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Author Topic: catholic answers forum bars orthodox dicussion  (Read 271207 times) Average Rating: 0
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« Reply #1395 on: April 21, 2008, 01:59:08 PM »

Lord have mercy, Papist represent my views... Tongue

Egad, me becoming Orthodox and sponsored by Oz... Wink

I'm in bizarro mode...again  Grin
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« Reply #1396 on: April 21, 2008, 02:15:23 PM »

It would be rude if I was saying those things for the purpose of offending some one. But that was not my purspose. I said those things about him because they are true and the truth needs to be presented. Are we being rude or impolite when we call Arius or Martin Luther Heretics?

Was greekischristian's "con artist" remark rude? Or does the fact that he thought he was speaking the truth make him above such things, like you?
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« Reply #1397 on: April 21, 2008, 02:39:32 PM »

If some one can help convince you that the truth is not the truth, then that is dishonest.
What if someone helps you to understand that what you once thought was the fullness of truth, was only partial truth--and then helps to guide you to the fullness of truth.  Wink
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« Reply #1398 on: April 21, 2008, 02:49:15 PM »

I'm gonna take a break from OC.net until my status changes. Its pretty image impossible to participate in a discussion while under moderation. Not that I am criticizing the moderators for moderating me. I just have tried to have conversations under this status before and its impossible to keep up. See ya'll soon.
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« Reply #1399 on: April 21, 2008, 03:09:58 PM »

I'm gonna take a break from OC.net until my status changes. Its pretty image impossible to participate in a discussion while under moderation. Not that I am criticizing the moderators for moderating me. I just have tried to have conversations under this status before and its impossible to keep up. See ya'll soon.

This may seem off topic - but I don't think so [ Mods delete should you wish ]

It strikes me that once more we have childish posting from Papist - he won't post if he's moderated . Isn't this evading the issue ? He just wants to do it his way .

How is moderation applied - for a length of time ? For a specified number of posts ?

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« Reply #1400 on: April 21, 2008, 03:11:37 PM »

How is moderation applied - for a length of time ? For a specified number of posts ?

Length of time.
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« Reply #1401 on: April 21, 2008, 03:12:31 PM »

I think it's pretty wise of him to take a break to cool off a little.  
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« Reply #1402 on: April 21, 2008, 03:30:52 PM »

I think it's pretty wise of him to take a break to cool off a little.  
I think so too.
In fact, we all probably need a break from this issue to cool off for a while, after all, it is Holy Week.

This may seem off topic - but I don't think so [ Mods delete should you wish ]
We rarely if ever delete posts. The only posts we delete are spamming ones (such as ads for pornographic sites) or abusive posts. Most of the time, we simply move posts to a more appropriate area.

It strikes me that once more we have childish posting from Papist - he won't post if he's moderated . Isn't this evading the issue ? He just wants to do it his way .
Possibly. But in reality, what can a moderator do about this? All we can do is point out to him that he breached the forum rules by making an ad hominem against another forum member and discipline him. If he does it again, we have to discipline him again. All we can do is correct his forum ettiquette. Correcting his morality is the job of his Spiritual Father.



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Behold the Bridegroom cometh in the middle of the night!
And blessed is the servant He shall find to be awake!
Unworthy again is he whom He shall find heedless.
Beware therefore o my soul,
Lest thou be borne down with sleep,
Lest thou be given over unto death,
And shut out from the Kingdom.
Wherefore, arouse thyself and cry:
'Holy! Holy! Holy art Thou o our God!
Through the intercessions of the Theotokos, Saviour save us!
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« Reply #1403 on: April 21, 2008, 07:19:47 PM »

It would be rude if I was saying those things for the purpose of offending some one. But that was not my purspose. I said those things about him because they are true and the truth needs to be presented. Are we being rude or impolite when we call Arius or Martin Luther Heretics?

Ya...but..

We consider the Roman Church to be in schism from the One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church ( The Orthodox Church ) as you well know. Our case is well supported by the historical facts. Roman Catholics often come to understand this to be so. Many convert. 
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« Reply #1404 on: April 21, 2008, 07:39:53 PM »

Well, you are free to think that Mickey, but it does not change the fact that he was dishonest quite often.
*
I was never dishonest.  The thought appalls me.

But..... I spent a lot of time dealing with patristic quotes from Roman Catholics which which supposed to support the papacy.  These quotes were often mangled or truncated to make them appear to support the papacy.  *That* is dishonest. 

In most cases those offering the quotes were not personally guilty because they had simply harvested them from webpages.  But often they would keep presenting the same distorted quotes even after they had been shown the correct version.  At that stage it became dishonest.
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« Reply #1405 on: April 21, 2008, 09:40:50 PM »

Hello Father!
But..... I spent a lot of time dealing with patristic quotes from Roman Catholics which which supposed to support the papacy.  These quotes were often mangled or truncated to make them appear to support the papacy.  *That* is dishonest. 
Yes, I remember, this was how it was. One can see the process continuing with the same old mangled quotes and out of historical context assertions.

Unfortunately we do not have the knowledge or resources to counteract this, I myself lack preparation and I am tired of it, and almost all of the best Eastern Christian talent is gone.  Cry Hopefully some new informed Orthodox and Eastern Catholics will come in after Pascha (but I have my doubts).
In most cases those offering the quotes were not personally guilty because they had simply harvested them from webpages.  But often they would keep presenting the same distorted quotes even after they had been shown the correct version.  At that stage it became dishonest.
There are just too many people more focused on winning these little debates, than on the Truth. Little do they realize that it is the lurkers, those interested seekers, who are the real treasure of any discussion. Most of the time the interlocutors are fairly fixed in their positions and will not be budged, unless they are suffering from extreme cognitive dissonance and need some relief!

The many seekers comprising the audience are still quite capable of discerning ham from spam. The "canned" responses pasted from the old 'popular but inaccurate' sources are tiresome, and if they are properly refuted once, there is some chance the lurkers will remember.    Smiley

Love in Christ,
Michael
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« Reply #1406 on: April 21, 2008, 11:02:55 PM »

In the Ask an Apologist section of CAF someone has asked about the Holy Fire this coming Saturday.

There is already information about Pope Urban's positive assessment of this miracle on CAF at
http://forums.catholic.com/showthread.php?t=9620

And I've placed the Pope's words here on OC.net

* http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,15435.msg223316.html#msg223316 *



EDIT:  Link edited to reflect change in target location due to recent thread merger  -PtA
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« Reply #1407 on: April 22, 2008, 01:54:24 AM »

In the Ask an Apologist section of CAF someone has asked about the Holy Fire this coming Saturday.

Ah, the memories - Father Ambrose and I spent a bit of enforced time on the sidelines in CAF's early days (back when there was no space devoted specifically to the East) as a consequence of a discussion that developed over that very topic. I think our common aggravation regarding the matter (and how it was dealt with) was a significant factor in the friendship that we forged over time.

I will credit Michelle Arnold with a much more balanced stance in her reply to the query than the presentation by an unnamed senior CAF staffer that helped to lead Father and me into our subsequent rabble-rousing careers at CAF.  Grin

Many years,

Neil
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« Reply #1408 on: April 22, 2008, 02:12:33 AM »

Ah, the memories - Father Ambrose and I spent a bit of enforced time on the sidelines in CAF's early days (back when there was no space devoted specifically to the East) as a consequence of a discussion that developed over that very topic. I think our common aggravation regarding the matter (and how it was dealt with) was a significant factor in the friendship that we forged over time.

I will credit Michelle Arnold with a much more balanced stance in her reply to the query than the presentation by an unnamed senior CAF staffer that helped to lead Father and me into our subsequent rabble-rousing careers at CAF.  Grin

Neil
*
Yes, that was the Founder of Catholic Answers, Karl Keating.  He was saying that the Holy Fire is a fraud and the Patriarch uses a cigarette lighter.  I had no idea who Karl was at the time (I had just joined CAF) and so I replied with an expression of shock and outrage.  When I got to know how important he was and that people believed every word that came from his pen I was doubly shocked!

However he never had the decency to offer a retraction or an apology but he chose the easy option of deleting the thread.   Given that sort of behaviour and that sort of example from Karl himself, the attitude of his employees at CAF is understandable.....  except for Joe of course who was as honest as the day is long.  Many good memories of Joe.... I wonder how he's doing these days...
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« Reply #1409 on: April 22, 2008, 03:51:59 AM »

Yes, Father Ambrose, I wonder too about Joe.....

Joe was one of those managers that deserved a trophy and the raise for manager of the year.  Anyone of the former regulars will know what I am talking about.  He went the extra mile, the long extra mile for us. 

You know what would be better than finding the Easter Basket?  Coming home this Sunday, opening up oc.net and seeing a post from Joe.
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« Reply #1410 on: April 22, 2008, 04:41:11 AM »

8888
*
Username,

Your photo of John Ireland and the caption made me laugh.... here's another in the same vein....

Honouring the first victim of the Gregorian Calendar:




Saint Teresa of Avila

11 days and nights
passed away in the long night from Thursday October 4 to Friday October 15, 1582


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« Reply #1411 on: April 22, 2008, 08:01:14 AM »

I hear that the Minnesota Cathedral is being renovated.  Maybe the OCA should donate an Icon of St. Alexis Toth to the restored Cathedral, maybe have it placed next to a photo of Archbishop Ireland?

Blessed Holy Week to all.

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« Reply #1412 on: April 22, 2008, 09:11:57 AM »

Yes, Father Ambrose, I wonder too about Joe.....

I've also expressed my curiosity about what he's up to these days.

You know what would be better than finding the Easter Basket?  Coming home this Sunday, opening up oc.net and seeing a post from Joe.

Personally, I'm indifferent to whether he posts on OCnet or not. What I'd like to see is Joe hosting a new forum -- even just a Yahoo group, if need be.

-Peter.
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« Reply #1413 on: April 22, 2008, 10:25:10 AM »

I've also expressed my curiosity about what he's up to these days.
If I ever run into him, he'll be drinking beer all night on my tab, I swear! We'll be staggering out on the street singing hymns!

That is...provided it's not a fasting period, I guess...  Undecided
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« Reply #1414 on: April 22, 2008, 10:41:51 AM »

Hang on Michael

you said
Quote
If I ever run into him, he'll be drinking beer all night on my tab, I swear! We'll be staggering out on the street singing hymns!

Dont forget beer is only liquid bread Smiley
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« Reply #1415 on: April 22, 2008, 10:43:19 AM »

That is...provided it's not a fasting period, I guess...  Undecided
Is beer included as foods/beverages of which we must abstain?  Roll Eyes
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« Reply #1416 on: April 22, 2008, 10:44:41 AM »

Dont forget beer is only liquid bread Smiley
You beat me to the punch!  laugh
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« Reply #1417 on: April 22, 2008, 11:50:55 AM »

Punch? We have punch here, too?
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« Reply #1418 on: April 22, 2008, 11:58:15 AM »

of course  Grin

which version it is depends on your calendar
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« Reply #1419 on: April 22, 2008, 12:11:18 PM »

of course  Grin

which version it is depends on your calendar
*
And your nationality.  It was a shock to discover, when I moved from the Serbian to the Russian Church, that the Russians have extended the "No Wine" to include "No Beer and No Spirits."   

Is this normal?  Or is it part of some puritanical New World thing which interprets "wine" as meaning "anything with alcohol"?  Is this an innovation?  Or is it also followed back in the home countries?

During the very cold mornings during the Great Fast in Serbia after about 5 freezing hours in a stone church without heating, the morning glass of warm slivovitsa was very welcome when we had to go to our "obediences" in the monastery, in the cow shed or whatever.
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« Reply #1420 on: April 22, 2008, 12:42:51 PM »

GOOD GRIEF !

Well I will admit that normally no wine includes no spirits for me - but beer is on the menu .

I can well understand that a warming glass was very very welcome .



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« Reply #1421 on: April 22, 2008, 01:42:44 PM »

^For Mr. Y and I, we tend to give up beer and spirits as well as wine during the fasts because they're just so expensive.  (The kind worth drinking is, anyway.)  We belong to an OCA parish and I'm not sure if that's a parish-wide thing or just us being a poor, newly married couple with a new baby.
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« Reply #1422 on: April 22, 2008, 03:09:16 PM »

In my experience Greeks see beer, wine, and spirits as the same.
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« Reply #1423 on: April 22, 2008, 03:18:54 PM »

Lord have mercy, Papist represent my views... Tongue

I can't say I share your views; but in all fairness, you are in good company. In fact, many Catholics and Orthodox believe that to leave the one true church (which they identify, respectively, as the [Roman] Catholic Church and the Orthodox Church) is to forfeit one's salvation.

Blessings,
Peter.

P.S. Whoa! I just realized that this " ... forfeit one's salvation" post brings my count up to 666.

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« Reply #1424 on: April 22, 2008, 03:27:15 PM »

There, that's better.

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« Reply #1425 on: April 22, 2008, 03:39:59 PM »

I can't say I share your views; but in all fairness, you are in good company. In fact, P.S. Whoa! I just realized that this " ... forfeit one's salvation" post brings my count up to 666.
It looks like the moderators removed the beastly number from your resume!  Wink

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« Reply #1426 on: April 22, 2008, 04:03:46 PM »

In my experience Greeks see beer, wine, and spirits as the same. 

I don't - thank the Lord.  Neither does my spiritual father.  Thank the Lord.
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« Reply #1427 on: April 22, 2008, 04:06:50 PM »

In my experience Greeks see beer, wine, and spirits as the same.

Indeed, and in my house as well. All are avoided during any fast except when  "wine" specifically is allowed.
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« Reply #1428 on: April 22, 2008, 04:24:01 PM »

^ So do I. But I do occasionally drink a glass of bread. Wink
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« Reply #1429 on: April 22, 2008, 04:41:37 PM »

*
Are you here to lead the Orthodox anywhere?

Once N. Pavovich asked the Elder,  'is it possible to hope for the
unification of the churches?'

" He replied,  'No! only an Ecumenical Council could do that, but there will
be no more councils.  There have already been seven councils, like the seven
sacraments and the seven gifts of the Holy Spirit.   For our age, the number
of fullness is the number seven.   Eight is the number of the future age.
Only separate people will be united to our Church."

Wow, what breathtaking presumption.
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« Reply #1430 on: April 22, 2008, 04:52:30 PM »

I don't - thank the Lord.  Neither does my spiritual father.  Thank the Lord.
Wanna swap Spiritual Fathers?

Wow, what breathtaking presumption.
So is that.
Its only "presumption" if a union actually takes place.....
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« Reply #1431 on: April 22, 2008, 05:00:21 PM »


It's a very sad fact that many of the RCC people in the pew AND their priests and Hierarchs are totally ignorant of the Christian East

Why is this a surprise? In most heavily Catholic countries, EO are a tiny minority. I mean tiny. In the US, they are a step above invisible. Go to an EO parish in Romania and you are likely to find similar levels of ignorance about Catholicism.

I agree with you it is sad, but it is pretty unremarkable.
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« Reply #1432 on: April 22, 2008, 05:02:37 PM »

Its only "presumption" if a union actually takes place.....

To presume absolutely and definitively that no further ecumenical councils are possible? This, while EO hierarchs have been working on putting one together since the 1920s? Is he a synod unto himself?
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« Reply #1433 on: April 22, 2008, 05:04:09 PM »

BTW, it's ironic at the same time to see the Elder's use of the Latin "seven sacraments" and "seven gifts of the Holy Spirit." He's built his whole case about no more ecumenical councils being possible on basic elements from the Catholic catechism.
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« Reply #1434 on: April 22, 2008, 05:19:47 PM »

Why is this a surprise? In most heavily Catholic countries, EO are a tiny minority. I mean tiny. In the US, they are a step above invisible. Go to an EO parish in Romania and you are likely to find similar levels of ignorance about Catholicism.


Eh, I don't know.  Your most isolated Romanian (or anywhere) Orthodox parish would probably at least know that the Roman Catholic Church exists and could probably even tell you something about it, even if it ends up being a caricature.

The average Roman Catholic doesn't even know Eastern Catholics exist and just knows that the Russians and the Greeks are "Orthodox", whatever that means.
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« Reply #1435 on: April 22, 2008, 05:55:23 PM »

Eh, I don't know.  Your most isolated Romanian (or anywhere) Orthodox parish would probably at least know that the Roman Catholic Church exists and could probably even tell you something about it, even if it ends up being a caricature.

The average Roman Catholic doesn't even know Eastern Catholics exist and just knows that the Russians and the Greeks are "Orthodox", whatever that means.

I agree. Ignorance of Orthodoxy is understandable to a point; but I've just seen too much of it from too many Catholics who ought to know better.

But on a more positive note: how's "Big Papi", lubeltri?
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« Reply #1436 on: April 22, 2008, 05:56:18 PM »

To presume absolutely and definitively that no further ecumenical councils are possible? This, while EO hierarchs have been working on putting one together since the 1920s? Is he a synod unto himself?

When it comes to pass, you may crow all you like about it.
Nietzsche pronounced God dead on arrival, and our age agrees- does this mean that to believe in the Second Coming is "presumption"?

BTW, it's ironic at the same time to see the Elder's use of the Latin "seven sacraments" and "seven gifts of the Holy Spirit." He's built his whole case about no more ecumenical councils being possible on basic elements from the Catholic catechism.
Huh
The Gifts of the Holy Spirit are Scriptural, not "Catholic".
There are indeed Seven Mysterions (Sacraments): Baptism, Chrisimation, Holy Unction, Cheirotonia, Marriage, Repentance, and Communion. The other thing that could possibly be considered a Mysterion is The Great Blessing of Water, but it is not counted among the Seven.

Calm yourself....It's our Holy Week.
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« Reply #1437 on: April 23, 2008, 10:28:38 AM »

*
And your nationality.  It was a shock to discover, when I moved from the Serbian to the Russian Church, that the Russians have extended the "No Wine" to include "No Beer and No Spirits."   



So wine drinkers have to suffer more than Whiskey drinkers?

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Marc1152
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« Reply #1438 on: April 23, 2008, 11:35:47 AM »

Why is this a surprise? In most heavily Catholic countries, EO are a tiny minority. I mean tiny. In the US, they are a step above invisible. Go to an EO parish in Romania and you are likely to find similar levels of ignorance about Catholicism.

I agree with you it is sad, but it is pretty unremarkable.

I think it depends on where you live. Here in the Washington DC metro area there are around twenty Orthodox Church's and three Cathedrals, St. Sophia, St. Nicholas and St. John the Baptist. The Greek Church in the suburbs is expanding and the Romanians are building a big new Church. The Antiocian Church in Potomac is gigantic. We are certainly small in comparison to the RCC, but hardly invisible.

Ignorance does abound though. I have to go  a business luncheon on Thursday and told the organizer that I may not be able to get there until late since it is Holy Week and there are services in the morning. I said ( clearly) that I am Russian Orthodox and our "Easter" is this Sunday. She said she could arrange for a Kosher meal for me Smiley
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Your idea has been debunked 1000 times already.. Maybe 1001 will be the charm
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« Reply #1439 on: April 23, 2008, 11:50:49 AM »

Well, I certainly consider the Council of 879 as the Eighth Council and the Councils defending Heyschasm as the Ninth Council.  I don't think there can be anymore ecumenical councils because there is no more empire (ecumenical = empire).  However, pan orthodox councils can and have been called since then.  And before someone says, "see, Orthodox! you don't even know how many councils there are!" check out Fr Francis Dvornik's article on our articles page which explains the history of councils in the RC Church especially and how the numbers changed several times.
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