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the slave
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« Reply #1350 on: April 18, 2008, 05:58:54 PM »

Quote
I am not even gonna get into the semantics of Church names again. I am tired. Its friday. I am going home soon.
But, I just want to you to know that I was talking about Fr. Ambrose specifically. I think he was raised Catholic. Although I could be mistaken.


Whether you are mistaken or not this is not something YOU should bring up . If Fr Ambrose wishes to - that's up to him.

Speculatiing about people's backgrounds is not something that should be done in public.

A little courtesy and common politeness goes a long way .

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« Reply #1351 on: April 18, 2008, 10:28:17 PM »

I am not even gonna get into the semantics of Church names again. I am tired. Its friday. I am going home soon.
But, I just want to you to know that I was talking about Fr. Ambrose specifically. I think he was raised Catholic. Although I could be mistaken.
Indeed, during a difficult time in the marriage of my parents, my grandparents placed me in Catholic schools and I had the blessing of going right through the Catholic education system prior to Vatican II.
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« Reply #1352 on: April 19, 2008, 12:19:55 PM »

CAf Alert!

See the thread "Papal Problems...Continued"  In the Non-Catholic section.

Start at message 105.

Mickey and ForeverAdam, thank for your messages answering East and West.


I went to view this thread today before coming to this forum and it was gone.  Any idea what happened?  I missed something.  I have been rather busy preparing for my thesis defense, so I had not been reading closely. 

Okay, I picked up as I read on this thread, so no one need really answer my question Wink

Thanks :-)
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« Reply #1353 on: April 19, 2008, 02:58:55 PM »

^Well, in any case, welcome to the forum!
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« Reply #1354 on: April 19, 2008, 07:55:31 PM »

I went to view this thread today before coming to this forum and it was gone.  Any idea what happened?  I missed something.  I have been rather busy preparing for my thesis defense, so I had not been reading closely. 

Okay, I picked up as I read on this thread, so no one need really answer my question Wink

Thanks :-)

Smiley Same thing happened to me: I read the "CAF alert" post, went looking for that thread, couldn't find it, came back here and discovered someone had said it disappeared. Smiley
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« Reply #1355 on: April 19, 2008, 08:08:54 PM »

Smiley Same thing happened to me: I read the "CAF alert" post, went looking for that thread, couldn't find it, came back here and discovered someone had said it disappeared. Smiley
*
I guess it shows that even the CAF employees were shocked by Papist's (East and West's) attack on me. 

Fr Ambrose
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« Reply #1356 on: April 19, 2008, 08:48:28 PM »

*
I guess it shows that even the CAF employees were shocked by Papist's (East and West's) attack on me. 

Fr Ambrose

I can't really say anything about that attack, not having witnessed it; but speaking generally, I've noticed Papist on occasion go beyond even what I've come to expect from the CAF.  Cry

It sure would be nice to have "Classic Papist" back again.
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« Reply #1357 on: April 19, 2008, 09:18:11 PM »

I guess it shows that even the CAF employees were shocked by Papist's (East and West's) attack on me. 

Though Papist's words were indeed very nasty, I think a more likely reason for its deletion was that someone mentioned the banned Orthodox posters.
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« Reply #1358 on: April 20, 2008, 03:00:53 AM »

I never saw it either [ possibly that time difference 'thing' ] but having said that

I'm totally astounded that Papist gets away with his attitude.

I'm tired of his attacks and childish behaviour.

I'm tired of being hit over the head with a 4 foot plank.

When will he realise that he actually does not attract folk to catholicism - he repels them due to his antics .

Papist really needs to learn to be tolerant of other people's strongly held views.

He needs to learn that clergy , whether they are of his particular church or not , have studied much and deserve respect
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« Reply #1359 on: April 20, 2008, 01:22:58 PM »

Not all clergy deserve respect. If you remember, Arius was a remember of the clergy. Now, I am not suggesting that anyone here is as bad as Arius. I am just using him as an example that not all clergy members deserve respect.
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« Reply #1360 on: April 20, 2008, 04:30:12 PM »

There are a few bad apples in every barrel unfortunately Sad

I notice though that you made no comment on the rest of my comments.

So -- do I take it that they have struck home and you have thought about them ?
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« Reply #1361 on: April 20, 2008, 06:03:12 PM »

I don't think that any response I give to your comments will be helpful. Whether I agree or disagree.
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« Reply #1362 on: April 20, 2008, 06:16:20 PM »

Not all clergy deserve respect. If you remember, Arius was a remember of the clergy. Now, I am not suggesting that anyone here is as bad as Arius. I am just using him as an example that not all clergy members deserve respect.
*
Absolutely true.

Besides Arius we remember Saint Josaphat Kuntsevych the Butcher of the Orthodox.
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« Reply #1363 on: April 20, 2008, 09:04:36 PM »

Father Ambrose,

At the risk of sounding like a dad at a parent teacher conference, what exactly did Papist (Chris) do?
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« Reply #1364 on: April 20, 2008, 10:01:51 PM »

I think that I'm the reason why the thread, "Papal Problems . . . Continued" was removed.  I reported one of East and West/Papist's posts to the moderator on Friday morning and when I returned to check the thread later Friday afternoon it was gone.  I had hoped that the mods would simply clean up the thread (I remember Joe Monahan doing that to some threads in the past).  However, it was entirely removed.  I find that unfortunate, as I was in the midst of a couple discussions.  However, there are always other threads.  Hopefully, our friend will not disrupt any more threads with his personal problems with Father Ambrose. 

P.S.  I'm glad that I got to defend your priestly dignity, Fr. Ambrose.  Please remember me in your prayers as I continue to defend the Church on the forum.  Thanks.  Smiley

God bless,

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« Reply #1365 on: April 20, 2008, 11:57:25 PM »

Father Ambrose,

At the risk of sounding like a dad at a parent teacher conference, what exactly did Papist (Chris) do?
I criticized him for leading people away from the Catholic Church.
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« Reply #1366 on: April 21, 2008, 05:09:27 AM »

I criticized him for leading people away from the Catholic Church.

It was not criticism. It was libel; but the good priest-monk overlooks that.
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« Reply #1367 on: April 21, 2008, 05:14:07 AM »

I criticized him for leading people away from the Catholic Church.
*
Are you here to lead the Orthodox anywhere?

Once N. Pavovich asked the Elder,  'is it possible to hope for the
unification of the churches?'

" He replied,  'No! only an Ecumenical Council could do that, but there will
be no more councils.  There have already been seven councils, like the seven
sacraments and the seven gifts of the Holy Spirit.   For our age, the number
of fullness is the number seven.   Eight is the number of the future age.
Only separate people will be united to our Church."

Source Elder Nektary of Optina By I.M. Kontzevitch Pages 181 and 182

Fr Ambrose

-oOo-

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« Reply #1368 on: April 21, 2008, 05:47:28 AM »

I criticized him for leading people away from the Catholic Church.


People have to be allowed to investigate for themselves .

No-one can be forced into making a decision of this type [ 'doxing ]

You would criticise anyone for entering the Catholic Church without doing background reading and investigation over time [ isn't that what RCIA is meant for - basic education ? No-one on that line of education makes a commitment till the course is finished ]

No-one can lead someone away from something unless they are ready .

I have never known Fr Ambrose to do what you state he does  - he knows full well as a Priest,  that people do things after thought , study and only when they are convinced in themselves that it is right for them.

[Edt] I am reminded of the old saying , and it's worth remembering  Smiley ,  " You can lead a horse to water but you can't make him drink " [/edit]
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« Reply #1369 on: April 21, 2008, 07:06:20 AM »

MODERATION:
I have split off the latest tangent in this thread and moved it here:
http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,15541.msg223044.html#msg223044
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« Reply #1370 on: April 21, 2008, 09:15:55 AM »

It was not criticism. It was libel; but the good priest-monk overlooks that.

I thought maybe he had accused Father Ambrose of being a con-artist, or something like that. (Not that I know Papist well enough to anticipate his actions.)
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« Reply #1371 on: April 21, 2008, 09:36:51 AM »


People have to be allowed to investigate for themselves .

No-one can be forced into making a decision of this type [ 'doxing ]

You would criticise anyone for entering the Catholic Church without doing background reading and investigation over time [ isn't that what RCIA is meant for - basic education ? No-one on that line of education makes a commitment till the course is finished ]

No-one can lead someone away from something unless they are ready .

I have never known Fr Ambrose to do what you state he does  - he knows full well as a Priest,  that people do things after thought , study and only when they are convinced in themselves that it is right for them.

[Edt] I am reminded of the old saying , and it's worth remembering  Smiley ,  " You can lead a horse to water but you can't make him drink " [/edit]

Regardless of how "ready" anyone is, it is gravely sinful to help some one leave the Catholic Church.
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« Reply #1372 on: April 21, 2008, 09:39:36 AM »

I thought maybe he had accused Father Ambrose of being a con-artist, or something like that. (Not that I know Papist well enough to anticipate his actions.)
There are some of his words on CAF reproduced here
http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,15541.msg222284.html#msg222284

I never kept any copies.
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« Reply #1373 on: April 21, 2008, 09:50:14 AM »

*

Once N. Pavovich asked the Elder,  'is it possible to hope for the
unification of the churches?'

" He replied,  'No! only an Ecumenical Council could do that, but there will
be no more councils.  There have already been seven councils, like the seven
sacraments and the seven gifts of the Holy Spirit.   For our age, the number
of fullness is the number seven.   Eight is the number of the future age.
Only separate people will be united to our Church."

Source Elder Nektary of Optina By I.M. Kontzevitch Pages 181 and 182

Fr Ambrose

-oOo-



Interesting that you should use that source....

Still before the appearance of the declaration of Metropolitan Sergei that very summer of 1927, Elder Nektary of Optina, in a conversation with visiting Professors Kamarovich and Anichkov, called Metropolitan Sergei an innovator. And when it was objected that the latter had repented, the elder answered, "Yes, he repented, but the poison is still imbedded inside him." To his spiritual children, the Elder Nektary used to say, "To the Red Church, do not go." The first citation is taken from the book by I. M. Kontzevich, The Optina Desert and Its Time (p. 546).
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« Reply #1374 on: April 21, 2008, 10:17:41 AM »

Though Papist's words were indeed very nasty, I think a more likely reason for its deletion was that someone mentioned the banned Orthodox posters.

There could be a combination of reasons; but from what I've seen of the thread, Papist's comments seem like just the sort of thing that CAF mods would censure. (They're not completely unprincipled, you know. Smiley) Although why the entire thread is gone is something of a mystery.

My 2 cents.
-Peter.
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« Reply #1375 on: April 21, 2008, 11:12:10 AM »

Oh come on PJ - it's easier to delete a whole thread than just the offending post  Wink

Now to business Cheesy

As for the post of Papist's to which  OzGeorge linked  - well words fail me once more - lack of courtesy , impolite , do I need to go any further ?

As for the comment about being ready to move/change - I would remind you  all that Papist's words are
Quote
Regardless of how "ready" anyone is, it is gravely sinful to help some one leave the Catholic Church.

Surely that only applies to someone who is Catholic [ meaning at this point ROMAN not ORTHODOX ]

Since Fr Ambrose is Orthodox that doesn't apply to him  Grin Grin

I have always thought Fr Ambrose very restrained , like other Orthodox Priests  with whom I am in contact - they do not push , they give facts and say you have to make up your own mind. Decisions re changing Church either from RC to EC or to Orthodoxy have to be informed decisions.
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« Reply #1376 on: April 21, 2008, 11:40:18 AM »

Oh come on PJ - it's easier to delete a whole thread than just the offending post  Wink

Now to business Cheesy

As for the post of Papist's to which  OzGeorge linked  - well words fail me once more - lack of courtesy , impolite , do I need to go any further ?
Just make things clear, I did not post those things on an Eastern Orthodox Forum as I thought that it would be rude to do. However, what I wrote was not impolite, in the objective sense. In fact the things I wrote were true. Fr. Ambrose was very versed in using dishonest apologetic techniques. Unfortunately his posts over at CAF don't exist anymore so I cannot cite them.
As for the comment about being ready to move/change - I would remind you  all that Papist's words are
Surely that only applies to someone who is Catholic [ meaning at this point ROMAN not ORTHODOX ]

Since Fr Ambrose is Orthodox that doesn't apply to him  Grin Grin

I have always thought Fr Ambrose very restrained , like other Orthodox Priests  with whom I am in contact - they do not push , they give facts and say you have to make up your own mind. Decisions re changing Church either from RC to EC or to Orthodoxy have to be informed decisions.
But because of Fr. Ambrose dishonest techiniques, these decisions are not informed. Regardless, he helped people out of the Roman Catholic Church and that is gravely sinful from a Roman Catholic POV.
And just to make this matter clear. I did not make these comments on this forum. I thought that it would not be appropriate to do so here. I made them on a Catholic forum. It was Ozgeorge who has some kinda weird obession with me brought these comments here. For some reason he is interenet stalking me, found my comments on CAF and reposted them here.

Edited to specify the Roman Catholic Church.

-- Friul
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« Reply #1377 on: April 21, 2008, 12:12:03 PM »

^Actually, I believe it was Fr. Ambrose who mentioned it.

CAf Alert!

See the thread "Papal Problems...Continued"  In the Non-Catholic section.

Start at message 105.

Mickey and ForeverAdam, thank for your messages answering East and West.

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« Reply #1378 on: April 21, 2008, 12:12:56 PM »

Just make things clear, I did not post those things on an Eastern Orthodox Forum as I thought that it would be rude to do. However, what I wrote was not impolite, in the objective sense.

I don't think you even know what the words "rude" and "impolite" mean (and I even doubt your understanding of "objective").

Maybe you and greekischristian should team up and start your own website. Then you can each be as rude as you like. But if you're going to say offensive things on CAF or OCnet, you shouldn't be surprised when people call you on it.

God bless,
Peter.
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« Reply #1379 on: April 21, 2008, 12:26:43 PM »

Regardless, he helped people out of the Roman Catholic Church and that is gravely sinful from a Roman Catholic POV.

...

Edited to specify the Roman Catholic Church.

-- Friul


Friul,

I understand your policy regarding the phrases "the Church" and "the Roman Catholic Church".

But I have to take issue with the second group of words you inserted, "from a Roman Catholic POV". Actually, what Papist is claiming here (that it's gravely sinful for an Orthodox to help Catholics convert to Orthodoxy) is just his own personal opinion. He does not represent his fellow Catholics.

God bless,
Peter.
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« Reply #1380 on: April 21, 2008, 12:32:58 PM »

Friul,

I understand your policy regarding the phrases "the Church" and "the Roman Catholic Church".

But I have to take issue with the second group of words you inserted, "from a Roman Catholic POV". Actually, what Papist is claiming here (that it's gravely sinful for an Orthodox to help Catholics convert to Orthodoxy) is just his own personal opinion. He does not represent his fellow Catholics.

God bless,
Peter.
Actually its not just personal opion. To help some one leave the Church, to help them commit the sin of schism is gravely immoral. Remember what Christ said about millstones.
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« Reply #1381 on: April 21, 2008, 12:43:32 PM »

I don't think you even know what the words "rude" and "impolite" mean (and I even doubt your understanding of "objective").

Maybe you and greekischristian should team up and start your own website. Then you can each be as rude as you like. But if you're going to say offensive things on CAF or OCnet, you shouldn't be surprised when people call you on it.

God bless,
Peter.
It would be rude if I was saying those things for the purpose of offending some one. But that was not my purspose. I said those things about him because they are true and the truth needs to be presented. Are we being rude or impolite when we call Arius or Martin Luther Heretics?
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« Reply #1382 on: April 21, 2008, 12:44:13 PM »

PJ said this
Quote
But I have to take issue with the second group of words you inserted, "from a Roman Catholic POV". Actually, what Papist is claiming here (that it's gravely sinful for an Orthodox to help Catholics convert to Orthodoxy) is just his own personal opinion. He does not represent his fellow Catholics.


Sadly this is an attitude that is emphasised frequenty on CAF , the insistence that anyone who helps someone to leave the Catholic Church , is gravely sinning. [Yes Friul I do mean the RCC but that's not the way our wee friend writes it ]

The fact still remains that the RC Church insists that all decisions that you make have to be informed ones - and without the knowledge that Fr Ambrose and the other Orthodox members and EC members provided , many ordinary members of the RC Church would not even know that anything else existed.

It's a very sad fact that many of the RCC people in the pew AND their priests and Hierarchs are totally ignorant of the Christian East

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« Reply #1383 on: April 21, 2008, 12:45:42 PM »

It would be rude if I was saying those things for the purpose of offending some one. But that was not my purspose. I said those things about him because they are true and the truth needs to be presented. Are we being rude or impolite when we call Arius or Martin Luther Heretics?

Truth does not have to be presented in a way that is rude and impolite , and you seem to have a wonderful talent in this direction
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« Reply #1384 on: April 21, 2008, 12:46:43 PM »

Truth does not have to be presented in a way that is rude and impolite , and you seem to have a wonderful talent in this direction
But it wasn't rude. Again, it was just stating what Fr. Ambrose does.
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« Reply #1385 on: April 21, 2008, 01:05:36 PM »

But it wasn't rude. Again, it was just stating what Fr. Ambrose does.

Hmmm....Let's see:

"DUDE!!! Father Ambrose was one of he most dishonest reporters of Church history, one of the worst anti-Catholic biggots, and one of the rudest trolls ever to grace the Catholic Answers forums!!! I am surprised that some one as honest and charitable as yourself would listen to the likes of him. YOU are way too good for that! "

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« Reply #1386 on: April 21, 2008, 01:09:44 PM »

Fr. Ambrose was very versed in using dishonest apologetic techniques.
On the contrary. I thought that Fr Ambrose's posts were as honest as they come. Not only was there the ring of truth to his personal comments, but the articles he cited provided a wealth of information. I had been on a journey long before I ran into Fr Ambrose in cyber space. But his wisdom and love were greatly appreciated as I journeyed to the true Catholic Church--the Holy Orthodox Catholic Church.

One Patriarchate removed itself from the other four. I am at great peace having returned to the fold.

Thank you Fr Ambrose (and many others)

Mickey
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« Reply #1387 on: April 21, 2008, 01:10:55 PM »

On the contrary. I thought that Fr Ambrose's posts were as honest as they come. Not only was there the ring of truth to his personal comments, but the articles he cited provided a wealth of information. I had been on a journey long before I ran into Fr Ambrose in cyber space. But his wisdom and love were greatly appreciated as I journeyed to the true Catholic Church--the Holy Orthodox Catholic Church.

One Patriarchate removed itself from the other four. I am at great peace having returned to the fold.

Thank you Fr Ambrose (and many others)

Mickey
Well, you are free to think that Mickey, but it does not change the fact that he was dishonest quite often.
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« Reply #1388 on: April 21, 2008, 01:11:49 PM »

Hmmm....Let's see:

"DUDE!!! Father Ambrose was one of he most dishonest reporters of Church history, one of the worst anti-Catholic biggots, and one of the rudest trolls ever to grace the Catholic Answers forums!!! I am surprised that some one as honest and charitable as yourself would listen to the likes of him. YOU are way too good for that! "


Again, this just describes who he is and what he does.
 Moderated due to continual ad hominems against a member of the Orthodox clergy. 

Have a Blessed Holy Week.
 Moderated due to continual ad hominems against a member of the Orthodox clergy. 

Have a Blessed Holy Week.
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« Reply #1389 on: April 21, 2008, 01:16:28 PM »

And once more your last reply  just demonstrates how rude and impolite you are
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« Reply #1390 on: April 21, 2008, 01:18:44 PM »

And once more your last reply  just demonstrates how rude and impolite you are
Yawn.
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« Reply #1391 on: April 21, 2008, 01:25:44 PM »

Well, you are free to think that Mickey, but it does not change the fact that he was dishonest quite often.
I never saw that--and without concrete examples of his dishonesty, it is not polite that you keep repeating the accusation.
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« Reply #1392 on: April 21, 2008, 01:26:51 PM »

The concrete examples were deleted by CAF. But If some one can help convince you that the truth is not the truth, then that is dishonest.
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« Reply #1393 on: April 21, 2008, 01:33:52 PM »

Quote
The concrete examples were deleted by CAF. But If some one can help convince you that the truth is not the truth, then that is dishonest.

Is truth only in Catholicism ?

And be careful how you answer that one Smiley
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« Reply #1394 on: April 21, 2008, 01:46:27 PM »


Behold the Bridegroom cometh in the middle of the night!
And blessed is the servant He shall find to be awake!
Unworthy again is he whom He shall find heedless.
Beware therefore o my soul,
Lest thou be borne down with sleep,
Lest thou be given over unto death,
And shut out from the Kingdom.
Wherefore, arouse thyself and cry:
'Holy! Holy! Holy art Thou o our God!
Through the intercessions of the Theotokos, Saviour save us!
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