Author Topic: Did the Melkites accept papal infallibility?  (Read 11171 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline urg8rb8

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 65
  • Faith: Melkite
  • Jurisdiction: Eparchy of Newton
Re: Did the Melkites accept papal infallibility?
« Reply #180 on: August 23, 2016, 04:35:24 PM »
Do you think he's being sacrilege for giving communion to a Melkite?

Yes.

We do not give communion to those with whom we are not in communion. No matter how orthodox you consider yourself, you are not Orthodox, you are Melkite. Melkites are not in any official capacity in communion with the Orthodox Church. Cease coming here to brag about your disrespect of our sacraments. A mistake made in ignorance would be one thing, and it would be on the priest's head, but you are no longer in ignorance. You are not Orthodox. You may not take communion in our Churches.

I will as long as my priest is ok with it.  God will not care if the priest is giving me communion and nor will God care that I am taking communion.  I am not bragging.  I came here originally asking if it is normal for Melkites to receive communion from an AEOC the way I already am at my current AEOC.  I'm sorry but it's not your decision to make.  It's between me, my priest, and apparently his bishop.

I don't know how normal it if in the Ant. Church, but it's rare in the other EO ones, absent some extreme circumstances when you could get ekonomia. Basically if you are Melkite as you claim, from our pov you should be going to a melkite church or else convert to our EO Communion. But you see our beliefs and understanding of communion as Politics.

No.  I see the differences between the Melkite Church and AEOC as political... i mean it was the case back in the day that caused the schism between them.  Again, a Bishop was elected by the Syrians that was pro-Rome but Constantinople didn't like him so they kicked him out and put someone else instead.  Church goers got upset and parted ways.  They didn't change anything about the theology, the liturgy, etc.

Offline urg8rb8

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 65
  • Faith: Melkite
  • Jurisdiction: Eparchy of Newton
Re: Did the Melkites accept papal infallibility?
« Reply #181 on: August 23, 2016, 04:40:02 PM »
Fact 1:  The Melkites and Antiochians generally intercommune in the Middle East because, well, that is the way it is. 

Fact 2:  The Melkites and Antiochians generally don't intercommune in the US because, well, the Archdiocese has a lot of ex-Protestant converts who don't like fact number one.

How Melkites and Antiochians overcome the cognitive dissonance of having two sets of rules is anyone's guess; but I would say Melkites should respect the fact that Antiochians in the US feel like they cannot do what they do in the old country and US Orthodox should calm down when an old country priest does what his Patriarch does in his cathedral.

Thank you!

And my AEO priest seems to have calmed down and accepted that it is still ok to have "fact 1" even in the US.  Even the parishioners at the AEOC know that I am Melkite and don't even care. 

Offline Samn!

  • Elder
  • *****
  • Posts: 444
Re: Did the Melkites accept papal infallibility?
« Reply #182 on: August 23, 2016, 04:41:58 PM »

No.  I see the differences between the Melkite Church and AEOC as political... i mean it was the case back in the day that caused the schism between them.  Again, a Bishop was elected by the Syrians that was pro-Rome but Constantinople didn't like him so they kicked him out and put someone else instead.  Church goers got upset and parted ways.  They didn't change anything about the theology, the liturgy, etc.

This is a pretty inaccurate account of the Melkite Schism (see my comments about it above).  In any case, the first generations of Melkite Catholics were extremely Tridentinizing both in theology and liturgy. Euthymius Sayfi, the architect of the schism, even if he didn't live to see it, even translated the Tridentine Mass into Arabic and used it as the only liturgy in his diocese, until Rome put a stop to it because they realized that it was antagonizing potential converts. Their slide back in the direction of Orthodox praxis was pretty slow and is still incomplete. Especially in the Middle East, their liturgies can sometimes wind up looking more like reading the text of the Orthodox liturgy but with Novus Ordo rubrics and their popular piety draws more on Latin and Maronite sources than on the Orthodox.

Offline Samn!

  • Elder
  • *****
  • Posts: 444
Re: Did the Melkites accept papal infallibility?
« Reply #183 on: August 23, 2016, 04:43:03 PM »

Fact 1:  The Melkites and Antiochians generally intercommune in the Middle East because, well, that is the way it is. 

Fact 2:  The Melkites and Antiochians generally don't intercommune in the US because, well, the Archdiocese has a lot of ex-Protestant converts who don't like fact number one.

How Melkites and Antiochians overcome the cognitive dissonance of having two sets of rules is anyone's guess; but I would say Melkites should respect the fact that Antiochians in the US feel like they cannot do what they do in the old country and US Orthodox should calm down when an old country priest does what his Patriarch does in his cathedral.

But in the Middle East, where intercommunion is practiced, it's not limited to Melkites. It's almost always extended to any baptized non-Protestant.


Online Dominika

  • Troublesome Sheep
  • Section Moderator
  • Archon
  • *****
  • Posts: 2,648
  • Serbian/Polish
    • My youtube channel
  • Faith: Orthodox Christian
  • Jurisdiction: POC, but my heart belongs to Antioch
Re: Did the Melkites accept papal infallibility?
« Reply #184 on: August 23, 2016, 04:44:18 PM »
Do you think he's being sacrilege for giving communion to a Melkite?

Yes.

We do not give communion to those with whom we are not in communion. No matter how orthodox you consider yourself, you are not Orthodox, you are Melkite. Melkites are not in any official capacity in communion with the Orthodox Church. Cease coming here to brag about your disrespect of our sacraments. A mistake made in ignorance would be one thing, and it would be on the priest's head, but you are no longer in ignorance. You are not Orthodox. You may not take communion in our Churches.

I will as long as my priest is ok with it.  God will not care if the priest is giving me communion and nor will God care that I am taking communion.  I am not bragging.  I came here originally asking if it is normal for Melkites to receive communion from an AEOC the way I already am at my current AEOC.  I'm sorry but it's not your decision to make.  It's between me, my priest, and apparently his bishop.

I don't know how normal it if in the Ant. Church, but it's rare in the other EO ones, absent some extreme circumstances when you could get ekonomia. Basically if you are Melkite as you claim, from our pov you should be going to a melkite church or else convert to our EO Communion. But you see our beliefs and understanding of communion as Politics.

No.  I see the differences between the Melkite Church and AEOC as political... i mean it was the case back in the day that caused the schism between them.  Again, a Bishop was elected by the Syrians that was pro-Rome but Constantinople didn't like him so they kicked him out and put someone else instead.  Church goers got upset and parted ways.  They didn't change anything about the theology, the liturgy, etc.

It wasn't only political.. This schism (Rum Orthodox and Rum Catholic, actually both Melkite) was caused by long-term, anti-Orthodox politic of Rome and France in Levant.

I recommend you to read at least the preface of book titled "The Orthodox Church in the Arab world 700-1700".
The theology has been changed. The Liturgy a bit too.
Pray for persecuted Christians, especially in Serbian Kosovo and Raška, Egypt and Syria

Offline urg8rb8

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 65
  • Faith: Melkite
  • Jurisdiction: Eparchy of Newton
Re: Did the Melkites accept papal infallibility?
« Reply #185 on: August 23, 2016, 04:48:47 PM »

No.  I see the differences between the Melkite Church and AEOC as political... i mean it was the case back in the day that caused the schism between them.  Again, a Bishop was elected by the Syrians that was pro-Rome but Constantinople didn't like him so they kicked him out and put someone else instead.  Church goers got upset and parted ways.  They didn't change anything about the theology, the liturgy, etc.

This is a pretty inaccurate account of the Melkite Schism (see my comments about it above).  In any case, the first generations of Melkite Catholics were extremely Tridentinizing both in theology and liturgy. Euthymius Sayfi, the architect of the schism, even if he didn't live to see it, even translated the Tridentine Mass into Arabic and used it as the only liturgy in his diocese, until Rome put a stop to it because they realized that it was antagonizing potential converts. Their slide back in the direction of Orthodox praxis was pretty slow and is still incomplete. Especially in the Middle East, their liturgies can sometimes wind up looking more like reading the text of the Orthodox liturgy but with Novus Ordo rubrics and their popular piety draws more on Latin and Maronite sources than on the Orthodox.

Melkite uses the St. John Chrysostom Divine Liturgy.  The church even uses iconscreens.  The *ONLY* difference between the two is that the Melkite church (at least in the US) the priest dips the bread in the wine and puts it in your mouth... and doesn't use a spoon.  Otherwise you wouldn't know the difference (outside of the Pope being named in the Litany).

Offline urg8rb8

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 65
  • Faith: Melkite
  • Jurisdiction: Eparchy of Newton
Re: Did the Melkites accept papal infallibility?
« Reply #186 on: August 23, 2016, 04:50:26 PM »
Do you think he's being sacrilege for giving communion to a Melkite?

Yes.

We do not give communion to those with whom we are not in communion. No matter how orthodox you consider yourself, you are not Orthodox, you are Melkite. Melkites are not in any official capacity in communion with the Orthodox Church. Cease coming here to brag about your disrespect of our sacraments. A mistake made in ignorance would be one thing, and it would be on the priest's head, but you are no longer in ignorance. You are not Orthodox. You may not take communion in our Churches.

I will as long as my priest is ok with it.  God will not care if the priest is giving me communion and nor will God care that I am taking communion.  I am not bragging.  I came here originally asking if it is normal for Melkites to receive communion from an AEOC the way I already am at my current AEOC.  I'm sorry but it's not your decision to make.  It's between me, my priest, and apparently his bishop.

I don't know how normal it if in the Ant. Church, but it's rare in the other EO ones, absent some extreme circumstances when you could get ekonomia. Basically if you are Melkite as you claim, from our pov you should be going to a melkite church or else convert to our EO Communion. But you see our beliefs and understanding of communion as Politics.

No.  I see the differences between the Melkite Church and AEOC as political... i mean it was the case back in the day that caused the schism between them.  Again, a Bishop was elected by the Syrians that was pro-Rome but Constantinople didn't like him so they kicked him out and put someone else instead.  Church goers got upset and parted ways.  They didn't change anything about the theology, the liturgy, etc.

It wasn't only political.. This schism (Rum Orthodox and Rum Catholic, actually both Melkite) was caused by long-term, anti-Orthodox politic of Rome and France in Levant.

I recommend you to read at least the preface of book titled "The Orthodox Church in the Arab world 700-1700".
The theology has been changed. The Liturgy a bit too.

I'll read the entire book. Thanks.

But can you give me a couple of examples of changes in the theology?

Offline Samn!

  • Elder
  • *****
  • Posts: 444
Re: Did the Melkites accept papal infallibility?
« Reply #187 on: August 23, 2016, 05:19:37 PM »

But can you give me a couple of examples of changes in the theology?

If you read French or Arabic, there's a number of articles about the theological trajectory of the Melkite Catholics and how they-- more influenced by Gallicanism, in fact, than Orthodoxy-- started to see themselves as theologically quasi-independent of Rome (the career and eventual condemnation of Germanus Adam, who was fiercely opposed to papal authority but also, in line with most Melkite clergy of his time, believed that the Orthodox could not be saved, is a good example of this). But, for the first century and a half or more of the history of their church, they did not have a theological identity separate from Rome. If you look at the education of their clergy in the 18th and 19th centuries at the Monastery of Shuwayr, for example, there was a huge effort to translate from Latin, French, and Italian all the main works of Counter Reformation theology that was far more developed than any interest in patristics or Orthodox texts... For a much more detailed discussion of that point, I'd reccommend this article: https://www.jstor.org/stable/27667681?seq=1#page_scan_tab_contents

For what I think is a very even-handed discussion of the cultural and theological factors that led to some Orthodox in the Levant joining with Rome, I'd take a look at Constantin Panchenko's book, recently translated into English as Arab Orthodox Christians under the Ottomans: 1516-1831, especially pp. 454-490.


Offline rakovsky

  • Taxiarches
  • **********
  • Posts: 7,626
  • St. Mstislav I
    • The Old Testament Prophecies of the Messiah's Resurrection and Orthodox Christianity's roots in the Holy Land
  • Faith: Christian
  • Jurisdiction: Orthodox Church in America
Re: Did the Melkites accept papal infallibility?
« Reply #188 on: August 23, 2016, 05:47:17 PM »
Fact 1:  The Melkites and Antiochians generally intercommune in the Middle East because, well, that is the way it is. 

Fact 2:  The Melkites and Antiochians generally don't intercommune in the US because, well, the Archdiocese has a lot of ex-Protestant converts who don't like fact number one.

How Melkites and Antiochians overcome the cognitive dissonance of having two sets of rules is anyone's guess; but I would say Melkites should respect the fact that Antiochians in the US feel like they cannot do what they do in the old country and US Orthodox should calm down when an old country priest does what his Patriarch does in his cathedral.

Thank you!

And my AEO priest seems to have calmed down and accepted that it is still ok to have "fact 1" even in the US.  Even the parishioners at the AEOC know that I am Melkite and don't even care.

What do you mean seems to have calmed down?

Offline rakovsky

  • Taxiarches
  • **********
  • Posts: 7,626
  • St. Mstislav I
    • The Old Testament Prophecies of the Messiah's Resurrection and Orthodox Christianity's roots in the Holy Land
  • Faith: Christian
  • Jurisdiction: Orthodox Church in America
Re: Did the Melkites accept papal infallibility?
« Reply #189 on: August 23, 2016, 05:51:01 PM »
Do you think he's being sacrilege for giving communion to a Melkite?

Yes.

We do not give communion to those with whom we are not in communion. No matter how orthodox you consider yourself, you are not Orthodox, you are Melkite. Melkites are not in any official capacity in communion with the Orthodox Church. Cease coming here to brag about your disrespect of our sacraments. A mistake made in ignorance would be one thing, and it would be on the priest's head, but you are no longer in ignorance. You are not Orthodox. You may not take communion in our Churches.

I will as long as my priest is ok with it.  God will not care if the priest is giving me communion and nor will God care that I am taking communion.  I am not bragging.  I came here originally asking if it is normal for Melkites to receive communion from an AEOC the way I already am at my current AEOC.  I'm sorry but it's not your decision to make.  It's between me, my priest, and apparently his bishop.

I don't know how normal it if in the Ant. Church, but it's rare in the other EO ones, absent some extreme circumstances when you could get ekonomia. Basically if you are Melkite as you claim, from our pov you should be going to a melkite church or else convert to our EO Communion. But you see our beliefs and understanding of communion as Politics.

No.  I see the differences between the Melkite Church and AEOC as political... i mean it was the case back in the day that caused the schism between them.  Again, a Bishop was elected by the Syrians that was pro-Rome but Constantinople didn't like him so they kicked him out and put someone else instead.  Church goers got upset and parted ways.  They didn't change anything about the theology, the liturgy, etc.
Yes you are de facto saying that our understanding of how communion works is political. Because in our understanding we do not have communion with Melkites because they are in communion with Rome not us.
Our understanding of communion and how it works is that we are not in communion with Rome. You are calling our beliefs about this political.

Offline urg8rb8

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 65
  • Faith: Melkite
  • Jurisdiction: Eparchy of Newton
Re: Did the Melkites accept papal infallibility?
« Reply #190 on: August 23, 2016, 07:33:49 PM »
Fact 1:  The Melkites and Antiochians generally intercommune in the Middle East because, well, that is the way it is. 

Fact 2:  The Melkites and Antiochians generally don't intercommune in the US because, well, the Archdiocese has a lot of ex-Protestant converts who don't like fact number one.

How Melkites and Antiochians overcome the cognitive dissonance of having two sets of rules is anyone's guess; but I would say Melkites should respect the fact that Antiochians in the US feel like they cannot do what they do in the old country and US Orthodox should calm down when an old country priest does what his Patriarch does in his cathedral.

Thank you!

And my AEO priest seems to have calmed down and accepted that it is still ok to have "fact 1" even in the US.  Even the parishioners at the AEOC know that I am Melkite and don't even care.

What do you mean seems to have calmed down?

I used the words that the Decan used.

Offline urg8rb8

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 65
  • Faith: Melkite
  • Jurisdiction: Eparchy of Newton
Re: Did the Melkites accept papal infallibility?
« Reply #191 on: August 23, 2016, 07:40:30 PM »
Do you think he's being sacrilege for giving communion to a Melkite?

Yes.

We do not give communion to those with whom we are not in communion. No matter how orthodox you consider yourself, you are not Orthodox, you are Melkite. Melkites are not in any official capacity in communion with the Orthodox Church. Cease coming here to brag about your disrespect of our sacraments. A mistake made in ignorance would be one thing, and it would be on the priest's head, but you are no longer in ignorance. You are not Orthodox. You may not take communion in our Churches.

I will as long as my priest is ok with it.  God will not care if the priest is giving me communion and nor will God care that I am taking communion.  I am not bragging.  I came here originally asking if it is normal for Melkites to receive communion from an AEOC the way I already am at my current AEOC.  I'm sorry but it's not your decision to make.  It's between me, my priest, and apparently his bishop.

I don't know how normal it if in the Ant. Church, but it's rare in the other EO ones, absent some extreme circumstances when you could get ekonomia. Basically if you are Melkite as you claim, from our pov you should be going to a melkite church or else convert to our EO Communion. But you see our beliefs and understanding of communion as Politics.

No.  I see the differences between the Melkite Church and AEOC as political... i mean it was the case back in the day that caused the schism between them.  Again, a Bishop was elected by the Syrians that was pro-Rome but Constantinople didn't like him so they kicked him out and put someone else instead.  Church goers got upset and parted ways.  They didn't change anything about the theology, the liturgy, etc.
Yes you are de facto saying that our understanding of how communion works is political. Because in our understanding we do not have communion with Melkites because they are in communion with Rome not us.
Our understanding of communion and how it works is that we are not in communion with Rome. You are calling our beliefs about this political.

Yes that's what I mean.  The differences between the two are political not theological.  It would be nice if the Melkites and the Antiochian Orthodox merge back together again.

Offline RaphaCam

  • Hyperdox kid
  • OC.net guru
  • *******
  • Posts: 1,776
  • The Lord rebuke thee, O Satan!
  • Faith: Orthodox
  • Jurisdiction: Exarchate of Gotham City
Re: Did the Melkites accept papal infallibility?
« Reply #192 on: August 23, 2016, 07:46:19 PM »
Do you think he's being sacrilege for giving communion to a Melkite?

Yes.

We do not give communion to those with whom we are not in communion. No matter how orthodox you consider yourself, you are not Orthodox, you are Melkite. Melkites are not in any official capacity in communion with the Orthodox Church. Cease coming here to brag about your disrespect of our sacraments. A mistake made in ignorance would be one thing, and it would be on the priest's head, but you are no longer in ignorance. You are not Orthodox. You may not take communion in our Churches.

I will as long as my priest is ok with it.  God will not care if the priest is giving me communion and nor will God care that I am taking communion.  I am not bragging.  I came here originally asking if it is normal for Melkites to receive communion from an AEOC the way I already am at my current AEOC.  I'm sorry but it's not your decision to make.  It's between me, my priest, and apparently his bishop.

I don't know how normal it if in the Ant. Church, but it's rare in the other EO ones, absent some extreme circumstances when you could get ekonomia. Basically if you are Melkite as you claim, from our pov you should be going to a melkite church or else convert to our EO Communion. But you see our beliefs and understanding of communion as Politics.

No.  I see the differences between the Melkite Church and AEOC as political... i mean it was the case back in the day that caused the schism between them.  Again, a Bishop was elected by the Syrians that was pro-Rome but Constantinople didn't like him so they kicked him out and put someone else instead.  Church goers got upset and parted ways.  They didn't change anything about the theology, the liturgy, etc.
Yes you are de facto saying that our understanding of how communion works is political. Because in our understanding we do not have communion with Melkites because they are in communion with Rome not us.
Our understanding of communion and how it works is that we are not in communion with Rome. You are calling our beliefs about this political.

Yes that's what I mean.  The differences between the two are political not theological.  It would be nice if the Melkites and the Antiochian Orthodox merge back together again.
Until the schism is healed hierarchically, why not healing it at least for yourself? :P
But the Lord is in his holy temple: let all the earth keep silence before him. (Holy Habakkuk 2:20)

Offline urg8rb8

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 65
  • Faith: Melkite
  • Jurisdiction: Eparchy of Newton
Re: Did the Melkites accept papal infallibility?
« Reply #193 on: August 23, 2016, 08:17:46 PM »
Do you think he's being sacrilege for giving communion to a Melkite?

Yes.

We do not give communion to those with whom we are not in communion. No matter how orthodox you consider yourself, you are not Orthodox, you are Melkite. Melkites are not in any official capacity in communion with the Orthodox Church. Cease coming here to brag about your disrespect of our sacraments. A mistake made in ignorance would be one thing, and it would be on the priest's head, but you are no longer in ignorance. You are not Orthodox. You may not take communion in our Churches.

I will as long as my priest is ok with it.  God will not care if the priest is giving me communion and nor will God care that I am taking communion.  I am not bragging.  I came here originally asking if it is normal for Melkites to receive communion from an AEOC the way I already am at my current AEOC.  I'm sorry but it's not your decision to make.  It's between me, my priest, and apparently his bishop.

I don't know how normal it if in the Ant. Church, but it's rare in the other EO ones, absent some extreme circumstances when you could get ekonomia. Basically if you are Melkite as you claim, from our pov you should be going to a melkite church or else convert to our EO Communion. But you see our beliefs and understanding of communion as Politics.

No.  I see the differences between the Melkite Church and AEOC as political... i mean it was the case back in the day that caused the schism between them.  Again, a Bishop was elected by the Syrians that was pro-Rome but Constantinople didn't like him so they kicked him out and put someone else instead.  Church goers got upset and parted ways.  They didn't change anything about the theology, the liturgy, etc.
Yes you are de facto saying that our understanding of how communion works is political. Because in our understanding we do not have communion with Melkites because they are in communion with Rome not us.
Our understanding of communion and how it works is that we are not in communion with Rome. You are calling our beliefs about this political.

Yes that's what I mean.  The differences between the two are political not theological.  It would be nice if the Melkites and the Antiochian Orthodox merge back together again.
Until the schism is healed hierarchically, why not healing it at least for yourself? :P

And that's what I'm trying to do.  But I'm not going to get rebaptized to a member of the AEOC because my Melkite baptize should be enough.  Luckily the church I go to has a priest that understands that.

Offline rakovsky

  • Taxiarches
  • **********
  • Posts: 7,626
  • St. Mstislav I
    • The Old Testament Prophecies of the Messiah's Resurrection and Orthodox Christianity's roots in the Holy Land
  • Faith: Christian
  • Jurisdiction: Orthodox Church in America
Re: Did the Melkites accept papal infallibility?
« Reply #194 on: August 23, 2016, 08:20:57 PM »
Yes that's what I mean.  The differences between the two are political not theological.  It would be nice if the Melkites and the Antiochian Orthodox merge back together again.
But until that time you have chosen to call yourself Melkite Patriarchate of Newton, not Antiochian.
OK.

Offline RaphaCam

  • Hyperdox kid
  • OC.net guru
  • *******
  • Posts: 1,776
  • The Lord rebuke thee, O Satan!
  • Faith: Orthodox
  • Jurisdiction: Exarchate of Gotham City
Re: Did the Melkites accept papal infallibility?
« Reply #195 on: August 23, 2016, 08:33:57 PM »
If it's so, you could be clear to him that you wish to be part of the Eastern Orthodox Church and a spiritual child of his. Some Orthodox accept confession as validating baptism, but you should know that you cannot be part of the Catholic Church under the Pope via the Melkites; and part of the Antiochian Orthodox Church; at the same time. You must renounce communion with Heterodoxy and the heresy of universal jurisdiction that it implies, and it won't be proper that you attend Divine Liturgy with the Melkite Catholics anymore. Until then, you unfortunately aren't part of the Orthodox Church, as much as you may espouse (or wish to) her teachings, and taking communion under this condition is indeed sacrilegy.
« Last Edit: August 23, 2016, 08:35:38 PM by RaphaCam »
But the Lord is in his holy temple: let all the earth keep silence before him. (Holy Habakkuk 2:20)

Offline urg8rb8

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 65
  • Faith: Melkite
  • Jurisdiction: Eparchy of Newton
Re: Did the Melkites accept papal infallibility?
« Reply #196 on: August 23, 2016, 08:54:06 PM »
Yes that's what I mean.  The differences between the two are political not theological.  It would be nice if the Melkites and the Antiochian Orthodox merge back together again.
But until that time you have chosen to call yourself Melkite Patriarchate of Newton, not Antiochian.
OK.

You make an excellent point.  But that's why I'm here.  If I can get communion in an AEOC then I'll change in.  But someone will say "but I urg8rb8, aren't you already getting communion there at your local church?".  I am.... but apparently my priest and I are going to hell.  Lol

Offline urg8rb8

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 65
  • Faith: Melkite
  • Jurisdiction: Eparchy of Newton
Re: Did the Melkites accept papal infallibility?
« Reply #197 on: August 23, 2016, 08:55:50 PM »
If it's so, you could be clear to him that you wish to be part of the Eastern Orthodox Church and a spiritual child of his. Some Orthodox accept confession as validating baptism, but you should know that you cannot be part of the Catholic Church under the Pope via the Melkites; and part of the Antiochian Orthodox Church; at the same time. You must renounce communion with Heterodoxy and the heresy of universal jurisdiction that it implies, and it won't be proper that you attend Divine Liturgy with the Melkite Catholics anymore. Until then, you unfortunately aren't part of the Orthodox Church, as much as you may espouse (or wish to) her teachings, and taking communion under this condition is indeed sacrilegy.

I agree with everything you say besides the sacrilege of receiving communion.

Offline RaphaCam

  • Hyperdox kid
  • OC.net guru
  • *******
  • Posts: 1,776
  • The Lord rebuke thee, O Satan!
  • Faith: Orthodox
  • Jurisdiction: Exarchate of Gotham City
Re: Did the Melkites accept papal infallibility?
« Reply #198 on: August 23, 2016, 09:02:00 PM »
Well, even if you aren't convinced it's sacrilegy, you must at least recognise it's anti-scriptural, as St. Paul warns us in 1 Corinthians 11 that we mustn't share the Eucharist if there are divisions among us, and there are evidently divisions between the Melkites and the Antiochian Orthodox.
But the Lord is in his holy temple: let all the earth keep silence before him. (Holy Habakkuk 2:20)

Offline urg8rb8

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 65
  • Faith: Melkite
  • Jurisdiction: Eparchy of Newton
Re: Did the Melkites accept papal infallibility?
« Reply #199 on: August 23, 2016, 09:06:07 PM »
Well, even if you aren't convinced it's sacrilegy, you must at least recognise it's anti-scriptural, as St. Paul warns us in 1 Corinthians 11 that we mustn't share the Eucharist if there are divisions among us, and there are evidently divisions between the Melkites and the Antiochian Orthodox.

Yes there are political divisions.  But my AEOC priest had accepted there is no division.
« Last Edit: August 23, 2016, 09:23:27 PM by urg8rb8 »

Offline rakovsky

  • Taxiarches
  • **********
  • Posts: 7,626
  • St. Mstislav I
    • The Old Testament Prophecies of the Messiah's Resurrection and Orthodox Christianity's roots in the Holy Land
  • Faith: Christian
  • Jurisdiction: Orthodox Church in America
Re: Did the Melkites accept papal infallibility?
« Reply #200 on: August 23, 2016, 10:23:33 PM »
Please see these short statements by the Melkite and Ant. Orth. Churches here:
http://www.byzcath.org/index.php/resources-mainmenu-63/document-library-mainmenu-97/33-document-library/documents-of-the-byzantine-catholic-churches/2770-the-melkite-initiative-with-the-antiochian-orthodox-church

The Antiochians church says that fot the Melkite to have the same faith as the EOS it would need to stop accepting post schism RC councils as ecumenical for the whole church. Recognized ecumenical councils are seen by nature by the RCS and by many EOS as infallible. But the Non EO councils teach things EOS disagree with.
The Ant. Church does not accept intercommunion with Melkites at this point it says and it does not agree with having communion with Rome until the faith is lined up.

So to answer your question, the Ant. Orthodox and Orthodox do not agree with intercommunion with the RC communion at this point, because we do not agree all the teachings of councils you and the RCS call ecumenical after the Schism.

The Roman pope's follow up was diplomatic bc it said that you need the same beliefs to be in communion and the RCS and EOS do not have the same teachings. The Pope did not lay out in a raw form all that this entails. But it basically raises the question of what the melkites are doing in communion in Rome if they disagree with Rome's teachings of faith not just what you call politics.
« Last Edit: August 23, 2016, 10:30:23 PM by rakovsky »

Offline urg8rb8

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 65
  • Faith: Melkite
  • Jurisdiction: Eparchy of Newton
Re: Did the Melkites accept papal infallibility?
« Reply #201 on: August 23, 2016, 11:14:41 PM »
Please see these short statements by the Melkite and Ant. Orth. Churches here:
http://www.byzcath.org/index.php/resources-mainmenu-63/document-library-mainmenu-97/33-document-library/documents-of-the-byzantine-catholic-churches/2770-the-melkite-initiative-with-the-antiochian-orthodox-church

The Antiochians church says that fot the Melkite to have the same faith as the EOS it would need to stop accepting post schism RC councils as ecumenical for the whole church. Recognized ecumenical councils are seen by nature by the RCS and by many EOS as infallible. But the Non EO councils teach things EOS disagree with.
The Ant. Church does not accept intercommunion with Melkites at this point it says and it does not agree with having communion with Rome until the faith is lined up.

So to answer your question, the Ant. Orthodox and Orthodox do not agree with intercommunion with the RC communion at this point, because we do not agree all the teachings of councils you and the RCS call ecumenical after the Schism.

The Roman pope's follow up was diplomatic bc it said that you need the same beliefs to be in communion and the RCS and EOS do not have the same teachings. The Pope did not lay out in a raw form all that this entails. But it basically raises the question of what the melkites are doing in communion in Rome if they disagree with Rome's teachings of faith not just what you call politics.

That is a good question.  Why are Melkites, whose theology does not agree with Rome, in communion with them?  Maybe to the Melkite Bishop of Antioch, communion doesn't necessarily mean in theological agreement.  Maybe it means "hey we may theological and traditional differences but we can still be friends"?  I will find out the answer to this and I will ask Melkite clergy about this and see what they say about this.

About a year ago I asked a young ordained Melkite priest: "why did you decide to join the Melkites and not the Orthodox Church?". He said that it was a tough decision to make but that he felt that being a Melkite allowed his to follow the Orthodox faith yet be able to bridge the gap the west.

This is a very interesting topic to me as I continue to learn about early church history.  The divine liturgy at a RCC does nothing for me.  However, there is something about a St John Chrysostum divine liturgy, either at a Melkite or AEO church, that is really gravitating.
« Last Edit: August 23, 2016, 11:20:35 PM by urg8rb8 »

Offline rakovsky

  • Taxiarches
  • **********
  • Posts: 7,626
  • St. Mstislav I
    • The Old Testament Prophecies of the Messiah's Resurrection and Orthodox Christianity's roots in the Holy Land
  • Faith: Christian
  • Jurisdiction: Orthodox Church in America
Re: Did the Melkites accept papal infallibility?
« Reply #202 on: August 23, 2016, 11:29:27 PM »
That is a good question.  Why are Melkites, whose theology does not agree with Rome, in communion with them?  Maybe to the Melkite Bishop of Antioch, communion doesn't necessarily mean in theological agreement.  Maybe it means "hey we may theological and traditional differences but we can still be friends"?
They may answer that way.

And de facto you are left with a radically different understanding of communion, basically Open Communion - just one that you have selectively given to some and not others. Why not give communion to every single schismatic "Orthodox" group so long as they have basic teachings close to yours? Why not give communion to Lutherans and to Anglo-Catholics? I think you should if you are going to give communion to RCs and EOs alike. Lutheran/Anglican theology is in some ways closer to Orthodoxy and in other ways closer to the RCs, so if you are just going to give communion based on theology and think RC and EO theology are close enough, you might as well give communion to everyone else whose theology matches either the RCs' or EOs'.
« Last Edit: August 23, 2016, 11:33:50 PM by rakovsky »

Offline Mor Ephrem

  • ʿalayhi al-salām
  • Section Moderator
  • Protospatharios
  • *****
  • Posts: 28,817
  • Abp Yeznik Petrosian Defender of the Faith
    • OrthodoxChristianity.net
  • Faith: Orthodox
  • Jurisdiction: East
Mor is always the best :P

Mor gives each new member a golden shirt!  !trihs nedlog a rebmem wen hcae sevig roM 

Offline Mor Ephrem

  • ʿalayhi al-salām
  • Section Moderator
  • Protospatharios
  • *****
  • Posts: 28,817
  • Abp Yeznik Petrosian Defender of the Faith
    • OrthodoxChristianity.net
  • Faith: Orthodox
  • Jurisdiction: East
Re: Did the Melkites accept papal infallibility?
« Reply #204 on: August 23, 2016, 11:48:13 PM »

No.  I see the differences between the Melkite Church and AEOC as political... i mean it was the case back in the day that caused the schism between them.  Again, a Bishop was elected by the Syrians that was pro-Rome but Constantinople didn't like him so they kicked him out and put someone else instead.  Church goers got upset and parted ways.  They didn't change anything about the theology, the liturgy, etc.

This is a pretty inaccurate account of the Melkite Schism (see my comments about it above).  In any case, the first generations of Melkite Catholics were extremely Tridentinizing both in theology and liturgy. Euthymius Sayfi, the architect of the schism, even if he didn't live to see it, even translated the Tridentine Mass into Arabic and used it as the only liturgy in his diocese, until Rome put a stop to it because they realized that it was antagonizing potential converts. Their slide back in the direction of Orthodox praxis was pretty slow and is still incomplete. Especially in the Middle East, their liturgies can sometimes wind up looking more like reading the text of the Orthodox liturgy but with Novus Ordo rubrics and their popular piety draws more on Latin and Maronite sources than on the Orthodox.

Melkite uses the St. John Chrysostom Divine Liturgy.  The church even uses iconscreens.  The *ONLY* difference between the two is that the Melkite church (at least in the US) the priest dips the bread in the wine and puts it in your mouth... and doesn't use a spoon.  Otherwise you wouldn't know the difference (outside of the Pope being named in the Litany).

That makes all the difference. 
Mor is always the best :P

Mor gives each new member a golden shirt!  !trihs nedlog a rebmem wen hcae sevig roM 

Offline mike

  • Filthy Chalcedonian Liar
  • Protostrator
  • ***************
  • Posts: 23,948
  • Pray for Christians in Radom!
  • Faith: Christian
  • Jurisdiction: Diocese of Białystok and Gdańsk
Re: Did the Melkites accept papal infallibility?
« Reply #205 on: August 24, 2016, 12:31:05 AM »
I am also receiving communion in a worthy manner 

Not true.

Quote
I have  been given a trinitarian baptism in a church that completely holds true to orthodox theology.

Not true.

Quote
I am also a member of "your" church.

Not true.
« Last Edit: August 24, 2016, 12:57:27 AM by mike »
Hyperdox Herman, Eastern Orthodox Christian News - fb, Eastern Orthodox Christian News - tt

Quis custodiet ipsos custodes? Who can watch the watchmen?

Offline rakovsky

  • Taxiarches
  • **********
  • Posts: 7,626
  • St. Mstislav I
    • The Old Testament Prophecies of the Messiah's Resurrection and Orthodox Christianity's roots in the Holy Land
  • Faith: Christian
  • Jurisdiction: Orthodox Church in America
Re: Did the Melkites accept papal infallibility?
« Reply #206 on: August 24, 2016, 12:50:06 AM »
I am also a member of "your" church.  What do you think is the right way to do it?
If you are a member of the EO church, why are you putting your  jurisdiction as Melkite?

Offline urg8rb8

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 65
  • Faith: Melkite
  • Jurisdiction: Eparchy of Newton
Re: Did the Melkites accept papal infallibility?
« Reply #207 on: August 24, 2016, 10:38:47 AM »
That is a good question.  Why are Melkites, whose theology does not agree with Rome, in communion with them?  Maybe to the Melkite Bishop of Antioch, communion doesn't necessarily mean in theological agreement.  Maybe it means "hey we may theological and traditional differences but we can still be friends"?
They may answer that way.

And de facto you are left with a radically different understanding of communion, basically Open Communion - just one that you have selectively given to some and not others. Why not give communion to every single schismatic "Orthodox" group so long as they have basic teachings close to yours? Why not give communion to Lutherans and to Anglo-Catholics? I think you should if you are going to give communion to RCs and EOs alike. Lutheran/Anglican theology is in some ways closer to Orthodoxy and in other ways closer to the RCs, so if you are just going to give communion based on theology and think RC and EO theology are close enough, you might as well give communion to everyone else whose theology matches either the RCs' or EOs'.

I understand what you mean.  Side note:  I have taken communion in RCCs before and I usually get interesting looks when I don't reach my hand out to receive the Eucharist.

Offline urg8rb8

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 65
  • Faith: Melkite
  • Jurisdiction: Eparchy of Newton
Re: Did the Melkites accept papal infallibility?
« Reply #208 on: August 24, 2016, 10:40:17 AM »
I am also receiving communion in a worthy manner 

Not true.

Quote
I have  been given a trinitarian baptism in a church that completely holds true to orthodox theology.

Not true.

Quote
I am also a member of "your" church.

Not true.

If you say so! lol

Offline urg8rb8

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 65
  • Faith: Melkite
  • Jurisdiction: Eparchy of Newton
Re: Did the Melkites accept papal infallibility?
« Reply #209 on: August 24, 2016, 11:00:36 AM »
I am also a member of "your" church.  What do you think is the right way to do it?
If you are a member of the EO church, why are you putting your  jurisdiction as Melkite?

And that's what brings me here to the forum.  This is my thought process:  I was born into the Melkite Church and remained into it all my life (I was even an alter boy).  I would like to be part of the AEOC but I will not get rebaptised nor will I get the oil anointment -- I have already been baptized in a Church with theologically orthodox roots.. especially since we share the same Creed where we say we believe in one baptism.  So lets say my AEOC is giving me an exception and is allowing me to join and receive communion without rebaptism (which is pretty much the case right now).  The question now becomes... does this make me a member of the OC?  And if so, if follows that I should be free to attend any OC and receive communion there.

Offline Iconodule

  • Professor of Cryptopatristics at Miskatonic University
  • Merarches
  • ***********
  • Posts: 10,212
  • Monsters from the Id
  • Faith: Orthodox Christian
  • Jurisdiction: Ecumenical Patriarchate (ACROD)
Re: Did the Melkites accept papal infallibility?
« Reply #210 on: August 24, 2016, 11:08:58 AM »
As was said before, if you really are received into the Orthodox Church by communion (which is not unprecedented for Eastern Catholics), then yes, you would be a member of our Church, but in that case you need to refrain from communing in non-Orthodox churches, including the Melkite Catholic church.
« Last Edit: August 24, 2016, 11:09:37 AM by Iconodule »

Offline RaphaCam

  • Hyperdox kid
  • OC.net guru
  • *******
  • Posts: 1,776
  • The Lord rebuke thee, O Satan!
  • Faith: Orthodox
  • Jurisdiction: Exarchate of Gotham City
Re: Did the Melkites accept papal infallibility?
« Reply #211 on: August 24, 2016, 11:30:19 AM »
As was said before, if you really are received into the Orthodox Church by communion (which is not unprecedented for Eastern Catholics), then yes, you would be a member of our Church, but in that case you need to refrain from communing in non-Orthodox churches, including the Melkite Catholic church.
/thread
But the Lord is in his holy temple: let all the earth keep silence before him. (Holy Habakkuk 2:20)

Offline rakovsky

  • Taxiarches
  • **********
  • Posts: 7,626
  • St. Mstislav I
    • The Old Testament Prophecies of the Messiah's Resurrection and Orthodox Christianity's roots in the Holy Land
  • Faith: Christian
  • Jurisdiction: Orthodox Church in America
Re: Did the Melkites accept papal infallibility?
« Reply #212 on: August 24, 2016, 11:44:51 AM »

And that's what brings me here to the forum.  This is my thought process:  I was born into the Melkite Church and remained into it all my life (I was even an alter boy).  I would like to be part of the AEOC but I will not get rebaptised nor will I get the oil anointment -- I have already been baptized in a Church with theologically orthodox roots.. especially since we share the same Creed where we say we believe in one baptism.  So lets say my AEOC is giving me an exception and is allowing me to join and receive communion without rebaptism (which is pretty much the case right now).  The question now becomes... does this make me a member of the OC?  And if so, if follows that I should be free to attend any OC and receive communion there.
You wouldn't be rebaptized. I don't know whether Eastern Catholics are chrismated, but I think not.

You would make a profession of faith at Confession that you agree to accept Orthodoxy and renounce Rome. St. Alexis Toth, an Eastern Catholic convert, made this confession audibly at a public ceremony when he joined Orthodoxy. But I think normally it's in private confession.
« Last Edit: August 24, 2016, 11:45:19 AM by rakovsky »

Offline mike

  • Filthy Chalcedonian Liar
  • Protostrator
  • ***************
  • Posts: 23,948
  • Pray for Christians in Radom!
  • Faith: Christian
  • Jurisdiction: Diocese of Białystok and Gdańsk
Re: Did the Melkites accept papal infallibility?
« Reply #213 on: August 24, 2016, 01:37:25 PM »
The conversion requires conversion. It doesn't happen gradually out of itself.
Hyperdox Herman, Eastern Orthodox Christian News - fb, Eastern Orthodox Christian News - tt

Quis custodiet ipsos custodes? Who can watch the watchmen?

Online Schultz

  • Christian. Guitarist. Scooterist. Zymurgist. Librarian.
  • Taxiarches
  • **********
  • Posts: 6,617
  • Scion of the McKeesport Becks.
Re: Did the Melkites accept papal infallibility?
« Reply #214 on: August 24, 2016, 01:37:47 PM »

And that's what brings me here to the forum.  This is my thought process:  I was born into the Melkite Church and remained into it all my life (I was even an alter boy).  I would like to be part of the AEOC but I will not get rebaptised nor will I get the oil anointment -- I have already been baptized in a Church with theologically orthodox roots.. especially since we share the same Creed where we say we believe in one baptism.  So lets say my AEOC is giving me an exception and is allowing me to join and receive communion without rebaptism (which is pretty much the case right now).  The question now becomes... does this make me a member of the OC?  And if so, if follows that I should be free to attend any OC and receive communion there.
You wouldn't be rebaptized. I don't know whether Eastern Catholics are chrismated, but I think not.

You would make a profession of faith at Confession that you agree to accept Orthodoxy and renounce Rome. St. Alexis Toth, an Eastern Catholic convert, made this confession audibly at a public ceremony when he joined Orthodoxy. But I think normally it's in private confession.

When I, a born Catholic, was accepted into the Orthodox Church (OCA), we followed the Hapgood service book in which we assented to rejecting Roman doctrine with an "I do."
"Hearing a nun's confession is like being stoned to death with popcorn." --Abp. Fulton Sheen

Offline Remnkemi

  • Elder
  • *****
  • Posts: 257
Re: Did the Melkites accept papal infallibility?
« Reply #215 on: August 24, 2016, 03:51:32 PM »

And that's what brings me here to the forum.  This is my thought process:  I was born into the Melkite Church and remained into it all my life (I was even an alter boy).  I would like to be part of the AEOC but I will not get rebaptised nor will I get the oil anointment -- I have already been baptized in a Church with theologically orthodox roots.. especially since we share the same Creed where we say we believe in one baptism.  So lets say my AEOC is giving me an exception and is allowing me to join and receive communion without rebaptism (which is pretty much the case right now).  The question now becomes... does this make me a member of the OC?  And if so, if follows that I should be free to attend any OC and receive communion there.

You wouldn't be rebaptized. I don't know whether Eastern Catholics are chrismated, but I think not.

You would make a profession of faith at Confession that you agree to accept Orthodoxy and renounce Rome. St. Alexis Toth, an Eastern Catholic convert, made this confession audibly at a public ceremony when he joined Orthodoxy. But I think normally it's in private confession.

When I, a born Catholic, was accepted into the Orthodox Church (OCA), we followed the Hapgood service book in which we assented to rejecting Roman doctrine with an "I do."
Where exactly is the renouncement to Roman doctrine in Hapgood's book? What is the exact text? I couldn't find it.

Offline Mor Ephrem

  • ʿalayhi al-salām
  • Section Moderator
  • Protospatharios
  • *****
  • Posts: 28,817
  • Abp Yeznik Petrosian Defender of the Faith
    • OrthodoxChristianity.net
  • Faith: Orthodox
  • Jurisdiction: East
Re: Did the Melkites accept papal infallibility?
« Reply #216 on: August 24, 2016, 04:14:07 PM »

And that's what brings me here to the forum.  This is my thought process:  I was born into the Melkite Church and remained into it all my life (I was even an alter boy).  I would like to be part of the AEOC but I will not get rebaptised nor will I get the oil anointment -- I have already been baptized in a Church with theologically orthodox roots.. especially since we share the same Creed where we say we believe in one baptism.  So lets say my AEOC is giving me an exception and is allowing me to join and receive communion without rebaptism (which is pretty much the case right now).  The question now becomes... does this make me a member of the OC?  And if so, if follows that I should be free to attend any OC and receive communion there.

You wouldn't be rebaptized. I don't know whether Eastern Catholics are chrismated, but I think not.

You would make a profession of faith at Confession that you agree to accept Orthodoxy and renounce Rome. St. Alexis Toth, an Eastern Catholic convert, made this confession audibly at a public ceremony when he joined Orthodoxy. But I think normally it's in private confession.

When I, a born Catholic, was accepted into the Orthodox Church (OCA), we followed the Hapgood service book in which we assented to rejecting Roman doctrine with an "I do."
Where exactly is the renouncement to Roman doctrine in Hapgood's book? What is the exact text? I couldn't find it.

P. 454ff
Mor is always the best :P

Mor gives each new member a golden shirt!  !trihs nedlog a rebmem wen hcae sevig roM 

Offline RaphaCam

  • Hyperdox kid
  • OC.net guru
  • *******
  • Posts: 1,776
  • The Lord rebuke thee, O Satan!
  • Faith: Orthodox
  • Jurisdiction: Exarchate of Gotham City
Re: Did the Melkites accept papal infallibility?
« Reply #217 on: August 24, 2016, 04:34:54 PM »
The renouncement for Armenians describes Eutychianism.  ???
But the Lord is in his holy temple: let all the earth keep silence before him. (Holy Habakkuk 2:20)

Offline Mor Ephrem

  • ʿalayhi al-salām
  • Section Moderator
  • Protospatharios
  • *****
  • Posts: 28,817
  • Abp Yeznik Petrosian Defender of the Faith
    • OrthodoxChristianity.net
  • Faith: Orthodox
  • Jurisdiction: East
Re: Did the Melkites accept papal infallibility?
« Reply #218 on: August 24, 2016, 04:41:18 PM »
The renouncement for Armenians describes Eutychianism.  ???

;)
Mor is always the best :P

Mor gives each new member a golden shirt!  !trihs nedlog a rebmem wen hcae sevig roM 

Offline Antonis

  • Μέγα το Θαυμά!
  • Archon
  • ********
  • Posts: 2,319
  • St. Nephon the Ascetic Bishop
  • Faith: Orthodox Christian
  • Jurisdiction: GOA
Re: Did the Melkites accept papal infallibility?
« Reply #219 on: August 24, 2016, 04:51:48 PM »
The renouncement for Armenians describes Eutychianism.  ???
Have you read Abp. Petrosian?
You sound like a professional who knows what he's talking about.  That's because you are.

20-year-old chanters know everything

"This is the one from the beginning, who seemed to be new, yet was found to be ancient and always young, being born in the hearts of the saints."
Letter to Diognetus 11.4

Offline Mor Ephrem

  • ʿalayhi al-salām
  • Section Moderator
  • Protospatharios
  • *****
  • Posts: 28,817
  • Abp Yeznik Petrosian Defender of the Faith
    • OrthodoxChristianity.net
  • Faith: Orthodox
  • Jurisdiction: East
Re: Did the Melkites accept papal infallibility?
« Reply #220 on: August 24, 2016, 04:54:56 PM »
The renouncement for Armenians describes Eutychianism.  ???
Have you read Abp. Petrosian?

Mor is always the best :P

Mor gives each new member a golden shirt!  !trihs nedlog a rebmem wen hcae sevig roM 

Offline RaphaCam

  • Hyperdox kid
  • OC.net guru
  • *******
  • Posts: 1,776
  • The Lord rebuke thee, O Satan!
  • Faith: Orthodox
  • Jurisdiction: Exarchate of Gotham City
Re: Did the Melkites accept papal infallibility?
« Reply #221 on: August 24, 2016, 05:06:20 PM »
The renouncement for Armenians describes Eutychianism.  ???
Have you read Abp. Petrosian?
No but maybe rakovsky has mentioned him somewhere, are we baiting Mor or is he actually Eutychian-ish?
But the Lord is in his holy temple: let all the earth keep silence before him. (Holy Habakkuk 2:20)

Offline rakovsky

  • Taxiarches
  • **********
  • Posts: 7,626
  • St. Mstislav I
    • The Old Testament Prophecies of the Messiah's Resurrection and Orthodox Christianity's roots in the Holy Land
  • Faith: Christian
  • Jurisdiction: Orthodox Church in America
Re: Did the Melkites accept papal infallibility?
« Reply #222 on: August 24, 2016, 05:21:40 PM »
The renouncement for Armenians describes Eutychianism.  ???
Have you read Abp. Petrosian?
No but maybe rakovsky has mentioned him somewhere, are we baiting Mor or is he actually Eutychian-ish?
Actually, I agree with Salpy that it would be best to have Armenians explain what Abp. Petrosian was talking about, even though I was able to get the original Armenian text and have an Armenian translate it. And Mor is right about the Unpredictable Triggers. It's better for another section:
http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,65925.0.html

Offline Antonis

  • Μέγα το Θαυμά!
  • Archon
  • ********
  • Posts: 2,319
  • St. Nephon the Ascetic Bishop
  • Faith: Orthodox Christian
  • Jurisdiction: GOA
Re: Did the Melkites accept papal infallibility?
« Reply #223 on: August 24, 2016, 06:01:43 PM »
You sound like a professional who knows what he's talking about.  That's because you are.

20-year-old chanters know everything

"This is the one from the beginning, who seemed to be new, yet was found to be ancient and always young, being born in the hearts of the saints."
Letter to Diognetus 11.4

Online Schultz

  • Christian. Guitarist. Scooterist. Zymurgist. Librarian.
  • Taxiarches
  • **********
  • Posts: 6,617
  • Scion of the McKeesport Becks.
Re: Did the Melkites accept papal infallibility?
« Reply #224 on: August 26, 2016, 10:18:14 AM »

And that's what brings me here to the forum.  This is my thought process:  I was born into the Melkite Church and remained into it all my life (I was even an alter boy).  I would like to be part of the AEOC but I will not get rebaptised nor will I get the oil anointment -- I have already been baptized in a Church with theologically orthodox roots.. especially since we share the same Creed where we say we believe in one baptism.  So lets say my AEOC is giving me an exception and is allowing me to join and receive communion without rebaptism (which is pretty much the case right now).  The question now becomes... does this make me a member of the OC?  And if so, if follows that I should be free to attend any OC and receive communion there.

You wouldn't be rebaptized. I don't know whether Eastern Catholics are chrismated, but I think not.

You would make a profession of faith at Confession that you agree to accept Orthodoxy and renounce Rome. St. Alexis Toth, an Eastern Catholic convert, made this confession audibly at a public ceremony when he joined Orthodoxy. But I think normally it's in private confession.

When I, a born Catholic, was accepted into the Orthodox Church (OCA), we followed the Hapgood service book in which we assented to rejecting Roman doctrine with an "I do."
Where exactly is the renouncement to Roman doctrine in Hapgood's book? What is the exact text? I couldn't find it.

P. 454ff

Screencaps (with highlights) from the version on archive.org:

"Hearing a nun's confession is like being stoned to death with popcorn." --Abp. Fulton Sheen