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sohma_hatori
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« on: October 20, 2007, 12:51:06 AM »

Hi everyone!

I just want to be certain.. Is it really true that Martin Luther, founder of the Lutheran Church returned and reconciled with the Roman Catholic Church before he died and that Lutherans are just denying it? I meant no offense or anything...


Thanks...
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« Reply #1 on: October 20, 2007, 03:32:42 PM »

That one I haven't heard.  I have heard other weird things about him, like how he allowed one of his followers to marry a second wife without divorcing his first.  I think there are things out there about him that you don't normally hear, but which may or may not be true.  I would think he was too opposed to the Catholic Church to have been reconciled to it, but you never know. 
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« Reply #2 on: October 20, 2007, 04:22:50 PM »

Hi everyone!

I just want to be certain.. Is it really true that Martin Luther, founder of the Lutheran Church returned and reconciled with the Roman Catholic Church before he died and that Lutherans are just denying it? I meant no offense or anything...


Thanks...
I'd never heard that, either.
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« Reply #3 on: October 20, 2007, 04:24:35 PM »

I'd never heard that, either.
Nor I, either.
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« Reply #4 on: October 20, 2007, 04:45:28 PM »

I would be thinking that on his way back to repentance, they would have already prepared a place for him to be burned at the stake.
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« Reply #5 on: October 20, 2007, 05:52:58 PM »

There's no way Luther ever did such a thing. He was too stubborn and would never have recanted his attacks against the evil of the papacy at the time. He wouldn't even recognize those other "reformers" who denied the body and blood in the sacrament as Christian, it's highly unlikely that he would reconcile with an institution that defended indulgences and all the other errors that were even worse.
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« Reply #6 on: October 20, 2007, 09:23:00 PM »

Actually, I just got this detail from a Catholic Magazine called "Know the Truth: A Publication to defend the Catholic Faith"...
When I read about the section concerning Protestantism, thats where I got it.
Politicaly this could still be possible. What Id imagine is this. He reconciledand the Catholic Church welcomed him to destroy the foundationof his reformed church and that they didnt burn him so as to change the people outlook of the Church. Isnt this possible too?
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« Reply #7 on: October 20, 2007, 10:16:23 PM »

Actually, I just got this detail from a Catholic Magazine called "Know the Truth: A Publication to defend the Catholic Faith"...
Not to imply that I know anything, but the title alone indicates that this magazine is most probably a polemic publication.  As a general rule, such polemic materials are often notorious for spinning or blatantly misrepresenting the facts.
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« Reply #8 on: October 21, 2007, 01:01:27 AM »

Not to imply that I know anything, but the title alone indicates that this magazine is most probably a polemic publication.  As a general rule, such polemic materials are often notorious for spinning or blatantly misrepresenting the facts.

Good point... But about the possibility of it.. What do you think?
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« Reply #9 on: October 21, 2007, 08:41:45 AM »

Well, if you are willing to believe this section from the Wikipedia article, the claim is certainly untrue.
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« Reply #10 on: October 21, 2007, 10:27:09 AM »

Grew up Lutheran and this certainly wasn't part of my catechism.  If it were true, I think that fact would have proclaimed loudly by prominent Catholic sources.  They've had 400 years, so I think the message would have been out there long before this one publication picked it up.  I'm German too, and if he was anything like my family, concession is a virtue that comes far below pig-headed stubborness.
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« Reply #11 on: October 21, 2007, 11:47:29 PM »

the article provided much

Thanks..
At least now I know that magazine had some untrue info in it..

God bless all..
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« Reply #12 on: October 22, 2007, 07:51:03 PM »

Our critics provide us with more nourishment than those who flatter us. Those who reject criticism end up having to subsist on a diet of worms. Wink
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« Reply #13 on: October 22, 2007, 11:03:31 PM »

Our critics provide us with more nourishment than those who flatter us. Those who reject criticism end up having to subsist on a diet of worms. Wink
ROTFLMAO! Cheesy  Very good pun, George.
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« Reply #14 on: October 22, 2007, 11:52:43 PM »

Quote
Our critics provide us with more nourishment than those who flatter us. Those who reject criticism end up having to subsist on a diet of worms.


And apparantly adhere to an Ausk-ward confession. Wink
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« Reply #15 on: October 23, 2007, 06:13:33 AM »

Very good pun, George.
I'm so glad somebody got it!
« Last Edit: October 23, 2007, 06:14:21 AM by ozgeorge » Logged

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« Reply #16 on: October 23, 2007, 07:48:45 PM »

LOL
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« Reply #17 on: October 24, 2007, 05:40:25 PM »

Hi everyone!

I just want to be certain.. Is it really true that Martin Luther, founder of the Lutheran Church returned and reconciled with the Roman Catholic Church before he died and that Lutherans are just denying it? I meant no offense or anything...


Thanks...

No, it is not true.  However, Luther's close friend Philipp Melanchthon did seem to diverge from some of Luther's views.  There is some belief that Melanchthon was in close contact with a Greek Orthodox monk during the later parts of his life, and many of his Synergistic beliefs (where he differed from Luther and the hard core Lutherans) came from Greek Orthodoxy (or Eastern Catholicism as Luther would call it).  He was considered by some (like my father, a conservative Missouri Synod Lutheran) as a "crypto Catholic".  Then again, my father considered me such, too, even when I served as an elder in the Wisconsin Synod Lutheran Church.  Before the fall of Constantinople, several theologians from Melanchthon's faction were in contact with Patriarch Jeramias.  Had the fall not happened when it did, it is possible that many Lutherans would have converted to Orthodoxy since not all Lutherans wanted to form a new Church.  I have always had the impression that many of the early Lutherans did not consider the Lutheran Church as a "new" Church, but rather a more pure expression of the early Catholic Church.  Probably not much different than the East / West split.  Both splits were solidified by war, where the Roman Church showed its true colors. 
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« Reply #18 on: October 24, 2007, 07:34:43 PM »

No, it is not true.  However, Luther's close friend Philipp Melanchthon did seem to diverge from some of Luther's views.  There is some belief that Melanchthon was in close contact with a Greek Orthodox monk during the later parts of his life, and many of his Synergistic beliefs (where he differed from Luther and the hard core Lutherans) came from Greek Orthodoxy (or Eastern Catholicism as Luther would call it).  He was considered by some (like my father, a conservative Missouri Synod Lutheran) as a "crypto Catholic".  Then again, my father considered me such, too, even when I served as an elder in the Wisconsin Synod Lutheran Church.  Before the fall of Constantinople, several theologians from Melanchthon's faction were in contact with Patriarch Jeramias.  Had the fall not happened when it did, it is possible that many Lutherans would have converted to Orthodoxy since not all Lutherans wanted to form a new Church.  I have always had the impression that many of the early Lutherans did not consider the Lutheran Church as a "new" Church, but rather a more pure expression of the early Catholic Church.  Probably not much different than the East / West split.  Both splits were solidified by war, where the Roman Church showed its true colors. 

Melancthon's group, called the Gnesio-Lutherans or Philippists (after their leader) did have some serious clashes with the Chemnitz faction regarding the deity of Christ and the "communication of attributes."  It was finally resolved because of Chemnitz' influence due to his in depth reading of Eastern Theologians, most particulary St. John of Damascus.  It was probably this conflict which brought Melancthon into contact with the Eastern Fathers and from there his desire to make contact with the Patriarch of Constantinople which was carried out by a monk.  Whether this particular monk actually made contact with the Patriarch and delivered a Greek translation of the Augsburg confession is very doubtful. However, Melancthon's successors, Jacob Andreae and Martin Crusius, both scholars at the University of Tubingen pressed for contact and actually had a dialogue (consisting of 3 letters with responses) with Patriarch Jeremias II.  This dialogue is available and definitely worth reading.  It was edited by Fr. George Mastrontonis and is entitled Augsuburg and Constantinople.
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« Reply #19 on: October 25, 2007, 01:44:00 PM »

Melancthon's group, called the Gnesio-Lutherans or Philippists (after their leader) did have some serious clashes with the Chemnitz faction regarding the deity of Christ and the "communication of attributes."  It was finally resolved because of Chemnitz' influence due to his in depth reading of Eastern Theologians, most particularly St. John of Damascus.  It was probably this conflict which brought Melancthon into contact with the Eastern Fathers and from there his desire to make contact with the Patriarch of Constantinople which was carried out by a monk.  Whether this particular monk actually made contact with the Patriarch and delivered a Greek translation of the Augsburg confession is very doubtful. However, Melancthon's successors, Jacob Andreae and Martin Crusius, both scholars at the University of Tubingen pressed for contact and actually had a dialogue (consisting of 3 letters with responses) with Patriarch Jeremias II.  This dialogue is available and definitely worth reading.  It was edited by Fr. George Mastrontonis and is entitled Augsuburg and Constantinople.
I was not sure if the contact had been made while Melancthon was alive or after.  Thanks for clearing this up.  My father used to tell me a story about how Luther prayed to God for Melancthon's healing when he was quite sick (which was common).  Luther later stated that he regretted that God answered his prayer since Melancthon "reverted back to Catholicism".  This accusation was pretty common among the more radical elements of Lutherans even until recently (my father graduated from Concordia, Springfield in the 1970's during the troubles with ELIM).  It is interesting that the "super conservative" faction in Springfield were perhaps not as "Lutheran" as many of the early Lutherans.  More interesting is that the son of one of the theologians of the "liberal" St. Louis Seminary of that time period is the Russian Orthodox priest that brought me into the ROCOR.  I often tease some of my Lutheran friends telling them that the "Reformation" was only a partial reformation.  If they were truly reformed, the Lutherans would have become Orthodox. 
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« Reply #20 on: October 25, 2007, 01:47:23 PM »

  If they were truly reformed, the Lutherans would have become Orthodox. 

I've tried this tactic before, but it really won't work.  As Alexie Khomiakov said (paraphrasing) Lutherans and Catholics are two sides of the same coin.  Their theology is laregly bound up in legalisms and juridical beliefs.  Lutherans insist that the apostles and the early Church Fathers were exactly like they are now.  It's both funny and sad.
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« Reply #21 on: October 25, 2007, 01:56:34 PM »

Might help here:

http://www.angelfire.com/ny4/djw/lutheran-orthodox.html
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