Author Topic: (RC) Every Chilean bishop offers to resign over abuse scandal  (Read 501 times)

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Offline Agabus

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All of Chile's 34 Roman Catholic bishops have offered Pope Francis their resignations in the wake of a child sex scandal and cover-up.

They asked forgiveness from victims and the Church for their "grave errors and omissions".

It was not immediately clear whether the Pope had accepted the resignations.

[...]

The bishops offered their resignation by letter after three days of crisis talks at the Vatican, during which the Pope handed them a 10-page document accusing Chile's Church hierarchy of negligence in sex abuse cases.

The bishops wrote that their individual futures were in the Pope's hands, and if he did not accept their resignations, they would "continue doing our pastoral work".

"In communion with (the Pope) we want to re-establish justice and contribute to repairing the damage caused," they wrote.
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Re: (RC) Every Chilean bishop offers to resign over abuse scandal
« Reply #1 on: May 18, 2018, 11:03:39 AM »
Wow. I'll admit I've often fantasized about something like that happening, but never thought I see it.

I wonder what the public response will be. Obviously the Pope isn't going to accept anybody's resignation, so maybe in the end it's really just a token gesture...
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Offline Deacon Lance

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Re: (RC) Every Chilean bishop offers to resign over abuse scandal
« Reply #2 on: May 18, 2018, 11:24:24 AM »
Wow. I'll admit I've often fantasized about something like that happening, but never thought I see it.

I wonder what the public response will be. Obviously the Pope isn't going to accept anybody's resignation, so maybe in the end it's really just a token gesture...
What makes you think that?  He has accepted other resignations.  True, this is the first time every bishop of a nation has tendered one at the same time.  I would think magic be the most aggregious offenders resignations will be accepted.
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Re: (RC) Every Chilean bishop offers to resign over abuse scandal
« Reply #3 on: May 18, 2018, 11:58:04 AM »
Its obvious there is something terribly wrong with the RCC. Its diseased from within. Its going to take a few generation for them to clean house and for the lay people to forget. There biggest mistake is not allowing men who want to be married into the priesthood. I can see Jimmy Swaggart boarding a plane heading to Chile right about now.

Offline juliogb

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Re: (RC) Every Chilean bishop offers to resign over abuse scandal
« Reply #4 on: May 18, 2018, 12:01:41 PM »
Its obvious there is something terribly wrong with the RCC. Its diseased from within. Its going to take a few generation for them to clean house and for the lay people to forget. There biggest mistake is not allowing men who want to be married into the priesthood. I can see Jimmy Swaggart boarding a plane heading to Chile right about now.

Yeah, it is quite terrible how child/teen sexual molestation seems widespread all over the world in the* RC clergy. I wonder what are the causes, people usually point to forced celibacy to clergy but that is not the reason in my opinion.
« Last Edit: May 18, 2018, 12:09:46 PM by juliogb »

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Re: (RC) Every Chilean bishop offers to resign over abuse scandal
« Reply #5 on: May 18, 2018, 12:10:22 PM »
Wow. I'll admit I've often fantasized about something like that happening, but never thought I see it.

I wonder what the public response will be. Obviously the Pope isn't going to accept anybody's resignation, so maybe in the end it's really just a token gesture...
What makes you think that?  He has accepted other resignations.  True, this is the first time every bishop of a nation has tendered one at the same time.  I would think magic be the most aggregious offenders resignations will be accepted.

I dunno, I'm just cynical like that. Sorry. Don't mind me.
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Re: (RC) Every Chilean bishop offers to resign over abuse scandal
« Reply #6 on: May 18, 2018, 12:15:38 PM »
Its obvious there is something terribly wrong with the RCC. Its diseased from within. Its going to take a few generation for them to clean house and for the lay people to forget. There biggest mistake is not allowing men who want to be married into the priesthood. I can see Jimmy Swaggart boarding a plane heading to Chile right about now.

Jimmy Swaggart never touched kids. His malfeasance was all with grown women.

And there's plenty of married child molesters. Oftentimes their wives are just oblivious or willfully ignorant (see, Jerry Sandusky's wife). Celibacy wouldn't prevent the problem.
« Last Edit: May 18, 2018, 12:15:57 PM by Volnutt »
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Offline Tzimis

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Re: (RC) Every Chilean bishop offers to resign over abuse scandal
« Reply #7 on: May 18, 2018, 12:36:45 PM »
Its obvious there is something terribly wrong with the RCC. Its diseased from within. Its going to take a few generation for them to clean house and for the lay people to forget. There biggest mistake is not allowing men who want to be married into the priesthood. I can see Jimmy Swaggart boarding a plane heading to Chile right about now.

Jimmy Swaggart never touched kids. His malfeasance was all with grown women.

And there's plenty of married child molesters. Oftentimes their wives are just oblivious or willfully ignorant (see, Jerry Sandusky's wife). Celibacy wouldn't prevent the problem.

Not totally, but for some reason these pervs usually attach to institutions where they can be around young boys. Like the boy scouts. Most of these stories you hear involve young boys or men.
« Last Edit: May 18, 2018, 12:38:49 PM by Tzimis »

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Re: (RC) Every Chilean bishop offers to resign over abuse scandal
« Reply #8 on: May 18, 2018, 01:03:02 PM »
Its obvious there is something terribly wrong with the RCC. Its diseased from within. Its going to take a few generation for them to clean house and for the lay people to forget. There biggest mistake is not allowing men who want to be married into the priesthood. I can see Jimmy Swaggart boarding a plane heading to Chile right about now.

Jimmy Swaggart never touched kids. His malfeasance was all with grown women.

And there's plenty of married child molesters. Oftentimes their wives are just oblivious or willfully ignorant (see, Jerry Sandusky's wife). Celibacy wouldn't prevent the problem.

Not totally, but for some reason these pervs usually attach to institutions where they can be around young boys. Like the boy scouts. Most of these stories you hear involve young boys or men.

How would marriage prevent them from joining institutions like that? I'd wager that many or most child molesting teachers, Scout Masters, etc. were married at the time.

I also wouldn't be surprised if a few pedophiles have entered Orthodox monasteries. Should monastics be barred from working with children since they don't have some alleged safe status from being married?
« Last Edit: May 18, 2018, 01:03:34 PM by Volnutt »
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The breath of Thine Holy Spirit inspires artists, poets and scientists. The power of Thy supreme knowledge makes them prophets and interpreters of Thy laws, who reveal the depths of Thy creative wisdom. Their works speak unwittingly of Thee. How great art Thou in Thy creation! How great art Thou in man!
Akathist Hymn- Glory to God for All Things

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Re: (RC) Every Chilean bishop offers to resign over abuse scandal
« Reply #9 on: May 18, 2018, 01:18:16 PM »
All 34? This is a once in a lifetime occurrence!
« Last Edit: May 18, 2018, 01:27:28 PM by Jackson02 »
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Re: (RC) Every Chilean bishop offers to resign over abuse scandal
« Reply #10 on: May 18, 2018, 01:36:53 PM »
Obviously the Pope isn't going to accept anybody's resignation...

Actually, it wouldn’t surprise me if he accepted all resignations and began to appoint new bishops.  It strikes me as just the sort of thing he’d do.
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Re: (RC) Every Chilean bishop offers to resign over abuse scandal
« Reply #11 on: May 18, 2018, 01:40:36 PM »
Obviously the Pope isn't going to accept anybody's resignation...

Actually, it wouldn’t surprise me if he accepted all resignations and began to appoint new bishops.  It strikes me as just the sort of thing he’d do.

Yeah, now that I think about it, it kind of does.
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Re: (RC) Every Chilean bishop offers to resign over abuse scandal
« Reply #12 on: May 18, 2018, 01:47:23 PM »
Its obvious there is something terribly wrong with the RCC. Its diseased from within. Its going to take a few generation for them to clean house and for the lay people to forget. There biggest mistake is not allowing men who want to be married into the priesthood. I can see Jimmy Swaggart boarding a plane heading to Chile right about now.

Jimmy Swaggart never touched kids. His malfeasance was all with grown women.

And there's plenty of married child molesters. Oftentimes their wives are just oblivious or willfully ignorant (see, Jerry Sandusky's wife). Celibacy wouldn't prevent the problem.

Not totally, but for some reason these pervs usually attach to institutions where they can be around young boys. Like the boy scouts. Most of these stories you hear involve young boys or men.

How would marriage prevent them from joining institutions like that? I'd wager that many or most child molesting teachers, Scout Masters, etc. were married at the time.

I also wouldn't be surprised if a few pedophiles have entered Orthodox monasteries
. Should monastics be barred from working with children since they don't have some alleged safe status from being married?

  There is a big difference in being married as a show of normalcy to the public and actually being married and having intercourse with your mate. That is why the word marriage in Greek is the actual act of sex. Divorce happens way before a priest or any documents are signed. It happens when a couple no longer has sex.

   I can bet that most of those married pervs are keeping a wife for show and nothing happens in the bedroom. Meaning the marriage really is a farce.

  Real marriage can only help in that there is a release of sexual frustration which can build up over time. Most importantly though the church will benefit by inducting good men that were excluded due to the celibacy rules. 

  And yes, monasteries are an all boys club. There are stories over the internet. Hopefully few, but they are there.
The whole point is that people who have a distorted and sinful attraction to young boys should be vetted and not work with children. Its clear that the clergy of the RCC was hiding these priests. They should have taken action and kick them out or send them to monasteries so they can be away from there source of attraction.
It doesn't benefit the public and it hurts the churches reputation.

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Re: (RC) Every Chilean bishop offers to resign over abuse scandal
« Reply #13 on: May 18, 2018, 02:38:03 PM »
Obviously the Pope isn't going to accept anybody's resignation...

Actually, it wouldn’t surprise me if he accepted all resignations and began to appoint new bishops.  It strikes me as just the sort of thing he’d do.

+1

I'm holding my breath for the reactionary freakout about how this is really about getting rid of the Latin Mass in Chile.

But to the point of the actual story: it'd be great for ultramontanism to be wielded to crush under its heel the snakes' head of clerical abuse shuffling.
« Last Edit: May 18, 2018, 02:39:35 PM by Agabus »
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Re: (RC) Every Chilean bishop offers to resign over abuse scandal
« Reply #14 on: May 18, 2018, 04:37:30 PM »
Whoa, that's definitely big news. Regardless of whether or not their resignations are accepted, I hope the issues are resolved.

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Re: (RC) Every Chilean bishop offers to resign over abuse scandal
« Reply #15 on: May 18, 2018, 05:04:03 PM »
Its obvious there is something terribly wrong with the RCC. Its diseased from within. Its going to take a few generation for them to clean house and for the lay people to forget. There biggest mistake is not allowing men who want to be married into the priesthood. I can see Jimmy Swaggart boarding a plane heading to Chile right about now.

Jimmy Swaggart never touched kids. His malfeasance was all with grown women.

And there's plenty of married child molesters. Oftentimes their wives are just oblivious or willfully ignorant (see, Jerry Sandusky's wife). Celibacy wouldn't prevent the problem.

Not totally, but for some reason these pervs usually attach to institutions where they can be around young boys. Like the boy scouts. Most of these stories you hear involve young boys or men.

How would marriage prevent them from joining institutions like that? I'd wager that many or most child molesting teachers, Scout Masters, etc. were married at the time.

I also wouldn't be surprised if a few pedophiles have entered Orthodox monasteries
. Should monastics be barred from working with children since they don't have some alleged safe status from being married?

  There is a big difference in being married as a show of normalcy to the public and actually being married and having intercourse with your mate. That is why the word marriage in Greek is the actual act of sex. Divorce happens way before a priest or any documents are signed. It happens when a couple no longer has sex.

Then there's a whole lot of older married couples that are de facto divorced.

   I can bet that most of those married pervs are keeping a wife for show and nothing happens in the bedroom. Meaning the marriage really is a farce.

  Real marriage can only help in that there is a release of sexual frustration which can build up over time.

People are complicated. There are exclusive pedophiles and there are nonexclusive. Some of them likely got married because they thought that sexual release would help keep them clean... and it didn't work. Part of the problem is that child molestation is not often just sexual, in fact it often has a sadistic power component to it. So consensual sex with a grown woman wouldn't be a comparable experience.

I'm sure there are some offenders in loveless show marriages, but I don't feel confident speculating as to numbers.

Most importantly though the church will benefit by inducting good men that were excluded due to the celibacy rules.

True, but that's a separate argument from recommending it as a remedy for this issue.

  And yes, monasteries are an all boys club. There are stories over the internet. Hopefully few, but they are there.
The whole point is that people who have a distorted and sinful attraction to young boys should be vetted and not work with children. Its clear that the clergy of the RCC was hiding these priests. They should have taken action and kick them out or send them to monasteries so they can be away from there source of attraction.
It doesn't benefit the public and it hurts the churches reputation.

Fair enough. I just also hope that their abbots wouldn't let them have a service in the world that could include working with kids.
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Offline RaphaCam

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Re: (RC) Every Chilean bishop offers to resign over abuse scandal
« Reply #16 on: May 18, 2018, 05:13:35 PM »
I hope the Pope accepts it. If the bishops asked for resignation over such a serious deal, it's hard to imagine another experient priest wouldn't do a better job at the see.
« Last Edit: May 18, 2018, 05:13:57 PM by RaphaCam »
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Re: (RC) Every Chilean bishop offers to resign over abuse scandal
« Reply #17 on: May 18, 2018, 05:28:47 PM »
I hope the Pope accepts it. If the bishops asked for resignation over such a serious deal, it's hard to imagine another experient priest wouldn't do a better job at the see.

Are there enough experienced priests for the job, though?
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Re: (RC) Every Chilean bishop offers to resign over abuse scandal
« Reply #18 on: May 18, 2018, 05:34:58 PM »
From a quick search, Chile apparently had 2415 priests in 2014. This would mean less than 2% of them would have to be ready for the job. Also, bishops are occasionally sent from abroad, either just consecrated or formerly consecrated but merely titular.
« Last Edit: May 18, 2018, 05:35:34 PM by RaphaCam »
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Anyhow when God was asked he said Eastern Orthodox is true Church and not Catholic Church. So come home and enjoy.

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Re: (RC) Every Chilean bishop offers to resign over abuse scandal
« Reply #19 on: May 18, 2018, 07:12:46 PM »
Its obvious there is something terribly wrong with the RCC. Its diseased from within. Its going to take a few generation for them to clean house and for the lay people to forget. There biggest mistake is not allowing men who want to be married into the priesthood. I can see Jimmy Swaggart boarding a plane heading to Chile right about now.

Jimmy Swaggart never touched kids. His malfeasance was all with grown women.

And there's plenty of married child molesters. Oftentimes their wives are just oblivious or willfully ignorant (see, Jerry Sandusky's wife). Celibacy wouldn't prevent the problem.

Not totally, but for some reason these pervs usually attach to institutions where they can be around young boys. Like the boy scouts. Most of these stories you hear involve young boys or men.

How would marriage prevent them from joining institutions like that? I'd wager that many or most child molesting teachers, Scout Masters, etc. were married at the time.

I also wouldn't be surprised if a few pedophiles have entered Orthodox monasteries
. Should monastics be barred from working with children since they don't have some alleged safe status from being married?

  There is a big difference in being married as a show of normalcy to the public and actually being married and having intercourse with your mate. That is why the word marriage in Greek is the actual act of sex. Divorce happens way before a priest or any documents are signed. It happens when a couple no longer has sex.

   I can bet that most of those married pervs are keeping a wife for show and nothing happens in the bedroom. Meaning the marriage really is a farce.

  Real marriage can only help in that there is a release of sexual frustration which can build up over time. Most importantly though the church will benefit by inducting good men that were excluded due to the celibacy rules. 

  And yes, monasteries are an all boys club. There are stories over the internet. Hopefully few, but they are there.
The whole point is that people who have a distorted and sinful attraction to young boys should be vetted and not work with children. Its clear that the clergy of the RCC was hiding these priests. They should have taken action and kick them out or send them to monasteries so they can be away from there source of attraction.
It doesn't benefit the public and it hurts the churches reputation.

You spend an inordinate amount of time thinking about other people and their sex lives.
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Re: (RC) Every Chilean bishop offers to resign over abuse scandal
« Reply #20 on: May 18, 2018, 07:14:56 PM »
Wow. I'll admit I've often fantasized about something like that happening, but never thought I see it.


YOu've fantasized about bishops resigning en masse and leaving their flocks without shepherds?  Does your fantasy only include Catholics?
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Re: (RC) Every Chilean bishop offers to resign over abuse scandal
« Reply #21 on: May 18, 2018, 07:15:22 PM »
From a quick search, Chile apparently had 2415 priests in 2014. This would mean less than 2% of them would have to be ready for the job. Also, bishops are occasionally sent from abroad, either just consecrated or formerly consecrated but merely titular.

Oh, good to know. I guess for some reason I got into the assumption that there's a crisis of priest in the RCC (maybe there just is in the US?)
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Re: (RC) Every Chilean bishop offers to resign over abuse scandal
« Reply #22 on: May 18, 2018, 07:16:54 PM »
Wow. I'll admit I've often fantasized about something like that happening, but never thought I see it.


YOu've fantasized about bishops resigning en masse and leaving their flocks without shepherds?  Does your fantasy only include Catholics?

Fantasized about radical justice occurring in abusive institutions, I mean. I would hope that the Sees wouldn't be vacant for long, just sometimes the idea of an ecclesiastical swamp draining appeals to my spleen.
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Akathist Hymn- Glory to God for All Things

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Re: (RC) Every Chilean bishop offers to resign over abuse scandal
« Reply #23 on: Yesterday at 03:26:42 AM »
From a quick search, Chile apparently had 2415 priests in 2014. This would mean less than 2% of them would have to be ready for the job. Also, bishops are occasionally sent from abroad, either just consecrated or formerly consecrated but merely titular.

Oh, good to know. I guess for some reason I got into the assumption that there's a crisis of priest in the RCC (maybe there just is in the US?)
No, I believe this is worldwide. But once the man is a priest, maybe it's not such a huge step to become a bishop, specially in times of trouble... I believe the Romanian Greek Catholics have a custom of consecrating very young bishops, for instance.
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Re: (RC) Every Chilean bishop offers to resign over abuse scandal
« Reply #24 on: Yesterday at 10:18:36 AM »
From a quick search, Chile apparently had 2415 priests in 2014. This would mean less than 2% of them would have to be ready for the job. Also, bishops are occasionally sent from abroad, either just consecrated or formerly consecrated but merely titular.

Oh, good to know. I guess for some reason I got into the assumption that there's a crisis of priest in the RCC (maybe there just is in the US?)

There is still a crisis. There are around 9 million (nominal) Catholics in Chile – that's one priest for every ~3700 Catholics, which is a much worse ratio than in the US, where there are about 72 million (nominal) Catholics and 37K priests, which is one priest for every ~1900 Catholics. Worldwide, the number was one priest per 1895 Catholics in 1980; it was one priest per 3126 Catholics as of 2012.

ETA: And this is not looking further into how many of the priests are in religious orders as opposed to dioceses, or the age of priests, which was 63 as of 2009 (an astonishing change from an average age of 35 in 1970). It's almost like something changed around then...
« Last Edit: Yesterday at 10:23:20 AM by MalpanaGiwargis »
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Re: (RC) Every Chilean bishop offers to resign over abuse scandal
« Reply #25 on: Yesterday at 12:59:19 PM »
Its obvious there is something terribly wrong with the RCC. Its diseased from within. Its going to take a few generation for them to clean house and for the lay people to forget. There biggest mistake is not allowing men who want to be married into the priesthood. I can see Jimmy Swaggart boarding a plane heading to Chile right about now.

Jimmy Swaggart never touched kids. His malfeasance was all with grown women.

And there's plenty of married child molesters. Oftentimes their wives are just oblivious or willfully ignorant (see, Jerry Sandusky's wife). Celibacy wouldn't prevent the problem.

Not totally, but for some reason these pervs usually attach to institutions where they can be around young boys. Like the boy scouts. Most of these stories you hear involve young boys or men.

How would marriage prevent them from joining institutions like that? I'd wager that many or most child molesting teachers, Scout Masters, etc. were married at the time.

I also wouldn't be surprised if a few pedophiles have entered Orthodox monasteries
. Should monastics be barred from working with children since they don't have some alleged safe status from being married?

  There is a big difference in being married as a show of normalcy to the public and actually being married and having intercourse with your mate. That is why the word marriage in Greek is the actual act of sex. Divorce happens way before a priest or any documents are signed. It happens when a couple no longer has sex.

   I can bet that most of those married pervs are keeping a wife for show and nothing happens in the bedroom. Meaning the marriage really is a farce.

  Real marriage can only help in that there is a release of sexual frustration which can build up over time. Most importantly though the church will benefit by inducting good men that were excluded due to the celibacy rules. 

  And yes, monasteries are an all boys club. There are stories over the internet. Hopefully few, but they are there.
The whole point is that people who have a distorted and sinful attraction to young boys should be vetted and not work with children. Its clear that the clergy of the RCC was hiding these priests. They should have taken action and kick them out or send them to monasteries so they can be away from there source of attraction.
It doesn't benefit the public and it hurts the churches reputation.

You spend an inordinate amount of time thinking about other people and their sex lives.
I don't spend ant time in there bedrooms though. What happens there can stay there for all I care.

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Re: (RC) Every Chilean bishop offers to resign over abuse scandal
« Reply #26 on: Yesterday at 01:01:38 PM »
Its obvious there is something terribly wrong with the RCC. Its diseased from within. Its going to take a few generation for them to clean house and for the lay people to forget. There biggest mistake is not allowing men who want to be married into the priesthood. I can see Jimmy Swaggart boarding a plane heading to Chile right about now.

Jimmy Swaggart never touched kids. His malfeasance was all with grown women.

And there's plenty of married child molesters. Oftentimes their wives are just oblivious or willfully ignorant (see, Jerry Sandusky's wife). Celibacy wouldn't prevent the problem.

Not totally, but for some reason these pervs usually attach to institutions where they can be around young boys. Like the boy scouts. Most of these stories you hear involve young boys or men.

How would marriage prevent them from joining institutions like that? I'd wager that many or most child molesting teachers, Scout Masters, etc. were married at the time.

I also wouldn't be surprised if a few pedophiles have entered Orthodox monasteries
. Should monastics be barred from working with children since they don't have some alleged safe status from being married?

  There is a big difference in being married as a show of normalcy to the public and actually being married and having intercourse with your mate. That is why the word marriage in Greek is the actual act of sex. Divorce happens way before a priest or any documents are signed. It happens when a couple no longer has sex.

Then there's a whole lot of older married couples that are de facto divorced
.

   I can bet that most of those married pervs are keeping a wife for show and nothing happens in the bedroom. Meaning the marriage really is a farce.

  Real marriage can only help in that there is a release of sexual frustration which can build up over time.

People are complicated. There are exclusive pedophiles and there are nonexclusive. Some of them likely got married because they thought that sexual release would help keep them clean... and it didn't work. Part of the problem is that child molestation is not often just sexual, in fact it often has a sadistic power component to it. So consensual sex with a grown woman wouldn't be a comparable experience.

I'm sure there are some offenders in loveless show marriages, but I don't feel confident speculating as to numbers.

Most importantly though the church will benefit by inducting good men that were excluded due to the celibacy rules.

True, but that's a separate argument from recommending it as a remedy for this issue.

  And yes, monasteries are an all boys club. There are stories over the internet. Hopefully few, but they are there.
The whole point is that people who have a distorted and sinful attraction to young boys should be vetted and not work with children. Its clear that the clergy of the RCC was hiding these priests. They should have taken action and kick them out or send them to monasteries so they can be away from there source of attraction.
It doesn't benefit the public and it hurts the churches reputation.

Fair enough. I just also hope that their abbots wouldn't let them have a service in the world that could include working with kids.
How do they account for the highest rates for sexuality tranmitted disease in nursing home?

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Re: (RC) Every Chilean bishop offers to resign over abuse scandal
« Reply #27 on: Yesterday at 02:04:42 PM »
Its obvious there is something terribly wrong with the RCC. Its diseased from within. Its going to take a few generation for them to clean house and for the lay people to forget. There biggest mistake is not allowing men who want to be married into the priesthood. I can see Jimmy Swaggart boarding a plane heading to Chile right about now.

Jimmy Swaggart never touched kids. His malfeasance was all with grown women.

And there's plenty of married child molesters. Oftentimes their wives are just oblivious or willfully ignorant (see, Jerry Sandusky's wife). Celibacy wouldn't prevent the problem.

Not totally, but for some reason these pervs usually attach to institutions where they can be around young boys. Like the boy scouts. Most of these stories you hear involve young boys or men.

How would marriage prevent them from joining institutions like that? I'd wager that many or most child molesting teachers, Scout Masters, etc. were married at the time.

I also wouldn't be surprised if a few pedophiles have entered Orthodox monasteries
. Should monastics be barred from working with children since they don't have some alleged safe status from being married?

  There is a big difference in being married as a show of normalcy to the public and actually being married and having intercourse with your mate. That is why the word marriage in Greek is the actual act of sex. Divorce happens way before a priest or any documents are signed. It happens when a couple no longer has sex.

   I can bet that most of those married pervs are keeping a wife for show and nothing happens in the bedroom. Meaning the marriage really is a farce.

  Real marriage can only help in that there is a release of sexual frustration which can build up over time. Most importantly though the church will benefit by inducting good men that were excluded due to the celibacy rules. 

  And yes, monasteries are an all boys club. There are stories over the internet. Hopefully few, but they are there.
The whole point is that people who have a distorted and sinful attraction to young boys should be vetted and not work with children. Its clear that the clergy of the RCC was hiding these priests. They should have taken action and kick them out or send them to monasteries so they can be away from there source of attraction.
It doesn't benefit the public and it hurts the churches reputation.

You spend an inordinate amount of time thinking about other people and their sex lives.
I don't spend ant time in there bedrooms though. What happens there can stay there for all I care.

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Re: (RC) Every Chilean bishop offers to resign over abuse scandal
« Reply #28 on: Yesterday at 02:09:44 PM »
Its obvious there is something terribly wrong with the RCC. Its diseased from within. Its going to take a few generation for them to clean house and for the lay people to forget. There biggest mistake is not allowing men who want to be married into the priesthood. I can see Jimmy Swaggart boarding a plane heading to Chile right about now.

Jimmy Swaggart never touched kids. His malfeasance was all with grown women.

And there's plenty of married child molesters. Oftentimes their wives are just oblivious or willfully ignorant (see, Jerry Sandusky's wife). Celibacy wouldn't prevent the problem.

Not totally, but for some reason these pervs usually attach to institutions where they can be around young boys. Like the boy scouts. Most of these stories you hear involve young boys or men.

How would marriage prevent them from joining institutions like that? I'd wager that many or most child molesting teachers, Scout Masters, etc. were married at the time.

I also wouldn't be surprised if a few pedophiles have entered Orthodox monasteries
. Should monastics be barred from working with children since they don't have some alleged safe status from being married?

  There is a big difference in being married as a show of normalcy to the public and actually being married and having intercourse with your mate. That is why the word marriage in Greek is the actual act of sex. Divorce happens way before a priest or any documents are signed. It happens when a couple no longer has sex.

Then there's a whole lot of older married couples that are de facto divorced
.

   I can bet that most of those married pervs are keeping a wife for show and nothing happens in the bedroom. Meaning the marriage really is a farce.

  Real marriage can only help in that there is a release of sexual frustration which can build up over time.

People are complicated. There are exclusive pedophiles and there are nonexclusive. Some of them likely got married because they thought that sexual release would help keep them clean... and it didn't work. Part of the problem is that child molestation is not often just sexual, in fact it often has a sadistic power component to it. So consensual sex with a grown woman wouldn't be a comparable experience.

I'm sure there are some offenders in loveless show marriages, but I don't feel confident speculating as to numbers.

Most importantly though the church will benefit by inducting good men that were excluded due to the celibacy rules.

True, but that's a separate argument from recommending it as a remedy for this issue.

  And yes, monasteries are an all boys club. There are stories over the internet. Hopefully few, but they are there.
The whole point is that people who have a distorted and sinful attraction to young boys should be vetted and not work with children. Its clear that the clergy of the RCC was hiding these priests. They should have taken action and kick them out or send them to monasteries so they can be away from there source of attraction.
It doesn't benefit the public and it hurts the churches reputation.

Fair enough. I just also hope that their abbots wouldn't let them have a service in the world that could include working with kids.
How do they account for the highest rates for sexuality tranmitted disease in nursing home?

Who's "they?" I have no idea which old people are doing it in nursing homes or how the statistics break down by religion. It just seems to be the traditionally Orthodox assumption that bed death after a certain age is a natural part of marriage.

I'm not saying that's even necessarily true theologically, just that it seems inconsistent to then be able to use sex as the sine qua non of Christian marriage like you were doing above. It also leaves out Saints like John of Kronstadt. Was he not really married?
« Last Edit: Yesterday at 02:10:06 PM by Volnutt »
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Akathist Hymn- Glory to God for All Things

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Re: (RC) Every Chilean bishop offers to resign over abuse scandal
« Reply #29 on: Yesterday at 02:49:05 PM »
Its obvious there is something terribly wrong with the RCC. Its diseased from within. Its going to take a few generation for them to clean house and for the lay people to forget. There biggest mistake is not allowing men who want to be married into the priesthood. I can see Jimmy Swaggart boarding a plane heading to Chile right about now.

Jimmy Swaggart never touched kids. His malfeasance was all with grown women.

And there's plenty of married child molesters. Oftentimes their wives are just oblivious or willfully ignorant (see, Jerry Sandusky's wife). Celibacy wouldn't prevent the problem.

Not totally, but for some reason these pervs usually attach to institutions where they can be around young boys. Like the boy scouts. Most of these stories you hear involve young boys or men.

How would marriage prevent them from joining institutions like that? I'd wager that many or most child molesting teachers, Scout Masters, etc. were married at the time.

I also wouldn't be surprised if a few pedophiles have entered Orthodox monasteries
. Should monastics be barred from working with children since they don't have some alleged safe status from being married?

  There is a big difference in being married as a show of normalcy to the public and actually being married and having intercourse with your mate. That is why the word marriage in Greek is the actual act of sex. Divorce happens way before a priest or any documents are signed. It happens when a couple no longer has sex.

Then there's a whole lot of older married couples that are de facto divorced
.

   I can bet that most of those married pervs are keeping a wife for show and nothing happens in the bedroom. Meaning the marriage really is a farce.

  Real marriage can only help in that there is a release of sexual frustration which can build up over time.

People are complicated. There are exclusive pedophiles and there are nonexclusive. Some of them likely got married because they thought that sexual release would help keep them clean... and it didn't work. Part of the problem is that child molestation is not often just sexual, in fact it often has a sadistic power component to it. So consensual sex with a grown woman wouldn't be a comparable experience.

I'm sure there are some offenders in loveless show marriages, but I don't feel confident speculating as to numbers.

Most importantly though the church will benefit by inducting good men that were excluded due to the celibacy rules.

True, but that's a separate argument from recommending it as a remedy for this issue.

  And yes, monasteries are an all boys club. There are stories over the internet. Hopefully few, but they are there.
The whole point is that people who have a distorted and sinful attraction to young boys should be vetted and not work with children. Its clear that the clergy of the RCC was hiding these priests. They should have taken action and kick them out or send them to monasteries so they can be away from there source of attraction.
It doesn't benefit the public and it hurts the churches reputation.

Fair enough. I just also hope that their abbots wouldn't let them have a service in the world that could include working with kids.
How do they account for the highest rates for sexuality tranmitted disease in nursing home?

Who's "they?" I have no idea which old people are doing it in nursing homes or how the statistics break down by religion. It just seems to be the traditionally Orthodox assumption that bed death after a certain age is a natural part of marriage.

I'm not saying that's even necessarily true theologically, just that it seems inconsistent to then be able to use sex as the sine qua non of Christian marriage like you were doing above. It also leaves out Saints like John of Kronstadt. Was he not really married?
The wiki article doesnt say if his wife left him or not. I does state that she complained to the chuch that he wasn't having sex with her. No sex no marriage.

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Re: (RC) Every Chilean bishop offers to resign over abuse scandal
« Reply #30 on: Yesterday at 03:07:11 PM »
Here is some suporting scripture for you.

16 Or do you not know that he who is joined to a harlot is one body with her? For “the two,” He says, “shall become one flesh.”

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Re: (RC) Every Chilean bishop offers to resign over abuse scandal
« Reply #31 on: Yesterday at 04:49:36 PM »
All of the Chilean bishops should tender their resignation, rather than just leave it up to PP FI.  They failed their flocks by behaving like hirelings, not shepherds.  It's nigh time for them to do penance for their acts and omissions.

Yeah, it is quite terrible how child/teen sexual molestation seems widespread all over the world in the* RC clergy. I wonder what are the causes, people usually point to forced celibacy to clergy but that is not the reason in my opinion.
Celibacy is not forced, but chosen or at least accepted by the candidates.  Yet, celibacy cannot the cause of such a horrible sin.  There have been ways for men to satisfy their disordered sexual urges for ages, usually for a modest price, it's said.  When these ancient means cannot satisfy the perverted urges perpetrated by such men, they are down a path of utter darkness that celibacy may a catalytic, but not the cause.

The fact that men of the cloth descended to such debased acts tells more about those in charge of them, especially their formation before, during and after seminary.  And that successors of the Apostles lack the spine to kick them out of the Catholic Church and turn them over to the "secular arm", as the inquisitors used to say, is deplorable.

Actually, it wouldn’t surprise me if he accepted all resignations and began to appoint new bishops.  It strikes me as just the sort of thing he’d do.
It would be the right thing to do, besides appointing an administrator for the Chilean Catholic Church.  Then, let the "secular arm" deal with any crimes committed by these bishops.
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Re: (RC) Every Chilean bishop offers to resign over abuse scandal
« Reply #32 on: Yesterday at 05:04:24 PM »
All of the Chilean bishops should tender their resignation, rather than just leave it up to PP FI.  They failed their flocks by behaving like hirelings, not shepherds.  It's nigh time for them to do penance for their acts and omissions.

Yeah, it is quite terrible how child/teen sexual molestation seems widespread all over the world in the* RC clergy. I wonder what are the causes, people usually point to forced celibacy to clergy but that is not the reason in my opinion.
Celibacy is not forced, but chosen or at least accepted by the candidates.  Yet, celibacy cannot the cause of such a horrible sin.  There have been ways for men to satisfy their disordered sexual urges for ages, usually for a modest price, it's said.  When these ancient means cannot satisfy the perverted urges perpetrated by such men, they are down a path of utter darkness that celibacy may a catalytic, but not the cause.

The fact that men of the cloth descended to such debased acts tells more about those in charge of them, especially their formation before, during and after seminary.  And that successors of the Apostles lack the spine to kick them out of the Catholic Church and turn them over to the "secular arm", as the inquisitors used to say, is deplorable.

Actually, it wouldn’t surprise me if he accepted all resignations and began to appoint new bishops.  It strikes me as just the sort of thing he’d do.
It would be the right thing to do, besides appointing an administrator for the Chilean Catholic Church.  Then, let the "secular arm" deal with any crimes committed by these bishops.
It is forced. Thats the whole point. Someone who wants to become a preist must be celibate in the RCC.  That leaves a vast majority of people who are otherwise righteous out of the fold. Because the church is so large and needs good men. They are stuck with ordaining sub part preists. Not all of course but a lot of churches are vacant of priests. They already know this. They will not back pedal because of infallibility.  Its going to destroy them though. Its eating away at them day by day.
« Last Edit: Yesterday at 05:08:06 PM by Tzimis »

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Re: (RC) Every Chilean bishop offers to resign over abuse scandal
« Reply #33 on: Yesterday at 05:04:48 PM »
Quote
There have been ways for men to satisfy their disordered sexual urges for ages, usually for a modest price, it's said.

I always forget about this point, yeah. There was a Catholic priest in New York a couple of years ago who was caught in kinky acts with a male prostitute.
« Last Edit: Yesterday at 05:05:16 PM by Volnutt »
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Re: (RC) Every Chilean bishop offers to resign over abuse scandal
« Reply #34 on: Yesterday at 05:12:10 PM »
It is forced. Thats the whole point. Someone who wants to become a preist must be celibate in the RCC.  That leaves a vast majority of people who are otherwise righteous out of the fold. Because the church is so large and needs good men. They are stuck with ordaining sub part preists. Not all of course but a lot of churches are vacant of priests. They already know this. They will not back pedal because of infallibility.  Its going to distory them though. Its eating away at them day by day.
The Catholic Church states that she only considers to the priesthood men who are called to celibacy.  Indeed, this requirement for a double vocation does decrease the number of eligible men for the priesthood, and she may even rush some to ordination pressed by her needs, but celibacy is not forced on anyone.

And must I remind my fellow Orthodox that there are celibate priests in the Church too?  The newly elected metropolitan of Chicago, Archimandrite Nathanael Symeonides, was a celibate parish priest.
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Re: (RC) Every Chilean bishop offers to resign over abuse scandal
« Reply #35 on: Yesterday at 05:13:26 PM »
Yeah, because he was a monk. Kind of a big difference.
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Re: (RC) Every Chilean bishop offers to resign over abuse scandal
« Reply #36 on: Yesterday at 05:48:21 PM »
It is forced. Thats the whole point. Someone who wants to become a preist must be celibate in the RCC.  That leaves a vast majority of people who are otherwise righteous out of the fold. Because the church is so large and needs good men. They are stuck with ordaining sub part preists. Not all of course but a lot of churches are vacant of priests. They already know this. They will not back pedal because of infallibility.  Its going to distory them though. Its eating away at them day by day.
The Catholic Church states that she only considers to the priesthood men who are called to celibacy.  Indeed, this requirement for a double vocation does decrease the number of eligible men for the priesthood, and she may even rush some to ordination pressed by her needs, but celibacy is not forced on anyone.

And must I remind my fellow Orthodox that there are celibate priests in the Church too?  The newly elected metropolitan of Chicago, Archimandrite Nathanael Symeonides, was a celibate parish priest.
Those who wish to become bishop. Yeah.

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Re: (RC) Every Chilean bishop offers to resign over abuse scandal
« Reply #37 on: Yesterday at 05:52:26 PM »
Yeah, because he was a monk. Kind of a big difference.
I dont think he was a monk.
« Last Edit: Yesterday at 06:02:31 PM by Tzimis »

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Re: (RC) Every Chilean bishop offers to resign over abuse scandal
« Reply #38 on: Yesterday at 06:09:30 PM »
Yeah, I believe double vocation is a real problem. The viri probati idea, however, is being currently discussed for northern Brazil, where the shortage of priests is specially critical and some churches stay without mass for long periods until a priest from far away arrives after going through a days-long trip through dirt roads, rivers and even jungle. No wonder why Pentecostalism has so much success there.
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Re: (RC) Every Chilean bishop offers to resign over abuse scandal
« Reply #39 on: Yesterday at 06:37:43 PM »
Yeah, I believe double vocation is a real problem. The viri probati idea, however, is being currently discussed for northern Brazil, where the shortage of priests is specially critical and some churches stay without mass for long periods until a priest from far away arrives after going through a days-long trip through dirt roads, rivers and even jungle. No wonder why Pentecostalism has so much success there.
Sounds like a safari adventure. I have to visit one day. My kind of landscape. 

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Re: (RC) Every Chilean bishop offers to resign over abuse scandal
« Reply #40 on: Yesterday at 06:39:06 PM »
It is forced. Thats the whole point. Someone who wants to become a preist must be celibate in the RCC.  That leaves a vast majority of people who are otherwise righteous out of the fold. Because the church is so large and needs good men. They are stuck with ordaining sub part preists. Not all of course but a lot of churches are vacant of priests. They already know this. They will not back pedal because of infallibility.  Its going to distory them though. Its eating away at them day by day.
The Catholic Church states that she only considers to the priesthood men who are called to celibacy.  Indeed, this requirement for a double vocation does decrease the number of eligible men for the priesthood, and she may even rush some to ordination pressed by her needs, but celibacy is not forced on anyone.

And must I remind my fellow Orthodox that there are celibate priests in the Church too?  The newly elected metropolitan of Chicago, Archimandrite Nathanael Symeonides, was a celibate parish priest.
Those who wish to become bishop. Yeah.

This says that he's attached to a monastery in Crete.
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Offline Tzimis

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Re: (RC) Every Chilean bishop offers to resign over abuse scandal
« Reply #41 on: Yesterday at 06:45:02 PM »
It is forced. Thats the whole point. Someone who wants to become a preist must be celibate in the RCC.  That leaves a vast majority of people who are otherwise righteous out of the fold. Because the church is so large and needs good men. They are stuck with ordaining sub part preists. Not all of course but a lot of churches are vacant of priests. They already know this. They will not back pedal because of infallibility.  Its going to distory them though. Its eating away at them day by day.
The Catholic Church states that she only considers to the priesthood men who are called to celibacy.  Indeed, this requirement for a double vocation does decrease the number of eligible men for the priesthood, and she may even rush some to ordination pressed by her needs, but celibacy is not forced on anyone.

And must I remind my fellow Orthodox that there are celibate priests in the Church too?  The newly elected metropolitan of Chicago, Archimandrite Nathanael Symeonides, was a celibate parish priest.
Those who wish to become bishop. Yeah.

This says that he's attached to a monastery in Crete.
Possibly
« Last Edit: Yesterday at 06:50:14 PM by Tzimis »