ignatius
Baptacathadox
High Elder
 Offline
Faith: Roman Catholic > Eastern Orthodox
Jurisdiction: OCA - Diocese of the South
Posts: 1,689
My Son Aidan... :-)
|
 |
« on: November 05, 2007, 12:51:36 PM » |
|
Salve!
What exactly was wrong about Pelagianism? What did Pelagius teach that was in error?
|
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
St Basil the Great (330-379 A.D.): “I think then that the one goal of all who are really and truly serving the Lord ought to be to bring back to union the churches who have at different times and in diverse manners divided from one another.”
|
|
|
|
Αριστοκλής
|
|
« Reply #1 on: November 05, 2007, 12:56:14 PM » |
|
|
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
"Religion is a neurobiological illness and Orthodoxy is its cure." - Fr. John S. Romanides
|
|
|
ignatius
Baptacathadox
High Elder
Offline
Faith: Roman Catholic > Eastern Orthodox
Jurisdiction: OCA - Diocese of the South
Posts: 1,689
My Son Aidan... :-)
|
|
« Reply #2 on: November 05, 2007, 01:13:04 PM » |
|
I don't see where he was in error? |
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
St Basil the Great (330-379 A.D.): “I think then that the one goal of all who are really and truly serving the Lord ought to be to bring back to union the churches who have at different times and in diverse manners divided from one another.”
|
|
|
Heorhij
Hoplitarches
Offline
Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: GOA, for now, but my heart belongs to the Ukrainian Orthodox Church
Posts: 8,576
|
|
« Reply #3 on: November 05, 2007, 02:41:28 PM » |
|
As far as I recall, his main motto was "possere non peccare," meaning, "it is possible not to sin." He meant it in the sense that a human being is perfectly able to be born, grow up, age, and die without committing any sin. Further, he taught that even if God does not shed His saving grace on a person, that person can by his/her effort appreciate what Christ did for the humankind, repent, be forgiven, and be saved. --G.
|
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
Love never fails.
|
|
|
Tzimis
Site Supporter
OC.net guru
Offline
Faith: Greek Orthodox
Jurisdiction: GOA
Posts: 2,360
|
|
« Reply #4 on: November 05, 2007, 03:12:37 PM » |
|
If this is the same Religion that allows multiple wives? Than I would definitely joint if I weren't Orthodox.  Thank God he gave me good looks instead of brains.  |
|
|
|
« Last Edit: November 05, 2007, 03:12:58 PM by Demetrios G. »
|
Logged
|
Excellence of character, then, is a state concerned with choice, lying in a mean relative to us, this being determined by reason and in the way in which the man of practical wisdom would determine it. Now it is a mean between two vices, that which depends on excess and that which depends on defect.
|
|
|
|
minasoliman
|
|
« Reply #5 on: November 05, 2007, 03:38:50 PM » |
|
|
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
Vain existence can never exist, for \\\"unless the LORD builds the house, the builders labor in vain.\\\" (Psalm 127)
If the faith is unchanged and rock solid, then the gates of Hades never prevailed in the end.
|
|
|
ignatius
Baptacathadox
High Elder
Offline
Faith: Roman Catholic > Eastern Orthodox
Jurisdiction: OCA - Diocese of the South
Posts: 1,689
My Son Aidan... :-)
|
|
« Reply #6 on: November 05, 2007, 04:11:37 PM » |
|
Yes, so my question is what is wrong with Pelagianism? Is Pelagius a Saint in Orthodoxy? |
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
St Basil the Great (330-379 A.D.): “I think then that the one goal of all who are really and truly serving the Lord ought to be to bring back to union the churches who have at different times and in diverse manners divided from one another.”
|
|
|
Heorhij
Hoplitarches
Offline
Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: GOA, for now, but my heart belongs to the Ukrainian Orthodox Church
Posts: 8,576
|
|
« Reply #7 on: November 05, 2007, 04:47:01 PM » |
|
Yes, so my question is what is wrong with Pelagianism? Is Pelagius a Saint in Orthodoxy?
AFAIK, his teaching was declared a heresy way before the Great Schism of 1054, so no, he cannot be a saint. As for what's wrong, the Church teaches that man cannot live and not sin - everyone sins. Also, without cooperation with God's grace, mere human effort to achieve salvation is futile. We do not believe in "autosoterism" (self-salvation). |
|
|
|
« Last Edit: November 05, 2007, 04:49:19 PM by Heorhij »
|
Logged
|
Love never fails.
|
|
|
|
Schultz
|
|
« Reply #8 on: November 05, 2007, 04:48:58 PM » |
|
AFAIK, his teaching was declared a heresy way before the Great Schism of 1054, so no, he cannot be a saint.
the thing with pelagianism is that pelagius himself was cleared of all charges of heresy (afaik), but teachings ascribed to him were declared heretical. the monachos site linked above does a good job of pointing that out. |
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
"Hearing a nun's confession is like being stoned to death with popcorn." --Abp. Fulton Sheen
|
|
|
|
minasoliman
|
|
« Reply #9 on: November 05, 2007, 06:09:08 PM » |
|
Pretty much, if you look at it from a monachos.net point of view, there is no official Eastern position or understanding on Pelagius himself. What is he accused of? He's accused of believing salvation and prevention of sinning only matters on freedom of human will, not necessarily God's grace. I think St. Augustine himself seems to stress God's grace in this regard, although many people today accuse St. Augustine of completely ignoring human free will, leading to Calvinistic ideas. St. John Climacus offers us a nice balance, telling us it requires both free will and God's grace.
Nevertheless, I think Pelagius was condemned on the Council of Ephesus 431 without actually investigating what Pelagianism is exactly. It was only done I suppose out of revered respect for St. Augustine who never got a chance to appear in the council against Nestorianism (St. Augustine has had a spiritual son who repented from Nestorianism by his fatherly help).
God bless.
|
|
|
|
« Last Edit: November 05, 2007, 06:09:20 PM by minasoliman »
|
Logged
|
Vain existence can never exist, for \\\"unless the LORD builds the house, the builders labor in vain.\\\" (Psalm 127)
If the faith is unchanged and rock solid, then the gates of Hades never prevailed in the end.
|
|
|
Didymus
Peace and grace.
Sr. Member
Offline
Faith: Oriental Orthodox
Jurisdiction: HG Coptic Bishop Anba Daniel of Sydney
Posts: 551
St. Thomas Didymus the Apostle of India
|
|
« Reply #10 on: November 06, 2007, 11:30:15 AM » |
|
ignatius, I believe Pelagius taught that man could be saved without the grace of God contrary to Ephesians 2 although I may be wrong on this.
Little about Pelagius is known and all that is comes from the Blessed Augustine's refutation of him as best I recall.
|
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
...because I was not with you when the Lord came aforetime.
...because I am blind and yet I see.
|
|
|
Tzimis
Site Supporter
OC.net guru
Offline
Faith: Greek Orthodox
Jurisdiction: GOA
Posts: 2,360
|
|
« Reply #11 on: November 06, 2007, 01:05:51 PM » |
|
Technically he is wrong. The theotokos counted herself as saved by Christ. Even though she never sinned. What was she saved from? other than bodily death.
|
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
Excellence of character, then, is a state concerned with choice, lying in a mean relative to us, this being determined by reason and in the way in which the man of practical wisdom would determine it. Now it is a mean between two vices, that which depends on excess and that which depends on defect.
|
|
|
|
GabrieltheCelt
|
|
« Reply #12 on: November 06, 2007, 01:11:17 PM » |
|
Quick side question: what does afaik stand for?
|
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
|
|
|
|
Schultz
|
|
« Reply #13 on: November 06, 2007, 01:15:04 PM » |
|
afaik = as far as i know
|
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
"Hearing a nun's confession is like being stoned to death with popcorn." --Abp. Fulton Sheen
|
|
|
Fr. David
The Poster Formerly Known as "Pedro"
Archon
Offline
Faith: Eastern Orthodox
Jurisdiction: OCA, Diocese of the South
Posts: 2,825
|
|
« Reply #14 on: November 06, 2007, 02:59:26 PM » |
|
Technically he is wrong. The theotokos counted herself as saved by Christ. Even though she never sinned. What was she saved from? other than bodily death. She was saved from ancestral mortality. She cooperated with God's ever-present, urm, presence (Grace) and avoided personal sin (most Orthodox would say). W/out God's grace, she wouldn't have had a snowball's chance of doing this. |
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
|
|
|
Tzimis
Site Supporter
OC.net guru
Offline
Faith: Greek Orthodox
Jurisdiction: GOA
Posts: 2,360
|
|
« Reply #15 on: November 06, 2007, 03:14:33 PM » |
|
Same difference. No?
|
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
Excellence of character, then, is a state concerned with choice, lying in a mean relative to us, this being determined by reason and in the way in which the man of practical wisdom would determine it. Now it is a mean between two vices, that which depends on excess and that which depends on defect.
|
|
|
|
GabrieltheCelt
|
|
« Reply #16 on: November 07, 2007, 08:04:41 PM » |
|
afaik = as far as i know
Thank you sir. |
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
|
|
|
|
Ortho_cat
|
 |
« Reply #17 on: November 02, 2010, 07:24:40 AM » |
|
Note the distinction here between Pelagius himself and Pelagianism, because many of the teachings commonly attributed to Pelagianism were denied by him. This seems to be a nuanced issue among certain Orthodox circles today, as some are re-evaluating his teachings in a different light. Please discuss your choice.
|
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
|
|
|
|
Asteriktos
|
|
« Reply #18 on: November 02, 2010, 07:42:11 AM » |
|
Before I can vote... which ideas attributed to him did he possibly not hold to?
|
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
|
|
|
|
Ortho_cat
|
|
« Reply #19 on: November 02, 2010, 08:14:03 AM » |
|
Sorry, on second thought, I think this topic may not be best suited for a poll. Can a mod please close this thread?  |
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Shanghaiski
|
|
« Reply #21 on: November 02, 2010, 10:29:42 AM » |
|
If Pelagius was condemned as a heretic, then he will always be one. I don't believe in rehabilitation. If we rehabilitate him, then we have to dig up all the others and it becomes one big mess.
|
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
O Master Lord our God...who are wondrous in glory; who keeps his covenant and his mercy to them who love him with all their heart; who has given us redemption...through his only-begotten son, Jesus Christ...the life of everyone, the help of those who flee to him, the hope of those who cry to him.
|
|
|
|
Irish Hermit
|
|
« Reply #22 on: November 02, 2010, 10:54:20 AM » |
|
If Pelagius was condemned as a heretic, then he will always be one. I don't believe in rehabilitation. If we rehabilitate him, then we have to dig up all the others and it becomes one big mess.
From the link in message 3 by a ROCA priest: "Few churchmen have been so maligned as Pelagius in the Christian West. For nearly 1,500 years, all that anyone has known of the British monk's theology has come from what his opponents said about him — and when one's opponents are as eminent as Augustine and Jerome, the chance of getting a fair hearing is not great. Consequently, it has been easy to lay all manner of pernicious heresies at Pelagius's doorstep. Only in the last couple of decades have scholars been able to recover and examine Pelagius's works directly. What they have found is that very little of what has historically passed for "Pelagian" heresy was actually taught by him." |
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Jetavan
|
|
« Reply #24 on: November 02, 2010, 03:35:23 PM » |
|
According to this reputable source, Pelagius was a mentor to King Arthur. |
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
If you will, you can become all flame.
Extra caritatem nulla salus.
In order to become whole, take the "I" out of "holiness".
I'm not a witch.
Ἄνω σχῶμεν τὰς καρδίας
"Those who say religion has nothing to do with politics do not know what religion is." -- Mohandas Gandhi
Y dduw bo'r diolch.
|
|
|
FormerReformer
Convertodox of the convertodox
Site Supporter
OC.net guru
Offline
Faith: Eastern Orthodox
Jurisdiction: I'll take (e) for "all of the above"
Posts: 2,204
|
|
« Reply #25 on: November 02, 2010, 03:45:53 PM » |
|
The worst King Arthur movie ever made is a reputable source? Methinks a scantily clad Kiera Knightly has addled your brain.  But, I have it on good authority that he was involved in encouraging a young St Patrick.  |
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
"Funny," said Lancelot, "how the people who can't pray say that prayers are not answered, however much the people who can pray say they are." TH White Oh, no: I've succumbed to Hyperdoxy! |
|
|
|
Papist
|
|
« Reply #26 on: November 02, 2010, 04:34:23 PM » |
|
The worst King Arthur movie ever made is a reputable source? Methinks a scantily clad Kiera Knightly has addled your brain. But, I have it on good authority that he was involved in encouraging a young St Patrick. I agree that it was a bad one, but The Last Legion was even worse. |
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
"The only-begotten Son of God, wanting us to be partakers of his divinity, assumed our human nature so that, having become man, he might make men gods." - St. Thomas Aquinas
|
|
|
|
scamandrius
|
|
« Reply #27 on: November 03, 2010, 12:00:48 AM » |
|
The worst King Arthur movie ever made is a reputable source? Methinks a scantily clad Kiera Knightly has addled your brain. But, I have it on good authority that he was involved in encouraging a young St Patrick. I agree that it was a bad one, but The Last Legion was even worse. No kidding. I showed that to my Latin IV class when we were doing Medieval Latin and reading some of the documents related to Arthur. What was I thinking? |
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
I seek the truth by which no man was ever harmed--Marcus Aurelius Those who do not read history are doomed to get their facts from Hollywood--Anonymous What earthly joy remains untouched by grief?--St. John Damascene http://myorthodoxjourney.blogspot.com/ |
|
|
|
scamandrius
|
|
« Reply #28 on: November 03, 2010, 12:06:10 AM » |
|
From the link in message 3 by a ROCA priest:
"Few churchmen have been so maligned as Pelagius in the Christian West. For nearly 1,500 years, all that anyone has known of the British monk's theology has come from what his opponents said about him — and when one's opponents are as eminent as Augustine and Jerome, the chance of getting a fair hearing is not great. Consequently, it has been easy to lay all manner of pernicious heresies at Pelagius's doorstep. Only in the last couple of decades have scholars been able to recover and examine Pelagius's works directly. What they have found is that very little of what has historically passed for "Pelagian" heresy was actually taught by him."
Then let's apply this standard equally. What we know about Arius and to a lesser extent Nestorius, also come from their opponents. Do you think that Athanasius and Cyril of Alexandria gave a fair hearing to them? Do you think that Athanasius and Cyril carefully weighed the pros and cons and made a decision? No, they vigorously defended the truth, had their opponents excommunicated and defended the Orthodox faith. So if Athanasius and Cyril were vindicated in the treatment of their opponents, why hold Jerome and Augustine to a radically different standard unless, of course, their only fault is that they are from the "evil" West? |
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
I seek the truth by which no man was ever harmed--Marcus Aurelius Those who do not read history are doomed to get their facts from Hollywood--Anonymous What earthly joy remains untouched by grief?--St. John Damascene http://myorthodoxjourney.blogspot.com/ |
|
|
|
Irish Hermit
|
|
« Reply #29 on: November 04, 2010, 01:05:59 AM » |
|
From the link in message 3 by a ROCA priest:
"Few churchmen have been so maligned as Pelagius in the Christian West. For nearly 1,500 years, all that anyone has known of the British monk's theology has come from what his opponents said about him — and when one's opponents are as eminent as Augustine and Jerome, the chance of getting a fair hearing is not great. Consequently, it has been easy to lay all manner of pernicious heresies at Pelagius's doorstep. Only in the last couple of decades have scholars been able to recover and examine Pelagius's works directly. What they have found is that very little of what has historically passed for "Pelagian" heresy was actually taught by him."
Then let's apply this standard equally. What we know about Arius and to a lesser extent Nestorius, also come from their opponents. Do you think that Athanasius and Cyril of Alexandria gave a fair hearing to them? Do you think that Athanasius and Cyril carefully weighed the pros and cons and made a decision? No, they vigorously defended the truth, had their opponents excommunicated and defended the Orthodox faith. So if Athanasius and Cyril were vindicated in the treatment of their opponents, why hold Jerome and Augustine to a radically different standard unless, of course, their only fault is that they are from the "evil" West? I am not sure how to answer you. This appears to be stretching it to an argumentum ad absurdum. Maybe someone else can comment? |
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
|
|
|
|
Jetavan
|
|
« Reply #30 on: November 04, 2010, 12:34:54 PM » |
|
From the link in message 3 by a ROCA priest:
"Few churchmen have been so maligned as Pelagius in the Christian West. For nearly 1,500 years, all that anyone has known of the British monk's theology has come from what his opponents said about him — and when one's opponents are as eminent as Augustine and Jerome, the chance of getting a fair hearing is not great. Consequently, it has been easy to lay all manner of pernicious heresies at Pelagius's doorstep. Only in the last couple of decades have scholars been able to recover and examine Pelagius's works directly. What they have found is that very little of what has historically passed for "Pelagian" heresy was actually taught by him."
Then let's apply this standard equally. What we know about Arius and to a lesser extent Nestorius, also come from their opponents. Do you think that Athanasius and Cyril of Alexandria gave a fair hearing to them? Do you think that Athanasius and Cyril carefully weighed the pros and cons and made a decision? No, they vigorously defended the truth, had their opponents excommunicated and defended the Orthodox faith. So if Athanasius and Cyril were vindicated in the treatment of their opponents, why hold Jerome and Augustine to a radically different standard unless, of course, their only fault is that they are from the "evil" West? Well, if we agree that Augustine held some rather "un-Orthodox" ideas, then we might conclude that it's possible that Augustine's "un-0rthodox" ideas are what led him to condemn Pelagius. |
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
If you will, you can become all flame.
Extra caritatem nulla salus.
In order to become whole, take the "I" out of "holiness".
I'm not a witch.
Ἄνω σχῶμεν τὰς καρδίας
"Those who say religion has nothing to do with politics do not know what religion is." -- Mohandas Gandhi
Y dduw bo'r diolch.
|
|
|
Benjamin the Red
Recovering Calvinist
High Elder
Offline
Faith: Orthodox Catholic
Jurisdiction: Orthodox Church in America, Diocese of Dallas and the South ||| American Carpatho-Russian Orthodox Diocese
Posts: 1,594
Have mercy on me, O God, have mercy on me.
|
|
« Reply #31 on: November 04, 2010, 12:52:54 PM » |
|
Let's remember again that we're distinguishing Pelagius the man from the teachings commonly known as Pelagianism. Pelagianism is condemned heresy, there is no argument. But, did Pelagius really teach all of these things? If Pelagius didn't teach Pelagianism, then was he Orthodox?
We aren't tinkering at all with the dogma of the Church, simply how we should understand this single British monk from long ago, separate from what history has labelled as his "teachings."
|
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
"Hades is not a place, no, but a state of the soul. It begins here on earth. Just so, paradise begins in the soul of a man here in the earthly life. Here we already have contact with the divine..." -St. John, Wonderworker of Shanghai and San Francisco, Homily On the Sunday of Orthodoxy
|
|
|
|
scamandrius
|
|
« Reply #32 on: November 05, 2010, 12:17:52 AM » |
|
I am not sure how to answer you. This appears to be stretching it to an argumentum ad absurdum. Maybe someone else can comment?
You're saying that it is absurd to hold Augustine and Jerome to one standard and Cyril and Athanasius to another when it comes to defending the faith? Seriously, the priest you quoted said that Jerome and Augustine were the sort of people who wouldn't allow for "fair hearings" when it came to Pelagius and his teachings. Since when did heresy ever deserve or merit a "fair hearing." We may question Augustine's and Jerome's own teachings but why should the fact that they were the leaders of condemnation (and the condemnation of Pelagius did follow in the east) against Arius in terms of the theological debate automatically make Pelagius not a heretic or just misunderstood? What is the standard? |
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
I seek the truth by which no man was ever harmed--Marcus Aurelius Those who do not read history are doomed to get their facts from Hollywood--Anonymous What earthly joy remains untouched by grief?--St. John Damascene http://myorthodoxjourney.blogspot.com/ |
|
|
Rufus
Faith, Hope, and Love
Sr. Member
 Online
Faith: Orthodox Catholic Christian
Jurisdiction: GOA
Posts: 899
Iakovos Nafpliotis Protopsaltis
|
|
« Reply #33 on: November 05, 2010, 06:14:08 PM » |
|
I am not sure how to answer you. This appears to be stretching it to an argumentum ad absurdum. Maybe someone else can comment?
You're saying that it is absurd to hold Augustine and Jerome to one standard and Cyril and Athanasius to another when it comes to defending the faith? Seriously, the priest you quoted said that Jerome and Augustine were the sort of people who wouldn't allow for "fair hearings" when it came to Pelagius and his teachings. Since when did heresy ever deserve or merit a "fair hearing." We may question Augustine's and Jerome's own teachings but why should the fact that they were the leaders of condemnation (and the condemnation of Pelagius did follow in the east) against Arius in terms of the theological debate automatically make Pelagius not a heretic or just misunderstood? What is the standard? Don't we have authenticated writings of Arius? Moreover, the Arian heresy was more of a clear-cut matter than the grace-vs-works dichotomy in the West, which is a very subtle matter and subject to interpretation. It is hard enough to tell what exactly Augustine believed, so how are we ever to know what Pelagius was teaching? |
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
O chant unto our God, chant ye; chant unto our King, chant ye.
For God is king of all the earth, O chant ye with understanding.
|
|
|
|
scamandrius
|
|
« Reply #34 on: November 06, 2010, 12:05:46 AM » |
|
^Isn't heresy still heresy? Or are there now grades of heresy?
|
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
I seek the truth by which no man was ever harmed--Marcus Aurelius Those who do not read history are doomed to get their facts from Hollywood--Anonymous What earthly joy remains untouched by grief?--St. John Damascene http://myorthodoxjourney.blogspot.com/ |
|
|
|
Shanghaiski
|
|
« Reply #35 on: November 06, 2010, 12:37:45 AM » |
|
Why not also rehabilitate Origen? We all know his condemnation was done just to crack down on neo-Origenists. (I'm not for this, just being snarky.)
|
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
O Master Lord our God...who are wondrous in glory; who keeps his covenant and his mercy to them who love him with all their heart; who has given us redemption...through his only-begotten son, Jesus Christ...the life of everyone, the help of those who flee to him, the hope of those who cry to him.
|
|
|
|
Asteriktos
|
|
« Reply #36 on: November 06, 2010, 02:52:09 AM » |
|
^Isn't heresy still heresy? Or are there now grades of heresy?
Why not? There are degrees of divine revelation, after all... |
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
|
|
|
Rufus
Faith, Hope, and Love
Sr. Member
Online
Faith: Orthodox Catholic Christian
Jurisdiction: GOA
Posts: 899
Iakovos Nafpliotis Protopsaltis
|
|
« Reply #37 on: November 06, 2010, 02:38:29 PM » |
|
^Isn't heresy still heresy? Or are there now grades of heresy?
If heresy is just heresy, period, then we'd better anathematize St. Gregory of Nyssa, since he believed in apokatastasis. |
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
O chant unto our God, chant ye; chant unto our King, chant ye.
For God is king of all the earth, O chant ye with understanding.
|
|
|
|
Jetavan
|
|
« Reply #38 on: November 06, 2010, 02:50:53 PM » |
|
^Isn't heresy still heresy? Or are there now grades of heresy?
If heresy is just heresy, period, then we'd better anathematize St. Gregory of Nyssa, since he believed in apokatastasis. Apokatastasis means a restoration to a previous condition. I don't think St. Gregory ever taught a restoration to a previous condition. |
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
If you will, you can become all flame.
Extra caritatem nulla salus.
In order to become whole, take the "I" out of "holiness".
I'm not a witch.
Ἄνω σχῶμεν τὰς καρδίας
"Those who say religion has nothing to do with politics do not know what religion is." -- Mohandas Gandhi
Y dduw bo'r diolch.
|
|
|
Rufus
Faith, Hope, and Love
Sr. Member
Online
Faith: Orthodox Catholic Christian
Jurisdiction: GOA
Posts: 899
Iakovos Nafpliotis Protopsaltis
|
|
« Reply #39 on: November 06, 2010, 09:56:43 PM » |
|
^Isn't heresy still heresy? Or are there now grades of heresy?
If heresy is just heresy, period, then we'd better anathematize St. Gregory of Nyssa, since he believed in apokatastasis. Apokatastasis means a restoration to a previous condition. I don't think St. Gregory ever taught a restoration to a previous condition. |
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
O chant unto our God, chant ye; chant unto our King, chant ye.
For God is king of all the earth, O chant ye with understanding.
|
|
|
|
Jetavan
|
|
« Reply #40 on: November 07, 2010, 03:57:56 AM » |
|
^Isn't heresy still heresy? Or are there now grades of heresy?
If heresy is just heresy, period, then we'd better anathematize St. Gregory of Nyssa, since he believed in apokatastasis. Apokatastasis means a restoration to a previous condition. I don't think St. Gregory ever taught a restoration to a previous condition. That's not apokatastasis. That's the eventual discontinuation of the sufferings of Gehenna. |
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
If you will, you can become all flame.
Extra caritatem nulla salus.
In order to become whole, take the "I" out of "holiness".
I'm not a witch.
Ἄνω σχῶμεν τὰς καρδίας
"Those who say religion has nothing to do with politics do not know what religion is." -- Mohandas Gandhi
Y dduw bo'r diolch.
|
|
|
Rufus
Faith, Hope, and Love
Sr. Member
Online
Faith: Orthodox Catholic Christian
Jurisdiction: GOA
Posts: 899
Iakovos Nafpliotis Protopsaltis
|
|
« Reply #41 on: November 07, 2010, 08:16:45 PM » |
|
^Isn't heresy still heresy? Or are there now grades of heresy?
If heresy is just heresy, period, then we'd better anathematize St. Gregory of Nyssa, since he believed in apokatastasis. Apokatastasis means a restoration to a previous condition. I don't think St. Gregory ever taught a restoration to a previous condition. That's not apokatastasis. That's the eventual discontinuation of the sufferings of Gehenna. So if it's not apokatastasis, then why is it called apokatastasis? And what difference does it make if I have still shown that St. Gregory believed in something that the Chruch in general has rejected? |
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
O chant unto our God, chant ye; chant unto our King, chant ye.
For God is king of all the earth, O chant ye with understanding.
|
|
|
|
Aindriú
|
|
« Reply #42 on: February 16, 2011, 08:04:44 PM » |
|
http://ancientfaith.com/podcasts/highdesert/sin_and_grace_east_and_westI was listening to this Podcast, and Fr. Gabriel says around 14:20 that Pelagius didn't teach what he was condemned of and basically was probably more correct than we give credit for. It bothered me. For both seeming to claim Pelagius was right and also that the Church was wrong (1500 years after the fact).
|
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
 I'm going to need this. |
|
|
deusveritasest
Toumarches
Offline
Faith: None
Jurisdiction: None
Posts: 7,528
|
|
« Reply #43 on: February 16, 2011, 08:19:48 PM » |
|
I think you might be overestimating the place of the person of Pelagius in the Tradition of the Church. On the highest and most significant levels that this matter was addressed, teachings attributed to Pelagius were condemned, but through the persons of some of his disciples, such as Rufinus and Celestius. I don't think that there is a really strong condemnation of the person of Pelagius himself, sort of like Origen.
|
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
I stopped posting here in August 2011 because of stark disagreement with the policies of the administration and moderating team of the forums. If you desire, feel free to PM me, message me on Facebook (link in profile), or email me: cddombrowski@yahoo.com |
|
|
|
Melodist
|
|
« Reply #44 on: February 16, 2011, 09:28:42 PM » |
|
http://ancientfaith.com/podcasts/highdesert/sin_and_grace_east_and_westI was listening to this Podcast, and Fr. Gabriel says around 14:20 that Pelagius didn't teach what he was condemned of and basically was probably more correct than we give credit for. It bothered me. For both seeming to claim Pelagius was right and also that the Church was wrong (1500 years after the fact). He did say "As far as I'm concerned". Pelagius letter to DemtriasThere are a handful of questionable statements like "The advantage of being a Christian is that through the teaching of Jesus Christ we learn more fully the nature of goodness; and through his example, we are inspired to choose good." "Thus the story of their banishment from Eden is in truth the story of how the human race gained its freedom:" "Through him we are reborn as new men and women, because we can see clearly how we should live." |
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
|
|
|
|
Poll
