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Author Topic: The Council of Ephesus and its implications for Papal infallibility  (Read 1712 times) Average Rating: 0
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« Reply #135 on: Yesterday at 12:31:26 PM »

...he still held to the principle that Rome was the source of the priesthood.

What does that mean, EY?  "Source of the priesthood (and/or episcopate)"? 
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« Reply #136 on: Yesterday at 12:35:00 PM »

Have you ever heard about reading into? You are reading into St. Cyprien's words something he did not believe... I think numerous times, we told you, that Cyprien did believe every bishop sits in chair of Peter, and despite he recognised primacy of Roman Church, he was adamant in refusing to recognise right of Supermacy of Roman see. You are six hundred times repeating something you know we disagree with... if you are trying to convince us in Roman Supermacy, sorry last 1000 years we did not hear any convincible argument.

Well, Cyprian is not infallible. And so we are here observing a principle that he himself belief. Regardless if he did not see that principle as making it a binding law upon him to submit to Rome in all things (as if evident), he still held to the principle that Rome was the source of the priesthood. Now why is it so wild that such a principle was just not fully lived out by Cyprian? After all, was he above correction? Absolutely not. In fact many believed he was wrong about the baptism of heretics. And so all I am saying is that here the Orthodox believe that each bishop is equal, whereas Rome has something distinct about it, namely, that it is the source of the episcopate. Now, some fathers saw in this a notion of infallibility, and others did not.

All these quotes were written in times when Rome was the only Orthodox see among heresies or at least the only one willing to speak out against them. Rome was the source because it was confessing orthodoxy, it's not orthodoxy simply because it is being confessed by Rome.

My opinion is that although Rome itself saw the fall of the Empire in the West as a disaster, it kept the city out of petty imperial politics which were the true sources of all heresies, so they could look at it as outsiders.

Two seconds after an empire was formed in the West with Charlesmagne, the emperor tried to impose a heresy, just like in the East. The only difference is that, although Rome resisted it in the beginning, eventually the popes embarked on it wholeheartdly and, also unlike the East, never retracted on it.



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« Reply #137 on: Yesterday at 01:04:03 PM »

My opinion is that although Rome itself saw the fall of the Empire in the West as a disaster, it kept the city out of petty imperial politics which were the true sources of all heresies, so they could look at it as outsiders.

Two seconds after an empire was formed in the West with Charlesmagne, the emperor tried to impose a heresy, just like in the East. The only difference is that, although Rome resisted it in the beginning, eventually the popes embarked on it wholeheartdly and, also unlike the East, never retracted on it.

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« Reply #138 on: Yesterday at 01:49:27 PM »

Not sure I want to get my finger prints on this thread, but let me give you my two cents, or maybe about 10% thereof.

But as a historian, how could you account for what Philip is saying? It is just a nice gesture?

I don't have anything against those questions, but first I'd like to understand what you said already, in the OP. Do you see infallibility (either of popes in general or of St. Peter specifically) being discussed in the Phillip quote? If so, where?

Bump.

Infallibility can be seen from the Philip quote if one exegetes the statement in the following manner.

1) Philip claims that Peter, the man, was the firm foundation and pillar of the whole Catholic Church
2) Pillars and foundations are the very thing which gives the whole structure its strength, stability, and its ability to stand
3) Pillars and foundations can never be separated from the whole structure, without the whole structure falling apart
4) The whole Church is the missionary society of Christ to proclaim the gospel to all nations, and therefore it must be infallible
5) Therefore the pillar and foundation of the Church must have this infallible quality
6) Philip claims that Peter continues to be "active" in the Church through his successors, both now and "forever".
7) The bishops of Rome are the infallible heads of the whole Church Catholic
Maybe what I'm about to say has been said by others already. Please accept my apologies if I repeat anything.

Nowhere in the above progression do you establish that the bishops of Rome are unique successors of St. Peter in ways that no other bishops are. Until you can do so, Point 7 above is a big non sequitur--it just doesn't follow from the logic of the preceding points.
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« Reply #139 on: Yesterday at 02:44:29 PM »

Not sure I want to get my finger prints on this thread, but let me give you my two cents, or maybe about 10% thereof.

But as a historian, how could you account for what Philip is saying? It is just a nice gesture?

I don't have anything against those questions, but first I'd like to understand what you said already, in the OP. Do you see infallibility (either of popes in general or of St. Peter specifically) being discussed in the Phillip quote? If so, where?

Bump.

Infallibility can be seen from the Philip quote if one exegetes the statement in the following manner.

1) Philip claims that Peter, the man, was the firm foundation and pillar of the whole Catholic Church
2) Pillars and foundations are the very thing which gives the whole structure its strength, stability, and its ability to stand
3) Pillars and foundations can never be separated from the whole structure, without the whole structure falling apart
4) The whole Church is the missionary society of Christ to proclaim the gospel to all nations, and therefore it must be infallible
5) Therefore the pillar and foundation of the Church must have this infallible quality
6) Philip claims that Peter continues to be "active" in the Church through his successors, both now and "forever".
7) The bishops of Rome are the infallible heads of the whole Church Catholic
Cool Because priests acting as legates speak infalllibly.

The Holy Spirit through St. Paul said that St. James the Brother of God and St. John the Theologian were Pillars of the Church too, in fact refering to St. James, who precided over the Council of Apostles at Jerusalem and rendered its judgement and definition of the Faith, before St. Peter. Galatians 2:9

btw, you false syllogism is an example of the dangers that Scholasticism leads to, whole large edifices erected further and further off of the firm foundation.
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« Reply #140 on: Yesterday at 02:54:23 PM »

Have you ever heard about reading into? You are reading into St. Cyprien's words something he did not believe... I think numerous times, we told you, that Cyprien did believe every bishop sits in chair of Peter, and despite he recognised primacy of Roman Church, he was adamant in refusing to recognise right of Supermacy of Roman see. You are six hundred times repeating something you know we disagree with... if you are trying to convince us in Roman Supermacy, sorry last 1000 years we did not hear any convincible argument.

Well, Cyprian is not infallible. And so we are here observing a principle that he himself belief. Regardless if he did not see that principle as making it a binding law upon him to submit to Rome in all things (as if evident), he still held to the principle that Rome was the source of the priesthood. Now why is it so wild that such a principle was just not fully lived out by Cyprian? After all, was he above correction? Absolutely not. In fact many believed he was wrong about the baptism of heretics. And so all I am saying is that here the Orthodox believe that each bishop is equal, whereas Rome has something distinct about it, namely, that it is the source of the episcopate. Now, some fathers saw in this a notion of infallibility, and others did not.
Which means it is a failure by Laurentian standards of Orthodoxy, lacking "everyone" "everywhere" and "at all times."
Philip the Presbyter is not infallible either.  At least Cyprian shared in the plentitude of the episcopate.

You have yet to demonstrate that "he still held to the principle that Rome was the source of the priesthood."  The letter that he translated and published from Met. Firmillian says otherwise.
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« Reply #141 on: Yesterday at 05:19:36 PM »

Quote
Well, Cyprian is not infallible
I find it funny that RC's love quoting the saints to try and prove the Pope's claims, but when others do the same to disprove them, we hear, "Well, <insert here> isn't infallible." So very convenient.

PP


That's a straw man. I never said Cyprian believed in the Papacy.
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« Reply #142 on: Yesterday at 05:21:04 PM »

Have you ever heard about reading into? You are reading into St. Cyprien's words something he did not believe... I think numerous times, we told you, that Cyprien did believe every bishop sits in chair of Peter, and despite he recognised primacy of Roman Church, he was adamant in refusing to recognise right of Supermacy of Roman see. You are six hundred times repeating something you know we disagree with... if you are trying to convince us in Roman Supermacy, sorry last 1000 years we did not hear any convincible argument.

Well, Cyprian is not infallible. And so we are here observing a principle that he himself belief. Regardless if he did not see that principle as making it a binding law upon him to submit to Rome in all things (as if evident), he still held to the principle that Rome was the source of the priesthood. Now why is it so wild that such a principle was just not fully lived out by Cyprian? After all, was he above correction? Absolutely not. In fact many believed he was wrong about the baptism of heretics. And so all I am saying is that here the Orthodox believe that each bishop is equal, whereas Rome has something distinct about it, namely, that it is the source of the episcopate. Now, some fathers saw in this a notion of infallibility, and others did not.
So the quotes that seem to be favorable to Papal infallibility are trustworthy, but the ones that clarify his position and demonstrate that he is not advocating Papal infallibility are not to be trusted?  Don't you realize how silly that sounds?  Huh


I never said Cyprian believed in Papal Infallibility.....straw man.

Secondly, I am just showing that there was more than one Father who saw in Rome the source of the priesthood. What does it mean? I am not sure. Could you assist in explaining?
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« Reply #143 on: Yesterday at 06:47:43 PM »

Seems pretty clear to me. They understood a Peter principle in all bishops, but a source in Rome.


-St. Ambrose of Milan
16- "[Christ] made answer: ‘You are Peter, and upon this rock will I build my Church. . . .’ Could he not, then, strengthen the faith of the man to whom, acting on his own authority, he gave the kingdom, whom he called the rock, thereby declaring him to be the foundation of the Church [Matt. 16:18]?" (The Faith 4:5 [A.D. 379]).
-St. Ambrose of Milan
17- "It is to Peter that he says: ‘You are Peter, and upon this rock I will build my Church’ [Matt. 16:18]. Where Peter is, there is the Church. And where the Church is, no death is there, but life eternal" (Commentary on Twelve Psalms of David 40:30 [A.D. 389]).
-St. Ambrose of Milan
18 - From this Church [of Rome] the rights of venerable communion flow unto all. (St. Ambrose of Milan, AD 385)
-St. Ambrose of Milan
19- "We recognize in the letter of your holiness [Pope Siricius] the vigilance of the good shepherd. You faithfully watch over the gate entrusted to you, and with pious care you guard Christ’s sheepfold [John 10:7ff], you that are worthy to have the Lord’s sheep hear and follow you" (Synodal Letter to Pope Siricius [A.D. 389]).
- Synod of Ambrose
20- "At length, after being tempted by the devil, Peter is set over the Church."
Ambrose, Commentary on the Psalms,43:40(AD 397),in GILES,145
- St. Ambrose of Milan
21 - "But he was not so eager as to lay aside caution. He called the bishop to him, and esteeming that there can be no true thankfulness except it spring from true faith, he enquired whether he agreed with the Catholic bishops, that is, with the Roman Church?"
Ambrose, The death of his brother Satyrus,1:47(A.D. 378),in NPNF2,X:168
- St. Ambrose of Milan
22 - "Your grace must be besought not to permit any disturbance of the Roman Church, the head of the whole Roman World and of the most holy faith of the Apostles, for from thence flow out to all (churches) the bonds of sacred communion."
Ambrose,To Emperor Gratian,Epistle 11:4(A.D. 381),in SPP,160
- Ambrose of Milan


-St. Cyprian of Carthage
111 - "With a false bishop appointed for themselves by heretics, they dare even to set sail and carry letters from schismatics and blasphemers to the chair of Peter and to the principal church [at Rome], in which sacerdotal unity has its source" (Letters 59:14 [A.D. 253]).
-St. Cyprian of Carthage

112 - "There is one God and one Christ, and one Church, and one chair founded on Peter by the word of the Lord. It is not possible to set up another altar or for there to be another priesthood besides that one altar and that one priesthood. Whoever has gathered elsewhere is scattering" (Letters 43[40]:5 [A.D. 253]).

Alright, so what do we see? I don't see anything. The vast majority of those quotes don't mention at all Rome in it's original text, it's added into the brackets, and the context is whisked away so we don't have any background to analyze these quotes critically. Those that do mention Rome don't say that it's infallible.
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« Reply #144 on: Yesterday at 06:49:01 PM »

Have you ever heard about reading into? You are reading into St. Cyprien's words something he did not believe... I think numerous times, we told you, that Cyprien did believe every bishop sits in chair of Peter, and despite he recognised primacy of Roman Church, he was adamant in refusing to recognise right of Supermacy of Roman see. You are six hundred times repeating something you know we disagree with... if you are trying to convince us in Roman Supermacy, sorry last 1000 years we did not hear any convincible argument.

Well, Cyprian is not infallible. And so we are here observing a principle that he himself belief. Regardless if he did not see that principle as making it a binding law upon him to submit to Rome in all things (as if evident), he still held to the principle that Rome was the source of the priesthood. Now why is it so wild that such a principle was just not fully lived out by Cyprian? After all, was he above correction? Absolutely not. In fact many believed he was wrong about the baptism of heretics. And so all I am saying is that here the Orthodox believe that each bishop is equal, whereas Rome has something distinct about it, namely, that it is the source of the episcopate. Now, some fathers saw in this a notion of infallibility, and others did not.
So the quotes that seem to be favorable to Papal infallibility are trustworthy, but the ones that clarify his position and demonstrate that he is not advocating Papal infallibility are not to be trusted?  Don't you realize how silly that sounds?  Huh


I never said Cyprian believed in Papal Infallibility.....straw man.

Secondly, I am just showing that there was more than one Father who saw in Rome the source of the priesthood. What does it mean? I am not sure. Could you assist in explaining?

If Cyprian didn't believe in Infallibility, will you concede it is a novel doctrine that the Apostles knew nothing about as well? Secondly, that quote has been explained a lot of times. The text is referring to the Episcopate, the office the Roman Bishop occupies, not his Papacy. Every local Episcopate is where sacerdotal unity is derived. This is what the Cyprian text says a few lines down, in it's original, with the context.
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« Reply #145 on: Yesterday at 08:12:16 PM »

Have you ever heard about reading into? You are reading into St. Cyprien's words something he did not believe... I think numerous times, we told you, that Cyprien did believe every bishop sits in chair of Peter, and despite he recognised primacy of Roman Church, he was adamant in refusing to recognise right of Supermacy of Roman see. You are six hundred times repeating something you know we disagree with... if you are trying to convince us in Roman Supermacy, sorry last 1000 years we did not hear any convincible argument.

Well, Cyprian is not infallible. And so we are here observing a principle that he himself belief. Regardless if he did not see that principle as making it a binding law upon him to submit to Rome in all things (as if evident), he still held to the principle that Rome was the source of the priesthood. Now why is it so wild that such a principle was just not fully lived out by Cyprian? After all, was he above correction? Absolutely not. In fact many believed he was wrong about the baptism of heretics. And so all I am saying is that here the Orthodox believe that each bishop is equal, whereas Rome has something distinct about it, namely, that it is the source of the episcopate. Now, some fathers saw in this a notion of infallibility, and others did not.
So the quotes that seem to be favorable to Papal infallibility are trustworthy, but the ones that clarify his position and demonstrate that he is not advocating Papal infallibility are not to be trusted?  Don't you realize how silly that sounds?  Huh


I never said Cyprian believed in Papal Infallibility.....straw man.

Secondly, I am just showing that there was more than one Father who saw in Rome the source of the priesthood. What does it mean? I am not sure. Could you assist in explaining?

If Cyprian didn't believe in Infallibility, will you concede it is a novel doctrine that the Apostles knew nothing about as well? Secondly, that quote has been explained a lot of times. The text is referring to the Episcopate, the office the Roman Bishop occupies, not his Papacy. Every local Episcopate is where sacerdotal unity is derived. This is what the Cyprian text says a few lines down, in it's original, with the context.

Cyprian is referring to Rome

here is the whole letter

http://www.ccel.org/ccel/schaff/anf05.iv.iv.liv.html
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« Reply #146 on: Yesterday at 09:14:17 PM »

Have you ever heard about reading into? You are reading into St. Cyprien's words something he did not believe... I think numerous times, we told you, that Cyprien did believe every bishop sits in chair of Peter, and despite he recognised primacy of Roman Church, he was adamant in refusing to recognise right of Supermacy of Roman see. You are six hundred times repeating something you know we disagree with... if you are trying to convince us in Roman Supermacy, sorry last 1000 years we did not hear any convincible argument.

Well, Cyprian is not infallible. And so we are here observing a principle that he himself belief. Regardless if he did not see that principle as making it a binding law upon him to submit to Rome in all things (as if evident), he still held to the principle that Rome was the source of the priesthood. Now why is it so wild that such a principle was just not fully lived out by Cyprian? After all, was he above correction? Absolutely not. In fact many believed he was wrong about the baptism of heretics. And so all I am saying is that here the Orthodox believe that each bishop is equal, whereas Rome has something distinct about it, namely, that it is the source of the episcopate. Now, some fathers saw in this a notion of infallibility, and others did not.
So the quotes that seem to be favorable to Papal infallibility are trustworthy, but the ones that clarify his position and demonstrate that he is not advocating Papal infallibility are not to be trusted?  Don't you realize how silly that sounds?  Huh


I never said Cyprian believed in Papal Infallibility.....straw man.

Secondly, I am just showing that there was more than one Father who saw in Rome the source of the priesthood. What does it mean? I am not sure. Could you assist in explaining?

If Cyprian didn't believe in Infallibility, will you concede it is a novel doctrine that the Apostles knew nothing about as well? Secondly, that quote has been explained a lot of times. The text is referring to the Episcopate, the office the Roman Bishop occupies, not his Papacy. Every local Episcopate is where sacerdotal unity is derived. This is what the Cyprian text says a few lines down, in it's original, with the context.

Cyprian is referring to Rome

here is the whole letter

http://www.ccel.org/ccel/schaff/anf05.iv.iv.liv.html

I don't know why I even bother.

Hit Ctrl + F and search "Episcop" and "Rome" and see how many results you get. Obviously, Cyprian was referring to Rome. That doesn't mean that he was referring to Rome as the source of sacerdotal unity though, those are separate issues. With relation to the latter, he's talking about the Episcopacy, the context is clear. It seems like it's impossible to disassociate Rome from anything in your worldview.

Edit: Scratch that, Rome is still not mentioned in the text. It's only inferred.
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« Reply #147 on: Yesterday at 09:36:03 PM »

You can get an idea where EY's coming form whenever you take a gander at the Catholic Encyclopedia (1917). Most articles there pertaining to lives of Fathers and Saints and Doctors will find a way to work in a solemn paragraph or two on the Pope of the day and how the person under consideration gave him his due.
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« Reply #148 on: Today at 12:35:45 AM »

I was reading a book called the Vatican Diaries, it was very well written and interesting, But in the  last Chapter which was mainly about Pope Benedict, there was a quote which Benedict very clearly downplayed the infallibility thing.
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« Reply #149 on: Today at 06:22:19 AM »

I must be untangled with the very argumentation which brought me to see the truth in Roman Catholicism.


Why?


"Arguments" can bring something to your attention, but you aren't going to be "untangled" by sheer force of rhetoric or fancy words.   

The Holy Spirit "untangles" us.

When you attend a Roman Catholic Mass, and immerse yourself in the lives of it's Saints and pray the prayers,  where do you find yourself?
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« Reply #150 on: Today at 09:21:03 AM »

Well, to be truly honest. It seems that I am most spiritually enlivened when I go to a baptist/evangelical church that has the emphasis on conversion, repentance, the coming wrath of God, the need to be Christ-like, the urgency of evangelism, the practice of church disipline,etc,etc,etc. This is where I feel the "most" home at. Perhaps if Catholic/Orthodox churches were like this, I'd feel more at home there.

Yea....so this is why I am examining doctrine/theology/history
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« Reply #151 on: Today at 09:23:23 AM »

Well, to be truly honest. It seems that I am most spiritually enlivened when I go to a baptist/evangelical church that has the emphasis on conversion, repentance, the coming wrath of God, the need to be Christ-like, the urgency of evangelism, the practice of church disipline,etc,etc,etc. This is where I feel the "most" home at. Perhaps if Catholic/Orthodox churches were like this, I'd feel more at home there.

Yea....so this is why I am examining doctrine/theology/history
I am from a baptist/evangelical background and I didn't even know what these things really meant until I came to Orthodoxy. You must be going to a very different baptist/evangelical church than the ones that I attended throughout my life.
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« Reply #152 on: Today at 11:37:57 AM »

Well, to be truly honest. It seems that I am most spiritually enlivened when I go to a baptist/evangelical church that has the emphasis on conversion, repentance, the coming wrath of God, the need to be Christ-like, the urgency of evangelism, the practice of church disipline,etc,etc,etc. This is where I feel the "most" home at. Perhaps if Catholic/Orthodox churches were like this, I'd feel more at home there.

Yea....so this is why I am examining doctrine/theology/history
I am from a baptist/evangelical background and I didn't even know what these things really meant until I came to Orthodoxy. You must be going to a very different baptist/evangelical church than the ones that I attended throughout my life.

That is only recently. If you read historic baptist theology, it has always had a more rigorous take on discipleship, obedience, discipline, and evangelism.

In fact, the history has flip flopped. I find more Orthodox/Catholic being very weak when it comes to proclaiming the gospel to every creature, being violent against the passions of the flesh, holding others accountable to the law of Christ, etc,etc.....and I see the reformed baptists doing this almost in every congregation that holds to historic baptist theology.

I had to do my research about this because so many think, when I say I came from a reformed baptist church, that I came from a "pray the prayer", "walk down the aisle", and "ask jesus into your heart" kind of Christianity.
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TheTrisagion
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« Reply #153 on: Today at 11:48:46 AM »

Well, to be truly honest. It seems that I am most spiritually enlivened when I go to a baptist/evangelical church that has the emphasis on conversion, repentance, the coming wrath of God, the need to be Christ-like, the urgency of evangelism, the practice of church disipline,etc,etc,etc. This is where I feel the "most" home at. Perhaps if Catholic/Orthodox churches were like this, I'd feel more at home there.

Yea....so this is why I am examining doctrine/theology/history
I am from a baptist/evangelical background and I didn't even know what these things really meant until I came to Orthodoxy. You must be going to a very different baptist/evangelical church than the ones that I attended throughout my life.

That is only recently. If you read historic baptist theology, it has always had a more rigorous take on discipleship, obedience, discipline, and evangelism.

In fact, the history has flip flopped. I find more Orthodox/Catholic being very weak when it comes to proclaiming the gospel to every creature, being violent against the passions of the flesh, holding others accountable to the law of Christ, etc,etc.....and I see the reformed baptists doing this almost in every congregation that holds to historic baptist theology.

I had to do my research about this because so many think, when I say I came from a reformed baptist church, that I came from a "pray the prayer", "walk down the aisle", and "ask jesus into your heart" kind of Christianity.
Perhaps this is the part you are holding on to.  The Orthodox I know work hard and proclaiming the gospel and fighting against the passions of the flesh.  They do not, however, spend a great deal of time worrying about holding others accountable, we worry about ourselves and our own sins, not the sins of others.  I have enough to worry about in my own life that I don't need to go around my parish dictating to others what they should be doing in their life.  They are held accountable through the sacrament of confession, they don't need me to be a priest wanna-be telling them what they should be doing.
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