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Author Topic: Are Protestants Christians?  (Read 21409 times) Average Rating: 0
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pathofsolitude
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« on: October 27, 2007, 07:43:11 PM »

We must ask how exactly the heathen prayed. I imagine a bunch of rowdy pagan women loudly entreating their gods over and over to do something for them. Or some commentaries describe the "vain reptitions" as babbling. Like glossalia. The feature of their way of prayer is that they need to ramble over and over again for the gods to hear them.

The Hesychast Way has absolutely nothing to do with that. The words of the Jesus Prayer are only the means to attain devotion of heart and inner stillness. And the Hesychast does not pray for wordly things like the worthless pagans and Protestants do. He is only abiding in the absolute assurance of the divine presence, the peace that surpasses all understanding, and the beginning of eternal glory.

Of course the godless, totally wretched, and utterly apostate Protestants know nothing about this. This is because they are devoid of the Holy Spirit. If they ever use their Matt 6:7 arguement against the Saints I tell them that they are antichrists. Its as simple as that. The lifeless thug Protestants dont even deserve to be heard because they have reduced their religion to Sunday preaching service, potlock dinners, and Billy Graham crusades.

If they only knew that the Jesus Prayer, when truly practiced, is entirely esoteric...
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« Reply #1 on: October 27, 2007, 08:52:15 PM »

they are devoid of the Holy Spirit.
Unlike your post which is just so filled with the Holy Spirit, for example:
godless, totally wretched, and utterly apostate Protestants....they are devoid of the Holy Spirit....I tell them that they are antichrists...
Roll Eyes

The lifeless thug Protestants
Physician, heal thyself.
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pathofsolitude
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« Reply #2 on: October 27, 2007, 09:52:42 PM »

Unlike your post which is just so filled with the Holy Spirit, for example: Roll Eyes
 Physician, heal thyself.

Protestants are antichrists because they teach a book religion with absolutely no esoteric or mystical value. And they dont believe in sainthood. They dont fast, dont pray more than five minutes a day, and have no true experience of divine things. Yet these people run all over the place screaming the name of Jesus just like the demonaics we hear about in Scripture.

The Lord Jesus Christ, the Divine Savior of the Universe, utterly condemned this totally false external religiosity. He called the Pharisees: white washed tombs, brood of vipors, and children of the devil. Then it was the Pharisees and now it is the Protestants. Are you suggesting that the Protestants are not these things? Indeed the exact equivalent of "white washed tomb" is "lifeless" or "totally wretched", and of "brood of vipors" is "thugs", and of "children of the devil" is "godless" or "utterly apostate". Are you suggesting that the Lord Jesus Christ was not filled with the Holy Spirit when he said this???

I am not a Physician. I am merely pointing out that the Apostles charged us to condemn all antichrists who make fun of the Hesychast Way of the Lord Jesus. This is a life and death battle. It is not the path for "nice" people but only for those who walk in the living strength of the Spirit and conquer death by death. Whoever does not reign with the Cherubim and Seraphim in Hesychasm will be burnt!
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« Reply #3 on: October 27, 2007, 10:11:15 PM »

The way to do gods will is to look inside of our selves and not judge our neighbors. This is what George is trying to convey.
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« Reply #4 on: October 27, 2007, 10:27:40 PM »

Protestants are antichrists because they teach a book religion with absolutely no esoteric or mystical value. And they dont believe in sainthood. They dont fast, dont pray more than five minutes a day, and have no true experience of divine things. Yet these people run all over the place screaming the name of Jesus just like the demonaics we hear about in Scripture.



I know many protestant christians who fast, and pray for more than '' five minutes ''. I think you are judging all protestant christians because some (Protestant) christians live this way. I think the same can be said for us, as orthodox christians, many are luke warm and dont pray much or even consider fasting.
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« Reply #5 on: October 27, 2007, 10:38:22 PM »

I know many protestant christians who fast, and pray for more than '' five minutes ''. I think you are judging all protestant christians because some (Protestant) christians live this way. I think the same can be said for us, as orthodox christians, many are luke warm and dont pray much or even consider fasting.

I grant that there are a *few* exceptions among the Protestants. But I would say 99% of them are lost.

As for "orthodox christians" who "dont pray much or even consider fasting", they will be burnt!
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« Reply #6 on: October 27, 2007, 10:54:22 PM »

I grant that there are a *few* exceptions among the Protestants. But I would say 99% of them are lost.

As for "orthodox christians" who "dont pray much or even consider fasting", they will be burnt!
Interesting......[yawn]
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« Reply #7 on: October 27, 2007, 10:58:34 PM »

It is just the kind of non-judgemental love that Path is displaying here that has drawn me home. Roll Eyes Roll Eyes Roll Eyes   Wow--and I thought that all bigotted fundamentalist were Protestant! 
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« Reply #8 on: October 27, 2007, 11:08:00 PM »

It is just the kind of non-judgemental love that Path is displaying here that has drawn me home. Roll Eyes Roll Eyes Roll Eyes   Wow--and I thought that all bigotted fundamentalist were Protestant! 
Well, apparently pathofsolitude is not Eastern Orthodox either if his/her first post is anything to go by: http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,13028.msg178682.html#msg178682
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« Reply #9 on: October 27, 2007, 11:28:05 PM »

I've never questioned whether or not Protestants are Christians, but the subject of whether or not Protestantism is heretical has come up.
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« Reply #10 on: October 27, 2007, 11:33:41 PM »

I grant that there are a *few* exceptions among the Protestants. But I would say 99% of them are lost.

As for "orthodox christians" who "dont pray much or even consider fasting", they will be burnt!

Someone please tell me that someone "invented" this persona just to get a rise out of us or play a joke.  I mean, I am as mean-spirited as they come, but I wouldn't ever (I hope and I pray) say such inflammatory (and absolutely useless) statements such as these.
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« Reply #11 on: October 27, 2007, 11:41:45 PM »

Has anyone ever noticed that you just can't reason with someone who's irrational?
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« Reply #12 on: October 27, 2007, 11:44:16 PM »

PathofSolitude: when I read your original post, a parable in Luke came to my mind:

 Luke 18:9-14
Jesus told this parable to some who trusted in themselves that they were righteous and regarded others with contempt: "Two men went up to the temple to pray, one a Pharisee and the other a tax collector. The Pharisee, standing by himself, was praying thus, `God, I thank you that I am not like other people: thieves, rogues, adulterers, or even like this tax collector. I fast twice a week; I give a tenth of all my income.' But the tax collector, standing far off, would not even look up to heaven, but was beating his breast and saying, `God, be merciful to me, a sinner!' I tell you, this man went down to his home justified rather than the other; for all who exalt themselves will be humbled, but all who humble themselves will be exalted."

If you want to make the world a better place take a look at yourself and make that change!

May the Grace and Peace of our Lord Christ Jesus be with you!

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« Reply #13 on: October 28, 2007, 12:00:20 AM »

Amen to that Sophia!

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« Reply #14 on: October 28, 2007, 12:00:39 AM »

If you want to make the world a better place take a look at yourself and make that change!
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« Reply #15 on: October 28, 2007, 02:23:51 AM »

Just so everyone knows, this thread was originally part of a different thread, but was cut and pasted to form a new one. If someone didnt know this my first post would look like I am speaking off the top of my head! Here is the context: http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,13165.0.html
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The great apostasy has occured. Get out of there while you can!!! Its better to be priestless than to have a heretic bishop. The apostles taught that the church consists of saints only. There are about 7,000 Spirit-bearers currently in the catacombs.
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« Reply #16 on: October 28, 2007, 02:35:58 AM »

Well I am deeply concerned about you guys. But, in our ecumenical age, I am not surprised. You are practically condemning the Saints who said the same thing I am saying about lifeless heretics: namely that they are totally devoid of the Holy Spirit, that they have lost their salvation, that they are evil serpents, and that they will be burnt. This is what will happen to Protestants who choose to not repent of their wordly ways. Again, I am saying the exact same things the Saints said, and also what the Scriptures say.

Please understand that I am speaking of Protestants in general. I am not trying to judge individual souls because I cannot tell which are the 1% who are in invincible ignorance. Thats what the Lord meant when he told us not to judge. He did not mean that we shouldnt say that heretics such as Protestants will be totally wasted by the demons in eternal torment. Thats just a matter of fact. Its taught in Scripture!
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The great apostasy has occured. Get out of there while you can!!! Its better to be priestless than to have a heretic bishop. The apostles taught that the church consists of saints only. There are about 7,000 Spirit-bearers currently in the catacombs.
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« Reply #17 on: October 28, 2007, 02:57:47 AM »

edifying stuff!  Roll Eyes
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« Reply #18 on: October 28, 2007, 03:24:11 AM »

Well I am deeply concerned about you guys. But, in our ecumenical age, I am not surprised. You are practically condemning the Saints who said the same thing I am saying about lifeless heretics: namely that they are totally devoid of the Holy Spirit, that they have lost their salvation, that they are evil serpents, and that they will be burnt. This is what will happen to Protestants who choose to not repent of their wordly ways. Again, I am saying the exact same things the Saints said, and also what the Scriptures say.
Anyone can say, "The Saints say this; the Saints say that" to support a point of view that doesn't jibe with the Orthodox phronema.  Can you give us quotations from the Saints to support such a controversial thesis as you argue, that Protestants are damned to hell?  I'm not talking about their general condemnation of heretics, for this requires our own application of these anathemas (applications that may or may not be justified) specifically to Protestants.  I'm talking about specific instances of Saints speaking out against Protestantism.

Quote
Please understand that I am speaking of Protestants in general. I am not trying to judge individual souls because I cannot tell which are the 1% who are in invincible ignorance. Thats what the Lord meant when he told us not to judge. He did not mean that we shouldnt say that heretics such as Protestants will be totally wasted by the demons in eternal torment. Thats just a matter of fact. Its taught in Scripture!
The doctrine that heretical teachers will be condemned is taught in Scripture, but your application of this teaching to Protestants is purely your own.  Maybe the best thing for you to do is to not concern yourself about whether Protestants (and we "modernists" who don't hold to your apparently self-styled traditionalism) are going to hell but to focus on what you need to do to avoid the fires of hell yourself.  I don't mean that as any condemnation of you, for this is the same thing about which I am concerned for my own salvation.


BTW, you present yourself in some sense as Orthodox, yet, at the same time, you've left subtle hints that you are in fact NOT Orthodox (at least not in communion with a "canonical" Orthodox bishop).  We at least know from your most recent rant that you're MOST DEFINITELY NOT Protestant, but most Roman/Eastern Rite Catholics will say that much.  It might be helpful for us in our discussions with you, then, if you revealed to us what tradition you do represent.
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« Reply #19 on: October 28, 2007, 03:37:51 AM »

Just so everyone knows, this thread was originally part of a different thread, but was cut and pasted to form a new one. If someone didnt know this my first post would look like I am speaking off the top of my head! Here is the context
The sad thing is that you actually think there is a context in which it is acceptable to say:
I grant that there are a *few* exceptions among the Protestants. But I would say 99% of them are lost.
As for "orthodox christians" who "dont pray much or even consider fasting", they will be burnt!
And:
the worthless pagans and Protestants .....the godless, totally wretched, and utterly apostate Protestants .....they are devoid of the Holy Spirit.....I tell them that they are antichrists. Its as simple as that. ...lifeless thug Protestants dont even deserve to be heard
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« Reply #20 on: October 28, 2007, 09:02:33 AM »

Everyone who has been baptized in the name of the Trinity is a Christian. What's your point, Pathofsolitude?
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« Reply #21 on: October 28, 2007, 09:26:18 AM »

I believe there are many Protestants that were just like me they began with faith,and desperately seeking the truth,they are open minded. Once I realized that ALL truth does not come from the bible alone but from Jesus Christ the Word of God made flesh,I was on the right path, But there are Protestants who feel they have arrived,those who still look to the bible alone for their solace.
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« Reply #22 on: October 28, 2007, 09:31:16 AM »

Good point, Denny. As a former Protestant, I believe that my Orthodox faith is the same faith I had when I was Protestant; it's just more complete now. And I was baptized in the name of the Trinity.
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« Reply #23 on: October 28, 2007, 11:32:33 AM »

Pathofsolitude:

I don't think most people here would disagree with you that there are some severe problems within the Protestant community, especially the Prosperity Gospel movement, which I think you were criticising in your original post.  In fact, if you click the tag below you'll see a couple of discussions criticising some of these movements.

I think it was your tone which has put people off.  We at OC.net can get pretty rowdy and critical of others and even each other, but we tend to refrain from condemning anyone to hell, as that is something only God Himself can do.  This is so even if a group's beliefs and practices are completely heterodox, as some of the Protestant groups' beliefs and practices clearly are.

It's a matter of observing certain boundaries when discussing here.  If you want to believe certain groups are heterodox, I don't think that is a problem as there are others here who would agree.  You just need to soften your tone and refrain from saying that certain people are going to hell, even if that is your belief.  I think you would agree that deciding who is condemned or not is truly only for God to say. 

Perhaps it would help if you told us a little about yourself.  It seems you may have had some personal experience with Protestantism and that your experience told you there was something wrong with that community.  Is that the case?  If so, you will find you are not alone, as many people here are former Protestants.  Also, are you currently searching for a new Church "home?"  I've noticed that you have been asking questions of both the EO's and OO's here.  That is O.K. of course, since this is a great place to learn about different communions.  Of course you don't have to tell us anything about yourself, but doing so would definitely help us in understanding where you are coming from.   Smiley

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« Reply #24 on: October 28, 2007, 11:53:32 AM »

What's your point, Pathofsolitude?

ACTUALLY I didnt start this thread or come up with the title of the thread. It magically appeared! Originally it was part of a post on answering Protestant accusations against the Jesus Prayer. That was all that I wanted to talk about. Not start a thread on whether they are Christians. Anyways my original point was how those aspiring to be Saints should stand in relation to Protestants trying to tell us that the Hesychast Way is heathenism. Do we bother to defend the Scriptures to them? Absolutely not!! The Scriptures are only written for the Saints. Spiritually apostate souls do not have esoteric access to the mysteries. We should never ever let their worldly external religiousity even touch the holy things. Thats why Jesus condemned them flat out as children of the devil. And thats the practice of the Apostles as we see from several examples in the book of Acts where they did not hesitate to condemn the godless pseudoChristians in the spirit of Matthew 23.

Quote
Everyone who has been baptized in the name of the Trinity is a Christian.

You know good and well that this is not what your own Byzantine church historically believed. To be frank, its utter nonsense, and worthy of the worse condemnation by whatever sound hierarchs remain in your Communion. Do you realize the implications? It means that people who have been baptized and claim to be Christian [I guess as their ancesteral heritage, I dont know what they mean] but who dont even believe in the existence of a personal God are Christians. This is the situation of about 40% of Europe right now. And if you only refer to people who purportedly believe in the veracity of the Scriptures, think of all the millions of people out there who even go to Sunday preacher lectures, and yet dont bother to pray more than five minutes a day. Are they Christians? Absolutely not!! A Christian is literally an "Anointed One", one who has been baptized in the Holy Spirit and Fire, who lives mystically IN Christ. He has become a fully functional spirit being seated in the heavenlies. But you think mere water is sufficient and that the indwelling of the Holy Spirit is not necessary??? I assure you that Baptists or Presbyterians who usually only say some external prayers before meals and before bed do not have the Spirit. Rather they are living totally devoid of almighty God. If you dont know what I mean then I desparately feel for you.
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« Reply #25 on: October 28, 2007, 11:55:13 AM »

We must ask how exactly the heathen prayed. I imagine a bunch of rowdy pagan women loudly entreating their gods over and over to do something for them. Or some commentaries describe the "vain reptitions" as babbling. Like glossalia. The feature of their way of prayer is that they need to ramble over and over again for the gods to hear them.

This is putting your own imaginating on other people.  On what reality do you base this, please?  If one wishes to consider real "pagan" by which do you mean non-Christian/non-monotheist religious practice and prayers, one can find out from real human beings. In Japan, Shinto is by no means "rowdy" or loud, but very restrained and with definite ritual for example.  

Quote
And the Hesychast does not pray for wordly things like the worthless pagans and Protestants do.

 Undecided Roll Eyes  You call other human beings who God created in His Image "worthless"?  

Quote

Of course the godless, totally wretched, and utterly apostate Protestants know nothing about this. This is because they are devoid of the Holy Spirit. If they ever use their Matt 6:7 arguement against the Saints I tell them that they are antichrists. Its as simple as that. The lifeless thug Protestants dont even deserve to be heard because they have reduced their religion to Sunday preaching service, potlock dinners, and Billy Graham crusades.

If they only knew that the Jesus Prayer, when truly practiced, is entirely esoteric...

I'm sorry, this reads to me as contemptuous of others.  How do you *know* that others are "totally wretched" or Godless?  Because they are not part of your esoteric 'inner ring'?  Your description is a caricature, a mean mocking cartoon that has little or nothing to do with many real people.

And just to be repetitive: there is no such thing as an amorphous blog of "Protestants".  There are different Churches and groups with some things in common and some things different.  Often the differences are in custom or ways of doing things.  The above derogatory screed does not describe any Anglican/Episcopalian that I know for example.

Ebor
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« Reply #26 on: October 28, 2007, 12:00:51 PM »

Protestants are antichrists because they teach a book religion with absolutely no esoteric or mystical value. And they dont believe in sainthood. They dont fast, dont pray more than five minutes a day, and have no true experience of divine things.

May one ask just *which* denomination you are referring to here, please?  Also, there is a great deal of heat not to say intemperate language in your caricature.  Have you had unfortunate experiences with any particular body that have caused such anger?

Just for the record, in the Anglican Communion there is not 'just a book religion', there is a place for mysticism, we do believe in saints (we even have a Kalendar of saints and commemorations) and more.  Also, meaning no disrespect, but how would *you* know if other people have or have not had any "true experience of divine things"? 

Ebor  Undecided

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« Reply #27 on: October 28, 2007, 12:04:48 PM »

I grant that there are a *few* exceptions among the Protestants. But I would say 99% of them are lost.

May one ask who you think are exceptions, please?  I am very much wanting to know, and not trying to give you a hard time on this one.  Thank you in advance.

On what basis do you feel so free as to be sure that so many are "lost"?

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As for "orthodox christians" who "dont pray much or even consider fasting", they will be burnt!

"The LORD is full of compassion and gracious, slow to anger, and plenteous in mercy"  from the Psalms

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« Reply #28 on: October 28, 2007, 12:08:31 PM »

Someone please tell me that someone "invented" this persona just to get a rise out of us or play a joke.  I mean, I am as mean-spirited as they come, but I wouldn't ever (I hope and I pray) say such inflammatory (and absolutely useless) statements such as these.

I was wondering the same thing, Scamandrius.  Such things have been known to happen for the perpetrator's amusement, for example.

And, as you wrote, such statements are 'useless' and even more so damaging in that if such a person were the only representative of EO I surely would not want to be part of a group with such a vicious demeanor.

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« Reply #29 on: October 28, 2007, 12:10:35 PM »

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You call other human beings who God created in His Image "worthless"?  


WHAT??? Maybe you should reread what the Scriptures say about the souls that are born into this world. Start with Romans 1-3. Everyone is born into this world utterly worthless, spiritually dead, and worthy of nothing but damnation. The mystery of the gospel is that Jesus came to save worthless souls. This is the very essence of the gospel!!! We gain our worth only by being incorporated into him by the Holy Spirit.

The image of God does not de facto make us worthy. The demons are much more in the image of God than we are: spirit beings, rational, moral agents, freewill, and so on. Do you suggest the demons are worthy?
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« Reply #30 on: October 28, 2007, 12:20:32 PM »

In Genesis may be read "So God created man in his image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them."  I know of no placer in the Scriptures where it is written that demons are 'more in the image of God'.  May one ask on what you base this assertion please?

Also, since it is stated in the Gospel that God love the world and that is why He sent His Son, your declaring all of humanity "utterly worthless" would not seem to go along with how the Creator of All Things looks on His creation.

I am familiar with the Scriptures. Is there any particular translation that you hold to be better than others so that one may look at what you are interpreting? Thank you.

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« Reply #31 on: October 28, 2007, 12:22:52 PM »

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Everyone who has been baptized in the name of the Trinity is a Christian.
You know good and well that this is not what your own Byzantine church historically believed. To be frank, its utter nonsense, and worthy of the worse condemnation by whatever sound hierarchs remain in your Communion. Do you realize the implications? It means that people who have been baptized and claim to be Christian [I guess as their ancesteral heritage, I dont know what they mean] but who dont even believe in the existence of a personal God are Christians.
Codswhollop. You really should get your facts straight before you start spouting personal opinions as though they were historical facts and realities. The Orthodox Church has always recognised the Baptisms of those baptized in the Name of the Holy Trinity and has received them by Chrisimation only. The Seventh Canon of the Second Ecumenical Council says:
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Those who from heresy turn to orthodoxy, and to the portion of those who are being saved, we receive according to the following method and custom:  Arians, and Macedonians, and Sabbatians, and Novatians, who call themselves Cathari or Aristori, and Quarto-decimans or Tetradites, and Apollinarians, we receive, upon their giving a written renunciation [of their errors] and anathematize every heresy which is not in accordance with the Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church of God.  Thereupon, they are first sealed or anointed with the holy oil upon the forehead, eyes, nostrils, mouth, and ears; and when we seal them, we say, “The Seal of the gift of the Holy Ghost.” 
And the Canon goes on to explain that those who were recieved from heresy by Baptism were those who had not been baptized in the Name of the Holy Trinity:
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But Eunomians, who are baptized with only one immersion, and Montanists, who are here called Phrygians, and Sabellians, who teach the identity of Father and Son, and do sundry other mischievous things, and [the partisans of] all other heresies—for there are many such here, particularly among those who come from the country of the Galatians:—all these, when they desire to turn to orthodoxy, we receive as heathen.  On the first day we make them Christians; on the second, catechumens; on the third, we exorcise them by breathing thrice in their face and ears; and thus we instruct them and oblige them to spend some time in the Church, and to hear the Scriptures; and then we baptize them.


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« Reply #32 on: October 28, 2007, 12:30:19 PM »

And if you only refer to people who purportedly believe in the veracity of the Scriptures, think of all the millions of people out there who even go to Sunday preacher lectures, and yet dont bother to pray more than five minutes a day.

One wonders at how you are so aware of the devotional life of millions upon millions of other people... Undecided 

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I assure you that Baptists or Presbyterians who usually only say some external prayers before meals and before bed do not have the Spirit. Rather they are living totally devoid of almighty God. If you dont know what I mean then I desparately feel for you.

Do you *know* many Baptists or Presbyterians so closely that you *know* their inner life and devotions? Who are you and how did God appoint you to make declarations of doom against other human beings, most of whom I submit you have no personal knowledge of at all.  This is projection on other people of the OP's own personal opinions as far as can be told as well as, I'm sorry, more Cheap Righteousness.  Sad

Or is it a troll?  I don't know. 

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« Reply #33 on: October 28, 2007, 01:01:22 PM »


You know good and well that this is not what your own Byzantine church historically believed. To be frank, its utter nonsense, and worthy of the worse condemnation by whatever sound hierarchs remain in your Communion. Do you realize the implications? It means that people who have been baptized and claim to be Christian [I guess as their ancesteral heritage, I dont know what they mean] but who dont even believe in the existence of a personal God are Christians. This is the situation of about 40% of Europe right now. And if you only refer to people who purportedly believe in the veracity of the Scriptures, think of all the millions of people out there who even go to Sunday preacher lectures, and yet dont bother to pray more than five minutes a day. Are they Christians? Absolutely not!! A Christian is literally an "Anointed One", one who has been baptized in the Holy Spirit and Fire, who lives mystically IN Christ. He has become a fully functional spirit being seated in the heavenlies. But you think mere water is sufficient and that the indwelling of the Holy Spirit is not necessary??? I assure you that Baptists or Presbyterians who usually only say some external prayers before meals and before bed do not have the Spirit. Rather they are living totally devoid of almighty God. If you dont know what I mean then I desparately feel for you.

Pathofsolitude, I only repeated what I heard from Orthodox priests. The Church certainly does teach that there are problems with those who are influenced by heretic teachings. Yet, we have no right to judge them and say that they aren't Christians.

I think Salpy said it all very well (thanks, Salpy), and others did, too.
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« Reply #34 on: October 28, 2007, 01:13:05 PM »

Pathofsolitude,

When I saw your posts on this thread, I was immediately reminded of today's reading from the Gospel in Mass, Luke 18:9-14:

He also told this parable to some who trusted in themselves that they were righteous, and treated others with contempt: "Two men went up into the temple to pray, one a Pharisee and the other a tax collector. The Pharisee,  standing by himself, prayed thus: 'God, I thank you that I am not like other men, extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even like this tax collector. I fast twice a week; I give tithes of all that I get.' But the tax collector, standing far off, would not even lift up his eyes to heaven, but beat his breast, saying, 'God, be merciful to me, a sinner!' I tell you, this man went down to his house justified, rather than the other. For everyone who exalts himself will be humbled, but the one who humbles himself will be exalted."


To this lesson, we best take heed.
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« Reply #35 on: October 28, 2007, 01:35:56 PM »

The Orthodox Church has always recognised the Baptisms of those baptized in the Name of the Holy Trinity and has received them by Chrisimation only.

I really wish I didn't have to quibble with this, but I must. Some EO jurisdictions receive converts only by Baptism, not Chrismation, and if Baptisms have always been recognized by the Orthodox Church, it seems that many Orthodox don't agree. Many here, it seems, see Baptism in other communions as not a real baptism but an empty shell that is filled via economia if the the person is received by chrismation in an EO Church. Of course, for some even economia is not sufficient, and another Baptism should be performed.

I wish what you said were true, but it seems rather a matter of opinion.  To be honest, this was one of the things that troubled me about Orthodoxy back when I was seeking. Undecided
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« Reply #36 on: October 28, 2007, 02:03:22 PM »

I really wish I didn't have to quibble with this, but I must. Some EO jurisdictions receive converts only by Baptism, not Chrismation, and if Baptisms have always been recognized by the Orthodox Church, it seems that many Orthodox don't agree. Many here, it seems, see Baptism in other communions as not a real baptism but an empty shell that is filled via economia if the the person is received by chrismation in an EO Church. Of course, for some even economia is not sufficient, and another Baptism should be performed.

I wish what you said were true, but it seems rather a matter of opinion.  To be honest, this was one of the things that troubled me about Orthodoxy back when I was seeking. Undecided

I actually agree with you on this, Lubeltri. I think ozgeorge has made an uncharacteristic mistake in his retort, quoting a canon from the Second Ecumenical Council (when the Church could really be considered pre-divided) in an out of time context.
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« Reply #37 on: October 28, 2007, 03:35:52 PM »

edifying stuff!  Roll Eyes

Profoundly so. 
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« Reply #38 on: October 28, 2007, 04:51:03 PM »

Everyone is born into this world utterly worthless, spiritually dead, and worthy of nothing but damnation.
I must be reading the wrong Bible.  Last time I checked...
"God saw all he had made, and indeed it was very good." (Genesis 1:31)

Spiritually dead, maybe but certainly not utterly worthless and worthy of nothing but damnation.
"For this is how God loved the world: he gave his only Son, so that everyone who believes in him may not perish but may have eternal life." (John 3:16)
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« Reply #39 on: October 28, 2007, 05:23:45 PM »

Pathofsolitude,

When I saw your posts on this thread, I was immediately reminded of today's reading from the Gospel in Mass, Luke 18:9-14:

He also told this parable to some who trusted in themselves that they were righteous, and treated others with contempt: "Two men went up into the temple to pray, one a Pharisee and the other a tax collector. The Pharisee,  standing by himself, prayed thus: 'God, I thank you that I am not like other men, extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even like this tax collector. I fast twice a week; I give tithes of all that I get.' But the tax collector, standing far off, would not even lift up his eyes to heaven, but beat his breast, saying, 'God, be merciful to me, a sinner!' I tell you, this man went down to his house justified, rather than the other. For everyone who exalts himself will be humbled, but the one who humbles himself will be exalted."


To this lesson, we best take heed.

Reminds me of a story our former priest used to tell of a small group that was studying that passage.  When finished, one of them started off the prayer with, "We thank you, Lord, that we are not like the Pharisee..."  Tongue  Father went on to point out that in those stories, we're not supposed to identify with the good guy.
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« Reply #40 on: October 28, 2007, 05:45:58 PM »

I'm not going to try to respond to everything said. Really I didnt even start this thread!

Anyways. The mystery of the gospel is that God loves the unworthy! Unworthy = worthless. I am by nature worthlessly depraved and unworthy of the love of God. Scripture clearly says this. Only when he bestows his love into us via the transformation by the Holy Spirit do we become worthy.

Another point. Scripture says over and over again that the Lord God of Israel hates sinners and wants to destroy them. You may not like this fact. But take your complaints up with the Scriptures and not with me! In fact the Lord Jesus told us that he will punish them forever by throwing them into a burning trashpit to be tormented by demons. I want to add a crucial distinction to help you reconcile this with the love of God: God hates them as sinners but loves them as his creatures. And of course ultimately his love for sinners is greater than his hatred of them. And we must have the exact same perspective as God.





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« Reply #41 on: October 28, 2007, 05:55:51 PM »

I must be reading the wrong Bible.  Last time I checked...
"God saw all he had made, and indeed it was very good." (Genesis 1:31)

Spiritually dead, maybe but certainly not utterly worthless and worthy of nothing but damnation.
"For this is how God loved the world: he gave his only Son, so that everyone who believes in him may not perish but may have eternal life." (John 3:16)

Are you suggesting that the state of sinners' souls is "very good"?? That would have to be the logical implication to your arguement if you hold me by this verse. Actually God did not create sinners. They made themselves that way by depriving themselves of the divine life. Nonetheless they are still materially good specifically as creatures of God. And so is the devil. But I doubt you would say that the devil is very good, eh? Who knows though, there are a lot of optimists on this forum.
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« Reply #42 on: October 28, 2007, 06:08:20 PM »

I'm not going to try to respond to everything said. Really I didnt even start this thread!

Anyways. The mystery of the gospel is that God loves the unworthy! Unworthy = worthless. I am by nature worthlessly depraved and unworthy of the love of God. Scripture clearly says this. Only when he bestows his love into us via the transformation by the Holy Spirit do we become worthy.

I find it ironic that you've said such things about Protestants when your words sound very much like those of a Protestant, especially of the Reformed kind. Ever hear of total depravity? A Protestant idea, through and through. Also, what you say about God hating not just sins but sinners themselves---once again, that sounds like something (some!) Calvinists would say when talking about appeasing God's wrath through Christ's cloak of imputed righteousness.

But then other Protestant distinctives inflame your own righteous anger. Perhaps you would be at home in Jansenism.  Wink

Whatever you believe, friend, do you not think that such angry generalizations about 99% of Protestants going to "burn" are perhaps not said in the right spirit of love? We certainly would like to see the Protestants formally join the Church, but don't you think we could catch more flies with honey? God's mercy is beyond our estimation---we would do well to leave the judgment to God, where it belongs.
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« Reply #43 on: October 28, 2007, 06:14:17 PM »

Reminds me of a story our former priest used to tell of a small group that was studying that passage.  When finished, one of them started off the prayer with, "We thank you, Lord, that we are not like the Pharisee..."  Tongue  Father went on to point out that in those stories, we're not supposed to identify with the good guy.

Great story! If it's okay with you, I'll tell it to Father Peter at my parish so he can relate it during his homily the next time this passage shows up in the lectionary.
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« Reply #44 on: October 28, 2007, 06:18:31 PM »

I find it ironic that you've said such things about Protestants when your words sound very much like those of a Protestant, especially of the Reformed kind. Ever hear of total depravity? A Protestant idea, through and through. Also, what you say about God hating not just sins but sinners themselves---once again, that sounds like something (some!) Calvinists would say when talking about appeasing God's wrath through Christ's cloak of imputed righteousness.

But then other Protestant distinctives inflame your own righteous anger. Perhaps you would be at home in Jansenism.  Wink

Whatever you believe, friend, do you not think that such angry generalizations about 99% of Protestants going to "burn" are perhaps not said in the right spirit of love? We certainly would like to see the Protestants formally join the Church, but don't you think we could catch more flies with honey? God's mercy is beyond our estimation---we would do well to leave the judgment to God, where it belongs.

I agree with Luberti. Although I am not a tremendously erudite theologian, I have spent some time, before re-discovering Orthodoxy, in a Presbyterian church, and I, too, recognize the influence of the Augustinian/Calvinian concept of total depravity in the writings of our new forum colleague, Pathofsolitude. This concept is absolutely not Orthodox as far as I know.
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