Author Topic: The 7 Sacraments  (Read 2432 times)

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Offline sohma_hatori

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The 7 Sacraments
« on: October 23, 2007, 11:53:27 PM »
Hello Everyone..

Im just curios..
Apparently the 7 Sacraments of the Orthodox and Catholic Churches are somewhat the same in some manner..
Id like to ask.. If for example, A Catholic receives the Sacrament of Confirmation (Chrismation in Orthodoxy) does that make the person's receving of the Sacrament, er invalid since he is not receving it in an Orthodox way? Same question goes to the other sacraments,  do they become invalid too?

Thanks...
« Last Edit: October 23, 2007, 11:54:22 PM by sohma_hatori »
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Offline lubeltri

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Re: The 7 Sacraments
« Reply #1 on: October 24, 2007, 08:52:43 AM »
Well, many EO consider Catholic sacraments to be not sacraments at all, so the question would be moot.

Offline Αριστοκλής

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Re: The 7 Sacraments
« Reply #2 on: October 24, 2007, 08:56:41 AM »
Good point; we don't know what they are.
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Offline lubeltri

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Re: The 7 Sacraments
« Reply #3 on: October 24, 2007, 09:09:25 AM »
Indeed, as far as many EO are concerned, Pope Benedict might as well be elevating this at the consecration:  :D



In other words, there are no mysteries (sacraments is a Western term) outside the EO Church. 

Offline ozgeorge

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Re: The 7 Sacraments
« Reply #4 on: October 24, 2007, 09:19:03 AM »
Apparently the 7 Sacraments of the Orthodox and Catholic Churches are somewhat the same in some manner..
Well, now that you mention it, not a few theologians would say that the Orthodox Church has more than 7 Sacraments. For example, the Great Blessing of the Waters on the Feast of Theophany could also be considered a Sacrament.
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Offline pensateomnia

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Re: The 7 Sacraments
« Reply #5 on: October 24, 2007, 10:27:20 AM »
If for example, A Catholic receives the Sacrament of Confirmation (Chrismation in Orthodoxy) does that make the person's receving of the Sacrament, er invalid since he is not receving it in an Orthodox way?

Invalid according to whom? Why would a Catholic receiving a Sacrament in the Catholic Church consider this Sacrament invalid? Why would an Orthodox person's opinion on the validity or invalidity of a Chrismation taking place outside of his Church be a matter of concern?

In general, the Orthodox Church has very little official to say about the "validity" or "invalidity" of sacraments OTHER THAN baptism outside of Her boundaries. And, in general, the "validity" of baptism in various Christian Churches outside of the Orthodox Church is recognized as "valid" in so far as a person baptized in those Churches need not be (re)-baptized when entering the Orthodox Church.
« Last Edit: October 24, 2007, 10:41:52 AM by pensateomnia »
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Offline Keble

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Re: The 7 Sacraments
« Reply #6 on: October 24, 2007, 10:57:08 AM »
Well, now that you mention it, not a few theologians would say that the Orthodox Church has more than 7 Sacraments. For example, the Great Blessing of the Waters on the Feast of Theophany could also be considered a Sacrament.

Actually, I think in the RC system of things, that blessing would be considered a sacramental.

Offline Amdetsion

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Re: The 7 Sacraments
« Reply #7 on: October 24, 2007, 03:47:05 PM »
Invalid according to whom? Why would a Catholic receiving a Sacrament in the Catholic Church consider this Sacrament invalid? Why would an Orthodox person's opinion on the validity or invalidity of a Chrismation taking place outside of his Church be a matter of concern?

In general, the Orthodox Church has very little official to say about the "validity" or "invalidity" of sacraments OTHER THAN baptism outside of Her boundaries. And, in general, the "validity" of baptism in various Christian Churches outside of the Orthodox Church is recognized as "valid" in so far as a person baptized in those Churches need not be (re)-baptized when entering the Orthodox Church.

This whole statement is very questionable.

The Orthodox Church IS the Church. AS such we have 'everything' to say about the sacraments of God.

The 7 sacraments albeit more than 'one' are in 'holiness' 'one'. They cannot be seperated in anyway. One does not exist without the other. To be heretical against baptism makes you heretical against ALL 7 sacraments. You cannot be heretical on Matrimony and orthodox on lets say ordination.

The 7 scaraments are not a list of church acitivities or practices that we take or leave as we choose.

Its all or nothing.



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Offline Tzimis

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Re: The 7 Sacraments
« Reply #8 on: October 24, 2007, 04:07:08 PM »
Lighting a candle or kissing an icon can also be considered a sacrament. I really don't think there are just seven in Orthodoxy. Maybe seven major ones.
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Offline Fr. George

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Re: The 7 Sacraments
« Reply #9 on: October 24, 2007, 04:14:00 PM »
This whole statement is very questionable.

The Orthodox Church IS the Church. AS such we have 'everything' to say about the sacraments of God.

The 7 sacraments albeit more than 'one' are in 'holiness' 'one'. They cannot be seperated in anyway. One does not exist without the other. To be heretical against baptism makes you heretical against ALL 7 sacraments. You cannot be heretical on Matrimony and orthodox on lets say ordination.

The 7 scaraments are not a list of church acitivities or practices that we take or leave as we choose.

Its all or nothing. 

You don't get it - the Orthodox Church has only spoken of the "validiy" of baptism outside its borders because the other sacraments cannot be received without it.  And the question of validity only matters if someone is trying to enter into the Orthodox Church.

And when we don't speak of what others call sacraments (i.e. sacraments of Roman Catholicism), it is because they don't concern us.
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Offline lubeltri

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Re: The 7 Sacraments
« Reply #10 on: October 24, 2007, 05:36:46 PM »
Lighting a candle or kissing an icon can also be considered a sacrament. I really don't think there are just seven in Orthodoxy. Maybe seven major ones.

That's the distinction we make. We have the seven sacraments, and then things like kissing icons or holy water or making the sign of the cross are called sacramentals.

Offline Keble

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Re: The 7 Sacraments
« Reply #11 on: October 24, 2007, 09:16:24 PM »
The 7 sacraments albeit more than 'one' are in 'holiness' 'one'. They cannot be separated in anyway.

Clearly that is untrue, since they can be separated in time and space and by what minister may administer them. The hyperbole is really quite unhelpful.

Offline Amdetsion

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Re: The 7 Sacraments
« Reply #12 on: October 24, 2007, 11:24:56 PM »
You don't get it - the Orthodox Church has only spoken of the "validiy" of baptism outside its borders because the other sacraments cannot be received without it.  And the question of validity only matters if someone is trying to enter into the Orthodox Church.

And when we don't speak of what others call sacraments (i.e. sacraments of Roman Catholicism), it is because they don't concern us.

OK!

I get what you are saying.

Maybe you can get Keble on board.

You seem to be saying that baptism is the gateway so to speak to all other sacraments. This indicates that all the sacraments are interconnected. If we are not correctly baptised than all other sacraments are corrupted.
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Offline Amdetsion

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Re: The 7 Sacraments
« Reply #13 on: October 24, 2007, 11:38:59 PM »
Clearly that is untrue, since they can be separated in time and space and by what minister may administer them. The hyperbole is really quite unhelpful.


Sorry Keble.

I am not sure about what you mean when you say "seperate in time and space".

We are subject to the baptism and what is derived from it which is the blessings of the church in the other 6 sacraments.

I am aware that some "ministers" pick and choose from the sacraments and applies them as they deem fit. But I am not speaking of this kind of minister.

The Holy Church is not the subject of a minister. The Holy Church keeps all 7 sacraments as supreme right of the faithful.

The Church cannot provide matrimony to a person who wants to maintain or receive the sacrament outside church doctrine even if that person has had a correct baptism. Some ministers may oblige the person but the action is highly questionable.

Orthodoxy is not questionable.
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Offline ozgeorge

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Re: The 7 Sacraments
« Reply #14 on: October 25, 2007, 06:30:22 AM »
The Holy Church keeps all 7 sacraments as supreme right of the faithful.
But we do not belong to the Faithful until we receive one of the Sacraments (Baptism). Baptism is a Sacrament reserved soley for those outside of the Church.
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Offline pensateomnia

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Re: The 7 Sacraments
« Reply #15 on: October 25, 2007, 09:51:38 AM »
You don't get it - the Orthodox Church has only spoken of the "validiy" of baptism outside its borders...

Yeah. For example, there are many agreed statements on Baptism. Of course, they aren't binding or anything, but they are there nonetheless -- and some quite strong in conclusion. The first that comes to mind is Baptism and "Sacramental Economy" from the North American Orthodox-Catholic Theological Consultation.

http://scoba.us/resources/orthodox-catholic/baptism-sacramentaleconomy.html

Quote
C. The Results of our Investigation: "We Confess One Baptism"

The Orthodox and Catholic members of our Consultation acknowledge, in both of our traditions, a common teaching and a common faith in one baptism, despite some variations in practice which, we believe, do not affect the substance of the mystery. We are therefore moved to declare that we also recognize each other's baptism as one and the same. This recognition has obvious ecclesiological consequences. The Church is itself both the milieu and the effect of baptism, and is not of our making. This recognition requires each side of our dialogue to acknowledge an ecclesial reality in the other, however much we may regard their way of living the Church's reality as flawed or incomplete. In our common reality of baptism, we discover the foundation of our dialogue, as well as the force and urgency of the Lord Jesus' prayer "that all may be one." Here, finally, is the certain basis for the modern use of the phrase, "sister churches." At the same time, since some are unwilling to accept this mutual recognition of baptism with all its consequences, the following investigation and explanation seems necessary.

Regardless of what you think about that particular part of the document, it goes on to give an excellent historical overview of the Orthodox practices for reception of various schismatic and heretical groups throughout the ages. Just go to section II. Problems in the Mutual Recognition of Baptism.
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Offline lubeltri

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Re: The 7 Sacraments
« Reply #16 on: October 25, 2007, 09:56:48 AM »
Yeah. For example, there are many agreed statements on Baptism. Of course, they aren't binding or anything, but they are there nonetheless -- and some quite strong in conclusion. The first that comes to mind is Baptism and "Sacramental Economy" from the North American Orthodox-Catholic Theological Consultation.

http://scoba.us/resources/orthodox-catholic/baptism-sacramentaleconomy.html

Regardless of what you think about that particular part of the document, it goes on to give an excellent historical overview of the Orthodox practices for reception of various schismatic and heretical groups throughout the ages. Just go to section II. Problems in the Mutual Recognition of Baptism.

How nice to know that at least some of you guys accept me as a baptized Christian.  :)

Offline Amdetsion

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Re: The 7 Sacraments
« Reply #17 on: October 25, 2007, 10:31:52 AM »
But we do not belong to the Faithful until we receive one of the Sacraments (Baptism). Baptism is a Sacrament reserved soley for those outside of the Church.

Interesting...

Never looked at this way.

I agree.

The other 6 are the extremities of of the 1st which is baptism and not "seperate" rights apart from each other to be administered as needed.
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Offline Amdetsion

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Re: The 7 Sacraments
« Reply #18 on: October 25, 2007, 10:36:13 AM »
How nice to know that at least some of you guys accept me as a baptized Christian.  :)

I never heard that Roman Catholics are not baptised christians within orthodox circles ahve traveled in.

I have heard it said by some orthodox persons however.
"ETHIOPIA shall soon stretch out her hands unto God".....Psalm 68:vs 31

"Are ye not as children of the ETHIOPIANS unto me, O children of Israel"?....Amos 9: vs 7