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Author Topic: A little help and advice in regargs to thanksgiving  (Read 14273 times) Average Rating: 0
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Quinault
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« on: November 12, 2007, 05:04:24 PM »

My family is in the process of converting to Eastern Orthodoxy. We have three kids-6, 2, and 5mths. I am still the sole source of food for out 5mth old.

We are going to have Thanksgiving meal at my in-laws this year. This is our first year trying to observe the nativity fast. We are planning to bring some cedar planked salmon for the meal. My question is this; I know that the kids and I are not supposed to participate in a strict fast. But I don't exactly want my husband to be the only one observing the fast either. Does fasting from dairy only mean cow dairy? Are sheep cheeses ok?
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« Reply #1 on: November 12, 2007, 05:10:25 PM »

The 22nd is not a fast day.  Nativity fast begins the following week.
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« Reply #2 on: November 12, 2007, 05:14:50 PM »

Really? I was told it begins on the 15th

http://orthodoxwiki.org/Nativity

http://www.goarch.org/en/chapel/calendar.asp?Y=2007&M=11

Did I misunderstand?
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« Reply #3 on: November 12, 2007, 05:17:20 PM »

Old calendar vs. New Calendar
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« Reply #4 on: November 12, 2007, 05:19:47 PM »

Doh!!!  New calanderists!!! LOL

My apologies.

I'm Serbian Orthodox, we follow the Julian calendar.  Hence, I'll be stuffing my pie hole with big bird!!!  

Well then... to answer your question more specifically, I would go with a modified menu for you and the kids.  As far as I know, dairy means dairy (but again, I'm Serbian and we tend to be more strict than most).  The only exception on the dairy end is soy milk or some derivative thereof.
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« Reply #5 on: November 12, 2007, 05:20:22 PM »

Old calendar vs. New Calendar

You beat me to the punch, old and wise one.  Wink
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« Reply #6 on: November 12, 2007, 05:35:53 PM »

You beat me to the punch, old and wise one.  Wink

Well, you got one of those right.  Wink
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« Reply #7 on: November 12, 2007, 05:38:06 PM »

Quinalt--

Which jurisdiction are you entering?

Are you in the Greek Archdiocese? If so, we have a dispensation from the Archbishop to celebrate Thanksgiving as the 'Americans' do---that is, until Holy Orthodoxy becomes the majority fath, and we move Thanksgiving to be closer to Canadian thanksgiving.

I am unsure of this, but I thought the Antiochians also may be allowed to break the fast just on this day.

Of course, you should always 'Talk To Your Priest' to determine what he thinks is best...
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« Reply #8 on: November 12, 2007, 05:40:47 PM »

FrChris; We are inquirers at an Antiochian parish. Unfortunatly our inquirers/catechumen class is canceled for the next two weeks. And the thoughts about Thanksgiving didn't occur to us until now. Roll Eyes
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« Reply #9 on: November 12, 2007, 05:43:14 PM »

Quinalt---we have several Antiochian posters here...I'm sure one (or, more likely, all of them!) will be weighing in on this topic!  Wink
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« Reply #10 on: November 12, 2007, 08:28:57 PM »

^^ Great avatar, btw, Quinalt!

Where'd ya find it?
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« Reply #11 on: November 12, 2007, 08:29:39 PM »

Quinalt---we have several Antiochian posters here...I'm sure one (or, more likely, all of them!) will be weighing in on this topic!  Wink

Yes.  So I'll open my pie hole (before stuffing the big bird in).

Yes, there is a dispensation for the Thanksgiving holiday.  From Metropolitan Philip on down we are quite adament about it, for the simple reason that making an issue of the fast on the Thanksgiving holiday would violate the rules of hospitality, needlessly break the cardinal rule of charity, become a scandal for the non-Orthodox family members (a reality for a majority here I believe) as Pharisaic, etc., etc., etc.   Given the context of America right now, breaking the fast on Thanksgiving would be keeping it, spirit not letter.

But the day after, back to the fast.  God gave us freezers for that purpose.

Of course, as Fr Chris pointed out, we convert the country and solve the problem, and more weighty ones.

As you're going to an Antiochean parish, I'll tell you that turkey in Arabic is "diik ruumi" which can be translated "[Eastern] Orthodox Rooster."  so dig in.

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« Reply #12 on: November 12, 2007, 08:32:10 PM »


As you're going to an Antiochean parish, I'll tell you that turkey in Arabic is "diik ruumi" which can be translated "[Eastern] Orthodox Rooster."  so dig in.


Now, that is interesting! I took a year of Arabic at Holy Cross, and we never got to that lesson...

probably because the turkey is rarely mentioned in the Liturgy  Wink !
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« Reply #13 on: November 12, 2007, 08:58:20 PM »

Now, that is interesting! I took a year of Arabic at Holy Cross, and we never got to that lesson...

probably because the turkey is rarely mentioned in the Liturgy  Wink !

Or because of the Zionists: I just found out, much to my suprise, that the citizens of the regime in Tel Aviv are the largest consumers of turkey in the world.  For what reason, I have no idea.

As I remember, turkey comes from a Jewish-Sephardi term for peacock, they had no idea what else to call it.  The links of trade between the Christians, Greeks, etc. in the Ottoman empire (over all of us at the time) with the Europeans who were importing from the New World, btw, is how the Arabic term arose.
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« Reply #14 on: November 12, 2007, 09:10:36 PM »

^^ Great avatar, btw, Quinalt!

Where'd ya find it?

It is NW american indian art. I needed a cool raven to use and I found <---- and have used it as an avatar for years now. People rarely remember my username, or even my first name (Shalom) but they always remember my avatar. (and no, despite the name I am NOT Jewish. I am an american indian with a VERY Jewish name).

http://209.206.175.157/
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« Reply #15 on: November 12, 2007, 09:12:49 PM »

Yes.  So I'll open my pie hole (before stuffing the big bird in).

Yes, there is a dispensation for the Thanksgiving holiday.  From Metropolitan Philip on down we are quite adament about it, for the simple reason that making an issue of the fast on the Thanksgiving holiday would violate the rules of hospitality, needlessly break the cardinal rule of charity, become a scandal for the non-Orthodox family members (a reality for a majority here I believe) as Pharisaic, etc., etc., etc.   Given the context of America right now, breaking the fast on Thanksgiving would be keeping it, spirit not letter.

But the day after, back to the fast.  God gave us freezers for that purpose.

Of course, as Fr Chris pointed out, we convert the country and solve the problem, and more weighty ones.

As you're going to an Antiochean parish, I'll tell you that turkey in Arabic is "diik ruumi" which can be translated "[Eastern] Orthodox Rooster."  so dig in.



Thank you very much for the information. Ironically my staunch Baptist inlaws are pumping us for information about Eastern Orthdoxy. It is kind of cool actually. As of yet thou my staunchly pentacostal family are keeping their distance from the orthodox conversation.
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« Reply #16 on: November 12, 2007, 09:14:33 PM »

FrChris; We are inquirers at an Antiochian parish. Unfortunatly our inquirers/catechumen class is canceled for the next two weeks. And the thoughts about Thanksgiving didn't occur to us until now. Roll Eyes

It is my understanding that as an inquirer, fasting is not required.  Most especially for you as a nursing Mom and your children.  Additionally, even as a new convert many priests do not require following the full fast the first year but ease into it.  

It is a struggle of obedience and a battle against pride.  I would suggest you speak to your priest, but since you asked the group IMHO you ought not to fast at all.

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« Reply #17 on: November 12, 2007, 09:18:10 PM »

It is my understanding that as an inquirer, fasting is not required.  Most especially for you as a nursing Mom and your children.  Additionally, even as a new convert many priests do not require following the full fast the first year but ease into it.  

It is a struggle of obedience and a battle against pride.  I would suggest you speak to your priest, but since you asked the group IMHO you ought not to fast at all.

Athanasia

Mostly I was asking in regards to my husband. He wanted to do the fast this year. But we have the rest of our lives don't we? Grin So we will wait until next year. It is kinda funny, looking at the guidelines, out of the last 7+ years there would have only been aprox 2 mths I would have been able to observe the fast. I will have to find a middle ground for next year. I don't exactly want to make one small meal for my husband that adheres to the fast and then have everyone else chowing down on all the items he can't eat right in front of him.
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« Reply #18 on: November 12, 2007, 10:52:24 PM »

It is NW american indian art. I needed a cool raven to use and I found <---- and have used it as an avatar for years now. People rarely remember my username, or even my first name (Shalom) but they always remember my avatar. (and no, despite the name I am NOT Jewish. I am an american indian with a VERY Jewish name).

Don't tell that to the Mormons.  LOL. (I hear that genetics are forcing them to admit that the Amerindians aren't all the lost tribes).

What nation?  I'm interested in the amerindians finding Orthodoxy, like the Aleuts.

I missed the part about you nursing.  Then the answer is simple: NO FASTING FOR YOU.

As posted above, catechumens are eased into it.  My sons are already being trained (my oldest, 10, actually asked to start the Eucharist fast himself "so I can be hungry for Jesus like you Baba."  No reason for newbies to go cold turkey (oooops! did I say that? Tongue).

As for your Baptist inlaws, on our old haunt on ECF, someone posted the link to the baptist mission manual on the Orthodox, which has converted a number (of Baptists that is! angel) and some Orthodox have even used, I am told, as a catechism.  I am taking that your Pentacostal family, though cold to the Orthodoxy thing, haven't disowned you either.  Count your blessings: many have not been so lucky, and then, you never know: I've known of many who brought the whole family in.
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« Reply #19 on: November 12, 2007, 11:33:28 PM »

I am Yakima, Quinault and Nez Perce. My son has the coolest of american indian names; Ollokot. We waited years to have a boy to use that name on! I checked a book out from our local library about indian converts to Orthodoxy, it was called "Memory eternal" I think. It was fairly thick and looked really good. But I have about 10-15 other books on orthodoxy that I am working on currently, so that book will have to wait.

My kids call their father Baba too! In Lushootseed the name for father is "bad" (pronounced bahd) but Baba is daddy. So between that and my name we fit interestingly well into the Jewish districts here.
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« Reply #20 on: November 12, 2007, 11:50:49 PM »

When I was a member of an Antiochian parish we did not fast on Thanksgiving. Of course now I am a member of a jurisdiction that follows the Julian calendar so we'll be puttin' the feed bag on. We even have a dispensation for Friday so as to not waste the leftovers !  Tongue
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« Reply #21 on: November 12, 2007, 11:55:12 PM »

And I must apologize for my horrible typo in the subject line. It is driving ME nuts and I am the one that did it.

....regargs....bleh......
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« Reply #22 on: November 12, 2007, 11:57:10 PM »

I am Yakima, Quinault and Nez Perce. My son has the coolest of american indian names; Ollokot. We waited years to have a boy to use that name on! I checked a book out from our local library about indian converts to Orthodoxy, it was called "Memory eternal" I think. It was fairly thick and looked really good. But I have about 10-15 other books on orthodoxy that I am working on currently, so that book will have to wait.

My kids call their father Baba too! In Lushootseed the name for father is "bad" (pronounced bahd) but Baba is daddy. So between that and my name we fit interestingly well into the Jewish districts here.

Yes. My sons mother was (actually is, but we're divorced) Romanian: in Romanian baba means "grandmother."  In Arabic it means "daddy" (and "Pope!).  Oh, and btw, I am Hebrew on my mother's side.

What does Ollokot mean?

The nations you mention are all I believe far away from native turkey country.  Do you still have turkey for Thanksgiving.  You mentioned salmon I believe.  In which case things are easier because many Antiocheans allow fish during the Nativity Fast (in Alexandria that's the normal practice: Apostles Fast too).

Also, it is my understanding that the real impetus for the canonization of St. Herman, the patron of America (for ALL Orthodox) came from the veneration of the amerindians of him.
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« Reply #23 on: November 13, 2007, 12:00:29 AM »

And I must apologize for my horrible typo in the subject line. It is driving ME nuts and I am the one that did it.

....regargs....bleh......

21 posts and no one seemed to notice.  I wouldn't worry.

It's not the "i" in "homoiousios" (stick around these forums and you'll get the reference, if you don't already).
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« Reply #24 on: November 13, 2007, 12:05:34 AM »

A traditional for my tribes thanksgiving meal here would be pretty expensive; crab, clams, salmon, venison ect.

My husband on the other hand is an Iroquois/Jew mix. So he is where the turkey fits in. And since we are going to my in-laws for thansgiving there is sure to be turkey in abundance.

Ollokot means "little frog" he is a relation of mine. He was also Chief Joseph's brother and the war chief for the Nez Perce tribe. His middle name is Moshe, so he is a little frog born from the water Grin

http://www.u-s-history.com/pages/h3892.html
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« Reply #25 on: November 13, 2007, 12:12:33 AM »

I have read a bit about Saint Herman. And in my eldest daughters catechism class it is their patron saint for the group. The story of Saint Peter the Aleut is pretty amazing. I believe there is more information on him in the aforementioned book, but don't hold me to it.
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« Reply #26 on: November 13, 2007, 12:55:22 AM »

I have read a bit about Saint Herman. And in my eldest daughters catechism class it is their patron saint for the group. The story of Saint Peter the Aleut is pretty amazing. I believe there is more information on him in the aforementioned book, but don't hold me to it.
What book?  Maybe I'm blind, but I can't find where you mentioned this book with info on St. Peter the Aleut.  I'd be interested to know what info you have on him.  I'm as Western (and even a little Eastern) European as they get, but my sponsors gave me the Christian name Peter, after the Aleut martyr, when I was chrismated.  Hence, I have a Native American for my patron saint.
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« Reply #27 on: November 13, 2007, 01:15:43 AM »

Talk with your priest before deciding what to do. But.....

My opinion is that you are an American. This is an American feast day that is perhaps the last remaining holiday to have any vestige of its original intent: a day of feasting, sharing, enjoying cross-cultural (Indians and Englishmen, originally)  relationships and most of all, being thankful to God for the religious freedom that the original settlers found here and passed on to you so that you could make your free choice to become Orthodox almost 400 years later. That in itself is reason to celebrate the national holiday - not modestly and reluctantly, but with gusto! In the annals of human history that religious freedom is rather astonishing.

To take one day out of the Nativity fast to enjoy this American holiday is not going to disrupt your fast or your spiritual life. We aren't Roman Catholics - this isn't Church Law.
It is to help you, not enslave you.

Furthermore, you are going to your relatives to enjoy their hospitality, It would be rude to pick at the food or not eat it. Better not to go at all or just go for desert.

I know someone whose bishop used to have traditional Thanksgiving dinner at his priest's home -- turkey and all the trimmings! For both, it was Nativity fast before and after but not on that day.

I know alot of people will be all over me regarding this, but, oh well.....

There is a lot of worse nationalism that goes on in Orthodoxy than eating turkey at grandma and grandpa's on Thanksgiving day.
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« Reply #28 on: November 13, 2007, 01:21:26 AM »

If you decide to enjoy Thanksgiving...the real challenge will be:
A. turning down the leftovers they want to send you home with
B. throwing the left-overs away if they insist
C. Freezing the leftovers until after Christmas

Because everyone knows that the Friday after Thanksgiving is the BEST day with all those left-overs, not Thanksgiving Day itself.
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« Reply #29 on: November 13, 2007, 01:40:07 AM »

We can't take any leftovers home since it is about a 5 hour drive. And we have decided not to observe the fast this year for Thanksgiving. Although I am sure we will still eat more cedar planked salmon than turkey anyway.

The book is "Memory eternal" and it is about Tlingit culture. After further research the book timeline begins after his death from 1834-1990. But I remember seeing mention of him in it. I could be incorrect though, was only able to flip thru it before returning it to the library. I have a great number of books that I need to read as an inquirer, so I don't have the time right now to delve into that book very indepth yet. The book is published by The University of Washington press.

 http://www.amazon.com/Memory-Eternal-Orthodox-Christianity-Centuries/dp/0295978066/ref=sr_1_7/102-2761824-7305759?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1194931903&sr=8-7
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« Reply #30 on: November 13, 2007, 08:59:58 AM »

This has been interesting to read.

Being Australian we don't celebrate Thanksgiving (however our current Prime Minister has tried to get us to celebrate it in May for the past few years though most people still don't know that).

Having converted to the Coptic Church, we have our own calendar which is very similiar to the Julian one.

Hence this problem has been enlightening to read about.

Hope you solve it easily although glad to see those on the Old Calendar don't have this problem!
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« Reply #31 on: November 13, 2007, 09:58:35 AM »

If I am having dinner in a non-Orthodox home, I should eat what they offer me. At least, that's pretty much what I practice. There is also a reference in one of the epistles of St. Paul with regard to eating at the home of non-believers which basically says the same thing. St. Paul goes on to point out that if the meat for dinner is known to have been offered as a sacrifice to pagan idols, you shouldn't eat it, however. Perhaps someone else here can recall the epistle's chapter and verses.
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« Reply #32 on: November 13, 2007, 10:02:53 AM »

Hope you solve it easily although glad to see those on the Old Calendar don't have this problem!

Since we can't convince the new calendarists to change to the Julian calendar, maybe we can convince the Yankees to changes Thanksgiving to the same day as it is celebrated in Soviet Canuckistan (which coincides with Columbus day in America).  This will solve the problem for everyone*.   Grin












*Everyone does not include people in the South, who still haven't figured out the civil war is over.  Tongue
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« Reply #33 on: November 13, 2007, 10:05:11 AM »

From our parish newsletter:

AMERICAN THANKSGIVING DAY- On the Fourth Thursday of November 22, the people of the United States
gather in their families to thank the Lord for all that He has done for us, and for our world. Many Orthodox
Parishes serve the American Thanksgiving Service written by St. Tikon when he was a bishop in the United States.
The Holy Synod of Bishops of the Self-Ruling Archdiocese of The Antiochian Orthodox Church of North America
has granted to Antiochian Orthodox Christians the oeconomia of eating a traditional Thanksgiving Feast including
Turkey on this day despite it being in the Nativity Lenten fast period. Your non-fasting recipes that have leftovers
will need to be packaged and frozen awaiting the feast of the Nativity to finish enjoying them.

http://www.theforerunner.org/pubdocs/PDF%20Newsletter/Voice1107.pdf

As I recall,  Ithink we have some recipes on the family Forum for  Fasting Thanksgiving  if you are interested.

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« Reply #34 on: November 13, 2007, 10:06:59 AM »

*Everyone does not include people in the South, who still haven't figured out the civil war is over.  Tongue













You mean the War of Northern Aggression.
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« Reply #35 on: November 13, 2007, 10:10:49 AM »

Since we can't convince the new calendarists to change to the Julian calendar

Haven't given up on that yet mate Cool

Would be a much easier way to solve this problem for you Americans as you yourself can attest to my Old Calendar friend Wink
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« Reply #36 on: November 13, 2007, 10:13:41 AM »

You mean the War of Northern Aggression.















In my son's pre-school, they call it "the war of southern capitulation".
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« Reply #37 on: November 13, 2007, 10:15:22 AM »

In my son's pre-school, they call it "the war of southern capitulation".















I see you Yankees start the indoctrination early.
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« Reply #38 on: November 13, 2007, 10:24:36 AM »

Oh... and the songs they sing...

Yes, we'll rally round the flag, boys, we'll rally once again,
    Shouting the battle cry of Freedom,
We will rally from the hillside, we'll gather from the plain,
Shouting the battle cry of Freedom.

(Chorus)
The Union forever,
Hurrah! boys, hurrah!
Down with the traitors,
Up with the stars,
While we rally round the flag, boys,
Rally once again,
Shouting the battle cry of Freedom.

We are springing to the call of our brothers gone before,
    Shouting the battle cry of Freedom,
And we'll fill our vacant ranks with a million freemen more,
    Shouting the battle cry of Freedom.
(Chorus)

We will welcome to our numbers the loyal, true and brave,
    Shouting the battle cry of Freedom,
And although they may be poor, not a man shall be a slave,
    Shouting the battle cry of Freedom.
(Chorus)

So we're springing to the call from the East and from the West,
    Shouting the battle cry of Freedom,
And we'll hurl the Rebel crew from the land that we love best,
Shouting the battle cry of Freedom.
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« Reply #39 on: November 13, 2007, 10:30:33 AM »

Strange that you do things like that Roll Eyes

It was only a few years ago that it actually became compulsory for people to pass history to get a school certificate here in Australia (in NSW at least).

However we do teach our children historical songs about famous criminals and criminal activities. But beware what happens to jolly swagmen who hide jumbucks from troopers in their tuckerbags... "And his ghost may be heard as you pass by that billabong...".

Why are you using tiny writing too?
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« Reply #40 on: November 13, 2007, 10:34:00 AM »

Didymus... I'm just razzing the southerners (like Veniamin).  My kid is not even in preschool yet, but he's probably already locked and loaded, ready to take me out in defense of the South!!! LOL
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« Reply #41 on: November 13, 2007, 10:41:09 AM »

You mean the War of Northern Aggression.

 Grin  Oh man ... I almost fell off the couch laughing at that one!  Thankfully I was not drinking coffee when I read it!  That was priceless!  Where's my Confederate Battle Ensign when I need it?  Wink
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« Reply #42 on: November 13, 2007, 10:49:53 AM »

SouthSerb99, fair enough but I was being completely serious about Australia.

On your war though, I've seen a Landmark Baptist site which has a whole section on why the South should separate from the Union!

Nice to see disestablishmentarianism at work amongst them isn't it?!
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« Reply #43 on: November 13, 2007, 11:56:03 AM »

Didymus... I'm just razzing the southerners (like Veniamin).  My kid is not even in preschool yet, but he's probably already locked and loaded, ready to take me out in defense of the South!!! LOL

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« Reply #44 on: November 13, 2007, 03:27:14 PM »

I'm happy to be on the old calendar!  Smiley
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« Reply #45 on: November 13, 2007, 04:19:48 PM »

To get back to the OP, my priest always allows us to break the fast for one day for Thanksgiving. He and his family, however, have their own tradition of eating lobster on that day. They started this when they were Lutherans, long before they knew about the Nativity Fast.
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« Reply #46 on: November 13, 2007, 04:26:42 PM »

Normally our family tradition is Mongolian beef and homemade potstickers.

We won't be observing the Nativity fast on Thanksgiving.

Although it is going to be quite strange in the future when my husband is the only one able to observe teh fast. He is absolutely fine with it. But it makes me feel strange. As I mentioned before; out of the last 7 years there would have only been about 2mths when I would have been able to fast according to the guidelines (pregnant and/or breastfeeding). And with the arrival of more children in the future (Lord willing, we certainly HOPE SO), I imagine it will be some time before I can observe the fast in the future.
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« Reply #47 on: November 13, 2007, 04:36:20 PM »

Regarding the OT -- the OCA Diocese of the South (and I think the whole church) has observed a dispensation to eat w/the family for years, now, afaik.  So that meal will be normal, but it'll be hard to pass up on the leftovers.

Now, about that song...

Oh... and the songs they sing...

Yes, we'll rally round the flag, boys, we'll rally once again,
    Shouting the battle cry of Freedom,
We will rally from the hillside, we'll gather from the plain,
Shouting the battle cry of Freedom.

(Chorus)
The Union forever,
Hurrah! boys, hurrah!
Down with the traitors,
Up with the stars,

Ahem....   angel

We much prefer this 'un:

Quote
Our flag is proudly floating on the land and on the main,
Shout, shout the battle cry of Freedom!
Beneath it oft we've conquered, and we'll conquer oft again!
Shout, shout the battle cry of Freedom!

(Chorus)
Our Dixie forever! She's never at a loss!
Down with the eagle and up with the cross!
We'll rally 'round the bonny flag, we'll rally once again,
Shout, shout the battle cry of Freedom!

Our gallant boys have marched to the rolling of the drums.
Shout, shout the battle cry of Freedom!
And the leaders in charge cry out, "Come, boys, come!"
Shout, shout the battle cry of Freedom!--

Chorus

They have laid down their lives on the bloody battle field.
Shout, shout the battle cry of Freedom!
Their motto is resistance -- "To the tyrants never yield!"
Shout, shout the battle cry of Freedom!--

Capitulation, my...!   Wink
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« Reply #48 on: November 13, 2007, 05:37:40 PM »

Normally our family tradition is Mongolian beef and homemade potstickers.

We won't be observing the Nativity fast on Thanksgiving.

Although it is going to be quite strange in the future when my husband is the only one able to observe teh fast. He is absolutely fine with it. But it makes me feel strange. As I mentioned before; out of the last 7 years there would have only been about 2mths when I would have been able to fast according to the guidelines (pregnant and/or breastfeeding). And with the arrival of more children in the future (Lord willing, we certainly HOPE SO), I imagine it will be some time before I can observe the fast in the future.
Oh, you've been fasting all right. I saw what my wife was able to eat over the last nine months, and I can say with all certainty that pregnancy is in itself a fast. Enjoy Thanksgiving; it really is still a wonderful holiday.
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« Reply #49 on: November 13, 2007, 05:42:48 PM »

Oh, you've been fasting all right. I saw what my wife was able to eat over the last nine months, and I can say with all certainty that pregnancy is in itself a fast. Enjoy Thanksgiving; it really is still a wonderful holiday.

When you factor in the foods I have to avoid while being my childs cafeteria I have to avoid quite a few foods; dairy, soy, nuts, broccoli, garlic, onions, chocolate Angry and anything spicy (read-flavor) ect. So the concept of fasting from foods isn't foreign to me. EVERYDAY is a dairy free day in this house! Grin
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« Reply #50 on: November 13, 2007, 08:02:34 PM »

I'm interested in why no one mentioned this.

You are going to a non-Orthodox household for a dinner.  Much material exists to explain that sentence.
Remember we are supposed to hide our fasting, and not tell the public, for the reward from God is greater than the reward from man.  It would be more imposing to try to assert or make a spectacle at a mixed gathering.  If it were a total Orthodox gathering with the minority being non-Orthodox, then you could go full out.  But since you are visiting a non-Orthodox household for the dinner we were taught that it is better to accept their food and not mention your fasting at all.  What is worse, breaking the fast by pride of telling everyone you are fasting or keeping the fast in your heart that day while you keep the fact that you are fasting quiet?  I hope I am making sense.  And remember fasting doesn't mean anything if it is done just to meet the "legal requirements (think how the pharisees held the law).  The best thing to do would just go to the dinner and have everyone eat what is given by the host. 

  Fasting by inquirers can sometimes dishearten them greatly.  Fasting is a challenge.  To get the balance of pray and fasting just right takes time.  Many rookies keep legal and get sick, they over-fast, they don't know recipes to keep a balanced diet during fast times (mostly great-fast).  Ease into things.  Talk to your priest.
Don't be afraid to call him about this either!  Orthodox priests are close to their congregations and inquirers and welcome calls like this fasting question.  I wouldn't email him this question as you can't get the same amount of instruction via email as you could over the phone or if you can set up a 30 minute meeting at his office.
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« Reply #51 on: November 13, 2007, 09:16:51 PM »

Great post username; alot of excellent advice.

I would echo his advice: regardless of Thanksgiving or not, don't rush headlong into a strict fast; work your way into over a few years
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« Reply #52 on: November 14, 2007, 01:28:08 AM »

One thing from which you CAN and should fast, even during the Thanksgiving dinner, and that's from gluttony.  Don't make yourself as stuffed as the bird you just ate.
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« Reply #53 on: October 13, 2011, 02:53:13 AM »

I can't remember where I heard this but it is true, Orthodox Americans typically break from the fast for Thanksgiving?
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« Reply #54 on: October 13, 2011, 04:13:07 AM »

One priest told me that he tells his parishioners to, in honor of the old calendar.
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« Reply #55 on: October 13, 2011, 09:59:16 AM »

I'm reasonably certain that GOA Archbishop Demetrios has done so, and I know that Archbishop Dmitri, of blessed memory, did so for the Diocese of the South (OCA). I don't know about other jurisdictions. Our own priest has directed us to observe Thanksgiving in the traditional American manner with family and friends and to resume the fast on Friday, bringing any leftover non-fasting food to the church for use in our food program for the homeless.
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« Reply #56 on: October 13, 2011, 10:25:44 AM »

For us on the old calendar, it is not an issue, because it is not a fast day
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« Reply #57 on: October 13, 2011, 11:58:25 AM »

I'm in the OCA Diocese of the Midwest and we are given a blessing to celebrate Thanksgiving and we are new calendar.
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« Reply #58 on: October 15, 2011, 06:15:20 PM »

As long as I've been Orthodox I've been in the OCA diocese of the South, and we've always broken the fast for Thanksgiving. The reason that I was given is because it is the only secular holiday specifically set aside for the giving of thanks, and is thus Eucharistic at its core.
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« Reply #59 on: October 15, 2011, 06:35:10 PM »

As long as I've been Orthodox I've been in the OCA diocese of the South, and we've always broken the fast for Thanksgiving. The reason that I was given is because it is the only secular holiday specifically set aside for the giving of thanks, and is thus Eucharistic at its core.

Good reason: Breaking bread together in thanksgiving.
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« Reply #60 on: October 15, 2011, 10:28:36 PM »

Some other countries have a similar holiday, at different times of the year. I wonder if they get to go non-fast too. I think it would be all right, as long as they resume any necessary fast once the holiday is over.
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« Reply #61 on: October 16, 2011, 12:17:10 AM »

The Holy Synod of Bishops of the Orthodox Church in America (OCA) has given a blessing for all the faithful to keep the fullness of the Thanksgiving feast. It is a tradition in many parishes to remember the day liturgically.

I know that my parish has always, on Wednesday evening, served Vespers and has Orthodoxy 101 (the usual Wednesday activities) and then Small Compline (which we always do during the Nativity fast) but insert the Akathist of Thanksgiving (Glory to God for All Things). On Thursday morning (Thanksgiving Day), we celebrate the Divine Liturgy.
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« Reply #62 on: October 17, 2011, 01:17:05 AM »

In our parish (and some others I'm aware of), we do not have a blessing to break the fast completely, but we do have a blessing to have fish that day (like with other feast days held during a fast).  We also have a liturgy that day.  We're celebrating Thanksgiving together as a parish the Sunday before the fast -- complete with turkey, buttery mashed potatoes, pecan pie, etc.
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« Reply #63 on: October 18, 2011, 08:25:52 PM »

My parish's calendar doesn't have Thanksgiving marked a a fast day.
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« Reply #64 on: October 19, 2011, 09:04:25 PM »

The Holy Synod of Bishops of the Orthodox Church in America (OCA) has given a blessing for all the faithful to keep the fullness of the Thanksgiving feast. It is a tradition in many parishes to remember the day liturgically.

I know that my parish has always, on Wednesday evening, served Vespers and has Orthodoxy 101 (the usual Wednesday activities) and then Small Compline (which we always do during the Nativity fast) but insert the Akathist of Thanksgiving (Glory to God for All Things). On Thursday morning (Thanksgiving Day), we celebrate the Divine Liturgy.

We have always done the same as well in ACROD.
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« Reply #65 on: October 20, 2011, 06:17:33 PM »

When President Lincoln first instituted Thanksgiving, it was as a day of fasting.
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« Reply #66 on: October 31, 2011, 05:33:54 PM »

It's safe to break the fast until your turkey's all gone. Hah. Get a small turkey.
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« Reply #67 on: October 31, 2011, 05:45:58 PM »

When President Lincoln first instituted Thanksgiving, it was as a day of fasting.

This is sorta vague.

It is more in Lincoln's shadow that Thanksgiving became a regular holiday of celebration.

Thanksgiving Days were puritanically penitential for the most part prior the tradition that grew out of a Country coming to grips with a Civil War.
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« Reply #68 on: October 31, 2011, 05:53:57 PM »

It's safe to break the fast until your turkey's all gone. Hah. Get a small turkey.
My priest did make it a point to tell us not to try getting away with buying three turkeys and having to finish all the leftovers because there's no room in the freezer!  Grin
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« Reply #69 on: October 31, 2011, 07:46:56 PM »

One priest told me that he tells his parishioners to, in honor of the old calendar.

Wow!  Shocked

I never thought I'd hear such answers from the Orthodox. I guess being a Copt is really different from... what are you guys again? Greek Orthodox?
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« Reply #70 on: November 01, 2011, 09:29:00 PM »

My parish's calendar doesn't have Thanksgiving marked a a fast day.
This is my experience as an Antiochian as well.

EDIT: But, truth be told, I will be spending Thanksgiving with my non-Orthodox parents and brothers (two of whom I haven't seen in a couple of years), and I would eat whatever was served even if the the fast wasn't relaxed. Seconds, too, probably.
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« Reply #71 on: November 01, 2011, 09:43:00 PM »

One priest told me that he tells his parishioners to, in honor of the old calendar.

Wow!  Shocked

I never thought I'd hear such answers from the Orthodox. I guess being a Copt is really different from... what are you guys again? Greek Orthodox?

What is being implied here?
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« Reply #72 on: November 01, 2011, 09:44:42 PM »

.

EDIT: But, truth be told, I will be spending Thanksgiving with my non-Orthodox parents and brothers (two of whom I haven't seen in a couple of years), and I would eat whatever was served even if the the fast wasn't relaxed. Seconds, too, probably.
In the spirit of "not going to lie," I'm going to join this bandwagon.

I need a lot of work, clearly.
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« Reply #73 on: November 01, 2011, 09:47:13 PM »

.

EDIT: But, truth be told, I will be spending Thanksgiving with my non-Orthodox parents and brothers (two of whom I haven't seen in a couple of years), and I would eat whatever was served even if the the fast wasn't relaxed. Seconds, too, probably.
In the spirit of "not going to lie," I'm going to join this bandwagon.

I need a lot of work, clearly.

I think many of the desert fathers are with you, actually.

The fast begins again the moment you leave your host's table.
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« Reply #74 on: November 01, 2011, 09:51:46 PM »

I would think that helping myself to a heaping plate of seconds would get a raised eyebrow from a Desert Father or two!
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« Reply #75 on: November 01, 2011, 09:57:21 PM »

I would think that helping myself to a heaping plate of seconds would get a raised eyebrow from a Desert Father or two!

It is all about not bringing offence to your host and disharmony to the interaction.

You can fast doubly strictly later when the feelings of others are not at risk of harm.

Obviously this principle should not be used as an excuse for gluttony, but denying family members the opportunity to show their love for you (with food) in order to maintain an unbroken fast is also spiritually dangerous.
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« Reply #76 on: November 01, 2011, 09:58:23 PM »

Not to answer for TITL, but I know from past discussions with Copts that there is some disagreement on how to handle "American Thanksgiving", since it is during a fast and likewise not a native holiday for the majority of the people in the Coptic church (ethnic Egyptians). I don't think anything bad is implied in being surprised...it's not really something they've had to deal with for the majority of their nearly 2000 years of being a church. (And I'm working on trying to make the point among them that for some of us in the church it is a native holiday, and we can celebrate it in accordance with the principles we are told to follow in such circumstances, not to make the Orthodox church something that it isn't but because as converts we generally don't come from Orthodox families.)

One priest told me that he tells his parishioners to, in honor of the old calendar.

Wow!  Shocked

I never thought I'd hear such answers from the Orthodox. I guess being a Copt is really different from... what are you guys again? Greek Orthodox?

What is being implied here?
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« Reply #77 on: November 01, 2011, 10:00:57 PM »

I would think that helping myself to a heaping plate of seconds would get a raised eyebrow from a Desert Father or two!

It is all about not bringing offence to your host and disharmony to the interaction.

You can fast doubly strictly later when the feelings of others are not at risk of harm.

Obviously this principle should not be used as an excuse for gluttony, but denying family members the opportunity to show their love for you (with food) in order to maintain an unbroken fast is also spiritually dangerous.
I do agree with you, Akimori. I am being more cheeky than anything else. Sorry about that. Smiley

My husband and I first learned our lesson when we repeatedly (politely) refused a chicken dish at the house of a family in our church. They were beyond confused and probably offended, and I wish we hadn't done that.
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« Reply #78 on: November 01, 2011, 10:10:42 PM »

I just thought God comes first, then native holidays.

Which is to say fasting is more important than eating turkey.
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« Reply #79 on: November 01, 2011, 10:29:39 PM »

I would contend (and I am not trying to be inflammatory or upsetting) that offending your brother by putting your fast before his feelings is, perversely, putting God second.

I also think the desert fathers have my back on this one, if what I'm saying is properly applied.
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« Reply #80 on: November 01, 2011, 10:31:04 PM »

I would think that helping myself to a heaping plate of seconds would get a raised eyebrow from a Desert Father or two!

It is all about not bringing offence to your host and disharmony to the interaction.

You can fast doubly strictly later when the feelings of others are not at risk of harm.

Obviously this principle should not be used as an excuse for gluttony, but denying family members the opportunity to show their love for you (with food) in order to maintain an unbroken fast is also spiritually dangerous.
I do agree with you, Akimori. I am being more cheeky than anything else. Sorry about that. Smiley

My husband and I first learned our lesson when we repeatedly (politely) refused a chicken dish at the house of a family in our church. They were beyond confused and probably offended, and I wish we hadn't done that.

Yeah, it's this sort of thing that I am talking about.
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« Reply #81 on: November 01, 2011, 10:48:18 PM »

What if it would offend my brother if I didn't put wine on the table with every meal?

Should I destroy myself and be a stumbling block for him, or teach him what's right and abide by my own rules (fasting vs. not fasting)?
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« Reply #82 on: November 01, 2011, 10:53:48 PM »

What if it would offend my brother if I didn't put wine on the table with every meal?

Should I destroy myself and be a stumbling block for him, or teach him what's right and abide by my own rules (fasting vs. not fasting)?

Good questions, I think.

It seems to me that in your own house, your guests should keep whatever fast it is you keep. In the house of another, the duty to accept hospitality comes before your own fast, which you may enforce doubly strictly once you leave your host's table.

If your host knows about your fast and makes an effort to accommodate it, all the better.

The fast is for our own benefit, after all. Both the fast and accepting the charity of one's neighbour are ways of glorifying God.
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« Reply #83 on: November 01, 2011, 10:58:10 PM »

I don't see how cooking beans instead of chicken for my neighbor will offend him?

A vegetarian, non religious, person will do no different than a person fasting.

I don't think it's right for me to break the fast when inviting guests, unless they're allergic to all vegan products...

If I were the guest, I wouldn't mind eating meat on fasting days. But that's something else.
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« Reply #84 on: November 01, 2011, 10:59:26 PM »

I don't see how cooking beans instead of chicken for my neighbor will offend him?

A vegetarian, non religious, person will do no different than a person fasting.

I don't think it's right for me to break the fast when inviting guests, unless they're allergic to all vegan products...

If I were the guest, I wouldn't mind eating meat on fasting days. But that's something else.

Actually, I'm in complete agreement with you. I'm sorry if I have given the wrong impression. I think we are both conflating multiple posts.

I am only talking about the situation of being someone else's guest (I think this is what Liora and Agabus were saying?).
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« Reply #85 on: November 03, 2011, 12:27:58 AM »

It seems maybe we're a little too concerned with "don't want to offend the host" if that's the only reason for breaking the fast.  I know a wide variety of people and can't think of a one that would be offended if I took mashed potatoes, roasted vegies, jello, cranberries, bread and apple pie, but no turkey.  We don't have to take some of everything, you know?  We don't have to call attention to what we're doing or that we're not going to eat animal products.  We can just go and love on people and enjoy and talk and laugh and hug and encourage and listen -- and not take turkey.  

(I'm not addressing the issue of people having a blessing to feast on this day.)
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« Reply #86 on: November 03, 2011, 01:37:48 AM »

I've only been Orthodox for a little over a year so I am not that familiar with everything yet, but it seems to me that the parishes I have been apart of gave a blessing to break the fast for Thanksgiving. I try not to eat a whole lot so I can still keep the spirit of the fast and not gorge myself on food, but that is a lost cause when I am with my in-laws who always try to make me eat more food; I literally have to tell them countless times that I am full and don't want any more food before they offer three more times... Such is life.
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« Reply #87 on: November 03, 2011, 11:30:51 PM »

I think I remember seeing in this thread http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,13332.0.html that the Antiochian Orthodox Church of North America has a dispensation to break the fast for that day. If I'm reading it wrong, of course, correct me.
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« Reply #88 on: November 04, 2011, 04:41:24 AM »

One thing from which you CAN and should fast, even during the Thanksgiving dinner, and that's from gluttony.  Don't make yourself as stuffed as the bird you just ate.
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« Reply #89 on: November 04, 2011, 09:28:17 AM »

I think I remember seeing in this thread http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,13332.0.html that the Antiochian Orthodox Church of North America has a dispensation to break the fast for that day. If I'm reading it wrong, of course, correct me.

Likewise over the years for the New Calendar parishes of ACROD, and all of us when Thanksgiving is at its latest dates in November. Peter the Aleut's advice about fasting from GLUTTONY at the table is well taken and one that I have likewise heard over the years from our priests!
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« Reply #90 on: November 04, 2011, 09:56:20 AM »

I know a wide variety of people and can't think of a one that would be offended if I took mashed potatoes, roasted vegies, jello, cranberries, bread and apple pie, but no turkey.

FWIW, Jello is an animal product. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gelatin#Production

I agree with your post though. There is usually a lot of food you can eat without going for meat.
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« Reply #91 on: November 04, 2011, 11:25:43 AM »

I do not think there is a one size fits all rule about this. Fasting is a personal activity. True, we do it in the communion of the Church, but we do it for ourselves. As in the readings we have right before Great lent, we may not want to do anything that may cause our “brothers” to “stumble”, we also do not want to be hypocritical.    

When we choose to break the fast on a National Holiday, a feast based on gathering together with our family and friends, to thank God for all He has done for us, and to partake in what He has given us, we  should think about why we would choose to break our fast.

I my case, the Thanksgiving Day meal have always been a “big” family tradition.  (Family reunion big) Of course, in the old days, the fast did not start until after Thanksgiving. We look forward all year to this annual family get together.  The only other day that gathers us together like this is Pascha.  But Thanksgiving dose not find us up all night in different parishes, it is a more relaxing get together.  

The day, for us, is not just about the food, it is about a Joyous Family Tradition, a tradition that conflicts with the calendar of the Church and the choice is not trivial. But the Church does give this advice:
Quote
At all times, however, it is essential to bear in mind that you are not under law but under grace (Rom. 6:14), and that the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life (2 Cor. 3:6). The fasting rules, while they do need to be taken seriously, are not to be interpreted with the strict legalism of the Pharisees of Holy Scripture, for the kingdom of God is not food and drink, but righteousness and peace and joy in the Holy Spirit (Rom.14:17).
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« Reply #92 on: November 04, 2011, 01:55:08 PM »

I do not think there is a one size fits all rule about this. Fasting is a personal activity. True, we do it in the communion of the Church, but we do it for ourselves. As in the readings we have right before Great lent, we may not want to do anything that may cause our “brothers” to “stumble”, we also do not want to be hypocritical.    

When we choose to break the fast on a National Holiday, a feast based on gathering together with our family and friends, to thank God for all He has done for us, and to partake in what He has given us, we  should think about why we would choose to break our fast.


Granted, but there are several jurisdictions and Hierarchs, as well as parish priests, who have offered guidance on this issue, and have given the blessing to observe Thanksgiving. So it is not just a personal choice or idiosyncracy.

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« Reply #93 on: November 04, 2011, 02:14:08 PM »

I do not think there is a one size fits all rule about this. Fasting is a personal activity. True, we do it in the communion of the Church, but we do it for ourselves. As in the readings we have right before Great lent, we may not want to do anything that may cause our “brothers” to “stumble”, we also do not want to be hypocritical.    

When we choose to break the fast on a National Holiday, a feast based on gathering together with our family and friends, to thank God for all He has done for us, and to partake in what He has given us, we  should think about why we would choose to break our fast.


Granted, but there are several jurisdictions and Hierarchs, as well as parish priests, who have offered guidance on this issue, and have given the blessing to observe Thanksgiving. So it is not just a personal choice or idiosyncracy.



Do you, or anyone, know of a Hierarch who instructed his flock not to observe Thanksgiving? (I'm asking about any new calendar Diocese).


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« Reply #94 on: November 04, 2011, 02:56:20 PM »

I wonder why given what I read in the other post I linked I  haven't been able to find any mention of this on the Antioochian Orthodox Church in America website?

Granted that thread was a couple years old, but then some posters above suggested the same. Hmm...

 But then again another suggested oppisite. Hmmm...
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« Reply #95 on: November 04, 2011, 05:30:07 PM »

I am the original poster. Wow! I wrote that when my 4 year old was still a baby!

A little clarity; Thanksgiving isn't entirely a "holiday" for our family for a variety of reasons. Thanksgiving is up there with Columbus Day for us. We talk about the day as seen thru modern eyes, then talk about the day as seen thru native eyes. It is and always will be more of a somber day for us than anything. We focus on being thankful, but the historical aspect isn't entirely happy for us.

We don't observe the fast for Thanksgiving. When I wrote the original post I was breast feeding. Now I am pregnant. So I have been forbidden to fast by our priest. Our Khouria is a midwife, if she found out a pregnant or nursing woman was fasting she would NOT be happy! LOL

Three of the four kids, and my husband can't fast for various health reasons as well. Fasting won't be possible for our family for awhile at this point.
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« Reply #96 on: November 05, 2011, 08:44:29 PM »



This shall be somewhat of the same spread that will be placed upon my table on Thanksgiving Day. 
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« Reply #97 on: November 05, 2011, 09:09:57 PM »


That looks wonderful!

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« Reply #98 on: November 05, 2011, 10:16:44 PM »



[/quote]

Do you, or anyone, know of a Hierarch who instructed his flock not to observe Thanksgiving? (I'm asking about any new calendar Diocese).



[/quote]

Yes.  A friend in WA has a priest who is only allowing fish for that day.  They are Antiochian.  
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« Reply #99 on: November 05, 2011, 10:30:01 PM »

Now seriously, back home none of the priests that I remember ever told us what we could eat and when. And that wasn't because people were just fasting anyways. 'cause most probably weren't. Can't help but roll my eyes or laugh (depending on my disposition) reading things like "our parish priest/spiritual father/clairvoyant protosyncellus gave us the blessing to eat turkey this day but we can't have the leftovers". LOL
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« Reply #100 on: November 05, 2011, 10:31:23 PM »

Now seriously, back home none of the priests that I remember ever told us what we could eat and when. And that wasn't because people were just fasting anyways. Can't help but roll my eyes or laugh (depending on my disposition) reading things like "our parish priest/spiritual father/clairvoyant protosyncellus gave us the blessing to eat turkey this day but we can't have the leftovers". LOL

Yeah, ok, we get it. Orthodoxy has lots of nominalism.
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« Reply #101 on: November 08, 2011, 12:56:31 AM »


Quote

Do you, or anyone, know of a Hierarch who instructed his flock not to observe Thanksgiving? (I'm asking about any new calendar Diocese).


Yes.  A friend in WA has a priest who is only allowing fish for that day.  They are Antiochian.  

That would be me.  We are Antiochian, in the diocese of the PNW and Eagle River, and our bishop, AFAIK, does not grant a break from the fast except maybe for fish.  I believe we can have fish that day just like when there's a feast day during/on another otherwise strict fast day (i.e., if our patronal feast day was on a Wednesday, we'd have fish). 
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« Reply #102 on: November 08, 2011, 02:56:57 AM »


Quote

Do you, or anyone, know of a Hierarch who instructed his flock not to observe Thanksgiving? (I'm asking about any new calendar Diocese).


Yes.  A friend in WA has a priest who is only allowing fish for that day.  They are Antiochian.  

That would be me.  We are Antiochian, in the diocese of the PNW and Eagle River, and our bishop, AFAIK, does not grant a break from the fast except maybe for fish.  I believe we can have fish that day just like when there's a feast day during/on another otherwise strict fast day (i.e., if our patronal feast day was on a Wednesday, we'd have fish). 

Bishop Joseph? Are you sure?
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« Reply #103 on: November 08, 2011, 03:04:29 AM »

Now seriously, back home none of the priests that I remember ever told us what we could eat and when. And that wasn't because people were just fasting anyways. 'cause most probably weren't. Can't help but roll my eyes or laugh (depending on my disposition) reading things like "our parish priest/spiritual father/clairvoyant protosyncellus gave us the blessing to eat turkey this day but we can't have the leftovers". LOL

Yeah, that is how it should be and that is how it is in my parish, no priest tells us what we could eat and when.  Fasting is to be done silently and without other people knowing.  And I'm sure people will say, "well that's not orthodox to have priests not tell you what to eat and when" but indeed, it is.  It's Pharisee-law stricken and hypocritical and cult like to tell your people what they can eat and when carte-blanche as a general announcement to the faithful, cults control how you live and focus on externals to gain the eternals, or like gnostics, the secrets are revealed to those who are more involved and perform the duties of the cult in order to obtain said secrets to obtain "heaven" or much like pagans who have good and bad and must sanctify themselves to be good again.
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« Reply #104 on: November 08, 2011, 03:10:29 AM »


Quote

Do you, or anyone, know of a Hierarch who instructed his flock not to observe Thanksgiving? (I'm asking about any new calendar Diocese).


Yes.  A friend in WA has a priest who is only allowing fish for that day.  They are Antiochian. 

That would be me.  We are Antiochian, in the diocese of the PNW and Eagle River, and our bishop, AFAIK, does not grant a break from the fast except maybe for fish.  I believe we can have fish that day just like when there's a feast day during/on another otherwise strict fast day (i.e., if our patronal feast day was on a Wednesday, we'd have fish). 

Nope, our priest is the archpriest for the area (Fr. A James Bernstein) and he told us that we are allowed to break the fast for Thanksgiving.
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« Reply #105 on: November 08, 2011, 03:12:31 AM »


Quote

Do you, or anyone, know of a Hierarch who instructed his flock not to observe Thanksgiving? (I'm asking about any new calendar Diocese).


Yes.  A friend in WA has a priest who is only allowing fish for that day.  They are Antiochian.  

That would be me.  We are Antiochian, in the diocese of the PNW and Eagle River, and our bishop, AFAIK, does not grant a break from the fast except maybe for fish.  I believe we can have fish that day just like when there's a feast day during/on another otherwise strict fast day (i.e., if our patronal feast day was on a Wednesday, we'd have fish).  

Nope, our priest is the archpriest for the area (Fr. A James Bernstein) and he told us that we are allowed to break the fast for Thanksgiving.
Maybe we're actually in the True Genuine Orthodox Butter-and-Bird Pilgrim Synod in Local Resistance Abroad, and we just don't know it.

"our parish priest/spiritual father/clairvoyant protosyncellus gave us the blessing to eat turkey this day but we can't have the leftovers".
Rofl.
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« Reply #106 on: November 08, 2011, 03:15:52 AM »

In fact, some folks I know call margarine "Pharisee Butter."  What's fasting if you talk to everyone about it while you are doing it? What's fasting when you replace a fast forbidden food with a similiar food, like margarine for butter?  
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« Reply #107 on: November 08, 2011, 03:17:24 AM »

In fact, some folks I know call margarine "Pharisee Butter."
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« Reply #108 on: November 08, 2011, 10:51:32 AM »

Yeah, that is how it should be and that is how it is in my parish, no priest tells us what we could eat and when.  Fasting is to be done silently and without other people knowing.  And I'm sure people will say, "well that's not orthodox to have priests not tell you what to eat and when" but indeed, it is.  It's Pharisee-law stricken and hypocritical and cult like to tell your people what they can eat and when carte-blanche as a general announcement to the faithful, cults control how you live and focus on externals to gain the eternals, or like gnostics, the secrets are revealed to those who are more involved and perform the duties of the cult in order to obtain said secrets to obtain "heaven" or much like pagans who have good and bad and must sanctify themselves to be good again.
+1
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« Reply #109 on: November 08, 2011, 12:32:23 PM »

So, what do you do if your priest(s) tell you something different from your Bishop and (supposedly) your Metropolitan?  Please be respectful in your replies, not cocky or sarcastic.  This is a sincere question. 
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« Reply #110 on: November 08, 2011, 12:35:55 PM »

So, what do you do if your priest(s) tell you something different from your Bishop and (supposedly) your Metropolitan?  Please be respectful in your replies, not cocky or sarcastic.  This is a sincere question. 
I'd ask your Priest to clarify his position and that you are confused because he and the Bishop are saying two different things. Maybe it's just a misunderstanding.

PP
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« Reply #111 on: November 08, 2011, 04:33:53 PM »

Now seriously, back home none of the priests that I remember ever told us what we could eat and when. And that wasn't because people were just fasting anyways. 'cause most probably weren't. Can't help but roll my eyes or laugh (depending on my disposition) reading things like "our parish priest/spiritual father/clairvoyant protosyncellus gave us the blessing to eat turkey this day but we can't have the leftovers". LOL

Yeah, that is how it should be and that is how it is in my parish, no priest tells us what we could eat and when.  Fasting is to be done silently and without other people knowing.  And I'm sure people will say, "well that's not orthodox to have priests not tell you what to eat and when" but indeed, it is.  It's Pharisee-law stricken and hypocritical and cult like to tell your people what they can eat and when carte-blanche as a general announcement to the faithful, cults control how you live and focus on externals to gain the eternals, or like gnostics, the secrets are revealed to those who are more involved and perform the duties of the cult in order to obtain said secrets to obtain "heaven" or much like pagans who have good and bad and must sanctify themselves to be good again.

Seriously? Pharasaical, law-stricken, hypocritical and cult-like for a priest to offer guidance to his flock? Or to communicate the guidance of their Bishop to the Faithful?
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« Reply #112 on: November 08, 2011, 04:38:23 PM »

Your priest should be asking my priest Wink To be fair Thanksgiving is always colored in as being a fast day because it is a fast day. It is just a fasting day where we are allowed to break the food aspect of the fast. The fasting of our spirit isn't to be broken. So it is a fasting day even though we are directed to break the food restrictions.

I think there is a very good chance that you are misunderstanding what your priest means. Yes, the Nativity Fast encompasses Thanksgiving. But it is the height of arrogance and the opposite of fasting to refuse to eat meat etc. at get togethers with friends and family because you are fasting. Our priest has told us that if we are served food during any fast that we are to eat it period . Fasting is about inward discipline, not outward adherence. Fasting from food isn't the most important part of the fast. If you are having a small immediate family Thanksgiving without any visitors you can observe the fast and eat fish if you like. If you are at some one else's house you should eat what it set before you.

I have found many, many church bulletins that mention that Metropolitan Philip has declared Thanksgiving fast free. If your priest really wants you to fast, then you should follow that guideline. I have seen the declaration from Met. PHILIP about thanksgiving before, but I just can't seem to find it at the moment.
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« Reply #113 on: November 08, 2011, 04:55:52 PM »

. But it is the height of arrogance and the opposite of fasting to refuse to eat meat etc. at get togethers with friends and family because you are fasting.

This is why I do nothing but sup' with heathens during any fasting period. //:=)

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« Reply #114 on: November 08, 2011, 10:09:10 PM »

Your priest should be asking my priest Wink To be fair Thanksgiving is always colored in as being a fast day because it is a fast day. It is just a fasting day where we are allowed to break the food aspect of the fast. The fasting of our spirit isn't to be broken. So it is a fasting day even though we are directed to break the food restrictions.

I think there is a very good chance that you are misunderstanding what your priest means. Yes, the Nativity Fast encompasses Thanksgiving. But it is the height of arrogance and the opposite of fasting to refuse to eat meat etc. at get togethers with friends and family because you are fasting. Our priest has told us that if we are served food during any fast that we are to eat it period . Fasting is about inward discipline, not outward adherence. Fasting from food isn't the most important part of the fast. If you are having a small immediate family Thanksgiving without any visitors you can observe the fast and eat fish if you like. If you are at some one else's house you should eat what it set before you.

I have found many, many church bulletins that mention that Metropolitan Philip has declared Thanksgiving fast free. If your priest really wants you to fast, then you should follow that guideline. I have seen the declaration from Met. PHILIP about thanksgiving before, but I just can't seem to find it at the moment.
Thanks Quinault, I was kinda wondering how those two seemingly different messages could be reconciled.   Smiley
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« Reply #115 on: November 09, 2011, 12:48:51 AM »

So, what do you do if your priest(s) tell you something different from your Bishop and (supposedly) your Metropolitan?  Please be respectful in your replies, not cocky or sarcastic.  This is a sincere question.  

Depends on what exactly he's telling you. Is your priest telling you, "OK, this is what the bishop says, but here's what I'm telling you, and why."

I used to know a priest who NEVER told his people what the traditional Orthodox fasting discipline was (convert parish). He'd just tell them "no meat, no dairy" and fish was OK on any fasting day. However, if you read a bit, you often found out what the traditional fasting discipline was. I once had a visitor, a catechumen from a stricter Orthodox tradition ask me what we did about oil. I started to explain to her, but the priest was nearby, heard both her question and me beginning to answer, and he shut me down so quickly that it made my head spin. He snarled that he never, ever wanted to hear me talking about oil again.

But this was also the same parish that if the bishop visited during a fasting period, you can be sure not a bit of fish was to be seen, unless the calendar indicated it was a fish day. Roll Eyes
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« Reply #116 on: November 09, 2011, 12:50:07 AM »

Your priest should be asking my priest Wink To be fair Thanksgiving is always colored in as being a fast day because it is a fast day. It is just a fasting day where we are allowed to break the food aspect of the fast. The fasting of our spirit isn't to be broken. So it is a fasting day even though we are directed to break the food restrictions.

I think there is a very good chance that you are misunderstanding what your priest means. Yes, the Nativity Fast encompasses Thanksgiving. But it is the height of arrogance and the opposite of fasting to refuse to eat meat etc. at get togethers with friends and family because you are fasting. Our priest has told us that if we are served food during any fast that we are to eat it period . Fasting is about inward discipline, not outward adherence. Fasting from food isn't the most important part of the fast. If you are having a small immediate family Thanksgiving without any visitors you can observe the fast and eat fish if you like. If you are at some one else's house you should eat what it set before you.

I have found many, many church bulletins that mention that Metropolitan Philip has declared Thanksgiving fast free. If your priest really wants you to fast, then you should follow that guideline. I have seen the declaration from Met. PHILIP about thanksgiving before, but I just can't seem to find it at the moment.
Thanks Quinault, I was kinda wondering how those two seemingly different messages could be reconciled.   Smiley

As I said above, Quinault also has the desert fathers on her side in this one.

It is not right to refuse a gift of food during a fast.
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« Reply #117 on: November 09, 2011, 01:14:46 AM »

Your priest should be asking my priest Wink

Our priests know each other quite well already.  I'm actually talking about two priests, by the way, in this line of questioning: the one that led us into the church and baptized us two years ago (and who hears my confession), and our new mission parish priest who arrived in the Spring (the first is the confessor/spiritual father of the second).  


Quote
I think there is a very good chance that you are misunderstanding what your priest means.

I don't think so. He (the first one) is quite clear.  The ideal is to not break the fast.  If you do (and yes, he has commented on eating what's put before you), don't receive the Eucharist that weekend.  I think this is where I get frustrated.  Yes, we maybe we can have fish or even break the fast if we choose to do so -- but we can't receive the Eucharist in that situation.  It's a hard choice to make, you know?  Does anyone else have this as part of breaking the fast?  (No Eucharist that coming weekend.) I love our priest dearly, and appreciate the love he's shown for me/us.  I respect him but do get confused, I admit.  Lord have mercy.  

Quote
I have found many, many church bulletins that mention that Metropolitan Philip has declared Thanksgiving fast free. If your priest really wants you to fast, then you should follow that guideline. I have seen the declaration from Met. PHILIP about thanksgiving before, but I just can't seem to find it at the moment.

I really feel like I can ask the second priest mentioned above (our new mission priest) about this, although the first priest is still my confessor at this point.
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« Reply #118 on: November 09, 2011, 01:29:35 AM »

Are both priests Antiochian? If they aren't, then that could be part of the issue. Fr. James doesn't require people that don't adhere to the Nativity fast on Thanksgiving to abstain from communion. Now, if you eat after midnight the night before communion and you aren't exempt from the fast then you do have to abstain from the fast.

I personally couldn't have adhered to the fast for the last decade. I have been nursing and or pregnant since Jan 2001. (4, soon to be 5 children born since 2001 that all nursed for an extended period of time) If our Khouria found out I even TRIED to fast she would be VERY upset and instruct me not to fast.

The abstaining from certain foods during "a fast" isn't the same as abstaining from food/drink before communing.
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« Reply #119 on: November 09, 2011, 02:02:10 AM »

Are both priests Antiochian?

Yes, both are long-time Antiochian priests.  I know the first would have us abstain from communion, I don't know about the second.  It can be pretty confusing to have a parish priest and a different confessor/spiritual father.  This situation will rectify itself over time (long term goal is to come under the parish priest), but for now the first priest is helping me through some issues (plus two of our children would like to continue confessing with him). 
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« Reply #120 on: November 09, 2011, 10:19:30 AM »

One of the difficulties (and one of the best things about Orthodoxy, I think) is that the response to questions is often pastoral in nature, taking into account the individual situation and what is best for that particular person (or even group) spiritually. Thus you can have situations where on the surface it seems as if priests are contradicting one another.
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« Reply #121 on: November 09, 2011, 11:11:24 AM »

What does "Khouria" mean?
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« Reply #122 on: November 09, 2011, 11:20:05 AM »

What does "Khouria" mean?
Priest's wife.

It is synonymous with the Russian Matushka  and the Greek Presbytera.
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« Reply #123 on: November 09, 2011, 11:53:53 AM »

What does "Khouria" mean?
Priest's wife.

It is synonymous with the Russian Matushka  and the Greek Presbytera.
Is this version specific to the Antiochian Church then? Also if I may how is it pronounced?
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« Reply #124 on: November 09, 2011, 02:57:56 PM »

Khouria= sounds like core-ree-ah

I believe it is a title exclusively used by the Antiochians.
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« Reply #125 on: November 09, 2011, 08:01:46 PM »

Khouria= sounds like core-ree-ah

I believe it is a title exclusively used by the Antiochians.

Yes, because it's root is khoury (koor-ee), which is priest in Arabic.
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« Reply #126 on: November 09, 2011, 08:37:47 PM »

Isn't it pronounced "choureya", beginning with خ in arabic?
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« Reply #127 on: November 09, 2011, 08:48:05 PM »

Isn't it pronounced "choureya", beginning with خ in arabic?
yes.
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« Reply #128 on: November 09, 2011, 10:41:18 PM »

I don't think so. He (the first one) is quite clear.  The ideal is to not break the fast.  If you do (and yes, he has commented on eating what's put before you), don't receive the Eucharist that weekend.  I think this is where I get frustrated.  Yes, we maybe we can have fish or even break the fast if we choose to do so -- but we can't receive the Eucharist in that situation.  It's a hard choice to make, you know?  Does anyone else have this as part of breaking the fast?  (No Eucharist that coming weekend.) I love our priest dearly, and appreciate the love he's shown for me/us.  I respect him but do get confused, I admit.  Lord have mercy.  
I can't speak for everyone, but no. Frankly, I don't understand a pastor withholding the Mysteries because someone's grandmother served them mac-and-cheese, and they -- like decent people -- ate what they were given.

But I don't have a say in the situation, and I am not in such a one. Follow your conscience, I guess.
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