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Author Topic: Messianic Jews?  (Read 25600 times) Average Rating: 0
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Seraphim Reeves
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« Reply #45 on: September 27, 2003, 04:17:17 PM »

These messianic judaists vindicate the prudence of the Holy Fathers, who not only rejected the dogmatic dimension of Judaizing, but also (from a very early time - probably in the time of the Holy Apostles themselves if the witness of the Apostolic Fathers means anything) began censoring even the sentimental/secondary attachment to "judaic" rituals or customs, even if they allegedly were not being performed in a sectarian/heretical manner (with the attitude they were essential to salvation, or were anything other than cultural relics.)

The fact, is there is not a single Judaic feast, or ritual, which has not had it's emblematic significance fulfilled by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.  Not only this, but there is not a single such rite or feast which has not be superceeded by an infinitely clearer/superior feast or rite...

- the circumcision which is according to the flesh, replaced by the circumcision of the soul consumated in Holy Baptism

- the endless MANY sacrifices of heffers and goats offered at the ONE Jerusalem Temple, superceeded by the ONE sacrifice of Golgotha, renewed at the MANY Orthodox Altars present wherever the faithful gather...

- The Passover from physical slavery superceeded by the Passover from death and spiritual slavery

- The Pentecost of the giving of the Law written on stone, superceeded by the Pentecost of the descent of the Holy Spirit Who writes the Law on men's hearts

etc., etc.

At best, Judaizing externally is redundent and sentimental - at worst, it is a back door for sectarianism and pride.

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« Reply #46 on: September 27, 2003, 07:13:27 PM »

Seraphim Reeves,

That was a good post.  Smiley
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« Reply #47 on: September 28, 2003, 08:54:43 AM »


At best, Judaizing externally is redundent and sentimental - at worst, it is a back door for sectarianism and pride.


Look, I refuse to raise myself up as an expert on messianic Jews. They do strike me as, well, a bit wierd.

But this post doesn't seem to be about them. It seems to be about being smug in having found The Right Way and congratulating oneself about having done so.
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« Reply #48 on: September 28, 2003, 12:12:05 PM »

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But this post doesn't seem to be about them. It seems to be about being smug in having found The Right Way and congratulating oneself about having done so.

To quote one of my younger cousins: "whatever..."

Seraphim
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« Reply #49 on: September 28, 2003, 10:48:55 PM »


At best, Judaizing externally is redundent and sentimental - at worst, it is a back door for sectarianism and pride.


Look, I refuse to raise myself up as an expert on messianic Jews. They do strike me as, well, a bit wierd.

But this post doesn't seem to be about them. It seems to be about being smug in having found The Right Way and congratulating oneself about having done so.


I don't see Seraphim's post that way at all. I thought it was pretty thoughtful and also very accurate.

I am not an expert on the Messianic Jews either. I suspect they have been more than a little influenced by Ellen G. White and Seventh Day Adventism, but it is difficult to pin them down because they don't seem to be unfiied but rather a collection of sects.

One of the weirdest things I have seen any of them write is the claim that our Lord Jesus is the "incarnate Torah."
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« Reply #50 on: April 01, 2010, 08:46:34 PM »

I know this is an old thread, ...
Old, but informative.
 
... but if anyone is interested in finding out something about what Messianic Jews believe, he should check out this thread on another site.

It's an eye-opener!
This whole thread is an eye-opener!  Unfortunately, people will believe anything and everything.
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« Reply #51 on: April 01, 2010, 09:24:34 PM »

My mother-in-law just told me today that her "Campbellite" Christian Church is having a traditional Passover Seder at her church on Good Friday, being orchestrated by some Messianic Jews. I held my tongue and nodded, but I threw up in my mouth a little.

She doesn't even know who Thomas and Alexander Campbell are (the ones who founded the church she has been a member of for some 60 years), let alone what a proper Great Friday service should look like. God forgive me for my judgment. It is just hard to stand by and say nothing, but I know that it is extremely rude and presumptive to correct one's elders.

Should I really remain silent in the situations, or would it be better to speak up?

I want peace in the family, but sometime I feel like I'm using that as a cop-out instead of gently nudging her toward the deeper Truth the her tradition contains only traces of.
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« Reply #52 on: April 01, 2010, 10:39:01 PM »

A piece of Advice to your Presbyterian Mother in Law: ask her from where she traces her line of teaching: Thomas Campbell...or the Apostle Thomas? If she says Mr. Campbell upholds the Apostles ask her to prove it...with his line of succession from the Apostles and the ways he has preserved their teachings across the centuries, the entire exegetical history from day one. Point her to the gravity of this issue, that its no joking matter:

As I have just said, and now I again say it, that if any one announce to you differently from what ye received, let him be accursed.
-Galatians 1:9

if she is unable to, point her that this is a direct violation of Paul's command to Timothy to preserve the teaching through laying on of hands, tradition, and the correct interpretation of the established sacraments of the Church. That should keep her thinking a bit.
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« Reply #53 on: June 18, 2010, 08:09:07 PM »

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One of the weirdest things I have seen any of them write is the claim that our Lord Jesus is the "incarnate Torah."
This is a little weird. On the other hand, we said that Christ is the Word of God made Flesh- Incarnate. The Holy Spirit spoke through the prophets, and the Torah is the first part of the Old Testament.

One thing that is funny to me- I think many Messianic Jews where yarmulkes. My understanding is that this wasn't done in Jesus' time. I read that Jews began the practice in medieval Europe to distinguish themselves from bare-headed Christian men and covered Christian women (who covered heads based on St Paul's teachings). It seems that continuing to wear yarmulkes goes against Old Testament practices, and could even come from an attempt to go against Christian customs.

Likewise I heard that they often have ideas like Arianism and get the impression they have a "literal" (ie. sola scriptura) reading of the Bible.

I find Messianic Judaism attractive because Christianity comes from OT Judaism, but some of what we find in Messianic Judaism might not even come from OT Judaism or Christianity.

It is interesting to speculate on the origins of many Palestinian Christians. They may have a greater claim to natural descent from Jacob than most of today's Jews.

Yes of course they do, and as surprising as it sounds that is not a controversial perspective in professional circles the way it is in political circles. Anthropologists use indigenous Palestinians, and not Israeli immigrants, as reference populations for research. Palestinian x-rays and available skeletons are used to compare with ancient Israelite skeletons found in excavations. Traditional aspects of modern Palestinian culture are referred to for throwing light on ancient customs in the Holy Land.
 
I also enjoy Blutwurst (blood sausage).

I am not familiar with that but it sounds sinful Smiley

Wow! Why does the Israeli government not recognize this when it insists to make Palestine a land for Jews by bulldozing thousands of Palestinian houses, and replacing them with settlers?
« Last Edit: June 18, 2010, 08:30:54 PM by rakovsky » Logged
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« Reply #54 on: June 18, 2010, 08:30:05 PM »

One of the weirdest things I have seen any of them write is the claim that our Lord Jesus is the "incarnate Torah."

I can explain this. The key is understanding the meaning of the Hebrew word torah, it means instruction/ordinance/statute. The understanding of Yeshua as "Torah Incarnate" is rooted in Him saying: "I am the way, the truth and the life". Since Yeshua is the embodiment of YHWH, He is therefore the embodiment of all YHWH's instructions (torah).
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« Reply #55 on: June 18, 2010, 08:34:11 PM »

One of the weirdest things I have seen any of them write is the claim that our Lord Jesus is the "incarnate Torah."

I can explain this. The key is understanding the meaning of the Hebrew word torah, it means instruction/ordinance/statute. The understanding of Yeshua as "Torah Incarnate" is rooted in Him saying: "I am the way, the truth and the life". Since Yeshua is the embodiment of YHWH, He is therefore the embodiment of all YHWH's instructions (torah).

This sounds very good. Christ is the Logos incarnate, and God's instructions, when "spoken", are part of His word.
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« Reply #56 on: June 20, 2010, 12:38:42 PM »

Bravo rakovsky, you got it. Smiley
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« Reply #57 on: June 20, 2010, 03:43:05 PM »

I find Messianic Judaism attractive because Christianity comes from OT Judaism, but some of what we find in Messianic Judaism might not even come from OT Judaism or Christianity.

That's because Chrisitanity comes from OT Christianity, and Judaism comes from NT Judaism (Pharisees, scribes, etc.)

It is interesting to speculate on the origins of many Palestinian Christians. They may have a greater claim to natural descent from Jacob than most of today's Jews.

Yes of course they do, and as surprising as it sounds that is not a controversial perspective in professional circles the way it is in political circles. Anthropologists use indigenous Palestinians, and not Israeli immigrants, as reference populations for research. Palestinian x-rays and available skeletons are used to compare with ancient Israelite skeletons found in excavations. Traditional aspects of modern Palestinian culture are referred to for throwing light on ancient customs in the Holy Land.
 
I also enjoy Blutwurst (blood sausage).

I am not familiar with that but it sounds sinful Smiley

Wow! Why does the Israeli government not recognize this when it insists to make Palestine a land for Jews by bulldozing thousands of Palestinian houses, and replacing them with settlers?
I remember an a Jew telling me how there is no such thing as archeology there: they dig until they find something Jewish/Hebrew, and then they stop.
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« Reply #58 on: June 21, 2010, 12:04:07 PM »

I find Messianic Judaism attractive because Christianity comes from OT Judaism, but some of what we find in Messianic Judaism might not even come from OT Judaism or Christianity.

That's because Chrisitanity comes from OT Christianity, and Judaism comes from NT Judaism (Pharisees, scribes, etc.)

Wouldn't it be more accurate to say Christianity and Rabbinic Judaism both came from 2nd Temple Judaism? Calling second Temple Judaism "NT Judaism" just doesn't sit well with me personally. It carries too much of a bias from a historical perspective. It would be like a devout Lutheran saying "Lutheranism comes pre-Reformation Lutheranism of the Eastern Church of the 5th century!" When in fact there was no Lutheran Church at the time. (Calvinists do the same thing with St. Augustine implying the early Church were in fact all Presbyterians)

It's a bias which I don't think is at all necessary considering the weight of evidence of 2nd Temple Judaism falls heavily in favor of Christianity being a more direct and loyal descendant of, than Rabbinic Judaism is. (though both are descendants, the similarities and theology between Christianity and the 2nd Temple period as you know, are striking)

I of course don't disagree with the point you're making at all, just the phrases "NT Judaism" and "Old Testament Christianity" I'm quibbling over. Smiley
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« Reply #59 on: June 21, 2010, 12:33:40 PM »

I find Messianic Judaism attractive because Christianity comes from OT Judaism, but some of what we find in Messianic Judaism might not even come from OT Judaism or Christianity.

That's because Chrisitanity comes from OT Christianity, and Judaism comes from NT Judaism (Pharisees, scribes, etc.)

Wouldn't it be more accurate to say Christianity and Rabbinic Judaism both came from 2nd Temple Judaism? Calling second Temple Judaism "NT Judaism" just doesn't sit well with me personally. It carries too much of a bias from a historical perspective. It would be like a devout Lutheran saying "Lutheranism comes pre-Reformation Lutheranism of the Eastern Church of the 5th century!" When in fact there was no Lutheran Church at the time. (Calvinists do the same thing with St. Augustine implying the early Church were in fact all Presbyterians)

It's a bias which I don't think is at all necessary considering the weight of evidence of 2nd Temple Judaism falls heavily in favor of Christianity being a more direct and loyal descendant of, than Rabbinic Judaism is. (though both are descendants, the similarities and theology between Christianity and the 2nd Temple period as you know, are striking)

I of course don't disagree with the point you're making at all, just the phrases "NT Judaism" and "Old Testament Christianity" I'm quibbling over. Smiley
"For Christianity did not believe into Judaism, but Judaism Christianity, that so every tongue which believeth might be gathered together to God." St. Igantius, Epistle to the Magnesians X (c. 105).

I'm somewhat more worried on the bias Rabbinic Judaism=Judaism, and which includes the Talmud and Dead Sea Scrolls but excludes the NT.

As for analogies, I'd include the attempt of Anglicans to read back their origins beyond the Supremacy Act to beyond Synod of Whitby etc.

But I think we are in agreement, beyond terminology.
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« Reply #60 on: June 21, 2010, 01:12:22 PM »

Quote
One of the weirdest things I have seen any of them write is the claim that our Lord Jesus is the "incarnate Torah."
This is a little weird. On the other hand, we said that Christ is the Word of God made Flesh- Incarnate. The Holy Spirit spoke through the prophets, and the Torah is the first part of the Old Testament.

One thing that is funny to me- I think many Messianic Jews where yarmulkes. My understanding is that this wasn't done in Jesus' time. I read that Jews began the practice in medieval Europe to distinguish themselves from bare-headed Christian men and covered Christian women (who covered heads based on St Paul's teachings). It seems that continuing to wear yarmulkes goes against Old Testament practices, and could even come from an attempt to go against Christian customs.

Likewise I heard that they often have ideas like Arianism and get the impression they have a "literal" (ie. sola scriptura) reading of the Bible.

I find Messianic Judaism attractive because Christianity comes from OT Judaism, but some of what we find in Messianic Judaism might not even come from OT Judaism or Christianity.

It is interesting to speculate on the origins of many Palestinian Christians. They may have a greater claim to natural descent from Jacob than most of today's Jews.

Yes of course they do, and as surprising as it sounds that is not a controversial perspective in professional circles the way it is in political circles. Anthropologists use indigenous Palestinians, and not Israeli immigrants, as reference populations for research. Palestinian x-rays and available skeletons are used to compare with ancient Israelite skeletons found in excavations. Traditional aspects of modern Palestinian culture are referred to for throwing light on ancient customs in the Holy Land.
 
I also enjoy Blutwurst (blood sausage).

I am not familiar with that but it sounds sinful Smiley

Wow! Why does the Israeli government not recognize this when it insists to make Palestine a land for Jews by bulldozing thousands of Palestinian houses, and replacing them with settlers?

Likewise I heard that they often have ideas like Arianism and get the impression they have a "literal" (ie. sola scriptura) reading of the Bible.


Actually, just he opposite is the case. Rabbinic Judaism is squarely based on Traditional interpretation of Scripture, not a literally reading. In fact, the Karaite Jews are critical of this approach and consider themselves to take their practices directly from scripture without the various Rabbinical interpretations which have led to some pretty nonsensical rules ( Tie your left shoe before your right she..etc.) 

Wow! Why does the Israeli government not recognize this when it insists to make Palestine a land for Jews by bulldozing thousands of Palestinian houses, and replacing them with settlers?[

Really?? Is that what happened?.. just one day out of the blue they show up and bulldoze Palestinians for no discernible reason, just some sort of pure evilness? Really ? 

I heard that when a Jihadist walks onto a public bus or sidewalk cafe with a bomb strapped to his body and murders every man woman and child, that they then go to his home and take it down...  My version seems a bit more defensible.
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« Reply #61 on: June 21, 2010, 01:23:09 PM »


Just a reminder to everyone this is the Religious Topics Forum, and not a Politics Forum. Can we try and stay away from Middle Eastern politics and keep things in the realm of the topic at hand. I realize sometimes the line between the two can be fine, but let's see if we can drop the Political talk. Thanks . . . .

NorthernPines, Religious Topics Forum Moderator
« Last Edit: June 21, 2010, 01:31:26 PM by NorthernPines » Logged
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« Reply #62 on: June 21, 2010, 01:26:45 PM »

Quote
One of the weirdest things I have seen any of them write is the claim that our Lord Jesus is the "incarnate Torah."
This is a little weird. On the other hand, we said that Christ is the Word of God made Flesh- Incarnate. The Holy Spirit spoke through the prophets, and the Torah is the first part of the Old Testament.

One thing that is funny to me- I think many Messianic Jews where yarmulkes. My understanding is that this wasn't done in Jesus' time. I read that Jews began the practice in medieval Europe to distinguish themselves from bare-headed Christian men and covered Christian women (who covered heads based on St Paul's teachings). It seems that continuing to wear yarmulkes goes against Old Testament practices, and could even come from an attempt to go against Christian customs.

Likewise I heard that they often have ideas like Arianism and get the impression they have a "literal" (ie. sola scriptura) reading of the Bible.

I find Messianic Judaism attractive because Christianity comes from OT Judaism, but some of what we find in Messianic Judaism might not even come from OT Judaism or Christianity.

It is interesting to speculate on the origins of many Palestinian Christians. They may have a greater claim to natural descent from Jacob than most of today's Jews.

Yes of course they do, and as surprising as it sounds that is not a controversial perspective in professional circles the way it is in political circles. Anthropologists use indigenous Palestinians, and not Israeli immigrants, as reference populations for research. Palestinian x-rays and available skeletons are used to compare with ancient Israelite skeletons found in excavations. Traditional aspects of modern Palestinian culture are referred to for throwing light on ancient customs in the Holy Land.
 
I also enjoy Blutwurst (blood sausage).

I am not familiar with that but it sounds sinful Smiley

Wow! Why does the Israeli government not recognize this when it insists to make Palestine a land for Jews by bulldozing thousands of Palestinian houses, and replacing them with settlers?

Likewise I heard that they often have ideas like Arianism and get the impression they have a "literal" (ie. sola scriptura) reading of the Bible.


Actually, just he opposite is the case. Rabbinic Judaism is squarely based on Traditional interpretation of Scripture, not a literally reading. In fact, the Karaite Jews are critical of this approach and consider themselves to take their practices directly from scripture without the various Rabbinical interpretations which have led to some pretty nonsensical rules ( Tie your left shoe before your right she..etc.) 

Wow! Why does the Israeli government not recognize this when it insists to make Palestine a land for Jews by bulldozing thousands of Palestinian houses, and replacing them with settlers?[

Really?? Is that what happened?.. just one day out of the blue they show up and bulldoze Palestinians for no discernible reason, just some sort of pure evilness? Really ? 

I heard that when a Jihadist walks onto a public bus or sidewalk cafe with a bomb strapped to his body and murders every man woman and child, that they then go to his home and take it down...  My version seems a bit more defensible.
Due to the above warning, can't answer here. Just research when a) Jihadists begin a appearing and b) when the policy of bulldozing non-Jewish homes started.
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« Reply #63 on: June 21, 2010, 01:33:25 PM »


I'm somewhat more worried on the bias Rabbinic Judaism=Judaism, and which includes the Talmud and Dead Sea Scrolls but excludes the NT.

As for analogies, I'd include the attempt of Anglicans to read back their origins beyond the Supremacy Act to beyond Synod of Whitby etc.

But I think we are in agreement, beyond terminology.


I agree that we agree, except in terminology! Smiley
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« Reply #64 on: June 21, 2010, 04:07:37 PM »

Quote
One of the weirdest things I have seen any of them write is the claim that our Lord Jesus is the "incarnate Torah."
This is a little weird. On the other hand, we said that Christ is the Word of God made Flesh- Incarnate. The Holy Spirit spoke through the prophets, and the Torah is the first part of the Old Testament.

One thing that is funny to me- I think many Messianic Jews where yarmulkes. My understanding is that this wasn't done in Jesus' time. I read that Jews began the practice in medieval Europe to distinguish themselves from bare-headed Christian men and covered Christian women (who covered heads based on St Paul's teachings). It seems that continuing to wear yarmulkes goes against Old Testament practices, and could even come from an attempt to go against Christian customs.

Likewise I heard that they often have ideas like Arianism and get the impression they have a "literal" (ie. sola scriptura) reading of the Bible.

I find Messianic Judaism attractive because Christianity comes from OT Judaism, but some of what we find in Messianic Judaism might not even come from OT Judaism or Christianity.

It is interesting to speculate on the origins of many Palestinian Christians. They may have a greater claim to natural descent from Jacob than most of today's Jews.

Yes of course they do, and as surprising as it sounds that is not a controversial perspective in professional circles the way it is in political circles. Anthropologists use indigenous Palestinians, and not Israeli immigrants, as reference populations for research. Palestinian x-rays and available skeletons are used to compare with ancient Israelite skeletons found in excavations. Traditional aspects of modern Palestinian culture are referred to for throwing light on ancient customs in the Holy Land.
 
I also enjoy Blutwurst (blood sausage).

I am not familiar with that but it sounds sinful Smiley

Wow! Why does the Israeli government not recognize this when it insists to make Palestine a land for Jews by bulldozing thousands of Palestinian houses, and replacing them with settlers?

Likewise I heard that they often have ideas like Arianism and get the impression they have a "literal" (ie. sola scriptura) reading of the Bible.


Actually, just he opposite is the case. Rabbinic Judaism is squarely based on Traditional interpretation of Scripture, not a literally reading. In fact, the Karaite Jews are critical of this approach and consider themselves to take their practices directly from scripture without the various Rabbinical interpretations which have led to some pretty nonsensical rules ( Tie your left shoe before your right she..etc.)  

Wow! Why does the Israeli government not recognize this when it insists to make Palestine a land for Jews by bulldozing thousands of Palestinian houses, and replacing them with settlers?[

Really?? Is that what happened?.. just one day out of the blue they show up and bulldoze Palestinians for no discernible reason, just some sort of pure evilness? Really ?  

I heard that when a Jihadist walks onto a public bus or sidewalk cafe with a bomb strapped to his body and murders every man woman and child, that they then go to his home and take it down...  My version seems a bit more defensible.
Due to the above warning, can't answer here. Just research when a) Jihadists begin a appearing and b) when the policy of bulldozing non-Jewish homes started.

Due to the above warning I cant answer any more than ISA has except to say to look up when the Jewish communities were wiped out in all the Arab Countries and the homes and businesses "bulldozed"

Perhaps someone would like to start a thread on this.
« Last Edit: June 21, 2010, 04:08:47 PM by Marc1152 » Logged

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« Reply #65 on: June 21, 2010, 04:24:48 PM »

Done Marc. You'll find the new thread in the Politics section.
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« Reply #66 on: June 21, 2010, 08:00:41 PM »

Wow! Why does the Israeli government not recognize this when it insists to make Palestine a land for Jews by bulldozing thousands of Palestinian houses, and replacing them with settlers?[

Really?? Is that what happened?.. just one day out of the blue they show up and bulldoze Palestinians for no discernible reason? Really ?  

Yes Marc. The Israeli Committee against House Demolitions counts over 24,000 homes bulldozed since Israel's occupation began based on official Israeli and UN sources. The website says:
Houses demolished as punishment for the actions of people associated with the houses. Although this is thought of by most people as the main reason why houses are demolished, in fact punitive demolitions account for only 8.5% of all defined demolitions.

To keep this thread on topic, my post is moved to: http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,28363.msg447603.html#msg447603
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« Reply #67 on: June 21, 2010, 08:45:29 PM »

NAZARENE,
Regarding Israel's relationship to the church, you may like the book SURPRISE BY CHRIST, a former Messianic Jew, now an Orthodox Priest. he has an interview here:
http://ancientfaith.com/podcasts/illuminedheart/surprised_by_christ
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« Reply #68 on: June 23, 2010, 04:31:09 PM »

Wow! Why does the Israeli government not recognize this when it insists to make Palestine a land for Jews by bulldozing thousands of Palestinian houses, and replacing them with settlers?[

Really?? Is that what happened?.. just one day out of the blue they show up and bulldoze Palestinians for no discernible reason? Really ?  

Yes Marc. The Israeli Committee against House Demolitions counts over 24,000 homes bulldozed since Israel's occupation began based on official Israeli and UN sources. The website says:
Houses demolished as punishment for the actions of people associated with the houses. Although this is thought of by most people as the main reason why houses are demolished, in fact punitive demolitions account for only 8.5% of all defined demolitions.

To keep this thread on topic, my post is moved to: http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,28363.msg447603.html#msg447603

A Jewish group.. No?  Any chance of a Syrian group advocating peace with Israel? Was there ever an Iraqi Group opposed to the confiscation of Jewish property? Maybe an Iranian Peace movement? I bet not. Which is the essential difference between  Israel and her enemies.

How many Jewish settlements were taken down by the Israeli's or does that not count?

What is the official Israeli Government figures or do we simply assume the most left wing groups are the most reliable?
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« Reply #69 on: June 23, 2010, 04:57:09 PM »

"If we are still living in the practice of Judaism, it is an admission that we have failed to receive the gift of grace (St. Ignatius, Letter to the Magnesians, 8 ).

"To profess Jesus Christ while continuing to follow Jewish customs is an absurdity. The Christian faith does not look to Judaism, but Judaism looks to Christianity, in which every other race and tongue that confesses a belief in God has now been comprehended (St. Ignatius, Letter to the Magnesians, 10).



hey here in Ethiopia we still folow the old testment's lows so does this mean that we are not following CHRIST
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« Reply #70 on: June 23, 2010, 05:05:45 PM »

"If we are still living in the practice of Judaism, it is an admission that we have failed to receive the gift of grace (St. Ignatius, Letter to the Magnesians, 8 ).

"To profess Jesus Christ while continuing to follow Jewish customs is an absurdity. The Christian faith does not look to Judaism, but Judaism looks to Christianity, in which every other race and tongue that confesses a belief in God has now been comprehended (St. Ignatius, Letter to the Magnesians, 10).



hey here in Ethiopia we still folow the old testment's lows so does this mean that we are not following CHRIST

Some would say no.  The same type, however, will quote the OT on why women shouldn't commune at certain times and other such pet issues.  Nothing wrong with Hebrews acting like Hebrews.
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« Reply #71 on: June 23, 2010, 06:09:16 PM »

"If we are still living in the practice of Judaism, it is an admission that we have failed to receive the gift of grace (St. Ignatius, Letter to the Magnesians, 8 ).

"To profess Jesus Christ while continuing to follow Jewish customs is an absurdity. The Christian faith does not look to Judaism, but Judaism looks to Christianity, in which every other race and tongue that confesses a belief in God has now been comprehended (St. Ignatius, Letter to the Magnesians, 10).



hey here in Ethiopia we still folow the old testment's lows so does this mean that we are not following CHRIST

Well if you're not following Christ then neither were the Apostles as they themselves kept the Torah.
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« Reply #72 on: June 23, 2010, 06:10:47 PM »

NAZARENE,
Regarding Israel's relationship to the church, you may like the book SURPRISE BY CHRIST, a former Messianic Jew, now an Orthodox Priest. he has an interview here:
http://ancientfaith.com/podcasts/illuminedheart/surprised_by_christ

His book has been recommended to me before and I'll get it when I'm able to (I don't live in the US which means I'll have to import it). Will listen to the interview when I have a moment to spare.
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« Reply #73 on: June 23, 2010, 07:10:57 PM »

"If we are still living in the practice of Judaism, it is an admission that we have failed to receive the gift of grace (St. Ignatius, Letter to the Magnesians, 8 ).

"To profess Jesus Christ while continuing to follow Jewish customs is an absurdity. The Christian faith does not look to Judaism, but Judaism looks to Christianity, in which every other race and tongue that confesses a belief in God has now been comprehended (St. Ignatius, Letter to the Magnesians, 10).



hey here in Ethiopia we still folow the old testment's lows so does this mean that we are not following CHRIST

Well if you're not following Christ then neither were the Apostles as they themselves kept the Torah.


 What is meant by "...kept the Torah"?  Thank you.  Smiley
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« Reply #74 on: June 23, 2010, 08:19:54 PM »

Wow! Why does the Israeli government not recognize this when it insists to make Palestine a land for Jews by bulldozing thousands of Palestinian houses, and replacing them with settlers?[

Really?? Is that what happened?.. just one day out of the blue they show up and bulldoze Palestinians for no discernible reason? Really ? 

Yes Marc. The Israeli Committee against House Demolitions counts over 24,000 homes bulldozed since Israel's occupation began based on official Israeli and UN sources. The website says:
Houses demolished as punishment for the actions of people associated with the houses. Although this is thought of by most people as the main reason why houses are demolished, in fact punitive demolitions account for only 8.5% of all defined demolitions.

To keep this thread on topic, my post is moved to: http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,28363.msg447603.html#msg447603

A Jewish group.. No?  Any chance of a Syrian group advocating peace with Israel? Was there ever an Iraqi Group opposed to the confiscation of Jewish property? Maybe an Iranian Peace movement? I bet not. Which is the essential difference between  Israel and her enemies.
Marc,

No, it is not just a Jewish group, it is an Israeli group inside Israel attacking Israel's violations.
You are suggesting that if Israeli groups condemn the State of Israel's crimes under International law against Christians, that shows Israeli society is honorable. Great! Are you one of those who condemns the Israeli army's expulsion of Christians?

Please follow the example of our Orthodox hierarchs and join their letter to Obama for peace:
Petition to End Israeli Army's Demolition of Orthodox Homes.
http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,28376.0.html

How many Jewish settlements were taken down by the Israeli's or does that not count?

Doesn't count because the settlements in the occupied territories, often built on top of Christian villages, violate international law. That is why the US government requests their removal.

If Israel wants a ONE-STATE solution, FINE, the settlements can stay. But Israel CLAIMS it wants a two-state solution. Under a Two-State Solution, you cannot have settlements scattered throughout an independent Palestine.

So does Israel want a Two-State Solution and its settlements are an dishonest violation of its announcements and intentions?

Or does Israel keep settlements all over Palestine because it wants to take over Palestine and its announcements about peace are a lie?

You have a duty to tell us the truth!

What is the official Israeli Government figures or do we simply assume the most left wing groups are the most reliable?
I think that we as Orthodox do assume that what our hierarchs say is true.
Further, the ICAHD looked well-researched, and there is strong anecdotal evidence from Palestinian Christians on the petition thread, the destruction of Christian monasteries and cemeteries etc.
« Last Edit: June 23, 2010, 08:27:52 PM by rakovsky » Logged
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« Reply #75 on: June 23, 2010, 08:27:34 PM »

One of the weirdest things I have seen any of them write is the claim that our Lord Jesus is the "incarnate Torah."

How is that weird at all?
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« Reply #76 on: June 23, 2010, 08:30:24 PM »

One of the weirdest things I have seen any of them write is the claim that our Lord Jesus is the "incarnate Torah."

How is that weird at all?

Weird means strange and "Incarnate Torah" is an unfamiliar term. The familiar term is "Word Made Flesh." Please see Nazarene and my earlier discussion about why these terms are similar.
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« Reply #77 on: June 23, 2010, 08:31:27 PM »

and the Torah is the first part of the Old Testament.

"Torah" does not always have such a limited meaning in historical Jewish usage.
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« Reply #78 on: June 23, 2010, 08:32:53 PM »

One of the weirdest things I have seen any of them write is the claim that our Lord Jesus is the "incarnate Torah."

I can explain this. The key is understanding the meaning of the Hebrew word torah, it means instruction/ordinance/statute. The understanding of Yeshua as "Torah Incarnate" is rooted in Him saying: "I am the way, the truth and the life". Since Yeshua is the embodiment of YHWH, He is therefore the embodiment of all YHWH's instructions (torah).

Also, it was my understanding that in Hellenistic Judaism, Torah came to take on a meaning very similar to Logos itself.
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« Reply #79 on: June 23, 2010, 08:36:45 PM »

"If we are still living in the practice of Judaism, it is an admission that we have failed to receive the gift of grace (St. Ignatius, Letter to the Magnesians, 8 ).

"To profess Jesus Christ while continuing to follow Jewish customs is an absurdity. The Christian faith does not look to Judaism, but Judaism looks to Christianity, in which every other race and tongue that confesses a belief in God has now been comprehended (St. Ignatius, Letter to the Magnesians, 10).

hey here in Ethiopia we still folow the old testment's lows so does this mean that we are not following CHRIST

Well if you're not following Christ then neither were the Apostles as they themselves kept the Torah.

Jesus' critics complained that Jesus and the apostles did not keep the sabbath in a strict way and drank alot. Jesus had answers for them.

Generally, I think they did keep the Torah, although some parts of the Torah like the 1. Mikvahs, 1. the passover lamb, 3. the feast of first fruits have apparently been transformed into Christian customs: 1. Water/Holy Spirit Baptism, 2. Communion meal where Jesus is the lamb, 3. The Paskhal Holiday of Resurrection/Easter.

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« Reply #80 on: June 23, 2010, 08:37:45 PM »

One of the weirdest things I have seen any of them write is the claim that our Lord Jesus is the "incarnate Torah."

I can explain this. The key is understanding the meaning of the Hebrew word torah, it means instruction/ordinance/statute. The understanding of Yeshua as "Torah Incarnate" is rooted in Him saying: "I am the way, the truth and the life". Since Yeshua is the embodiment of YHWH, He is therefore the embodiment of all YHWH's instructions (torah).

Also, it was my understanding that in Hellenistic Judaism, Torah came to take on a meaning very similar to Logos itself.

What did you have trouble with when reading my and Nazarenes' earlier posts on the subject?
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« Reply #81 on: June 23, 2010, 08:39:27 PM »

One of the weirdest things I have seen any of them write is the claim that our Lord Jesus is the "incarnate Torah."

I can explain this. The key is understanding the meaning of the Hebrew word torah, it means instruction/ordinance/statute. The understanding of Yeshua as "Torah Incarnate" is rooted in Him saying: "I am the way, the truth and the life". Since Yeshua is the embodiment of YHWH, He is therefore the embodiment of all YHWH's instructions (torah).

Also, it was my understanding that in Hellenistic Judaism, Torah came to take on a meaning very similar to Logos itself.

What did you have trouble with when reading my and Nazarenes' earlier posts on the subject?

I don't think there was any mention of the likening of "Torah" and "Logos" in the Hellenistic period of Judaism a la Philo.
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« Reply #82 on: June 23, 2010, 08:42:28 PM »

One of the weirdest things I have seen any of them write is the claim that our Lord Jesus is the "incarnate Torah."

I can explain this. The key is understanding the meaning of the Hebrew word torah, it means instruction/ordinance/statute. The understanding of Yeshua as "Torah Incarnate" is rooted in Him saying: "I am the way, the truth and the life". Since Yeshua is the embodiment of YHWH, He is therefore the embodiment of all YHWH's instructions (torah).

Also, it was my understanding that in Hellenistic Judaism, Torah came to take on a meaning very similar to Logos itself.

What did you have trouble with when reading my and Nazarenes' earlier posts on the subject?

I don't think there was any mention of the likening of "Torah" and "Logos" in the Hellenistic period of Judaism a la Philo.
OK, so you are saying that it is weird too.
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« Reply #83 on: June 23, 2010, 09:03:27 PM »

One of the weirdest things I have seen any of them write is the claim that our Lord Jesus is the "incarnate Torah."

I can explain this. The key is understanding the meaning of the Hebrew word torah, it means instruction/ordinance/statute. The understanding of Yeshua as "Torah Incarnate" is rooted in Him saying: "I am the way, the truth and the life". Since Yeshua is the embodiment of YHWH, He is therefore the embodiment of all YHWH's instructions (torah).

Also, it was my understanding that in Hellenistic Judaism, Torah came to take on a meaning very similar to Logos itself.

What did you have trouble with when reading my and Nazarenes' earlier posts on the subject?

I don't think there was any mention of the likening of "Torah" and "Logos" in the Hellenistic period of Judaism a la Philo.
OK, so you are saying that it is weird too.

No, I'm pointing out that given more developed understandings of Torah that it is not weird to think of Jesus as the inhominate Torah, as it is not that different from saying that He is the inhominate Logos.
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« Reply #84 on: June 24, 2010, 12:02:12 PM »


Ok, for starters the tangent about Middle Eastern Politics has been split off and merged with rakovsky's new thread/poll which can be found here http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,28376.0.html Go there, and talk about Israeli politics, or one of the other threads which are currently discussing similar topics.

I am keeping this thread open for the moment, because I believe it's an important topic and the discussion may be beneficial to a great many people now and in the future. However one more infraction of the Forum Rules where someone tosses in Middle Eastern politics, specifically after my warning to NOT interject Middle Eastern politics and the thread will be locked, and whoever the person is who brings up Middle Eastern politics will be given a public warning.

I feel I'm being pretty lenient on this issue, so I hope no one decides to see how far they can push my leniency.

Thanks for understanding . . . .

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« Reply #85 on: June 24, 2010, 12:44:28 PM »

"If we are still living in the practice of Judaism, it is an admission that we have failed to receive the gift of grace (St. Ignatius, Letter to the Magnesians, 8 ).

"To profess Jesus Christ while continuing to follow Jewish customs is an absurdity. The Christian faith does not look to Judaism, but Judaism looks to Christianity, in which every other race and tongue that confesses a belief in God has now been comprehended (St. Ignatius, Letter to the Magnesians, 10).



hey here in Ethiopia we still folow the old testment's lows so does this mean that we are not following CHRIST

Well if you're not following Christ then neither were the Apostles as they themselves kept the Torah.


 What is meant by "...kept the Torah"?  Thank you.  Smiley

They kept the 10 Commandments, the Sabbath, the Feasts and a Kosher diet. Paul also once took the Nazarite vow and circumcised Timothy.

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« Reply #86 on: June 24, 2010, 01:02:11 PM »

One of the weirdest things I have seen any of them write is the claim that our Lord Jesus is the "incarnate Torah."

I can explain this. The key is understanding the meaning of the Hebrew word torah, it means instruction/ordinance/statute. The understanding of Yeshua as "Torah Incarnate" is rooted in Him saying: "I am the way, the truth and the life". Since Yeshua is the embodiment of YHWH, He is therefore the embodiment of all YHWH's instructions (torah).

Also, it was my understanding that in Hellenistic Judaism, Torah came to take on a meaning very similar to Logos itself.

Funny you should mention that, I once came across one Messianic Bible translation that reads in John 1: "In the beginning was the Torah...", meant in the way I explained it of course.
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« Reply #87 on: June 24, 2010, 06:29:20 PM »

Nazarene,

Did you get to listen to the podcast by Rev. Bernstein? I think you would like it!
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« Reply #88 on: June 24, 2010, 06:58:32 PM »

Nazarene,

Did you get to listen to the podcast by Rev. Bernstein? I think you would like it!

I plan to do so tomorrow.
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« Reply #89 on: June 24, 2010, 08:36:51 PM »

His book looks pretty good too.

Fr. Bernstein follows a trend in Orthodoxy critical of various atonement theologies. I would like to see how to square our Orthodox view with the prophecy in Isaiah 53, the doctrines about sacrifice in Old Testament Judaism, and the image of Jesus as the lamb of God.

Perhaps you can say a few words about this.
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