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Author Topic: catholic answers forum bars orthodox dicussion  (Read 272479 times) Average Rating: 0
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Peter J
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« Reply #1575 on: June 10, 2008, 08:17:35 PM »

I don't agree with the closing of the Eastern Christianity forum and replacing it with a weaker, more sanitized version. But I will have to side with CAF on this one for being consistent with their new subforum's stated purpose. If the CAF mods consider Orthodoxy as "non-Catholic," well, I and others do not agree but it is their site. Smiley

I thought they were being consistent -- i.e. the Eastern Catholicism forum is for discussing Eastern Catholicsm, discussion of Eastern Orthodoxy belongs in the "Non-Catholic Religions" forum. But now it's coming to light that diatribes by Eastern Catholics against Eastern Orthodoxy are perfectly welcome in ECF-CA. (If that isn't clear just from the post that I linked to, then read the entire thread.)
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« Reply #1576 on: June 10, 2008, 09:39:40 PM »

It is a constant reiteration that the Orthodox are not catholic.
We are considered 'Catholic' enough to be welcomed to receive the body and blood at their mass, but not to post in their forum. It seems schizophrenic to me

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« Reply #1577 on: June 10, 2008, 09:58:29 PM »

How? Good ol Sparky banned me because I was defending Holy Orthodoxy. And she was quite nasty about it. Of course it continues to seem like I am an active member.

I am okay with it though. The members there do not seem very Eastern oriented (including their own in communion with Rome). I sensed much anger there.

I was directed to this thread, and I'm sorry to intrude. Not sure it'll make much difference what I say, as Catholics (especially Catholic moderators) are being made out to be the bad guys...but....

I do not recall your username on DCF, but I do recall one new Orthodox poster who was acting like a troll. We get a lot of trolls at DCF, and when someone comes in all guns blazing, is insulting to other posters and does not carry on a reasonable conversation - they tend to get banned because we believe they are a troll. It is possible I misread your intention, and I jumped on the trigger too soon, thinking that you were, in fact, simply another troll. If you were this person, you were, to my perception, just one more in a long line of trolls we had to deal with that day. I was a bit tired and frazzled. Meanwhile, we have several Eastern Orthodox posters on DCF, they are really respectful and great contributors to the community there. I find their spirituality quite admirable.

So, long story short - you weren't banned because you were defending Orthodoxy (if you are the person I'm thinking of) you were banned because I thought you were a troll.

If you want to give me your username over there, I can go back and review what it was that might have given me that impression. But if you are the one I'm thinking of, that was the reason.

Meanwhile - sorry again to intrude on the conversation.
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« Reply #1578 on: June 10, 2008, 10:17:38 PM »

We are considered 'Catholic' enough to be welcomed to receive the body and blood at their mass, but not to post in their forum. It seems schizophrenic to me

John

I think it is schizophrenic, but not in the way you're thinking. Rather, it illustrates the enormous disconnect between Official Catholicism (which determines who can receive communion) and Popular Catholicism (which determines what can be posted on ECF-CA).

Do you imagine there's much similarity between the behavior of (some) Catholics on ECF-CA, and the behavior of Catholics at meetings of the International Commission?
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« Reply #1579 on: June 10, 2008, 10:20:47 PM »

Sorry, I had a thought to share on the whole CAF situation.

I don't really post on CAF. I have an account there, and I rarely go there. But as I understand it, the situation is something like this.

You are invited to a neighbor's house. You go in, make yourself at home, kick off your shoes, eat their food, smoke their cigars (if you smoke), drink all their beer and you don't leave. You mock their cooking, their decor, their family and friends. Then, other people who come in, you do your level best to turn them against your hosts. You do this for a good long time. How long do you think they're going to let you stick around?

This is the situation with CAF. From what I understand, and I did poke my nose in the forum in question a couple of times and I was horrified, I saw the Church being routinely insulted, mocked and an active tendency to try to convert Catholics from their faith. These were your hosts. Needless to say, I didn't post or stick around, but surely you cannot blame your hosts, after several years of being charitable, for finally saying: "Okay, it's time to go find your own playground. You've had your fun and insulted us enough."

Again, I don't speak for CAF. I don't post there. But I'm only going by perception. And for what it's worth, that is the general perception in Catholic circles. Those of you who were banned, you made yourselves unwelcome to your hosts and they finally showed you the door. You should give them credit for allowing you to stick around as long as they did.

And, for what it's worth, I won't stick around here and make myself unwelcome. I've already imposed on your hospitality long enough. I'll look for replies, but...I would not want to be a burden.

May you be eternally blessed with Christ's peace.
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« Reply #1580 on: June 11, 2008, 01:05:45 AM »

Sorry, I had a thought to share on the whole CAF situation.

I don't really post on CAF. I have an account there, and I rarely go there. But as I understand it, the situation is something like this.

You are invited to a neighbor's house. You go in, make yourself at home, kick off your shoes, eat their food, smoke their cigars (if you smoke), drink all their beer and you don't leave. You mock their cooking, their decor, their family and friends. Then, other people who come in, you do your level best to turn them against your hosts. You do this for a good long time. How long do you think they're going to let you stick around?

This is the situation with CAF. From what I understand, and I did poke my nose in the forum in question a couple of times and I was horrified, I saw the Church being routinely insulted, mocked and an active tendency to try to convert Catholics from their faith. These were your hosts. Needless to say, I didn't post or stick around, but surely you cannot blame your hosts, after several years of being charitable, for finally saying: "Okay, it's time to go find your own playground. You've had your fun and insulted us enough."

Again, I don't speak for CAF. I don't post there. But I'm only going by perception. And for what it's worth, that is the general perception in Catholic circles. Those of you who were banned, you made yourselves unwelcome to your hosts and they finally showed you the door. You should give them credit for allowing you to stick around as long as they did.

And, for what it's worth, I won't stick around here and make myself unwelcome. I've already imposed on your hospitality long enough. I'll look for replies, but...I would not want to be a burden.

May you be eternally blessed with Christ's peace.

Well, if THAT was what was going on, then why not simply SAY SO??  Just say: "Look - We are tired of our Church being trashed and our views being insulted by Orthodox posters, and we are going to ban all of them and remove the whole section and start a new section instead that does not tolerate the Orthodox presence."

Instead, they pretended they had not banned virtually all the Orthodox posters...  And gave no announcement or explanation of the removal of the section...  It was a place of spirited debate, and Rome was losing, and when their apologists, who were theological bullies accustomed to plowing their official line over their Protestant counterparts, came in and tried bullying the Orthodox, they were handed their defective heads...  The bullying of the Orthodox by Rome was OK, but the Roman bullies getting beat up by the Orthodox was not, you see...

There really is no way to get around the fact that it was the SUCCESS of the Orthodox in those discussions that frosted the cake of their removal...  Had they been but bitter and ineffectual and snide complainers, they would have been kept around as museum pieces for Roman derision...  But you see, it was the conversions to Orthodoxy on the part of so many Eastern Catholics that pushed it over the edge, and the fact that Rome was LOSING the debates, and the Roman understanding of the Orthodox-Rome Schism was being shown to be false, and the theology of Rome too...  Rome simply had no answers against us there, so they got rid of us and concealed what they did...  It is that simple...

Arsenios
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« Reply #1581 on: June 11, 2008, 01:43:50 AM »

And, for what it's worth, I won't stick around here and make myself unwelcome. I've already imposed on your hospitality long enough. I'll look for replies, but...I would not want to be a burden.

May you be eternally blessed with Christ's peace.

I'll leave the rest of your post aside, but I'd like to at least note the following: you are most certainly welcome here.  Always.  You're not intruding, or overstaying your welcome.  Eat the food, please (it's ethnic food, but it's healthy, and very flavor-ful!).

All we ask are the following: you're welcome to post your perspective and defend your faith - however if you chose to do so outside of the Orthodox-Catholic subforum, just make sure people know that you're speaking from a Roman Catholic perspective; please be charitable; keep the heavy polemics to the unmoderated Private fora (which can be accessed if you send a PM to FrChris requesting access).
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« Reply #1582 on: June 11, 2008, 07:07:52 AM »

Gregory Palamas was a good voice to have on the EC forum.  He was a voice who didn't simply surrender to western thinking.  It seems like there are very few left on that forum who haven't just assumed the Latin theology.  Ghosty offers a good perspective but he is the only one who consistently posts who offers anything but Latin theology.  There are several who post once in a while - LakaYaRabb, ronyodish, yeshua - who are good but there are very few who post more than a couple posts a week.
I consider Ronyodish to be a Latinized Easterner.


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Please note that Ronyodish answers this charge of being a "Latinized Eastener" in the following thread: http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,16412.0.html
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« Reply #1583 on: June 11, 2008, 07:10:06 AM »

Don't be shy.  Anyone who reads CAF & ByzCath on a regular basis knows that A Simple Sinner (to name but one) utilizes this strategy quite frequently.  It is rather odd how some Eastern Catholics prey upon other Eastern Catholics, but seems to the norm on both forums (CAF moreso than ByzCath) at present.
I rarely agree with A Simple Sinner, but I never take our disagreements personally.
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« Reply #1584 on: June 11, 2008, 07:46:01 AM »

My brothers and sisters,

I’ve read this thread virtually from the time it was begun and I want to say a few things about it. Let me begin with some background before I get into the circumstances that birthed this protest movement and those which have continued to nourish it.

. . .

Joe
Joe,

I read your post with great interest, and – for what it is worth – I always found your moderation to be fair and generous.

God grant you many years, many happy years!

Todd
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« Reply #1585 on: June 11, 2008, 08:01:03 AM »

And, for what it's worth, I won't stick around here and make myself unwelcome. I've already imposed on your hospitality long enough.

Yeah, two posts ... you've really been making a nuisance of yourself, haven't you? Huh
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« Reply #1586 on: June 11, 2008, 08:13:09 AM »

Well, if THAT was what was going on, then why not simply SAY SO??  Just say: "Look - We are tired of our Church being trashed and our views being insulted by Orthodox posters, and we are going to ban all of them and remove the whole section and start a new section instead that does not tolerate the Orthodox presence."

I don't know what their policy is on banning. Again, I'm not a moderator over there. The only thing I know is that there were many, many complaints made about Orthodox behavior, and apparently when the higher ups (namely the man Karl Keating or someone else on the main staff who pays good money to run that forum) finally looked, he/they pulled the plug, lock, stock and barrel. If your eye offends you pluck it out and all that.

Quote
Instead, they pretended they had not banned virtually all the Orthodox posters...  And gave no announcement or explanation of the removal of the section...

Read their TOS. They don't have to give warning, as I understand it.

Quote
It was a place of spirited debate, and Rome was losing, and when their apologists, who were theological bullies accustomed to plowing their official line over their Protestant counterparts, came in and tried bullying the Orthodox, they were handed their defective heads...  The bullying of the Orthodox by Rome was OK, but the Roman bullies getting beat up by the Orthodox was not, you see...

Well, you see...the goal should not be to bully or beat up on anyone. That is a lack of Christian charity, is it not? Who is the one who should be the better example of Christ's charity?

Quote
There really is no way to get around the fact that it was the SUCCESS of the Orthodox in those discussions that frosted the cake of their removal... 

Is there really success in causing more division and hatred rather than charity? Really?

Think about it. The root of our divisions (all of them, Orthodox, Catholic, and even Protestant) is rooted in human pride, the deadliest of all sins. With the Protestants it is to make each individual their own pope. With the Orthodox, they have no humility and therefore "non servum" (that is my perception, for what it's worth, and I do not think it is far off the mark). With Rome a sense of intellectual and spiritual superiority. We are all guilty of it.  The goal should be to break that cycle, but since we are all rooted in ugly pride it will not happen. And your pride is exhibited right here:


Quote
Had they been but bitter and ineffectual and snide complainers, they would have been kept around as museum pieces for Roman derision...  But you see, it was the conversions to Orthodoxy on the part of so many Eastern Catholics that pushed it over the edge, and the fact that Rome was LOSING the debates, and the Roman understanding of the Orthodox-Rome Schism was being shown to be false, and the theology of Rome too...  Rome simply had no answers against us there, so they got rid of us and concealed what they did...  It is that simple...

Arsenios

Since Catholic Answers is a Catholic organization whose goal is to defend the Catholic faith, I think converting Catholics to commit schism and therefore mortal sin would be upsetting to the board's owners, don't you think? It really is what I described above - you went in, ate their food, drank all their beer, then proceeded to turn the hosts' other visitors and family members against them.

Perhaps you're right. Perhaps you are better at debate and managed to convince some people to your argument. You won a few souls to your cause. Bully for you. But what did you really accomplish? A lot more hurt, a lot more pain, a lot more division in the Body of Christ.

Congratulations! I'm sure our Lord is happy.
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« Reply #1587 on: June 11, 2008, 08:21:01 AM »

Yeah, two posts ... you've really been making a nuisance of yourself, haven't you? Huh

Well, for now. I'll check back on this thread occasionally. I can't be a regular poster. No time, really. I'm already a mod on DCF and I have a book to finish writing...and its deadline is calling me. Smiley

But thank you to the moderator who said I was welcome. I appreciate it. I just won't go into other fora, because...well...charity is something I have been working on with my confessor, and I see arguing as a near occasion of sin. Thanks, though.


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« Reply #1588 on: June 11, 2008, 08:44:08 AM »

I do not recall your username on DCF, but I do recall one new Orthodox poster who was acting like a troll. We get a lot of trolls at DCF, and when someone comes in all guns blazing, is insulting to other posters and does not carry on a reasonable conversation - they tend to get banned because we believe they are a troll. It is possible I misread your intention, and I jumped on the trigger too soon, thinking that you were, in fact, simply another troll. If you were this person, you were, to my perception, just one more in a long line of trolls we had to deal with that day. I was a bit tired and frazzled. Meanwhile, we have several Eastern Orthodox posters on DCF, they are really respectful and great contributors to the community there. I find their spirituality quite admirable.

So, long story short - you weren't banned because you were defending Orthodoxy (if you are the person I'm thinking of) you were banned because I thought you were a troll.

If you want to give me your username over there, I can go back and review what it was that might have given me that impression. But if you are the one I'm thinking of, that was the reason.

Yes sparky. I am one and the same. I had never been treated so rudely by a moderator on a forum (I have been on CAF for four years and I visit various other fora). You insulted me continuously--and you referred to me as a troll in numerous posts. You had some terribly uncharitable things to say about The Orthodox Church in America. You ended the discussion (after you banned me) by telling me not to let the door hit me in the "hind quarters" on the way out. Siggy and other members of that forum have tried to contact me since then (I see the messages pop up on my e-mail) but it seems that I have no way to respond. Even to siggy--it looks like I am still an active member!!! All I ask of you (because it may be an oversight on your part) is that you place banned under my name so as not to deceive the other members.

Thank you and God bless!
Mickey (aka Ignatius)
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« Reply #1589 on: June 11, 2008, 08:47:32 AM »

I don't know what their policy is on banning. Again, I'm not a moderator over there. The only thing I know is that there were many, many complaints made about Orthodox behavior, and apparently when the higher ups (namely the man Karl Keating or someone else on the main staff who pays good money to run that forum) finally looked, he/they pulled the plug, lock, stock and barrel. If your eye offends you pluck it out and all that.

I think the key word in that last sentence is "your". The Lord did not add "And if your neighbor's eye offends, pluck it out too."

Well, you see...the goal should not be to bully or beat up on anyone. That is a lack of Christian charity, is it not? Who is the one who should be the better example of Christ's charity?

The Catholics.
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« Reply #1590 on: June 11, 2008, 09:04:31 AM »

Well, you see...the goal should not be to bully or beat up on anyone. That is a lack of Christian charity, is it not?

Indeed!  Wink

With the Orthodox, they have no humility

Really???

Perhaps you're right. Perhaps you are better at debate and managed to convince some people to your argument. You won a few souls to your cause. Bully for you. But what did you really accomplish? A lot more hurt, a lot more pain, a lot more division in the Body of Christ.

You solved the dilemma! The Orthodox posters were better debaters!

No Sparky.

It is all about truth. The truth always shines forth like a beacon of light. The Orthodox faith, that Pearl of Great Price, will always stand for the truth.

Voices were silenced by deceptive means. Members were banned without being so labeled (like you did to me).

The action speaks for itself.





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« Reply #1591 on: June 11, 2008, 09:19:09 AM »

Indeed!  Wink

Really???

You solved the dilemma! The Orthodox posters were better debaters!

No Sparky.

It is all about truth. The truth always shines forth like a beacon of light. The Orthodox faith, that Pearl of Great Price, will always stand for the truth.

Voices were silenced by deceptive means. Members were banned without being so labeled (like you did to me).

The action speaks for itself.

You're welcome to believe that. But if you're really into truth, you'd take a long, hard look at your own behavior and pride. Is there really something to champion that you may have been the better debaters? I don't know. I didn't stick around to see. But if you were, does it really matter? You caused more division. Again, good for you.

Regarding messages you received: anyone who was registered at DCF at any time received those messages because the site underwent renovation and all posters had to be notified. It was down for a couple of weeks. If you cannot access the board now, that means you are still banned. If you can, then you're not. You might check first before I do anything else.

And, as I recall you were quite rude to start with. Everyone has a bad day, even moderators. If I personally was rude to you, I do apologize. However, you did truly come across as a troll from the get go. Since I'd been dealing with them all day I just assumed you were one more and banned you. A word about me: I don't usually fight with people. If you were nasty and started it, it probably drew me in. But again, I cannot know since I do not remember all the particulars and since I don't have your username, I cannot find out.

Oh well.

If you'd come in and had been charitable, I'm sure things would have been different. If you behaved all the time on CAF the way you did one day on DCF, I'm surprised they let you stay as long as you did on CAF. They must have nerves of steel or they weren't moderating the forum.

edited to add: I didn't notice you signed yourself Ignatius...I'm guessing you mean that's your username. I'll look it up.
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« Reply #1592 on: June 11, 2008, 09:21:25 AM »

The Catholics.


Wrong. All of us are. Myself included. And I know I haven't always succeeded.
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« Reply #1593 on: June 11, 2008, 09:48:22 AM »

But if you're really into truth, you'd take a long, hard look at your own behavior and pride.

Yes. I have done this. And I have discovered that I am the most wretched of all sinners.

You caused more division.

Really?

Again, good for you.

Good for me?  Huh

Regarding messages you received: anyone who was registered at DCF at any time received those messages because the site underwent renovation and all posters had to be notified. It was down for a couple of weeks. If you cannot access the board now, that means you are still banned. If you can, then you're not. You might check first before I do anything else.

I have Catholic friends at DCF. They can private message me, but I can not respond. I am still banned--please label me as such. That is all I ask.

If I personally was rude to you, I do apologize.

And I apologize if you construed my defense of Holy Orthodoxy as being rude.


However, you did truly come across as a troll from the get go.


That was your perception. I received pm's of support before you abruptly banned me. So then you remember our dialogue?

But again, I cannot know since I do not remember all the particulars and since I don't have your username, I cannot find out.

But you just said that I came across as a troll?  Huh

I suppose since we agree about very little, I would say that you initiated the nastiness and you will blame it on me. I revealed my DCF name in my prior post here as  "aka". If you care to pm me that would be fine. But I am not going to rehash what was posted many months ago on DCF. All I am asking is that you label me as banned.

If you'd come in and had been charitable, I'm sure things would have been different.


I was defending my faith. If you see that as a threat, or uncharitable, then that is your perception. I am not often accused of being uncharitable. But I have surely had my uncharitable moments.


If you behaved all the time on CAF the way you did one day on DCF, I'm surprised they let you stay as long as you did on CAF. They must have nerves of steel or they weren't moderating the forum.

Really? So then you do remember our dialogue? Is this your professional opinion as a Roman Catholic moderator?
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« Reply #1594 on: June 11, 2008, 09:57:54 AM »

Okay, I finally found the thread on DCF in question, Mickey. I read it through. And, while you were annoying, I believe I did pull the trigger too soon. I was indeed having a bad day, and my tolerance was rather low. And, for what it's worth, while I did say "don't let the door hit you on the way out" I did not say where the door should hit you. Wink

That being said, you were rude, you did not post an introduction (per the rules) and you did a swansong post (which automatically gets you suspended at least). These last two give the impression of trolling. That was my impetus for the banning. It had nothing to do with your defending Orthodoxy, as I said before. We have several others who do, and none of them torqued me like you did that day.

Now, I am not certain how to proceed. I have to check with the head admin. As far as I know, you are not banned presently because of the board renovation. I can inform them you may be posting again, and if so, I'll let someone else moderate you, if that is what you prefer.
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« Reply #1595 on: June 11, 2008, 10:02:00 AM »

And I should clarify:

I did not remember our exact dialog until I reread the thread just now. All I remembered is the impression I had of your replies, which was quite negative. Considering your reaction, I figured perhaps I'd over-reacted since I was having a rather bad, stressful day. That does seem to be the case, even though you did violate some rules.

I am trying to be reasonable here. I hope you do realize that.
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« Reply #1596 on: June 11, 2008, 10:07:55 AM »

Okay, I finally found the thread on DCF in question, Mickey. I read it through. And, while you were annoying, I believe I did pull the trigger too soon. I was indeed having a bad day, and my tolerance was rather low. And, for what it's worth, while I did say "don't let the door hit you on the way out" I did not say where the door should hit you. Wink

That being said, you were rude, you did not post an introduction (per the rules) and you did a swansong post (which automatically gets you suspended at least). These last two give the impression of trolling. That was my impetus for the banning. It had nothing to do with your defending Orthodoxy, as I said before. We have several others who do, and none of them torqued me like you did that day.

Now, I am not certain how to proceed. I have to check with the head admin. As far as I know, you are not banned presently because of the board renovation. I can inform them you may be posting again, and if so, I'll let someone else moderate you, if that is what you prefer.

That is fine. Thank you Sparky. I do not think I was informed that it was mandatory to post an introduction--but I could be wrong. I admit to not reading the rules.  Embarrassed

And I suppose I did enter with guns blazing--I am very zealous for my faith--sometimes charity suffers. However, my "swansong" was inspired by the rude treatment I felt was being dished out to me. It felt like a feeding frenzy on the lone Orthodox poster.  Cheesy

My apologies again. Please forgive this wretched sinner.

Peace and blessings,
Mickey
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« Reply #1597 on: June 11, 2008, 10:14:02 AM »

And I should clarify:

I did not remember our exact dialog until I reread the thread just now. All I remembered is the impression I had of your replies, which was quite negative. Considering your reaction, I figured perhaps I'd over-reacted since I was having a rather bad, stressful day. That does seem to be the case, even though you did violate some rules.

I am trying to be reasonable here. I hope you do realize that.

God bless you.
I have many bad days.
But then I think about the sacrifice of Jesus Christ, and all my problems become petty and unimportant.  Smiley
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« Reply #1598 on: June 11, 2008, 10:21:41 AM »

One more thing, I think I should explain the swansong rule.

Usually if someone posts a swansong, we take it as you don't want to be there anymore and you want to go, so we help you. (As...harsh as that may sound.) Usually those who post swansongs ARE trolls. Which is why I went and did what I did.

I will double check to see if you are still banned, but I do not believe you are since, as I said, the board settings changed. Either way, I will inform them that you may be posting. And, as I said, I'll let someone else moderate you.

The whole division of the Catholic and Orthodox Churches truly, truly truly saddens me. It does get me very upset emotionally. There are few things that do, and that is one of them. That combined with everything else probably hit me hard that day. That is why I will not remain here long, because there is little I can do to bridge that gap other than pray that it end.
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« Reply #1599 on: June 11, 2008, 10:24:52 AM »

Yes. I have done this. And I have discovered that I am the most wretched of all sinners.

Really?

Good for me?  Huh

I have Catholic friends at DCF. They can private message me, but I can not respond. I am still banned--please label me as such. That is all I ask.

And I apologize if you construed my defense of Holy Orthodoxy as being rude.

 

That was your perception. I received pm's of support before you abruptly banned me. So then you remember our dialogue?

But you just said that I came across as a troll?  Huh

I suppose since we agree about very little, I would say that you initiated the nastiness and you will blame it on me. I revealed my DCF name in my prior post here as  "aka". If you care to pm me that would be fine. But I am not going to rehash what was posted many months ago on DCF. All I am asking is that you label me as banned.
 

I was defending my faith. If you see that as a threat, or uncharitable, then that is your perception. I am not often accused of being uncharitable. But I have surely had my uncharitable moments.


Really? So then you do remember our dialogue? Is this your professional opinion as a Roman Catholic moderator?


I can tell by his response to you micky that he is the troll sparky the troll ..iv read your post's on c.a.f. they were never bad or vicious all you did was speak the truth of holy orthodoxy and how the truth has set you free from the darkness to the light.....i never read this  forum and i never will.....i could only take so much about hearing the pope preached more than christ or even the Holy Virgin preached more than Christ....and about their false satanic apparition ,fatima,lourds,sacred hearts,Divine mercy...medugorije,,,and other ones they flock too...and another one that was just recognized....they seek new Revelation's flock to them like moths to a flame,,and forget what the holy apostle recieved from Christ and given to our Holy Father's for our salvation....all these places are a scam and a good money maker for the catholic church...SmileyCentral.com" border="0
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« Reply #1600 on: June 11, 2008, 10:31:02 AM »

One more thing, I think I should explain the swansong rule.

Usually if someone posts a swansong, we take it as you don't want to be there anymore and you want to go, so we help you. (As...harsh as that may sound.) Usually those who post swansongs ARE trolls. Which is why I went and did what I did.

I will double check to see if you are still banned, but I do not believe you are since, as I said, the board settings changed. Either way, I will inform them that you may be posting. And, as I said, I'll let someone else moderate you.

The whole division of the Catholic and Orthodox Churches truly, truly truly saddens me. It does get me very upset emotionally. There are few things that do, and that is one of them. That combined with everything else probably hit me hard that day. That is why I will not remain here long, because there is little I can do to bridge that gap other than pray that it end.

Thank you for coming here to explain things from your pov.  I have always told people I think DCF does a great job and I think you going the extra mile is admirable.
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« Reply #1601 on: June 11, 2008, 10:33:00 AM »


all these places are a scam and a good money maker for the catholic church...SmileyCentral.com" border="0

I believe Steve Ray (owner of DCF forum) spends about 10k a year of his own money on his site. While he does certainly make money off his videos, lectures, and books, the forum itself is a very expensive. I can vouch for that in that we don't make any money off this site for sure!
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« Reply #1602 on: June 11, 2008, 10:49:06 AM »

I believe Steve Ray (owner of DCF forum) spends about 10k a year of his own money on his site. While he does certainly make money off his videos, lectures, and books, the forum itself is a very expensive. I can vouch for that in that we don't make any money off this site for sure!

Steve actually owns a regular staffing business, which is how he feeds his family. He does spend quite a bit on the site (I am not sure how much) and he does make something on the videos, etc., but he uses that money to produce more. His videos are quite nice, actually. Great history stuff on the Holy Land, etc. I've heard many Orthodox praise his work there. (shrug) Ah well, whatever.

Mickey...I was right, you aren't banned and you are free to post. I let the other mods know that I won't be modding you.

Thanks everyone. Pax vobiscum.
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« Reply #1603 on: June 11, 2008, 10:50:58 AM »

I will double check to see if you are still banned, but I do not believe you are since, as I said, the board settings changed. Either way, I will inform them that you may be posting. And, as I said, I'll let someone else moderate you.
I have been restored.
God bless you.

That is why I will not remain here long, because there is little I can do to bridge that gap other than pray that it end.

I also pray daily for the end of the schism. God will heal that wound in His own time. However, I urge you to stick around--or at least lurk every now and again. You will learn that we are sincere and friendly people!  Cheesy
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« Reply #1604 on: June 11, 2008, 10:52:07 AM »

i never read this  forum and i never will.....

If you have never read the dialogue, nor visited the forum, you are just a character witness and don't know what actually transpired.

Quote
i could only take so much about hearing the pope preached more than christ or even the Holy Virgin preached more than Christ....and about their false satanic apparition ,fatima,lourds,sacred hearts,Divine mercy...medugorije,,,and other ones they flock too...and another one that was just recognized....they seek new Revelation's flock to them like moths to a flame,,and forget what the holy apostle recieved from Christ and given to our Holy Father's for our salvation....all these places are a scam and a good money maker for the catholic church...SmileyCentral.com" border="0

Your opinion of the Roman Catholic Church is well known on this site.  Please, when voicing your opinion, use a more charitable tone.  Many people view the Orthodox Church as cold, harsh and full of hatred because certain people choose to voice valid opinions but in a way that is consistantly seen as aggressive and intolerant.  Yet, when you visit an Orthodox Church and speak with a parish Priest and members of the parish, it is a warm, welcoming place.  Ridiculing people into submission will only lead to resentment and they will have little to no will to even step foot into an Orthodox parish, let alone seriously look into its beliefs and theology.  You don't have to subscribe to some distorted neo-ecumenical views to love your brothers and sisters and show them the utmost respect and charity, you only have to act Christian.

I believe Steve Ray (owner of DCF forum) spends about 10k a year of his own money on his site. While he does certainly make money off his videos, lectures, and books, the forum itself is a very expensive. I can vouch for that in that we don't make any money off this site for sure!

I believe he is refering to Roman Catholic pilgrimage sites, Father Deacon.
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« Reply #1605 on: June 11, 2008, 10:58:53 AM »

and about their false satanic apparition

Stashko, my brother in Christ:

I have read many good and charitable posts from you--but this is not one of them. It is important to remain charitable. I know that you are very zealous for the Holy Orthodox faith, but you must not define yourself by negative comments directed at our brothers and sisters.

God bless you.

P.S--Sparky is a sister--and a fine author.  Smiley
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« Reply #1606 on: June 11, 2008, 11:24:28 AM »

If you have never read the dialogue, nor visited the forum, you are just a character witness and don't know what actually transpired.

Your opinion of the Roman Catholic Church is well known on this site.  Please, when voicing your opinion, use a more charitable tone.  Many people view the Orthodox Church as cold, harsh and full of hatred because certain people choose to voice valid opinions but in a way that is consistantly seen as aggressive and intolerant.  Yet, when you visit an Orthodox Church and speak with a parish Priest and members of the parish, it is a warm, welcoming place.  Ridiculing people into submission will only lead to resentment and they will have little to no will to even step foot into an Orthodox parish, let alone seriously look into its beliefs and theology.  You don't have to subscribe to some distorted neo-ecumenical views to love your brothers and sisters and show them the utmost respect and charity, you only have to act Christian.

I believe he is refering to Roman Catholic pilgrimage sites, Father Deacon.

Brother ...i mentioned the things i read on caf..only ...which i don't and many orthodox don't agree on...pope,, apparition...doesn't  mean i hate catholic people ....i don't care for there church or there vatican...the people are fine ....SmileyCentral.com" border="0
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« Reply #1607 on: June 11, 2008, 12:48:18 PM »

Hello Sparky, welcome to the forum,
I don't know what their policy is on banning. Again, I'm not a moderator over there. The only thing I know is that there were many, many complaints made about Orthodox behavior, and apparently when the higher ups (namely the man Karl Keating or someone else on the main staff who pays good money to run that forum) finally looked, he/they pulled the plug, lock, stock and barrel.
I am not surprised, but I believe that you are imagining the situation to be quite different than it actually is.

I agree that there must have been complaints, especially from the financial supporters.  But their complaints would not have been about rudeness on our part (any more than any other groups rudeness (I think as a group we set a high bar overall), but the fact that the Latin Catholic church was not showing well. If they were kicking butt every day there would be no complaints.
If your eye offends you pluck it out and all that.
This is really misapplied. What you are saying is "if that other persons eye offends you...pluck his eye out!
Read their TOS. They don't have to give warning, as I understand it.
Granted.

Well, you see...the goal should not be to bully or beat up on anyone. That is a lack of Christian charity, is it not? Who is the one who should be the better example of Christ's charity?

Is there really success in causing more division and hatred rather than charity? Really?
I have always felt the same way.  Too bad the archives have been locked, and possibly destoyed, you could see the lack of charity and where it originated. They keep the most mundane stuff archived there, like old political forums and such, but not this one.
Think about it. The root of our divisions (all of them, Orthodox, Catholic, and even Protestant) is rooted in human pride, the deadliest of all sins. With the Protestants it is to make each individual their own pope. With the Orthodox, they have no humility and therefore "non servum" (that is my perception, for what it's worth, and I do not think it is far off the mark)....We are all guilty of it.  The goal should be to break that cycle, but since we are all rooted in ugly pride it will not happen.
I can agree, we are all guilty of pride. I don't agree with your assessment of the Orthodox, which is nothing but your preconceived notion based upon the flaweed assumption that the bishop of Rome should be as a modern Pope.

We as a group will, in fact, serve God's Will and do try as best as we know and are able. We understand primacy and authority in the church, it is operative at all levels. Historically we have never had anything like a modern Pope to reject out of pride. If we actually did have something like that, and refused to any longer "serve" him, I suppose you would have an argument.

But I was taught that the Pope was the "Servant of the Servants of God", is he not?
With Rome a sense of intellectual and spiritual superiority.
In fact, it is arrogance, and a pride in the organization which is still (after all) composed of fallible human beings. And it is hamartia.
Perhaps you're right. Perhaps you are better at debate and managed to convince some people to your argument. You won a few souls to your cause. Bully for you. But what did you really accomplish? A lot more hurt, a lot more pain, a lot more division in the Body of Christ.
Since Catholic Answers is a Catholic organization whose goal is to defend the Catholic faith, I think converting Catholics to commit schism and therefore mortal sin would be upsetting to the board's owners, don't you think?
If this is what you think, then we are not very close to healing this rift. At one level (the "polite" level) we are your "sister" churches, and at another we are nothing but low-down dirty schismatics! While some Latin Catholics attempted to hold a balanced and informed position (something I respect even when I do not agree) others had malice in their hearts, looking to draw blood, equating us with protestants and heretics. Keen on disgracing both our beliefs (which are often shred by eastern Catholics) and our Holy Orthodox church, the Bride of Christ, itself.

Do you concur with Pope Boniface VIII when he states in Unam Sanctam:
[bgcolor=#f5ff00]"If, then, the Greeks or others say that they were not committed to the care of Peter and his successors, they necessarily confess that they are not of the sheep of Christ; for the Lord says, in John, that there is one fold, one shepherd, and one only.Canate Domino that:
[bgcolor=#f5ff00] "It [the sacrosanct Roman Church] firmly believes, professes, and proclaims that those not living within the Catholic Church, not only pagans, but also Jews and heretics and schismatics cannot become participants in eternal life, but will depart "into everlasting fire which was prepared for the devil and his angels" [/bgcolor]

Are you in agreement with Pius XI when he writes in Mortalium Animos:
[bgcolor=#f5ff00] “Furthermore, in this one Church of Christ no man can be or remain who does not accept, recognize and obey the authority and supremacy of Peter and his legitimate successors. Did not the ancestors of those who are now entangled in the errors of Photius and the reformers obey the Bishop of Rome, the chief shepherd of souls? Alas their children left the home of their fathers, but it did not fall to the ground and perish for ever, for it was supported by God. Let them therefore return to their common Father, who, forgetting the insults previously heaped on the Apostolic See, will receive them in the most loving fashion. For if, as they continually state, they long to be united with Us and ours, why do they not hasten to enter the Church, “the Mother and mistress of all Christ’s faithful?” Let them hear Lactantius crying out: “The Catholic Church is alone in keeping the true worship. This is the fount of truth, this is the house of Faith, this is the temple of God: if any man enter not here, or if any man go forth from it, he is a stranger to the hope of life and salvation. Let none delude himself with obstinate wrangling. For life and salvation are here concerned, which will be lost and entirely destroyed, unless their interests are carefully and assiduously kept in mind.
It really is what I described above - you went in, ate their food, drank all their beer, then proceeded to turn the hosts' other visitors and family members against them.
That is something you are not able to speak about since by your own admission you did not participate.

What we did was defend Holy Orthodoxy when it came under attack from some people of your confession who in no way were interested in building up out mutual ties or reinforcing our common qualities, but were directly and seriously engaged in tearing down Holy Orthodoxy. Presenting misinformation, sometimes innocently, sometimes apparently not, and sometimes mixing their opinions in as fact. It is odd that they found it necessary to do this when they should be able to make their own church look pretty good without having to resort to putting Holy Orthodoxy down.

We defended our church by correcting poorly translated quotes and putting Patristic evidence in context. It was a simple idea really. But I won't take credit for that, others better knowledgeable and prepared than I were able to carry that through.

I have stated here (on this thread) before that the Latin Catholic posters generally relied on quote mines and other resources that they trusted, but which were seriously flawed when it comes to the eastern churches. These include but are not limited to the Old Catholic Encyclopedia and Catholic Answers very own polemical materials. Many of them were used to arguing the case with Protestants, and foolishly assumed that we were no better. So then, much energy was expended trying to box us in to their own narrow definitions as "rebels" and "heretics" to discredit our church, they failed.

Some tried to prove our church "started" at some point in Christian history instead of arising out of the Pentecost event, they failed.

It should be noted that a large percentage of those conversions were of LURKERS, not necessarily continually active participants. They had plenty of opportunities to read the evidence presented, and ask questions of the more active participants. They lurkers and inquirers also had plenty of opportunities to do their own independent research outside of CAF from sources of their own choosing! This, from my recollection, they were always encouraged to do.

All the Latin Catholics had to do was answer each question honestly, that should have been able to dominate any discussion if they presented Truth in their arguments and that true information had merit. But they did not or could not always be honest and when that happened the audience saw right through them. They should be ashamed of their poor performance in their own setting.
Perhaps you're right. Perhaps you are better at debate and managed to convince some people to your argument. You won a few souls to your cause. Bully for you. But what did you really accomplish? A lot more hurt, a lot more pain, a lot more division in the Body of Christ.
Congratulations! I'm sure our Lord is happy.
This sounds like a pretty sour comment.

"...schismatics cannot become participants in eternal life, but will depart "into everlasting fire which was prepared for the devil and his angels"
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« Reply #1608 on: June 11, 2008, 01:28:26 PM »

All the Latin Catholics had to do was answer each question honestly, that should have been able to dominate any discussion if they presented Truth in their arguments and that true information had merit. But they did not or could not always be honest and when that happened the audience saw right through them.

Amen my brother!
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« Reply #1609 on: June 11, 2008, 04:32:20 PM »

My suggestion would be that this thread quietly close in a day or two - not to preclude forever discussion of CAF - there will be, from time to time, some particularly outrageous event there that merits a new thread here. But, this thread has had its useful life; its mere existence should be a reminder to CAF for a long time to come that the choices they made were poor and wrong.

In the light of this, and after considerable discussion, the Administrators and Moderators have come to the consensus that the time has come to close this thread and maintain it as a "sticky" as a permanent record of the events. The thread will be closed one week from this post on Wednesday 18th June to allow those who wish to make final contributions to it to do so (please be aware though that forum rules still apply, and any posts which are irrelevant to the topic will be moved).  Remember that our mission here is not to dwell on the wrongs committed to us, but instead to participate in the blessed discussion that we were enriched by before these events took place.

Thank you,
The Admin/Mod Team
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« Reply #1610 on: June 11, 2008, 05:48:29 PM »

Thank you OC.net for allowing the people from the old EC forum to meet and document the wrongs done to them by CAF.  It has been a healing experience.

God bless.
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« Reply #1611 on: June 11, 2008, 09:01:43 PM »

In the light of this, and after considerable discussion, the Administrators and Moderators have come to the consensus that the time has come to close this thread and maintain it as a "sticky" as a permanent record of the events. The thread will be closed one week from this post on Wednesday 18th June to allow those who wish to make final contributions to it to do so (please be aware though that forum rules still apply, and any posts which are irrelevant to the topic will be moved).  Remember that our mission here is not to dwell on the wrongs committed to us, but instead to participate in the blessed discussion that we were enriched by before these events took place.

Thank you,
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Good.  It is about time.
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« Reply #1612 on: June 11, 2008, 09:23:05 PM »

Good...
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« Reply #1613 on: June 12, 2008, 12:45:25 AM »

The thread will be closed one week from this post on Wednesday 18th June
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Thank-you folks, for an extraordinary rendevouz event hosting!

We blew the doors off 'em, and got 'em to show their true colors!

Glory to God!

Now if we can just survive our next president...!!

Reader Arsenios
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« Reply #1614 on: June 12, 2008, 06:39:32 AM »



Good.  It is about time.


You're sharing, right?
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« Reply #1615 on: June 12, 2008, 05:57:15 PM »

You're sharing, right?

My champagne is your champagne! 
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« Reply #1616 on: June 12, 2008, 10:24:39 PM »

"When he reached the New World, Cortez burned his ships. As a result his men were well motivated."
-Captain Marko Ramius (Sean Connery) in The Hunt for Red October

(I've always liked that line, but you don't get too many opportunities to use it.)
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« Reply #1617 on: June 13, 2008, 11:06:02 AM »

I would like to hear a final word from Father ( Irish Hermit). Isa too.

Please forgive me for any offense or negative impact I may have had during our time on CAF. I could have done much better. I was too aggressive and prideful. I beg your pardon.
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« Reply #1618 on: June 13, 2008, 06:24:27 PM »

 
A Reminder:
The Administrators and Moderators have come to the consensus that the time has come to close this thread and maintain it as a "sticky" as a permanent record of the events. The thread will be closed on Wednesday 18th June, and this is a reminder to allow those who wish to make final contributions to it to do so (please be aware though that forum rules still apply, and any posts which are irrelevant to the topic will be moved).  Remember that our mission here is not to dwell on the wrongs committed to us, but instead to participate in the blessed discussion that we were enriched by before these events took place.

Thank you,
The Admin/Mod Team



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« Reply #1619 on: June 13, 2008, 06:29:39 PM »

Closing posts identifying the stealth-banned Orthodox and others might be in order for documentation sake:

Aristokles is among the them on CAF.
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