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Author Topic: catholic answers forum bars orthodox dicussion  (Read 266800 times) Average Rating: 0
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Joab Anias
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« Reply #900 on: December 07, 2007, 03:35:13 AM »

That's a rather arbitrary assessment, isn't it?   Grin  I think we should focus on the merits of the argument rather than the amount of refinement in its style of delivery.

Yes of course but it was a simple answer. I have entertained each argument to the point I don't want to anymore.

I have never seen a polemic deny any doctrine based on scripture though, have you?

Peace.

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« Reply #901 on: December 07, 2007, 03:42:08 AM »

Or dismissing it out of hand based on whose argument it is.

How was it dismissed? Just by an lol? Thats reading allot into an lol isn't it? Allot into a few words in fact that intended to say no such thing. I would hazard a guess though that someone who lets polemics convert them doesn't know their faith in the first place. Not to say you did of course. I can see some very valid reasons to convert to one of the Eastern Catholic churches but not the ones who call everyone else heretics.

Peace.
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« Reply #902 on: December 07, 2007, 06:03:49 AM »

Please keep this thread on topic. It's about the recent removal of the Eastern Christian forum on CAF and the banning of posters there.
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« Reply #903 on: December 07, 2007, 10:15:00 AM »

How was it dismissed? Just by an lol? Thats reading allot into an lol isn't it? Allot into a few words in fact that intended to say no such thing. I would hazard a guess though that someone who lets polemics convert them doesn't know their faith in the first place. Not to say you did of course. I can see some very valid reasons to convert to one of the Eastern Catholic churches but not the ones who call everyone else heretics.

Peace.

You are dismissing it by assuming that Orthodox arguments are "polemics" simply because they are Orthodox arguments. Catholic arguments, on the other hand, are "apologetics" because they are Catholic arguments.

This line of thinking on CAF almost caused me to leave even before the EC forum was closed—the painting of Orthodox members, arguments or beliefs as "hateful" or "anti-Catholic" simply because they disagree with Catholic beliefs. Roll Eyes

Marduk was kind enough to give me his definition of "anti-Catholic," which was something like "someone who knowingly creates strawmen of Catholic arguments in the face of correction on what the RCC actually teaches." This is a fair definition, but it happens in the minority of posts which are labeled "anti-Catholic."
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« Reply #904 on: December 07, 2007, 12:07:19 PM »

Hello,

A blessed name day to Father Ambrose and Padre Ambrogio!
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« Reply #905 on: December 07, 2007, 03:53:54 PM »

Since the thread was going off topic, the discussion pertaining to the consequences of leaving the RCC for Orthodoxy and visa versa, has been split and moved to the Orthodox-Catholic section.  It can be found here:  http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,13817.0.html

Thank you.
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« Reply #906 on: December 09, 2007, 04:00:49 PM »

You are dismissing it by assuming that Orthodox arguments are "polemics" simply because they are Orthodox arguments. Catholic arguments, on the other hand, are "apologetics" because they are Catholic arguments.

This line of thinking on CAF almost caused me to leave even before the EC forum was closed—the painting of Orthodox members, arguments or beliefs as "hateful" or "anti-Catholic" simply because they disagree with Catholic beliefs. Roll Eyes

Marduk was kind enough to give me his definition of "anti-Catholic," which was something like "someone who knowingly creates strawmen of Catholic arguments in the face of correction on what the RCC actually teaches." This is a fair definition, but it happens in the minority of posts which are labeled "anti-Catholic."

Some of those "straw men" however, are his fellow submitters to Rome.

He's known for about a week that we're here now.  I guess he doesn't want to come out and play.
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« Reply #907 on: December 10, 2007, 01:39:18 AM »

Grin

A good encouragement for us to stay here!

However, it was not at all a wasted effort:

- it brought us all together (no small feat);

- it was instrumental to bring about some precious conversions to Holy Orthodoxy (of which the "convert issues" section of this forum may benefit in due course);

- It remains as a standing witness that the path of dialogue is still going on at an individual level, yet it is often manipulated and subjected to abuses of power. A good lesson for the times to come.

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Any ideas about how to give my contribution to the bannees' cause?


Padre bless, I am so happy to see that you found the knew congregation for all the old CAF posters.  I was hoping you would. 
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« Reply #908 on: December 10, 2007, 01:46:52 AM »

Padre bless, I am so happy to see that you found the knew congregation for all the old CAF posters.  I was hoping you would. 
Jimmy,

I want to pay tribute to you and to other Eastern Catholics posting on CAF such as Yeshua who are standing up so well against the sometimes relentless and ruthless barrage to which the Roman Catholics and even latinised Eastern Catholics subject you.  God bless.
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« Reply #909 on: December 10, 2007, 02:23:17 AM »

Jimmy,

I want to pay tribute to you and to other Eastern Catholics posting on CAF such as Yeshua who are standing up so well against the sometimes relentless and ruthless barrage to which the Roman Catholics and even latinised Eastern Catholics subject you.  God bless.

Father, I wish that what I said was helpfull but I don't think that they understand.  I am new to eastern theology so I have trouble giving a good explanation of the faith in the east.  I am just thankful that there are others who are more knowledgable than myself - lakayarabb, ronyodish, Hesychios, Irish Melkite, and yeshua - who are there sometimes to post.  I am sad that things have changed over there.  There was more of a dialogue between east and west before.  Now it is just Latins - and some easterners - telling us we must reject our traditions and accept latin tradition.  Sorry to them but playing dressup is not an option to many of us.  If we are going to claim to be Syrian or Byzantine Christians it is our job to actually hold to that tradition and not just play dress up.
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« Reply #910 on: December 10, 2007, 03:29:34 PM »

In a way I wish I could still post Sad

I'm stunned at the lack on knowledge on the part of some  posters there at present

Quote
I think we would have a better chance with the Byzantines if they were vested for liturgy as I've never seen an Eastern Catholic with an epigonation and ..........

However - I can't ,   so I enjoy sitting on the sidelines at times , watching themselves tying themselves in knots.

I wonder how long that particular Forum will survive
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« Reply #911 on: December 11, 2007, 08:06:34 PM »

In a way I wish I could still post

I'm stunned at the lack on knowledge on the part of some  posters there at present
You are truly missed.   Cry  It's a tragedy.

Sometimes I feel foolish when I get sucked in to disputes over there. It's bad, and the people I wind up locking horns with are often not really worth the trouble. I have lost my patrience and I am sometimes course. I can spend an hour (off and on) writing a post and then delete it all but one line.

I should have probably been banned or suspended again by now, considering my sour mood. But somehow things I write mysteriously disappear....at least, I think I write them...  Huh

But it is definitely grinding down. Inertia is taking over in the EC section. Such banal topics as "who has the best food" now garner more posts, and quicker, than the serious topics.

Isa stands out head and shoulders above everyone in the non-Catholic section (that is where the most challenging and biting threads are now), whenever I see his name I have a look. Although there are not many of them, those threads in non-Cath must be a revelation to the Protestants who are lurking there. Oddly, they mostly have nothing at all to contribute. So you find the oddity of Orthodox and TradLats contesting it in that foreign landscape. It's like talking about fishing on the moon.

Michael, that suinner
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« Reply #912 on: December 11, 2007, 09:59:30 PM »

You are truly missed.   Cry  It's a tragedy.

Sometimes I feel foolish when I get sucked in to disputes over there. It's bad, and the people I wind up locking horns with are often not really worth the trouble. I have lost my patrience and I am sometimes course. I can spend an hour (off and on) writing a post and then delete it all but one line.

I should have probably been banned or suspended again by now, considering my sour mood. But somehow things I write mysteriously disappear....at least, I think I write them...  Huh

But it is definitely grinding down. Inertia is taking over in the EC section. Such banal topics as "who has the best food" now garner more posts, and quicker, than the serious topics.

Isa stands out head and shoulders above everyone in the non-Catholic section (that is where the most challenging and biting threads are now), whenever I see his name I have a look. Although there are not many of them, those threads in non-Cath must be a revelation to the Protestants who are lurking there. Oddly, they mostly have nothing at all to contribute. So you find the oddity of Orthodox and TradLats contesting it in that foreign landscape. It's like talking about fishing on the moon.

Michael, that suinner

Thanks for the kind words.

I must say I admire the likes of Ronyodish, Apotheum, Yeshua, Irish Melkite, Jimmy, LakayaRabb,...Thankless job.

I won't be posting much for awhile: semester is winding down, grades,....

And then I have a court date next week that I have to get ready for.  Judge still doesn't think the shack up threatening to kill mom and the kids at knifepoint is a bad environment for them.  Please say a prayer if you can.

Btw, slave, who were you on ECF?
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« Reply #913 on: December 12, 2007, 04:28:45 AM »

Thanks to Jimmy and Isa for the kind mention. Almost the only reason for my continued posting there is the effort to keep folks with genuine questions from getting misleading answers from the unholy combo of Latins who (erroneously) perceive themselves knowledgeable about the East and from a few highly-latinized Eastern Catholics whose posts often leave me cringing.

Yeshua and Jimmy have done remarkably there, being the least latinized Maronites whom I've ever known; not afraid to speak of the issues in their own Church and ready to address matters in other Churches as best they can (which is really very good, Jimmy's self-deprecation notwithstanding). Rony, Apotheon, Laka, and Ghosty have also made yeomanlike efforts to give posters valid info to take away with them. And, in all fairness, one cannot ignore the thoughtful posts by bpbasilphx who, his affiliation notwithstanding, consistently demonstrates an excellent understanding of Eastern Christianity, spirituality, and praxis, as well as an apparently very "o"rthodox outlook.

My brothers, Michael, Mickey, and mgy have made incredible contributions - not only in presenting Orthodoxy's side of those few topics that have been allowed to cross "the line", but also in helping to assure that Eastern Catholicism is not misrepresented - and I'm especially grateful to them for that. Isa and a few others have done a fantastic job in the Non-Catholic forum, despite the inappropriateness of Holy Orthodoxy being relegated to that venue.

I'm doubtful that I'll continue posting at CAF beyond the first of the year. It's fast become just another of the purportedly "Eastern" fora that exist on a number of Latin sites. It used to be that I was registered at (and still am, I suppose) most of them and would travel a nightly circuit, checking to see if any queries had been posted, so that I could assure accurate responses were made. If anyone was a serious inquirer, I'd PM and direct them elsewhere to places (ByzCath and/or here), where they could get good info in an actual Eastern environment. That's a tiring and generally thankless task (riding the circuit) because the resident Latins would argue endlessly with you and I gave it up.

Now that CAF's EC forum has become just another such a site (the only difference being its size in terms of visitors), I can't (and don't want to) continue.  I have a commitment to creating a new on-line directory of EC parishes and it's time-consuming. I'd rather devote what posting time I have available to ByzCath and here. Both are decidedly more interesting places than the Eastern facade that has been constructed on the buried ruins of what was a thriving, vibrant community at CAF - contentious at times, yes, but populated by highly informed folk who genuinely cared about and for one another, regardless of our theological differences. Those are features that have always been the principal attractions of this forum and that at ByzCath; in the 2.5 years that we had at CAF after the reorg that created the old EC forum, we made a strong showing of emulating that - but it isn't there anymore and I don't see a likelihood that it will ever be restored to that type of atmosphere.

While I've never shied from respectful debate with my Orthodox brothers, I don't fancy unrestrained dueling against those with whom I'm purportedly in communio sacris, particularly not when the air is replete with disparaging remarks by the latter, directed at my Catholicity, that of my Church, and that of my Eastern and Oriental Catholic brethren. Heck, I can get that from a hard-line Orthodox poster - and understand from whence he is coming  Grin

Many years,

Neil
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« Reply #914 on: December 12, 2007, 10:12:48 AM »

Quote
Btw, slave, who were you on ECF?

Me ?  Wannabee - who in days past signed as ' the no longer wannabee wannabee ' which should bring back some memories to folk like Michael and Neil and a few others.  Grin

As Neil has said

Quote
Almost the only reason for my continued posting there is the effort to keep folks with genuine questions from getting misleading answers from the unholy combo of Latins who (erroneously) perceive themselves knowledgeable about the East and from a few highly-latinized Eastern Catholics whose posts often leave me cringing.

My feelings exactly - OK - really I'm very much an infant in the  East - but some of the misconceptions  of some of the posters on CAF are so glaringly obvious  that they really do need instant and urgent correction.

Ah well - I really can't see it lasting .

Yes - I suppose it was my own darn fault I got booted off - but someone there could not see  that you really could not post rumours about Episcopal Appointments - I said that from what I had heard , they were not right - and as it finally came out , the rumours were not completely accurate - but by that time I'd had my fight with one person and finally in absolute disgust , had lost my temper and created another ID and used that - and well the result was an instant banning.

Oh well - it's water under the bridge now
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« Reply #915 on: December 12, 2007, 02:57:10 PM »

Greetings,

Thank you Neil and Isa for your kind words, if there has been anything positive from this ordeal, it is those Eastern and Oriental Catholics who can be testaments to their patrimonies and have come out in strong. Jimmy does such a fantastic job that I only jump in if I'm needed now.  Cheesy

And endless gratitude to Michael and the few other Catholic Orthodox who were not so rudely banned. Your contributions have been great, albeit under appreciated. Please know all of the Eastern and Oriental Catholics are grateful for your help, especially considering how you and yours were treated.

But I, too, will probably be not posting as much at the start of the new year, out of conscious and demands of life. My academics have hit a new level, my research is inundating (in the good way that research does) and my guess is the EC forum is going to loose what is left of its identity.

As for being one of the least Latinized Maronites, haha, I am honored, though I hope it is a consolation that there are many, many others 'worse' than me. I don't believe it is presumptive to say that the bulk of the posters on CAF or Americans? If they only knew how terrible the American church is seen in the eyes of many Maronites back in Lebanon...

BTW, what is bpbasilphx's affiliation? I do enjoy his posts.

Peace and God Bless!
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« Reply #916 on: December 12, 2007, 03:44:45 PM »

I must agree with yeshua and Neil.

CAF has lost a wealth of knowledge by their actions and it is a loss for everyone. I also commend yeshua, Jimmy, Neil, Michael, Isa and others for their attempt to educate and defend against the errors which are strewn about with abandon.

As a side note, I registered to another Catholic forum (of which I will not name) in an attempt to defend the Eastern practice of chrismating and communing infants. I was brutally attacked by the Latin Catholics, called a schismatic and a hypocrit, told that the Orthodox Church was not an Apostolic Church, and then banned forever. The moderator threw the most insults at me. And here's the kicker, the label of "banned" was not placed under my name. Sound familiar?
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« Reply #917 on: December 12, 2007, 03:58:21 PM »

Did you guys acquire "points" before you were kicked off? Or were you merely kicked off?
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« Reply #918 on: December 12, 2007, 05:19:54 PM »

Did you guys acquire "points" before you were kicked off? Or were you merely kicked off?


Personally, I dont think any of us Orthodox were making too many points at all there. 

Maybe we should define"points"?  If you mean seniority, I guess of sorts we did.

Some of us were on that forum for quite a few years.  I had some 4.400 posts before I got the axe.

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« Reply #919 on: December 12, 2007, 06:57:07 PM »

I must agree with yeshua and Neil.

CAF has lost a wealth of knowledge by their actions and it is a loss for everyone. 
*
Not only the archived knowledge which was vast, but they also lost one of the venues where a genuine grass roots ecumenical dialogue was occuring between Catholics and Orthodox.  They ought to have been proud of that but instead they felt threatened by a few conversions and so they closed it down.

Now on the new emasculated EC Forum all that is presented is a saccharine sweet version of Orthodoxy designed for Catholic consumption.   It's a disservice to the Catholics there because it is a false picture of Orthodoxy designed to allay any Catholic fears and it will not prepare them for any face-to-face encounter with Orthodoxy.
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« Reply #920 on: December 12, 2007, 08:01:20 PM »



Personally, I dont think any of us Orthodox were making too many points at all there. 

Maybe we should define"points"?  If you mean seniority, I guess of sorts we did.

Some of us were on that forum for quite a few years.  I had some 4.400 posts before I got the axe.

JoeS (StMarkEofE)

No I mean, three stricks your out, you have been a bad girl/boy, kind of points.

I am now at 10 points for various offenses. I wonder how many before I am kicked off? Other Latin Catholics will do EXACTLY what I do and not get a single point, merely a note. But I am racking up the points like no tommorrow. Huh
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« Reply #921 on: December 12, 2007, 08:10:04 PM »

No I mean, three stricks your out, you have been a bad girl/boy, kind of points.

I am now at 10 points for various offenses. I wonder how many before I am kicked off? Other Latin Catholics will do EXACTLY what I do and not get a single point, merely a note. But I am racking up the points like no tommorrow. Huh

I don't think anyone here got warnings of any sort before being banned.

So, what did you do to score those points?  angel Grin
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« Reply #922 on: December 12, 2007, 10:18:10 PM »

I gave "medical advice" by posting the directions to a jar of progesterone cream I have. And I posted an article in its entirety because the article was on a british site that had a semi-nude woman on the page, so rather than just posting the link, I c&p the article. That way those that didn't want to see the semi-nude woman could read the article without being offended or tempted. It was a fairly short article about a woman in the UK that saved her 24 week old babies life by snuggling her, which got her heart to beat and such after the docs gave her up for dead. Other women on the thread posted the pix. I also mentioned that I have "points" for the aforementioned med. advice. Grin  She deleted the thread and gave me 5 points.

It is so ridiculous, you are allowed to tell a couple that they HAVE TO practice NFP. Even if the reason they don't want to get pregnant is LIFETHREATENING, it doesn't matter, you MUST practice NFP. Even if your PRIEST gave you the OK to use a barrier contraceptive or even something surgical to prevent pregnancy. Nope, they tell you that you have to ONLY use NFP. How that isn't medical advice I don't know. It is advice that counters your priest and doctors, but NOT medical advice somehow, Huh
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« Reply #923 on: December 12, 2007, 10:28:41 PM »

No I mean, three strikes your out, you have been a bad girl/boy, kind of points.

I am now at 10 points for various offenses. I wonder how many before I am kicked off? Other Latin Catholics will do EXACTLY what I do and not get a single point, merely a note. But I am racking up the points like no tommorrow. Huh
You mean on CAF?

They got rid of the point system almost three years ago!

Are you stating that they brought it back? I have to check and see if I got some!  Shocked

I remember the first two week I was there, Karl Keating slapped 15 points on me with for complaining about how another Byzantine Catholic was suspended. Actually it was Dave "ByzCath", who doesn't seem to like me very much anymore ... Cry
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« Reply #924 on: December 12, 2007, 10:59:30 PM »

You mean on CAF?

They got rid of the point system almost three years ago!

Are you stating that they brought it back? I have to check and see if I got some!  Shocked

I remember the first two week I was there, Karl Keating slapped 15 points on me with for complaining about how another Byzantine Catholic was suspended. Actually it was Dave "ByzCath", who doesn't seem to like me very much anymore ... Cry

Bpbasilphx's affiliation is listed as "Orthodox".

The point system was still in effect, at least as of May 2007, as to which I can personally attest.
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« Reply #925 on: December 12, 2007, 11:35:59 PM »

Michael,

Dave the Byzcath Carmelite and I don't get along either...I'm so heart broken

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« Reply #926 on: December 13, 2007, 12:00:46 AM »

Actually it was Dave "ByzCath", who doesn't seem to like me very much anymore ... Cry

What did you do to merit that? As far as I can see, ever since he joined the Carmelites he didn't post much in the EC forum.
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« Reply #927 on: December 13, 2007, 06:18:57 AM »

Quote from: Hesychios
They got rid of the point system almost three years ago!

Are you stating that they brought it back? I have to check and see if I got some!

Michael,

It's a different "point" system than the old "rep" system. I think it came into play after the big crash. As I understand it, it's a negative system - no rep points involved. There are warnings which come w/o points and infractions that come w/ points. Points are assessed by the mods and most have an expiration date - but they can be permanent. A total of X number will result in "account under review" status; another X number can get you suspended; still another results in banning. If you have any, they are only visible to you - on your profile, I think. There was (may still be) a thread that explained it - probably in one of the subfora in that Conceirage Desk Forum or whatever it's called.

From what I understand, it's discretionary as to whether mods use that method or just PM/e-mail warnings, and outright put people "under review", suspend, etc as they see fit. I know Joe wasn't enamored of the point process and didn't use it much, sticking mainly to a combo of the old-fashioned technique and the occasional public dressing-down broadly directed at everyone who contributed to the downhill slide of a particular thread.

Quote from: yeshua
BTW, what is bpbasilphx's affiliation? I do enjoy his posts.

Yeshua,

bpbasilphx is an "independent" - what I would typically have termed a vagante a few years ago. Since then, I've mellowed a bit and now distinguish in my mind (and reaction) between true vagante - with all the negative connotations that usually accompany that term - and so-called "independent" Catholic/Orthodox.

To the former camp, I consign those who like to dress-up and turn their famly room (or garage) into their cathedral every Sunday for the edification of their spouse and a couple friends whose fondest wish is that they owned a cope and mitre as nice as those worn by the "patriarch", "primate", metropolitan", or whatever styling they've adopted. Others exist only on-line - the wonders of cheap websites, a digital camera, and a bit of skill at web-design. But, there are also some among the vagante who have managed to acquire a "church" - be it a storefront or a former church of another faith, albeit the more expansive surroundings don't change what they are. (One note, vagante used to have a short-life of about 6 months, give or take; these days, there are some whose careers I've followed for 20 years or more.) Such folk, regardless of where they garnered their episcopal orders, are usually of a strange theological bent and spiritually dangerous to those who become involved with them.

Then, there are the "independents" - it is, admittedly, an artificial distinction and one for which I'll undoubtedly take some flak. The terminology originally developed among some of the "Old Catholic-type" Churches (I use that phrasing purposefully, because there really have never been any true "Old Catholic Churches" in the US - not in the sense of being in union with Utrecht - with the exception of the Polish National Catholics, who have now broken that communion because of Utrecht's ordaining females) and was adopted by some of the "Orthodox-type" Churches (not Old Calendrists nor any of the other "non-canonical" but essentially mainstream Orthodox). 

As the number of these "independents" has grown, I started to detect what I perceived as distinguishing features among them. Some were out-and-out vagante, no matter how much they protested to the contrary or how they labeled themselves. Others adhered very closely to a theology that was difficult to distinguish from that of the Apostolic Churches, Catholic or Orthodox. These latter avoided female ordination, same-sex marriages, promoted very traditional liturgical praxis - in accordance with that of whichever Church it was with which they identified, and seemed to be genuinely seeking to pastorally serve those who came into their purview, but who (for one reason or another) could not reconcile themselves with Catholicism or Orthodoxy.

I got to personally know, through correspondence or e-mail, a few such hierarchs whom I could not honestly describe as other than well-intentioned, spiritual men, who have undoubtedly led some people to God. This despite their separation from the Churches that most of us would consider to be the likely avenues for achieving salvation. Bishop Basil, I believe, fits that mold.

He was tonsured a rassaphore monk in the late '70s, not sure what jurisdiction, but I suspect Romanian Orthodox. A decade plus later, he was ordained to the presbyterate by an "independent bishop". I think, but am not certain, that it was the same hierarch who was the principal consecrator when he was raised to the episcopate himself, a few years later. His episcopal lineage is through the so-called Duarte-Costa Line of independent Catholics who came out of Brazil.

He has a single church and a small congregation, located in Phoenix. It apparently is served by him and a single presbyter. It's a fairly common practice among such hierarchs to episcopally ordain multiple clones of themselves, thus adding to the craziness and spread of their self-styled Churches. As far as I know (and I track the genre fairly closely), Bishop Basil has not, in the 10 years since his own rise to the rank of bishop, ordained any other bishops. He formerly had a website (I don't see it out there presently), which suggested that he was not at all "off-the-reservation" in his theology and, as those who have read his posts will agree (I think), he demostrates a rather excellent grasp of Eastern spirituality. I do know that he has an interest in regularizing his status with Rome or Constantinople, although I don't know what he's done to advance that goal.

Two friends and I were discussing the situation and agreed that, under the (Catholic) Augustinian Theory of Succession, he could make a strong case for recognition by Rome and, although he'd fail the (Orthodox) Cyprianic Theory of Succession, it wasn't beyond the realm of possibility that someone somewhere in Orthodoxy would accord him recognition under oekonomia. Since then, I've elected to address him by his dignity.

My suspicion, he posts at CAF because he can do so there without reprecussion since the policy allows non-Roman Catholic clerics to post provided that it is clear from their profile or signature that they are not in communion with Rome.

Ok, I just noticed (and am bothered) by what Jetavan reported seeing on his profile. I checked and it does indeed say "Orthodox" unadorned by any qualifier or disclaimer. It seems to me that either his profile or signature was previously more forthcoming - that he termed himself either as "Catholic" or "Orthodox" - but that it was accompanied by language that made it obvious that he was neither Roman Catholic nor Eastern Orthodox (whichever was appropriate to how he styled himself). Father Ambrose, do you remember?

As I was about to say before discovering that his profile isn't quite up-front, I think he'd be disinclined to post here or at ByzCath, because I suspect that he'd be concerned about being slammed for his unconventional affiliation. Which is too bad, because I do think he's well-intentioned and a good person.

Many years,

Neil
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« Reply #928 on: December 13, 2007, 07:18:19 AM »

For those interested, I found a very interesting thread on CAF from the days of old that (in hindsight) was very forward looking in nature.

So many things about it, its just easier if you read it  Grin

forums.catholic.com/showthread.php?t=66048

I'm feeling nostalgic already  Cry

In Jesus Christ,
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« Reply #929 on: December 13, 2007, 07:48:07 AM »

For those interested, I found a very interesting thread on CAF from the days of old that (in hindsight) was very forward looking in nature.

So many things about it, its just easier if you read it  Grin

forums.catholic.com/showthread.php?t=66048&page=3

I'm feeling nostalgic already  Cry

In Jesus Christ,

That was 8/05 - right before the Eastern Christianity forum was created.

EO were in a subforum in Non-Catholic Religions and ECs had no designated venue. My guess, the thread later got pulled out of the Eastern Christianity forum by mistake when the Trad Cath forum was created (probably got mis-selected because of "latin" in the thread title).

The thread itself was not anyone's finest hour; I think it was created just before Joe took over and reined everyone in.

Many years,

Neil
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« Reply #930 on: December 13, 2007, 10:23:49 AM »

That was 8/05 - right before the Eastern Christianity forum was created.

EO were in a subforum in Non-Catholic Religions and ECs had no designated venue. My guess, the thread later got pulled out of the Eastern Christianity forum by mistake when the Trad Cath forum was created (probably got mis-selected because of "latin" in the thread title).

The thread itself was not anyone's finest hour; I think it was created just before Joe took over and reined everyone in.

Many years,

Neil

From it:

Quote
Originally Posted by GregoryPalamas
Fr. Ambrose,


Rather cheeky. Your reputation precedes you. Since the Church in communion with Rome precedes by a millenium the Church not in communion with Rome I invite you to rejoin the Church.

Dan L

Mickey's response:

Quote
Good one Dan.

Oh Mickey! How is it that things have changed so much  Cry

In Jesus Christ,
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« Reply #931 on: December 13, 2007, 03:37:02 PM »

I ask for forgiveness due to my harsh comment made about David the Byzcath during Advent...

james
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« Reply #932 on: December 13, 2007, 04:14:29 PM »

What did you do to merit that? As far as I can see, ever since he joined the Carmelites he didn't post much in the EC forum.
He was stubbornly opposed to the idea of an Eastern Christian forum. Since he thought of it as a ghetto, perhaps like a museum display case, or possibly putting EC's together in a cage to perform for visitors. Those were certainly some of my misgivings.

I understood his ideas/concerns and I was not discrediting that, in fact I defended it a couple of times. As Catholics, there is a lot to be said for mixing Byzantine issues into the main topics. They irony of a statement like "they are just as Catholic as we are" never escapes me. It should never have to be uttered, so an "in your face - in your thread" approach might be appropriate in some cases. CAF was rapidly sucking membership out of other discussion forums, it was quite evident, like a black hole, so more Roman Catholics would be seeing or learning things there than anywhere else, whether right information or wrong they would absorb it.

But there was much complaining about EC's interjecting all over the CAF, probably because of the experience of Latin Catholics who were put off by us always chiming in "now...in the Byzantine church we always do such and such" often contradicting or undermining some point they were trying to make  Roll Eyes . My position was, if your point doesn't stand in light of this information, "perhaps you are working under flawed assumptions". A good example might be someone claiming the Catholic church was better because they could have a Mass every day of the week, and the Mass was the same all over the world, they were proud of it. As ridiculous as that may seem, people made such statements and I called them on it.

Some people were making accusations, that we acted "superior" and always butted into threads inappropriately to show off our traditions and practices (a type of triumphalism, I suppose). I was convinced it was a good place to share our traditions and bring some balance to the discussions. One hears all the time comments from people who have had 12 years or more of Catholic education and were never told about the Eastern Catholics. Well, this is how we correct that problem, otherwise we only perpetuate the ignorance! Why should EC not contribute, because it makes them 'uncomfortable'? Because EC are 'inconvenient'? The Roman Catholic communion was making all kinds of claims for itself about universality, etc., but the fact is that was hard for many RC to deal with because it shattered some of their illusions about what being a Catholic really meant. Perhaps that is the psychological "engine" that drove the latinizations of years gone by, and perhaps still fuels the occasional accusations that EC are not good Catholics.

Anyway, I bought into the idea of an Eastern Christian forum, it couldn't be any worse than what we already had. It appeared to me that a change was inevitable and we might want to try and make the best of it. It was not an Eastern Catholic forum as such, which would have been a real ghetto and without many prospects. The scope was broader. If it worked on the model of the encouraging dialog and understanding between Eastern Christians there was a lot of potential in it.

David never saw it that way, he was always a "Catholic" first, and an Eastern Catholic second. So segregating EC topics into the new forum always irked him, since it left the impression that EC were "different" some how. I find it highly ironic that after the recent purge he posted the opinion that CAF did the right thing, it made the EC forum the real ghetto he had always opposed.

He also didn't take my conversion to Holy Orthodoxy very well, as I undestand it he converted some years ago to Catholicism, so we were on different trajectories.  His ancestors were in the Unia and so when he converted he identified with that.

James,
Your comment did not sound harsh to me. You are always so pleasant.

Michael
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« Reply #933 on: December 13, 2007, 05:53:20 PM »

The not getting along is a truthful statement...the other part was not required

james
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« Reply #934 on: December 13, 2007, 06:20:30 PM »

No I mean, three stricks your out, you have been a bad girl/boy, kind of points.

I am now at 10 points for various offenses. I wonder how many before I am kicked off? Other Latin Catholics will do EXACTLY what I do and not get a single point, merely a note. But I am racking up the points like no tommorrow. Huh

I dont really recall the points, but I do recall the warnings and suspensions and finally the bannings.

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« Reply #935 on: December 13, 2007, 08:26:26 PM »

You mean on CAF?

They got rid of the point system almost three years ago!

Are you stating that they brought it back? I have to check and see if I got some!  Shocked

I remember the first two week I was there, Karl Keating slapped 15 points on me with for complaining about how another Byzantine Catholic was suspended. Actually it was Dave "ByzCath", who doesn't seem to like me very much anymore ... Cry

Seriously.....................What in the world are they so uptight about?? Is all this ultra moderation really needed? Why cant they see how utterly over blown their tactics are?

And they are playing to all kinds of negative sterio-tyes of the RCC..... Sheesh !
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« Reply #936 on: December 14, 2007, 11:38:22 AM »

Seriously.....................What in the world are they so uptight about?? Is all this ultra moderation really needed? Why cant they see how utterly over blown their tactics are?

And they are playing to all kinds of negative sterio-tyes of the RCC..... Sheesh !
You are making a strong point here. They are giving a poor impression.

To many people, those with no other chance of exposure, the CAF is the Roman Catholic church. It has all the credibility of the EWTN (good or ill) for those types of people. It's the kind of thing the US Conference of Catholic Bishops could host, if they had a mind to. OCnet and Monachos do this for Holy Orthodoxy.

Non-Catholic (or non-Orthodox Catholic) ministers could log on in their dens and no one would know. All kind of people could get in to ask questions or lurk and even their spouses would not need to know. Much different than buying books that you would not want others to see on your desk, like in years gone by. The internet forums are a way of reaching around other societal barriers to communicate and learn. Since the internet browser was released to the public in about 1995 it has been showing itself to be an effective tool for building the Faith in people, and shattering the Faith.

For the provider, it is an absolutely awesome responsibility.
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« Reply #937 on: December 14, 2007, 03:35:55 PM »

Now I am locked out! I have been playing really nice lately too!
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« Reply #938 on: December 14, 2007, 03:39:45 PM »

I don't even have the title of  "banned" under my name. Even though my lock out will be lifted "never." Cry
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« Reply #939 on: December 14, 2007, 04:00:09 PM »

You are making a strong point here. They are giving a poor impression.

To many people, those with no other chance of exposure, the CAF is the Roman Catholic church. It has all the credibility of the EWTN (good or ill) for those types of people. It's the kind of thing the US Conference of Catholic Bishops could host, if they had a mind to. OCnet and Monachos do this for Holy Orthodoxy.

Non-Catholic (or non-Orthodox Catholic) ministers could log on in their dens and no one would know. All kind of people could get in to ask questions or lurk and even their spouses would not need to know. Much different than buying books that you would not want others to see on your desk, like in years gone by. The internet forums are a way of reaching around other societal barriers to communicate and learn. Since the internet browser was released to the public in about 1995 it has been showing itself to be an effective tool for building the Faith in people, and shattering the Faith.

For the provider, it is an absolutely awesome responsibility.

Excellent post. I have to agree. One of the final pushes for us into EO were the posts on CAF's Eastern Christianity section. That site (and many of the posters now here) were instrumental in our final decision.

Ironically, it was a Catholic book years and years ago that started my husband down the road to EO, and a "Catholic (big C as they would say on CAF) that ended the journey at Eo's door. Now we wait in excitement as inquirers Smiley
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« Reply #940 on: December 14, 2007, 04:06:50 PM »

Now I am locked out! I have been playing really nice lately too!

OK - so what did you do ?
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« Reply #941 on: December 14, 2007, 04:34:33 PM »

OK - so what did you do ?

I have no clue. There were no warning this morning when I posted. Then when I went to look at the site, I received the lock out notice. Other than the items I listed above, I have no clue what I could have done. The only thing I can THINK of, is that they read on here what I have written.
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« Reply #942 on: December 14, 2007, 04:35:38 PM »

I am still able to post (and being very careful....it's so creepy to have to weigh every word and often censor or rephrase things trying to guess what this week's standards are/ or where the invisible line is whose crossing will get you banned.

I am having trouble with the private message system.  I received a message, but can't seem to reply or get any out.  Is this  something that happens before you get banned, or a sign that you are being watched/  prevented from communicating with other CAF members?

Did this happen to anyone else? Huh
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« Reply #943 on: December 14, 2007, 07:26:29 PM »

I am still able to post (and being very careful....it's so creepy to have to weigh every word and often censor or rephrase things trying to guess what this week's standards are/ or where the invisible line is whose crossing will get you banned.

I am having trouble with the private message system.  I received a message, but can't seem to reply or get any out.  Is this  something that happens before you get banned, or a sign that you are being watched/  prevented from communicating with other CAF members?

Did this happen to anyone else? Huh


So you have aquired the rare talent of walking on eggs without breaking them?

Oops I detect a crack in the shell.

 
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« Reply #944 on: December 14, 2007, 07:37:12 PM »


So you have aquired the rare talent of walking on eggs without breaking them?


 

That remains to be seen, and I am not entirely sure it is a good thing to be doing...I somehow feel like I have agreed
to "burn just a tiny bit of incense" to avoid consequences, thinking it won't compromise my faith or affect my soul.   Undecided




Oops I detect a crack in the shell.

 

Do you have some inside information?  police
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