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Catholig
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« on: November 14, 2007, 01:17:59 AM »

Hello everyone,

I'm a Latin Rite Catholic, and a traditional one (or at least liturgically traditional). Since my Church started offering the Tridentine Mass on Sunday I go there. In case though, my question is what are the traditional liturgical languages of the various Orthodox/Eastern Catholic rites? And - are any of these still commonly used?

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« Reply #1 on: November 14, 2007, 01:28:08 AM »

Latin, Koine (Greek), Slavonic (Russian), Arabic, Syrian, Coptic, Romanian, Georgian, Celtic among others are Traditional Orthodox liturgical languages.
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« Reply #2 on: November 14, 2007, 01:34:53 AM »

Latin, Koine (Greek), Slavonic (Russian), Arabic, Syrian, Coptic, Romanian, Georgian, Celtic among others are Traditional Orthodox liturgical languages.

Well that's quite a few. Cheesy Are these traditional languages still used?

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« Reply #3 on: November 14, 2007, 01:38:22 AM »

Well that's quite a few. Cheesy Are these traditional languages still used?

Catholig
I think Slavonic is still used throughout the Slavic world, of which Russia is the biggest portion.
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« Reply #4 on: November 14, 2007, 01:40:39 AM »

Well that's quite a few. Cheesy Are these traditional languages still used?
Indeed they are- even Latin! Some Western Rite Orthodox Churches use it.
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« Reply #5 on: November 14, 2007, 01:40:58 AM »

In the beginning, koiné greek was the liturgical language of the church of Rome!  Latin came later, what in the end of the 3rd century?
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« Reply #6 on: November 14, 2007, 01:46:30 AM »

Don't forget Armenian (or Salpy will be after you).
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« Reply #7 on: November 14, 2007, 01:53:59 AM »

Don't forget Armenian (or Salpy will be after you).

Sorry Salpy!

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« Reply #8 on: November 14, 2007, 09:41:28 AM »

Don't forget that the  "traditional" language for the native born US Citizens is English, Mexican people is Spanish, and for the Native Alaskans is their native toungue---you see in the Orthodox Church, the language of the people has been the traditional tongue spoken by the majority in the land so they can be evangelized. Centuries from now, the US church will be using English that is used now and who knows maybe as outdated as Koine or Church Slavonic is to the modern Greeks and Russians. Wink

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« Reply #9 on: November 14, 2007, 09:57:35 AM »

I am a member of an Antiochian Western Rite Parish and we use mainly English, although our Priest will do some of the Eucharistic Canon and some seasonal hymns/ sequences in Latin.

I have a 1962 Tridentine Rite missal with both Latin and English; when I was first learning the liturgy I would follow along and there are very few differences (obviously, when we sing the creed, there is one less word).
The English translations we use are  almost identical, with the beautiful thees and thous (no inclusive, or PC language).  All the musical parts of the liturgy are gregorian chant.  We do the Divine offices, vespers on Saturday evening, Lauds on Sunday morning before Mass/Divine Liturgy, and Compline after any midweek bible study or special service.  All the Psalms are chanted exactly the way they have been for hundreds of years, in Gregorian Chant (we follow the modes set by the Church) with the congregation divided into two "choirs".
We were a little shaky when we first started square note reading, but now it's almost second nature.

In the offices we do the seasonal Marion antiphon/hymns.  Again we do it all in English, but I have attenteded Tridentine Latin Mass (with my husband, who is Roman Catholic) and can do the Mass in Latin.  I have also learned some of the Beautiful Eucharistic hymns and seasonal sequences in Latin....Ubi Caritas, Tantum Ergo, O Salutaris Hostia, Ave Maria, O Sanctissima, Adoro Te Devote. Adoramus Te, and Ave Verum (Please forgive any misspellings....I can sing them, and know the English translation, but don't ask me to spell them.  Smiley

I have also attended Eastern Rite Liturgies, and they were in either all in English or a mix of English with some Greek.

After awhile, what seemed at first to be two very different rites, have more in common than not as I have become more familiar with them.  Some think that the Western Rite is "Roman Catholic", but it is as ancient and was used far and wide in many forms before and after the Schism in the Orthodox Church.  There are several Western Rite ancient Liturgies, just as there are different Eastern Rite liturgies.
I am only familiar with the St. John Chrysostom Liturgy (Eastern) and the Western Rite that is very much like your Tridentine Latin Mass, though I have read through many others and hope some day to be able to attend some.

And as a former Protestant, who belonged to a church that based everything in scripture, and attended years of Bible studies, I must confess I have learned more scripture, as it weaves in and out of my everyday life through the traditional Worship and Prayer of the Church, the same prayers and liturgies that Christians have been using for many generations. 
Times may have changed, but human beings haven't, and I am grateful for those who guarded and preserved the faith, some with their life blood, so that I am able to receive the fullness of the Gospel and Grace that has been handed down since the time of the Apostles.

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« Reply #10 on: November 14, 2007, 03:09:38 PM »

Not to forget Slovak, Czech, Polish, Ukrainian, German is those parts of Europe.
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« Reply #11 on: November 14, 2007, 08:19:24 PM »



In the offices we do the seasonal Marion antiphon/hymns.  Again we do it all in English, but I have attenteded Tridentine Latin Mass (with my husband, who is Roman Catholic) and can do the Mass in Latin.  I have also learned some of the Beautiful Eucharistic hymns and seasonal sequences in Latin....Ubi Caritas, Tantum Ergo, O Salutaris Hostia, Ave Maria, O Sanctissima, Adoro Te Devote. Adoramus Te, and Ave Verum (Please forgive any misspellings....I can sing them, and know the English translation, but don't ask me to spell them.  Smiley
Kaarina

Probably the only one of those hymns I know in English is the Ave Maria (Hail Mary Full of Grace...).  The rest I simply know in Latin.   Sadly, many of the English translations of those hymns I have seen aren't what the Latin says.  The Latin captures the meaning, hence that is why they are in Latin.  Then you look at a translation and it either almost gets it right (but still leaves out what the latin says) or a free-flowing translation that barely represents the hymn.  Some things are better left in the language they were written in I guess.   Now if I only could read Koiné Greek....
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« Reply #12 on: November 14, 2007, 08:25:01 PM »

Probably the only one of those hymns I know in English is the Ave Maria (Hail Mary Full of Grace...).  The rest I simply know in Latin.   Sadly, many of the English translations of those hymns I have seen aren't what the Latin says.  The Latin captures the meaning, hence that is why they are in Latin.  Then you look at a translation and it either almost gets it right (but still leaves out what the latin says) or a free-flowing translation that barely represents the hymn.  Some things are better left in the language they were written in I guess.   Now if I only could read Koiné Greek....

Adore te is wonderful!  Veni Creator Spiritus is probably one of the best.  Tantum ergo is beautiful.  O Salutaris Hostia..  We visited a cloistered Roman Catholic monastery where my cousin is a nun not too long ago.  They asked us to stay for benediction.  It was hard to hold back the emotions singing the hymns in Latin.  It was like the benedictions we had when we were kids (I don't know how many of those I ever served, couldn't tell you).   
I recommened if anyone here hasn't ever listened to the above hymns, please do so.  Find the CORRECT settings, I'm sure you can find them on the internet and then listen to them.   They are wonderful. 
Find decent translations, usually the ones in an official hymn book are rather close to what the latin means and just listen. 
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« Reply #13 on: November 14, 2007, 08:30:57 PM »

The cd I recommend, which I have had forever is from the Benedictine Monks of the Abbey-Saint Maurice& Saint Maur of Clervaux (in Belgium).  It is from Philips, Silver Line Classics. 
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« Reply #14 on: November 14, 2007, 09:11:13 PM »

Adore te is wonderful!  Veni Creator Spiritus is probably one of the best.  Tantum ergo is beautiful.  O Salutaris Hostia..  We visited a cloistered Roman Catholic monastery where my cousin is a nun not too long ago.  They asked us to stay for benediction.  It was hard to hold back the emotions singing the hymns in Latin.  It was like the benedictions we had when we were kids (I don't know how many of those I ever served, couldn't tell you).   
I recommened if anyone here hasn't ever listened to the above hymns, please do so.  Find the CORRECT settings, I'm sure you can find them on the internet and then listen to them.   They are wonderful. 
Find decent translations, usually the ones in an official hymn book are rather close to what the latin means and just listen. 

Username!,

O Salutaris Hostia is one of two hymns sung after Mass (Novus Ordo) at my Church - it's sung right before adoration.  Smiley

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« Reply #15 on: November 14, 2007, 10:37:51 PM »

In the beginning, koiné greek was the liturgical language of the church of Rome!  Latin came later, what in the end of the 3rd century?

What does "supporter of prostopiniej" mean?

Pope Victor was the first (according to Jerome) to use any Latin in the DL at Rome in 189.  He came from North Africa (then Latin speaking, more than Rome and much of Italy).  By the time of St. Hyppolytus (early 3rd cent.), the DL had more Latin in it, but the important parts (e.g. the Canon) were still in Greek.

St. Damasus (the first pontifex maximus Pope) completed the switch to Latin as the official lanuage  (e.g. commissioning Jerome's Vulgate) by 384, as it has remained since. 

Much of the Latin Liturgy predates Damasus: much of it is based on the Old Latin version, which resisted being replaced by Jerome's translation (his translation of the Psalms was totally rejected, the old Gallican is used).
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« Reply #16 on: November 14, 2007, 10:47:17 PM »

Sorry Salpy!

ARMENIAN

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« Reply #17 on: November 14, 2007, 10:55:04 PM »

Sorry Salpy!

ARMENIAN

That's not nearly big enough.    Grin

Actually, we use Classical Armenian ("Kurapar") in the liturgy.

The original post asked if any of the liturgical langauges were still "commonly used."  Is that asking if they are still living languages, spoken in daily life by native speakers?  Probably most are not, but I think Syriac may still be spoken by certain isolated communities in Iraq. 
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« Reply #18 on: November 15, 2007, 12:06:20 AM »

What does "supporter of prostopiniej" mean?

Pope Victor was the first (according to Jerome) to use any Latin in the DL at Rome in 189.  He came from North Africa (then Latin speaking, more than Rome and much of Italy).  By the time of St. Hyppolytus (early 3rd cent.), the DL had more Latin in it, but the important parts (e.g. the Canon) were still in Greek.

St. Damasus (the first pontifex maximus Pope) completed the switch to Latin as the official lanuage  (e.g. commissioning Jerome's Vulgate) by 384, as it has remained since. 

Much of the Latin Liturgy predates Damasus: much of it is based on the Old Latin version, which resisted being replaced by Jerome's translation (his translation of the Psalms was totally rejected, the old Gallican is used).

Prostopinije is the chant style used in the Carpathian Mountains of Eastern Slovakia and parts of western Ukraine, and so forth.  Visit a American-Carpatho-Russian Orthodox church or a Byzantine Catholic Church (although they modified theirs somewhat as of lately).  Some people call it Carpatho-plain chant.
Prosto-peen-e-ay.  That's how you say it, and it isn't still on the "your favorite chant style" poll on the homepage.
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« Reply #19 on: November 15, 2007, 05:14:23 AM »

Prostopinije is the chant style used in the Carpathian Mountains of Eastern Slovakia and parts of western Ukraine, and so forth.  Visit a American-Carpatho-Russian Orthodox church or a Byzantine Catholic Church (although they modified theirs somewhat as of lately).  Some people call it Carpatho-plain chant.
Prosto-peen-e-ay.  That's how you say it, and it isn't still on the "your favorite chant style" poll on the homepage.

and it isn't still on the "your favorite chant style" poll on the homepage.

Maybe Anastasios, who should by his own background not have missed this, will take note. Cheesy
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« Reply #20 on: November 15, 2007, 08:10:19 AM »

Geez is used by the Ethiopian and Eritrean Churches.
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« Reply #21 on: November 15, 2007, 01:19:22 PM »

Adore te is wonderful!  Veni Creator Spiritus is probably one of the best.  Tantum ergo is beautiful.  O Salutaris Hostia..  We visited a cloistered Roman Catholic monastery where my cousin is a nun not too long ago.  They asked us to stay for benediction.  It was hard to hold back the emotions singing the hymns in Latin.  It was like the benedictions we had when we were kids (I don't know how many of those I ever served, couldn't tell you).   
I recommened if anyone here hasn't ever listened to the above hymns, please do so.  Find the CORRECT settings, I'm sure you can find them on the internet and then listen to them.   They are wonderful. 
Find decent translations, usually the ones in an official hymn book are rather close to what the latin means and just listen. 

I learned them all in Latin first (I was on my way to becoming a Roman Catholic in a Parish that used Latin in the NO, and werer eagerly waiting for permission to use the TLM, which, I think they switched over one minute aftter midnight on the 14th Wink

I did go to their first festival TLM on the Feast of the feast of Corpus Christi (I think  I have that right, we celebrate most of the same feasts, but sometimes have slightly diffeent names in Western Rite)

The English versions of the hymns, especially the Marion, I think are very well done.   We have a Western Rite hymnal and our Priest is allowed to use other hymns, approved by the Bishop, that didn't make it into the Fist published WRO hymnal.  Since there is a Lutheran backround in the congregation (no body sings, nor has a more beautiful hymn tradition than the Lutherans). Many Latin, and Eastern Orthodox hymns werer translated by a man called John Mason Neale.  He traveled the world and fell in love with the music in the Orthodox churches, and translated many hymns not only from them, but many of our tradional Latin Hymns were translated by him.  He was an Anglican, about as Anglo Catholic as you can get.  He left thousands of translations whose English.  He was a gifted poet and a very holy man.  I don't know if you have ever heard of him.  I have always wanted to study his life more, I bet there were times he was on a knife's edge of conversion (or maybe he thought he was already a part of The Church...I think he was part of that VIA MEDIA-Branch theory group who considered themselves  an autonomous part of the Catholic Church-this was long before the Aglicans went waco in their theology, and most serious Anglo Catholics converted).

You get me going on church history, especially anything with liturgy or hymns, and I keep saying "This is my last sentence", but always have one more. I'll quit now.

If you would like any English translations of certain hymns or sequences, I would be glad to find them or refer you to where you can find them.  And if you have any interest at all in translation to English Google books has many of his books on hymnody and liturgy, he has a great treatise on the origin the the pew (but it is spelled funny (pue?) and I missed this great book for a long time becase I had no idea what it was about.
His books are in public domain, so you can read many for free at google books and other places.
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« Reply #22 on: November 15, 2007, 01:24:56 PM »

I am trying to check into my "roots", and have been reading anything I can find on Karelia, and the Orthodox Church. 
I think they spoke Finnish, but were annexed by Russia.  I know there is a big Monastery there, and I would love to hear some music from that tradition.  I don't know if they eventually adopted the Russian Language, but knowing the Finns, I highly doubt it.  There was sever persecution under the Soviets, and I even can trace relatives that died there during that time.
Anybody know anything about the Karelian Orthodox, or even the Finnish Orthodox Church?
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« Reply #23 on: November 15, 2007, 05:21:41 PM »

I am trying to check into my "roots", and have been reading anything I can find on Karelia, and the Orthodox Church. 
I think they spoke Finnish, but were annexed by Russia.  I know there is a big Monastery there, and I would love to hear some music from that tradition.  I don't know if they eventually adopted the Russian Language, but knowing the Finns, I highly doubt it.  There was sever persecution under the Soviets, and I even can trace relatives that died there during that time.
Anybody know anything about the Karelian Orthodox, or even the Finnish Orthodox Church?

I'm in a rush, but God willing will return to this.

I vaguely remember coming across something on U-tube with Finnish hymns.

The Finnish Orthodox Church uses Finnish, almost exclusively.  There are those who use Slavonic, e.g. the Great Cathedral in Helisinki.

I don't know a great deal, but I have been to Finnland and worship and communed there.

Btw the way, Archbishop Paul of Blessed memory wrote a small book on Orthodoxy, one of the best introductions to the Faith "The Faith We Hold." It's been translated in many languages, including English.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Finnish_Orthodox_Church#Karelian_monasteries

gives accurate information.

Btw some of my ancestors came from across the sea and the mountains (Norway, Sweden).
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« Reply #24 on: November 16, 2007, 06:35:04 PM »

Quote
I know there is a big Monastery there, and I would love to hear some music from that tradition.

Yes, Valaam Monastery. It's amazing! Their choir is awesome too.
Listen to these:
http://www.valaam.ru/en/mp3/
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