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« on: October 18, 2007, 10:37:14 AM »

My wife and I were recently on vacation in Italy. In Bologna, all visitors to the Basilica of San Petronio (the city's patron saint whose tomb is also inside) had to leave backpacks, suitcases, large bags, etc. outside before entering. There was an armed security guard who enforced the rule. The reason for all this? Threats by terrorists against the basilica. The basilica has a large fresco of the Last Judgment done hundreds of years ago that depicts Mohammed in Hell, including his name beside his image. Needless to say, the fresco will stay, so security had to be added. A sign of the times. (If this should have been posted somewhere else, please let me know, or move the thread. Thanks.)
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« Reply #1 on: October 18, 2007, 10:47:20 AM »

Sigh. I fear that in coming decades we will have to bear the destruction by Islamists of some of our most treasured and historic churches and sacred art.
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« Reply #2 on: October 18, 2007, 11:03:04 AM »

And we thought the Danish cartoons episode was scary...
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« Reply #3 on: October 18, 2007, 11:13:34 AM »

And we thought the Danish cartoons episode was scary...

Oh yeah.  How many monasteries have icons that depict Mohammed attacking the Church with the devil?  How many people have icons of the Ark of Orthodoxy (which also depicts the pope)?

It's a good thing I'm not easily alarmed, or else this would really worry me.  I pray that the Church remain safe!
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« Reply #4 on: October 18, 2007, 11:24:55 AM »

Whats the deal with all the Islamic violence? Is it really that big of a thing that they are depicting Mohammad in hell or whatnot.... Seriously, lots of shows and strips have made fun of Jesus and you don't see the RC or OC members going and killing anyone. Its so stupid. Maybe if they would sit down with scholars and actually UNDERSTAND the Koran verses, we'd all be alot happier. Geeze.....

-Nick
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« Reply #5 on: October 18, 2007, 11:57:11 AM »

Whats the deal with all the Islamic violence? 

Thank you, Jerry Seinfeld.

Is it really that big of a thing that they are depicting Mohammad in hell or whatnot.... Seriously, lots of shows and strips have made fun of Jesus and you don't see the RC or OC members going and killing anyone. Its so stupid. Maybe if they would sit down with scholars and actually UNDERSTAND the Koran verses, we'd all be alot happier. Geeze..... 

Things would indeed be so much easier if they just decided to play nice; if they don't like the depictions, then don't associate with us (just as we often don't associate with those who make fun of the Lord).  Give peace a chance.
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« Reply #6 on: October 18, 2007, 12:02:16 PM »

Thank you, Jerry Seinfeld.
Cheesy LOL

Give peace a chance.
Thank you, John Lennon.  Wink
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« Reply #7 on: October 18, 2007, 12:10:01 PM »

I don't know that resorting to violence is necessarily an Islamic thing; I think it has more to do with the fact that uneducated imams with a little authority are able to whip up a frenzy among equally uneducated followers.  When the whole cartoon thing went down, it was mainly the poorer, uneducated countries that seemed to produce the most calls for violence.  The more moderate (educated) the country, the less likely we are to hear "Death to (insert perceived evil of choice)", rather than a call for an apology and dialogue.  I'm thinking of Indonesia now, but I'm sure there were others.
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« Reply #8 on: October 18, 2007, 12:13:11 PM »

I don't know that resorting to violence is necessarily an Islamic thing; I think it has more to do with the fact that uneducated imams with a little authority are able to whip up a frenzy among equally uneducated followers.  When the whole cartoon thing went down, it was mainly the poorer, uneducated countries that seemed to produce the most calls for violence.  The more moderate (educated) the country, the less likely we are to hear "Death to (insert perceived evil of choice)", rather than a call for an apology and dialogue.  I'm thinking of Indonesia now, but I'm sure there were others.

If we had more moderate Muslim countries.... Boy, how the world would be different.

Moderation in Islam is the only hope for peace.
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« Reply #9 on: October 18, 2007, 12:20:59 PM »

Moderation in Islam is the only hope for peace.
Moderation?  Hmm.  I would've said Christ. Grin  I think moderation will only come about with education and exposure.  I remember reading a story of a North Korean upon seeing a South Korean for the first time.  He was suprised to see that he looked like him and ate the same foods as him rather than looking like a devil and eating North Korean children.  I just hope the exposure they get of us isn't Madonna and Brittney. Shocked
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« Reply #10 on: October 18, 2007, 12:30:08 PM »

Moderation?  Hmm.  I would've said Christ. Grin 

Christ is the Way, Truth, and Light.  Unfortunately, He is also a magnet for violence, be it from opponents (Romans), friends (Judas), and others (demons, Satan).  Christ will bring them salvation and hope, but peace?  Who knows.

I think moderation will only come about with education and exposure.  I remember reading a story of a North Korean upon seeing a South Korean for the first time.  He was suprised to see that he looked like him and ate the same foods as him rather than looking like a devil and eating North Korean children.  I just hope the exposure they get of us isn't Madonna and Brittney. Shocked

You know that Madonna and Brittney is what they see, besides war coverage.  They don't get a picture of everyday, run-of-the-mill America, just as we don't get a picture of everyday, run-of-the-mill (insert Muslim area here).
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« Reply #11 on: October 18, 2007, 03:19:14 PM »

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Moderation in Islam is the only hope for peace.

How is moderation defined ? Like any religion, its believers would try to dig the fundamentals and return back to its roots to be able to establish a link to the unaltered "truth" and the religion in its purest form. Muslims are no different in that regard, and the more they are faced with the reality of their religion, they have the chance to abondon it (and be killed in the process) or adhere more to it. 

The purest form of Islam, as rdocumented in their authentic books and the most representative sources of how Islam was understood by the prophet and his contemporaries, is what Bin Laden practices. The man is true to his beliefs and convictions and sincere to apply the laws of islam following the footsteps of the Prophet and the Sa7abah. A discussion between a "terrorist" and "moderate" in which they use islamic sources to back up their conviction is always a victory of the terrorist because he can back up his belief by undisputed resources.

For a muslim to be peaceful towards others needs a misrepresentation of Islam and to "protestantize" Islam in terms of coming up with new ideas and interpretations that are alien to Islam.

 
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« Reply #12 on: October 18, 2007, 03:26:06 PM »

Tell it like it is, Stavro!
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« Reply #13 on: October 18, 2007, 03:37:51 PM »

For a muslim to be peaceful towards others needs a misrepresentation of Islam and to "protestantize" Islam in terms of coming up with new ideas and interpretations that are alien to Islam.

Which is probably the best case scenario, modify the underlying assumptions of the religion to be consonant with the ideals of the western enlightenment, then reinvent the rest of the religion to fall in line with these new ideals. There are some good people from Islamic states trying to do just this, hopefully they can spread their ideals to the rest of the Islamic world.
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« Reply #14 on: October 18, 2007, 03:40:38 PM »

The purest form of Islam, as rdocumented in their authentic books and the most representative sources of how Islam was understood by the prophet and his contemporaries, is what Bin Laden practices. The man is true to his beliefs and convictions and sincere to apply the laws of islam following the footsteps of the Prophet and the Sa7abah. A discussion between a "terrorist" and "moderate" in which they use islamic sources to back up their conviction is always a victory of the terrorist because he can back up his belief by undisputed resources.

For a muslim to be peaceful towards others needs a misrepresentation of Islam and to "protestantize" Islam in terms of coming up with new ideas and interpretations that are alien to Islam.
No disrespect Stavro, but I must disagree with you re: Bin Laden.  He is true to his beliefs and convictions for sure, but this doesn't mean said beliefs and convictions are universally accepted by all Muslims.  In fact, they're not.  The truth is, Bin Laden belongs to an ulra-conservative fundementalist group called Wahabbism (which most Sa'udi's belong to).  Also, within Sunni Islam alone, there are 4 separate schools of thought (madhhab), with each one having it's own separate take on how to interpret the Sahaba (the companions of Muhammad).  They arrive at their conclusions through 'Ijma or consenses within their school of thought and then with the larger sphere of Sunnism.  The Qur'an and Sunnah (sayings and doings of Muhammad and where the term Sunni comes from) cannot simply be read at face value but must go through something called asbab ul nadhul, a type of hermenuetics if you will.  So, as a result, we will see Muslims who condemn and condone Bin Laden.  Thankfully, the majority condemns his ridiculous throwback interpretations.  As for my education theory, let me illustrate what I mean.  There is a well known hadith (saying) attributed to Muhammad about how camel urine (I'm not making this up) cures a multitude of diseases.  Now obviously, a Western educated doctor hopefully knows better.  If you look at Indonesian and Malaysian Muslims, they're relatively peaceful people (with the notably exception of the province of Bandah Aceh).  The reason isn't because they don't take their religion seriously, but rather because of the way they interpret it.  And this is because Indonesians have a relatively good education system. 

Don't get me wrong, I'm not defending Islam here, I just don't think it wise to over-generalize.
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« Reply #15 on: October 18, 2007, 03:43:08 PM »

How is moderation defined ?

For me, in this case?  I've stated it other times (most notably a few years ago, when we were in the middle of a different Christianity-Islam discussion), but your description from the last sentence is satisfactory.

For a muslim to be peaceful towards others needs a misrepresentation of Islam and to "protestantize" Islam in terms of coming up with new ideas and interpretations that are alien to Islam.
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« Reply #16 on: October 18, 2007, 03:44:32 PM »

Thankfully, the majority condemns his ridiculous throwback interpretations. 

Except that his "throwback" interpretations seem to be just that: throwbacks to how Mohammed interpreted it.  I don't think there can be any more "authentic" interpretation of Islam than Mohammed's, since he's the one who made it up.
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« Reply #17 on: October 18, 2007, 04:06:44 PM »

Except that his "throwback" interpretations seem to be just that: throwbacks to how Mohammed interpreted it.  I don't think there can be any more "authentic" interpretation of Islam than Mohammed's, since he's the one who made it up.
When I said 'throwback' I meant that he limits how much 21st century he'll incorporate; no Western style clothing, no utensils, using fire to heat with... He literally wants to live as Muhammad lived yet I'm fairly certain that if Muhammad were around today, he'd be using all the creature comforts because he supposedly also said, "Seek knowledge even unto China"- meaning he wasn't afraid of new technology or education.  And as far as an "authentic" interpretation of Islam, well, you'd be hard pressed to find an agreement as to what that means between all the Muslims.  "Authentic" to Bin Laden is totally different than "authentic" to the President of Al-Azar University in Egypt (the oldest Islamic university in the world) which is something altogether different to "authentic" in Azerbaijan.  Just sayin'...
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« Reply #18 on: October 19, 2007, 02:51:29 PM »

Except that his "throwback" interpretations seem to be just that: throwbacks to how Mohammed interpreted it.  I don't think there can be any more "authentic" interpretation of Islam than Mohammed's, since he's the one who made it up.

"And he said unto them, Render therefore unto Caesar the things which be Caesar's, and unto God the things which be God's."


Interpretation A:
Caesar represents all secular authority. 

Conclusion A:
Christians must pay taxes in the societies in which they live.

Interpretation B:
Caesar refers simply to the Roman Emperors.  The Roman Empire has long been destroyed.

Conclusion B:
Christians are under no obligation whatsoever to support the states in which they live. 


Both are "throwbacks" so to speak.  Method A is the more traditional Islamic methodology found in the four schools of Sunni Jurisprudence that Jibrail mentioned (save maybe the Hanbalis).  Method B is newer approaches taken by Wahhabist and Salafists and can (and has) been argued is a very superficial and unorthodox approach to Islam.  I think there is a tendency here to impose our bias from Orthodoxy on other religions - there has to be one "true" form of the religion.  Once we have determined whichever sect we, as outsiders, have decided is most traditional, we look at them as the only real Muslims and ignore all the rest (even if all the rest are the vast majority of Muslims). 
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« Reply #19 on: October 19, 2007, 04:42:33 PM »

Quote
No disrespect Stavro, but I must disagree with you re: Bin Laden.  He is true to his beliefs and convictions for sure, but this doesn't mean said beliefs and convictions are universally accepted by all Muslims.  In fact, they're not.  The truth is, Bin Laden belongs to an ulra-conservative fundementalist group called Wahabbism (which most Sa'udi's belong to).

Wahabism refers to Ibn Temia, the Saudi cleric of the 14th century, as their ultmiate teacher and source of interpretation. Ibn Abd El Wahab was a student of Ibn Tamia's writings and ideology. Ibn Temia, who lived in conditions similar to that of the 7th century, represented the pure form of Islam as represented by the prophet himself according to the available sources like El-Serah, the interpretations of Tabari, Imam Ahmed, Ibn Hanbal, the Haddith ..etc. It is not the customs or the table manners that are of particular interest to the interest of the society, but it is the aggression and rejection of a peaceful political coexistence that Islam teaches and that Ibn Temia dug centuries after.

Long before Ibn temia existed or Wahabists were able to advance their agenda, since the time of the prophet, Islam was violent in nature based on Muhamed's teachings itself. I do not believe that anybody can claim more authority than Muhamed on understanding the revelation of the religion.

The jurisdictions also existed long before Wahabism existed, and they were not different in their treatment of the non-muslim societies and individuals. Wahabism did not invent, it just confirmed what was existing. We might study Islam from historical perspective, to understand the political scene more and the ambitions of Quresh to dominate the arabic penninsula, and it will help us understand the sources of revelatin and its reasons better (asbab el-nezul) which was mostly tailored to solve a personal dipsute or to support a political move. The origins of Islam as a christian heresy is also very interesting, yet all that to us non-muslims is science but to Muslim it is something totally different. It is God's word and command that they are asked to live.

When a multi-layered capsulated veiled Muslim woman proclaims in all courage that she has the right to kill a Swedish comic writer for his ridicule of Muhamed, she is observing the Haddith that gave her and every muslim this right. When an apostate is killed, it is because the Haddith asks for that. When a woman is beaten, it is because a clear Quran verse encouraged that. When signed treaties are abrogated between muslim countries and non-muslim entities, they are following the footsteps of Muhamed who has abrogated his treaties with the Jews and exterminated them, canceled his treaty with the "infidels" of Mekka and attacked them. In general, any muslim follows the principle of "tekia" that allows him to lie, deceive and conspire against the country that he lives in (as the case with the Western country), to the degree of denying his faith, as long as he is a minority and weak.

As far as the West is concerned, the muslims follow the excellent recipe of Sayed Qutb in his cultural changing book "Ma3alem 3ala El-6aree2", that identified the weakness of the muslims as unsurmountable and that the domination of the West has to be achieved by other means than the sword of the 7th century. He build his way up through a strong foundation of islamic dogmas and principles until he suggests the use of the Western systems to dominate the West. Immigrate, breed, take over the majority of population, use democracy to vote muslims in government, and dominate the West.

They are doing an excellent job in this regard.

Quote
Thankfully, the majority condemns his ridiculous throwback interpretations.
 

I did not experience anything else but sympathy for the case of Bin Laden by muslims. They are true to their beliefs. Even if we disagree on whether Wahabism represents Islam or not, the Arabic media is dominated by fanatic channels that cannot produce but hate to the West.

So, if moderate muslims exist, they have no connection to the true Islam as practiced by Muhamed. 

Quote
There is a well known hadith (saying) attributed to Muhammad about how camel urine (I'm not making this up) cures a multitude of diseases.  Now obviously, a Western educated doctor hopefully knows better.

I am well aware of this haddith, and the rest of the haddith about the wings of the flie and el-7agamah and the urine of the prophet himself. There is now a frenzy called "prohpetic medicine" that is now institutionalized in Arabic medical schools and that follows no medical principle except the haddith and Quran. While it might sound funny to non-muslims, to muslims it is simply their religion that they have to follow without discrimination.

There is no misinterpretation here. There is also no misinterpretation in the "pleasure-marriage" teachings or "the lennding out of wives" that has been practiced by the Prophet himself. The "breast-feeding of adult men" again was oracticed by Aisha, the Prophet's wife and based on a valid and authentic Haddith.

Quote
If you look at Indonesian and Malaysian Muslims, they're relatively peaceful people (with the notably exception of the province of Bandah Aceh).  The reason isn't because they don't take their religion seriously, but rather because of the way they interpret it. 


They do not speak arabic and they have no access to the TRUE islamic sources. They might interpret it as they like, and that might be what Cleveland and GiC were refering to. But the majority of problems are coming from the arabic speaking population, and they have arabic schools set in Germany, France, US, Canada. Misinterpretation will become more difficult.


     
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« Reply #20 on: October 19, 2007, 04:52:53 PM »

Stavro is right on target here.
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« Reply #21 on: October 19, 2007, 05:49:26 PM »

Stavro is right on target here.

Nothing like validating an argument with a cheerleader. 

Long before Ibn temia existed or Wahabists were able to advance their agenda, since the time of the prophet, Islam was violent in nature based on Muhamed's teachings itself. I do not believe that anybody can claim more authority than Muhamed on understanding the revelation of the religion.

The violence of Muhamed can easily be contextualized in the same manner that modern Christians mostly ignore violence from the Old Testament.  Or for that matter how most modern EO ignore the violence of their saints like Justinian.
 
Quote
So, if moderate muslims exist, they have no connection to the true Islam as practiced by Muhamed.

This whole idea that there is a "true" Islam is pointless unless you are yourself an Islamic believer.  What you see as the true message of Islam as someone from an Arab nation is very different than what non-Arabs take from Islam.  Who are we to say that the Central Asian Sufi poets and mystics emphasized the wrong parts of Islam (i.e if you read someone like Rumi, his justifications for his beliefs come from authentic Islamic sources) and that today's terrorists the correct parts of Islam?  You might as well say that American snake handlers are the authentic expression of Christianity since they "tread on vipers" and Orthodox monasticism is a fraud since they don't. 

I don't really disagree with much of what you are saying.  I just think that you are applying it too broadly.  For instance, say we agree Orthodoxy is the "true" form of Christianity.  That's nice and all, but it is essentially irrelevant when looking at Christian populations around the world since Orthodoxy doesn't even make up 25% of the world's Christians.  You are expressing shock that some protestant group in China doesn't follows the latest directives of an Orthodox bishop from Egypt.  The same applies with Islam, simply because you seem to think that Arabic Islam is the true form, the reality is that most of the world's Muslims aren't Arabs, the modern revival of Wahhabism and Salafism has been orchestrated by Saudis (and not indigenous forces) and that many Muslims flat out don't care about the pet issues of Arab Muslims. 
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« Reply #22 on: October 20, 2007, 04:34:47 PM »

I don't know if I said this before, and I forgot where this Church is located, but I visited a medieval Coptic Church with really old icons that depicted in a very bottom part a small fiery drawing of hell and in it was a building with a crescent moon.  It was on every icon of that Church.  Very subtle, and it shows you the consistent view of the militant religion of Islam way before Wahhabism.

Even in the late seventh century, not long after Mohammed died, the Coptic bishop John of Nikiu who witnesses the Islamic invasion of Egypt by Amr ibn el Aas (some people spell that last name "Ass," which pretty much describes his personality), the true Islamic ideals consistent with the Wahabist terrorist beliefs today.  You can read this bishop's writings at tertullian.org/fathers

You cannot ignore this fact of Islam, i.e. it's a militant and aggressive religion.  Moderate Muslims are simply blind and in denial, at best followers of a "heretical" form of Islam.

Consider also the similarities between the ideas of the Shah and Ahmedinajab in Iran and the ideas of Saudi government.  Shiites and Sunnis are inherently belligerent when really religious.  As one Conservative politician said, there are two types of governments in the Islamic Middle East, a religious tyranny and a secular tyranny, the former following religion and the latter moderates who have to tyrannical against followers of religion.  It is close to impossible to democratize an Islamic group of people.

God bless.
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« Reply #23 on: October 20, 2007, 08:16:19 PM »

They think they're a potential target with the fresco in the Basilica in Bologna?
The Church of Our Lady in Dendermonde, Flanders (Belgium) features a late 17th century pulpit, sculpted in wood by Mattheus van Beveren, upheld by Angels who are treading Mohammed underfoot, who is leaning on the Qu'ran:



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ialmisry
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« Reply #24 on: November 24, 2007, 12:03:51 AM »

I don't know that resorting to violence is necessarily an Islamic thing; I think it has more to do with the fact that uneducated imams with a little authority are able to whip up a frenzy among equally uneducated followers.  When the whole cartoon thing went down, it was mainly the poorer, uneducated countries that seemed to produce the most calls for violence.  The more moderate (educated) the country, the less likely we are to hear "Death to (insert perceived evil of choice)", rather than a call for an apology and dialogue.  I'm thinking of Indonesia now, but I'm sure there were others.

Jibrail

An Arabic name (and epithet), and Arabic invocation, an Irish (?) prayer, talk of Indonesia (and if I remember correctly, on some other thread Malay).  OCA?

What's your background?

I agree with your assessment.  It isn't that moderate Muslims aren't out there, but the number of those who can be manipulated by the extreme elements is great.
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A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
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                           and both come out of your mouth
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« Reply #25 on: November 28, 2007, 04:37:50 AM »

HI,

Lets not forget, us Christians are just as guilty of Violence in the name of God. Do you wish me to name a few or do you already no some of them like the " Spanish Inquisition" and Northern Ireland. Or better yet, Charles the Ist beheaded in England by Cromwell.

In Christ,
Hadel
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Lord Jesus Christ, Son of God, have mercy on me, a sinner.
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