Author Topic: Bishop's and Priest's Prerogatives  (Read 1351 times)

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Offline scamandrius

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Bishop's and Priest's Prerogatives
« on: October 28, 2007, 04:14:53 PM »
My priest traditionally does a lot of the chanting during Vespers and Orthros which are traditionally reserved for the chanters to do.  The reason is that prior to his coming, our church had not celebrated these offices so when he came, he had to do a lot of the hymns himself and it was only later, with people learning to chant, that others could take away the burden. 

Now when a bishop comes, I understand that it is his  traditional "right" (forgive me for not using the correct term) to sing/chant Psalm 103 and Phos Hilaron.  But does that also include the first part of Psalm 140 "Lord, I have cried"?  The reason I ask is because our priest wants to start singng that since he is the Bishop's representative.  I've never heard of the bishop even doing this and he has never done this when he has come to visit our parish.  Thoughts?
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Offline PeterTheAleut

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Re: Bishop's and Priest's Prerogatives
« Reply #1 on: October 28, 2007, 07:44:48 PM »
But does that also include the first part of Psalm 140 "Lord, I have cried"?
I imagine, knowing your background in the ROCOR--please correct me if I'm wrong--that you're talking about traditional Slavic practice?  I have helped sing a hierarchical Vespers one or two times with Bishop Benjamin (OCA-DOW) and don't remember anything of the nature you describe regarding the prayer "Lord, I have cried".  I'm sure if any bishop would know the standard practice, it would be His Grace (+Benjamin), since he likes to follow the liturgical traditions rather closely and has years of experience as a church choir director.
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Offline arimethea

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Re: Bishop's and Priest's Prerogatives
« Reply #2 on: October 28, 2007, 10:42:01 PM »
The reason I ask is because our priest wants to start singng that since he is the Bishop's representative.  I've never heard of the bishop even doing this and he has never done this when he has come to visit our parish.  Thoughts?
The priest is responcible for all services in the parish so if this is how he wants it done then this is how it will be done, if you don't like it then too bad.
Joseph

Offline scamandrius

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Re: Bishop's and Priest's Prerogatives
« Reply #3 on: October 28, 2007, 11:11:51 PM »
The priest is responcible for all services in the parish so if this is how he wants it done then this is how it will be done, if you don't like it then too bad.

Arimethea,

I am always obedient to my priest and his directions.  As far as I am concerned, he IS the Typicon.  It just seemed to come out of nowhere and as I have never seen this done, not even at hierarchical Liturgies, I was curious about the nature of the change.  You seemed to think I was whining in my post, hence your response of "Too bad."  There was no need for that as your assumption was incorrect.

PTA,

I'm not ROCOR; I am Antiochian.  My bishop is Right Rev. Bishop +BASIL of the Diocese of the West and Mid-America.
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Offline PeterTheAleut

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Re: Bishop's and Priest's Prerogatives
« Reply #4 on: October 28, 2007, 11:23:37 PM »
PTA,

I'm not ROCOR; I am Antiochian.  My bishop is Right Rev. Bishop +BASIL of the Diocese of the West and Mid-America.
My apologies for misidentifying your background.  I suppose I needed to be more observant to how you have identified yourself in past posts.  My bad. :-[

As far as how I represented the practice I've seen in my OCA/Russian practice, I trust that you'll draw from that whatever applies to your Antiochian practice, in conjunction with your priest.  Pertaining to what arimethea said, regardless of the condescending tone you may have picked up in his reply, his words are fundamentally true, which I trust from your reply that you understand.
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Offline arimethea

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Re: Bishop's and Priest's Prerogatives
« Reply #5 on: October 29, 2007, 09:54:35 AM »
You seemed to think I was whining in my post, hence your response of "Too bad."  There was no need for that as your assumption was incorrect...

I'm not ROCOR; I am Antiochian.  My bishop is Right Rev. Bishop +BASIL of the Diocese of the West and Mid-America.
My "too bad" comment was a general statment of this is how it is, it is the priest perogitive on how the services are run. If you don't want to be accused of whining then don't make your post look like you are complaining about your priest because that is how it reads.

Now as for the practice in the Antiochian Archdiocese, the Bishop has the perogotive to read the opening psalm, Chant the "Lord I have cried," chant the prokemenion, recite the evening prayer, read St. Symeon's prayer, and chant the dismissal hymns. The only ones of these things that are also not at the perogotive of the priest to do is the opening psalm because he is doing his prayers at this point.
Joseph

Offline Fr. George

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Re: Bishop's and Priest's Prerogatives
« Reply #6 on: October 29, 2007, 10:13:03 AM »
Now as for the practice in the Antiochian Archdiocese, the Bishop has the perogotive to read the opening psalm, Chant the "Lord I have cried," chant the prokemenion, recite the evening prayer, read St. Symeon's prayer, and chant the dismissal hymns. The only ones of these things that are also not at the perogotive of the priest to do is the opening psalm because he is doing his prayers at this point. 

This is pretty standard for the Greeks, except that the priest doesn't attempt to "take" what is the Bishop's "perogative" as far as chanted hymns go. 

Personally, I don't like how the Bishops and Priests decide to chant things that should really be done by Cantors, and read things that should be read by Readers.  This idea that successively "higher" orders of clergy also contain all the charism and responsibilities of the "lower" ones is, in my mind, too much of a change from the traditional structure of the Church.  Some of this is a "clericalism" movement within Orthodoxy; some of it is indicative of the fact that people don't take on these traditional roles of the Church (sexton, Reader, Cantor, Subdeacon) anymore, leaving the clergyman to do more than what he is originally supposed to do; some of it is due to the phenomenon of "horostasia," when the Bishop doesn't vest for a service he is attending.  This last point is particularly troubling for me - he is the Head of the Eucharistic assembly, the place and type of Christ, and he doesn't act as Chief celebrant at many of the services.
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Offline scamandrius

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Re: Bishop's and Priest's Prerogatives
« Reply #7 on: October 29, 2007, 01:22:04 PM »
My apologies for misidentifying your background.  I suppose I needed to be more observant to how you have identified yourself in past posts.  My bad. :-[

As far as how I represented the practice I've seen in my OCA/Russian practice, I trust that you'll draw from that whatever applies to your Antiochian practice, in conjunction with your priest.  Pertaining to what arimethea said, regardless of the condescending tone you may have picked up in his reply, his words are fundamentally true, which I trust from your reply that you understand.

PTA,

NO worries.  And forgive me if my response seemed to be done "in a snap."  It was not intended as such.   ANd considering how many people are on this board at any one time, how can you possibly remember the jurisdiction of all of them?  Again, no worries.

I understand Arimethea's words.  I'm just seeking clarification for this "change", though I do agree with Cleveland in that it seems more and more responsibility is being taken from the chanters and readers.  I don't know if it is because of some hyper-clericism which is sweeping the Orthodox around the nation or just an attempt to preserve the traditions which are being chipped away at because too many people are uneducated or do not care about the traditions we hold so dear.
I seek the truth by which no man was ever harmed--Marcus Aurelius

Those who do not read  history are doomed to get their facts from Hollywood--Anonymous

What earthly joy remains untouched by grief?--St. John Damascene