Author Topic: Should the WR come up with their own liturgy?  (Read 11702 times)

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Offline collin_nunis

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Should the WR come up with their own liturgy?
« on: November 13, 2007, 10:23:19 AM »
I've followed the story of the Western Rite with great interest. In fact, it was through my friend who became Orthodox via the Western Rite who told me about it.

I've taken some free time to glance (glance... not study) both the Divine Liturgies of Ss. Tikhon and Gregory. Loved it. One thing worries me though:-

Well, in all respects, both the WR liturgies come from Roman Catholic and High Anglican sources. Of course, there is no dispute of "correct theology" and doctrine as I would have every reason to believe that the bishops who endorsed the WR would have looked into any sort of "theological" and "doctrinal" deficiency. However, does it now fully live up to Orthodox standards? This is just my question as I have heard that despite the WR being Eastern in theology, many have argued that the liturgy does not. And we all know how Orthodox view their liturgy.

Of course, the adaptation of the BCP for Orthodox use was a smart one but doesn't anyone feel that it is time to move on and revise the liturgy so that it remains Western Rite in worship without discounting on Orthodox theology. Of course, it is hoped that the revision turns out for the better and that it edifies the flock more than what it does now.

Any ideas?

Offline kaarina33

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Re: Should the WR come up with their own liturgy?
« Reply #1 on: November 13, 2007, 08:56:16 PM »
The Roman Catholic Liturgy and the Anglican Liturgy were not something made up after the schism.  They existed in Orthodoxy in the early Church.  The Western Rite restored something that was eclipsed and suffered from it's association with the Roman Catholic Church post schism, and in some ways, but less than expected, reflected the Papal errors, the Filioque, and other aberrations.  But until Vatican II, it's decay actually suffered very little.
So the Orthodox Western Rite didn't "borrow" these liturgies until it could come up with it's own Western Rite.  I can't think of any thing more unorthodox.

Here are some helpful links to the history, restoration and the current happenings in the Western Rite use of the Orthodox Church.
I think you will find them very informative.

If after you have become more familiar with the history and how there is not a discrepancy or theology between the rites, (there were some changes made before they were adopted, and this is not a recent, but happened nearly nearly a hundred years ago.

See "Introduction to the Orthodox Western Rite" at
http://westernorthodox.com/westernised

You will find many articles and information there , and hopefully answers to many questions.

Also Father Nicholas Alford's article is very good.  "Light from the East's from the West".  Find it at http://members.aol.com/FrNicholas/history.htm

The Western Orthodoxy blog is another: http://westernorthodox.blogspot.com/

I found some of the best reading by going to Orthodox Church/Western Rite Websites.  You will find a list of those at either of the above links.
Two I like very much are
ST. NICHOLAS ORTHODOX CHURCH http://www.spokaneorthodox.com/
HOLY INCARNATION ORTHODOX CHURCH http://www.holyincarnation.org/

If you  have theological concerns, I am sure there are Priests who could help you with those around here.  I am new here so I am just getting to know everyone.

I would also be happy to put you in touch with Western Rite Orthodox Priests that I know personally if by a long shot there are not any available right now at this site.

Thank you for your interest and concern in Western Rite.  I have attended both extensively and I love them both and find that when our hearts are turned to the Lord, Heaven bends down and touches Earth if we worship Him in Spirit in Truth in the Orthodox Church.

I find that it is more my preparation body and soul before attending Divine Liturgy, and my openness and participation and unity of faith and love with those I am in community with to be have the greatest effect on receiving the Grace God pours out during the liturgy.
And I don't just mean attending vespers, lauds, fasting, but living out my whole life as one unending Liturgy.

In the Mercy of Christ, my only Hope,

Kaarina
We are always living God's future in a broken present,
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Offline ozgeorge

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Re: Should the WR come up with their own liturgy?
« Reply #2 on: November 14, 2007, 01:35:46 AM »
The Roman Catholic Liturgy and the Anglican Liturgy were not something made up after the schism.  They existed in Orthodoxy in the early Church.  The Western Rite restored something that was eclipsed and suffered from it's association with the Roman Catholic Church post schism, and in some ways, but less than expected, reflected the Papal errors, the Filioque, and other aberrations.  But until Vatican II, it's decay actually suffered very little.
That's right!
A Roman Catholic on another thread asked what the traditional Orthodox liturgical languages are. I wonder what they will say when they see my reply that Latin is one of them! :D
« Last Edit: November 14, 2007, 01:36:36 AM by ozgeorge »
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Offline collin_nunis

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Re: Should the WR come up with their own liturgy?
« Reply #3 on: November 14, 2007, 01:40:25 AM »
Well, my friend is the leader of a new up-and-coming WR mission in Oklahoma City and yes, I've read all the links that you have given. I thank you for the effort. As per what you have said, the Roman Catholic Liturgy and the Anglican Liturgy were not something made up after the schism. I remember reading that St. Tikhon saw much of Orthodoxy in the Anglican liturgy, and corrected whatever deficiencies in the liturgy.

However, as per some arguments, some people find the Eucharistic prayer in the BCP to be "lacking", as compared to the Eucharistic prayer in the Roman Rite. Perhaps that was why the Roman Catholic Church did away with the BCP Eucharistic Prayer and included the Roman Canon instead. Perhaps a suggestion to use a generic Eucharistic Prayer from the Sarum Rite for use in the WR would be a suggestion. I think that will be my only suggestion.

May God grant more than just MANY, MANY YEARS!


Offline ialmisry

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Re: Should the WR come up with their own liturgy?
« Reply #4 on: November 14, 2007, 10:59:38 PM »
Well, my friend is the leader of a new up-and-coming WR mission in Oklahoma City and yes, I've read all the links that you have given. I thank you for the effort. As per what you have said, the Roman Catholic Liturgy and the Anglican Liturgy were not something made up after the schism. I remember reading that St. Tikhon saw much of Orthodoxy in the Anglican liturgy, and corrected whatever deficiencies in the liturgy.

However, as per some arguments, some people find the Eucharistic prayer in the BCP to be "lacking", as compared to the Eucharistic prayer in the Roman Rite. Perhaps that was why the Roman Catholic Church did away with the BCP Eucharistic Prayer and included the Roman Canon instead. Perhaps a suggestion to use a generic Eucharistic Prayer from the Sarum Rite for use in the WR would be a suggestion. I think that will be my only suggestion.

May God grant more than just MANY, MANY YEARS!



God grant the mission many fruitful years! I'm 100% Eastern, but behind the WRO 100%.  Fr. David Lynch, formerly of St. Augustine's I believe, is in retirement at our parish in Chicago.

Does anyone know of a canonical WRO near San Antonio, Tx?

As the BCP ultimately comes from the Roman rite, with some mixture of the Gallican, moving the DL of St. Tikhon poses no problem.
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Offline Veniamin

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Re: Should the WR come up with their own liturgy?
« Reply #5 on: November 14, 2007, 11:29:29 PM »
Does anyone know of a canonical WRO near San Antonio, Tx?

TinaG had mentioned to me at coffee hour a couple of weeks ago that she'd heard about one, but hasn't had any luck finding out more.  Where are you located?
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Offline ialmisry

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Re: Should the WR come up with their own liturgy?
« Reply #6 on: November 14, 2007, 11:35:49 PM »
TinaG had mentioned to me at coffee hour a couple of weeks ago that she'd heard about one, but hasn't had any luck finding out more.  Where are you located?

I'm in Chicago, but I'm being shipped for this weekend in San Antonio (convention).  I know that there were a number of WRO parishes in TX, and thought I'd led moral support by attending if there was a WRO nearby.
Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
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if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth

Offline Veniamin

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Re: Should the WR come up with their own liturgy?
« Reply #7 on: November 14, 2007, 11:44:46 PM »
I'm in Chicago, but I'm being shipped for this weekend in San Antonio (convention).  I know that there were a number of WRO parishes in TX, and thought I'd led moral support by attending if there was a WRO nearby.

Oh, well, in that case, sorry, there aren't.  But while you're in our lovely city, feel free to join us for liturgy at St. Anthony Orthodox Church.
Artillery adds dignity to what would otherwise be a vulgar brawl. ~Frederick the Great

Offline ialmisry

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Re: Should the WR come up with their own liturgy?
« Reply #8 on: November 16, 2007, 08:50:50 PM »
Oh, well, in that case, sorry, there aren't.  But while you're in our lovely city, feel free to join us for liturgy at St. Anthony Orthodox Church.

I'm here. I'm looking into taking you up on the invitation, :D, although I notice your web site says it's annual parish meeting.

I remember a priest who used to say that every inquirer should be made to attend a parish meeting before become a catechumen.  Just so he knows what he is getting into. :o

P.S. I've already walked around a bit.  Lovely city indeed!  Ah, to be in a red state.
« Last Edit: November 16, 2007, 08:51:49 PM by ialmisry »
Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth

Offline Veniamin

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Re: Should the WR come up with their own liturgy?
« Reply #9 on: November 16, 2007, 08:55:27 PM »
I'm here. I'm looking into taking you up on the invitation, :D, although I notice your web site says it's annual parish meeting.

I remember a priest who used to say that every inquirer should be made to attend a parish meeting before become a catechumen.  Just so he knows what he is getting into. :o

P.S. I've already walked around a bit.  Lovely city indeed!  Ah, to be in a red state.

Don't worry, we normally have coffee hour before the meeting, so you could make your departure in between the two, along with most of the rest of the parish. :P
Artillery adds dignity to what would otherwise be a vulgar brawl. ~Frederick the Great

Offline Suaiden

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Re: Should the WR come up with their own liturgy?
« Reply #10 on: June 01, 2008, 10:58:15 AM »
I've followed the story of the Western Rite with great interest. In fact, it was through my friend who became Orthodox via the Western Rite who told me about it.

I've taken some free time to glance (glance... not study) both the Divine Liturgies of Ss. Tikhon and Gregory. Loved it. One thing worries me though:-

Well, in all respects, both the WR liturgies come from Roman Catholic and High Anglican sources. Of course, there is no dispute of "correct theology" and doctrine as I would have every reason to believe that the bishops who endorsed the WR would have looked into any sort of "theological" and "doctrinal" deficiency. However, does it now fully live up to Orthodox standards? This is just my question as I have heard that despite the WR being Eastern in theology, many have argued that the liturgy does not. And we all know how Orthodox view their liturgy.

Of course, the adaptation of the BCP for Orthodox use was a smart one but doesn't anyone feel that it is time to move on and revise the liturgy so that it remains Western Rite in worship without discounting on Orthodox theology. Of course, it is hoped that the revision turns out for the better and that it edifies the flock more than what it does now.

Any ideas?

Here's an easy idea! Use pre-schism Western Orthodox liturgies that are in existence and have been translated for decades now.  But I don't think it sells that well to pull in disaffected Anglicans, et cetera. (The number of Roman Catholics coming in by diffusion, I imagine, has reduced because of the Pope allowing the Tridentine Mass I guess).
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Offline Entscheidungsproblem

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Re: Should the WR come up with their own liturgy?
« Reply #11 on: June 01, 2008, 01:32:59 PM »
Here's an easy idea! Use pre-schism Western Orthodox liturgies that are in existence and have been translated for decades now.  But I don't think it sells that well to pull in disaffected Anglicans, et cetera. (The number of Roman Catholics coming in by diffusion, I imagine, has reduced because of the Pope allowing the Tridentine Mass I guess).

I would absolutely love to see the Ambrosian rite performed.  I attended it once in Italy at a Roman Catholic Church and it was absolutely stunning.
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