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Author Topic: society is run by the devil so quickly get out of there!  (Read 8431 times) Average Rating: 0
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ozgeorge
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« Reply #45 on: November 03, 2007, 11:11:55 PM »

No! It says "WILL BE" driven out. Did you purposely change that Scripture passage? Your view is obviously false also in light of the other two passages that say satan is "the god of THIS age" and "the prince of this world."
Do you read Koine? What does "νυν" mean?
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« Reply #46 on: November 03, 2007, 11:16:16 PM »

1 Corinthians 4:4 says:
"For I know nothing by myself....."
Would that you had heeded this.... Cheesy

I meant 2 Cor 4:4. [I made the edit on my post.] To stoop to your level for a moment, actually 1 Cor 4:4 says: "My conscience is clear, but that does not make me innocent. It is the Lord who judges me." So if you are going to continue these cheapshot comments against me please at least make them accurate.
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« Reply #47 on: November 03, 2007, 11:19:39 PM »

I will not speak with you much longer, for the prince of this world is coming. He has no hold on me.  John 14:30  

and in regard to judgment, because the prince of this world now stands condemned.  John 16:11

At that time, Jesus called the twelve together and gave them power and authority over all demons and to cure diseases, and he sent them out to preach the kingdom of God and to heal.  Luke 9:1...
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« Reply #48 on: November 03, 2007, 11:24:05 PM »

I meant 2 Cor 4:4. [I made the edit on my post.] To stoop to your level for a moment, actually 1 Cor 4:4 says: "My conscience is clear, but that does not make me innocent. It is the Lord who judges me." So if you are going to continue these cheapshot comments against me please at least make them accurate.
And you consider these translations of the original "accurate"?
To illustrate this, and the reason for your misunderstanding, here is John 16:33:
"εν τω κοσμω θλιψιν εχετε αλλα θαρσειτε εγω νενικηκα τον κοσμον"
Which translates as:"
In the world ye shall have tribulation: but be of good cheer; I have conquered the world."
Note: He doesn't say "I will conquer", but "I have conquered."
Are you making Christ out to be a liar? Has He in fact not yet conquered the world?
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« Reply #49 on: November 03, 2007, 11:24:43 PM »

PoS, would you be so good as to tell us which translation of the Scriptures you are using please?  I ask for reference sake.  Thank you in advance.

Ebor
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« Reply #50 on: November 03, 2007, 11:26:47 PM »

Do you read Koine? What does "νυν" mean?

I dont read Greek. But in the last 5 minutes I consulted about 10 different Bible translations and every one of them said "WILL BE" and not "IS". Look for yourself. I dont know, possibly the manuscripts differ on this passage, and you are reading what most scholars dont accept as the more accurate version. This variance in manuscripts happens quite often. But, again, I dont know. I just trust that what I read from every bible I consult is more genuine than what you put forward.

Anyways, you must confront the other two passages, that certainly confirm what my bibles say.
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« Reply #51 on: November 03, 2007, 11:30:08 PM »

Anyways, you must confront the other two passages, that certainly confirm what my bibles say.
And you must confront what Christ said. I repeat:
here is John 16:33:"εν τω κοσμω θλιψιν εχετε αλλα θαρσειτε εγω νενικηκα τον κοσμον"
Which translates as:"In the world ye shall have tribulation: but be of good cheer; I have conquered the world."
Note: He doesn't say "I will conquer", but "I have conquered."
Are you making Christ out to be a liar? Has He in fact not yet conquered the world?

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« Reply #52 on: November 03, 2007, 11:33:37 PM »

I will not speak with you much longer, for the prince of this world is coming. He has no hold on me.  John 14:30  

and in regard to judgment, because the prince of this world now stands condemned.  John 16:11

At that time, Jesus called the twelve together and gave them power and authority over all demons and to cure diseases, and he sent them out to preach the kingdom of God and to heal.  Luke 9:1...

Correct. The prince of this world has no hold on Jesus. Jesus is the conquerer, who has conquered the force of sin for those who accept him as Messiah, and who will eventually conquer the entire kingdom of satan. And the prince of this world always stands condemned. And Jesus and his Saints certainly have authority over the demons in the sense that they can command them to leave possessed individuals by the invokation of the Holy Name.

So anyways I take it that you now admit that Satan is the "prince of this world"??
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« Reply #53 on: November 03, 2007, 11:34:04 PM »


I WAS NOT GOING TO BRING OUT THE PAPER AND INK BUT YOU HAVE PUSHED THE LIMIT.


And I would ask you WHY you were not going to 'bring out the paper and ink' which I take to mean that you were not going to actually give references and documentation to your assertions and opinions.  How is it that you did not think it necessary to give such information?  Why *should* your unsupported word be accepted?  Can you think about that and give any reason why you have authority to insist that your view is the Right One?  The Bereans did not just swallow someone's say-so even though it was St. Paul and Silas, but "searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so." That you were not going to give any information for others to reference and check would seem to suggest that you think that your view should be above that of St. Paul.

Why were you unwilling to give references?  

Ebor
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« Reply #54 on: November 03, 2007, 11:34:35 PM »

I dont read Greek. But in the last 5 minutes I consulted about 10 different Bible translations and every one of them said "WILL BE" and not "IS". Look for yourself. I dont know, possibly the manuscripts differ on this passage, and you are reading what most scholars dont accept as the more accurate version. This variance in manuscripts happens quite often. But, again, I dont know. I just trust that what I read from every bible I consult is more genuine than what you put forward.

Anyways, you must confront the other two passages, that certainly confirm what my bibles say.
While you state that you trust your translation of the Bible more than what we put forward, why should we not trust our sources more than we do what you put forward?  Why do you insist that we trust you more than we do the Holy Tradition of our faith when you won't trust us, calling spurious our interpretation of the Scriptures?  Don't you see the double standard you advocate?
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« Reply #55 on: November 03, 2007, 11:35:59 PM »

who will eventually conquer the entire kingdom of satan
So you think Christ is a liar in John 16:33?
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« Reply #56 on: November 03, 2007, 11:36:49 PM »

No! It says "WILL BE" driven out. Did you purposely change that Scripture passage? Your view is obviously false also in light of the other two passages that say satan is "the god of THIS age" and "the prince of this world."

Well, the versions I pulled up do use the future tense here; but they also show this passage in context, which you are abusing. For a larger context is:

Quote
Father, glorify your name." Then a voice came from heaven, "I have glorified it, and I will glorify it again." The crowd standing there heard it and said that it was thunder. Others said, "An angel has spoken to him." Jesus answered, "This voice has come for your sake, not for mine. Now is the judgment of this world; now the ruler of this world will be driven out. And I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all people to myself." He said this to indicate the kind of death he was to die.

So it would seem that the future in which this ruler will be driven out has already happened. Or maybe not, but frankly (as are the others) I am not convicted of your fitness to interpret scripture for me.
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« Reply #57 on: November 03, 2007, 11:38:44 PM »

And you must confront what Christ said. I repeat:

Maybe you didnt read what I poster earlier. Please read:

Jesus conquered in the Paschal mystery in the sense of making the perfect act of obedience to the Father in behalf of those who will accept him as Lord, and furthermore in that the Cosmos has been granted to him to subdue, but the battle against the kingdom of satan [apostate society] must still be fought in order to gain the actual reign over satan's dominion.

Jesus has conquered. He has conquered only for believers though. The Church is the only Kingdom of God on earth. Do you suggest that Jesus is actually the king of the kingdom of Satan? That is sheer blasphemy!
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« Reply #58 on: November 03, 2007, 11:44:20 PM »

My understanding is that Satan and his minions still have influence in this world, but they have been significantly incapacitated with respect to their power over our souls. In the Thanksgiving Prayer of the Coptic Hourly Prayers, we thank Christ who has "given us the authority to trample on serpents and scorpions, and over all the power of the enemy." Apa Shenoute of Atripe depicts the achievement of Christ and hence the situation at present, in rather vivid imagery:

For like a righteous king who has cast down his enemy in battle and made him weak, and who has said that all those who are on his side should lay their hands upon him [the enemy] because he wants them all to be glorified together, and who later will return and cut off the enemy's head--just so, and even more, when the Lord Christ came, he destroyed the devil like a tyrant whose legs were cut off up to his thighs and his arms up to his shoulders; and as for the other members of his body, his heart and his spine, he [Christ] struck them all. He [the devil] is unable to move [any of his members] so as to get up or pursue a person, except for his breath alone, which comes and goes, that is, his thoughts, which Christ left in him because he wants his children, his soldiers, his servants, and all who are on his side to lay their hands upon him [the devil], that is, to fight against his goldess thoughts [logismoi], so that they might be glorified with him and reign with him.
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« Reply #59 on: November 03, 2007, 11:45:02 PM »

Jesus conquered in the Paschal mystery in the sense of making the perfect act of obedience to the Father in behalf of those who will accept him as Lord, and furthermore in that the Cosmos has been granted to him to subdue, but the battle against the kingdom of satan [apostate society] must still be fought in order to gain the actual reign over satan's dominion.
I see. So you think the Death and Resurrection of Christ was only a partial victory (in fact, no victory at all), since He in fact has not destroyed death and conquered satan, but will do so at some future date.....
<sigh>
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« Reply #60 on: November 03, 2007, 11:45:52 PM »

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« Reply #61 on: November 03, 2007, 11:47:35 PM »

Maybe you didnt read what I poster earlier. Please read:

Jesus conquered in the Paschal mystery in the sense of making the perfect act of obedience to the Father in behalf of those who will accept him as Lord, and furthermore in that the Cosmos has been granted to him to subdue, but the battle against the kingdom of satan [apostate society] must still be fought in order to gain the actual reign over satan's dominion.

Jesus has conquered. He has conquered only for believers though. The Church is the only Kingdom of God on earth. Do you suggest that Jesus is actually the king of the kingdom of Satan? That is sheer blasphemy!
Oh, I'm sure, knowing ozgeorge, that he's read what you asked him to read.  Why should we accept it as Gospel truth?  Has any of our Fathers among the Saints spoken this?  (If you're going to answer the previous rhetorical question, then PLEASE name specific Fathers who preached what you preach--enough of your vague statements of "the Church has always taught".)  Or are you equal to the Holy Fathers in your own eyes?

You have yet to give us any reason why we should regard you as credible.  Ebor has questioned you on this.  I have questioned you on this.  Keble has called you to account for your refusal to cite your sources.  Until you can reference sources outside of yourself--no, the Bible doesn't count, since your interpretation of said Scriptures is part of the message we're calling into question--what minuscule credibility you had with us (if you ever had any) only continues to dissolve into nothingness.
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« Reply #62 on: November 03, 2007, 11:50:53 PM »

My understanding is that Satan and his minions still have influence in this world, but they have been significantly incapacitated with respect to their power over our souls. In the Thanksgiving Prayer of the Coptic Hourly Prayers, we thank Christ who has "given us the authority to trample on serpents and scorpions, and over all the power of the enemy." Apa Shenoute of Atripe depicts the achievement of Christ and hence the situation at present, in rather vivid imagery:

For like a righteous king who has cast down his enemy in battle and made him weak, and who has said that all those who are on his side should lay their hands upon him [the enemy] because he wants them all to be glorified together, and who later will return and cut off the enemy's head--just so, and even more, when the Lord Christ came, he destroyed the devil like a tyrant whose legs were cut off up to his thighs and his arms up to his shoulders; and as for the other members of his body, his heart and his spine, he [Christ] struck them all. He [the devil] is unable to move [any of his members] so as to get up or pursue a person, except for his breath alone, which comes and goes, that is, his thoughts, which Christ left in him because he wants his children, his soldiers, his servants, and all who are on his side to lay their hands upon him [the devil], that is, to fight against his goldess thoughts [logismoi], so that they might be glorified with him and reign with him.

That's right. There is some mopping up to do after the battle, but the battle itself has been fought and won (past tense) by Christ.
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« Reply #63 on: November 03, 2007, 11:55:20 PM »

I see. So you think the Death and Resurrection of Christ was only a partial victory (in fact, no victory at all), since He in fact has not destroyed death and conquered satan, but will do so at some future date.....
<sigh>

No, you think Christ only acheived partial victory, because society is an incredibly evil place that does not even acknowledge Jesus Christ. You make my Lord the king over the kingdom of Satan. This is total blasphemy!

Actually, Jesus has gained complete victory specifically and very specifically only for the Church [his Kingdom on earth] because that is all he intended to gain victory for right now, and [as 1 Cor 15 tell us] the final reign over everything will not begin until after the Last Day.
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« Reply #64 on: November 03, 2007, 11:57:23 PM »

That's right. There is some mopping up to do after the battle, but the battle itself has been fought and won (past tense) by Christ.

LOL, what do you think the book of Revelations is all about?? This is just hilarious. There are many many many battles to be fought. I feel that its a waste of time even responding to you.
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« Reply #65 on: November 03, 2007, 11:58:18 PM »

AND PLEASE, he who has ears let him hear -

One of the biggest tricks of the enemy is to say that the saint-to-be has too many obligations in society in order to leave it to become a solitary walker. This is especially true in regards worldly relationships. By worldly I mean blood lineage [parents, siblings, children] or romantic [dating partner or spouse] type of relationships. The Lord Jesus, in instituting his way of Holy Hesychasm, said over and over again to leave all these relationships behind in order to follow him. He made no mistake about it! He even named all the very types of relations that I named. He said to get away and walk with him alone.

Though it is possible to get to heaven while attached to these relationships, if you do not leave them behind you will not attain to the higher degrees of glory, and will live in sorrow for not choosing the way that will truly make you happy. Follow the Way of Jesus the Just. Go for it now! What else did he say? He said to not even wait! For the kingdom will pass you by. And who knows what will happen to you on the morrow. You might find satisfaction in your worldly relations. What then? Then it will be too late. Go my friend.

I was reading back in the thread and looked at this post again.  So you say that one should "go for it now" and abandon ones children?   Huh  Or other people who are dependent on others for care and wellbeing?  Undecided  So one should only think of oneself and not of those weaker or unable to care for themselves....  What kind of "salvation" is that which is built on cruelty and lack of charity so that it could lead to others turning from God?  

 "And whosoever shall offend one of these little ones that believe in me, it is better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and he were cast into the sea."

Says Our Lord in the Gospel of Mark ch 9 vs 42

 Sad

Ebor

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« Reply #66 on: November 04, 2007, 12:02:01 AM »

No, you think Christ only acheived partial victory, because society is an incredibly evil place that does not even acknowledge Jesus Christ. You make my Lord the king over the kingdom of Satan. This is total blasphemy!
Think about it. Who is being blasphemous? Is it I who say that God Rules over all and is Present everywhere, or is it you who say that God does not rule over part of Creation, and is in a dualistic battle with another being He is yet to conquer?
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« Reply #67 on: November 04, 2007, 12:06:42 AM »

One of the biggest tricks of the enemy is to say that the saint-to-be has too many obligations in society in order to leave it to become a solitary walker. This is especially true in regards worldly relationships. By worldly I mean blood lineage [parents, siblings, children] or romantic [dating partner or spouse] type of relationships.

Which is to say, you think we should all be celibate? It's a little late for that, for me. I'm guessing that you are a young man with no attachments yet.

Oh, and from where do you know the history of this forum?
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« Reply #68 on: November 04, 2007, 12:13:12 AM »

Pathofsolitude again I will ask how long have you been affiliated with the Orthodox tradition? and where did you gain your ideas on scripture and tradition from an Orthodox theologian? your preist? your bishop? or from yourself? please pray for an ignorant sinner like me and again pathof solitude I am sorry if I have offended or angered you as this was not my purpose and only call out to you in the love of Christ.
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« Reply #69 on: November 04, 2007, 12:33:44 AM »

LOL, what do you think the book of Revelations is all about?? This is just hilarious. There are many many many battles to be fought. I feel that its a waste of time even responding to you.
pathofsolitude,

How is what you're doing not a waste of our time?  You start a thread to spread your alarmist "THE SKY IS FALLING!  RUN FOR YOUR LIVES!" message.  You continue to preach a spurious interpretation of the Scriptures and accuse others of blasphemy for asserting the Orthodox understanding of these Scriptures and showing how your interpretation contradicts this Tradition that we have received from the Church.  You have quite a few posters (including Ebor, Keble, prodromas, and myself) here asking you to cite your sources and your background so we can read them and know them for ourselves.  You have been so active posting on this thread the past hour or so that I know you've had plenty of opportunity to address the concerns of these posters, so your silence on this matter looks very much like deliberate avoidance of the inquiry.

Because the matter of your credibility is so critical to this thread, I charge you as this board's Moderator to answer those who have questioned your sources.  To encourage you to calm down from this discussion and seek the sources we've requested, I'm going to lock this thread for three days until next Wednesday, November 7.  Please be prepared at that time to present your sources and argue why we should deem you authoritative.  This will require that you do a little research on the Fathers so we can be confident that the interpretation of the Scriptures you present is indeed a Patristic interpretation.  If you cannot do this, then I will see little option but to close this thread permanently. 

Please do not circumvent the lock on this thread by starting another parallel thread to continue to advocate your message.


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« Reply #70 on: November 07, 2007, 10:50:31 PM »

Okay, pathofsolitude, the thread's open to give you the chance to present your credentials to us.  Let's see what you have to offer us.
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« Reply #71 on: November 08, 2007, 10:05:33 AM »

To answer the original posters question. No society isn't run by the devil. Society is run by people who continue to rebel against gods will. His victory is complete. It's the people that refuse to except it.
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Excellence of character, then, is a state concerned with choice, lying in a mean relative to us, this being determined by reason and in the way in which the man of practical wisdom would determine it. Now it is a mean between two vices, that which depends on excess and that which depends on defect.
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« Reply #72 on: November 09, 2007, 12:15:08 AM »

To answer the original posters question. No society isn't run by the devil. Society is run by people who continue to rebel against gods will. His victory is complete. It's the people that refuse to except it.
Actually, the OP wasn't a question seeking an answer.
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« Reply #73 on: November 09, 2007, 08:51:13 AM »

No, it was more like issuing a 'fiat' that was supposed to be accepted without question or discussion.
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And if similar instances apply it is unlikely that the OP will give any support or sources or take any questions seriously. The opinions are supposed to be simply swallowed by others and istm the people who do this are unprepared or unable to really consider other sides or questions or give real basis for their personal ideas.

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« Reply #74 on: November 09, 2007, 12:05:26 PM »

Well...

I really dont know how ya'll expect me to answer the questions of every post. Anyways, if I were to hold ya'll by your own standards, how come I havent seen any patristic sources cited to support your belief that Jesus is king over the kingdom of satan? The reason why I didnt give quotes [not even from the apostolic memoirs] to begin with was that I take it as selfevident that the above stated belief is utter blasphemy. I have the Spirit of God in me. I know that Jesus is not king over the kingdom of satan. I dont even need paper and ink to "confirm" that I am right on this. Please dont receive what I am saying because *I* am saying it but because it is the truth. If the truth is in you then you will receive it. This is precisely the epistemology of the apostles. Do you think they ran around with pieces of paper in their hands trying to get people to believe in the newly revealed truths of the New Covenant? No. Its by the Spirit.

However, I was finally forced to quote these passages from the apostolic memoirs in response to the troubled guy who accused me of Mormonism:

Quote

JOHN 12:31 "Now is the time for judgment on this world; now the prince of this world will be driven out."

JOHN 16:11 "in regard to judgment, because the prince of this world now stands condemned."

2 CORINTHIANS 4:4 "The god of this age has blinded the minds of unbelievers"

EPHESIANS 2:2 "...the ways of this world and of the ruler of the kingdom of the air, the spirit who is now at work in those who are disobedient
."



There are probably many more passages that say the same thing. Now I want to know what you people think on this- is St Paul a Gnostic or a Mormon or something because he says that Satan is the "GOD" of this age? Even I didnt say that in my posts. But of course you will say, as PeterAleut already said, that scripture doesnt count in our discussion. [As if St Paul were not as clear as clear could possibly be!] Very well then. I guess you will have to indefinitely close the thread.

In regards to patristics-
[bgcolor=#fff500]READ THE DESERT FATHERS [/bgcolor]
Pretty much everything I have to say is found in their writings. They are my inspiration. And they were much more spiritual than the bishops of the Empire who were actually functioning as politicians and servants of the Emperor. If anyone knows what society is all about its the Fathers of the desert.
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« Reply #75 on: November 09, 2007, 01:42:54 PM »

 The kingdom of God exists in this time and place. It will be fully recognized only when Christ comes. This is because we haven't seen Gods punishment yet. Keep in mind that he is already a victor. He has defeated death witch is the last enemy. I'll give you an example. Lets say there are two countries at war. One country developed a nuclear war head and has there finger on the botton. Who is the victor? Weather that bomb goes off or not, the battle is over.
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Excellence of character, then, is a state concerned with choice, lying in a mean relative to us, this being determined by reason and in the way in which the man of practical wisdom would determine it. Now it is a mean between two vices, that which depends on excess and that which depends on defect.
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« Reply #76 on: November 09, 2007, 02:19:17 PM »

I agree with Demetrios G. Christ has already overcome the world (John 16:33), so, if you are with Him and in Him, you don't have to flee anywhere. On the other hand, if you are not, then going to the desert or to some uninhabited island in the middle of the ocean will hardly help. Again, please read Fr. Schmemann's wonderful lecture titled "Between Utopia and Escape." He said it all there. --G.
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« Reply #77 on: November 09, 2007, 02:45:22 PM »

He has defeated death witch is the last enemy. I'll give you an example. Lets say there are two countries at war. One country developed a nuclear war head and has there finger on the botton. Who is the victor? Weather that bomb goes off or not, the battle is over.

See 1 Cor 15:24-26- "Then the end will come, when he hands over the kingdom to God the Father after he has destroyed all dominion, authority and power. For he must reign until he has put all his enemies under his feet. The last enemy to be destroyed is death."

I understand what you are saying though. I do believe that Christ has already conquered death *in a sense*. Thats a good example you gave as to "how" he is already victor. But I disagree that the battle is over. If you really think the battle is over then you might as well give up asceticism and just sit around and eat ice cream. The Book of Revelation is about all the battles that have yet to be fought.
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The great apostasy has occured. Get out of there while you can!!! Its better to be priestless than to have a heretic bishop. The apostles taught that the church consists of saints only. There are about 7,000 Spirit-bearers currently in the catacombs.
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« Reply #78 on: November 09, 2007, 02:48:19 PM »

HERE IS ANOTHER BIBLE PASSAGE:

1 JOHN 5:19
"the whole world is under the control of the evil one."

How about that one fellas? It doesnt get any more clear than that.
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The great apostasy has occured. Get out of there while you can!!! Its better to be priestless than to have a heretic bishop. The apostles taught that the church consists of saints only. There are about 7,000 Spirit-bearers currently in the catacombs.
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« Reply #79 on: November 09, 2007, 02:50:07 PM »

I guess you really DO want to lock your own thread. Strange.  laugh
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« Reply #80 on: November 09, 2007, 03:10:48 PM »

See 1 Cor 15:24-26- "Then the end will come, when he hands over the kingdom to God the Father after he has destroyed all dominion, authority and power. For he must reign until he has put all his enemies under his feet. The last enemy to be destroyed is death."

I understand what you are saying though. I do believe that Christ has already conquered death *in a sense*. Thats a good example you gave as to "how" he is already victor. But I disagree that the battle is over. If you really think the battle is over then you might as well give up asceticism and just sit around and eat ice cream. The Book of Revelation is about all the battles that have yet to be fought.

When you start to read revelation your mind can easily wander from the truth. Revelation is an explanation of the recapitulation of the world into gods hands. Much of what is in revelation has already happened and some hasn't happened yet. I give you an example. The destruction of the 7 Churches of Asia Minor, The destruction of the Jewish temple in 70 ad. The fall of the evil one from grace. And countless more. It is the history of creation in a whole. it's not all prophesy. To make it more confusing it's not even told in a liner pattern. It jumps back and forth. It does contain the shock affect though, in that it brings people into the Church.  laugh
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Excellence of character, then, is a state concerned with choice, lying in a mean relative to us, this being determined by reason and in the way in which the man of practical wisdom would determine it. Now it is a mean between two vices, that which depends on excess and that which depends on defect.
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« Reply #81 on: November 09, 2007, 03:56:53 PM »

See 1 Cor 15:24-26- "Then the end will come, when he hands over the kingdom to God the Father after he has destroyed all dominion, authority and power. For he must reign until he has put all his enemies under his feet. The last enemy to be destroyed is death." 

And what about the Baptismal Service?  "The death He died He died to sin, once and for all."  Part of the theology of immersion is that we participate in the death of Christ - the once and final conquering of death.  Now, when we don't "die", but rather sleep in the Lord, since death has no power - only Christ, who will raise us up for judgment and a New Life.  Don't proof text - throwing out quotes out of context doesn't help a lot.

Society is run by people, not by the devil; Christ beckons people, and the devil beckons people.    Many follow Satan's advice instead of Christ's.  "Worldliness," etc. - i.e. the idea that this present life is all that we have to "live for," is what is constantly condemned.  But "society" is not condemned - that's just ridiculous.  A society is a collection of human beings living together; within society exist trends, status, etc. - things that are bad and good depending on their goals and results.

HERE IS ANOTHER BIBLE PASSAGE:

1 JOHN 5:19
"the whole world is under the control of the evil one."

How about that one fellas? It doesnt get any more clear than that.

Again, proof texting doesn't get you anywhere.  In your usage, you're saying that there is nothing that isn't controlled by El Evil One - since the Church is "in the world, but not of the world," you're saying that the Church is still controlled by the Evil One. 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Society

A society is a grouping of individuals which is characterized by common interests and may have distinctive culture and institutions. Members of a society may be from different ethnic groups. A society may be a particular people, such as the Nuer, a nation state, such as Switzerland, or a broader cultural group, such as Western society. An extended social group having a distinctive cultural and economic organization.
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« Reply #82 on: November 09, 2007, 04:12:55 PM »

Well...

I really dont know how ya'll expect me to answer the questions of every post.

Quote and break a post up to address different points. Then again, several people were asking the same questions which you did not answer.  

Quote
Anyways, if I were to hold ya'll by your own standards, how come I havent seen any patristic sources cited to support your belief that Jesus is king over the kingdom of satan?

Well, you are quite free to ask of others to provide sources.  I gave some passages and references to the Gospels in reference to my points.

Quote
The reason why I didnt give quotes [not even from the apostolic memoirs] to begin with was that I take it as selfevident that the above stated belief is utter blasphemy. I have the Spirit of God in me.

It is self-evident to *you* because it is your opinion and developed in your mind.  It is not self-evident to others, and your name-calling, taking scripture passages out of context, and discounting of other people are not the way to convince them that you have some corner on The Truth.

You "have the Spirit of God"?  How do you know this?  How did it come about?  You are making a claim here and seem to think that your words, printed on other people's CRTs are to be accepted without question, that your posting is superior. Why would the Spirit be abusive or rude or discount other people's questions and ideas please?

Quote
I know that Jesus is not king over the kingdom of satan. I dont even need paper and ink to "confirm" that I am right on this. Please dont receive what I am saying because *I* am saying it but because it is the truth. If the truth is in you then you will receive it.

But by this writing you *are* saying 'accept this because I say so' because you are saying on your own that you have the truth.  But none of us here, I suspect, know you. You are "words on a screen" for all intents and purposes and I mean no offense by writing this. In addition, you are saying to others here that if we don't agree with *you* then we don't 'have the truth" in us.  


Quote
This is precisely the epistemology of the apostles. Do you think they ran around with pieces of paper in their hands trying to get people to believe in the newly revealed truths of the New Covenant? No. Its by the Spirit.

Ummm, there are many places where 'pieces of paper', where 'ink and paper' *were* used.  It was called the Scriptures, the books of the Old Testament.  The Bereans 'searched the scriptures' to find out if what they were told was really true.  The references to various prophecies in the OT that applied to Jesus are from 'ink and paper'.  The Ethiopian Eunuch in Acts 8 was reading the scriptures and Philip explained to him what it meant in reference to Jesus.

Also, the apostles were dealing with people in person, answering their questions, listening to them.  They were not anonymous words on a screen casting disdain on others whom the writer does not know.

Ebor
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« Reply #83 on: November 09, 2007, 06:20:28 PM »

pathofsolitude,

You were asked to present to us why we should deem you authoritative by citing authorities outside yourself; you chose instead to question our authority to criticize your message, essentially telling us that your authority is self-evident.  You just don't get it, do you?  You're new to OC.net.  You have clearly taken the offensive in preaching your message and in attacking our pov as heretical and blasphemous.  Therefore, the onus is not on us to prove the Patristic soundness of our defense--we have the option to just not respond to your rant if we don't want to, and we probably shouldn't have.  Since you have taken the initiative to preach to us, the burden is on you to prove the soundness of your position, which you have chosen not to do.  (As far as your claim to have the Holy Spirit, that is for us to discern and recognize, not for you to proclaim as defense of your doctrine.  The arrogance by which you proclaim your possession of the Holy Spirit is actually a good indication that you probably don't.)

Since you have chosen to not present your credentials and to continue to assert your own "self-evident authority" to preach, and this after you had more than three days to prepare your defense, I have little choice but to lock this thread permanently to keep you from wasting our time anymore than you have.  Seeing that your behavior on another board has already drawn a formal warning, if you circumvent the lock on this thread by starting another to continue to preach your views in the Faith Issues section, you will be placed on immediate Post Moderation.


Your servant in Christ,
- PeterTheAleut
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