred doctrine.  If you want to say the pope and one of his chief theologians are wrong - on what do you base that? What are your qualifications to do so?

Look, the very people who are criticizing Pope Francis and Amoris Laetitia would be having an absolute aneurism if I said the exact same things about John Paul II and Familiaris Consortio.  Don't deny it.  What's the difference?  Francis is pope.  JP2 was pope.  Amoris Laetitia is a post-synodal Apostolic Exhortation.  Familiaris Consortio is a post-synodal Apostolic Exhortation.  The only difference is the content.  I don't like the content.  I don't agree with it.  So I'm going to dismiss it.  Since when can a Catholic pick and choose what he or she will and will not accept?  Again, if I said that 30 years ago about Familiaris Consortio, I would be labeled disobedient, a heretic, etc.

If you want to say I don't have to pay attention to AL because it's heretical and Francis is a heretic and not really pope, that's fine, make that argument.  If you want to say Francis is the vicar of Christ, possessing the keys, so he can change moral truths and redefine things like adultery, that's fine too.  But stop being inconsistent and hypocritical applying Catholic teaching one way when you like what the pope says and another way when you don't. 



« Last Edit: February 16, 2017, 02:40:37 PM by PJ26 »

Offline Lepanto

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Re: Amoris Laetitia and My Crisis of Faith
« Reply #196 on: February 16, 2017, 03:22:35 PM »
@PJ 26: Thanks. As I said, I don't want to comment anymore, sorry. Probably other RCs here want.

Offline minasoliman

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Re: Amoris Laetitia and My Crisis of Faith
« Reply #197 on: February 16, 2017, 03:23:09 PM »
God bless you brother.
Vain existence can never exist, for "unless the LORD builds the house, the builders labor in vain." (Psalm 127)

If the faith is unchanged and rock solid, then the gates of Hades never prevailed in the end.

Offline Agabus

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Re: Amoris Laetitia and My Crisis of Faith
« Reply #198 on: February 16, 2017, 05:22:01 PM »
"It's intuitively obvious that you don't know what you are talking about. In what world is a postpositivist even related to Zizek or phenomenology? The answer is - in no world.

I for one do not support the Council of Crete and am very critical of the Patriarchate of Constantinople and its occasional proclamations of a very...let's say a peculiar ecclesiology. Holding this position does not therefore demand that I sell my soul down the river as a political shill.

In short, you've done nothing more than prove my point, which is that you are not actually all that well-principled. You're just a naïve reactionary contrarian."

Ahh poor Mr Rozhek you need to calm down and listen a bit more to your Greek grandmother. All that Zizek has gone to your head. I'm sorry that I touched on a sore point and your rhizomes have become all mixed up, but never fear. God is merciful! You need not get your knickers in a twist. I recommend a year or two in a (Russian) monastery and absolutely no Zizek (or even Yannaras!). It will be very good for you. Please keep me informed of your progress.

Try Popper, idiot.


Ad hom are not allowed in this forum. This goes for both of you.
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Offline christiane777

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Re: Amoris Laetitia and My Crisis of Faith
« Reply #199 on: February 17, 2017, 10:18:49 PM »
I don't know if this has been hit on yet, but the other thing about AL - why is only communion for the divorce and remarried subject to this discernment / conscience exception of teaching?  What prevents discernment/conscience from applying to all sins?  Once the conscience (of a priest or an individual) is overriding teaching, law, on one issue, what is to prevent a universal application?  Why is one sin in one situation different?  CDR is already being extended to all 'irregular situations.'  At least there is talk of that.   It just seems like kind of a lame, subversive argument.  The revenge of the C students.  I think most concede the conservatives hit the books a little harder... :laugh:  It is amazing how much harm it is doing to the Church too.  Scattering not gathering.
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Offline Vanhyo

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Re: Amoris Laetitia and My Crisis of Faith
« Reply #200 on: February 18, 2017, 10:06:53 AM »
nvm, out of context.
« Last Edit: February 18, 2017, 10:07:42 AM by Vanhyo »

Offline Greystone

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Re: Amoris Laetitia and My Crisis of Faith
« Reply #201 on: February 20, 2017, 12:34:35 AM »
The principle problem with Amoris Laetitia is that it is reflective of the arbitrary Catholic legalism that has dominated the church for centuries. This is how I think things have played out with this controversial document:

-Pope Francis wants divorced and remarried catholics to be reintegrated into the church and provide a pathway where they could possibly receive communion.

-Pope Francis knows he can't blatantly change doctrine on this issue, so he calls a synod that issues a document that contains one tiny, deliberately ambiguous statement that bishops can interpret in a way that justifies their allowing divorced and remarried to receive communion.

-This would technically be an abuse under traditional Catholic teaching, but it seems this Pope is so focused on discernment and the individual conscience that he seems to marginalize such concerns under the assumption that 'God understands when it comes to gray areas',  a dubious proposition.

-The fact that it at worst could be called an abuse allows the Pope to get the "best" of both worlds. He can reintegrate divorced and remarrieds (and presumably their children who have yet to marry) at least when it comes to appearances and side step the issue of a doctrinal change claiming none has occurred. In this sense the infamous footnote in AL basically attempts to serve as 'plausible deniability' for Bishops who permit divorced and remarrieds to receive where they can attempt to assert that they have a clean conscience by claiming they thought interpreting that ambiguous footnote a certain way was valid.

-So ultimately this whole controversy is about Francis trying to orchestrate a convoluted pathway to navigate his way around Catholic legalism which has spun such a tangled web that it creates the potential for chaos on the reexamination of any issue concerning the faith or morals.

Offline PJ26

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Re: Amoris Laetitia and My Crisis of Faith
« Reply #202 on: February 20, 2017, 01:13:07 PM »
I wasn't planning on posting anything else in this thread, but I had to respond to this:

"The principle problem with Amoris Laetitia is that it is reflective of the arbitrary Catholic legalism that has dominated the church for centuries."

"ultimately this whole controversy is about Francis trying to orchestrate a convoluted pathway to navigate his way around Catholic legalism"

No.

I think people who are ignorant of their faith, if they are Catholic, and even those who belong to some other religion, but are keeping an eye on these matters, look at Pope Francis and say "Good for him for combating outdated moral and legalistic teachings.  I mean at least half of all marriages end in divorce, right? And everyone deserves a second chance after all."  Even the way Greystone phrases it - Pope Francis just wants to help out those poor folks who are divorced and remarried not feel so marginalized.  Who would have a problem with that?  That's where the focus is.

But, again, the thing is that these people are only CIVILLY remarried meaning, from a Catholic perspective, they aren't really remarried at all.  Not only are they having sexual relations outside of a sacramental marriage - a mortal sin - worse still, they are committing adultery - another mortal sin.  Then you're telling them they can receive communion in a state of mortal sin which is itself a mortal sin.  And if you die in mortal sin, you go to hell.  That is Catholic teaching.  So either the Catholic church is knowingly leading these people to hell, which really seems contradictory to the whole idea of being a church, or it is saying that the pope has the authority to change moral truths, or it is saying that what Catholicism has always taught is false, which is basically an admission that they aren't the true church after all. 

That is what this whole controversy is really about.



Offline Greystone

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Re: Amoris Laetitia and My Crisis of Faith
« Reply #203 on: Today at 10:31:43 AM »


But, again, the thing is that these people are only CIVILLY remarried meaning, from a Catholic perspective, they aren't really remarried at all.  Not only are they having sexual relations outside of a sacramental marriage - a mortal sin - worse still, they are committing adultery - another mortal sin.  Then you're telling them they can receive communion in a state of mortal sin which is itself a mortal sin.  And if you die in mortal sin, you go to hell.  That is Catholic teaching.

So either the Catholic church is knowingly leading these people to hell, which really seems contradictory to the whole idea of being a church, or it is saying that the pope has the authority to change moral truths, or it is saying that what Catholicism has always taught is false, which is basically an admission that they aren't the true church after all. 

That is what this whole controversy is really about.

I'm giving Pope Francis the benefit of doubt by assuming he believes all of what you expressed in the first paragraph to a great extent. The thing is a mortal sin in Catholic teaching requires three factors: grave matter, full knowledge, and deliberate consent. If an uninformed divorced and remarried (civil marriage) Catholic takes the advice of their priest or bishop (based on a liberal interpretation of AL) and is led to believe it is okay for them to receive communion, the case can be made that even if the grave matters exists regardless, that in following their conscience through serious "discernment" and by following the advice of their priest or Bishop they lack full knowledge (of the acts sinfulness and gravity) and also lack deliberate consent (by not explicitly intending to sin since they don't think they are doing any wrong). This is the legalism I'm talking about which I see Pope Francis as trying to get around by opening the door for a 'loophole' where a couple can do something objectively sinful, but subjectively not be culpable or less culpable because they are acting on the counsel of their priest or Bishop and their implementation of AL. Why would he want to do this? Who knows. But it seems to me Francis doesn't seem to think it's that big of a deal and that even if the couple is doing wrong..God will understand because they just want to be close to him and potentially bring their children into the Church as well.

Ultimately I don't know what Francis believes privately, but based on his public statements he seems to put more emphasis on the individual conscience, and the idea of personal discernment is always at the forefront when he speaks on this issue (much to the distress of traditionalists who continually emphasize doctrine).

« Last Edit: Today at 10:31:57 AM by Greystone »