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Offline ialmisry

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Re: On marrying a second wife
« Reply #135 on: July 20, 2016, 03:25:13 PM »
All apostolic churches have annulments

The possibility to declare a marriage null rather than to dissolve it through a divorce certainly exists, but it is usually not done because our Church knows how to confer the sacraments.

The church in America does not equal the church in the rest of the world. Never mind that the annulment mess in the west is a novelty and a modern phenomenon
Oh?
IF they are indeed the same set of complaints and one gets a divorce blessed by the Church and the other gets an annulment...then for me, it seems more faithful to toe the hard line laid out in the gospels and epistles.
Changing hypocrisy into corban isn't toeing the hard line.  We have that on great authority.  Mark 7:11-13.

The "Borgias" has a lot interesting scenes on this topic.  Lucretia's marriage was just annulled, because her husband refused the aid promised in the bride price, but offiically because of impotance.
Btw, he wasn't-the Pope demanded he prove otherwise by intercourse before the tribunal with three fat, old, ugly and syphallitic whores of the pope's choosing.
Quote
A few episodes back Pope Alexander scolds his present mistress for suggesting that his son (from another mistress) Cesare, the cardinal, marry for an alliance:"He is a cardinal.  He can never marry." Odd, as IIRC the first episode opens with Cesare in a brothel, later carrying on an affair and killing the husband, and in real life he had an affair with his brother Geoffrey's wife.  Such a scandal that he should marry!

Unfortunately, recent news tells us that clerical concubines for the Vatican's "all celibate" priesthood did not go out of fashion with the Borgias.

Charles VIII of France showed up in this episode, which invokes this tidbit:

Quote
In 1476, Louis was required to marry the pious Joan of France (1464–1505), the daughter of his second cousin, Louis XI, the middle-aged "Spider King" of France. After Louis XII's predecessor Charles VIII died childless, Louis' marriage was annulled in order to allow him to marry Charles’ widow, the former Queen-Consort, Anne of Brittany (1477–1514), who was the daughter and heiress of Francis II of Brittany, in a strategy meant to integrate the duchy of Brittany into the French monarchy.

The annulment, described as "one of the seamiest lawsuits of the age", was not simple, however. Louis did not, as might be expected, argue the marriage to be void due to consanguinity (the general allowance for the dissolution of a marriage at that time). Though he could produce witnesses to claim that the two were closely related due to various linking marriages, there was no documentary proof, merely the opinions of courtiers. Likewise, Louis could not argue that he had been below the legal age of consent (fourteen) to marry: no one was certain when he had been born, with Louis claiming to have been twelve at the time, and others ranging in their estimates between eleven and thirteen. As there was no real proof, however, he was forced to make other arguments.

Accordingly, Louis (much to the horror of his Queen) claimed that she was physically malformed, providing a rich variety of detail precisely how, and that he had therefore been unable to consummate the marriage. Joan, unsurprisingly, fought this uncertain charge fiercely, producing witnesses to Louis' boast of having "mounted my wife three or four times during the night." Louis also claimed that his sexual performance had been inhibited by witchcraft; Joan responded by asking how he was able to know what it was like to try to make love to her.

Had the Papacy been a neutral party, Joan would likely have won, for Louis' case was exceedingly weak. Unfortunately for the Queen, Pope Alexander VI (the former Roderic Borja) was committed for political reasons to grant the divorce, and accordingly he ruled against Joan, granting the annulment. Outraged, she reluctantly stepped aside, saying that she would pray for her former husband, and Louis married the equally reluctant former Queen, Anne.

After the death of Anne, Louis then married Mary Tudor (1496–1533), the sister of Henry VIII, the King of England in Abbeville, France, on 9 October 1514, in an attempt to conceive an heir to his throne and perhaps to further establish a future claim for his descendants upon the English throne as well. He was ultimately unsuccessful.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Louis_XII_of_France#Marriages

It is not too fine a line between lip service and mockery.

I should amend this to say that I do not begrudge Orthodoxy her tradition.  I simply see no reason for the Catholic Church to follow suit.
Orthodoxy is the Tradition of the Catholic Church.

And I'm still at a loss: what purpose to you see in calling a divorce an annullment, in particular given the destruction to the institution (not to meantion the Faith and credibility of the Church) by doing so?

Divorce has made a mockery of marriage today, but "annulment" has made it an absolute farce.

So please spare us this nonsense.
« Last Edit: July 20, 2016, 03:34:17 PM by ialmisry »
Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth

Offline Wandile

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Re: On marrying a second wife
« Reply #136 on: July 20, 2016, 03:41:18 PM »
All apostolic churches have annulments

The possibility to declare a marriage null rather than to dissolve it through a divorce certainly exists, but it is usually not done because our Church knows how to confer the sacraments.

The church in America does not equal the church in the rest of the world. Never mind that the annulment mess in the west is a novelty and a modern phenomenon
Oh?
IF they are indeed the same set of complaints and one gets a divorce blessed by the Church and the other gets an annulment...then for me, it seems more faithful to toe the hard line laid out in the gospels and epistles.
Changing hypocrisy into corban isn't toeing the hard line.  We have that on great authority.  Mark 7:11-13.

The "Borgias" has a lot interesting scenes on this topic.  Lucretia's marriage was just annulled, because her husband refused the aid promised in the bride price, but offiically because of impotance.
Btw, he wasn't-the Pope demanded he prove otherwise by intercourse before the tribunal with three fat, old, ugly and syphallitic whores of the pope's choosing.
Quote
A few episodes back Pope Alexander scolds his present mistress for suggesting that his son (from another mistress) Cesare, the cardinal, marry for an alliance:"He is a cardinal.  He can never marry." Odd, as IIRC the first episode opens with Cesare in a brothel, later carrying on an affair and killing the husband, and in real life he had an affair with his brother Geoffrey's wife.  Such a scandal that he should marry!

Unfortunately, recent news tells us that clerical concubines for the Vatican's "all celibate" priesthood did not go out of fashion with the Borgias.

Charles VIII of France showed up in this episode, which invokes this tidbit:

Quote
In 1476, Louis was required to marry the pious Joan of France (1464–1505), the daughter of his second cousin, Louis XI, the middle-aged "Spider King" of France. After Louis XII's predecessor Charles VIII died childless, Louis' marriage was annulled in order to allow him to marry Charles’ widow, the former Queen-Consort, Anne of Brittany (1477–1514), who was the daughter and heiress of Francis II of Brittany, in a strategy meant to integrate the duchy of Brittany into the French monarchy.

The annulment, described as "one of the seamiest lawsuits of the age", was not simple, however. Louis did not, as might be expected, argue the marriage to be void due to consanguinity (the general allowance for the dissolution of a marriage at that time). Though he could produce witnesses to claim that the two were closely related due to various linking marriages, there was no documentary proof, merely the opinions of courtiers. Likewise, Louis could not argue that he had been below the legal age of consent (fourteen) to marry: no one was certain when he had been born, with Louis claiming to have been twelve at the time, and others ranging in their estimates between eleven and thirteen. As there was no real proof, however, he was forced to make other arguments.

Accordingly, Louis (much to the horror of his Queen) claimed that she was physically malformed, providing a rich variety of detail precisely how, and that he had therefore been unable to consummate the marriage. Joan, unsurprisingly, fought this uncertain charge fiercely, producing witnesses to Louis' boast of having "mounted my wife three or four times during the night." Louis also claimed that his sexual performance had been inhibited by witchcraft; Joan responded by asking how he was able to know what it was like to try to make love to her.

Had the Papacy been a neutral party, Joan would likely have won, for Louis' case was exceedingly weak. Unfortunately for the Queen, Pope Alexander VI (the former Roderic Borja) was committed for political reasons to grant the divorce, and accordingly he ruled against Joan, granting the annulment. Outraged, she reluctantly stepped aside, saying that she would pray for her former husband, and Louis married the equally reluctant former Queen, Anne.

After the death of Anne, Louis then married Mary Tudor (1496–1533), the sister of Henry VIII, the King of England in Abbeville, France, on 9 October 1514, in an attempt to conceive an heir to his throne and perhaps to further establish a future claim for his descendants upon the English throne as well. He was ultimately unsuccessful.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Louis_XII_of_France#Marriages

It is not too fine a line between lip service and mockery.

I should amend this to say that I do not begrudge Orthodoxy her tradition.  I simply see no reason for the Catholic Church to follow suit.
Orthodoxy is the Tradition of the Catholic Church.

And I'm still at a loss: what purpose to you see in calling a divorce an annullment, in particular given the destruction to the institution (not to meantion the Faith and credibility of the Church) by doing so?

Divorce has made a mockery of marriage today, but "annulment" has made it an absolute farce.

So please spare us this nonsense.

You speak with so much hatred. It's why I never even try to engage with you.
"We shall steer safely through every storm, so long as our heart is right, our intention fervent, our courage steadfast, and our trust fixed on God"
-St. Francis De Sales

Venerable Benedict Daswa and Blessed Isidore Bakanja, Martyrs of Africa, pray for the Church today

Offline Arachne

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Re: On marrying a second wife
« Reply #137 on: July 20, 2016, 03:45:31 PM »
Since we have been served heapings of Vatican sanctimony, I thought we should have some cooked by one of their chefs, courtesy of Fr. Ambrose (Many Years!).

Reasons for annulment listed in Judging Invalidity ©2002, By Fr. Lawrence G. Wrenn

Working out a couple of hours a day in the gym.
Being described as arrogant and selfish with an "I don't need anyone else" attitude.
Saving one's salary in a personal account.
Seeming to be obsessed with one's body (personal appearance).
Ignoring one's parents on one occasion when they came for a visit.
Seeing the world as his apple. (Psychiatric expert's term)
Never being satisfied with a gift given by one's spouse.
Feeling chronically disenfranchised in one's (spousal) relationship.
Not achieving the desired companionship and intimacy one wants in marriage.
Suffering abandonment issues over a father who died. Protecting herself by putting a hard shell around herself.
Suffering from low self-esteem, self-absorption, and a need for attention.
Lacking emphathy and fearing intimacy.
Comparing oneself to others and always finding them happier. About a month before the wedding he drove his mother to a family reunion, leaving her all alone to make preparations for the wedding.
The psychiatric expert described the respondent as porcupinish. He didn't want people near him; surprises he liked even less. It was noted in the proceedings, however, that he was in love with another woman.
The petitioner's mother always resented her. The mother was unreasonably strict and hypercritical.
That book, btw, is THE textbook for canon lawyers.

Well, that explains everything. If there's no grown-up reason to break up, you get an annulment. If crap's got real, you get a divorce.
'When you live your path all the time, you end up with both more path and more time.'~Venecia Rauls

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Offline ialmisry

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Re: On marrying a second wife
« Reply #138 on: July 20, 2016, 03:47:21 PM »
All apostolic churches have annulments

The possibility to declare a marriage null rather than to dissolve it through a divorce certainly exists, but it is usually not done because our Church knows how to confer the sacraments.

The church in America does not equal the church in the rest of the world. Never mind that the annulment mess in the west is a novelty and a modern phenomenon
Oh?
IF they are indeed the same set of complaints and one gets a divorce blessed by the Church and the other gets an annulment...then for me, it seems more faithful to toe the hard line laid out in the gospels and epistles.
Changing hypocrisy into corban isn't toeing the hard line.  We have that on great authority.  Mark 7:11-13.

The "Borgias" has a lot interesting scenes on this topic.  Lucretia's marriage was just annulled, because her husband refused the aid promised in the bride price, but offiically because of impotance.
Btw, he wasn't-the Pope demanded he prove otherwise by intercourse before the tribunal with three fat, old, ugly and syphallitic whores of the pope's choosing.
Quote
A few episodes back Pope Alexander scolds his present mistress for suggesting that his son (from another mistress) Cesare, the cardinal, marry for an alliance:"He is a cardinal.  He can never marry." Odd, as IIRC the first episode opens with Cesare in a brothel, later carrying on an affair and killing the husband, and in real life he had an affair with his brother Geoffrey's wife.  Such a scandal that he should marry!

Unfortunately, recent news tells us that clerical concubines for the Vatican's "all celibate" priesthood did not go out of fashion with the Borgias.

Charles VIII of France showed up in this episode, which invokes this tidbit:

Quote
In 1476, Louis was required to marry the pious Joan of France (1464–1505), the daughter of his second cousin, Louis XI, the middle-aged "Spider King" of France. After Louis XII's predecessor Charles VIII died childless, Louis' marriage was annulled in order to allow him to marry Charles’ widow, the former Queen-Consort, Anne of Brittany (1477–1514), who was the daughter and heiress of Francis II of Brittany, in a strategy meant to integrate the duchy of Brittany into the French monarchy.

The annulment, described as "one of the seamiest lawsuits of the age", was not simple, however. Louis did not, as might be expected, argue the marriage to be void due to consanguinity (the general allowance for the dissolution of a marriage at that time). Though he could produce witnesses to claim that the two were closely related due to various linking marriages, there was no documentary proof, merely the opinions of courtiers. Likewise, Louis could not argue that he had been below the legal age of consent (fourteen) to marry: no one was certain when he had been born, with Louis claiming to have been twelve at the time, and others ranging in their estimates between eleven and thirteen. As there was no real proof, however, he was forced to make other arguments.

Accordingly, Louis (much to the horror of his Queen) claimed that she was physically malformed, providing a rich variety of detail precisely how, and that he had therefore been unable to consummate the marriage. Joan, unsurprisingly, fought this uncertain charge fiercely, producing witnesses to Louis' boast of having "mounted my wife three or four times during the night." Louis also claimed that his sexual performance had been inhibited by witchcraft; Joan responded by asking how he was able to know what it was like to try to make love to her.

Had the Papacy been a neutral party, Joan would likely have won, for Louis' case was exceedingly weak. Unfortunately for the Queen, Pope Alexander VI (the former Roderic Borja) was committed for political reasons to grant the divorce, and accordingly he ruled against Joan, granting the annulment. Outraged, she reluctantly stepped aside, saying that she would pray for her former husband, and Louis married the equally reluctant former Queen, Anne.

After the death of Anne, Louis then married Mary Tudor (1496–1533), the sister of Henry VIII, the King of England in Abbeville, France, on 9 October 1514, in an attempt to conceive an heir to his throne and perhaps to further establish a future claim for his descendants upon the English throne as well. He was ultimately unsuccessful.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Louis_XII_of_France#Marriages

It is not too fine a line between lip service and mockery.

I should amend this to say that I do not begrudge Orthodoxy her tradition.  I simply see no reason for the Catholic Church to follow suit.
Orthodoxy is the Tradition of the Catholic Church.

And I'm still at a loss: what purpose to you see in calling a divorce an annullment, in particular given the destruction to the institution (not to meantion the Faith and credibility of the Church) by doing so?

Divorce has made a mockery of marriage today, but "annulment" has made it an absolute farce.

So please spare us this nonsense.

You speak with so much hatred. It's why I never even try to engage with you.
any yet here you are.

I just speak the facts. That you hate them is your problem, not mine.
Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth

Offline Wandile

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Re: On marrying a second wife
« Reply #139 on: July 21, 2016, 03:40:50 PM »
All apostolic churches have annulments

The possibility to declare a marriage null rather than to dissolve it through a divorce certainly exists, but it is usually not done because our Church knows how to confer the sacraments.

The church in America does not equal the church in the rest of the world. Never mind that the annulment mess in the west is a novelty and a modern phenomenon
Oh?
IF they are indeed the same set of complaints and one gets a divorce blessed by the Church and the other gets an annulment...then for me, it seems more faithful to toe the hard line laid out in the gospels and epistles.
Changing hypocrisy into corban isn't toeing the hard line.  We have that on great authority.  Mark 7:11-13.

The "Borgias" has a lot interesting scenes on this topic.  Lucretia's marriage was just annulled, because her husband refused the aid promised in the bride price, but offiically because of impotance.
Btw, he wasn't-the Pope demanded he prove otherwise by intercourse before the tribunal with three fat, old, ugly and syphallitic whores of the pope's choosing.
Quote
A few episodes back Pope Alexander scolds his present mistress for suggesting that his son (from another mistress) Cesare, the cardinal, marry for an alliance:"He is a cardinal.  He can never marry." Odd, as IIRC the first episode opens with Cesare in a brothel, later carrying on an affair and killing the husband, and in real life he had an affair with his brother Geoffrey's wife.  Such a scandal that he should marry!

Unfortunately, recent news tells us that clerical concubines for the Vatican's "all celibate" priesthood did not go out of fashion with the Borgias.

Charles VIII of France showed up in this episode, which invokes this tidbit:

Quote
In 1476, Louis was required to marry the pious Joan of France (1464–1505), the daughter of his second cousin, Louis XI, the middle-aged "Spider King" of France. After Louis XII's predecessor Charles VIII died childless, Louis' marriage was annulled in order to allow him to marry Charles’ widow, the former Queen-Consort, Anne of Brittany (1477–1514), who was the daughter and heiress of Francis II of Brittany, in a strategy meant to integrate the duchy of Brittany into the French monarchy.

The annulment, described as "one of the seamiest lawsuits of the age", was not simple, however. Louis did not, as might be expected, argue the marriage to be void due to consanguinity (the general allowance for the dissolution of a marriage at that time). Though he could produce witnesses to claim that the two were closely related due to various linking marriages, there was no documentary proof, merely the opinions of courtiers. Likewise, Louis could not argue that he had been below the legal age of consent (fourteen) to marry: no one was certain when he had been born, with Louis claiming to have been twelve at the time, and others ranging in their estimates between eleven and thirteen. As there was no real proof, however, he was forced to make other arguments.

Accordingly, Louis (much to the horror of his Queen) claimed that she was physically malformed, providing a rich variety of detail precisely how, and that he had therefore been unable to consummate the marriage. Joan, unsurprisingly, fought this uncertain charge fiercely, producing witnesses to Louis' boast of having "mounted my wife three or four times during the night." Louis also claimed that his sexual performance had been inhibited by witchcraft; Joan responded by asking how he was able to know what it was like to try to make love to her.

Had the Papacy been a neutral party, Joan would likely have won, for Louis' case was exceedingly weak. Unfortunately for the Queen, Pope Alexander VI (the former Roderic Borja) was committed for political reasons to grant the divorce, and accordingly he ruled against Joan, granting the annulment. Outraged, she reluctantly stepped aside, saying that she would pray for her former husband, and Louis married the equally reluctant former Queen, Anne.

After the death of Anne, Louis then married Mary Tudor (1496–1533), the sister of Henry VIII, the King of England in Abbeville, France, on 9 October 1514, in an attempt to conceive an heir to his throne and perhaps to further establish a future claim for his descendants upon the English throne as well. He was ultimately unsuccessful.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Louis_XII_of_France#Marriages

It is not too fine a line between lip service and mockery.

I should amend this to say that I do not begrudge Orthodoxy her tradition.  I simply see no reason for the Catholic Church to follow suit.
Orthodoxy is the Tradition of the Catholic Church.

And I'm still at a loss: what purpose to you see in calling a divorce an annullment, in particular given the destruction to the institution (not to meantion the Faith and credibility of the Church) by doing so?

Divorce has made a mockery of marriage today, but "annulment" has made it an absolute farce.

So please spare us this nonsense.

You speak with so much hatred. It's why I never even try to engage with you.
any yet here you are.

I just speak the facts. That you hate them is your problem, not mine.

Before we can ever discuss anything...

Say the name of my communion.
"We shall steer safely through every storm, so long as our heart is right, our intention fervent, our courage steadfast, and our trust fixed on God"
-St. Francis De Sales

Venerable Benedict Daswa and Blessed Isidore Bakanja, Martyrs of Africa, pray for the Church today

Offline Wandile

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Re: On marrying a second wife
« Reply #140 on: July 21, 2016, 03:45:13 PM »
Since we have been served heapings of Vatican sanctimony, I thought we should have some cooked by one of their chefs, courtesy of Fr. Ambrose (Many Years!).

Reasons for annulment listed in Judging Invalidity ©2002, By Fr. Lawrence G. Wrenn

Working out a couple of hours a day in the gym.
Being described as arrogant and selfish with an "I don't need anyone else" attitude.
Saving one's salary in a personal account.
Seeming to be obsessed with one's body (personal appearance).
Ignoring one's parents on one occasion when they came for a visit.
Seeing the world as his apple. (Psychiatric expert's term)
Never being satisfied with a gift given by one's spouse.
Feeling chronically disenfranchised in one's (spousal) relationship.
Not achieving the desired companionship and intimacy one wants in marriage.
Suffering abandonment issues over a father who died. Protecting herself by putting a hard shell around herself.
Suffering from low self-esteem, self-absorption, and a need for attention.
Lacking emphathy and fearing intimacy.
Comparing oneself to others and always finding them happier. About a month before the wedding he drove his mother to a family reunion, leaving her all alone to make preparations for the wedding.
The psychiatric expert described the respondent as porcupinish. He didn't want people near him; surprises he liked even less. It was noted in the proceedings, however, that he was in love with another woman.
The petitioner's mother always resented her. The mother was unreasonably strict and hypercritical.
That book, btw, is THE textbook for canon lawyers.

Well, that explains everything. If there's no grown-up reason to break up, you get an annulment. If crap's got real, you get a divorce.

I don't know what the church in the west has going on. But here it's rare to find an annulment. I haven't known anybody so far who has one. Not even my parents. People in the church here get clear cut divorces.  The church here is more in line with the way annulments were handed out before it went crazy in the west.

Then again the west is full of heretical opinions and the church in the rest of the world is a nuisance at times to them as we remind them of their errors. Without any shame.
« Last Edit: July 21, 2016, 03:46:07 PM by Wandile »
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Venerable Benedict Daswa and Blessed Isidore Bakanja, Martyrs of Africa, pray for the Church today

Offline Mor Ephrem

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Re: On marrying a second wife
« Reply #141 on: July 21, 2016, 03:55:16 PM »
I don't know what the church in the west has going on. But here it's rare to find an annulment. I haven't known anybody so far who has one. Not even my parents. People in the church here get clear cut divorces.  The church here is more in line with the way annulments were handed out before it went crazy in the west.

Let me get this straight.  We issue/recognise divorce and we are wrong, while you are right for having an annulment process that everyone bypasses by getting clear cut divorces. 

Offline Deacon Lance

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Re: On marrying a second wife
« Reply #142 on: July 21, 2016, 11:55:57 PM »
Since we have been served heapings of Vatican sanctimony, I thought we should have some cooked by one of their chefs, courtesy of Fr. Ambrose (Many Years!).


Those are easy examples and ones that would apply to the west and the east. Let's give up some more common ones used today by the Roman tribunals.

My husband spends too much time at the gym. This proves he did not have the necessary understanding to commit to a true marriage at the time of our marriage.

My wife is excessively devoted to her mother.  This shows she lacked the maturity to make the necessary commitment to the husband at the time of marriage.

No.  It should NEVER be that frivolous.  I have never seen one or worked on one case that was that absurd.

Reasons for annulment listed in Judging Invalidity ©2002, By Fr. Lawrence G. Wrenn

Working out a couple of hours a day in the gym.
Being described as arrogant and selfish with an "I don't need anyone else" attitude.
Saving one's salary in a personal account.
Seeming to be obsessed with one's body (personal appearance).
Ignoring one's parents on one occasion when they came for a visit.
Seeing the world as his apple. (Psychiatric expert's term)
Never being satisfied with a gift given by one's spouse.
Feeling chronically disenfranchised in one's (spousal) relationship.
Not achieving the desired companionship and intimacy one wants in marriage.
Suffering abandonment issues over a father who died. Protecting herself by putting a hard shell around herself.
Suffering from low self-esteem, self-absorption, and a need for attention.
Lacking emphathy and fearing intimacy.
Comparing oneself to others and always finding them happier. About a month before the wedding he drove his mother to a family reunion, leaving her all alone to make preparations for the wedding.
The psychiatric expert described the respondent as porcupinish. He didn't want people near him; surprises he liked even less. It was noted in the proceedings, however, that he was in love with another woman.
The petitioner's mother always resented her. The mother was unreasonably strict and hypercritical.
That book, btw, is THE textbook for canon lawyers.
Not in my Archeparchy or Seminary.
My cromulent posts embiggen this forum.

Offline biro

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Re: On marrying a second wife
« Reply #143 on: Yesterday at 01:22:33 AM »
Since we have been served heapings of Vatican sanctimony, I thought we should have some cooked by one of their chefs, courtesy of Fr. Ambrose (Many Years!).

Reasons for annulment listed in Judging Invalidity ©2002, By Fr. Lawrence G. Wrenn

Working out a couple of hours a day in the gym.
Being described as arrogant and selfish with an "I don't need anyone else" attitude.
Saving one's salary in a personal account.
Seeming to be obsessed with one's body (personal appearance).
Ignoring one's parents on one occasion when they came for a visit.
Seeing the world as his apple. (Psychiatric expert's term)
Never being satisfied with a gift given by one's spouse.
Feeling chronically disenfranchised in one's (spousal) relationship.
Not achieving the desired companionship and intimacy one wants in marriage.
Suffering abandonment issues over a father who died. Protecting herself by putting a hard shell around herself.
Suffering from low self-esteem, self-absorption, and a need for attention.
Lacking emphathy and fearing intimacy.
Comparing oneself to others and always finding them happier. About a month before the wedding he drove his mother to a family reunion, leaving her all alone to make preparations for the wedding.
The psychiatric expert described the respondent as porcupinish. He didn't want people near him; surprises he liked even less. It was noted in the proceedings, however, that he was in love with another woman.
The petitioner's mother always resented her. The mother was unreasonably strict and hypercritical.
That book, btw, is THE textbook for canon lawyers.

Well, that explains everything. If there's no grown-up reason to break up, you get an annulment. If crap's got real, you get a divorce.

I don't know what the church in the west has going on. But here it's rare to find an annulment. I haven't known anybody so far who has one. Not even my parents. People in the church here get clear cut divorces.  The church here is more in line with the way annulments were handed out before it went crazy in the west.

Then again the west is full of heretical opinions and the church in the rest of the world is a nuisance at times to them as we remind them of their errors. Without any shame.

I've never met anyone who had an annulment, either.

Yet I'm constantly told by Orthodox here that they can't take a step without falling over bushels of people who have.

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Re: On marrying a second wife
« Reply #144 on: Yesterday at 01:40:22 AM »
And how many bushels of people do you know? 

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Re: On marrying a second wife
« Reply #145 on: Yesterday at 02:26:05 AM »
I don't know what the church in the west has going on. But here it's rare to find an annulment. I haven't known anybody so far who has one. Not even my parents. People in the church here get clear cut divorces.  The church here is more in line with the way annulments were handed out before it went crazy in the west.

Let me get this straight.  We issue/recognise divorce and we are wrong, while you are right for having an annulment process that everyone bypasses by getting clear cut divorces.

You are wrong for remarriage. We don't bypass it. We here recognize the true marriages we have. Many divorced Catholics here live celibate lives and don't remarry. As per the truth of faith.

The west has a whole host of catechetical issues which is why many marriages are invalid that side. I hate to say it but it's quite "watered down" down there.

Divorce in the sense of "separation" as the fathers say is allowed but you cannot remarry again as per scripture and the majority of fathers and councils.
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Re: On marrying a second wife
« Reply #146 on: Yesterday at 09:03:26 PM »
My understanding is that the Orthodox Church does not deny that remarriage is a sin. She just allows it as a matter of economia, which is why the second marriage ceremony is penitential. Is my understanding correct?
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Re: On marrying a second wife
« Reply #147 on: Yesterday at 09:51:32 PM »
No idea who the wife is ... Might have something do with a murder mystery.

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Re: On marrying a second wife
« Reply #148 on: Yesterday at 10:12:07 PM »
My understanding is that the Orthodox Church does not deny that remarriage is a sin. She just allows it as a matter of economia, which is why the second marriage ceremony is penitential. Is my understanding correct?


Yes, I believe that even the divorce is a sin, and the canons were recently (some decades ago) reinforced in a document that requires a year's excommunication. Remarriage is also completely impossible unless the divorce was justified by one of several possible reasons provided in the document (the first and foremost being our Lord's reason of sexual unfaithfulness). (How all of this is actually enforced is a different question.)
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Re: On marrying a second wife
« Reply #149 on: Yesterday at 10:17:06 PM »
I've never met anyone who had an annulment, either.

Yet I'm constantly told by Orthodox here that they can't take a step without falling over bushels of people who have.

Allow me to elucidate.

  • The U.S accounts for 5.9% of the world's Catholics, but makes up 60% of the RCC's annulments
  • Of the 35,009 declarations of nullity granted in the US, 79 percent were granted through the ordinary process, while 21 percent were granted through the documentary process.
  • Of the 7,355 declarations of nullity granted in the US by the documentary process, 74 percent were granted for reasons of defect of form.
  • Of the 27,654 declarations of nullity granted in the US by the ordinary process, 99.6 percent were granted for reasons of defect of consent
  • In the US, 6 percent of ordinary-process cases are renounced by those seeking an annulment, while an additional 6 percent are abated because the parties failed to follow through with the procedural acts necessary for a trial to take place.
  • Of the remaining 88 percent of cases in which sentences are given, 96 percent of sentences are in favor of nullity.
  • In the automatic appeal process, annulment is confirmed in 99 percent of cases
  • Outside of the US in the ordinary process, 89.8 percent of sentences are granted in favor of nullity—a bit lower, but not much, than the 96 percent rate in the US.

Source.

What does the data tell us?

For one- there are plenty of baptized Catholics in the US getting married outside of the RCC- hence the documentary process annulments granted for defect of form. How many continue to get divorced and remarried outside of the church, then?

For another- there are 69.5 million Catholics in the United States. Annulments in the US reached their peak in 1991 with 63,933. In 2007, that number was down to 35,009 (this is also the year that data ^ is based on).

So maybe you don't know any Catholics who've had any annulments. Maybe they do have one and just don't talk to you about it. Maybe most of them live in blissfully happy, valid marriages and annulments aren't necessary for them. Or maybe lots of them are marrying outside the church and just don't care enough to pursue an annulment anyway, when they divorce and remarry.

Nonetheless, if you seek an annulment in the US, you've got a 96% shot of getting one. If you're outside the US, 89.8%. So you'll have to forgive me if I find the posturing on their hardline stance on remarriage more than a little ridiculous.
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Re: On marrying a second wife
« Reply #150 on: Yesterday at 11:44:50 PM »
All apostolic churches have annulments

The possibility to declare a marriage null rather than to dissolve it through a divorce certainly exists, but it is usually not done because our Church knows how to confer the sacraments.

The church in America does not equal the church in the rest of the world. Never mind that the annulment mess in the west is a novelty and a modern phenomenon
Oh?
IF they are indeed the same set of complaints and one gets a divorce blessed by the Church and the other gets an annulment...then for me, it seems more faithful to toe the hard line laid out in the gospels and epistles.
Changing hypocrisy into corban isn't toeing the hard line.  We have that on great authority.  Mark 7:11-13.

The "Borgias" has a lot interesting scenes on this topic.  Lucretia's marriage was just annulled, because her husband refused the aid promised in the bride price, but offiically because of impotance.
Btw, he wasn't-the Pope demanded he prove otherwise by intercourse before the tribunal with three fat, old, ugly and syphallitic whores of the pope's choosing.
Quote
A few episodes back Pope Alexander scolds his present mistress for suggesting that his son (from another mistress) Cesare, the cardinal, marry for an alliance:"He is a cardinal.  He can never marry." Odd, as IIRC the first episode opens with Cesare in a brothel, later carrying on an affair and killing the husband, and in real life he had an affair with his brother Geoffrey's wife.  Such a scandal that he should marry!

Unfortunately, recent news tells us that clerical concubines for the Vatican's "all celibate" priesthood did not go out of fashion with the Borgias.

Charles VIII of France showed up in this episode, which invokes this tidbit:

Quote
In 1476, Louis was required to marry the pious Joan of France (1464–1505), the daughter of his second cousin, Louis XI, the middle-aged "Spider King" of France. After Louis XII's predecessor Charles VIII died childless, Louis' marriage was annulled in order to allow him to marry Charles’ widow, the former Queen-Consort, Anne of Brittany (1477–1514), who was the daughter and heiress of Francis II of Brittany, in a strategy meant to integrate the duchy of Brittany into the French monarchy.

The annulment, described as "one of the seamiest lawsuits of the age", was not simple, however. Louis did not, as might be expected, argue the marriage to be void due to consanguinity (the general allowance for the dissolution of a marriage at that time). Though he could produce witnesses to claim that the two were closely related due to various linking marriages, there was no documentary proof, merely the opinions of courtiers. Likewise, Louis could not argue that he had been below the legal age of consent (fourteen) to marry: no one was certain when he had been born, with Louis claiming to have been twelve at the time, and others ranging in their estimates between eleven and thirteen. As there was no real proof, however, he was forced to make other arguments.

Accordingly, Louis (much to the horror of his Queen) claimed that she was physically malformed, providing a rich variety of detail precisely how, and that he had therefore been unable to consummate the marriage. Joan, unsurprisingly, fought this uncertain charge fiercely, producing witnesses to Louis' boast of having "mounted my wife three or four times during the night." Louis also claimed that his sexual performance had been inhibited by witchcraft; Joan responded by asking how he was able to know what it was like to try to make love to her.

Had the Papacy been a neutral party, Joan would likely have won, for Louis' case was exceedingly weak. Unfortunately for the Queen, Pope Alexander VI (the former Roderic Borja) was committed for political reasons to grant the divorce, and accordingly he ruled against Joan, granting the annulment. Outraged, she reluctantly stepped aside, saying that she would pray for her former husband, and Louis married the equally reluctant former Queen, Anne.

After the death of Anne, Louis then married Mary Tudor (1496–1533), the sister of Henry VIII, the King of England in Abbeville, France, on 9 October 1514, in an attempt to conceive an heir to his throne and perhaps to further establish a future claim for his descendants upon the English throne as well. He was ultimately unsuccessful.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Louis_XII_of_France#Marriages

It is not too fine a line between lip service and mockery.

I should amend this to say that I do not begrudge Orthodoxy her tradition.  I simply see no reason for the Catholic Church to follow suit.
Orthodoxy is the Tradition of the Catholic Church.

And I'm still at a loss: what purpose to you see in calling a divorce an annullment, in particular given the destruction to the institution (not to meantion the Faith and credibility of the Church) by doing so?

Divorce has made a mockery of marriage today, but "annulment" has made it an absolute farce.

So please spare us this nonsense.

You speak with so much hatred. It's why I never even try to engage with you.
any yet here you are.

I just speak the facts. That you hate them is your problem, not mine.

Before we can ever discuss anything...

Say the name of my communion.
The Vatican is your ecclesiastical communion.
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Offline ialmisry

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Re: On marrying a second wife
« Reply #151 on: Today at 12:07:10 AM »
Since we have been served heapings of Vatican sanctimony, I thought we should have some cooked by one of their chefs, courtesy of Fr. Ambrose (Many Years!).


Those are easy examples and ones that would apply to the west and the east. Let's give up some more common ones used today by the Roman tribunals.

My husband spends too much time at the gym. This proves he did not have the necessary understanding to commit to a true marriage at the time of our marriage.

My wife is excessively devoted to her mother.  This shows she lacked the maturity to make the necessary commitment to the husband at the time of marriage.

No.  It should NEVER be that frivolous.  I have never seen one or worked on one case that was that absurd.

Reasons for annulment listed in Judging Invalidity ©2002, By Fr. Lawrence G. Wrenn

Working out a couple of hours a day in the gym.
Being described as arrogant and selfish with an "I don't need anyone else" attitude.
Saving one's salary in a personal account.
Seeming to be obsessed with one's body (personal appearance).
Ignoring one's parents on one occasion when they came for a visit.
Seeing the world as his apple. (Psychiatric expert's term)
Never being satisfied with a gift given by one's spouse.
Feeling chronically disenfranchised in one's (spousal) relationship.
Not achieving the desired companionship and intimacy one wants in marriage.
Suffering abandonment issues over a father who died. Protecting herself by putting a hard shell around herself.
Suffering from low self-esteem, self-absorption, and a need for attention.
Lacking emphathy and fearing intimacy.
Comparing oneself to others and always finding them happier. About a month before the wedding he drove his mother to a family reunion, leaving her all alone to make preparations for the wedding.
The psychiatric expert described the respondent as porcupinish. He didn't want people near him; surprises he liked even less. It was noted in the proceedings, however, that he was in love with another woman.
The petitioner's mother always resented her. The mother was unreasonably strict and hypercritical.
That book, btw, is THE textbook for canon lawyers.
Not in my Archeparchy or Seminary.
well, we know, Deacon, how uppermost the Vatican and its Colonial Office, er, "Congregation for the Oriental Churches" hold what it now claims as sui juris rites, er, churches...

It's put out by the same folks who put out the Code of Canon Law, Codex Canonum Ecclesiarum Orientalium, etc.....The Canon Law Society of America.

So, what does Pittsburgh have?

Don't we have a thread here somewhere on the question of annulments based on the idea that the partners marry themselves, and the problem of the priest marrying them, and if that understanding survives submission to the Vatican?
« Last Edit: Today at 12:36:10 AM by ialmisry »
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Offline ialmisry

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Re: On marrying a second wife
« Reply #152 on: Today at 12:12:16 AM »
I've never met anyone who had an annulment, either.

Yet I'm constantly told by Orthodox here that they can't take a step without falling over bushels of people who have.

Allow me to elucidate.

  • The U.S accounts for 5.9% of the world's Catholics, but makes up 60% of the RCC's annulments
We would have to know how much of the Vatican's marriages it makes up:people would be surprised that many in Mexico, Italy, (Africa?) do not bother with a church wedding (the expense of the fuss is much more than a civil wedding). No church wedding, no reason for an annulment to tell you that you don't have one once the state pulls asunder what it joined.[/list]
Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth

Offline ialmisry

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Re: On marrying a second wife
« Reply #153 on: Today at 12:12:59 AM »
Since we have been served heapings of Vatican sanctimony, I thought we should have some cooked by one of their chefs, courtesy of Fr. Ambrose (Many Years!).

Reasons for annulment listed in Judging Invalidity ©2002, By Fr. Lawrence G. Wrenn

Working out a couple of hours a day in the gym.
Being described as arrogant and selfish with an "I don't need anyone else" attitude.
Saving one's salary in a personal account.
Seeming to be obsessed with one's body (personal appearance).
Ignoring one's parents on one occasion when they came for a visit.
Seeing the world as his apple. (Psychiatric expert's term)
Never being satisfied with a gift given by one's spouse.
Feeling chronically disenfranchised in one's (spousal) relationship.
Not achieving the desired companionship and intimacy one wants in marriage.
Suffering abandonment issues over a father who died. Protecting herself by putting a hard shell around herself.
Suffering from low self-esteem, self-absorption, and a need for attention.
Lacking emphathy and fearing intimacy.
Comparing oneself to others and always finding them happier. About a month before the wedding he drove his mother to a family reunion, leaving her all alone to make preparations for the wedding.
The psychiatric expert described the respondent as porcupinish. He didn't want people near him; surprises he liked even less. It was noted in the proceedings, however, that he was in love with another woman.
The petitioner's mother always resented her. The mother was unreasonably strict and hypercritical.
That book, btw, is THE textbook for canon lawyers.

Well, that explains everything. If there's no grown-up reason to break up, you get an annulment. If crap's got real, you get a divorce.

I don't know what the church in the west has going on. But here it's rare to find an annulment. I haven't known anybody so far who has one. Not even my parents. People in the church here get clear cut divorces.  The church here is more in line with the way annulments were handed out before it went crazy in the west.

Then again the west is full of heretical opinions and the church in the rest of the world is a nuisance at times to them as we remind them of their errors. Without any shame.

I've never met anyone who had an annulment, either.

Yet I'm constantly told by Orthodox here that they can't take a step without falling over bushels of people who have.
you know anyone divorced?
Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth

Offline Wandile

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Re: On marrying a second wife
« Reply #154 on: Today at 02:33:08 AM »
All apostolic churches have annulments

The possibility to declare a marriage null rather than to dissolve it through a divorce certainly exists, but it is usually not done because our Church knows how to confer the sacraments.

The church in America does not equal the church in the rest of the world. Never mind that the annulment mess in the west is a novelty and a modern phenomenon
Oh?
IF they are indeed the same set of complaints and one gets a divorce blessed by the Church and the other gets an annulment...then for me, it seems more faithful to toe the hard line laid out in the gospels and epistles.
Changing hypocrisy into corban isn't toeing the hard line.  We have that on great authority.  Mark 7:11-13.

The "Borgias" has a lot interesting scenes on this topic.  Lucretia's marriage was just annulled, because her husband refused the aid promised in the bride price, but offiically because of impotance.
Btw, he wasn't-the Pope demanded he prove otherwise by intercourse before the tribunal with three fat, old, ugly and syphallitic whores of the pope's choosing.
Quote
A few episodes back Pope Alexander scolds his present mistress for suggesting that his son (from another mistress) Cesare, the cardinal, marry for an alliance:"He is a cardinal.  He can never marry." Odd, as IIRC the first episode opens with Cesare in a brothel, later carrying on an affair and killing the husband, and in real life he had an affair with his brother Geoffrey's wife.  Such a scandal that he should marry!

Unfortunately, recent news tells us that clerical concubines for the Vatican's "all celibate" priesthood did not go out of fashion with the Borgias.

Charles VIII of France showed up in this episode, which invokes this tidbit:

Quote
In 1476, Louis was required to marry the pious Joan of France (1464–1505), the daughter of his second cousin, Louis XI, the middle-aged "Spider King" of France. After Louis XII's predecessor Charles VIII died childless, Louis' marriage was annulled in order to allow him to marry Charles’ widow, the former Queen-Consort, Anne of Brittany (1477–1514), who was the daughter and heiress of Francis II of Brittany, in a strategy meant to integrate the duchy of Brittany into the French monarchy.

The annulment, described as "one of the seamiest lawsuits of the age", was not simple, however. Louis did not, as might be expected, argue the marriage to be void due to consanguinity (the general allowance for the dissolution of a marriage at that time). Though he could produce witnesses to claim that the two were closely related due to various linking marriages, there was no documentary proof, merely the opinions of courtiers. Likewise, Louis could not argue that he had been below the legal age of consent (fourteen) to marry: no one was certain when he had been born, with Louis claiming to have been twelve at the time, and others ranging in their estimates between eleven and thirteen. As there was no real proof, however, he was forced to make other arguments.

Accordingly, Louis (much to the horror of his Queen) claimed that she was physically malformed, providing a rich variety of detail precisely how, and that he had therefore been unable to consummate the marriage. Joan, unsurprisingly, fought this uncertain charge fiercely, producing witnesses to Louis' boast of having "mounted my wife three or four times during the night." Louis also claimed that his sexual performance had been inhibited by witchcraft; Joan responded by asking how he was able to know what it was like to try to make love to her.

Had the Papacy been a neutral party, Joan would likely have won, for Louis' case was exceedingly weak. Unfortunately for the Queen, Pope Alexander VI (the former Roderic Borja) was committed for political reasons to grant the divorce, and accordingly he ruled against Joan, granting the annulment. Outraged, she reluctantly stepped aside, saying that she would pray for her former husband, and Louis married the equally reluctant former Queen, Anne.

After the death of Anne, Louis then married Mary Tudor (1496–1533), the sister of Henry VIII, the King of England in Abbeville, France, on 9 October 1514, in an attempt to conceive an heir to his throne and perhaps to further establish a future claim for his descendants upon the English throne as well. He was ultimately unsuccessful.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Louis_XII_of_France#Marriages

It is not too fine a line between lip service and mockery.

I should amend this to say that I do not begrudge Orthodoxy her tradition.  I simply see no reason for the Catholic Church to follow suit.
Orthodoxy is the Tradition of the Catholic Church.

And I'm still at a loss: what purpose to you see in calling a divorce an annullment, in particular given the destruction to the institution (not to meantion the Faith and credibility of the Church) by doing so?

Divorce has made a mockery of marriage today, but "annulment" has made it an absolute farce.

So please spare us this nonsense.

You speak with so much hatred. It's why I never even try to engage with you.
any yet here you are.

I just speak the facts. That you hate them is your problem, not mine.

Before we can ever discuss anything...

Say the name of my communion.
The Vatican is your ecclesiastical communion.


Wrong that's the name of a city state.

Try again what is the name of the religious institution that runs the Vatican City?
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Offline Wandile

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Re: On marrying a second wife
« Reply #155 on: Today at 02:34:02 AM »
Since we have been served heapings of Vatican sanctimony, I thought we should have some cooked by one of their chefs, courtesy of Fr. Ambrose (Many Years!).

Reasons for annulment listed in Judging Invalidity ©2002, By Fr. Lawrence G. Wrenn

Working out a couple of hours a day in the gym.
Being described as arrogant and selfish with an "I don't need anyone else" attitude.
Saving one's salary in a personal account.
Seeming to be obsessed with one's body (personal appearance).
Ignoring one's parents on one occasion when they came for a visit.
Seeing the world as his apple. (Psychiatric expert's term)
Never being satisfied with a gift given by one's spouse.
Feeling chronically disenfranchised in one's (spousal) relationship.
Not achieving the desired companionship and intimacy one wants in marriage.
Suffering abandonment issues over a father who died. Protecting herself by putting a hard shell around herself.
Suffering from low self-esteem, self-absorption, and a need for attention.
Lacking emphathy and fearing intimacy.
Comparing oneself to others and always finding them happier. About a month before the wedding he drove his mother to a family reunion, leaving her all alone to make preparations for the wedding.
The psychiatric expert described the respondent as porcupinish. He didn't want people near him; surprises he liked even less. It was noted in the proceedings, however, that he was in love with another woman.
The petitioner's mother always resented her. The mother was unreasonably strict and hypercritical.
That book, btw, is THE textbook for canon lawyers.

Well, that explains everything. If there's no grown-up reason to break up, you get an annulment. If crap's got real, you get a divorce.


I don't know what the church in the west has going on. But here it's rare to find an annulment. I haven't known anybody so far who has one. Not even my parents. People in the church here get clear cut divorces.  The church here is more in line with the way annulments were handed out before it went crazy in the west.

Then again the west is full of heretical opinions and the church in the rest of the world is a nuisance at times to them as we remind them of their errors. Without any shame.

I've never met anyone who had an annulment, either.

Yet I'm constantly told by Orthodox here that they can't take a step without falling over bushels of people who have.
you know anyone divorced?

Yeah many sadly. Such is life in this century.
« Last Edit: Today at 02:34:52 AM by Wandile »
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Re: On marrying a second wife
« Reply #156 on: Today at 03:32:54 AM »
I honestly don't think pointing out the annulment process and its problems within the Catholic Church are going to get to the heart of the issue. Sure, it's something to look at and give cause for a deeper look. But that's about it.
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Re: On marrying a second wife
« Reply #157 on: Today at 09:06:27 AM »
I honestly don't think pointing out the annulment process and its problems within the Catholic Church are going to get to the heart of the issue. Sure, it's something to look at and give cause for a deeper look. But that's about it.

If more RCs felt that way, many of these discussions would not seem so pointless. 

Offline ialmisry

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Re: On marrying a second wife
« Reply #158 on: Today at 10:32:15 AM »
All apostolic churches have annulments

The possibility to declare a marriage null rather than to dissolve it through a divorce certainly exists, but it is usually not done because our Church knows how to confer the sacraments.

The church in America does not equal the church in the rest of the world. Never mind that the annulment mess in the west is a novelty and a modern phenomenon
Oh?
IF they are indeed the same set of complaints and one gets a divorce blessed by the Church and the other gets an annulment...then for me, it seems more faithful to toe the hard line laid out in the gospels and epistles.
Changing hypocrisy into corban isn't toeing the hard line.  We have that on great authority.  Mark 7:11-13.

The "Borgias" has a lot interesting scenes on this topic.  Lucretia's marriage was just annulled, because her husband refused the aid promised in the bride price, but offiically because of impotance.
Btw, he wasn't-the Pope demanded he prove otherwise by intercourse before the tribunal with three fat, old, ugly and syphallitic whores of the pope's choosing.
Quote
A few episodes back Pope Alexander scolds his present mistress for suggesting that his son (from another mistress) Cesare, the cardinal, marry for an alliance:"He is a cardinal.  He can never marry." Odd, as IIRC the first episode opens with Cesare in a brothel, later carrying on an affair and killing the husband, and in real life he had an affair with his brother Geoffrey's wife.  Such a scandal that he should marry!

Unfortunately, recent news tells us that clerical concubines for the Vatican's "all celibate" priesthood did not go out of fashion with the Borgias.

Charles VIII of France showed up in this episode, which invokes this tidbit:

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In 1476, Louis was required to marry the pious Joan of France (1464–1505), the daughter of his second cousin, Louis XI, the middle-aged "Spider King" of France. After Louis XII's predecessor Charles VIII died childless, Louis' marriage was annulled in order to allow him to marry Charles’ widow, the former Queen-Consort, Anne of Brittany (1477–1514), who was the daughter and heiress of Francis II of Brittany, in a strategy meant to integrate the duchy of Brittany into the French monarchy.

The annulment, described as "one of the seamiest lawsuits of the age", was not simple, however. Louis did not, as might be expected, argue the marriage to be void due to consanguinity (the general allowance for the dissolution of a marriage at that time). Though he could produce witnesses to claim that the two were closely related due to various linking marriages, there was no documentary proof, merely the opinions of courtiers. Likewise, Louis could not argue that he had been below the legal age of consent (fourteen) to marry: no one was certain when he had been born, with Louis claiming to have been twelve at the time, and others ranging in their estimates between eleven and thirteen. As there was no real proof, however, he was forced to make other arguments.

Accordingly, Louis (much to the horror of his Queen) claimed that she was physically malformed, providing a rich variety of detail precisely how, and that he had therefore been unable to consummate the marriage. Joan, unsurprisingly, fought this uncertain charge fiercely, producing witnesses to Louis' boast of having "mounted my wife three or four times during the night." Louis also claimed that his sexual performance had been inhibited by witchcraft; Joan responded by asking how he was able to know what it was like to try to make love to her.

Had the Papacy been a neutral party, Joan would likely have won, for Louis' case was exceedingly weak. Unfortunately for the Queen, Pope Alexander VI (the former Roderic Borja) was committed for political reasons to grant the divorce, and accordingly he ruled against Joan, granting the annulment. Outraged, she reluctantly stepped aside, saying that she would pray for her former husband, and Louis married the equally reluctant former Queen, Anne.

After the death of Anne, Louis then married Mary Tudor (1496–1533), the sister of Henry VIII, the King of England in Abbeville, France, on 9 October 1514, in an attempt to conceive an heir to his throne and perhaps to further establish a future claim for his descendants upon the English throne as well. He was ultimately unsuccessful.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Louis_XII_of_France#Marriages

It is not too fine a line between lip service and mockery.

I should amend this to say that I do not begrudge Orthodoxy her tradition.  I simply see no reason for the Catholic Church to follow suit.
Orthodoxy is the Tradition of the Catholic Church.

And I'm still at a loss: what purpose to you see in calling a divorce an annullment, in particular given the destruction to the institution (not to meantion the Faith and credibility of the Church) by doing so?

Divorce has made a mockery of marriage today, but "annulment" has made it an absolute farce.

So please spare us this nonsense.

You speak with so much hatred. It's why I never even try to engage with you.
any yet here you are.

I just speak the facts. That you hate them is your problem, not mine.

Before we can ever discuss anything...

Say the name of my communion.
The Vatican is your ecclesiastical communion.


Wrong that's the name of a city state.

Try again what is the name of the religious institution that runs the Vatican City?
The Vatican. Just see its official website
http://w2.vatican.va/content/vatican/en.html
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A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth

Offline ialmisry

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Re: On marrying a second wife
« Reply #159 on: Today at 10:33:47 AM »
you know anyone divorced?

Yeah many sadly. Such is life in this century.
I was asking biro for a reason, but since you answered, you know anyone remarried?
Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth

Offline ialmisry

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Re: On marrying a second wife
« Reply #160 on: Today at 10:35:05 AM »
I honestly don't think pointing out the annulment process and its problems within the Catholic Church are going to get to the heart of the issue. Sure, it's something to look at and give cause for a deeper look. But that's about it.

If more RCs felt that way, many of these discussions would not seem so pointless.
It's not the filioque and Pastor Aeternus...it's divorce and contraception....
Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth