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Author Topic: British Royal Family and Orthodoxy?  (Read 31792 times) Average Rating: 0
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« on: October 25, 2007, 10:43:09 PM »

Forgive me if this has already been discussed or this is something that everyone already knows!

I have just recently found out about the Royal Family and how there is a connection with Orthodoxy. Prince Phillip is paternally Greek, and born on Corfu. He was an actual Orthodox Christian until his Marriage to Elizabeth II, where he had to drop all previous titles and convert to Anglicanism. Now however, I am seeimg some stuff on the internet about how he never really abondonded Orthodoxy and the converison was merely ceremonial. These claims are backed up by the fact that he can still be seen in public crossing himself the Orthodox way.

But heres something interesting... rumours have been flocking around in the 90s of Prince Charles' possible conversion or interest in Orthodoxy. I found a link with something interesting on there...claiming there to be proof of a trip to Mount Athos in 2002. http://www.orthodoxengland.org.uk/hrh.htm

So I dont know, I'm just wondering if anyone else on this board can tell me something more about all this, I find it interesting and for some reason it makes me happy to know Orthodoxy has some existance in Britain, especially within the Royal Family!
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« Reply #1 on: October 25, 2007, 10:47:02 PM »

Well, if the Prince is flirting with Orthodoxy, he will have to give up more than most do.  Legally, in order to wear the crown, he must be an Anglican; if he renounces the state religion, he renounces his birthright.
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« Reply #2 on: October 25, 2007, 10:56:46 PM »

Considering Prince Charles' numerous visits and "pilgramges" to Mt. Athos as well as the charity he established to keep Athos' beauty preserved, it wouldn't surprise me if he were doing more than flirting with Orthdoxy especially when one sees the numerous ties the House of Windsor has with the Greek royal family, besides Prince Philip.  However, I'm sure that he wouldn't want to abandon his claim to the crown of England for this.  The only heir that did this since the Act of Settlement of 1708 was George VI who abdicated to marry his Catholic fiancee.
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« Reply #3 on: October 25, 2007, 11:06:42 PM »

Couldn't he change the law once he is crowned?
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« Reply #4 on: October 25, 2007, 11:07:41 PM »

Couldn't he change the law once he is crowned?

That would require an Act of Parliament!
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« Reply #5 on: October 25, 2007, 11:11:46 PM »

the converison was merely ceremonial. 
  Which is nothing new or unusual and has been done for over a 1000 years with royal marriages.  Seems like these "conversions" just come with the crown.  Makes me wonder if the respective churches just accept it as an act of state?
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« Reply #6 on: October 25, 2007, 11:14:50 PM »

Both houses or just the Commons, since the Lords don't really seem to have any power save what flavour tea be served to visitors to Windsor? Smiley
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« Reply #7 on: October 25, 2007, 11:28:00 PM »

http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk_news/story/0,3604,1214522,00.html

Wow theres alot of this stuff on the internet, I'm surprised I ddint come across it much earlier.

Quote
Has Prince Charles found his true spiritual home on a Greek rock?


Visits spark claims of royal's commitment to Orthodoxy

Helena Smith in Athens
Wednesday May 12, 2004
The Guardian


On Monday night a resplendent yacht docked at the watery entrance to the world's only monastic republic. A middle-aged man, followed by two bodyguards, stepped on to the jetty of the peninsula in northern Greece and into the "state" known variously as Mount Athos, Aghio Oros and the Holy Mount.
A few monks in black robes and pillar-box hats stood waiting, but, under orders to keep the identity of this particular pilgrim secret, it was a reception without fanfare. Their guest - clean-shaven in contrast to the bearded clerics - was Prince Charles, on his third clandestine retreat to Athos in the past 12 months.

According to friends and associates of the prince, the future head of the Church of England has become enamoured of the Orthodox faith to the point that he has adorned a section of his home at Highgrove with prized Byzantine icons. Many are believed to originate from the Mount, the Orthodox world's holiest site.

"There is no question that the British royal is Orthodox in his heart," confided one Athonite monk, making a rare trip outside the remote republic. "Sadly, he is very constrained by his position."

Athos, they say, encapsulates Charles's profound admiration for tradition, ancient wisdom and a divine natural order - even if it has maintained a ban on women since AD1060.

Women are still forbidden from going within 500 metres of the monks' republic. Yellow signs along the shores of the 400-square-mile peninsula shoo away "female intruders", despite growing calls within the EU to have the ban lifted. For the nearly 2,000 monks who have devoted their lives to shunning sexual desire through prayer, the Virgin Mary is the only acceptable female presence.

The prince, like his friend, the composer Sir John Tavener, who converted to Greek Orthodoxy in 1977, is said to be especially drawn to the Orthodox church's rugged spirituality. Orthodox faithful are allowed to marry up to three times.

Not since the Stuarts has an heir to the throne taken such an intellectual interest in religion. For years Charles, who assumes the title of Defender of the Faith when he becomes king, has displayed an unprecedented interest in denominations as divergent as Islam and Buddhism.

But his regular meetings with Ephraim, the abbot of Vatopedion - his adopted monastery on the Mount - have helped fuel speculation that the prince is being personally instructed in eastern Christianity, even if it is fiercely denied by courtiers.

The Cypriot-born abbot is said to be a frequent visitor to Highgrove.

Witnesses say that when the prince arrived in Athos days after the death of Princess Diana almost seven years ago, it was Ephraim who induced him to join the faith. Closeted in a chamber alone with the abbot, Charles is believed to have made a "spiritual commitment" to Christian Orthodoxy.

"What people forget is that Orthodoxy is in his family," Archbishop Grigorios of Thyateira, who heads the 500,000-strong Orthodox community in Britain, told the Guardian.

"One of Charles's aunts, the Grand Duchess Eugenia, was proclaimed an Orthodox saint after she was murdered in Moscow where she had established a monastery. His paternal grandmother, Aliki [Alice], was a nun for most of her life. She spoke very good Greek and in her later years, when she came to live in London, she kept an Orthodox chapel in Buckingham Palace," added the prelate. "Aliki was a very powerful woman whom I'm sure had a very strong influence on Charles in his early years."

As the religious centre of eastern Orthodoxy, Athos is a magnet for pilgrims dedicated to the faith. Many - as testified by the growing number of monks from the EU, Canada, Australia and the US - don't look back. And among Europe's wealthy blue bloods, the luxuriant territory is seen as the perfect "detox" getaway.

But the prince's affection for a place where visitors sleep on lumpy mattresses and rise at 4am has also raised the inevitable question of whether the heir to the throne harbours desires of eventually converting to the religion.

Prince Philip, his Corfu-born father who like Charles is an honorary member of the Friends of Mount Athos, had to switch to Anglicanism from Greek Orthodoxy to marry the Queen.

In their large, decaying monasteries the clerics cherish the sort of Spartan conditions that Charles hated at Gordonstoun, his stern Scottish boarding school. Most also make no secret of their loathing of other western religions.

In the wake of last year's allegations of rape and the sale of gifts which engulfed the house of Windsor and its staff, senior Greek Orthodox priests launched a spirited defence of the prince. Many denounced the claims as an "international conspiracy" unleashed by forces bent on destroying the reluctant royal's new-found affection for the religion.

"All these attacks against Charles are doubtless due to the fact that he has embraced Orthodoxy," said His Beatitude, Anthimos, the Bishop of Alexandroupolis. "If his Orthodox beliefs were ever to be made official, people would find it very troubling."

Officially, St James's Palace says the prince's trips to the car-free Mount are a purely "personal affair".

"He goes there as a private individual, not in his official capacity as the Prince of Wales," said Kirstine Clark, a spokeswoman at the palace. "Visits are very much in his private time, so we don't issue details. What I can say is that he is interested in the architecture and spirituality of Mount Athos."

But, perhaps because he stands to become the Supreme Governor of the Church of England, Charles is also unusually sensitive about his trips to the Mount. His visits have been shrouded in secrecy. Countless Greeks with access to the community told the Guardian they were under oath never to mention them.

Government officials and diplomats are politely told not to escort the prince to Vatopedion, which he helped restore with money from the auction of his watercolours.

Attending the opening of the newly refurbished monastery last year, the prince said he hoped each of the Mount's 23 monasteries would soon regain their former splendour. He would, he said, work hard to ensure that happened
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« Reply #8 on: October 25, 2007, 11:31:12 PM »

Thanks for that article, sloga. It did my eyes good. Smiley
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« Reply #9 on: October 26, 2007, 12:37:09 AM »

Couldn't he change the law once he is crowned?

That would require an Act of Parliament!

Well, if we want to discuss the theory of Royal Perogatives (which we are if we're discussing direct intervention into English law by the monarch), the monarch technically does not require the consent of parliment in such matters, and could promulgate such a law by their own authority. Of course, this, like most Royal Perogatives, will likely never again be exercised.
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« Reply #10 on: October 26, 2007, 12:41:49 AM »

Well, if the Prince is flirting with Orthodoxy, he will have to give up more than most do.  Legally, in order to wear the crown, he must be an Anglican; if he renounces the state religion, he renounces his birthright.
Didn't Prince Charles already abdicate his eventual claim to the throne by divorcing Diana?  I thought the throne of England was closed to divorcees.
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« Reply #11 on: October 26, 2007, 01:09:52 AM »

Didn't Prince Charles already abdicate his eventual claim to the throne by divorcing Diana?  I thought the throne of England was closed to divorcees.

I've heard rumours of this too, but I don't think it's right. 
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« Reply #12 on: October 26, 2007, 01:15:32 AM »

http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk_news/story/0,3604,1214522,00.html

Wow theres alot of this stuff on the internet, I'm surprised I ddint come across it much earlier.


And as far as I can tell, every word of it is true.  Except that it should be added that Charles has an Orthodox chapel in his castle in Scotland.  And Prince Phillip is Orthodox again.
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« Reply #13 on: October 26, 2007, 01:21:00 AM »

Considering Prince Charles' numerous visits and "pilgramges" to Mt. Athos as well as the charity he established to keep Athos' beauty preserved, it wouldn't surprise me if he were doing more than flirting with Orthdoxy especially when one sees the numerous ties the House of Windsor has with the Greek royal family, besides Prince Philip.  However, I'm sure that he wouldn't want to abandon his claim to the crown of England for this.  The only heir that did this since the Act of Settlement of 1708 was George VI who abdicated to marry his Catholic fiancee.



I agree that he wouldn't abandon his desire to be "Defender of Faith" as he once said he'd like to be called.

I always found it interesting that there are rumors of Charles and Islam as well as talk of Charles and Orthodoxy. Of course, neither are likely to be true. Charles seems like the type who appreciates anything "spiritual."
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« Reply #14 on: October 26, 2007, 01:27:40 AM »

Well, if we want to discuss the theory of Royal Perogatives (which we are if we're discussing direct intervention into English law by the monarch), the monarch technically does not require the consent of parliment in such matters, and could promulgate such a law by their own authority. Of course, this, like most Royal Perogatives, will likely never again be exercised.

We did have quite a good discussion about this once upon a time... I forget which thread it was in.
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« Reply #15 on: October 26, 2007, 01:34:55 AM »

I always found it interesting that there are rumors of Charles and Islam as well as talk of Charles and Orthodoxy. Of course, neither are likely to be true. Charles seems like the type who appreciates anything "spiritual."

Hi Lubeltri.
I know for a fact that just about everything in the Guardian article is true, plus what I mentioned about Charle's Scottish castle and his father.  So I don't really know what you mean.
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« Reply #16 on: October 26, 2007, 01:51:27 AM »

Hi Lubeltri.
I know for a fact that just about everything in the Guardian article is true, plus what I mentioned about Charle's Scottish castle and his father.  So I don't really know what you mean.

I'm talking about secret conversions. Not likely to be true. Charles, like many celebrities, is into spirituality, but there is no proof that he has gone beyond that and formally converted to another church, Greek Orthodox or otherwise. If he has converted, and kept it secret to protect his position, that would be shameful. What would Jesus and all the apostles and martyrs say to that (after first a long discussion with him about Camilla, of course Wink )?
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« Reply #17 on: October 26, 2007, 05:46:59 AM »

I'm talking about secret conversions. Not likely to be true. Charles, like many celebrities, is into spirituality, but there is no proof that he has gone beyond that and formally converted to another church, Greek Orthodox or otherwise. If he has converted, and kept it secret to protect his position, that would be shameful. What would Jesus and all the apostles and martyrs say to that (after first a long discussion with him about Camilla, of course Wink )?

IIRC, many of the martyrs and saints kept their conversions secret/private, until a time of persecution or public wrongdoing against the Church rolled around.  I know that this is not an analogous situation, but at the same time it should be noted that conversion wasn't always public knowledge.
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« Reply #18 on: October 26, 2007, 06:45:54 AM »

Legally, in order to wear the crown, he must be an Anglican;
Actually, the 1710 Act of Settlement does not say that the British Monarch must be Anglican.
I believe it says that they must not be a Roman Catholic or married to one and must defend the Anglican Church. Technically, an Orthodox Christian can be the British Monarch.
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« Reply #19 on: October 26, 2007, 06:56:00 AM »

Actually, the 1710 Act of Settlement does not say that the British Monarch must be Anglican.
I believe it says that they must not be a Roman Catholic or married to one and must defend the Anglican Church. Technically, an Orthodox Christian can be the British Monarch. 

So why the change with Philip if he wasn't required to convert in order to marry Elizabeth?
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« Reply #20 on: October 26, 2007, 07:16:45 AM »

So why the change with Philip if he wasn't required to convert in order to marry Elizabeth?
I believe this was actually imposed by the Archbishop of Canterbury at the time, but not required by British Law. As the Queen's Consort, Philip cannot inherit the throne beyond his own birthright (in other words, marrying The Queen places him no closer to ascending the throne than he would be if he were not married to her). If he were not married to Her Majesty, he would still be 475th in line for succession to the throne in his own right by virtue of the fact that he is a great-great-grandson of Queen Victoria. So even if (hypothetically) the British Monarch indeed had to be Anglican, there was no need for him to convert for that reason since he is so far from the throne. And since he was not Roman Catholic, this would not have impeded his marriage to an heir to the British Throne under the 1710 Act of Settlement.
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« Reply #21 on: October 26, 2007, 07:45:29 AM »

Here is the relevant text of the 1710 Act of Settlement. (Renamed the 1700 Act of Settlement):
"And it was thereby further enacted That all and every Person and Persons that then were or afterwards should be reconciled to or shall hold Communion with the See or Church of Rome or should professe the Popish Religion or marry a Papist should be excluded and are by that Act made for ever incapable to inherit possess or enjoy the Crown and Government of this Realm"
Source: http://www.statutelaw.gov.uk/content.aspx?activeTextDocId=1565208
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« Reply #22 on: October 26, 2007, 10:42:09 AM »

Very interesting!  Thanks for the reference.

The only restriction I can think of would be that if the Regent is still technically the head of the state religion then it would create a problem.  I know that for all intents and purposes that the Archbishop of Canterbury is the leader of the Church, but if the King/Queen is still defined as  the head, then I can see why the objection to Philip (and the prohibition for Charles and his heirs) would be present.
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« Reply #23 on: October 26, 2007, 11:13:10 AM »

It's moot to me.  I think that the people of the UK should throw off their tyranny and dissolve the monarchy and the house of lords. 
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« Reply #24 on: October 26, 2007, 11:18:04 AM »

Tyranny?  Last I heard the Queen had as much desicion making power as Maid Mertle down the street.  The role of the royals nowadays is primarily social, and really nothing more. 
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« Reply #25 on: October 26, 2007, 11:29:18 AM »

It's moot to me.  I think that the people of the UK should throw off their tyranny and dissolve the monarchy and the house of lords. 

The only tyranny is found in the House of Commons which has destroyed the checks and balances that used to be imposed upon it by the House of Lords and the Crown. Unchecked power, be it held by a sovereign or the mob, is a greater threat to liberty than inherited authority.
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« Reply #26 on: October 26, 2007, 01:35:38 PM »

HM George VI died of cancer, he did not abdicate.   Lord North was Orthodox, secretly received on the Island of Napthlion.. sp?  There could be a number of secret Orthodox VIPs, but I don't think it includes Bush or Clinton Roll Eyes
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« Reply #27 on: October 26, 2007, 01:48:06 PM »

^Careful on the 'Politics', please. Innuendo counts.
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« Reply #28 on: October 26, 2007, 04:39:24 PM »

If I am correct, and my Serb Bretheren can correct me, HRH Elizabeth is the godmother of the Crown Prince of Serbia.
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« Reply #29 on: October 26, 2007, 05:58:18 PM »

I'm bigger royalty than him, he cant even speak Serbian, nor does he know his serbian history. But yes, you are correct.
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« Reply #30 on: October 26, 2007, 07:32:30 PM »

The only tyranny is found in the House of Commons which has destroyed the checks and balances that used to be imposed upon it by the House of Lords and the Crown. Unchecked power, be it held by a sovereign or the mob, is a greater threat to liberty than inherited authority.

You are so easy to bait  Tongue
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« Reply #31 on: October 26, 2007, 07:56:21 PM »

Very interesting!  Thanks for the reference.

The only restriction I can think of would be that if the Regent is still technically the head of the state religion then it would create a problem.  I know that for all intents and purposes that the Archbishop of Canterbury is the leader of the Church, but if the King/Queen is still defined as  the head, then I can see why the objection to Philip (and the prohibition for Charles and his heirs) would be present.
The title of the British Monarch is "Defender of the Faith and Supreme Governor of the Church" but that doesn't mean that they have to be Anglican. In fact, the first to ascend to the British Throne after the Act of Settlement was King George I who was not Anglican but Lutheran, thus starting the Hanoverian Line which ended with Queen Victoria. Our own Orthodox St. Elizabeth the Grand Duchess, was herself a member of the Hanoverian Line and was Lutheran before her conversion to Orthodoxy.
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« Reply #32 on: October 26, 2007, 08:11:34 PM »

You are so easy to bait  Tongue

Big surprise there Wink
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« Reply #33 on: October 26, 2007, 08:25:54 PM »

If I am correct, and my Serb Bretheren can correct me, HRH Elizabeth is the godmother of the Crown Prince Alexander of Yugoslavia.
And he is a classic example of how the 1710 Act of Settlement works. He was listed as an heir to the British Throne, however he lost this right because his first marriage was to a Roman Catholic (Princess Maria da Gloria of Orléans-Braganza). Even his subsequent divorce and re-marriage to a non-Catholic does not restore his right to the British Throne, since the Act of Settlement excludes "for ever" anyone who ever was (or was ever married to) a Roman Catholic.
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« Reply #34 on: October 26, 2007, 08:37:51 PM »

Ah, but article 3 of the Act of Settlement 1700 states: "That whosoever shall hereafter come to the Possession of this Crown shall joyn in Communion with the Church of England as by Law established"

http://www.statutelaw.gov.uk/content.aspx?activeTextDocId=1565208

Therefore, all claimants to the throne must be in the Anglican Communion.....of course it's not clear if you remove yourself from the line of succession by marrying, for exmple, an Eastern Orthodox.

Naturally, it's all a moot point if you are a Jacobite.
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« Reply #35 on: October 26, 2007, 09:07:21 PM »

The Act says that the Monarch must "be in Communion" with the Church of England. Monarchs and heirs to Thrones have received permissions from their Orthodox Bishops to receive Protestant Sacraments, and in some cases, even "ordinary" laity have. St. Raphael Hawaweeny gave permission for his flock to receive Episcopalian Sacraments in extreme circumstances in 1910 (later retracted). Prince Andrew of Greece and Denmark received permission from his Orthodox Bishop to marry both in a Lutheran Church and an Orthodox Church. All that would be required is that an Orthodox Christian Monarch receive permission from their Bishop to receive Communion in the Church of England.
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« Reply #36 on: October 27, 2007, 02:43:17 AM »

Big surprise there Wink

I'd rather die on the barricade proclaiming Liberté, Egalité, Fraternité than to live as a subject of a monarch.  You sorely disappoint, GiC (where's that scotch-irish in you?). 
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« Reply #37 on: October 28, 2007, 12:09:59 AM »

I'd rather die on the barricade proclaiming Liberté, Egalité, Fraternité than to live as a subject of a monarch.  You sorely disappoint, GiC (where's that scotch-irish in you?). 

My Scots-Irish ancestors realized that the whole Island was a lost cause and left. Wink

A monarch is by no means the best solution, but when rights are trampled, be it by a monarch or an elected parliament, la Liberté has ceased to exist. Despotism and tyranny must be opposed in every form, not only when dressed in purple. And rest assured, the scots-irish in me really doesn't have much regard for any authority, whether it wears a crown or a suit...it is all the seed of tyranny. Grin
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« Reply #38 on: October 28, 2007, 12:23:55 AM »

where's that scotch-irish in you?). 
Ahem.  Scotch is a drink mady by the Scots.  I won't hold that against you...this time. Cool  Wink
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« Reply #39 on: October 28, 2007, 12:32:18 AM »

Ahem.  Scotch is a drink mady by the Scots.  I won't hold that against you...this time. Cool  Wink
Actually, the correct name for the drink is "Scotch Whiskey" meaning "Scottish Whiskey". In polite Scottish society, persons from Scotland are "Scottish", and non-persons from Scotland are "Scotch".
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« Reply #40 on: October 28, 2007, 12:57:02 AM »

Actually, the correct name for the drink is "Scotch Whiskey" meaning "Scottish Whiskey". In polite Scottish society, persons from Scotland are "Scottish", and non-persons from Scotland are "Scotch".
Actually, in Great Britain, "Scotch" is understood to mean "whiskey that's made in Scotland" unless otherwise specified (indeed, whiskey CANNOT be labeled as Scotch unless it was made and bottled in Scotland).  And in Scottish society, polite or otherwise, a person from Scotland is known as a "Scotsman" or simply a "Scot" as well as "Scottish", depending on who is speaking and hearing, as it were.   I have this on direct authority from several Scotsman from Scotland as well as a Scots-Irishman from Ireland.  And as a Scots-Irish American myself, I've studied quite a bit on the subject.  As for a non-person, I have no idea what they're called as I've yet to meet one.  Wink
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« Reply #41 on: October 28, 2007, 01:11:32 AM »

And as a Scots-Irish American myself, I've studied quite a bit on the subject. 
Well, you obviously haven't studied it at Scotch College, Melbourne. Wink
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« Reply #42 on: October 28, 2007, 01:31:28 AM »

Well, you obviously haven't studied it at Scotch College, Melbourne. Wink
Obviously I stand corrected. Tongue  But, every Scotsman I've talked to on the subject has been quick to point out that 'Scotch' is the whiskey and very rarely used to describe anything but whiskey and I've only encountered a handfull of books using the term Scotch-Irish rather than the preferred Scots-Irish.  Perhaps your school wanted to show it's Scottish Presbyterian roots yet avoid any xenophobia by naming itself Scottish College.
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« Reply #43 on: October 28, 2007, 01:34:14 AM »

'Scotch' is the whiskey and very rarely used to describe anything but whiskey
What about Scotch Tape, Scotch Eggs, Scotch Broth, Scotch Pie?
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« Reply #44 on: October 28, 2007, 01:44:10 AM »

What about Scotch Tape, Scotch Eggs, Scotch Broth, Scotch Pie?
What about them?  As I said,
every Scotsman I've talked to on the subject has been quick to point out that 'Scotch' is the whiskey and very rarely used to describe anything but whiskey
So I suppose that either they were wrong or those products were named by non-Scots.
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« Reply #45 on: October 28, 2007, 01:45:29 AM »

What about Scotch Tape, ...
Technically, as pertains to transparent tape, Scotch® is a brand name now owned by 3M, so I don't know that this counts.  3M also owns Scotchgard® and Scotchprint®, so I don't think you can count these, either.
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« Reply #46 on: October 28, 2007, 01:45:41 AM »

What about Scotch Tape, Scotch Eggs, Scotch Broth, Scotch Pie?

And lest we forget Scotch Pine, Hop Scotch and Scotch Collie.
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« Reply #47 on: October 28, 2007, 01:46:57 AM »

^^Don't forget Butterscotch. Wink Though Scotch Pine is actually known as Scots Fir everywhere else but America and 'scotch' in Hopscotch is an old English word meaning scratch.  And the Scotch Collie?  Well, it's an American breed descended from the Great Britain breed known as a Farm Collie.  I doubt it was named by a Scot, but I could be wrong.

Regardless as to how many words and products we can come up with that has the word 'Scotch' in it, "Scots-Irish" is the [i preferred[/i] usage among those of Scottish ancestry today as the word 'Scotch' would be considered a pejorative.   
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« Reply #48 on: October 28, 2007, 02:24:51 AM »

Well, since this seems to be of such great interest Scotch, Scottish, and Scots are all proper English, though some are prefered over others depending on the context. Here's the OED discussion of the matter:

Quote
Scotch, a. and n., Also Scot’sh.
[Contracted var. of Scottish.
The three forms of the adj., Scotch, Scottish, Scots, are still current, with some difference in use, which, however, is somewhat unsettled. Down to the middle of the 16th c. the only form used in southern English was Scottish; but in the dialect of Scotland (and in that of the north of England in the 14th and 15th c.) the form was Scottis (cf. Inglis = English), subsequently contracted to Scots. So far as our quotations show, the contraction of Scottish into Scotch is not recorded before 1570 (in the compound Scotchman), though the colloquial pronunciation which it represents may well be much older; instances of Scotch cap, Scotch jig occur in 1591­99, but the adj. did not become common in literature until the second half of the 17th c. From that time until the 19th c. Scotch has been the prevailing form in England, though Scottish has always been in use as a more formal synonym. In Scotland, the authors who wrote in dialect (down to Ramsay and Fergusson early in the 18th c.) used Scots, while those who anglicized adopted the form Scottish. But before the end of the 18th c. Scotch had been adopted into the northern vernacular; it is used regularly by Burns, and subsequently by Scott; still later, it appears even in official language in the title of the ‘Scotch Education Office’. Since the mid 19th c. there has been in Scotland a growing tendency to discard this form altogether, Scottish, or less frequently Scots, being substituted. At the beginning of the 20th c., while in England Scotch was the ordinary colloquial word, the literary usage prefered Scottish in applications relating to the nation or the country at large or its institutions or characteristics. Thus it was usual to speak of ‘Scottish literature’, ‘Scottish history’, ‘the Scottish character’, ‘a Scottish lawyer’, ‘the Scottish border’. On the other hand, it would have sounded affected to say ‘a Scottish girl’, ‘a Scottish gardener.’ Although ‘the Scottish dialect’ is now the usual designation, it is seldom that Scottish is used as a n. instead of Scotch. Recent usage favours Scots in ‘Scots law’, and it is now almost universal in historical references to money, as ‘a pound Scots’.In the 20th c. the word Scotch has been falling into disuse in England as well as in Scotland, out of deference to the Scotsman’s supposed dislike of it; except for certain fixed collocations, (such as ‘Scotch mist’, ‘Scotch whisky’) Scottish (less frequently Scots) is now the usual adjective, and to designate the inhabitants of Scotland the pl. n. Scots is preferred (see Gowers/Fowler Mod. Eng. Usage (1965)).]
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« Reply #49 on: October 28, 2007, 03:43:20 AM »

And rest assured, the scots-irish in me really doesn't have much regard for any authority, whether it wears a crown or a suit...it is all the seed of tyranny. Grin

That is the GiC we all know and love.   Cool

Still, unless you can find a way to get rid of the bell curve, there will always be tyranny of the mob.  I don't see an solution to that one. 

Ahem.  Scotch is a drink mady by the Scots.  I won't hold that against you...this time. Cool  Wink

Freudian slip.  It was posted on a Friday evening after I had gotten home. 
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« Reply #50 on: October 28, 2007, 02:45:25 PM »

Actually, the correct name for the drink is "Scotch Whiskey" meaning "Scottish Whiskey".

Only if you're drinking a knockoff.  The correct name for the drink is "Scotch Whisky," not "whiskey."
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« Reply #51 on: October 28, 2007, 02:49:25 PM »

Still, unless you can find a way to get rid of the bell curve, there will always be tyranny of the mob.  I don't see an solution to that one. 

Simple, disenfranchise the mob. Wink
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« Reply #52 on: November 14, 2007, 03:56:51 PM »

A non-Scot is a sassanach.  The Scots drink Scotch Whuskey.  The OED doesn't count, its not Scottish Roll Eyes  I don't know how the Royals mix their scotch or their Orthodoxy with membership of the Scottish Rite Embarrassed
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« Reply #53 on: November 14, 2007, 08:06:52 PM »

I'm bigger royalty than him, he cant even speak Serbian, nor does he know his serbian history. But yes, you are correct.

Brate ,who is the crown prince of serbia ,,,sta mu je ime ...stashko  Cheesy
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« Reply #54 on: November 15, 2007, 01:30:48 AM »

The Scots drink Scotch Whuskey.
Whuskey?  That sounds like something only a wuss would drink.
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« Reply #55 on: November 15, 2007, 01:37:55 AM »

Whuskey?  That sounds like something only a wuss would drink.
Or someone who's been drinkin' whiskey all night. Cheesy
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« Reply #56 on: November 15, 2007, 02:09:06 AM »

Well, if the Prince is flirting with Orthodoxy, he will have to give up more than most do.  Legally, in order to wear the crown, he must be an Anglican; if he renounces the state religion, he renounces his birthright.

Forgive me please if somebody has already said this but that is not entirely accurate.

British law forbids the Monarch from being a Roman Catholic but otherwise the Monarch is free to change the state religion as was done so many times in the past especially prior to the time when the Monarch was forbidden to be a Roman Catholic.

As such, the future King is free to change his own faith and the state religion to any faith he pleases so long as it is not Roman Catholic Christianity. The Monarch may be a Jew, a Muslim, a Sikh, a Hindu or even an Orthodox Christian if this should so please.

Are you aware there is a British Orthodox Church?
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« Reply #57 on: November 15, 2007, 05:08:10 AM »

British law forbids the Monarch from being a Roman Catholic but otherwise the Monarch is free to change the state religion
This is not accurate.
The British Law which regulates the Succession of the British Throne is the Act of Settlement 1700. While it is true that under this law the Monarch must not be Roman Catholic or married to one, he or she is also required to be in Communion with the Church of England.
The Act says:
"That whosoever shall hereafter come to the Possession of this Crown shall joyn [sic] in Communion with the Church of England as by Law established"
Source: http://www.statutelaw.gov.uk/content.aspx?activeTextDocId=1565208
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« Reply #58 on: November 15, 2007, 08:09:57 AM »

ozgeorge, alright thanks for that.
So in other words as the Monarch is the head of the Church of England the Monarch simply has to enter communion with it and then command it to do whatever he wishes because he is its head.
By the way, the word "joyn" is an older spelling of "join" so it's not actually incorrect. Also, if you look in the 1611 you will find the word "ioynt" which means "joint" (in St. James I think).
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« Reply #59 on: November 15, 2007, 08:16:55 AM »

By the way, the word "joyn" is an older spelling of "join" so it's not actually incorrect.
"[sic]" doesn't mean "incorrect", it's Latin for "thus", in other words "it was written thus".
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« Reply #60 on: November 15, 2007, 08:33:39 AM »

"[sic]" doesn't mean "incorrect", it's Latin for "thus", in other words "it was written thus".

You're right again Cheesy (How about you stop being right all the time mate and let somebody else have a turn Wink?)

Just thought I should clarify that the British didn't make spelling mistakes in their own legal documents that's all Cool Forgive me if I offended you please.
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« Reply #61 on: November 15, 2007, 04:43:07 PM »

British law forbids the Monarch from being a Roman Catholic but otherwise the Monarch is free to change the state religion as was done so many times in the past especially prior to the time when the Monarch was forbidden to be a Roman Catholic.

OzGeorge has given the correction re the law, but would you please explain what you mean by the above?  When did any English King or Queen "change the state religion"  "many times"?   Huh

Quote
Are you aware there is a British Orthodox Church?

Yes, but it is afaik a fairly recent organization.  It is also related to the Coptic Churches rather then the EO.

Ebor
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« Reply #62 on: November 16, 2007, 12:18:34 AM »

I got the (false?) impression that there is an English Orthodox Church?

This website provides a lot of info about The Royal Family and Orthodoxy but also Orthodoxy in general on the isles.

http://www.orthodoxengland.org.uk/hp.htm
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« Reply #63 on: November 16, 2007, 12:31:44 AM »

There is the British Orthodox Church under the Coptic Orthodox Church of Alexandria. I do not think the site above is referring to it.

As to that site, I'll let someone here more versed in western Orthodoxy to comment, if indeed that is what it represents (unclear).
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« Reply #64 on: November 16, 2007, 12:46:57 AM »

Huh? stashko
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« Reply #65 on: November 17, 2007, 09:43:28 AM »

But does religion really matter to British Royalty? Or even to the people anymore?  Back in the day, you had to support your king and the nobles that supported him, or be found a traitor.  Or you were a commoner with no say in the matter.  Nowadays, no one in the Royal Palace is holding any political clout, and the noble class is nothing more than a tradition.  Why would it matter when the people don't even attend the C of E  in great numbers any more?  Last I checked, you had to pay to get into Canterbury Cathedral because it can't support itself by the number of tithing parishoners.   
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« Reply #66 on: November 18, 2007, 07:38:05 PM »

But does religion really matter to British Royalty? Or even to the people anymore?  Back in the day, you had to support your king and the nobles that supported him, or be found a traitor.  Or you were a commoner with no say in the matter.  Nowadays, no one in the Royal Palace is holding any political clout, and the noble class is nothing more than a tradition.  Why would it matter when the people don't even attend the C of E  in great numbers any more?  Last I checked, you had to pay to get into Canterbury Cathedral because it can't support itself by the number of tithing parishoners.   

One does not have to pay to attend services at Canterbury Cathedral.  It is people who are sightseeing/tourists who are asked to pay.  It is due to a huge many centuries old cathedral needing a lot of help in the maintenance department.  There is a drive on to try and raise 50 million pounds to repair and refurbish things such as the windows and the roof.

http://www.canterbury-cathedral.org/visit/information.aspx
http://www.canterbury-cathedral.org/fundraising/index.aspx

I would also suggest that religion matters to members of the royal family and nobility on a personal level rather then on a public or political one.

Ebor
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« Reply #67 on: November 18, 2007, 07:42:54 PM »

I got the (false?) impression that there is an English Orthodox Church?

This website provides a lot of info about The Royal Family and Orthodoxy but also Orthodoxy in general on the isles.

http://www.orthodoxengland.org.uk/hp.htm

The website above is, the last I knew, from a parish that is part of ROCOR.

The "British Orthodox Church" is Coptic
http://www.britishorthodox.org/

iirc a person who used to post here Peter Farrington is/was with this Church.

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« Reply #68 on: November 18, 2007, 07:54:19 PM »

Nowadays, no one in the Royal Palace is holding any political clout,
I remember that in the 1970s the Queen exercised her sovereign power through her Governor General in Australia and removed Goff Whitlam as Prime Minister of Australia. It gave the Aussies quite a shock to find she could do that!   Grin
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« Reply #69 on: November 18, 2007, 08:26:41 PM »

Last I checked, you had to pay to get into Canterbury Cathedral because it can't support itself by the number of tithing parishoners.

Many of the well known tourist churches in Russia charge admission.  Every monastery that I visited also charged admission.  Then in the churches that don't charge admission there is a commercial  bonanza going on in the narathax.  When the protestants who were part of my group pointed out the tale of the money changers, there really wasn't anything I could say.   
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« Reply #70 on: November 18, 2007, 08:31:27 PM »

Not exactly analogous situations.
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« Reply #71 on: November 18, 2007, 08:44:19 PM »

Indeed, not at all.  It is, after all, being done by graceless heretics in Canterbury, whereas if it is done in Holy Rus' - well then it is a different matter. 
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« Reply #72 on: November 18, 2007, 08:48:14 PM »

Many of the well known tourist churches in Russia charge admission.  Every monastery that I visited also charged admission.  Then in the churches that don't charge admission there is a commercial  bonanza going on in the narathax.  When the protestants who were part of my group pointed out the tale of the money changers, there really wasn't anything I could say.   
Too bad you didn't know about James River Assembly of God- complete with Starbucks and giftshop!
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« Reply #73 on: November 18, 2007, 08:53:42 PM »

Too bad you didn't know about James River Assembly of God- complete with Starbucks and giftshop!

Somehow I didn't think retorting, "Your church sucks, too" was the best way to endear them to Orthodoxy.  Besides, I had bigger fish to fry... "No, they aren't worshiping the icons..."
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« Reply #74 on: November 18, 2007, 08:57:02 PM »

Indeed, not at all.  It is, after all, being done by graceless heretics in Canterbury, whereas if it is done in Holy Rus' - well then it is a different matter. 

Good old Nektarios, spoiling for an argument again.

What has your interjection have to do with this thread's topic?
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« Reply #75 on: November 18, 2007, 09:31:38 PM »

Quote
One does not have to pay to attend services at Canterbury Cathedral.  It is people who are sightseeing/tourists who are asked to pay.  It is due to a huge many centuries old cathedral needing a lot of help in the maintenance department.  There is a drive on to try and raise 50 million pounds to repair and refurbish things such as the windows and the roof.

I stand corrected.  But if that's the case, why not ask Parliment to come up with the money for it?  It is, after all, a national treasure as well as a religious one.

Quote
I would also suggest that religion matters to members of the royal family and nobility on a personal level rather then on a public or political one.

Perhaps your right.  Never meant to infer that it didn't.  But the question I was asking is do the people really care?  to mean something to British Royalty is one thing, but I think a better phrased question would be "Would it be considered a scandal by the British People if one of their kings/queens was of another religious persuasion than Anglican?"  I remember Charles II, though Head of the Anglican Church was himself a Roman Catholic, and recieved last rites on his Death bed.  He kept the peace, if memory serves correct, between his official and religious duties.

Forgive me if I have offended.
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« Reply #76 on: November 18, 2007, 10:04:50 PM »

I stand corrected.  But if that's the case, why not ask Parliment to come up with the money for it?  It is, after all, a national treasure as well as a religious one.

I don't know what the Cathedral Chapter has done regarding asking the government for money for repairs. But 50 million pounds is a lot of money and not found under every bush.  Wink

Quote
Perhaps your right.  Never meant to infer that it didn't.  But the question I was asking is do the people really care?  to mean something to British Royalty is one thing, but I think a better phrased question would be "Would it be considered a scandal by the British People if one of their kings/queens was of another religious persuasion than Anglican?" 

I think that it would matter to some of the British populace.  It would go against custom and Tradition for one thing.  I can think of other possiblities.

Quote
I remember Charles II, though Head of the Anglican Church was himself a Roman Catholic, and recieved last rites on his Death bed.  He kept the peace, if memory serves correct, between his official and religious duties.

According to both the official British government site on the royal family and the biography of Charles II by Ronald Hutton which I don't have a copy of to hand unfortunately to give you a precise quote, it was on his deathbed that Charles became RC and there is some question as to whether he was conscious or really committed to it.

http://www.royal.gov.uk/output/Page92.asp

and Charles II: King of England, Scotland, and Ireland by Ronald Hutton. (the same scholar who has written about pagan religions in ancient britain).

He was not RC during his years of rule.  And it was the succession of his brother, James, who had converted to RC that lead to the "Glorious Revolution" of 1688, James' removal from the throne, the acension of William and Mary and after them Queen Anne etc etc.

Quote
Forgive me if I have offended.

I need to work on my writing if I'm giving the impression that I'm offended when I offer a counter idea!  I"m very sorry to give you that idea. I'm not offended at all.  I try very hard to *not* take offense with postings and other peoples' ideas and writing. 

Thinking differently is not the same as being offended.  Smiley Wink

Ebor
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« Reply #77 on: November 18, 2007, 10:11:22 PM »

Quote
I need to work on my writing if I'm giving the impression that I'm offended when I offer a counter idea!  I"m very sorry to give you that idea. I'm not offended at all.  I try very hard to *not* take offense with postings and other peoples' ideas and writing



Not at all.  It's my writing style that I tend to be carefull of.  Pride, even if unintended, is one of my worst sins. Smiley
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« Reply #78 on: November 25, 2007, 03:52:07 AM »

Too bad you didn't know about James River Assembly of God- complete with Starbucks and giftshop!

Or Willow Creek.  (I'd say what I call it, but it might be against forum rules). Mc+

My ex wife started going there (from my divorce lawyer, it seems that's typical).  I found out because the boys started refering to their mother's church as "the church where we don't pray."

Some time after this, my older son asked if his friend Ben (a follower of Rome) had icons.  When I said yes, that others had icons, not just us, but some don't, like grandma's (my mother, Evangelical Lutheran).  He then brought up that "mama's church doesn't have icons. Or even a cross" and then asked why.  "Because they think it makes people sad," I replied (the founder of WC said that polls showed people didn't like crosses, and someone said "the cross is a downer.").

My son thought for a moment, then shook his head and said, "Tsk! They call that a church.  it's not a church, it's a mall."

Last year, they decided that because Christmas was on a Sunday, they wouldn't have services.  My 7 year old's response?  "That's dumb."

I joked that perhaps this year they'd cancel Easter services, because it falls on a Sunday this year  Tongue.

My sons told me that they did have Easter services, and it was all dark.  "Why?" I asked.  "Because it's not really a church.  It's more a place where we sit and watch people" was the reply.

And I'd like to ask those televagelists (all protestant, that I've seen) who hath appointed them God's IRS and collector of tithes?
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« Reply #79 on: November 25, 2007, 04:10:42 AM »

Actually, the 1710 Act of Settlement does not say that the British Monarch must be Anglican.
I believe it says that they must not be a Roman Catholic or married to one and must defend the Anglican Church. Technically, an Orthodox Christian can be the British Monarch.

Perhaps now we see the sour grapes from which Lub's whine is pressed? Tongue
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« Reply #80 on: November 25, 2007, 04:17:49 AM »

The title of the British Monarch is "Defender of the Faith and Supreme Governor of the Church" but that doesn't mean that they have to be Anglican. In fact, the first to ascend to the British Throne after the Act of Settlement was King George I who was not Anglican but Lutheran, thus starting the Hanoverian Line which ended with Queen Victoria. Our own Orthodox St. Elizabeth the Grand Duchess, was herself a member of the Hanoverian Line and was Lutheran before her conversion to Orthodoxy.

In present day Anglicanism, who CAN'T be Anglican (oh, yeah, those under Rome).

Charles ascends the throne, appoints an WRO for Archbishop of Canteberry and the time for reformin' will start rolling in.
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« Reply #81 on: November 25, 2007, 04:24:09 AM »

I'd rather die on the barricade proclaiming Liberté, Egalité, Fraternité than to live as a subject of a monarch.  You sorely disappoint, GiC (where's that scotch-irish in you?). 

yeah, the Jacobins were sooo much better than the ancien regime.

And of course the Bolsheviks established democracy after getting rid of that tyrannical czar.

And the Islamic Republic ushered in prosperity and happiness when it exiled the shah.....
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« Reply #82 on: November 25, 2007, 04:26:53 AM »

Actually, in Great Britain, "Scotch" is understood to mean "whiskey that's made in Scotland" unless otherwise specified (indeed, whiskey CANNOT be labeled as Scotch unless it was made and bottled in Scotland).  And in Scottish society, polite or otherwise, a person from Scotland is known as a "Scotsman" or simply a "Scot" as well as "Scottish", depending on who is speaking and hearing, as it were.   I have this on direct authority from several Scotsman from Scotland as well as a Scots-Irishman from Ireland.  And as a Scots-Irish American myself, I've studied quite a bit on the subject.  As for a non-person, I have no idea what they're called as I've yet to meet one.  Wink

Scots-Irish?  Then what's up with the Arabic?

Well, you obviously haven't studied it at Scotch College, Melbourne. Wink

Dare I ask, what do they teach there? Tongue

Well, since this seems to be of such great interest Scotch, Scottish, and Scots are all proper English, though some are prefered over others depending on the context. Here's the OED discussion of the matter:


Of course.  Let the English define who or what a Scot is.
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« Reply #83 on: November 26, 2007, 11:56:07 AM »

In present day Anglicanism, who CAN'T be Anglican (oh, yeah, those under Rome).

 Huh

Quote
Charles ascends the throne, appoints an WRO for Archbishop of Canteberry and the time for reformin' will start rolling in.

Erm, that's not how 'tis done.

Ebor
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« Reply #84 on: November 27, 2007, 09:08:06 PM »

I've been to Willow Creek.  "Mall" is a good term.  I was impressed at the time, but knew I could never go to a church so big.  I'd get lost among all those people!  Amazing how, among all the things I noticed about that church (and wrote about in e-mails to friends), I didn't notice the lack of prayer or a cross.  I'm sure I'd notice it now.


Or Willow Creek.  (I'd say what I call it, but it might be against forum rules). Mc+

My ex wife started going there (from my divorce lawyer, it seems that's typical).  I found out because the boys started refering to their mother's church as "the church where we don't pray."

Some time after this, my older son asked if his friend Ben (a follower of Rome) had icons.  When I said yes, that others had icons, not just us, but some don't, like grandma's (my mother, Evangelical Lutheran).  He then brought up that "mama's church doesn't have icons. Or even a cross" and then asked why.  "Because they think it makes people sad," I replied (the founder of WC said that polls showed people didn't like crosses, and someone said "the cross is a downer.").

My son thought for a moment, then shook his head and said, "Tsk! They call that a church.  it's not a church, it's a mall."

Last year, they decided that because Christmas was on a Sunday, they wouldn't have services.  My 7 year old's response?  "That's dumb."

I joked that perhaps this year they'd cancel Easter services, because it falls on a Sunday this year  Tongue.

My sons told me that they did have Easter services, and it was all dark.  "Why?" I asked.  "Because it's not really a church.  It's more a place where we sit and watch people" was the reply.

And I'd like to ask those televagelists (all protestant, that I've seen) who hath appointed them God's IRS and collector of tithes?
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