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Author Topic: A little help and advice in regargs to thanksgiving  (Read 14259 times) Average Rating: 0
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Quinault
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« on: November 12, 2007, 05:04:24 PM »

My family is in the process of converting to Eastern Orthodoxy. We have three kids-6, 2, and 5mths. I am still the sole source of food for out 5mth old.

We are going to have Thanksgiving meal at my in-laws this year. This is our first year trying to observe the nativity fast. We are planning to bring some cedar planked salmon for the meal. My question is this; I know that the kids and I are not supposed to participate in a strict fast. But I don't exactly want my husband to be the only one observing the fast either. Does fasting from dairy only mean cow dairy? Are sheep cheeses ok?
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« Reply #1 on: November 12, 2007, 05:10:25 PM »

The 22nd is not a fast day.  Nativity fast begins the following week.
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« Reply #2 on: November 12, 2007, 05:14:50 PM »

Really? I was told it begins on the 15th

http://orthodoxwiki.org/Nativity

http://www.goarch.org/en/chapel/calendar.asp?Y=2007&M=11

Did I misunderstand?
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« Reply #3 on: November 12, 2007, 05:17:20 PM »

Old calendar vs. New Calendar
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« Reply #4 on: November 12, 2007, 05:19:47 PM »

Doh!!!  New calanderists!!! LOL

My apologies.

I'm Serbian Orthodox, we follow the Julian calendar.  Hence, I'll be stuffing my pie hole with big bird!!!  

Well then... to answer your question more specifically, I would go with a modified menu for you and the kids.  As far as I know, dairy means dairy (but again, I'm Serbian and we tend to be more strict than most).  The only exception on the dairy end is soy milk or some derivative thereof.
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« Reply #5 on: November 12, 2007, 05:20:22 PM »

Old calendar vs. New Calendar

You beat me to the punch, old and wise one.  Wink
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« Reply #6 on: November 12, 2007, 05:35:53 PM »

You beat me to the punch, old and wise one.  Wink

Well, you got one of those right.  Wink
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« Reply #7 on: November 12, 2007, 05:38:06 PM »

Quinalt--

Which jurisdiction are you entering?

Are you in the Greek Archdiocese? If so, we have a dispensation from the Archbishop to celebrate Thanksgiving as the 'Americans' do---that is, until Holy Orthodoxy becomes the majority fath, and we move Thanksgiving to be closer to Canadian thanksgiving.

I am unsure of this, but I thought the Antiochians also may be allowed to break the fast just on this day.

Of course, you should always 'Talk To Your Priest' to determine what he thinks is best...
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« Reply #8 on: November 12, 2007, 05:40:47 PM »

FrChris; We are inquirers at an Antiochian parish. Unfortunatly our inquirers/catechumen class is canceled for the next two weeks. And the thoughts about Thanksgiving didn't occur to us until now. Roll Eyes
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« Reply #9 on: November 12, 2007, 05:43:14 PM »

Quinalt---we have several Antiochian posters here...I'm sure one (or, more likely, all of them!) will be weighing in on this topic!  Wink
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« Reply #10 on: November 12, 2007, 08:28:57 PM »

^^ Great avatar, btw, Quinalt!

Where'd ya find it?
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« Reply #11 on: November 12, 2007, 08:29:39 PM »

Quinalt---we have several Antiochian posters here...I'm sure one (or, more likely, all of them!) will be weighing in on this topic!  Wink

Yes.  So I'll open my pie hole (before stuffing the big bird in).

Yes, there is a dispensation for the Thanksgiving holiday.  From Metropolitan Philip on down we are quite adament about it, for the simple reason that making an issue of the fast on the Thanksgiving holiday would violate the rules of hospitality, needlessly break the cardinal rule of charity, become a scandal for the non-Orthodox family members (a reality for a majority here I believe) as Pharisaic, etc., etc., etc.   Given the context of America right now, breaking the fast on Thanksgiving would be keeping it, spirit not letter.

But the day after, back to the fast.  God gave us freezers for that purpose.

Of course, as Fr Chris pointed out, we convert the country and solve the problem, and more weighty ones.

As you're going to an Antiochean parish, I'll tell you that turkey in Arabic is "diik ruumi" which can be translated "[Eastern] Orthodox Rooster."  so dig in.

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« Reply #12 on: November 12, 2007, 08:32:10 PM »


As you're going to an Antiochean parish, I'll tell you that turkey in Arabic is "diik ruumi" which can be translated "[Eastern] Orthodox Rooster."  so dig in.


Now, that is interesting! I took a year of Arabic at Holy Cross, and we never got to that lesson...

probably because the turkey is rarely mentioned in the Liturgy  Wink !
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« Reply #13 on: November 12, 2007, 08:58:20 PM »

Now, that is interesting! I took a year of Arabic at Holy Cross, and we never got to that lesson...

probably because the turkey is rarely mentioned in the Liturgy  Wink !

Or because of the Zionists: I just found out, much to my suprise, that the citizens of the regime in Tel Aviv are the largest consumers of turkey in the world.  For what reason, I have no idea.

As I remember, turkey comes from a Jewish-Sephardi term for peacock, they had no idea what else to call it.  The links of trade between the Christians, Greeks, etc. in the Ottoman empire (over all of us at the time) with the Europeans who were importing from the New World, btw, is how the Arabic term arose.
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« Reply #14 on: November 12, 2007, 09:10:36 PM »

^^ Great avatar, btw, Quinalt!

Where'd ya find it?

It is NW american indian art. I needed a cool raven to use and I found <---- and have used it as an avatar for years now. People rarely remember my username, or even my first name (Shalom) but they always remember my avatar. (and no, despite the name I am NOT Jewish. I am an american indian with a VERY Jewish name).

http://209.206.175.157/
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« Reply #15 on: November 12, 2007, 09:12:49 PM »

Yes.  So I'll open my pie hole (before stuffing the big bird in).

Yes, there is a dispensation for the Thanksgiving holiday.  From Metropolitan Philip on down we are quite adament about it, for the simple reason that making an issue of the fast on the Thanksgiving holiday would violate the rules of hospitality, needlessly break the cardinal rule of charity, become a scandal for the non-Orthodox family members (a reality for a majority here I believe) as Pharisaic, etc., etc., etc.   Given the context of America right now, breaking the fast on Thanksgiving would be keeping it, spirit not letter.

But the day after, back to the fast.  God gave us freezers for that purpose.

Of course, as Fr Chris pointed out, we convert the country and solve the problem, and more weighty ones.

As you're going to an Antiochean parish, I'll tell you that turkey in Arabic is "diik ruumi" which can be translated "[Eastern] Orthodox Rooster."  so dig in.



Thank you very much for the information. Ironically my staunch Baptist inlaws are pumping us for information about Eastern Orthdoxy. It is kind of cool actually. As of yet thou my staunchly pentacostal family are keeping their distance from the orthodox conversation.
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« Reply #16 on: November 12, 2007, 09:14:33 PM »

FrChris; We are inquirers at an Antiochian parish. Unfortunatly our inquirers/catechumen class is canceled for the next two weeks. And the thoughts about Thanksgiving didn't occur to us until now. Roll Eyes

It is my understanding that as an inquirer, fasting is not required.  Most especially for you as a nursing Mom and your children.  Additionally, even as a new convert many priests do not require following the full fast the first year but ease into it.  

It is a struggle of obedience and a battle against pride.  I would suggest you speak to your priest, but since you asked the group IMHO you ought not to fast at all.

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« Reply #17 on: November 12, 2007, 09:18:10 PM »

It is my understanding that as an inquirer, fasting is not required.  Most especially for you as a nursing Mom and your children.  Additionally, even as a new convert many priests do not require following the full fast the first year but ease into it.  

It is a struggle of obedience and a battle against pride.  I would suggest you speak to your priest, but since you asked the group IMHO you ought not to fast at all.

Athanasia

Mostly I was asking in regards to my husband. He wanted to do the fast this year. But we have the rest of our lives don't we? Grin So we will wait until next year. It is kinda funny, looking at the guidelines, out of the last 7+ years there would have only been aprox 2 mths I would have been able to observe the fast. I will have to find a middle ground for next year. I don't exactly want to make one small meal for my husband that adheres to the fast and then have everyone else chowing down on all the items he can't eat right in front of him.
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« Reply #18 on: November 12, 2007, 10:52:24 PM »

It is NW american indian art. I needed a cool raven to use and I found <---- and have used it as an avatar for years now. People rarely remember my username, or even my first name (Shalom) but they always remember my avatar. (and no, despite the name I am NOT Jewish. I am an american indian with a VERY Jewish name).

Don't tell that to the Mormons.  LOL. (I hear that genetics are forcing them to admit that the Amerindians aren't all the lost tribes).

What nation?  I'm interested in the amerindians finding Orthodoxy, like the Aleuts.

I missed the part about you nursing.  Then the answer is simple: NO FASTING FOR YOU.

As posted above, catechumens are eased into it.  My sons are already being trained (my oldest, 10, actually asked to start the Eucharist fast himself "so I can be hungry for Jesus like you Baba."  No reason for newbies to go cold turkey (oooops! did I say that? Tongue).

As for your Baptist inlaws, on our old haunt on ECF, someone posted the link to the baptist mission manual on the Orthodox, which has converted a number (of Baptists that is! angel) and some Orthodox have even used, I am told, as a catechism.  I am taking that your Pentacostal family, though cold to the Orthodoxy thing, haven't disowned you either.  Count your blessings: many have not been so lucky, and then, you never know: I've known of many who brought the whole family in.
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« Reply #19 on: November 12, 2007, 11:33:28 PM »

I am Yakima, Quinault and Nez Perce. My son has the coolest of american indian names; Ollokot. We waited years to have a boy to use that name on! I checked a book out from our local library about indian converts to Orthodoxy, it was called "Memory eternal" I think. It was fairly thick and looked really good. But I have about 10-15 other books on orthodoxy that I am working on currently, so that book will have to wait.

My kids call their father Baba too! In Lushootseed the name for father is "bad" (pronounced bahd) but Baba is daddy. So between that and my name we fit interestingly well into the Jewish districts here.
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« Reply #20 on: November 12, 2007, 11:50:49 PM »

When I was a member of an Antiochian parish we did not fast on Thanksgiving. Of course now I am a member of a jurisdiction that follows the Julian calendar so we'll be puttin' the feed bag on. We even have a dispensation for Friday so as to not waste the leftovers !  Tongue
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« Reply #21 on: November 12, 2007, 11:55:12 PM »

And I must apologize for my horrible typo in the subject line. It is driving ME nuts and I am the one that did it.

....regargs....bleh......
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« Reply #22 on: November 12, 2007, 11:57:10 PM »

I am Yakima, Quinault and Nez Perce. My son has the coolest of american indian names; Ollokot. We waited years to have a boy to use that name on! I checked a book out from our local library about indian converts to Orthodoxy, it was called "Memory eternal" I think. It was fairly thick and looked really good. But I have about 10-15 other books on orthodoxy that I am working on currently, so that book will have to wait.

My kids call their father Baba too! In Lushootseed the name for father is "bad" (pronounced bahd) but Baba is daddy. So between that and my name we fit interestingly well into the Jewish districts here.

Yes. My sons mother was (actually is, but we're divorced) Romanian: in Romanian baba means "grandmother."  In Arabic it means "daddy" (and "Pope!).  Oh, and btw, I am Hebrew on my mother's side.

What does Ollokot mean?

The nations you mention are all I believe far away from native turkey country.  Do you still have turkey for Thanksgiving.  You mentioned salmon I believe.  In which case things are easier because many Antiocheans allow fish during the Nativity Fast (in Alexandria that's the normal practice: Apostles Fast too).

Also, it is my understanding that the real impetus for the canonization of St. Herman, the patron of America (for ALL Orthodox) came from the veneration of the amerindians of him.
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« Reply #23 on: November 13, 2007, 12:00:29 AM »

And I must apologize for my horrible typo in the subject line. It is driving ME nuts and I am the one that did it.

....regargs....bleh......

21 posts and no one seemed to notice.  I wouldn't worry.

It's not the "i" in "homoiousios" (stick around these forums and you'll get the reference, if you don't already).
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« Reply #24 on: November 13, 2007, 12:05:34 AM »

A traditional for my tribes thanksgiving meal here would be pretty expensive; crab, clams, salmon, venison ect.

My husband on the other hand is an Iroquois/Jew mix. So he is where the turkey fits in. And since we are going to my in-laws for thansgiving there is sure to be turkey in abundance.

Ollokot means "little frog" he is a relation of mine. He was also Chief Joseph's brother and the war chief for the Nez Perce tribe. His middle name is Moshe, so he is a little frog born from the water Grin

http://www.u-s-history.com/pages/h3892.html
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« Reply #25 on: November 13, 2007, 12:12:33 AM »

I have read a bit about Saint Herman. And in my eldest daughters catechism class it is their patron saint for the group. The story of Saint Peter the Aleut is pretty amazing. I believe there is more information on him in the aforementioned book, but don't hold me to it.
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« Reply #26 on: November 13, 2007, 12:55:22 AM »

I have read a bit about Saint Herman. And in my eldest daughters catechism class it is their patron saint for the group. The story of Saint Peter the Aleut is pretty amazing. I believe there is more information on him in the aforementioned book, but don't hold me to it.
What book?  Maybe I'm blind, but I can't find where you mentioned this book with info on St. Peter the Aleut.  I'd be interested to know what info you have on him.  I'm as Western (and even a little Eastern) European as they get, but my sponsors gave me the Christian name Peter, after the Aleut martyr, when I was chrismated.  Hence, I have a Native American for my patron saint.
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« Reply #27 on: November 13, 2007, 01:15:43 AM »

Talk with your priest before deciding what to do. But.....

My opinion is that you are an American. This is an American feast day that is perhaps the last remaining holiday to have any vestige of its original intent: a day of feasting, sharing, enjoying cross-cultural (Indians and Englishmen, originally)  relationships and most of all, being thankful to God for the religious freedom that the original settlers found here and passed on to you so that you could make your free choice to become Orthodox almost 400 years later. That in itself is reason to celebrate the national holiday - not modestly and reluctantly, but with gusto! In the annals of human history that religious freedom is rather astonishing.

To take one day out of the Nativity fast to enjoy this American holiday is not going to disrupt your fast or your spiritual life. We aren't Roman Catholics - this isn't Church Law.
It is to help you, not enslave you.

Furthermore, you are going to your relatives to enjoy their hospitality, It would be rude to pick at the food or not eat it. Better not to go at all or just go for desert.

I know someone whose bishop used to have traditional Thanksgiving dinner at his priest's home -- turkey and all the trimmings! For both, it was Nativity fast before and after but not on that day.

I know alot of people will be all over me regarding this, but, oh well.....

There is a lot of worse nationalism that goes on in Orthodoxy than eating turkey at grandma and grandpa's on Thanksgiving day.
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« Reply #28 on: November 13, 2007, 01:21:26 AM »

If you decide to enjoy Thanksgiving...the real challenge will be:
A. turning down the leftovers they want to send you home with
B. throwing the left-overs away if they insist
C. Freezing the leftovers until after Christmas

Because everyone knows that the Friday after Thanksgiving is the BEST day with all those left-overs, not Thanksgiving Day itself.
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« Reply #29 on: November 13, 2007, 01:40:07 AM »

We can't take any leftovers home since it is about a 5 hour drive. And we have decided not to observe the fast this year for Thanksgiving. Although I am sure we will still eat more cedar planked salmon than turkey anyway.

The book is "Memory eternal" and it is about Tlingit culture. After further research the book timeline begins after his death from 1834-1990. But I remember seeing mention of him in it. I could be incorrect though, was only able to flip thru it before returning it to the library. I have a great number of books that I need to read as an inquirer, so I don't have the time right now to delve into that book very indepth yet. The book is published by The University of Washington press.

 http://www.amazon.com/Memory-Eternal-Orthodox-Christianity-Centuries/dp/0295978066/ref=sr_1_7/102-2761824-7305759?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1194931903&sr=8-7
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« Reply #30 on: November 13, 2007, 08:59:58 AM »

This has been interesting to read.

Being Australian we don't celebrate Thanksgiving (however our current Prime Minister has tried to get us to celebrate it in May for the past few years though most people still don't know that).

Having converted to the Coptic Church, we have our own calendar which is very similiar to the Julian one.

Hence this problem has been enlightening to read about.

Hope you solve it easily although glad to see those on the Old Calendar don't have this problem!
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« Reply #31 on: November 13, 2007, 09:58:35 AM »

If I am having dinner in a non-Orthodox home, I should eat what they offer me. At least, that's pretty much what I practice. There is also a reference in one of the epistles of St. Paul with regard to eating at the home of non-believers which basically says the same thing. St. Paul goes on to point out that if the meat for dinner is known to have been offered as a sacrifice to pagan idols, you shouldn't eat it, however. Perhaps someone else here can recall the epistle's chapter and verses.
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« Reply #32 on: November 13, 2007, 10:02:53 AM »

Hope you solve it easily although glad to see those on the Old Calendar don't have this problem!

Since we can't convince the new calendarists to change to the Julian calendar, maybe we can convince the Yankees to changes Thanksgiving to the same day as it is celebrated in Soviet Canuckistan (which coincides with Columbus day in America).  This will solve the problem for everyone*.   Grin












*Everyone does not include people in the South, who still haven't figured out the civil war is over.  Tongue
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« Reply #33 on: November 13, 2007, 10:05:11 AM »

From our parish newsletter:

AMERICAN THANKSGIVING DAY- On the Fourth Thursday of November 22, the people of the United States
gather in their families to thank the Lord for all that He has done for us, and for our world. Many Orthodox
Parishes serve the American Thanksgiving Service written by St. Tikon when he was a bishop in the United States.
The Holy Synod of Bishops of the Self-Ruling Archdiocese of The Antiochian Orthodox Church of North America
has granted to Antiochian Orthodox Christians the oeconomia of eating a traditional Thanksgiving Feast including
Turkey on this day despite it being in the Nativity Lenten fast period. Your non-fasting recipes that have leftovers
will need to be packaged and frozen awaiting the feast of the Nativity to finish enjoying them.

http://www.theforerunner.org/pubdocs/PDF%20Newsletter/Voice1107.pdf

As I recall,  Ithink we have some recipes on the family Forum for  Fasting Thanksgiving  if you are interested.

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« Reply #34 on: November 13, 2007, 10:06:59 AM »

*Everyone does not include people in the South, who still haven't figured out the civil war is over.  Tongue













You mean the War of Northern Aggression.
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« Reply #35 on: November 13, 2007, 10:10:49 AM »

Since we can't convince the new calendarists to change to the Julian calendar

Haven't given up on that yet mate Cool

Would be a much easier way to solve this problem for you Americans as you yourself can attest to my Old Calendar friend Wink
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« Reply #36 on: November 13, 2007, 10:13:41 AM »

You mean the War of Northern Aggression.















In my son's pre-school, they call it "the war of southern capitulation".
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« Reply #37 on: November 13, 2007, 10:15:22 AM »

In my son's pre-school, they call it "the war of southern capitulation".















I see you Yankees start the indoctrination early.
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« Reply #38 on: November 13, 2007, 10:24:36 AM »

Oh... and the songs they sing...

Yes, we'll rally round the flag, boys, we'll rally once again,
    Shouting the battle cry of Freedom,
We will rally from the hillside, we'll gather from the plain,
Shouting the battle cry of Freedom.

(Chorus)
The Union forever,
Hurrah! boys, hurrah!
Down with the traitors,
Up with the stars,
While we rally round the flag, boys,
Rally once again,
Shouting the battle cry of Freedom.

We are springing to the call of our brothers gone before,
    Shouting the battle cry of Freedom,
And we'll fill our vacant ranks with a million freemen more,
    Shouting the battle cry of Freedom.
(Chorus)

We will welcome to our numbers the loyal, true and brave,
    Shouting the battle cry of Freedom,
And although they may be poor, not a man shall be a slave,
    Shouting the battle cry of Freedom.
(Chorus)

So we're springing to the call from the East and from the West,
    Shouting the battle cry of Freedom,
And we'll hurl the Rebel crew from the land that we love best,
Shouting the battle cry of Freedom.
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« Reply #39 on: November 13, 2007, 10:30:33 AM »

Strange that you do things like that Roll Eyes

It was only a few years ago that it actually became compulsory for people to pass history to get a school certificate here in Australia (in NSW at least).

However we do teach our children historical songs about famous criminals and criminal activities. But beware what happens to jolly swagmen who hide jumbucks from troopers in their tuckerbags... "And his ghost may be heard as you pass by that billabong...".

Why are you using tiny writing too?
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« Reply #40 on: November 13, 2007, 10:34:00 AM »

Didymus... I'm just razzing the southerners (like Veniamin).  My kid is not even in preschool yet, but he's probably already locked and loaded, ready to take me out in defense of the South!!! LOL
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« Reply #41 on: November 13, 2007, 10:41:09 AM »

You mean the War of Northern Aggression.

 Grin  Oh man ... I almost fell off the couch laughing at that one!  Thankfully I was not drinking coffee when I read it!  That was priceless!  Where's my Confederate Battle Ensign when I need it?  Wink
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« Reply #42 on: November 13, 2007, 10:49:53 AM »

SouthSerb99, fair enough but I was being completely serious about Australia.

On your war though, I've seen a Landmark Baptist site which has a whole section on why the South should separate from the Union!

Nice to see disestablishmentarianism at work amongst them isn't it?!
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« Reply #43 on: November 13, 2007, 11:56:03 AM »

Didymus... I'm just razzing the southerners (like Veniamin).  My kid is not even in preschool yet, but he's probably already locked and loaded, ready to take me out in defense of the South!!! LOL

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« Reply #44 on: November 13, 2007, 03:27:14 PM »

I'm happy to be on the old calendar!  Smiley
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