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Author Topic: Catholicism Bad, Orthodoxy Good, and other polemical assertions  (Read 17468 times) Average Rating: 0
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pathofsolitude
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« on: November 09, 2007, 07:41:08 AM »

Split off from the "ewtn catholic answers forum bars..."
http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,13287.0.html
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Dear friends,

It will do us no good to debate Satan's people. All true Christians know that the Wicked Warlord of the Tiber is Antichrist. No one filled with the Holy Spirit of God could sign up with someone who claims to have received from the Lord Jesus the power to control all the kingdoms of the earth and to command their armies to go to war. Much less someone who claims to be one and the same Head as Jesus Christ who everyone must obey as a condition to salvation. Granted they havent believed these things since the 60's but they believed them for a thousand years and now actually believe what is much much worse: that all religions lead to God. The Christians must flee every Roman Catholic apologist because they try to get us to submit to Antichrist. When St John the Apostle was confronted by wicked heretics he covered his ears and ran the other direction. Personally I am glad that the RC board ceased EO discussion.
« Last Edit: November 09, 2007, 04:37:49 PM by cleveland » Logged

The great apostasy has occured. Get out of there while you can!!! Its better to be priestless than to have a heretic bishop. The apostles taught that the church consists of saints only. There are about 7,000 Spirit-bearers currently in the catacombs.
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« Reply #1 on: November 09, 2007, 08:40:39 AM »

You are again making declarations about "All true Christians" though avoiding the other thread where you were asked to give support that your opinion is correct so that other people should accept it.  It has been unlocked since Wednesday so that you could reply. Huh  Why should you be blindly accepted  as any kind of authority on the beliefs and history of the RC more then on any of the other topics which you made declarations on?

You seem to expect that others will simply take your words as law and when they are not, you refuse to actually engage in discussion but resort to perjoratives and unsupported statements.  Why should you be accepted as an authority on any of the subjects that you think others should bow to your interpretations? How does name-calling and sneering help your cause?

You are a Human Being posting, but all we see here are words, and unconvincing words at that.  Those who read your words are also Human Beings.  Would you speak to us face to face as you have disdainfully written here?

Ebor
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« Reply #2 on: November 09, 2007, 09:59:07 AM »

Dear friends,

...All true Christians know that the Wicked Warlord of the Tiber ...

I need to say that I don't think anyone is a Satan's man. No such a man exist. All and each one of us is God's one.

Though antichrist will use the power of deceipt and delude many, actually most of us, when his time come, so nobody should be excluded in advance from being him, including the Pope of Rome, the same princple should apply as well to our Patriarchs. May God forgive me for having said this - I don't think anyone of them ever demonstrated such an inclinations, or did some things that are historically proved for some (not all) Popes of Rome of the last thousand years. But no one could be excluded in advance.

Guys, let us not make the things worse than they already are. RCC are our ill brothers (ill like in illness, desease). Though we must be caucious with them, since the historically turned to violence against us too frequently, and we should bear in ming that's always possible again, we can't refuse dialogue. But we must bear in mind it's always dangerous.

They did create the board that we were supposed to participate. I came accross there by googling after the specific statement that was posted there by Fr Ambrose, and needed to register to PM him to ask a link to original news, since i translated it and needed a source, so I stayed after it. I had doubts about should I participate in a Catholic board, but good moderation and good discussions kept me there.

I could not have seen our bashing and prozelytizing (sp) of RCC there. But the arguments we were posting apparently annoyed some of them that couldn't have stood it anymore.

They did what they want for their money with their board. It was not about us, it was about the arguments of Holy Orthodox Faith that were too strong for thoose of them who thought we are supposed to be agreeable with errors of their theology. But we can't do that, it would amount to compromizing our Orthodoxy.

But we should all be caucious - it could end such a way in real life as it did with CAF. Once they see they can't prove their stance, some of them can get a bit "crazy".

It's not them. It's the deamons raiding htem.

Regards to all known posters here - obadiah, stashko, Hesychios, jimmy. Good to see you guys.
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« Reply #3 on: November 09, 2007, 11:07:24 AM »

You are again making declarations about "All true Christians" though avoiding the other thread where you were asked to give support that your opinion is correct so that other people should accept it.  It has been unlocked since Wednesday so that you could reply. Huh  Why should you be blindly accepted  as any kind of authority on the beliefs and history of the RC more then on any of the other topics which you made declarations on?

You seem to expect that others will simply take your words as law and when they are not, you refuse to actually engage in discussion but resort to perjoratives and unsupported statements.  Why should you be accepted as an authority on any of the subjects that you think others should bow to your interpretations? How does name-calling and sneering help your cause?

You are a Human Being posting, but all we see here are words, and unconvincing words at that.  Those who read your words are also Human Beings.  Would you speak to us face to face as you have disdainfully written here?

Ebor

I would absolutely tell you to face to face that the pope of rome, as well as his minions in scarlet, are antichrists. I tell people this in person very often.

Anyways for what I said about the pope read this:

Quote
UNAM SANCTAM (Promulgated November 18 1302 by Pope Boniface VIII)

...

Therefore, of the one and only Church there is one body and one head, not two heads like a monster; that is, Christ and the Vicar of Christ, Peter and the successor of Peter, since the Lord speaking to Peter Himself said: 'Feed my sheep' [Jn 21:17], meaning, my sheep in general, not these, nor those in particular, whence we understand that He entrusted all to him [Peter]. Therefore, if the Greeks or others should say that they are not confided to Peter and to his successors, they must confess not being the sheep of Christ, since Our Lord says in John 'there is one sheepfold and one shepherd.' We are informed by the texts of the gospels that in this Church and in its power are two swords; namely, the spiritual and the temporal. For when the Apostles say: 'Behold, here are two swords' [Lk 22:38] that is to say, in the Church, since the Apostles were speaking, the Lord did not reply that there were too many, but sufficient. Certainly the one who denies that the temporal sword is in the power of Peter has not listened well to the word of the Lord commanding: 'Put up thy sword into thy scabbard' [Mt 26:52]. Both, therefore, are in the power of the Church, that is to say, the spiritual and the material sword, but the former is to be administered for the Church but the latter by the Church; the former in the hands of the priest; the latter by the hands of kings and soldiers, but at the will and sufferance of the priest.

However, one sword ought to be subordinated to the other and temporal authority, subjected to spiritual power. For since the Apostle said: 'There is no power except from God and the things that are, are ordained of God' [Rom 13:1-2], but they would not be ordained if one sword were not subordinated to the other and if the inferior one, as it were, were not led upwards by the other.

For, according to the Blessed Dionysius, it is a law of the divinity that the lowest things reach the highest place by intermediaries. Then, according to the order of the universe, all things are not led back to order equally and immediately, but the lowest by the intermediary, and the inferior by the superior. Hence we must recognize the more clearly that spiritual power surpasses in dignity and in nobility any temporal power whatever, as spiritual things surpass the temporal. This we see very clearly also by the payment, benediction, and consecration of the tithes, but the acceptance of power itself and by the government even of things. For with truth as our witness, it belongs to spiritual power to establish the terrestrial power and to pass judgement if it has not been good. Thus is accomplished the prophecy of Jeremias concerning the Church and the ecclesiastical power: 'Behold to-day I have placed you over nations, and over kingdoms' and the rest. Therefore, if the terrestrial power err, it will be judged by the spiritual power; but if a minor spiritual power err, it will be judged by a superior spiritual power; but if the highest power of all err, it can be judged only by God, and not by man, according to the testimony of the Apostle: 'The spiritual man judgeth of all things and he himself is judged by no man' [1 Cor 2:15]. This authority, however, (though it has been given to man and is exercised by man), is not human but rather divine, granted to Peter by a divine word and reaffirmed to him (Peter) and his successors by the One Whom Peter confessed, the Lord saying to Peter himself, 'Whatsoever you shall bind on earth, shall be bound also in Heaven' etc., [Mt 16:19]. Therefore whoever resists this power thus ordained by God, resists the ordinance of God [Rom 13:2], unless he invent like Manicheus two beginnings, which is false and judged by us heretical, since according to the testimony of Moses, it is not in the beginnings but in the beginning that God created heaven and earth [Gen 1:1]. Furthermore, we declare, we proclaim, we define that it is absolutely necessary for salvation that every human creature be subject to the Roman Pontiff.


In regards to all religions leading to God, see Nostra Aetate, a document from the Second Vatican Council:

Quote

...

Religions, however, that are bound up with an advanced culture have struggled to answer the same questions by means of more refined concepts and a more developed language. Thus in Hinduism, men contemplate the divine mystery and express it through an inexhaustible abundance of myths and through searching philosophical inquiry. They seek freedom from the anguish of our human condition either through ascetical practices or profound meditation or a flight to God with love and trust. Again, Buddhism, in its various forms, realizes the radical insufficiency of this changeable world; it teaches a way by which men, in a devout and confident spirit, may be able either to acquire the state of perfect liberation, or attain, by their own efforts or through higher help, supreme illumination. Likewise, other religions found everywhere try to counter the restlessness of the human heart, each in its own manner, by proposing "ways," comprising teachings, rules of life, and sacred rites. The Catholic Church rejects nothing that is true and holy in these religions. She regards with sincere reverence those ways of conduct and of life, those precepts and teachings which, though differing in many aspects from the ones she holds and sets forth, nonetheless often reflect a ray of that Truth which enlightens all men. Indeed, she proclaims, and ever must proclaim Christ "the way, the truth, and the life", in whom men may find the fullness of religious life, in whom God has reconciled all things to Himself

...

The Church regards with esteem also the Moslems. They adore the one God, living and subsisting in Himself; merciful and all- powerful, the Creator of heaven and earth, who has spoken to men; they take pains to submit wholeheartedly to even His inscrutable decrees, just as Abraham, with whom the faith of Islam takes pleasure in linking itself, submitted to God. Though they do not acknowledge Jesus as God, they revere Him as a prophet.

...

Although the Church is the new people of God, the Jews should not be presented as rejected or accursed by God, as if this followed from the Holy Scriptures.


Happy?? Is that the wicked apostate religion you want to belong to? I guarantee you that anyone who holds to these beliefs has absolutely nothing at all, I mean absolutely nothing, to do with my Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.

To moderators, I am sorry to divert from the topic of this thread, but Ebor was trying to villainize me for not giving long pointless quotes like I gave here.


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The great apostasy has occured. Get out of there while you can!!! Its better to be priestless than to have a heretic bishop. The apostles taught that the church consists of saints only. There are about 7,000 Spirit-bearers currently in the catacombs.
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« Reply #4 on: November 09, 2007, 11:16:32 AM »

I need to say that I don't think anyone is a Satan's man. No such a man exist. All and each one of us is God's one.

What? My Lord says:

Matt 13:38 "and the field is the world; and as for the good seed, these are the sons of the kingdom; and the tares are the sons of the evil one "

John 8:44 "You are of your father the devil , and you want to do the desires of your father. He was a murderer from the beginning, and does not stand in the truth because there is no truth in him. Whenever he speaks a lie, he speaks from his own nature, for he is a liar and the father of lies."

1 John 3:8 "the one who practices sin is of the devil "

1 John 3:10 "This is how we know who the children of God are and who the children of the devil are: Anyone who does not do what is right is not a child of God; nor is anyone who does not love his brother."

So then you are preaching a false religion. And if what you say is true, then children of the devil are your brothers, which would make the devil like your step-father or something. Apostasy!
« Last Edit: November 09, 2007, 11:21:49 AM by pathofsolitude » Logged

The great apostasy has occured. Get out of there while you can!!! Its better to be priestless than to have a heretic bishop. The apostles taught that the church consists of saints only. There are about 7,000 Spirit-bearers currently in the catacombs.
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« Reply #5 on: November 09, 2007, 01:15:55 PM »

Dear 'Path'

Please give it a rest. I am getting a headache reading your posts.

Besides, western Catholicism was Orthodox once, it can be again. What they really need from us is prayer and a charitable but resolute example to follow.

Do I expect any big changes over there for the better? Not by my efforts, but by the Holy Spirit. And perhaps not in my lifetime, but some day.

Michael
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« Reply #6 on: November 09, 2007, 01:23:10 PM »

I would absolutely tell you to face to face that the pope of rome, as well as his minions in scarlet, are antichrists. I tell people this in person very often.

Anyways for what I said about the pope read this:
 

In regards to all religions leading to God, see Nostra Aetate, a document from the Second Vatican Council:
 

Happy?? Is that the wicked apostate religion you want to belong to? I guarantee you that anyone who holds to these beliefs has absolutely nothing at all, I mean absolutely nothing, to do with my Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.

To moderators, I am sorry to divert from the topic of this thread, but Ebor was trying to villainize me for not giving long pointless quotes like I gave here.



Wow. Ex Catholic?
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« Reply #7 on: November 09, 2007, 04:28:36 PM »

I would absolutely tell you to face to face that the pope of rome, as well as his minions in scarlet, are antichrists. I tell people this in person very often.

OK. Thank you for answering my question.  And that is your opinion on the Bishop of Rome.  But that does not mean that others are required to accept it.  

Then again, do you want to bring people to your way of thinking or just declare your opinions?  As the old saying goes, "you catch more flies with honey then with vinegar." as my grandmother used to say.

Quote
Happy?? Is that the wicked apostate religion you want to belong to? I guarantee you that anyone who holds to these beliefs has absolutely nothing at all, I mean absolutely nothing, to do with my Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.

Well, since the first passage is from several hundred years ago and is not, as far as I know, the way things are though of now, it doesn't apply to the present. For the second, I would prefer to read all of it rather then three bits out of context to find out just what was the intent of the document.  The portions you cite appear to be saying that Human Beings have tried to seek God as they could (considering for instance that Gautama the Buddha predates the Birth of Our Lord by some centuries).  

I do not mean to offend you, but there could be some other meaning to writings besides that which you have decided is the only right one.


Quote
To moderators, I am sorry to divert from the topic of this thread, but Ebor was trying to villainize me for not giving long pointless quotes like I gave here.
 

"Villanize"? I was not in any way trying to make you a villan. I apologize for any poor writing on my part that gave that impression.  

Pertinent quotes *in support of one's assertions* are not "pointless" however.  The ones you provided give people some idea of what you are getting at and can be looked up to see if you are understanding them and using them in context.

Ebor
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« Reply #8 on: November 09, 2007, 04:42:06 PM »

I would absolutely tell you to face to face that the pope of rome, as well as his minions in scarlet, are antichrists. I tell people this in person very often.

And so what? Why should anyone care whom you claim to be an antichrist? You're nothing but a pack of cards!
« Last Edit: November 09, 2007, 05:37:25 PM by Keble » Logged
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« Reply #9 on: November 09, 2007, 05:11:51 PM »

Well, since the first passage is from several hundred years ago and is not, as far as I know, the way things are though of now, it doesn't apply to the present.

Indeed, Unam Sanctam is not infallible by any means.

(and neither is Apostolicae Curae---hat tip to my Anglican friends Ebor and Keble)
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« Reply #10 on: November 09, 2007, 05:20:20 PM »

Indeed, Unam Sanctam is not infallible by any means.

(and neither is Apostolicae Curae---hat tip to my Anglican friends Ebor and Keble)

 Smiley

Thank you

Ebor
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« Reply #11 on: November 09, 2007, 05:22:49 PM »

I would absolutely tell you to face to face that the pope of rome, as well as his minions in scarlet, are antichrists. I tell people this in person very often.

Wow. Ex Catholic?

He sounds like Martin Luther's kind of Lutheran!  They are in short supply today!

PoS,

Being a sinner and not humble in the least, I know it is hypocritical for me to say something, but would you please just reserve your "judgments" for another audience?  May I suggest a wall?  It will take what you have with good pleasure and never argue with you.  Perhaps I should just take the high road and not even read your posts, but, wow, these just make my day.
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« Reply #12 on: November 09, 2007, 05:25:17 PM »

Indeed, Unam Sanctam is not infallible by any means.

(and neither is Apostolicae Curae---hat tip to my Anglican friends Ebor and Keble)

What is the mechanism that makes a proclamation infallible?
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« Reply #13 on: November 09, 2007, 05:36:32 PM »

What is the mechanism that makes a proclamation infallible?

Well, there's a decent discussion of it back on Catholic Answers: http://www.catholic.com/library/Papal_Infallibility.asp

A better discussion about exactly what papal statements have been infallible is here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Papal_infallibility#Instances_of_papal_infallibility

"I'm never infallible. A Pope is only infallible when he speaks ex cathedra, and I never speak ex cathedra." Pope Blessed John XXIII
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« Reply #14 on: November 09, 2007, 05:42:38 PM »

"I'm never infallible. A Pope is only infallible when he speaks ex cathedra, and I never speak ex cathedra." Pope Blessed John XXIII

did John XXIII really say that? God Bless Him!
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« Reply #15 on: November 09, 2007, 05:46:36 PM »

did John XXIII really say that? God Bless Him!

I can't confirm it. I'd have to look it up in something more reputable than Wikipedia. But it sounds like something he'd say. If he said it, he had a very good point---that instances of infallibility are an extremely rare occurrence, that popes are to preserve and safeguard the deposit of faith, not add to it.
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« Reply #16 on: November 09, 2007, 05:54:06 PM »

I can't confirm it. I'd have to look it up in something more reputable than Wikipedia. But it sounds like something he'd say. If he said it, he had a very good point---that instances of infallibility are an extremely rare occurrence, that popes are to preserve and safeguard the deposit of faith, not add to it.

Sound good to me. BTW, since your Catholic and this is a Catholic topic. What is your view of the ex cathedra statements of past Popes? What do you think personally about say... Mary being given a special unique charism to be without 'original sin'...
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« Reply #17 on: November 09, 2007, 08:49:20 PM »

RCC are our ill brothers (ill like in illness, desease).   A small note, I am not ill however I do accept donations of medicinal liqueurs to be shared and stored for those in need...thank you kindly
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« Reply #18 on: November 10, 2007, 12:02:08 AM »

What is the mechanism that makes a proclamation infallible?

Well, it can't be made infallible; it can only be recognized to be so. The theory is that when certain processes are followed, the resulting theology can be so recognized.

AC wasn't strictly done according to the processes, so there was considerable RC doubt as to its infallibility. It's rather an odd thing anyway, because it basically consists of a nitpick about the consecration of Matthew Parker, upon whom all subsequent Anglican succession depended (at least to the 1880s). The Anglican response attacked this nitpick as applying to RC consecrations of a long period as well. What really muddled the whole issue was that after AC Old Catholic bishops participated heavily in Anglican consecrations, to the point where there were bishops whose succession no longer depended crucially upon Matthew Parker. thus mooting the issue.
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« Reply #19 on: November 10, 2007, 12:07:00 AM »

pathofsolitude, when was the last time you had fun? Went out lately? ...with some nice friends? Orthodox or other...If you often say that Catholics are from the devil etc then you have too much time on your hands or are an extremist. Did you happen to remember such passages from the NT like "Love your enemies, do good to those who hate you..." Huh I would definitely be a hypocrite to say I do this all the time but we are not here to judge the pope or Catholics or whatever. Yes there are some major scruples in the way they put things together but that doesn't mean they're from the devil. As for heretics, they are those who hold unorthodox, incorrect belief....theres a difference between that and being a Voodoo kinda, Satan worshipper. If youre gonna bash others, do it to the Watchtower ppl or to the Mormons...lol just kidding- sorta.
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« Reply #20 on: November 10, 2007, 12:08:35 AM »

pathofsolitude, when was the last time you had fun? Went out lately? ...with some nice friends? Orthodox or other...

Or had a drink?  You've certainly been giving us cause to do that lately.
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« Reply #21 on: November 10, 2007, 01:29:06 AM »

Well, it can't be made infallible; it can only be recognized to be so. The theory is that when certain processes are followed, the resulting theology can be so recognized.

AC wasn't strictly done according to the processes, so there was considerable RC doubt as to its infallibility. It's rather an odd thing anyway, because it basically consists of a nitpick about the consecration of Matthew Parker, upon whom all subsequent Anglican succession depended (at least to the 1880s). The Anglican response attacked this nitpick as applying to RC consecrations of a long period as well. What really muddled the whole issue was that after AC Old Catholic bishops participated heavily in Anglican consecrations, to the point where there were bishops whose succession no longer depended crucially upon Matthew Parker. thus mooting the issue.

 Huh  Don't really know why you're going on about Anglican orders here etc........that's rather removed from the topic of conversation really, isn't it?
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« Reply #22 on: November 10, 2007, 02:39:47 AM »

And so what? Why should anyone care whom you claim to be an antichrist? You're nothing but a pack of cards!


Keble, you are Anglican right? [Forgive me if I'm wrong as I don't mean to insult you in that way.] Nearly every Anglican writer from the late sixteenth century to the late seventeenth century - a period of about a hundred years - believed that the Pope of Rome was "THE" Antichrist prophesied by St Paul in his letter to the Thessalonians. The literature on the topic is immense. Does that change your perspective?
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« Reply #23 on: November 10, 2007, 02:59:15 AM »

Keble, you are Anglican right? [Forgive me if I'm wrong as I don't mean to insult you in that way.] Nearly every Anglican writer from the late sixteenth century to the late seventeenth century - a period of about a hundred years - believed that the Pope of Rome was "THE" Antichrist prophesied by St Paul in his letter to the Thessalonians. The literature on the topic is immense. Does that change your perspective?
Pathofsolitude firstly from this "logic" that would mean that you should have the same Orthodox views as the patristics which you don't seem to have. Just because someone in there own flock believes something doesn't mean everyone else should and secondly patristics and theologians (Orthodox and otherwise) should not be solely interpreted by our situation but rather the context it is under consider for instance that this Anglican writer believed the Bishop of Rome was the Antichrist it would not surprise me if this view was shared by some eastern writers early post schism.
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« Reply #24 on: November 10, 2007, 10:07:01 AM »

Nearly every Anglican writer from the late sixteenth century to the late seventeenth century - a period of about a hundred years - believed that the Pope of Rome was "THE" Antichrist prophesied by St Paul in his letter to the Thessalonians. The literature on the topic is immense. Does that change your perspective?

Which writers are you thinking of, please?  As you there is a lot of Anglican writing.  It would be easier to read their exact words if authors/titles were given.  Also, that one century is not the sum-total of Anglican thought and looking at the political situation that it came out of (Attempt by Spain to invade and return England to RC, various plots to assassinate the Queen or King for the same purpose etc) there are other factors that apply.

Thank you in advance.

Ebor
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« Reply #25 on: November 10, 2007, 10:10:20 AM »

Keble, you are Anglican right? [Forgive me if I'm wrong as I don't mean to insult you in that way.] Nearly every Anglican writer from the late sixteenth century to the late seventeenth century - a period of about a hundred years - believed that the Pope of Rome was "THE" Antichrist prophesied by St Paul in his letter to the Thessalonians. The literature on the topic is immense. Does that change your perspective?

One of the things about being Anglican is that, as (depending upon whom you ask) Protestants, we are allowed to change our minds and admit that we have been wrong. Anyway, it can't "change" my perspective, as I already knew about this.

And something else you should change is your evasive attacks when you are put to the point of producing some authority for all your ex cathedra pronouncements. You appeal to scripture as would any radical Protestant, completely in violation of the Orthodox principle that the Church must interpret scripture. When called on this sin, you switch to attacking my church, as though that had the slightest relevance. It's a complete waste time to attack the Anglican churches for their imperfections, for we agree that we, of ourselves, are imperfect. So what's your next tactic to avoid being put to the test? As it stands, you stand on your own authority; and in claiming to speak for the spirit, you are in peril of being condemned as a false prophet.
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« Reply #26 on: November 10, 2007, 11:02:20 AM »

And something else you should change is your evasive attacks when you are put to the point of producing some authority for all your ex cathedra pronouncements. You appeal to scripture as would any radical Protestant, completely in violation of the Orthodox principle that the Church must interpret scripture.


Please dont accuse me of trying to use the apostolic memoirs "as would any radical Protestant." You should know good and well that I avoided quoting anything as long as possible until people demanded that I break out the socalled "Bible." I dont believe what I believe because some piece of paper told me. I know by experience.

Quote
in claiming to speak for the spirit, you are in peril of being condemned as a false prophet.

Good thing I'm not wrong! And for the record, a prophet is someone who speaks direct messages from God, which I never claimed to do. I am only telling my faith. Genuine Christians are taught all things inwardly by the Holy Spirit.



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« Reply #27 on: November 10, 2007, 11:33:52 AM »

the Orthodox principle that the Church must interpret scripture.


I would like to ask Keble which "orthodox church" he is talking about. I know its not your Episcopalian prancing priests in purple. Could it be whats called "world orthodoxy" headed by His All Holiness Bartholomew? Ah. Well I dont follow that religion either. This is why:

Quote

http://www.vatican.va/special/assisi-participants_20020118_en.html

DAY OF PRAYER FOR PEACE IN THE WORLD
IN ASSISI (24 JANUARY 2002)

LIST OF PARTICIPANTS


ORTHODOX CHURCHES

Ecumenical Patriarchate
- His Holiness Bartholomew I, Ecumenical Patriarch
- His Em. Gennadios, Archbishop, Metropolitan of the Greek Orthodox in Italy, Exarch of Southern Europe
- His Em. Emmanuel, Bishop of Reghion, Director of the Office of the Orthodox Church to the European Community
- Deacon Stefanos, Patriarchal Deacon
- Mr Basilios Karaghiorghis

Greek Orthodox Patriarchate of Alexandria and All Africa
- H.E. George Vladimirou, Bishop of Nilopolis, Patriarchal Vicar in Alexandria

Greek Orthodox Patriarchate of Antioch and All the East
- H.B. Ignace IV Hazim, Greek Orthodox Patriarch of Antioch and all the East
H.E. Lukas El Khoury, Auxiliary Bishop of the Patriarchate
- H.E. Gabriel Saliby, Metropolitan of Western and Central Europe
- Mr Dimitri Yamanoglu, Secretary to Metropolitan Saliby

Greek Orthodox Patriarchate of Jerusalem
- Rev. Archimandrite Nikolaos Nikodimos Farmakis
- Rev. Fr Rafaele Apostolos Anagnostakis

Orthodox Patriarchate of Moscow
- H.E. Innokentij, Bishop of Korsun for Russian Orthodox faithful in France

Orthodox Patriarchate of Serbia
- H.E. Jovan, Metropolitan of Zagreb and Ljubljana

Orthodox Patriarchate of Romania
- H.E. Ioan Salagean, Bishop of Harghita and Covasna

Orthodox Church of Finland
- H.E. Ambrosius, Metropolitan elect of Helsinki

Orthodox Patriarchate of Bulgaria
- Rev. Archpriest Ivan Petkin, Episcopal Vicar for Central and Western Europe

Orthodox Church of Cyprus
- H.E. Vasilios, Bishop of Trimithus, Vicar of the Greek Orthodox Archbishop of Nea Justiniana and All Cyprus
- Prof. Christos Economou

Orthodox Church of Poland
- Rev. Archimandrite Jerzy (Pankowki)

Orthodox Church of Albania
- H.B. Anastas, Archbishop of Tirana, Durres and of All Albania
- Rev. Fr Jani Trebicka, General Secretary of the Holy Synod


ANCIENT CHURCHES OF THE EAST

Syrian Orthodox Patriarchate of Antioch
- H.E. Mor Gregorios Yohanna Ibrahim, Metropolitan of Aleppo

Armenian Apostolic Church
- H.E. Khajak Barsamian, Primate of the Eastern Diocese of the United States of America

Armenian Catholicosate of Cilicia
- H.E. Oshagan Choloyan, Archbishop, Prelate of the Eastern Coast of the United States of America and Canada

Orthodox Church of Ethiopia
- Rev. Fr Abba G. Egziabher G. Selassie, Rector of the Ethiopian Community of Rome
- Dr Tarekegne Taka, President of the Ethiopian Community in Italy

Syrian Orthodox Malankara Church, India
- Rev. Dr Mathew Baby

Assyrian Church of the East
- His Holiness Mar Dinkha IV, Catholicos Patriarch of the Assyrian Church of the East
- H.E. Mar Bawai Ashur Soro, Assyrian Bishop of Seattle, General Secretary of the Interecclesial Commission for Ecumenical Relations

No institutional state church tells me what to do, okay? I follow the Lord Jesus Christ by his Holy Spirit. If there are no legitimate bishops left on earth I will still follow what I know is right.

I don't care if you disagree with the EP about his policies - feel free to do so.  But ad hominem attacks, even against 3rd parties, are not permitted here. Save the insults, and just discuss policies, positions, and theology.  - Cleveland, GM
« Last Edit: November 10, 2007, 12:01:24 PM by cleveland » Logged

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« Reply #28 on: November 10, 2007, 11:59:03 AM »

I would like to ask Keble which "orthodox church" he is talking about. I know its not your Episcopalian prancing priests in purple. Could it be whats called "world orthodoxy" headed by His All Holiness Bartholomew? Ah. Well I dont follow that religion either. This is why:

No institutional state church tells me what to do, okay? I follow the Lord Jesus Christ by his Holy Spirit. If there are no legitimate bishops left on earth I will still follow what I know is right.

While you are following your "holy spirit," be more respectful of the Ecumenical Patriarch

{Mod edit} I changed the quote only to match my moderation of his above post.  I didn't touch anything else, lubeltri  - Cleveland, GM {/Mod edit}
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« Reply #29 on: November 10, 2007, 12:04:39 PM »

No institutional state church tells me what to do, okay? I follow the Lord Jesus Christ by his Holy Spirit. If there are no legitimate bishops left on earth I will still follow what I know is right.

Really?  'Cause the Christians in the Bible respected the council of Elders.  Guess what?  That's an institutional Church.  Face it man - you can't hold up scripture as the authority and then say that "no institutional" church tells you what to do.  If you're only excluding "state" churches, that's fine - we don't have one here in America.  The EP that you mentioned is not a state Church.  So your comment is still off base.
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« Reply #30 on: November 10, 2007, 12:25:38 PM »

Please dont accuse me of trying to use the apostolic memoirs "as would any radical Protestant." You should know good and well that I avoided quoting anything as long as possible until people demanded that I break out the socalled "Bible." I dont believe what I believe because some piece of paper told me. I know by experience.

It has just struck me that rather then saying "Gospel" or New Testament or Epistles or any of the common names you refer to "apostolic memoirs".  This is interesting that there is a private/personal term used. It goes along with your use of "Genuine Christians" which you have yet to explain other then it seems to mean any who agree with *you*.

As to "socalled "Bible"" there is nothing alleged, doubtful or suspect about the collected OT, NT and Apocrapha being the "Bible" nor is the book that "in name only, but not in reality" which is what "so-called" means. 

You say that you know by "experience". May one ask just what your experience was please. When you had them did you test them to see if they were really from God?  Since you have shown some familiarity with the first letter of John what of this passage:

"1 Dear friends, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God, because many false prophets have gone out into the world. " (NIV)

"1 Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world. " (KJV)

I give two translations because you have not replied about which translation of the Bible you prefer.

Quote
Good thing I'm not wrong! And for the record, a prophet is someone who speaks direct messages from God, which I never claimed to do. I am only telling my faith. Genuine Christians are taught all things inwardly by the Holy Spirit.

All things?  Then why is evangalism commanded by Our Lord?  Why did St. Paul and thousands upon thousands of people through 2 thousand years translate the scriptures into many languages, teach and guide multitudes to Christianity? What of the Creeds to lay out and clarify the points of Christianity?

What does "Genuine Christian" mean to you please?  What do such people do, pray, practice and how do they worship?  Would you please explain what you think?  Thank you in advance.

Ebor



« Last Edit: November 10, 2007, 12:26:37 PM by Ebor » Logged

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« Reply #31 on: November 10, 2007, 12:31:58 PM »

As to "socalled "Bible"" there is nothing alleged, doubtful or suspect about the collected OT, NT and Apocrapha being the "Bible" nor is the book that "in name only, but not in reality" which is what "so-called" means. 

You say that you know by "experience". May one ask just what your experience was please. When you had them did you test them to see if they were really from God?  Since you have shown some familiarity with the first letter of John what of this passage:

"1 Dear friends, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God, because many false prophets have gone out into the world. " (NIV)

"1 Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world. " (KJV)

I give two translations because you have not replied about which translation of the Bible you prefer. 

Just in case he doesn't like either:

Αγαπητοί, μή παντί πνεύματι πιστεύετε αλλά δοκιμάζετε τά πνεύματα ει εκ τού θεού εστιν, ότι πολλοί ψευδοπροφήται εξεληλύθασιν εις τόν κόσμον. (Nestle-Aland 27th Edition)
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« Reply #32 on: November 10, 2007, 12:33:03 PM »

I know its not your Episcopalian prancing priests in purple.

Well, considering that purple is reserved for Bishop's clothing and for the vestments in the seasons of Advent and Lent, this example of an alliterative yet gratuitous attempt at offending someone doesn't really have anything to do with the subject.  Do you have any personal experience with any Anglican or Episcopal parishes or clergy?  
(You can't just go by what you read in the papers and on-line  Wink )

Quote
No institutional state church tells me what to do, okay? I follow the Lord Jesus Christ by his Holy Spirit. If there are no legitimate bishops left on earth I will still follow what I know is right.

Somehow this reminds me of "Every man his own pope", a common slanging against a nebulous "Protestantism".

Ebor


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« Reply #33 on: November 10, 2007, 12:34:00 PM »

Just in case he doesn't like either:

Αγαπητοί, μή παντί πνεύματι πιστεύετε αλλά δοκιμάζετε τά πνεύματα ει εκ τού θεού εστιν, ότι πολλοί ψευδοπροφήται εξεληλύθασιν εις τόν κόσμον. (Nestle-Aland 27th Edition)

Thank you, Cleveland.  Smiley 

Ebor
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« Reply #34 on: November 10, 2007, 01:22:47 PM »

First of all, can moderator cleveland please put edit brackets around the word "ALL" that he added into my post, because it looks like I wrote that. I certainly do not believe Mr Bartholomew or any man on earth, much less simply by their office[!], is "All Holy." Even my Lord Jesus questioned calling a man "good." Mark 10:18.

Okay, to Ebor:

I said to you that "genuine Christians are taught all things inwardly by the Holy Spirit." And you responded:

Quote
All things?  Then why is evangalism commanded by Our Lord?  Why did St. Paul and thousands upon thousands of people through 2 thousand years translate the scriptures into many languages, teach and guide multitudes to Christianity? What of the Creeds to lay out and clarify the points of Christianity?

Do you not believe that "genuine Christians are taught all things inwardly by the Holy Spirit"? Well maybe you will believe if you will read the words of the memoirs:

John 14:26 "But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in My name, He will teach you all things , and bring to your remembrance all that I said to you."

1 John 2:27 "As for you, the anointing you received from him remains in you, and you do not need anyone to teach you. But as his anointing teaches you about all things and as that anointing is real, not counterfeit—just as it has taught you, remain in him."


So yes, "all things." To answer your questions- priests are commissioned to preach and teach and translate memoirs and hold meetings because these help people along the way. It is a *guidance*. But am I supposed to believe that Jesus is Lord [or any other doctrine] simply because some guy tells me? Or because I see it on a pieces of paper? Thats not the way of the apostles. In 1 Cor 2 St Paul says Christians believe by the Spirit. There is no other way to the truth, Ebor, unless you want to blindly follow "Christianity" just like the Muslims follow their religion. The Muslims have Mohammed for truth and you have the Pope for truth. Okay but I have the Lord Jesus *IN* me. Thats how I know.

Note: I am sorry for quoting from the memoirs.
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« Reply #35 on: November 10, 2007, 03:32:02 PM »

First of all, can moderator cleveland please put edit brackets around the word "ALL" that he added into my post, because it looks like I wrote that.
You mean the bold red font and the moderatorial statement to go with it are not enough to show that cleveland, and not you, wrote that?

Quote
I certainly do not believe Mr Bartholomew or any man on earth, much less simply by their office[!], is "All Holy." Even my Lord Jesus questioned calling a man "good." Mark 10:18.
So why do you call yourself good?
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« Reply #36 on: November 11, 2007, 06:08:59 PM »

Mr./Ms./Whatever. pathofsolitude, what you seem to entirely lack are two things:
  • You utterly fail to apply the slightest introspection to yourself.
  • You utterly fail to consider that there are myriad others like you who claim the same authority and who disagree both with each other and with you.

I've had plenty of people claim to have a direct line to the Holy Spirit besides you, and they don't agree with each other, much less with your teachings. And that isn't a minor point, because here you teach us that we do not need anyone to teach us. There comes a point in any faintly coherent picture of Christianity where the centrality of teaching as an activity has to be conceded-- by doing it, if not by outright admission. And historical transmission of teaching is one of the key functions of the church. The patent oxymoron of your insistence on revelation alone is your version of that  concession; it resolves either to ignoring your teaching (as you teach) or taking you as the only valid teacher-- well, you and anyone else who happens to agree with you.
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« Reply #37 on: November 12, 2007, 03:40:33 AM »

Mr./Ms./Whatever. pathofsolitude, what you seem to entirely lack are two things:
  • You utterly fail to apply the slightest introspection to yourself.
  • You utterly fail to consider that there are myriad others like you who claim the same authority and who disagree both with each other and with you.

I've had plenty of people claim to have a direct line to the Holy Spirit besides you, and they don't agree with each other, much less with your teachings. And that isn't a minor point, because here you teach us that we do not need anyone to teach us. There comes a point in any faintly coherent picture of Christianity where the centrality of teaching as an activity has to be conceded-- by doing it, if not by outright admission. And historical transmission of teaching is one of the key functions of the church. The patent oxymoron of your insistence on revelation alone is your version of that  concession; it resolves either to ignoring your teaching (as you teach) or taking you as the only valid teacher-- well, you and anyone else who happens to agree with you.


Then you better hasten back to Roman Catholicism or Byzantine Orthodoxy. How do *you* know that both of these churches are wrong in their [historically] exclusive beliefs that they alone are the [fullness of, at least] the true Church? Is it because your prancing priests in purple tell you so? Or is it because you use your own private interpretation? Uh oh!

The Hesychasts know that souls must arrive at Truth by union of the human and divine hypostaseis which produces the true experience. By this means we have all truth and even dont *need* an external authority to tell us. This is the clear teaching of Hesychast St John:

1 John 2:27 "As for you, the anointing you received from him remains in you, and you do not need anyone to teach you. But as his anointing teaches you about all things and as that anointing is real, not counterfeit—just as it has taught you, remain in him."

Essentially I am saying the same thing as Gregory Palamas. How did he know that the Papalism - and by extension its bastard politically based child, Anglicanism - were actually demonically inspired religions? The children of God are entirely instructed by the divinity as the energies take full possession of their souls.

There are always going to be myriads of people and churches claiming different things. I ask you- what is the *way* by which you decide which "authority" is correct? If this is an external reality for you, I wish you luck, but the chances of you finding the truth that way are very slim.

BTW- Roman Catholics, Protestants, and other wicked heretics are not Hesychasts. So it doesnt surprise me in the least that they have been given over to believe the teachings of demons. The unique feature of the Saints is that they live in the Spirit and experience the light of divine glory. Roman Catholics are stuck in the dark nights of the soul. And Protestants are so bad off that they dont even know that they are in the pitch blackness of the darkest night. I follow the Faith of glory. Until one is in hypostatical and energetic union with my Master they will not know what I am talking about.
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« Reply #38 on: November 12, 2007, 04:41:24 AM »

Essentially I am saying the same thing as Gregory Palamas.
And what specifically did St. Gregory Palamas say about this?  Can you quote him and tell us where we can find this in his writings?

You see, pathofsolitude, this is part of your method that I find so objectionable.  You say such things as "the Desert Fathers say this"
In regards to patristics-
[bgcolor=#fff500]READ THE DESERT FATHERS [/bgcolor]
Pretty much everything I have to say is found in their writings. They are my inspiration. And they were much more spiritual than the bishops of the Empire who were actually functioning as politicians and servants of the Emperor. If anyone knows what society is all about its the Fathers of the desert.
or "St. Gregory Palamas says that" (see above) or "Orthodox theologians teach such and such..."
This is heresy!! Orthodox theologians teach that ...
or "I am merely teaching the position of historical Orthodoxy
This is what Orthodoxy teaches.

If they would broaden their spectrum a bit they would see that I am simply repeating the position of historical Orthodoxy.

Yet, the only quote of any Father or theologian I've ever seen from you was this commentary on a homily you attributed to Gregory Palamas in one of your earliest posts here:
Excerpts from the Homily on the Dormition
http://www.ocf.org/OrthodoxPage/reading/dormition.html

You're attempting to preach to some very committed and intelligent Orthodox Christians here, many of whom know the Fathers much better than you do.  If you want to convince such Patristics scholars of the veracity of your message, you had better be able to quote these Fathers and show us where you gleaned these quotes so we can read them for ourselves.  Otherwise, we can see right through your attempts to invoke the legacy of the Fathers (a.k.a. name-dropping) and recognize that what you preach here is nothing but your own self-devised doctrines.
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« Reply #39 on: November 12, 2007, 05:03:57 AM »

Yet, the only quote of any Father or theologian I've ever seen from you was this commentary on a homily you attributed to Gregory Palamas in one of your earliest posts here

For the record, though Palamas taught the true Hesychastic Way, he was wrong on some points in the Mariological sermon I linked to from him. The only explanatoin is that he was not in enough union with God. Someone can know the way to Truth and yet fall short in getting there because of infidelity. I was merely using him as an example for Keble because he is probably the most famous Byzantine teacher of apostolic epistemology.

Anyways- if you are "scholars" [as you call yourselves] on Palamas you should know exactly what I am talking about in regards to his epistemology. I cant quote him right now because I dont own any of his books. I read them at the library.

Mostly what I have to say is esoteric knowledge. I am starting to see that its basically pointless for me to try to convince people about it by computer. You just have to see for yourselves. No patristic citations will help you if you guys reject what Hesychast St John says. Looks like I am soon going into early retirement from OCnet. I'm sure that will make many followers of Mr Bartholomew, Mr Ratzinger, and Mr Rowan Williams very happy.
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« Reply #40 on: November 12, 2007, 05:24:17 AM »

Anyways- if you are "scholars" [as you call yourselves] on Palamas you should know exactly what I am talking about in regards to his epistemology. I cant quote him right now because I dont own any of his books. I read them at the library.
But do you not recognize that when you preach as you do--it doesn't matter what doctrine you preach, even if it's the totally secular doctrine of why we need to refrain from frying with lard--you owe it to us to cite the sources of your ideas, giving direct quotes when necessary to convince us that you aren't just blowing smoke?  We bear no responsibility to you to do anything to verify your message by reading the Fathers for ourselves.  I'm just speaking from my own experience as an academic who has written his share of research papers and made his share of public presentations to classmates.  I was never allowed to just tell my audience, "many people hold my opinion; read them for yourselves," for that's considered the depth of intellectual laziness.  I was always required to tell my audience specifically whom I was quoting and where my citation could be found (think footnotes and a bibliography).  Unless you invest the energy to back up your preaching with such specific citations, you're just being lazy.

Quote
I am starting to see that its basically pointless for me to try to convince people about it by computer. You just have to see for yourselves.
You're absolutely correct about your online rant being pointless, but it's because we need to see you for ourselves, and this without the veil of anonymity standing between us and you.

Quote
No patristic citations will help you if you guys reject what Hesychast St John says.
You just don't get it, do you?  It's not St. John the Theologian we reject.  It is your interpretation of St. John that we reject.  (BTW, you're the only person I've ever met who actually refers to the Beloved Disciple as the Hesychast St. John.)
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« Reply #41 on: November 12, 2007, 06:02:12 AM »

The Hesychasts know that souls must arrive at Truth by union of the human and divine hypostaseis which produces the true experience.
Well, perhaps Nestorian hesychasts do.....


I am starting to see that its basically pointless for me to try to convince people about it by computer.
Ahhh...The penny drops.
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« Reply #42 on: November 12, 2007, 06:40:05 AM »

What? My Lord says:

Matt 13:38 "and the field is the world; and as for the good seed, these are the sons of the kingdom; and the tares are the sons of the evil one "

John 8:44 "You are of your father the devil , and you want to do the desires of your father. He was a murderer from the beginning, and does not stand in the truth because there is no truth in him. Whenever he speaks a lie, he speaks from his own nature, for he is a liar and the father of lies."

1 John 3:8 "the one who practices sin is of the devil "

1 John 3:10 "This is how we know who the children of God are and who the children of the devil are: Anyone who does not do what is right is not a child of God; nor is anyone who does not love his brother."

So then you are preaching a false religion. And if what you say is true, then children of the devil are your brothers, which would make the devil like your step-father or something. Apostasy!


Apart from accusation that was painfull and hurting for me to read, you raised some valid points, but I think it is the consequence of misunderstanding my message. Kindly note that we were speaking about:

1) about God as the Creator (of all things, visible and invisible...)
2) about man and mankind
3) about the Pope of Rome
4) about the papal office (with it's competencies as defined on 1870 at Vatican II)
5) about all Christians in communion with the Pope of Rome for last almost thousand years
6) about antichrist - the man whom will come in the last time and will rule the world, to whom devil will borow all his cunningness and power of deception
7) about anricrhists, or advents of the antichrist

You rightfully quoted Matt 13:38, John 8:44 and 1 John 3:8 and 3:10, but they all refer to what man does, not to what man is. Man is created by God, not by devil.

I'd say each and every one of us is paving the way for antichrist by each sin one commits.

Regarding the Popes of Rome, I bet I can add items to any list you produce about their misdeeds against us "Easterners". So, their sins do pave the way to antichrist as every other sin paves it. Sins of a powerfull one bear stronger consequences than of a powerless one.

Regarding brotherhood, there are my brothers in Christ and my brothers in Adam. Each and every man is my brother in Adam. Otherone's sins are my own only to the extent I contributed to them.

We are forewarned about the antichrist, so I dare not referring to him
like I do any other man. But, suffice to say, it is his doings that will make him such.

Now, what is apostatic in my attitude, would you point, please?
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« Reply #43 on: November 12, 2007, 07:21:00 AM »

I'm just speaking from my own experience as an academic who has written his share of research papers and made his share of public presentations to classmates.  I was never allowed to just tell my audience, "many people hold my opinion; read them for yourselves," for that's considered the depth of intellectual laziness.  I was always required to tell my audience specifically whom I was quoting and where my citation could be found (think footnotes and a bibliography).

I am starting to think that the difference between you and I is quite reminiscent of the difference between Barlaam and Palamas.

Quote
(BTW, you're the only person I've ever met who actually refers to the Beloved Disciple as the Hesychast St. John.)

All the Apostles were Hesychasts. So I say Hesychast St Peter, Hesychast St James, Hesychast St Matthew, and so on.
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« Reply #44 on: November 12, 2007, 07:38:53 AM »

I am starting to think that the difference between you and I is quite reminiscent of the difference between Barlaam and Palamas.
Oh please!
Before you start thinking of yourself as some great defender of Orthodoxy, don't you think you should get the basics right first? (see http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,13309.msg183746.html#msg183746 )
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« Reply #45 on: November 12, 2007, 07:53:19 AM »

You rightfully quoted Matt 13:38, John 8:44 and 1 John 3:8 and 3:10, but they all refer to what man does, not to what man is.

This simply makes no sense. Jesus said that they *are* children of the devil.

Quote
Each and every man is my brother in Adam.

If every man is your brother then you are in Satan's family. I am personally no longer "in Adam" but am "in Christ." See Roman 5-6. I have spiritually died to the old man. Therefore the only relation I have to the First Adam is mere physicality which does not matter any more. Christ is the New Adam of the spiritually reborn people. My only real family is the saints.

Quote
Now, what is apostatic in my attitude, would you point, please?

Sure. Think of all the most wicked sinners. You are saying that you are in their family.

I hope that you dont really believe in your heart what you are typing on the computer. I am not judging you as a person. You could be making a simple intellectual mistake. Thats very easy to do.
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« Reply #46 on: November 12, 2007, 08:12:55 AM »

You could be making a simple intellectual mistake. Thats very easy to do.
You should know, you've made your own fair share of intellectual mistakes in the space of a few days. For example:
My favorite Protestant group is the Oneness Apostolics. Really. They are some of the only Protestants that almost approach Christian spirituality.
So, for you, the Protestants who "almost approach Christian Spirituality" are the ones who deny the Holy Trinity.

And
The Hesychasts know that souls must arrive at Truth by union of the human and divine hypostaseis which produces the true experience.
How can there possibly be a "union of the human and divine hypostasis"?  Are you a Nestorian?

And you repeat this error and add a further one:

Until one is in hypostatical and energetic union with my Master they will not know what I am talking about.
Again, we cannot "hypostatically" unite with God, nor do we have Divine Energies of our own which can "unite" to God's Divine Energy. So either you hold some sort of pantheism in which we are God, or a form of Solopsism.

Frankly, I don't think you know your a** from your elbow, let alone how to employ basic Orthodox Theological terms. So why don't you just go off and follow your "path of solitude" and stop wasting our time with your strange theories?
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« Reply #47 on: November 12, 2007, 08:39:30 AM »

So why don't you just go off and follow your "path of solitude"

It may be more accurate to call it the "path of loneliness." I'm not trying to mock PoS, but only to provoke him to consider that the genuine solitary experience, as evidenced in the lives of the Saints, inclines one to avoid the kind of quarrels he is consistently engaged in. I would theorise that a combination of factors, be they familial, social, economic, or whatever, have forced PoS into a situation of isolation he did not will, that he has a posteriori tried to interpret and live that situation as a "path of solitude" and that he has consequently deceived himself into thinking that he has received some special grace by virtue of his solitude that endows him with the ability and authority to condemn everyone and tell them what to believe and how to practice their lives. Other indications to this effect, aside from his online activities which, as I have suggested, demonstrate a disposition contrary to that which seeks withdrawal from the world, are his self-righteousness (he attempts to portray himself as holy), and relatedly, his lack of humility (he doesn't take criticism or rebuke very well, and is often quite defensive). The late Pope Kyrillos VI once said that he who is quick to condemn demonstrates that he has never truly stood in the presence of God--Pope Kyrillos was a true solitary and holy man, and so I think I can take his words to their logical conclusion: Genuine solitude = experience of the presence of God = inclination against condemning anyone.

Just something to consider...
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« Reply #48 on: November 12, 2007, 09:14:35 AM »

ozgeorge, thats just ridiculous. You have in effectively denied the very essence of Christianity. The human hypostasis IS united to the divine hypostaseis. This is taught clearly in Scripture. You also deny the energetic union. And how in the world do you say that we have no human energies? This is madness.

For your information, I definitely know the Oneness Apostolics are nonTrinitarians, and I said that their spirituality "almost approaches" Christian spirituality because of their attempt to practice the ascetical and mystical life. They make a better attempt than any other Protestant group I have seen. [For the record, recall that I said previously that Protestants are not Christians, and this would go for the Oneness Apostolics too.] I guess the next would maybe be like the Quackers or something, I dont know. Maybe to you that might mean I'm a Quaker. I'm tired of your polemic.

Ekhristos, dont worry about why my username is pathofsolitude. How do you know that I am living in solitude at this point in my life? I'm not. I live in a loud house with several other people. So much for your analysis of me. And as for not condemning others, I have not condemned one single person on this forum, but have only pointed out that they are already condemned. Cit John 3:18.

However, I am starting to agree with you guys that this communication is nearly pointless, as its falling on deaf ears.
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« Reply #49 on: November 12, 2007, 09:22:37 AM »

PoS,

I apologise for misinterpreting your situation. I'm glad you realise that these quarrels are not achieving any good. All the best.
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« Reply #50 on: November 12, 2007, 11:16:28 AM »

Then you better hasten back to Roman Catholicism or Byzantine Orthodoxy. How do *you* know that both of these churches are wrong in their [historically] exclusive beliefs that they alone are the [fullness of, at least] the true Church? Is it because your prancing priests in purple tell you so? Or is it because you use your own private interpretation? Uh oh!

The OTHER big problem here is that you seem to think you have exhausted the possibilities of what I believe in your rhetorical answers. Look, if you really cared what I believed, you have the means at your disposal here to research it. Assumption of personal authority is bad enough; but misrepresentation of others is the unforgivable theological sin. It is patently obvious that you don't know much about how and why I believe-- at least I have to assume this, because if you do know, then your false dichotmoy takes on the character of a malicious lie. But given the egocentric character of your teachings, I think it is safe to assume that you don't know about my faith.

Oh, and if you knew anything about Anglicanism you'ld know that only bishops wear purple-- not counting lenten/advent vestments, of course.

Anyway, you completely failed to address the point. You teach hesychaism as the be-all and end-all of Christian practice. I do not think it would surprise you to learn that the such praxis is to some degree appreciated both in Catholicism and Anglicanism; but they both reject the error of asserting that it is the sole way of salvation. But the error of your teaching is almost irrelevant. What is not irrelevant is that you refuse to appreciate that your half-hearted attempts to convince us are in fact teaching. Which brings us to this:

Quote
There are always going to be myriads of people and churches claiming different things. I ask you- what is the *way* by which you decide which "authority" is correct? If this is an external reality for you, I wish you luck, but the chances of you finding the truth that way are very slim.

Um, well, you are an external reality for me, so where does this leave us? I'll give you the answer I always give: that the act of choosing who to follow is inevitably an act of personal decision. Only those who do not choose can escape the fact of personal judgement. So you have no more of a chance than I do, for you quite clearly have engaged in that act of choice.

But in truth, not all choices are made equally. I'm not a believer in theology as the sole road to correct choice, because if it were, then everyone would choose the same. And I'm not a believer in institutional fealty in somewhat of the same manner as you do not believe. Churches do not cease to be earthy organizations even as they assume their heavenly place. But on the other hand, anyone who looks at the history of mysticism in the church can see that it is rather too often the wide road to heresy.

It seems to me that none of these sources of authority is utterly vacant, but that none is absolute either. One of the reasons I can remain an Anglican is because it allows room for these authorities to police each other. I see no reason to take Palamas or some other Eastern father as the touchstone of true faith; and for that matter I tend to doubt that Palamas would have defended the specifics of your peculiar program.

But the last problem, the one that a lot of people here already know about and that you apparently do not, is that I have already had mystical experience of Christ. And that experience leads me to the knowledge that you are wrong. It is clear to me that revelation must be disciplined by teaching, for as it is poured into the old sinful vessel of our thoughts, we are like as not to contaminate and adulterate it according to our own will. For those properly disciplined and of proper temprament, that distortion may be relatively slight (and yet absolute). You give every evidence that you are undisciplined and of rash temprament, and therefore I cannot trust you.
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« Reply #51 on: November 12, 2007, 11:17:36 AM »

Ekhristos, dont worry about why my username is pathofsolitude. How do you know that I am living in solitude at this point in my life? I'm not. I live in a loud house with several other people. So much for your analysis of me. And as for not condemning others, I have not condemned one single person on this forum, but have only pointed out that they are already condemned. Cit John 3:18.
Semantics, and nothing more...  By pointing out that certain people stand already condemned and by claiming to have inside knowledge of who those people are (Protestants, Roman Catholics, and any Orthodox who doesn't agree with your take on hesychasm), are you not in fact placing yourself in the judgment seat and condemning them yourself?
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« Reply #52 on: November 12, 2007, 11:34:45 AM »

Then you better hasten back to Roman Catholicism or Byzantine Orthodoxy. How do *you* know that both of these churches are wrong in their [historically] exclusive beliefs that they alone are the [fullness of, at least] the true Church? Is it because your prancing priests in purple tell you so? Or is it because you use your own private interpretation? Uh oh!

Again, you give alliterative attempts at insulting individuals who do not submit to your personal view.  Yet you claim that you have the Spirit of God while those who do not agree with you do not.  How does such treatment of other people fit with what we have been told are the "fruits of the Spirit" :

"Galatians 5:22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 23gentleness and self-control. Against such things there is no law. (NIV)  "

What are YOUR fruits?  What do you do in real life to show them? 

Or even more importantly from the words of Our Lord Himself "Do to others what you would have them do to you" - Gospel of St. Mathew 7:12.

It is hard sometimes to remember these instructions, but I know that it is how we are to treat other Human Beings.  Does the Spirit teach me/remind me of this? I believe so, but I also had to learn it in other ways so that it might be taken in and kept in my mind to recall.  I remember being a child, I am raising 3 children and I know how I learned and how they learn. 

And you tell Anglicans that they should go to the RC or the EO, yet you yourself are neither from what you have written here.  How do *you* explain away the two Churches assertion to being the True Church?

Quote
There are always going to be myriads of people and churches claiming different things.

To the contrary, there are myriads of people and churches who agree on many things, but not perhaps all.  With the Creeds to lay out the basic *core* points of Christianity there is more agreement then not amongst many.  There is a frame that then may have different customs, practices etc.  But that Jesus Christ is the Son of God and second person of the Trinity, for example is spread over many many Churches. 

Quote
I ask you- what is the *way* by which you decide which "authority" is correct? If this is an external reality for you, I wish you luck, but the chances of you finding the truth that way are very slim.

The first authority is God and the words of Jesus as recorded in the Gospels (that you call "memoirs" which makes them sound so much more subjective then say "historical account".  ) some of which are not hard to understand like the Golden Rule. 

Quote
BTW- Roman Catholics, Protestants, and other wicked heretics are not Hesychasts. So it doesnt surprise me in the least that they have been given over to believe the teachings of demons. The unique feature of the Saints is that they live in the Spirit and experience the light of divine glory. Roman Catholics are stuck in the dark nights of the soul. And Protestants are so bad off that they dont even know that they are in the pitch blackness of the darkest night. I follow the Faith of glory. Until one is in hypostatical and energetic union with my Master they will not know what I am talking about.

Teachings of "demons"...?  like "I believe in One God, the Father almighty"?  Huh Undecided   Just what experience do you personally have with RC or Anglicans that you claim to know what condition they are in?  You are judging others spiritual states, as we have been told by Our Lord *not* to do.

Would you please explain just what you mean by Hesychasts and what you think they do just to help others understand what you think it means?  Is it the "Jesus Prayer"? 

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« Reply #53 on: November 12, 2007, 12:29:45 PM »

To Keble-

I am glad to hear that your mystical experience has atleast some impact on your beliefs. And I am also glad that you dont regard the Church of England, headed by the "Supreme Governor" Her Majesty Queen Elizabeth II, as too much of an authority. Or if you are in the Episcopal religion in the United States I am glad that you do not treat your gay and lesbian clergy as too much of an authority.

Quote
But on the other hand, anyone who looks at the history of mysticism in the church can see that it is rather too often the wide road to heresy.

Most people do not have genuine experience. So yes their false mysticism leads to heresy. I would add that the rational analysis of people who are not genuinely anointed by the Spirit is just as destructive. The fact of the matter is that most "Christian" teachers are in heresy. Actually now more of them are in heresy by their analysis of scripture than by mysticism.

Anyways I want you to know that I am not trying convince you guys of my beliefs by my own authority. I am merely stating the truth. If the truth is in you then what I say will register as the truth to you. I have been wrong many times in my life but I dont think I have been wrong in any of the main points that I have put forward on this forum. The only way for anybody to know is by their own experience. You say that you know by experience that I am wrong. Okay. But I know that you are wrong.

Quote
Oh, and if you knew anything about Anglicanism you'ld know that only bishops wear purple-- not counting lenten/advent vestments, of course.

Actually I do know that. Bishops are priests.
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« Reply #54 on: November 12, 2007, 08:28:35 PM »

This is madness.

........ THIS IS SPARTAAAAAAAAAAAA!!!!
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« Reply #55 on: November 12, 2007, 08:29:40 PM »

^^ROFL!!!!!!! Cheesy Cheesy
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« Reply #56 on: November 12, 2007, 08:37:05 PM »

The human hypostasis IS united to the divine hypostaseis.
Do you even know what "hypostasis" means?

This is taught clearly in Scripture.
Where?
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« Reply #57 on: November 12, 2007, 09:06:05 PM »

I am glad to hear that your mystical experience has atleast some impact on your beliefs. And I am also glad that you dont regard the Church of England, headed by the "Supreme Governor" Her Majesty Queen Elizabeth II, as too much of an authority. Or if you are in the Episcopal religion in the United States I am glad that you do not treat your gay and lesbian clergy as too much of an authority.

It seems to me that you are not very interested in how that experience affects me, especially considering that I said, "And that experience leads me to the knowledge that you are wrong." So when you say that

Quote
Most people do not have genuine experience.

... the obvious question for you is, "Why are you so sure that you are one of the exceptions?"

Quote
Anyways I want you to know that I am not trying convince you guys of my beliefs by my own authority. I am merely stating the truth. If the truth is in you then what I say will register as the truth to you. I have been wrong many times in my life but I dont think I have been wrong in any of the main points that I have put forward on this forum. The only way for anybody to know is by their own experience. You say that you know by experience that I am wrong. Okay. But I know that you are wrong.

...which is why what you are doing isn't good enough. Or rather, why I don't think you understand what you are doing, because you refuse to criticize it. Whether or not you intend to convince us by your own authority, that has been, inconsistently, the way in which you have presented yourself. But at the same time it is very obvious that you are in fact taught, either by yourself or another. And I'm betting on another, and that you don't appreciate that this has happened.
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« Reply #58 on: November 12, 2007, 11:14:53 PM »

Mostly what I have to say is esoteric knowledge.
Hmmmm...  You claim to have esoteric knowledge, and that this esoteric knowledge alone can save.  Sounds kinda Gnostic to me.  I think St. Irenaeus had some words to say about how we could recognize the Gnostic heresies and heretics and where truth was truly to be found.

Against Heresies, Book III, Chapter IV (published here:  http://www.ccel.org/ccel/schaff/anf01.ix.iv.v.html)
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Since therefore we have such proofs, it is not necessary to seek the truth among others which it is easy to obtain from the Church; since the apostles, like a rich man [depositing his money] in a bank, lodged in her hands most copiously all things pertaining to the truth: so that every man, whosoever will, can draw from her the water of life.  (Rev. xxii. 17.)  For she is the entrance to life; all others are thieves and robbers. On this account are we bound to avoid them, but to make choice of the thing pertaining to the Church with the utmost diligence, and to lay hold of the tradition of the truth. For how stands the case? Suppose there arise a dispute relative to some important question among us, should we not have recourse to the most ancient Churches with which the apostles held constant intercourse, and learn from them what is certain and clear in regard to the present question? For how should it be if the apostles themselves had not left us writings? Would it not be necessary, [in that case,] to follow the course of the tradition which they handed down to those to whom they did commit the Churches?
(emphasis mine)
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« Reply #59 on: November 12, 2007, 11:40:39 PM »

........ THIS IS SPARTAAAAAAAAAAAA!!!!



 Cheesy Cheesy Cheesy Cheesy Cheesy

I can't help it...

THIS IS........................SPINAL TAP!!!!!!!!!!!

 Wink

Ebor
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« Reply #60 on: November 13, 2007, 12:00:09 AM »

I cant quote him right now because I dont own any of his books. I read them at the library.

Perhaps you might find www.CCEL.org a most useful source for looking up early Christian writings on-line.  Then you could provide links or other references in place of vague recollections.  Taking notes can also be helpful to keep information clearly in ones mind and helps prevent some mis-statings of what is actually written.

Quote
Mostly what I have to say is esoteric knowledge.

And how did you come by such hidden, exclusive, hidden knowledge please?  Will you tell us what you did to acquire it?

Things that are "esoteric" are considered to be special, and not for the common person but for the "Inner Ring" to cite C. S. Lewis' phrase.  Such perceived exclusivity can be a temptation to Pride, superiority and patronizing hoi polloi

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I am starting to see that its basically pointless for me to try to convince people about it by computer. You just have to see for yourselves. No patristic citations will help you if you guys reject what Hesychast St John says. Looks like I am soon going into early retirement from OCnet. I'm sure that will make many followers of Mr Bartholomew, Mr Ratzinger, and Mr Rowan Williams very happy.

So far, I'm sorry, the "Fruits" that I have seen with such as the above are disdain, discourtesy (as you are purposely using "Mr." to be offensive, who are *you* to be the arbiter of what other people's titles are?), unkindness (mocking insults to others) and a lack of humility.

What do you do in real life, away from the computer to walk in the footsteps of Christ? 

Ebor
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« Reply #61 on: November 13, 2007, 01:32:04 AM »

Wow. Ex Catholic?

My suspicion is that he/she/it is...or a vagantes group member. I find her/him/it amusing.

Pax,
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« Reply #62 on: November 13, 2007, 04:35:02 AM »

You could be making a simple intellectual mistake. Thats very easy to do.

Of course, I can do erring easily, but in this case I can't see my mistake, while it seems to me your attitude implies several ones.

This simply makes no sense. Jesus said that they *are* children of the devil.

Yes, they are for what they do (they wish evil), not for what they've been created. Just in the verses you quoted. Romans 5-6, too. Everywhere. If it wasn't such, it would mean:
1) it wouldn't be God alone who is the Creator
1.1) satan would be able to create, too, so he would be called a creator, as well as God would be called a creator and not the Creator;
1.2) satan wouldn't be able only to seduce and deceive, he'd have real power;
1.3) it would amount to equal power of God and our eternal archenemy, whom we renounce (through our godfather) at our baptism;
1.4) it would imply an error of God, since not all of us would be created in His image, some of us would be delivered to our archenemy not for what we do of our free will, but for what we are;

2) we would be placed under the power of satan hopelessly, both before and after the incarnation of the Holy Spirit as Jesus Christ;
2.1) one would have to wonder why Son did incarnate as Jesus Christ, died and have resurrected, if not to free us by defeating our archenemy by conquoring death as the single and only thing over which satan does have power?
2.2) it would divide men in two camps, one of which would be damned for what they are, without the hope for repentance, while the other one would be destined for salvation, no matter what they do and how grave their sinning would be;
2.2.1) if 2.2. applies, why do we have free will?
2.2.1.1) if we (at least those of us in wrong camp) don't have free will to resist devil, (and reason to distinct evil from good), how come we (they) are created in the image of God?

It seems to me your conclusions are in disharmony with the consequences of three fundamental notions about God - His Goodness, Omnipotence and Justice.

If every man is your brother then you are in Satan's family. I am personally no longer "in Adam" but am "in Christ." ...hink of all the most wicked sinners. You are saying that you are in their family.

I'm baptized in Christ, too, that's why Orthodox Christians are my brothers and sisters in Christ. Heterodox Christians are my ill brothers (illness, desease) since I dare not calling them brothers, while those not being baptized are still my brothers and sisters in Adam.

And I am among the sinners and nothing but sinners. They are my family. Though I'd refrain from calling us "wicked". Perhaps weak of our own, but strong of Holy Spirit. We call ourselves Church.

Now, would you point to my mistakes placing me into the satan's family?
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« Reply #63 on: November 13, 2007, 09:33:59 AM »

Do you even know what "hypostasis" means?
Where?

A hypostasis is a concrete nature.

Scripture teaches that God and the Christian are united. This does not mean that God and the Christian are numerically one hypostasis. It just means that the TWO hypostaseis are united.

If you really want to debate me on this then we should probably start another thread eh?
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« Reply #64 on: November 13, 2007, 09:39:55 AM »

To orthodoxlurker-

I am not going to debate your useless scholasticism. My Lord tells me that bad people *ARE* children of the devil. I believe Jesus Christ and not your dialectic.
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« Reply #65 on: November 13, 2007, 09:44:32 AM »

To Ebor-

The esoteric knowledge I am talking about is simply the gnosis that is available to all genuinely anointed Christians. If the Spirit is in you then you can go within yourself and the Lord God will speak to you. He will reveal to you secrets that are hidden from the rest of the world.

You can call this gnosticism if you want. I really dont care. The fact is that its exactly what St Paul talks about. Please dont make me break out the memoirs again. I am not your teacher. Go read for yourself.
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« Reply #66 on: November 13, 2007, 09:50:12 AM »

A hypostasis is a concrete nature.

Scripture teaches that God and the Christian are united. This does not mean that God and the Christian are numerically one hypostasis. It just means that the TWO hypostaseis are united.

If you really want to debate me on this then we should probably start another thread eh?

You could have just written , "No, I don't".  Wink
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« Reply #67 on: November 13, 2007, 09:54:09 AM »

A hypostasis is a concrete nature.
Ummm...No it isn't.
Like I said:
Frankly, I don't think you know your a** from your elbow, let alone how to employ basic Orthodox Theological terms. So why don't you just go off and follow your "path of solitude" and stop wasting our time with your strange theories?
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« Reply #68 on: November 13, 2007, 09:57:29 AM »

Quote from: pathofsolitude
A hypostasis is a concrete nature.

No, the closest meaning in English would be person, more precisely should be "the collection/summa of personal properties" (or some more knowleadgable Greek speaking should correct my error).

I am not going to debate your useless scholasticism. My Lord tells me that bad people *ARE* children of the devil. I believe Jesus Christ and not your dialectic.

The fact is, there was no scholasticism in my reasoning, just the consequences to the harmony of ultimatelly logical and consistent Orthodox Faith.

Your attitude is rellying on basically dualistic comprehension of God and is completely strange to Orthodoxy. Consequently, it isn't me who is apostating. And everybody can see you offered no reasoning.

Edit: And of course, by your interpretation of Matt 13:38, John 8:44 and 1 John 3:8 and 3:10, you disregard His own words. You cat the message to halves, taking one half and abandoning the other one.

Not to mention the whole bunch of Holy Fathers, starting with St. Athanasios the Great.
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« Reply #69 on: November 13, 2007, 10:14:04 AM »

...  double post
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« Reply #70 on: November 13, 2007, 10:17:15 AM »

This is crazy. A hypostasis is a concrete, particular, existent nature. In other words, not merely ousia in the abstract, but rather an actual thing existing in reality.

In response to orthodoxlurker- So do you think my computer, which is a hypostasis, is a person? Not all hypostaseis are persons. Only rational ones are.

I am beginning to wonder about you guys.
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« Reply #71 on: November 13, 2007, 10:20:50 AM »

So what are you going to accuse me of now, ozgeorge? A moment ago you said I was Nestorian because I believe that two hypostaseis can be united without becoming one hypostasis. And now I guess you will say that I am a Monophysite because of my definition of hypostasis. Oh boy...
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« Reply #72 on: November 13, 2007, 10:27:47 AM »

This is crazy. A hypostasis is a concrete, particular, existent nature.
No. That's a Physis.

In other words, not merely ousia in the abstract,
"Ousia in the abstract"? Huh How can the substance and essence of something be "abstract"?

but rather an actual thing existing in reality.
So, are you saying that its ousia does not exist in reality? Huh

I am beginning to wonder about you guys.
Really? You're only beginning to wonder? I had you pegged ages ago.

So what are you going to accuse me of now, ozgeorge?
Ignorance.
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« Reply #73 on: November 13, 2007, 11:15:35 AM »

No. That's a Physis.

Physis and hypostasis are basically the same thing.

Quote
"Ousia in the abstract"? Huh How can the substance and essence of something be "abstract"?
So, are you saying that its ousia does not exist in reality? Huh

By "ousia in the abstract" I mean the *universal* nature. Is this too hard for you to figure out?

Quote
I had you pegged ages ago.

Riiight. Why are you debating me over the most PATHETIC semantics??? Is that what you have me pegged on?

At least the things I make a big deal about on the forum are substantial [no pun intended].
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« Reply #74 on: November 13, 2007, 11:24:34 AM »

Physis and hypostasis are basically the same thing.
No they aren't.

By "ousia in the abstract" I mean the *universal* nature. Is this too hard for you to figure out?
Yeah, it is kind of hard to figure out. So now you are saying that ousia, physis and hypostasis are all basically the same thing....Huh And what the heck is the "universal nature"?

Riiight. Why are you debating me over the most PATHETIC semantics??? Is that what you have me pegged on?
I had you pegged as ignorant and as not knowing what you are talking about. And you just keep proving me right.

At least the things I make a big deal about on the forum are substantial [no pun intended].
I know you think they are substantial, but really, how substantial can they be when the basis of your premises don't stand up to even minor scrutiny?
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« Reply #75 on: November 13, 2007, 12:06:31 PM »

pathofsolitude:

Perhaps it would help if you gave us definitions as you understand them to the following words:

hypostasis

physis

ousia


That way we can all be sure to be talking about the same things before any sort of discussion begins. 

In the spirit of full disclosure, so to speak, I would also call upon ozgeorge to give his definitions of the above terms.

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« Reply #76 on: November 13, 2007, 12:17:10 PM »

pathofsolitude:

Perhaps it would help if you gave us definitions as you understand them to the following words:

hypostasis

physis

ousia
PoS did so:
A hypostasis is a concrete nature.
Physis and hypostasis are basically the same thing.
By "ousia in the abstract" I mean the *universal* nature. Is this too hard for you to figure out?
Don't you listen?

That way we can all be sure to be talking about the same things before any sort of discussion begins. 
PoS should have thought of that before deciding to insult everyone and tell us we're crazy, don't you think? Wink

In the spirit of full disclosure, so to speak, I would also call upon ozgeorge to give his definitions of the above terms.
And do PoS' homework that he/she should have done before opening his/her mouth? Nah uh!
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« Reply #77 on: November 13, 2007, 12:26:01 PM »

ozgeorge,

Hey, I'm just trying to see if we can actually do something constructive instead of this "Ya huh!" and "Na uh!" argument we have going here.  If you're so inclined to continue to play tug tug with PoS, I guess I'll just shut up.
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« Reply #78 on: November 13, 2007, 12:28:59 PM »

Hey, I know it's well intentioned Shultz, and God bless you for it!
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« Reply #79 on: November 13, 2007, 12:31:29 PM »

This is pure scientific observation. I just want to see how deep a pit PoS is prepared to dig for him/herself before admitting he/she doesn't know what he/she is talking about.
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« Reply #80 on: November 13, 2007, 12:36:34 PM »

deciding to insult everyone and tell us we're crazy

I said "this" [the arguement] is crazy. I never said anyone is crazy. On the other hand you over and over again call me "ignorant" and say I "dont know my elbow from my a**" and other such things. If you think I am condemned by God for not agreeing with your pointless scholasticism then just say so and leave it at that. Really we dont need this profanity.

To Schultz- As ozgeorge said, I already gave my definitions of hypostasis, physis, and ousia.

THIS DISCUSSION IS SO RIDICULOUS THAT I'M SIMPLY NOT GOING TO TALK ABOUT IT ANY MORE. YOU CAN GO ON AND ON ABOUT IT BUT I AM DONE. I ONLY TALK ABOUT SUBSTANTIAL THINGS.
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« Reply #81 on: November 13, 2007, 12:41:30 PM »

I said "this" [the arguement] is crazy. I never said anyone is crazy. On the other hand you over and over again call me "ignorant" and say I "dont know my elbow from my a**" and other such things. If you think I am condemned by God for not agreeing with your pointless scholasticism then just say so and leave it at that. Really we dont need this profanity.

To Schultz- As ozgeorge said, I already gave my definitions of hypostasis, physis, and ousia.

THIS DISCUSSION IS SO RIDICULOUS THAT I'M SIMPLY NOT GOING TO TALK ABOUT IT ANY MORE. YOU CAN GO ON AND ON ABOUT IT BUT I AM DONE. I ONLY TALK ABOUT SUBSTANTIAL THINGS.

Personally, I think we should lock any thread you post in, but hey, that's just me.
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« Reply #82 on: November 13, 2007, 12:48:04 PM »

I already gave my definitions of hypostasis, physis, and ousia.
See? Told ya schultz Wink

THIS DISCUSSION IS SO RIDICULOUS THAT I'M SIMPLY NOT GOING TO TALK ABOUT IT ANY MORE.
Yep. Your definitions sure are ridiculous.

I ONLY TALK ABOUT SUBSTANTIAL THINGS.
Oh, I think Physis, Ousia and Hypostasis are pretty substantial things- don't you? They are if you worship The Holy Trinity and Confess the Second Person to be the Theanthropos. I mean, we should know Whom it is that we claim to worship, shouldn't we?
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« Reply #83 on: November 13, 2007, 12:52:10 PM »

Personally, I think we should lock any thread you post in, but hey, that's just me.
Ah, but then the trolls win don't they? Why should everyone else suffer because someone wants to make inane posts?
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« Reply #84 on: November 13, 2007, 12:54:23 PM »

Ah, but then the trolls win don't they? Why should everyone else suffer because someone wants to make inane posts?

Hmm...okay, then create a new sub-forum called "the sandbox" and move PoS's threads there. Tongue
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« Reply #85 on: November 13, 2007, 12:57:52 PM »


Perhaps it would help if you gave us definitions as you understand them to the following words:

hypostasis

physis

ousia


That way we can all be sure to be talking about the same things before any sort of discussion begins. 

In the spirit of full disclosure, so to speak, I would also call upon ozgeorge to give his definitions of the above terms.

Salve!

Could someone 'educated' define these terms so, at least, I could follow along...  Huh
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« Reply #86 on: November 13, 2007, 12:59:27 PM »

Hmm...okay, then create a new sub-forum called "the sandbox" and move PoS's threads there. Tongue
Actually not a bad idea. I don't just mean for PoS' posts, but for anyone who starts taking over and posting everywhere with this kind of inane nonsense. May be we could call it "the soap box" so it gives them the sense of importance they feel they have?
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« Reply #87 on: November 13, 2007, 01:07:46 PM »

Could someone 'educated' define this terms so, at least, I could follow along...  Huh
I ain't edjukated, but these are basic Orthodox theological terms.

"Hypostasis" is closely translated as "Person".
"Physis" is closely translated as "Nature".
"Ousia" is closely translated as "Essence/Substance/Being".

For example, the Holy Trinity is Three Hypostases sharing One Ousia. Christ is One Hypostasis in which are united a Divine Physis and a Human Physis and Who shares the same Ousia (is "homoousios") with the Father.
You are one hypostasis with a human physis.
Etc...etc...
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« Reply #88 on: November 13, 2007, 01:19:58 PM »

I ain't edjukated, but these are basic Orthodox theological terms.

"Hypostasis" is closely translated as "Person".
"Physis" is closely translated as "Nature".
"Ousia" is closely translated as "Essence/Substance/Being".

For example, the Holy Trinity is Three Hypostases sharing One Ousia. Christ is One Hypostasis in which are united a Divine Physis and a Human Physis and Who shares the same Ousia (is "homoousios") with the Father.

Thanks ozgeorge! These are all in the Creed aren't they?

Quote
You are one hypostasis with a human physis.
Etc...etc...

Shoot, I wanted to have more, like the big man upstairs!  Tongue
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« Reply #89 on: November 13, 2007, 01:29:12 PM »

Thanks ozgeorge! These are all in the Creed aren't they?
Ousia directly is in the Creed. ("homousios to Patri"- literally: "the same ousia as the Father". This is usually translated in English as "One in Essence with the Father". )
Physis is implied by "became man" ("enanthropoisanta").
"Hypostasis" is also implied since Each Hypostasis of the Trinity is addressed as God in the Creed, and yet the Creed opens with the words: "I believe in One God".
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« Reply #90 on: November 13, 2007, 01:41:29 PM »

Ousia directly is in the Creed. ("homousios to Patri"- literally: "the same ousia as the Father". This is usually translated in English as "One in Essence with the Father". )
Physis is implied by "became man" ("enanthropoisanta").
"Hypostasis" is also implied since Each Hypostasis of the Trinity is addressed as God in the Creed, and yet the Creed opens with the words: "I believe in One God".

Yes, this sounds awesome but wasn't this really fleshed out in a Council... St. Athanasius is coming to mind.
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« Reply #91 on: November 13, 2007, 02:03:35 PM »

...
"Hypostasis" is closely translated as "Person".
"Physis" is closely translated as "Nature".
"Ousia" is closely translated as "Essence/Substance/Being".

There used to be at least one thread at now vanished EC CAF archive about the meaning of these words.

I've learned there that Copts, for instance, understood hypostasis as physis, so that's why they rejected Chalcedon. We were speaking about two natures, they understood it as two persons.

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« Reply #92 on: November 13, 2007, 02:06:32 PM »

There used to be at least one thread at now vanished EC CAF archive about the meaning of these words.

I've learned there that Copts, for instance, understood hypostasis as physis, so that's why they rejected Chalcedon. We were speaking about two natures, they understood it as two persons.

I understand this was addressed to ozgeorge but would you mind elaborating on this a bit? I'm still learning so I'd appreciate it.
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« Reply #93 on: November 13, 2007, 02:17:42 PM »

Hi guys. I hope ya'll are having fun.

I just thought I would add something unrelated for a moment. If you scroll all the way down to the end of the page, one of the "tags" says: "trollodox." Funny funny.
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« Reply #94 on: November 13, 2007, 03:51:47 PM »

Hi guys. I hope ya'll are having fun.

I just thought I would add something unrelated for a moment. If you scroll all the way down to the end of the page, one of the "tags" says: "trollodox." Funny funny.

Is that the name of the 10 million year old tetrapod found in the ancient archiological digs in Alexandria? Grin
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« Reply #95 on: November 13, 2007, 03:55:08 PM »

Troglodox?
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« Reply #96 on: November 13, 2007, 04:49:28 PM »

I ONLY TALK ABOUT SUBSTANTIAL THINGS.

And none of my questions to you are "substantial"?

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« Reply #97 on: November 14, 2007, 01:52:27 AM »

I am not your teacher.
Then why are you here if not to teach us?  And if you presume to teach us, does that not mean you anointed yourself to be our teacher?
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« Reply #98 on: November 14, 2007, 07:20:12 AM »

And none of my questions to you are "substantial"?

Ebor

Hi Ebor. I was only talking to ozgeorge when I said that. Yes your questions were substantial. Unfortunately the thread has been hijacked by scholastics.
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« Reply #99 on: November 14, 2007, 08:53:12 AM »

Milarkey. That is the weakest excuse for your avoidance of answering direct questions I've ever read on ANY forum.
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« Reply #100 on: November 14, 2007, 09:17:07 AM »

Milarkey. That is the weakest excuse for your avoidance of answering direct questions I've ever read on ANY forum.

(Chanted majesticly) A-MEN.
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« Reply #101 on: November 16, 2007, 07:27:55 AM »

I understand this was addressed to ozgeorge but would you mind elaborating on this a bit? I'm still learning so I'd appreciate it.

Will do once the time allows, hopefully during this weekend!
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