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Author Topic: Catholicism Bad, Orthodoxy Good, and other polemical assertions  (Read 16697 times) Average Rating: 0
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pathofsolitude
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« Reply #45 on: November 12, 2007, 07:53:19 AM »

You rightfully quoted Matt 13:38, John 8:44 and 1 John 3:8 and 3:10, but they all refer to what man does, not to what man is.

This simply makes no sense. Jesus said that they *are* children of the devil.

Quote
Each and every man is my brother in Adam.

If every man is your brother then you are in Satan's family. I am personally no longer "in Adam" but am "in Christ." See Roman 5-6. I have spiritually died to the old man. Therefore the only relation I have to the First Adam is mere physicality which does not matter any more. Christ is the New Adam of the spiritually reborn people. My only real family is the saints.

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Now, what is apostatic in my attitude, would you point, please?

Sure. Think of all the most wicked sinners. You are saying that you are in their family.

I hope that you dont really believe in your heart what you are typing on the computer. I am not judging you as a person. You could be making a simple intellectual mistake. Thats very easy to do.
« Last Edit: November 12, 2007, 07:54:25 AM by pathofsolitude » Logged

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« Reply #46 on: November 12, 2007, 08:12:55 AM »

You could be making a simple intellectual mistake. Thats very easy to do.
You should know, you've made your own fair share of intellectual mistakes in the space of a few days. For example:
My favorite Protestant group is the Oneness Apostolics. Really. They are some of the only Protestants that almost approach Christian spirituality.
So, for you, the Protestants who "almost approach Christian Spirituality" are the ones who deny the Holy Trinity.

And
The Hesychasts know that souls must arrive at Truth by union of the human and divine hypostaseis which produces the true experience.
How can there possibly be a "union of the human and divine hypostasis"?  Are you a Nestorian?

And you repeat this error and add a further one:

Until one is in hypostatical and energetic union with my Master they will not know what I am talking about.
Again, we cannot "hypostatically" unite with God, nor do we have Divine Energies of our own which can "unite" to God's Divine Energy. So either you hold some sort of pantheism in which we are God, or a form of Solopsism.

Frankly, I don't think you know your a** from your elbow, let alone how to employ basic Orthodox Theological terms. So why don't you just go off and follow your "path of solitude" and stop wasting our time with your strange theories?
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« Reply #47 on: November 12, 2007, 08:39:30 AM »

So why don't you just go off and follow your "path of solitude"

It may be more accurate to call it the "path of loneliness." I'm not trying to mock PoS, but only to provoke him to consider that the genuine solitary experience, as evidenced in the lives of the Saints, inclines one to avoid the kind of quarrels he is consistently engaged in. I would theorise that a combination of factors, be they familial, social, economic, or whatever, have forced PoS into a situation of isolation he did not will, that he has a posteriori tried to interpret and live that situation as a "path of solitude" and that he has consequently deceived himself into thinking that he has received some special grace by virtue of his solitude that endows him with the ability and authority to condemn everyone and tell them what to believe and how to practice their lives. Other indications to this effect, aside from his online activities which, as I have suggested, demonstrate a disposition contrary to that which seeks withdrawal from the world, are his self-righteousness (he attempts to portray himself as holy), and relatedly, his lack of humility (he doesn't take criticism or rebuke very well, and is often quite defensive). The late Pope Kyrillos VI once said that he who is quick to condemn demonstrates that he has never truly stood in the presence of God--Pope Kyrillos was a true solitary and holy man, and so I think I can take his words to their logical conclusion: Genuine solitude = experience of the presence of God = inclination against condemning anyone.

Just something to consider...
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« Reply #48 on: November 12, 2007, 09:14:35 AM »

ozgeorge, thats just ridiculous. You have in effectively denied the very essence of Christianity. The human hypostasis IS united to the divine hypostaseis. This is taught clearly in Scripture. You also deny the energetic union. And how in the world do you say that we have no human energies? This is madness.

For your information, I definitely know the Oneness Apostolics are nonTrinitarians, and I said that their spirituality "almost approaches" Christian spirituality because of their attempt to practice the ascetical and mystical life. They make a better attempt than any other Protestant group I have seen. [For the record, recall that I said previously that Protestants are not Christians, and this would go for the Oneness Apostolics too.] I guess the next would maybe be like the Quackers or something, I dont know. Maybe to you that might mean I'm a Quaker. I'm tired of your polemic.

Ekhristos, dont worry about why my username is pathofsolitude. How do you know that I am living in solitude at this point in my life? I'm not. I live in a loud house with several other people. So much for your analysis of me. And as for not condemning others, I have not condemned one single person on this forum, but have only pointed out that they are already condemned. Cit John 3:18.

However, I am starting to agree with you guys that this communication is nearly pointless, as its falling on deaf ears.
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« Reply #49 on: November 12, 2007, 09:22:37 AM »

PoS,

I apologise for misinterpreting your situation. I'm glad you realise that these quarrels are not achieving any good. All the best.
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« Reply #50 on: November 12, 2007, 11:16:28 AM »

Then you better hasten back to Roman Catholicism or Byzantine Orthodoxy. How do *you* know that both of these churches are wrong in their [historically] exclusive beliefs that they alone are the [fullness of, at least] the true Church? Is it because your prancing priests in purple tell you so? Or is it because you use your own private interpretation? Uh oh!

The OTHER big problem here is that you seem to think you have exhausted the possibilities of what I believe in your rhetorical answers. Look, if you really cared what I believed, you have the means at your disposal here to research it. Assumption of personal authority is bad enough; but misrepresentation of others is the unforgivable theological sin. It is patently obvious that you don't know much about how and why I believe-- at least I have to assume this, because if you do know, then your false dichotmoy takes on the character of a malicious lie. But given the egocentric character of your teachings, I think it is safe to assume that you don't know about my faith.

Oh, and if you knew anything about Anglicanism you'ld know that only bishops wear purple-- not counting lenten/advent vestments, of course.

Anyway, you completely failed to address the point. You teach hesychaism as the be-all and end-all of Christian practice. I do not think it would surprise you to learn that the such praxis is to some degree appreciated both in Catholicism and Anglicanism; but they both reject the error of asserting that it is the sole way of salvation. But the error of your teaching is almost irrelevant. What is not irrelevant is that you refuse to appreciate that your half-hearted attempts to convince us are in fact teaching. Which brings us to this:

Quote
There are always going to be myriads of people and churches claiming different things. I ask you- what is the *way* by which you decide which "authority" is correct? If this is an external reality for you, I wish you luck, but the chances of you finding the truth that way are very slim.

Um, well, you are an external reality for me, so where does this leave us? I'll give you the answer I always give: that the act of choosing who to follow is inevitably an act of personal decision. Only those who do not choose can escape the fact of personal judgement. So you have no more of a chance than I do, for you quite clearly have engaged in that act of choice.

But in truth, not all choices are made equally. I'm not a believer in theology as the sole road to correct choice, because if it were, then everyone would choose the same. And I'm not a believer in institutional fealty in somewhat of the same manner as you do not believe. Churches do not cease to be earthy organizations even as they assume their heavenly place. But on the other hand, anyone who looks at the history of mysticism in the church can see that it is rather too often the wide road to heresy.

It seems to me that none of these sources of authority is utterly vacant, but that none is absolute either. One of the reasons I can remain an Anglican is because it allows room for these authorities to police each other. I see no reason to take Palamas or some other Eastern father as the touchstone of true faith; and for that matter I tend to doubt that Palamas would have defended the specifics of your peculiar program.

But the last problem, the one that a lot of people here already know about and that you apparently do not, is that I have already had mystical experience of Christ. And that experience leads me to the knowledge that you are wrong. It is clear to me that revelation must be disciplined by teaching, for as it is poured into the old sinful vessel of our thoughts, we are like as not to contaminate and adulterate it according to our own will. For those properly disciplined and of proper temprament, that distortion may be relatively slight (and yet absolute). You give every evidence that you are undisciplined and of rash temprament, and therefore I cannot trust you.
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« Reply #51 on: November 12, 2007, 11:17:36 AM »

Ekhristos, dont worry about why my username is pathofsolitude. How do you know that I am living in solitude at this point in my life? I'm not. I live in a loud house with several other people. So much for your analysis of me. And as for not condemning others, I have not condemned one single person on this forum, but have only pointed out that they are already condemned. Cit John 3:18.
Semantics, and nothing more...  By pointing out that certain people stand already condemned and by claiming to have inside knowledge of who those people are (Protestants, Roman Catholics, and any Orthodox who doesn't agree with your take on hesychasm), are you not in fact placing yourself in the judgment seat and condemning them yourself?
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« Reply #52 on: November 12, 2007, 11:34:45 AM »

Then you better hasten back to Roman Catholicism or Byzantine Orthodoxy. How do *you* know that both of these churches are wrong in their [historically] exclusive beliefs that they alone are the [fullness of, at least] the true Church? Is it because your prancing priests in purple tell you so? Or is it because you use your own private interpretation? Uh oh!

Again, you give alliterative attempts at insulting individuals who do not submit to your personal view.  Yet you claim that you have the Spirit of God while those who do not agree with you do not.  How does such treatment of other people fit with what we have been told are the "fruits of the Spirit" :

"Galatians 5:22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 23gentleness and self-control. Against such things there is no law. (NIV)  "

What are YOUR fruits?  What do you do in real life to show them? 

Or even more importantly from the words of Our Lord Himself "Do to others what you would have them do to you" - Gospel of St. Mathew 7:12.

It is hard sometimes to remember these instructions, but I know that it is how we are to treat other Human Beings.  Does the Spirit teach me/remind me of this? I believe so, but I also had to learn it in other ways so that it might be taken in and kept in my mind to recall.  I remember being a child, I am raising 3 children and I know how I learned and how they learn. 

And you tell Anglicans that they should go to the RC or the EO, yet you yourself are neither from what you have written here.  How do *you* explain away the two Churches assertion to being the True Church?

Quote
There are always going to be myriads of people and churches claiming different things.

To the contrary, there are myriads of people and churches who agree on many things, but not perhaps all.  With the Creeds to lay out the basic *core* points of Christianity there is more agreement then not amongst many.  There is a frame that then may have different customs, practices etc.  But that Jesus Christ is the Son of God and second person of the Trinity, for example is spread over many many Churches. 

Quote
I ask you- what is the *way* by which you decide which "authority" is correct? If this is an external reality for you, I wish you luck, but the chances of you finding the truth that way are very slim.

The first authority is God and the words of Jesus as recorded in the Gospels (that you call "memoirs" which makes them sound so much more subjective then say "historical account".  ) some of which are not hard to understand like the Golden Rule. 

Quote
BTW- Roman Catholics, Protestants, and other wicked heretics are not Hesychasts. So it doesnt surprise me in the least that they have been given over to believe the teachings of demons. The unique feature of the Saints is that they live in the Spirit and experience the light of divine glory. Roman Catholics are stuck in the dark nights of the soul. And Protestants are so bad off that they dont even know that they are in the pitch blackness of the darkest night. I follow the Faith of glory. Until one is in hypostatical and energetic union with my Master they will not know what I am talking about.

Teachings of "demons"...?  like "I believe in One God, the Father almighty"?  Huh Undecided   Just what experience do you personally have with RC or Anglicans that you claim to know what condition they are in?  You are judging others spiritual states, as we have been told by Our Lord *not* to do.

Would you please explain just what you mean by Hesychasts and what you think they do just to help others understand what you think it means?  Is it the "Jesus Prayer"? 

Ebor
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« Reply #53 on: November 12, 2007, 12:29:45 PM »

To Keble-

I am glad to hear that your mystical experience has atleast some impact on your beliefs. And I am also glad that you dont regard the Church of England, headed by the "Supreme Governor" Her Majesty Queen Elizabeth II, as too much of an authority. Or if you are in the Episcopal religion in the United States I am glad that you do not treat your gay and lesbian clergy as too much of an authority.

Quote
But on the other hand, anyone who looks at the history of mysticism in the church can see that it is rather too often the wide road to heresy.

Most people do not have genuine experience. So yes their false mysticism leads to heresy. I would add that the rational analysis of people who are not genuinely anointed by the Spirit is just as destructive. The fact of the matter is that most "Christian" teachers are in heresy. Actually now more of them are in heresy by their analysis of scripture than by mysticism.

Anyways I want you to know that I am not trying convince you guys of my beliefs by my own authority. I am merely stating the truth. If the truth is in you then what I say will register as the truth to you. I have been wrong many times in my life but I dont think I have been wrong in any of the main points that I have put forward on this forum. The only way for anybody to know is by their own experience. You say that you know by experience that I am wrong. Okay. But I know that you are wrong.

Quote
Oh, and if you knew anything about Anglicanism you'ld know that only bishops wear purple-- not counting lenten/advent vestments, of course.

Actually I do know that. Bishops are priests.
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« Reply #54 on: November 12, 2007, 08:28:35 PM »

This is madness.

........ THIS IS SPARTAAAAAAAAAAAA!!!!
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« Reply #55 on: November 12, 2007, 08:29:40 PM »

^^ROFL!!!!!!! Cheesy Cheesy
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« Reply #56 on: November 12, 2007, 08:37:05 PM »

The human hypostasis IS united to the divine hypostaseis.
Do you even know what "hypostasis" means?

This is taught clearly in Scripture.
Where?
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« Reply #57 on: November 12, 2007, 09:06:05 PM »

I am glad to hear that your mystical experience has atleast some impact on your beliefs. And I am also glad that you dont regard the Church of England, headed by the "Supreme Governor" Her Majesty Queen Elizabeth II, as too much of an authority. Or if you are in the Episcopal religion in the United States I am glad that you do not treat your gay and lesbian clergy as too much of an authority.

It seems to me that you are not very interested in how that experience affects me, especially considering that I said, "And that experience leads me to the knowledge that you are wrong." So when you say that

Quote
Most people do not have genuine experience.

... the obvious question for you is, "Why are you so sure that you are one of the exceptions?"

Quote
Anyways I want you to know that I am not trying convince you guys of my beliefs by my own authority. I am merely stating the truth. If the truth is in you then what I say will register as the truth to you. I have been wrong many times in my life but I dont think I have been wrong in any of the main points that I have put forward on this forum. The only way for anybody to know is by their own experience. You say that you know by experience that I am wrong. Okay. But I know that you are wrong.

...which is why what you are doing isn't good enough. Or rather, why I don't think you understand what you are doing, because you refuse to criticize it. Whether or not you intend to convince us by your own authority, that has been, inconsistently, the way in which you have presented yourself. But at the same time it is very obvious that you are in fact taught, either by yourself or another. And I'm betting on another, and that you don't appreciate that this has happened.
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« Reply #58 on: November 12, 2007, 11:14:53 PM »

Mostly what I have to say is esoteric knowledge.
Hmmmm...  You claim to have esoteric knowledge, and that this esoteric knowledge alone can save.  Sounds kinda Gnostic to me.  I think St. Irenaeus had some words to say about how we could recognize the Gnostic heresies and heretics and where truth was truly to be found.

Against Heresies, Book III, Chapter IV (published here:  http://www.ccel.org/ccel/schaff/anf01.ix.iv.v.html)
Quote
Since therefore we have such proofs, it is not necessary to seek the truth among others which it is easy to obtain from the Church; since the apostles, like a rich man [depositing his money] in a bank, lodged in her hands most copiously all things pertaining to the truth: so that every man, whosoever will, can draw from her the water of life.  (Rev. xxii. 17.)  For she is the entrance to life; all others are thieves and robbers. On this account are we bound to avoid them, but to make choice of the thing pertaining to the Church with the utmost diligence, and to lay hold of the tradition of the truth. For how stands the case? Suppose there arise a dispute relative to some important question among us, should we not have recourse to the most ancient Churches with which the apostles held constant intercourse, and learn from them what is certain and clear in regard to the present question? For how should it be if the apostles themselves had not left us writings? Would it not be necessary, [in that case,] to follow the course of the tradition which they handed down to those to whom they did commit the Churches?
(emphasis mine)
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« Reply #59 on: November 12, 2007, 11:40:39 PM »

........ THIS IS SPARTAAAAAAAAAAAA!!!!



 Cheesy Cheesy Cheesy Cheesy Cheesy

I can't help it...

THIS IS........................SPINAL TAP!!!!!!!!!!!

 Wink

Ebor
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« Reply #60 on: November 13, 2007, 12:00:09 AM »

I cant quote him right now because I dont own any of his books. I read them at the library.

Perhaps you might find www.CCEL.org a most useful source for looking up early Christian writings on-line.  Then you could provide links or other references in place of vague recollections.  Taking notes can also be helpful to keep information clearly in ones mind and helps prevent some mis-statings of what is actually written.

Quote
Mostly what I have to say is esoteric knowledge.

And how did you come by such hidden, exclusive, hidden knowledge please?  Will you tell us what you did to acquire it?

Things that are "esoteric" are considered to be special, and not for the common person but for the "Inner Ring" to cite C. S. Lewis' phrase.  Such perceived exclusivity can be a temptation to Pride, superiority and patronizing hoi polloi

Quote
I am starting to see that its basically pointless for me to try to convince people about it by computer. You just have to see for yourselves. No patristic citations will help you if you guys reject what Hesychast St John says. Looks like I am soon going into early retirement from OCnet. I'm sure that will make many followers of Mr Bartholomew, Mr Ratzinger, and Mr Rowan Williams very happy.

So far, I'm sorry, the "Fruits" that I have seen with such as the above are disdain, discourtesy (as you are purposely using "Mr." to be offensive, who are *you* to be the arbiter of what other people's titles are?), unkindness (mocking insults to others) and a lack of humility.

What do you do in real life, away from the computer to walk in the footsteps of Christ? 

Ebor
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« Reply #61 on: November 13, 2007, 01:32:04 AM »

Wow. Ex Catholic?

My suspicion is that he/she/it is...or a vagantes group member. I find her/him/it amusing.

Pax,
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« Reply #62 on: November 13, 2007, 04:35:02 AM »

You could be making a simple intellectual mistake. Thats very easy to do.

Of course, I can do erring easily, but in this case I can't see my mistake, while it seems to me your attitude implies several ones.

This simply makes no sense. Jesus said that they *are* children of the devil.

Yes, they are for what they do (they wish evil), not for what they've been created. Just in the verses you quoted. Romans 5-6, too. Everywhere. If it wasn't such, it would mean:
1) it wouldn't be God alone who is the Creator
1.1) satan would be able to create, too, so he would be called a creator, as well as God would be called a creator and not the Creator;
1.2) satan wouldn't be able only to seduce and deceive, he'd have real power;
1.3) it would amount to equal power of God and our eternal archenemy, whom we renounce (through our godfather) at our baptism;
1.4) it would imply an error of God, since not all of us would be created in His image, some of us would be delivered to our archenemy not for what we do of our free will, but for what we are;

2) we would be placed under the power of satan hopelessly, both before and after the incarnation of the Holy Spirit as Jesus Christ;
2.1) one would have to wonder why Son did incarnate as Jesus Christ, died and have resurrected, if not to free us by defeating our archenemy by conquoring death as the single and only thing over which satan does have power?
2.2) it would divide men in two camps, one of which would be damned for what they are, without the hope for repentance, while the other one would be destined for salvation, no matter what they do and how grave their sinning would be;
2.2.1) if 2.2. applies, why do we have free will?
2.2.1.1) if we (at least those of us in wrong camp) don't have free will to resist devil, (and reason to distinct evil from good), how come we (they) are created in the image of God?

It seems to me your conclusions are in disharmony with the consequences of three fundamental notions about God - His Goodness, Omnipotence and Justice.

If every man is your brother then you are in Satan's family. I am personally no longer "in Adam" but am "in Christ." ...hink of all the most wicked sinners. You are saying that you are in their family.

I'm baptized in Christ, too, that's why Orthodox Christians are my brothers and sisters in Christ. Heterodox Christians are my ill brothers (illness, desease) since I dare not calling them brothers, while those not being baptized are still my brothers and sisters in Adam.

And I am among the sinners and nothing but sinners. They are my family. Though I'd refrain from calling us "wicked". Perhaps weak of our own, but strong of Holy Spirit. We call ourselves Church.

Now, would you point to my mistakes placing me into the satan's family?
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« Reply #63 on: November 13, 2007, 09:33:59 AM »

Do you even know what "hypostasis" means?
Where?

A hypostasis is a concrete nature.

Scripture teaches that God and the Christian are united. This does not mean that God and the Christian are numerically one hypostasis. It just means that the TWO hypostaseis are united.

If you really want to debate me on this then we should probably start another thread eh?
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« Reply #64 on: November 13, 2007, 09:39:55 AM »

To orthodoxlurker-

I am not going to debate your useless scholasticism. My Lord tells me that bad people *ARE* children of the devil. I believe Jesus Christ and not your dialectic.
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« Reply #65 on: November 13, 2007, 09:44:32 AM »

To Ebor-

The esoteric knowledge I am talking about is simply the gnosis that is available to all genuinely anointed Christians. If the Spirit is in you then you can go within yourself and the Lord God will speak to you. He will reveal to you secrets that are hidden from the rest of the world.

You can call this gnosticism if you want. I really dont care. The fact is that its exactly what St Paul talks about. Please dont make me break out the memoirs again. I am not your teacher. Go read for yourself.
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« Reply #66 on: November 13, 2007, 09:50:12 AM »

A hypostasis is a concrete nature.

Scripture teaches that God and the Christian are united. This does not mean that God and the Christian are numerically one hypostasis. It just means that the TWO hypostaseis are united.

If you really want to debate me on this then we should probably start another thread eh?

You could have just written , "No, I don't".  Wink
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« Reply #67 on: November 13, 2007, 09:54:09 AM »

A hypostasis is a concrete nature.
Ummm...No it isn't.
Like I said:
Frankly, I don't think you know your a** from your elbow, let alone how to employ basic Orthodox Theological terms. So why don't you just go off and follow your "path of solitude" and stop wasting our time with your strange theories?
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« Reply #68 on: November 13, 2007, 09:57:29 AM »

Quote from: pathofsolitude
A hypostasis is a concrete nature.

No, the closest meaning in English would be person, more precisely should be "the collection/summa of personal properties" (or some more knowleadgable Greek speaking should correct my error).

I am not going to debate your useless scholasticism. My Lord tells me that bad people *ARE* children of the devil. I believe Jesus Christ and not your dialectic.

The fact is, there was no scholasticism in my reasoning, just the consequences to the harmony of ultimatelly logical and consistent Orthodox Faith.

Your attitude is rellying on basically dualistic comprehension of God and is completely strange to Orthodoxy. Consequently, it isn't me who is apostating. And everybody can see you offered no reasoning.

Edit: And of course, by your interpretation of Matt 13:38, John 8:44 and 1 John 3:8 and 3:10, you disregard His own words. You cat the message to halves, taking one half and abandoning the other one.

Not to mention the whole bunch of Holy Fathers, starting with St. Athanasios the Great.
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« Reply #69 on: November 13, 2007, 10:14:04 AM »

...  double post
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« Reply #70 on: November 13, 2007, 10:17:15 AM »

This is crazy. A hypostasis is a concrete, particular, existent nature. In other words, not merely ousia in the abstract, but rather an actual thing existing in reality.

In response to orthodoxlurker- So do you think my computer, which is a hypostasis, is a person? Not all hypostaseis are persons. Only rational ones are.

I am beginning to wonder about you guys.
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« Reply #71 on: November 13, 2007, 10:20:50 AM »

So what are you going to accuse me of now, ozgeorge? A moment ago you said I was Nestorian because I believe that two hypostaseis can be united without becoming one hypostasis. And now I guess you will say that I am a Monophysite because of my definition of hypostasis. Oh boy...
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« Reply #72 on: November 13, 2007, 10:27:47 AM »

This is crazy. A hypostasis is a concrete, particular, existent nature.
No. That's a Physis.

In other words, not merely ousia in the abstract,
"Ousia in the abstract"? Huh How can the substance and essence of something be "abstract"?

but rather an actual thing existing in reality.
So, are you saying that its ousia does not exist in reality? Huh

I am beginning to wonder about you guys.
Really? You're only beginning to wonder? I had you pegged ages ago.

So what are you going to accuse me of now, ozgeorge?
Ignorance.
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« Reply #73 on: November 13, 2007, 11:15:35 AM »

No. That's a Physis.

Physis and hypostasis are basically the same thing.

Quote
"Ousia in the abstract"? Huh How can the substance and essence of something be "abstract"?
So, are you saying that its ousia does not exist in reality? Huh

By "ousia in the abstract" I mean the *universal* nature. Is this too hard for you to figure out?

Quote
I had you pegged ages ago.

Riiight. Why are you debating me over the most PATHETIC semantics??? Is that what you have me pegged on?

At least the things I make a big deal about on the forum are substantial [no pun intended].
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« Reply #74 on: November 13, 2007, 11:24:34 AM »

Physis and hypostasis are basically the same thing.
No they aren't.

By "ousia in the abstract" I mean the *universal* nature. Is this too hard for you to figure out?
Yeah, it is kind of hard to figure out. So now you are saying that ousia, physis and hypostasis are all basically the same thing....Huh And what the heck is the "universal nature"?

Riiight. Why are you debating me over the most PATHETIC semantics??? Is that what you have me pegged on?
I had you pegged as ignorant and as not knowing what you are talking about. And you just keep proving me right.

At least the things I make a big deal about on the forum are substantial [no pun intended].
I know you think they are substantial, but really, how substantial can they be when the basis of your premises don't stand up to even minor scrutiny?
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« Reply #75 on: November 13, 2007, 12:06:31 PM »

pathofsolitude:

Perhaps it would help if you gave us definitions as you understand them to the following words:

hypostasis

physis

ousia


That way we can all be sure to be talking about the same things before any sort of discussion begins. 

In the spirit of full disclosure, so to speak, I would also call upon ozgeorge to give his definitions of the above terms.

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« Reply #76 on: November 13, 2007, 12:17:10 PM »

pathofsolitude:

Perhaps it would help if you gave us definitions as you understand them to the following words:

hypostasis

physis

ousia
PoS did so:
A hypostasis is a concrete nature.
Physis and hypostasis are basically the same thing.
By "ousia in the abstract" I mean the *universal* nature. Is this too hard for you to figure out?
Don't you listen?

That way we can all be sure to be talking about the same things before any sort of discussion begins. 
PoS should have thought of that before deciding to insult everyone and tell us we're crazy, don't you think? Wink

In the spirit of full disclosure, so to speak, I would also call upon ozgeorge to give his definitions of the above terms.
And do PoS' homework that he/she should have done before opening his/her mouth? Nah uh!
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« Reply #77 on: November 13, 2007, 12:26:01 PM »

ozgeorge,

Hey, I'm just trying to see if we can actually do something constructive instead of this "Ya huh!" and "Na uh!" argument we have going here.  If you're so inclined to continue to play tug tug with PoS, I guess I'll just shut up.
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« Reply #78 on: November 13, 2007, 12:28:59 PM »

Hey, I know it's well intentioned Shultz, and God bless you for it!
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« Reply #79 on: November 13, 2007, 12:31:29 PM »

This is pure scientific observation. I just want to see how deep a pit PoS is prepared to dig for him/herself before admitting he/she doesn't know what he/she is talking about.
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« Reply #80 on: November 13, 2007, 12:36:34 PM »

deciding to insult everyone and tell us we're crazy

I said "this" [the arguement] is crazy. I never said anyone is crazy. On the other hand you over and over again call me "ignorant" and say I "dont know my elbow from my a**" and other such things. If you think I am condemned by God for not agreeing with your pointless scholasticism then just say so and leave it at that. Really we dont need this profanity.

To Schultz- As ozgeorge said, I already gave my definitions of hypostasis, physis, and ousia.

THIS DISCUSSION IS SO RIDICULOUS THAT I'M SIMPLY NOT GOING TO TALK ABOUT IT ANY MORE. YOU CAN GO ON AND ON ABOUT IT BUT I AM DONE. I ONLY TALK ABOUT SUBSTANTIAL THINGS.
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« Reply #81 on: November 13, 2007, 12:41:30 PM »

I said "this" [the arguement] is crazy. I never said anyone is crazy. On the other hand you over and over again call me "ignorant" and say I "dont know my elbow from my a**" and other such things. If you think I am condemned by God for not agreeing with your pointless scholasticism then just say so and leave it at that. Really we dont need this profanity.

To Schultz- As ozgeorge said, I already gave my definitions of hypostasis, physis, and ousia.

THIS DISCUSSION IS SO RIDICULOUS THAT I'M SIMPLY NOT GOING TO TALK ABOUT IT ANY MORE. YOU CAN GO ON AND ON ABOUT IT BUT I AM DONE. I ONLY TALK ABOUT SUBSTANTIAL THINGS.

Personally, I think we should lock any thread you post in, but hey, that's just me.
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« Reply #82 on: November 13, 2007, 12:48:04 PM »

I already gave my definitions of hypostasis, physis, and ousia.
See? Told ya schultz Wink

THIS DISCUSSION IS SO RIDICULOUS THAT I'M SIMPLY NOT GOING TO TALK ABOUT IT ANY MORE.
Yep. Your definitions sure are ridiculous.

I ONLY TALK ABOUT SUBSTANTIAL THINGS.
Oh, I think Physis, Ousia and Hypostasis are pretty substantial things- don't you? They are if you worship The Holy Trinity and Confess the Second Person to be the Theanthropos. I mean, we should know Whom it is that we claim to worship, shouldn't we?
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« Reply #83 on: November 13, 2007, 12:52:10 PM »

Personally, I think we should lock any thread you post in, but hey, that's just me.
Ah, but then the trolls win don't they? Why should everyone else suffer because someone wants to make inane posts?
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« Reply #84 on: November 13, 2007, 12:54:23 PM »

Ah, but then the trolls win don't they? Why should everyone else suffer because someone wants to make inane posts?

Hmm...okay, then create a new sub-forum called "the sandbox" and move PoS's threads there. Tongue
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« Reply #85 on: November 13, 2007, 12:57:52 PM »


Perhaps it would help if you gave us definitions as you understand them to the following words:

hypostasis

physis

ousia


That way we can all be sure to be talking about the same things before any sort of discussion begins. 

In the spirit of full disclosure, so to speak, I would also call upon ozgeorge to give his definitions of the above terms.

Salve!

Could someone 'educated' define these terms so, at least, I could follow along...  Huh
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« Reply #86 on: November 13, 2007, 12:59:27 PM »

Hmm...okay, then create a new sub-forum called "the sandbox" and move PoS's threads there. Tongue
Actually not a bad idea. I don't just mean for PoS' posts, but for anyone who starts taking over and posting everywhere with this kind of inane nonsense. May be we could call it "the soap box" so it gives them the sense of importance they feel they have?
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« Reply #87 on: November 13, 2007, 01:07:46 PM »

Could someone 'educated' define this terms so, at least, I could follow along...  Huh
I ain't edjukated, but these are basic Orthodox theological terms.

"Hypostasis" is closely translated as "Person".
"Physis" is closely translated as "Nature".
"Ousia" is closely translated as "Essence/Substance/Being".

For example, the Holy Trinity is Three Hypostases sharing One Ousia. Christ is One Hypostasis in which are united a Divine Physis and a Human Physis and Who shares the same Ousia (is "homoousios") with the Father.
You are one hypostasis with a human physis.
Etc...etc...
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« Reply #88 on: November 13, 2007, 01:19:58 PM »

I ain't edjukated, but these are basic Orthodox theological terms.

"Hypostasis" is closely translated as "Person".
"Physis" is closely translated as "Nature".
"Ousia" is closely translated as "Essence/Substance/Being".

For example, the Holy Trinity is Three Hypostases sharing One Ousia. Christ is One Hypostasis in which are united a Divine Physis and a Human Physis and Who shares the same Ousia (is "homoousios") with the Father.

Thanks ozgeorge! These are all in the Creed aren't they?

Quote
You are one hypostasis with a human physis.
Etc...etc...

Shoot, I wanted to have more, like the big man upstairs!  Tongue
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« Reply #89 on: November 13, 2007, 01:29:12 PM »

Thanks ozgeorge! These are all in the Creed aren't they?
Ousia directly is in the Creed. ("homousios to Patri"- literally: "the same ousia as the Father". This is usually translated in English as "One in Essence with the Father". )
Physis is implied by "became man" ("enanthropoisanta").
"Hypostasis" is also implied since Each Hypostasis of the Trinity is addressed as God in the Creed, and yet the Creed opens with the words: "I believe in One God".
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