OrthodoxChristianity.net
October 21, 2014, 03:39:30 AM *
Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
News: Reminder: No political discussions in the public fora.  If you do not have access to the private Politics Forum, please send a PM to Fr. George.
 
   Home   Help Calendar Contact Treasury Tags Login Register  
Pages: 1 2 All   Go Down
  Print  
Author Topic: The Bible and Veneration  (Read 54230 times) Average Rating: 0
0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.
minasoliman
Mr., Sir, Dude, Guy, Male, tr. Minas in Greek, Menes in white people Egyptologists :-P
Section Moderator
Toumarches
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Oriental Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Coptic Orthodox Archdiocese of North America
Posts: 12,071


Strengthen O Lord the work of Your hands(Is 19:25)


WWW
« on: October 16, 2007, 05:24:24 PM »

I was contemplating on the love Protestants have for the Bible and how much this reflects on the love and veneration we have for icons, saints, relics, the Cross, the Bible, Holy Tradition, etc.  But then, it worries me to see some groups of Protestants call the Bible the "Word of God" as if it wasn't a mere "word" of Scripture, but the actual Logos Himself.

I was wondering what do Protestants think of the Bible?  Is this the only exception to something venerable other than God?  Or is it in some twisted way "worshiped" as the actual "Second Person" of the Trinity, a form of "Bibliolatry?"

Thank you.

Mina
Logged

Vain existence can never exist, for \\\"unless the LORD builds the house, the builders labor in vain.\\\" (Psalm 127)

If the faith is unchanged and rock solid, then the gates of Hades never prevailed in the end.
Nyssa The Hobbit
Used to be OrthodoxFairyQueen
Elder
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian as of 1/10/09
Jurisdiction: Greek Orthodox
Posts: 396



WWW
« Reply #1 on: October 16, 2007, 06:58:13 PM »

In my Protestant days, I didn't see the Bible as Christ, but as the words of God given to man.  It was treated reverently--don't put things on top of it, etc.--but not worshipped.
Logged

Author of "Tojet" (fantasy) and "The Lighthouse" (Gothic), info available at my website URL.
serb1389
Lord, remember me when you come into your Kingdom!
Global Moderator
Merarches
******
Offline Offline

Faith: Eastern Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Greek Orthodox Metropolis of San Francisco
Posts: 8,400


Michał Kalina's biggest fan

FrNPantic
WWW
« Reply #2 on: October 16, 2007, 09:49:39 PM »

I wouldn't say that the Bible is worshiped in the Orthodox church either.  In fact the proper word is veneration (proskinisis), so...(I thought terminology might be important for this particular discussion...clarity is good I think)
Logged

I got nothing.
I forgot the maps
March 27th and May 30th 2010 were my Ordination dates, please forgive everything before that
minasoliman
Mr., Sir, Dude, Guy, Male, tr. Minas in Greek, Menes in white people Egyptologists :-P
Section Moderator
Toumarches
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Oriental Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Coptic Orthodox Archdiocese of North America
Posts: 12,071


Strengthen O Lord the work of Your hands(Is 19:25)


WWW
« Reply #3 on: October 16, 2007, 10:30:15 PM »

I wouldn't say that the Bible is worshiped in the Orthodox church either.  In fact the proper word is veneration (proskinisis), so...(I thought terminology might be important for this particular discussion...clarity is good I think)

I never meant to say that we worship the Bible.  I did use the word "venerate".

At the same time, when a lot of Protestants keep saying "The Word of God" all the time referring to the Bible, and then jump back and talk about the "Word of God Incarnate" in Jesus simultaneously, I worry about what some Protestants think, not all, as if there's a connection that should be considered, which is probably why they think nothing else should be "venerated."

God bless.
Logged

Vain existence can never exist, for \\\"unless the LORD builds the house, the builders labor in vain.\\\" (Psalm 127)

If the faith is unchanged and rock solid, then the gates of Hades never prevailed in the end.
PeterTheAleut
The Right Blowhard Peter the Furtive of Yetts O'Muckhart
Moderator
Protospatharios
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: OCA
Posts: 32,647


Lord, have mercy on the Christians in Mosul!


« Reply #4 on: October 17, 2007, 12:30:44 AM »

From my experience, I think Protestants define the title "Word" differently when they use it in reference to the Bible and when they use it in reference to Christ.  The Bible is the Word of God, but not in the same way that Christ is the Word of God.  I can see how this would be confusing to those who aren't as well versed in the different uses of the same word.
Logged
dantxny
OC.net Mineshaft gap
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Russian
Posts: 769



« Reply #5 on: October 17, 2007, 07:32:23 AM »

From my experience, I think Protestants define the title "Word" differently when they use it in reference to the Bible and when they use it in reference to Christ.  The Bible is the Word of God, but not in the same way that Christ is the Word of God.  I can see how this would be confusing to those who aren't as well versed in the different uses of the same word.

For the most part I agree; although, I have run into several Southern Baptists who do not make that distinction.  Perhaps, it helps explain the fundamentalism, but it is also slightly bothersome on another hand too.
Logged

"If you give the average Frenchman a choice between a reforming president who would plug the country's huge deficit and a good cheese, he would probably opt for the cheese." - Stephen Clarke
I think the French may be on to something here.
minasoliman
Mr., Sir, Dude, Guy, Male, tr. Minas in Greek, Menes in white people Egyptologists :-P
Section Moderator
Toumarches
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Oriental Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Coptic Orthodox Archdiocese of North America
Posts: 12,071


Strengthen O Lord the work of Your hands(Is 19:25)


WWW
« Reply #6 on: October 17, 2007, 08:57:47 AM »

For the most part I agree; although, I have run into several Southern Baptists who do not make that distinction.  Perhaps, it helps explain the fundamentalism, but it is also slightly bothersome on another hand too.

These are the ones I'm very curious about.  If they don't make the distinction, either they don't worship Christ or they worship the Bible.

As for those who do make the distinction, do some realize the inconsistency of venerating the Bible and yet ignoring the veneration of at least other writings, let alone relics and icons?
Logged

Vain existence can never exist, for \\\"unless the LORD builds the house, the builders labor in vain.\\\" (Psalm 127)

If the faith is unchanged and rock solid, then the gates of Hades never prevailed in the end.
Fr. David
The Poster Formerly Known as "Pedro"
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Eastern Orthodox
Jurisdiction: OCA, Diocese of the South
Posts: 2,828



WWW
« Reply #7 on: October 17, 2007, 09:46:05 AM »

From my experience, I think Protestants define the title "Word" differently when they use it in reference to the Bible and when they use it in reference to Christ.  The Bible is the Word of God, but not in the same way that Christ is the Word of God.  I can see how this would be confusing to those who aren't as well versed in the different uses of the same word.

This is accurate re: their stance, and I pretty much agree: the Bible is the [written] Word of God--a written icon of the Faith, as it were--while Christ is the incarnate Logos--THE Word of God.  Some Evangelicals need to be reminded that verses like Heb. 4:12 refer not to Scripture but to Christ.
Logged

Priest in the Orthodox Church in America - ordained on March 18, 2012

Oh Taste and See (my defunct blog)

From Protestant to Orthodox (my conversion story)
dantxny
OC.net Mineshaft gap
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Russian
Posts: 769



« Reply #8 on: October 17, 2007, 02:37:30 PM »

Quote
These are the ones I'm very curious about.  If they don't make the distinction, either they don't worship Christ or they worship the Bible
Personally, the few I ran into, I think that they simply did not consider the issue as they didn't have enough education to consider it and not enough guidence for it to be corrected externally.  That said, I wish at the time I had pursued a line of questioning as to their reasons.
Logged

"If you give the average Frenchman a choice between a reforming president who would plug the country's huge deficit and a good cheese, he would probably opt for the cheese." - Stephen Clarke
I think the French may be on to something here.
Cephas
There is no spoon.
Elder
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Coptic Orthodox
Jurisdiction: See of St. Mark
Posts: 288

γνῶθισε αυτόν


« Reply #9 on: October 17, 2007, 03:05:09 PM »

+ Irini nem ehmot,

From my experience, I think Protestants define the title "Word" differently when they use it in reference to the Bible and when they use it in reference to Christ.  The Bible is the Word of God, but not in the same way that Christ is the Word of God.  I can see how this would be confusing to those who aren't as well versed in the different uses of the same word.

I've always been curious about this and I'm glad it has come up.  I, personally, have always had a problem with referring to the Bible as the 'Word of God' because, as Mina points out, it seems to me that there is only one 'Word of God', Christ.  By calling the Bible the 'Word of God', it seems, in my mind, to make the Bible inerrant and infallible, which I'm not so sure is the case.  The fact that there are discrepancies found in the Bible is a testament to the 'errancy' (if you will) of the text.  The texts were composed by men inspired by the Holy Spirit, but still contain each individuals point of view, bias and knowledge of science, astronomy, politics and what have you of the time.  I typically refer to the Bible as inspired text that contains the words of God.  Now, my question is, is this (for lack of a better term) Orthodox?  I mean, I acknowledge the authority of the Scripture, but for me, it is not the be all and end all (as Sola Scriptura would have us believe).  It is the foundation (as the rest of Holy Tradition is) on which the Church is grounded, but it cannot be used in a vacuum so to speak.  Your thoughts on this matter would be greatly appreciated.
Logged

Cephas 

"But he was wounded for our transgressions, crushed for our iniquities; upon him was the punishment that made us whole, and by his bruises we are healed."
-- Isaiah 53:5

"He who knows himself knows God"
-- Pi Nishti Abba Antony
ytterbiumanalyst
Professor Emeritus, CSA
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Faith: Christian
Jurisdiction: OCA Diocese of the Midwest
Posts: 8,790



« Reply #10 on: October 17, 2007, 06:58:21 PM »

When I was in college, I had a professor who referred to Jesus as the Incarnation of God and the Bible as the Inscripturation of God. His idea was that as God dwelt within a body while Jesus was on Earth, after the Ascension God disappeared from the Earth until the Bible was written, and then He dwelt within the pages of Scripture.

I thought for a while that he was clearly deranged until my priest (before I told him this story) mentioned that he had a professor in his Lutheran seminary who used the same word Inscripturation. Apparently this bizarre heresy is more widespread than I originally thought.
Logged

"It is remarkable that what we call the world...in what professes to be true...will allow in one man no blemishes, and in another no virtue."--Charles Dickens
PeterTheAleut
The Right Blowhard Peter the Furtive of Yetts O'Muckhart
Moderator
Protospatharios
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: OCA
Posts: 32,647


Lord, have mercy on the Christians in Mosul!


« Reply #11 on: October 18, 2007, 12:23:14 AM »

When I was in college, I had a professor who referred to Jesus as the Incarnation of God and the Bible as the Inscripturation of God. His idea was that as God dwelt within a body while Jesus was on Earth, after the Ascension God disappeared from the Earth until the Bible was written, and then He dwelt within the pages of Scripture.

I thought for a while that he was clearly deranged until my priest (before I told him this story) mentioned that he had a professor in his Lutheran seminary who used the same word Inscripturation. Apparently this bizarre heresy is more widespread than I originally thought.
The first thing that comes to mind is this:  I wonder how closely this parallels the 18th-19th(?) Century Russian heresy of the worshippers of the Holy Name.  My limited knowledge is that these heretics taught that even the Name of Christ is Divine and worthy of our worship.
Logged
Cyril of New York
Jr. Member
**
Offline Offline

Faith: Greek Orthodox
Jurisdiction: GO Archdiocese
Posts: 35



« Reply #12 on: October 21, 2007, 02:00:50 PM »

I've always tried to resist the "bilbliolatry" label when describing protestant doctrine. It's a gross oversimplification that we as Orthodox should be particularly wary of since we've had to suffer similar invectives over the ages ("you worship Mary", "you worship icons", etc., etc.). But sometimes I really have to wonder whether or not many die-hard sola scriptura evangelicals find the printed word holier than Christ himself. I think specifically of groups like the "sola KJV" crowd and a plethora of self-styled prophets on the web, one of whom listed 100 Catholic "heresies", which included such ludicrous objections as trivial as the use of candles in worship. I was listening to Hank Hanegraaff's radio show back when "Passion of the Christ" hit theatres, and more than one caller voiced anxiety over such innocuous elements as the flashback scene with Jesus and His Mother sharing some tenderly humorous moments. Many more complained about the extent of Mary's very presence in the film.  "But that's not in the Bible!" was the common denominator. Thankfully, Hank himself was a bit more level-headed pertaining to that subject. It was one of the few times I didn't shake my head or talk back to the radio. Case in point; when the movie "Luther" was being discussed. I almost had to pull off the road.
Logged
EkhristosAnesti
'I will say of the Lord, "He is my refuge and my fortress; My God, in Him I will trust."' - Psalm 91:2
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Oriental Orthodox
Posts: 2,743


Pope St Kyrillos VI


« Reply #13 on: October 22, 2007, 09:17:55 AM »

Just came across this during the course of my research for a final essay:

Dr. Robert W. Wall:

Quote
[V]arious biblical writings, picked up time and again, preserved and then canonized by the faith community, were brought together in their final form to function in two formative ways: first, as a rule whose teaching regulates the church's theological understanding; and, second, as a sacrament whose use mediates God's salvific grace to those who actually use Scripture. Even as the Word made flesh was "full of grace and truth" (John 1:14), so now....the word made text mediates the grace and truth of the Son to those who seek him in faith.

'The Significance of a Canonical Perpsective of the Church's Scripture', in The Canon Debate, ed. L.M. McDonald & J.A. Sanders (Massachusetts: 2002, Hendrickson Publishers), 528.
« Last Edit: October 22, 2007, 09:18:29 AM by EkhristosAnesti » Logged

No longer an active member of this forum. Sincerest apologies to anyone who has taken offence to anything posted in youthful ignorance or negligence prior to my leaving this forum - October, 2012.

"Philosophy is the imitation by a man of what is better, according to what is possible" - St Severus
lubeltri
Latin Catholic layman
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Faith: Catholic
Jurisdiction: Archdiocese of Boston
Posts: 3,795



« Reply #14 on: October 22, 2007, 10:53:17 AM »

I was listening to Hank Hanegraaff's radio show back when "Passion of the Christ" hit theatres, and more than one caller voiced anxiety over such innocuous elements as the flashback scene with Jesus and His Mother sharing some tenderly humorous moments.

What a shame. The table-making scene was one of my favorite parts. It brought tears to my eyes.
Logged
FountainPen
Is not wasting any more of her ink
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Posts: 1,025



« Reply #15 on: October 28, 2011, 01:22:05 PM »

I realise this thread is a few years old but i felt i had to add my part to it, if only for posterity.

In a similar way that Protestants often misunderstand the Orthodox terminology and practise as much of it is known and therefore not explicitly stated unless asked. This phrase is very similar in that, when we refer to the word of God, meaning the scriptures, as Peter said already, it's the inspired God-breathed words and mostly everyone would know this even though they wouldn't state it explicitly every time the phrase is used. 'The Word' of God is hardly ever used unless in bible study, readings or specific preaching, because The Word became flesh (Jesus) and is now Christ. Therefore it is highly unlikely when any Protestant refers to 'the word of God', they mean The Word.

I've certainly never been involved in a conversation where another believer has mixed up the two and we've had to clarify and i've certainly heard preaching where the distinction is made.
Logged

None of us can have as many virtues as the fountain pen, or half its cussedness; but we can try. Mark Twain
HabteSelassie
Ises and I-ity
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Oriental Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Ethiopian Orthodox Tewahedo Church
Posts: 3,332



« Reply #16 on: October 28, 2011, 01:52:04 PM »

Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!

From my experience, I think Protestants define the title "Word" differently when they use it in reference to the Bible and when they use it in reference to Christ.  The Bible is the Word of God, but not in the same way that Christ is the Word of God.  I can see how this would be confusing to those who aren't as well versed in the different uses of the same word.

I would argue differently.  In the jumble of heresies which the Protestants spontaneously, intentionally, or coincidentally have revived in their congregations, they have mixed up legitimate Christology with falsehoods of misunderstanding.

The Church teaches that the Word, the Second Person of the Holy Trinity, is the vocalization of the Father, that is, the Word is the begotten expression of the Will of the Father.  The Father does not literally "speak" He not having a mouth, however, the Word, is the speaking of the Father in that the Word effects the economy of God into existence, as attested in the Gospel of John 1:3.

I believe that when Protestants mistakenly conflate the Word of God in the Person of Jesus Christ, and the word of God as spoken and revealed in the Scriptures, it is because they are conflating these two similar concepts. If the Second Person of the Trinity is the Word of God [i.e., the maifesation of trhe WIll of God] and Jesus is also the Word of God, folks mistakenly make Jesus to become the Bible. They don't seem to understand that the Bible is a symbolic representation of God, like all literature and writing is a symbol of the thought it conveys, and that Jesus as the Word is a hypostatic manifestation of the thought and Will of God the Father. Both the Bible and the Word (as a Person) reveal the depth of God, however it is because the written word reflects a symbolic image of the actual Word of God, who in His Incarnation, is an actual refection of the Invisible God. We read the Bible to find Jesus Christ, and in the process maybe some folks get mixed up and take the mirror image for the actual.

stay blessed,
habte selassie
« Last Edit: October 28, 2011, 01:53:51 PM by HabteSelassie » Logged

"Yet stand aloof from stupid questionings and geneologies and strifes and fightings about law, for they are without benefit and vain." Titus 3:10
PeterTheAleut
The Right Blowhard Peter the Furtive of Yetts O'Muckhart
Moderator
Protospatharios
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: OCA
Posts: 32,647


Lord, have mercy on the Christians in Mosul!


« Reply #17 on: October 28, 2011, 02:22:40 PM »

Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!

From my experience, I think Protestants define the title "Word" differently when they use it in reference to the Bible and when they use it in reference to Christ.  The Bible is the Word of God, but not in the same way that Christ is the Word of God.  I can see how this would be confusing to those who aren't as well versed in the different uses of the same word.

I would argue differently.  In the jumble of heresies which the Protestants spontaneously, intentionally, or coincidentally have revived in their congregations, they have mixed up legitimate Christology with falsehoods of misunderstanding.

The Church teaches that the Word, the Second Person of the Holy Trinity, is the vocalization of the Father, that is, the Word is the begotten expression of the Will of the Father.  The Father does not literally "speak" He not having a mouth, however, the Word, is the speaking of the Father in that the Word effects the economy of God into existence, as attested in the Gospel of John 1:3.

I believe that when Protestants mistakenly conflate the Word of God in the Person of Jesus Christ, and the word of God as spoken and revealed in the Scriptures, it is because they are conflating these two similar concepts. If the Second Person of the Trinity is the Word of God [i.e., the maifesation of trhe WIll of God] and Jesus is also the Word of God, folks mistakenly make Jesus to become the Bible. They don't seem to understand that the Bible is a symbolic representation of God, like all literature and writing is a symbol of the thought it conveys, and that Jesus as the Word is a hypostatic manifestation of the thought and Will of God the Father. Both the Bible and the Word (as a Person) reveal the depth of God, however it is because the written word reflects a symbolic image of the actual Word of God, who in His Incarnation, is an actual refection of the Invisible God. We read the Bible to find Jesus Christ, and in the process maybe some folks get mixed up and take the mirror image for the actual.

stay blessed,
habte selassie
However, I think you're missing something. I spoke from my experience. Unless you're also speaking from experience, I'm not sure I can see your response as a successful rebuttal, since you would only be speaking from theory.
« Last Edit: October 28, 2011, 02:22:57 PM by PeterTheAleut » Logged
ialmisry
There's nothing John of Damascus can't answer
Warned
Hypatos
*****************
Offline Offline

Faith: جامعي Arab confesssing the Orthodox Faith of the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church
Jurisdiction: Antioch (for now), but my heart belongs to Alexandria
Posts: 37,960



« Reply #18 on: October 28, 2011, 02:33:23 PM »

Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!

From my experience, I think Protestants define the title "Word" differently when they use it in reference to the Bible and when they use it in reference to Christ.  The Bible is the Word of God, but not in the same way that Christ is the Word of God.  I can see how this would be confusing to those who aren't as well versed in the different uses of the same word.

I would argue differently.  In the jumble of heresies which the Protestants spontaneously, intentionally, or coincidentally have revived in their congregations, they have mixed up legitimate Christology with falsehoods of misunderstanding.

The Church teaches that the Word, the Second Person of the Holy Trinity, is the vocalization of the Father, that is, the Word is the begotten expression of the Will of the Father.  The Father does not literally "speak" He not having a mouth, however, the Word, is the speaking of the Father in that the Word effects the economy of God into existence, as attested in the Gospel of John 1:3.

I believe that when Protestants mistakenly conflate the Word of God in the Person of Jesus Christ, and the word of God as spoken and revealed in the Scriptures, it is because they are conflating these two similar concepts. If the Second Person of the Trinity is the Word of God [i.e., the maifesation of trhe WIll of God] and Jesus is also the Word of God, folks mistakenly make Jesus to become the Bible. They don't seem to understand that the Bible is a symbolic representation of God, like all literature and writing is a symbol of the thought it conveys, and that Jesus as the Word is a hypostatic manifestation of the thought and Will of God the Father. Both the Bible and the Word (as a Person) reveal the depth of God, however it is because the written word reflects a symbolic image of the actual Word of God, who in His Incarnation, is an actual refection of the Invisible God. We read the Bible to find Jesus Christ, and in the process maybe some folks get mixed up and take the mirror image for the actual.

stay blessed,
habte selassie
However, I think you're missing something. I spoke from my experience. Unless you're also speaking from experience, I'm not sure I can see your response as a successful rebuttal, since you would only be speaking from theory.
Honestly, I don't recall Protestants giving much thought to Christ as God the Word to make any confusion with the Word of God possible.  That's possibly not by chance: many (most?) Protestants seem almost gnostic in their orientation, and John wrote his Gospel in part to take the gnostics head on.
Logged

Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth
HabteSelassie
Ises and I-ity
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Oriental Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Ethiopian Orthodox Tewahedo Church
Posts: 3,332



« Reply #19 on: October 28, 2011, 02:33:48 PM »

Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!


However, I think you're missing something. I spoke from my experience. Unless you're also speaking from experience, I'm not sure I can see your response as a successful rebuttal, since you would only be speaking from theory.

I am very much speaking from experience, while surely not all Protestants make this conflation, many in fact do.  Many do in fact speak interchangeably regarding either the Word or the Bible.  I am not saying that Protestants physically mix up the Bible and Jesus Christ, however it seems clear that conceptually they do.  What I mean by this is that folks are under the assumption that Jesus Christ is somehow LIMITED by what is written of Him in the Scriptures, or that ONLY through the Scriptures can we know Jesus Christ, which is of course not true at all.  Jesus Christ is real, and exists on His own, entirely separate from the Scriptures.  The Scriptures speak of Him, but He can always speak for Himself.  We in Orthodox seek a relationship with Him directly, whereas it seems many Protestants seem to equate a relationship with the Bible as having a relationship with Jesus Christ.  How can that be? This is what I was insinuating when I said folks mix up the mirror image for the actual.  The Bible reflects Jesus Christ, but we can know Him directly.  I would further argue that in making the Communion a symbol, they have somehow made the Bible actual, when it is the other way around. Through the Holy Communion we know Jesus Christ in a very real and actual way, and through the Bible we re unveiled a symbolic representation, whereas Protestants seem to think that the Communion is the symbol, and that the Scriptures are the actual revelation of Jesus Christ.

stay blessed,
habte selassie
Logged

"Yet stand aloof from stupid questionings and geneologies and strifes and fightings about law, for they are without benefit and vain." Titus 3:10
FountainPen
Is not wasting any more of her ink
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Posts: 1,025



« Reply #20 on: October 28, 2011, 08:09:33 PM »

I believe that when Protestants mistakenly conflate the Word of God in the Person of Jesus Christ, and the word of God

You can believe that all you want but it's not true. We don't conflate anything, there is a clear difference and if you think simply because The Word of God and the word of God are similarly worded, that Protestants somehow can't differentiate then i hope i've been able to correct that misunderstanding.
Logged

None of us can have as many virtues as the fountain pen, or half its cussedness; but we can try. Mark Twain
NicholasMyra
Avowed denominationalist
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Antiochian/Greek
Posts: 5,968


When in doubt, you lack the proper φρόνημα


« Reply #21 on: October 28, 2011, 08:39:32 PM »

I believe that when Protestants mistakenly conflate the Word of God in the Person of Jesus Christ, and the word of God

You can believe that all you want but it's not true. We don't conflate anything, there is a clear difference and if you think simply because The Word of God and the word of God are similarly worded, that Protestants somehow can't differentiate then i hope i've been able to correct that misunderstanding.
I once read that there is a (probably baptist) illustrated book for children that quotes the Gospel of John: "in the beginning was the Word..."

The image next to the text depicts a copy of the Scriptures floating above the earth.
« Last Edit: October 28, 2011, 08:39:46 PM by NicholasMyra » Logged

Quote from: Orthonorm
if Christ does and says x. And someone else does and says not x and you are ever in doubt, follow Christ.
dzheremi
No longer posting here.
Warned
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Coptic
Posts: 4,383


« Reply #22 on: October 28, 2011, 09:18:39 PM »

This seems like a good place to share this podcast from Ancient Faith Radio: Can We Really Know God?

In it, Fr. Michael Reagan makes a point that really rings true with me, as someone who was raised in a Protestant (Presbyterian) church: Because they reject the sacramental mysteries, true communion with God is replaced by necessity with "Bible studies", because the Protestants lack very much else by which they might come to know God. Over time, this has morphed in modern Protestantism into the sort of situation that we see now, wherein it is only the Bible that is seen as having any sort of power or authority, despite what is written in the Bible itself regarding the relationship of the scriptures to this concept of knowing God (Fr. Michael brings several examples; listen to the podcast, please...it is very enlightening).

Without necessarily accusing the Protestants of conflating the Word of God (Christ) with the scriptures, I think it is harder to refute Fr. Michael's observation. It is a reality that I experienced myself, and am forever indebted to God for bringing me out of.
Logged

bogdan
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Posts: 1,615



« Reply #23 on: October 28, 2011, 09:39:55 PM »

I believe that when Protestants mistakenly conflate the Word of God in the Person of Jesus Christ, and the word of God

You can believe that all you want but it's not true. We don't conflate anything, there is a clear difference and if you think simply because The Word of God and the word of God are similarly worded, that Protestants somehow can't differentiate then i hope i've been able to correct that misunderstanding.
I once read that there is a (probably baptist) illustrated book for children that quotes the Gospel of John: "in the beginning was the Word..."

The image next to the text depicts a copy of the Scriptures floating above the earth.

Like this?



You can do a Google Images search for "in the beginning was the word" for many more anecdotal examples. There are a lot more pictures of Bibles than there are of Christ.

Unfortunately I think many people do conflate Christ and the Bible, and this is kind of how they view Him/it:



"The Word became text and was shelved among us..."
« Last Edit: October 28, 2011, 09:45:17 PM by bogdan » Logged
Cognomen
Site Supporter
OC.net guru
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Catholic
Jurisdiction: Phyletism Rules, OK
Posts: 1,968


Ungrateful Biped


« Reply #24 on: October 28, 2011, 11:15:41 PM »

 ^  Grin  Great post, even the unnerving picture.
Logged

North American Eastern Orthodox Parish Council Delegate for the Canonization of Saints Twin Towers and Pentagon, as well as the Propagation of the Doctrine of the Assumption of Malaysia Airlines Flight MH370 (NAEOPCDCSTTPPDAMAFM®).
Ortho_cat
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: AOCA-DWMA
Posts: 5,392



« Reply #25 on: October 28, 2011, 11:45:33 PM »

I don't think any protestants worship the bible as God.
Logged
PeterTheAleut
The Right Blowhard Peter the Furtive of Yetts O'Muckhart
Moderator
Protospatharios
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: OCA
Posts: 32,647


Lord, have mercy on the Christians in Mosul!


« Reply #26 on: October 29, 2011, 12:32:59 AM »

I believe that when Protestants mistakenly conflate the Word of God in the Person of Jesus Christ, and the word of God

You can believe that all you want but it's not true. We don't conflate anything, there is a clear difference and if you think simply because The Word of God and the word of God are similarly worded, that Protestants somehow can't differentiate then i hope i've been able to correct that misunderstanding.
You do realize that HabteSelassie was talking about his experience of some Protestants? Maybe you and those Protestants you know don't conflate the two (which is also what I experienced as a Protestant), but it's possible that Habte has met other Protestants who do. You therefore haven't corrected any misunderstanding with your hasty generalization.
« Last Edit: October 29, 2011, 12:37:09 AM by PeterTheAleut » Logged
Iconodule
Uranopolitan
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: OCA (Diocese of Eastern Pennsylvania)
Posts: 7,019


"My god is greater."


« Reply #27 on: October 29, 2011, 01:03:43 AM »

I don't think any protestants worship the bible as God.

Why bother with what they really believe when we can spin countless tales about Protestant fertility deities, book-worshipers, and, don't forget, that wonderful catch-all "gnosticism"?
Logged

"A riddle or the cricket's cry
Is to doubt a fit reply." - William Blake
FountainPen
Is not wasting any more of her ink
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Posts: 1,025



« Reply #28 on: October 29, 2011, 05:06:51 AM »

I believe that when Protestants mistakenly conflate the Word of God in the Person of Jesus Christ, and the word of God

You can believe that all you want but it's not true. We don't conflate anything, there is a clear difference and if you think simply because The Word of God and the word of God are similarly worded, that Protestants somehow can't differentiate then i hope i've been able to correct that misunderstanding.
You do realize that HabteSelassie was talking about his experience of some Protestants? Maybe you and those Protestants you know don't conflate the two (which is also what I experienced as a Protestant), but it's possible that Habte has met other Protestants who do. You therefore haven't corrected any misunderstanding with your hasty generalization.

I'm sure Habte can answer for himself.
Logged

None of us can have as many virtues as the fountain pen, or half its cussedness; but we can try. Mark Twain
FountainPen
Is not wasting any more of her ink
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Posts: 1,025



« Reply #29 on: October 29, 2011, 05:17:43 AM »


I am very much speaking from experience.  .  .


You didn't make this clear in your post before this one.
I'm sure you might have come across Protestants who believe this but by far, it's not the majority, certainly not "many".
Logged

None of us can have as many virtues as the fountain pen, or half its cussedness; but we can try. Mark Twain
DennyB
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 228


Moving Toward Orthodoxy


« Reply #30 on: October 29, 2011, 07:31:36 AM »

When I was in college, I had a professor who referred to Jesus as the Incarnation of God and the Bible as the Inscripturation of God. His idea was that as God dwelt within a body while Jesus was on Earth, after the Ascension God disappeared from the Earth until the Bible was written, and then He dwelt within the pages of Scripture.

I thought for a while that he was clearly deranged until my priest (before I told him this story) mentioned that he had a professor in his Lutheran seminary who used the same word Inscripturation. Apparently this bizarre heresy is more widespread than I originally thought.

You mentioned something here that I think is very relevent to this disscussion and I'm not sure that others here saw it,and it was something your professor said. If his view of Christ is that God simply "dwelt" within a body,this thinking clearly has implacations on both one's view of the Bible,and Christ himself. We need to understand that the Body of Christ is NOT segragated, God did not possess a Body, The Physical body of Christ was just as much God as His Spirit was,meaning the Flesh and Blood of Jesus Christ IS Divine.
Logged
genesisone
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Antioch
Posts: 2,501



« Reply #31 on: October 29, 2011, 07:51:02 AM »


I am very much speaking from experience.  .  .


You didn't make this clear in your post before this one.
I'm sure you might have come across Protestants who believe this but by far, it's not the majority, certainly not "many".
I'm going to have to side with HabteSelassie on this one. "many" is correct. It is true that Protestants who actually think about such things will understand and articulate the difference, but to the average pew-warmer, there is little if any distinction.

This thinking seems to come across in various ways. There is one interesting point that I notice regularly is in the credal statements of various denominations and para-church organizations. In some churches point number one is about God - Who He is. In others, point number one is about the Scriptures - thus (possibly inadvertently) placing the Scriptures ahead of God! It's no wonder there is confusion in the ranks.
Logged
FountainPen
Is not wasting any more of her ink
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Posts: 1,025



« Reply #32 on: October 29, 2011, 10:08:41 AM »


I am very much speaking from experience.  .  .


You didn't make this clear in your post before this one.
I'm sure you might have come across Protestants who believe this but by far, it's not the majority, certainly not "many".
I'm going to have to side with HabteSelassie on this one. "many" is correct. It is true that Protestants who actually think about such things will understand and articulate the difference, but to the average pew-warmer, there is little if any distinction.

This thinking seems to come across in various ways. There is one interesting point that I notice regularly is in the credal statements of various denominations and para-church organizations. In some churches point number one is about God - Who He is. In others, point number one is about the Scriptures - thus (possibly inadvertently) placing the Scriptures ahead of God! It's no wonder there is confusion in the ranks.

If this is your evidence for "many" then i need to know which credal statements exactly please?
Logged

None of us can have as many virtues as the fountain pen, or half its cussedness; but we can try. Mark Twain
Dyhn
Member
***
Offline Offline

Faith: Inquirer ~ actively working towards catechumen
Posts: 89


« Reply #33 on: October 29, 2011, 10:19:44 AM »

It might be more helpful, rather than taking sides, if we simply explored the reasons for our beliefs.
Logged
genesisone
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Antioch
Posts: 2,501



« Reply #34 on: October 29, 2011, 10:50:35 AM »


I am very much speaking from experience.  .  .


You didn't make this clear in your post before this one.
I'm sure you might have come across Protestants who believe this but by far, it's not the majority, certainly not "many".
I'm going to have to side with HabteSelassie on this one. "many" is correct. It is true that Protestants who actually think about such things will understand and articulate the difference, but to the average pew-warmer, there is little if any distinction.

This thinking seems to come across in various ways. There is one interesting point that I notice regularly is in the credal statements of various denominations and para-church organizations. In some churches point number one is about God - Who He is. In others, point number one is about the Scriptures - thus (possibly inadvertently) placing the Scriptures ahead of God! It's no wonder there is confusion in the ranks.

If this is your evidence for "many" then i need to know which credal statements exactly please?
The "many" comes in great part from my 50+ years in an Evangelical Protestant church and my continued association with many friends and relatives. The credal statements to which I refer have been noticed over a number of years as I have examined the beliefs of various denominations and organizations. I would suggest that you simply look up a variety of denominations and para-church organizations that have a presence in your home town or are otherwise known to you.

It doesn't surprise me that you (or anyone else, I don't mean it to be taken as exclusively you personally) might question my statement. What I discovered was not what I expected to find. It took me by surprise, too.

Please accept my apologies if my wording "have to side with H..S.." seemed aggressive. It was not intended to mean more than "I agree with".
Logged
minasoliman
Mr., Sir, Dude, Guy, Male, tr. Minas in Greek, Menes in white people Egyptologists :-P
Section Moderator
Toumarches
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Oriental Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Coptic Orthodox Archdiocese of North America
Posts: 12,071


Strengthen O Lord the work of Your hands(Is 19:25)


WWW
« Reply #35 on: October 29, 2011, 12:00:31 PM »

Sometimes, in the part of Scriptures and God, I feel there are three groups of Protestants:

1.  Those who can recognize the difference
2.  Those who can't recognize the difference
3.  Those who probably can recognize the difference, but their teachings imply and could lead to a logical conclusion that they can't, maybe even confuse their own congregation.
Logged

Vain existence can never exist, for \\\"unless the LORD builds the house, the builders labor in vain.\\\" (Psalm 127)

If the faith is unchanged and rock solid, then the gates of Hades never prevailed in the end.
PeterTheAleut
The Right Blowhard Peter the Furtive of Yetts O'Muckhart
Moderator
Protospatharios
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: OCA
Posts: 32,647


Lord, have mercy on the Christians in Mosul!


« Reply #36 on: October 29, 2011, 02:08:01 PM »


I am very much speaking from experience.  .  .


You didn't make this clear in your post before this one.
I'm sure you might have come across Protestants who believe this but by far, it's not the majority, certainly not "many".
I'm going to have to side with HabteSelassie on this one. "many" is correct. It is true that Protestants who actually think about such things will understand and articulate the difference, but to the average pew-warmer, there is little if any distinction.

This thinking seems to come across in various ways. There is one interesting point that I notice regularly is in the credal statements of various denominations and para-church organizations. In some churches point number one is about God - Who He is. In others, point number one is about the Scriptures - thus (possibly inadvertently) placing the Scriptures ahead of God! It's no wonder there is confusion in the ranks.

If this is your evidence for "many" then i need to know which credal statements exactly please?
Define "many". To my understanding, "many" does not mean "majority" or "strong minority" or a percentage of any kind. "Many" simply means a large number. 1000 people may be a very minuscule portion of a population of 100,000,000, but they will certainly fill up a large banquet room.

You do realize that you're also arguing with those who have experience? You can argue theory all you want and say that Protestants don't conflate the Bible with Christ, but some of us have actually met Protestants who do conflate the two. To argue theory with such who have experience is analogous to bringing a knife to a gunfight.

Protestantism is also not as monolithic as you would like to think it is.
« Last Edit: October 29, 2011, 02:15:57 PM by PeterTheAleut » Logged
PeterTheAleut
The Right Blowhard Peter the Furtive of Yetts O'Muckhart
Moderator
Protospatharios
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: OCA
Posts: 32,647


Lord, have mercy on the Christians in Mosul!


« Reply #37 on: October 29, 2011, 02:09:25 PM »

I believe that when Protestants mistakenly conflate the Word of God in the Person of Jesus Christ, and the word of God

You can believe that all you want but it's not true. We don't conflate anything, there is a clear difference and if you think simply because The Word of God and the word of God are similarly worded, that Protestants somehow can't differentiate then i hope i've been able to correct that misunderstanding.
You do realize that HabteSelassie was talking about his experience of some Protestants? Maybe you and those Protestants you know don't conflate the two (which is also what I experienced as a Protestant), but it's possible that Habte has met other Protestants who do. You therefore haven't corrected any misunderstanding with your hasty generalization.

I'm sure Habte can answer for himself.
I'm sure he can, too, but my comment was also a roundabout way of acknowledging the truth in what HabteSelassie said in a reply to me.
Logged
dzheremi
No longer posting here.
Warned
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Coptic
Posts: 4,383


« Reply #38 on: October 29, 2011, 02:17:51 PM »

This is the best way I've seen it put so far. I have found that in the un-Orthodox churches (because I've been in them), the problem is often not so much the percentage or overall number of people who might believe something that is clearly heretical (because that number is, in my experience, quite small in any given congregation), but that the doctrine lends itself to multiple interpretations that are not resolvable into some sort of consensus ("when we say _____, this is what we mean"). Hence, you have the multiplicity of situations you find in Protestants' understandings of the Bible and God, or in Catholics' understanding of the filioque, or whatever the issue is. It's a really messy, bad situation because it could very well be the case that nobody you know understands the issue in a problematic fashion, but the fact that the guy two pews over has some sort of strange idea and is still allowed to commune with you (or whatever the Protestant equivalent is, for those Protestants who are non-sacramental) hurts the faith of the entire community, because it gives the impression that there is no real difference between proper understanding and false doctrine. We all love Jesus, right?

Eventually it was this cognitive dissonance between being of one faith on paper and every man being an island unto himself in practice that led me to Orthodoxy (among many other reasons). How anyone in such a situation can stand it, I don't know.

Sometimes, in the part of Scriptures and God, I feel there are three groups of Protestants:

1.  Those who can recognize the difference
2.  Those who can't recognize the difference
3.  Those who probably can recognize the difference, but their teachings imply and could lead to a logical conclusion that they can't, maybe even confuse their own congregation.
Logged

HabteSelassie
Ises and I-ity
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Oriental Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Ethiopian Orthodox Tewahedo Church
Posts: 3,332



« Reply #39 on: October 29, 2011, 08:17:09 PM »

Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!

"Many" means a lot, not a percentage so much as enough for it so be relevant.  I was not trying to insinuate ALL Protestants believe this, and I wasn't trying to insinuate that any folks on this forum are believing this, but from my experience many Protestant Christians, Churches, preachers, books, televangelists, do believe this.  I've already explained myself above, in that I am not saying most folks literally believe that Jesus Christ IS the Bible.  What folks seem to do is use passages regarding the Word (who is Christ) and the Bible interchangeably, and this is an absolute error.  I feel these folks maybe believe that the Bible is THE authority to explain Christ, and so this is how they see the Bible as the Word of God, in that the Bible explains Christ.  The problem is that many folks seem to imply that ONLY the Bible speaks for Christ, or that Christ only speaks through the Bible and no where or in no way else. 

The real problem is not that most Protestants believe this, but that many do.  What is worse, is that even when it is a minority who misconstrue Jesus Christ the Word of God and the Holy Scriptures as the capital Word of God (rather than lowercase word of God), these are not necessarily openly corrected in their Protestant Churches.  That is the real issue, is that Protestant Churches do not always have a centralized belief system, and many preachers and congregations allow individuals to believe and even teach heresies that others may not believe.  In Orthodox we have ONE teaching, and ONE system. If ANY Protestants from ANY churches believe this misconception, than there is a problem within the chain of command communicating the proper teachings.  In Orthodox, the Church of Straight-Thinking, we strictly correct heresies.

stay blessed,
habte selassie
Logged

"Yet stand aloof from stupid questionings and geneologies and strifes and fightings about law, for they are without benefit and vain." Titus 3:10
FountainPen
Is not wasting any more of her ink
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Posts: 1,025



« Reply #40 on: October 29, 2011, 08:55:55 PM »


I am very much speaking from experience.  .  .


You didn't make this clear in your post before this one.
I'm sure you might have come across Protestants who believe this but by far, it's not the majority, certainly not "many".
I'm going to have to side with HabteSelassie on this one. "many" is correct. It is true that Protestants who actually think about such things will understand and articulate the difference, but to the average pew-warmer, there is little if any distinction.

This thinking seems to come across in various ways. There is one interesting point that I notice regularly is in the credal statements of various denominations and para-church organizations. In some churches point number one is about God - Who He is. In others, point number one is about the Scriptures - thus (possibly inadvertently) placing the Scriptures ahead of God! It's no wonder there is confusion in the ranks.

If this is your evidence for "many" then i need to know which credal statements exactly please?
The "many" comes in great part from my 50+ years in an Evangelical Protestant church and my continued association with many friends and relatives. The credal statements to which I refer have been noticed over a number of years as I have examined the beliefs of various denominations and organizations. I would suggest that you simply look up a variety of denominations and para-church organizations that have a presence in your home town or are otherwise known to you.

It doesn't surprise me that you (or anyone else, I don't mean it to be taken as exclusively you personally) might question my statement. What I discovered was not what I expected to find. It took me by surprise, too.

Please accept my apologies if my wording "have to side with H..S.." seemed aggressive. It was not intended to mean more than "I agree with".

You think i have time to go looking up evidence to back up assertions you've made? You judge my time to be of less value than yours that you'd expect me to do that? The onus is on you to provide the citations to your own statements as i do my own.
Logged

None of us can have as many virtues as the fountain pen, or half its cussedness; but we can try. Mark Twain
FountainPen
Is not wasting any more of her ink
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Posts: 1,025



« Reply #41 on: October 29, 2011, 09:12:07 PM »


I am very much speaking from experience.  .  .


You didn't make this clear in your post before this one.
I'm sure you might have come across Protestants who believe this but by far, it's not the majority, certainly not "many".
I'm going to have to side with HabteSelassie on this one. "many" is correct. It is true that Protestants who actually think about such things will understand and articulate the difference, but to the average pew-warmer, there is little if any distinction.

This thinking seems to come across in various ways. There is one interesting point that I notice regularly is in the credal statements of various denominations and para-church organizations. In some churches point number one is about God - Who He is. In others, point number one is about the Scriptures - thus (possibly inadvertently) placing the Scriptures ahead of God! It's no wonder there is confusion in the ranks.

If this is your evidence for "many" then i need to know which credal statements exactly please?
Define "many". To my understanding, "many" does not mean "majority" or "strong minority" or a percentage of any kind. "Many" simply means a large number. 1000 people may be a very minuscule portion of a population of 100,000,000, but they will certainly fill up a large banquet room.

You do realize that you're also arguing with those who have experience? You can argue theory all you want and say that Protestants don't conflate the Bible with Christ, but some of us have actually met Protestants who do conflate the two. To argue theory with such who have experience is analogous to bringing a knife to a gunfight.

Protestantism is also not as monolithic as you would like to think it is.
Good idea, let's not argue theory. I'd be really surprised if Habteselasie has met 1000 people who have expressed this to him personally as a belief. I'd like approximate figures if that's okay, given that it's Habteselassie's "experience" i'd say he could come up with a rough number and then we would be discussing a few facts rather than "many" opinions. As i've already said, there probably are a few, one or two in every church who conflate them and it wouldn't surprise me if some of you have come across those few people who do.
Logged

None of us can have as many virtues as the fountain pen, or half its cussedness; but we can try. Mark Twain
FountainPen
Is not wasting any more of her ink
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Posts: 1,025



« Reply #42 on: October 29, 2011, 09:33:53 PM »

.  .  .  Protestant Churches do not always have a centralized belief system, and many preachers and congregations allow individuals to believe and even teach heresies that others may not believe.  In Orthodox we have ONE teaching, and ONE system. If ANY Protestants from ANY churches believe this misconception, than there is a problem within the chain of command communicating the proper teachings.  In Orthodox, the Church of Straight-Thinking, we strictly correct heresies.

I can see your point on this to a degree.
Logged

None of us can have as many virtues as the fountain pen, or half its cussedness; but we can try. Mark Twain
genesisone
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Antioch
Posts: 2,501



« Reply #43 on: October 29, 2011, 09:55:02 PM »


You think i have time to go looking up evidence to back up assertions you've made? You judge my time to be of less value than yours that you'd expect me to do that? The onus is on you to provide the citations to your own statements as i do my own.
Do let me help you.

Take a look at these credal statements:
http://www.abaptist.org/general.html This one puts God in third place!
http://ag.org/top/Beliefs/Statement_of_Fundamental_Truths/sft_short.cfm God in second place.
http://www.chog.org/our-beliefs Calls itself "Church of God" - but Who is He?
http://www.bible.ca/cr-AGC.htm
http://www.opc.org/beliefs.html Bible first, God second; they even have the nerve to include the word "orthodox" in their name!
http://www.billygraham.org/statementoffaith.asp Well-known and respected para-church organization
http://www.openarmsmissionwelland.com/site/about mission to the needy in my home town

These, of course, contrast with many churches - usually those with a clear historical connection to traditional sacramental churches, even though they may not regard themselves as "sacramental" now. (Many Methodist denominations as an example).

To save your asking me what "many" means, here's a link:
http://www.wordnik.com/words/many
Logged
bogdan
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Posts: 1,615



« Reply #44 on: October 29, 2011, 10:10:01 PM »

"If the Bible had never existed, could the Church exist?"

The answer to this question will indicate whether a person treats the Bible as God in effect. Most Protestants, I expect, would balk at such a question, because to them the Church flows from the Bible, not vice-versa.

An Orthodox person would say yes, because the Bible is not an existential necessity for the Church. It is a creation of the Church, given by God as a condescension (syncatabasis) for our weakness and lack of faith (see St. John Chrysostom's homilies on Genesis, IIRC).

I am not suggesting we become minimalists and get rid of everything that is deemed unnecessary, that is not my point. My point is, for Protestants everything comes back to the Bible because it is the sole source of divine revelation and thus is the only way to know God. To get rid of the Bible is to get rid of God, in effect, so the Bible's place in Protestantism is clear.

On the other hand, we all know the Church existed perfectly well before the New Testament existed. And I am almost certain that at least some backwater churches in the first centuries had no scriptures at all.

Jesus Christ is the sole captain of this ship, and the Holy Spirit is the wind in the sails. The Bible is the star chart, but the captain knows the stars like the back of his hand. The charts are there for we faithless seamen who still can't manage to trust and follow our captain's lead. (And that is important! But the charts are not the captain or the wind or the stars.)

To stretch the metaphor a bit further: The Fathers are the captain's old shipmates who were taught everything the captain knows, and are at least as reliable as the charts—in part because they studied the charts, in part because they spent so much time with the captain. So the charts are still very important and useful for many things, but they are not the ultimate source of anything, by any means.
« Last Edit: October 29, 2011, 10:15:00 PM by bogdan » Logged
FountainPen
Is not wasting any more of her ink
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Posts: 1,025



« Reply #45 on: October 30, 2011, 04:53:00 AM »


You think i have time to go looking up evidence to back up assertions you've made? You judge my time to be of less value than yours that you'd expect me to do that? The onus is on you to provide the citations to your own statements as i do my own.
Do let me help you.

Take a look at these credal statements:
http://www.abaptist.org/general.html This one puts God in third place!
http://ag.org/top/Beliefs/Statement_of_Fundamental_Truths/sft_short.cfm God in second place.
http://www.chog.org/our-beliefs Calls itself "Church of God" - but Who is He?
http://www.bible.ca/cr-AGC.htm
http://www.opc.org/beliefs.html Bible first, God second; they even have the nerve to include the word "orthodox" in their name!
http://www.billygraham.org/statementoffaith.asp Well-known and respected para-church organization
http://www.openarmsmissionwelland.com/site/about mission to the needy in my home town

These, of course, contrast with many churches - usually those with a clear historical connection to traditional sacramental churches, even though they may not regard themselves as "sacramental" now. (Many Methodist denominations as an example).

To save your asking me what "many" means, here's a link:
http://www.wordnik.com/words/many

Thanks. I wonder if you've emailed any of the above organisations to ask whether the beliefs listed are in order of importance, as that would be my first question before making any assumptions. I could make a list of specifics that i believe and have God last on my list as a way of placing Him over all i'd just covered. Someone could easily read my list, make an assumption and be horrified.

I'm emailing a couple of them, i'll let you know when i get a reply.

Logged

None of us can have as many virtues as the fountain pen, or half its cussedness; but we can try. Mark Twain
minasoliman
Mr., Sir, Dude, Guy, Male, tr. Minas in Greek, Menes in white people Egyptologists :-P
Section Moderator
Toumarches
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Oriental Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Coptic Orthodox Archdiocese of North America
Posts: 12,071


Strengthen O Lord the work of Your hands(Is 19:25)


WWW
« Reply #46 on: October 30, 2011, 10:32:30 PM »

Would you mind also asking them in the email why they believe that the Bible is the Word of God as opposed to the word of God?
Logged

Vain existence can never exist, for \\\"unless the LORD builds the house, the builders labor in vain.\\\" (Psalm 127)

If the faith is unchanged and rock solid, then the gates of Hades never prevailed in the end.
FountainPen
Is not wasting any more of her ink
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Posts: 1,025



« Reply #47 on: October 31, 2011, 05:20:56 AM »

Certainly. Anything else you all want me to include? Smileys? Anecdotes? Vitriol? Malware etc.?
Logged

None of us can have as many virtues as the fountain pen, or half its cussedness; but we can try. Mark Twain
genesisone
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Antioch
Posts: 2,501



« Reply #48 on: October 31, 2011, 07:08:48 AM »


Thanks. I wonder if you've emailed any of the above organisations to ask whether the beliefs listed are in order of importance, as that would be my first question before making any assumptions. I could make a list of specifics that i believe and have God last on my list as a way of placing Him over all i'd just covered. Someone could easily read my list, make an assumption and be horrified.

I'm emailing a couple of them, i'll let you know when i get a reply.


No, it really hasn't been a priority for me to challenge institutions on their beliefs.

Do remember that your question will influence the answer. Also, the person who answers the question may or may not be representative of the ordinary often non-thinking member/supporter of the denomination or organization.

If you have named your present affiliation, I have forgotten, but have you taken a look there? How is their statement of beliefs framed? If you're looking for full disclosure from me, here's my former denomination's position: http://www.fmc-canada.org/en/who-we-are/articles-of-religion.

Looking forward to hearing those replies.

But as for you, what is your reaction to the fact that so many Protestants start their statements of belief with Scripture? Did it surprise you that the practice is so common?
Logged
FountainPen
Is not wasting any more of her ink
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Posts: 1,025



« Reply #49 on: October 31, 2011, 08:06:19 AM »


Thanks. I wonder if you've emailed any of the above organisations to ask whether the beliefs listed are in order of importance, as that would be my first question before making any assumptions. I could make a list of specifics that i believe and have God last on my list as a way of placing Him over all i'd just covered. Someone could easily read my list, make an assumption and be horrified.

I'm emailing a couple of them, i'll let you know when i get a reply.


No, it really hasn't been a priority for me to challenge institutions on their beliefs.

Do remember that your question will influence the answer. Also, the person who answers the question may or may not be representative of the ordinary often non-thinking member/supporter of the denomination or organization.

If you have named your present affiliation, I have forgotten, but have you taken a look there? How is their statement of beliefs framed? If you're looking for full disclosure from me, here's my former denomination's position: http://www.fmc-canada.org/en/who-we-are/articles-of-religion.

Looking forward to hearing those replies.

But as for you, what is your reaction to the fact that so many Protestants start their statements of belief with Scripture? Did it surprise you that the practice is so common?

No it didn't surprise me as i hadn't assumed that the list was in order of importance. I expect you can understand why scripture is so important to Christians who escaped the corruption that Rome was teaching and why unifying around the bible is why so many Protestants won't accept any other text.

My present affiliation is to Christ -- that's it.

As for the emails, it's merely a question of clarity, not challenge. It doesn't matter whether the person who answers is "...representative of the ordinary often non-thinking member/supporter" as this exercise is simply for me to clarify your assumptions about the organisation's 'credal statements' you listed.



I noticed you had the anabaptists at the top
Logged

None of us can have as many virtues as the fountain pen, or half its cussedness; but we can try. Mark Twain
genesisone
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Antioch
Posts: 2,501



« Reply #50 on: October 31, 2011, 08:52:25 AM »


No it didn't surprise me as i hadn't assumed that the list was in order of importance.
Which is why I did say earlier "(possibly inadvertently) placing the Scriptures ahead of God". I don't doubt that when you (generic) ask, "Which is more important: God or the Scriptures?" the likely answer will be "God, of course". If I were requesting clarification, I would more likely ask that they explain why their belief statement concerning the Scriptures precedes their statement about who God is.

Quote
I expect you can understand why scripture is so important to Christians who escaped the corruption that Rome was teaching and why unifying around the bible is why so many Protestants won't accept any other text.
You are entirely right on that one. The Orthodox will generally agree that Roman Catholicism added beliefs to the Apostolic Faith and in so doing were led away from it. Where the Orthodox differ from Protestants is that we believe Protestants in their well-motivated zeal to undo that situation got a bit carried away  Smiley.

Quote
My present affiliation is to Christ -- that's it.
So do you attend church anywhere? What books do you read? You are influenced by those around you whether you realize it or not. We all are.

Quote
As for the emails, it's merely a question of clarity, not challenge. It doesn't matter whether the person who answers is "...representative of the ordinary often non-thinking member/supporter" as this exercise is simply for me to clarify your assumptions about the organisation's 'credal statements' you listed.
And your assumption, as well, that the points in the credal statements are at least to some degree somewhat random.



Quote
I noticed you had the anabaptists at the top
Fair enough. Next time I'll be sure everyone gets a chance to be first and list them like this:
     Associated Gospel       Anabaptist       Baptist       Presbyterian       Methodist       Pentecostal       Lutheran       Mennonite       Wesleyan       Missionary Church       United Church of Canada
Logged
FountainPen
Is not wasting any more of her ink
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Posts: 1,025



« Reply #51 on: October 31, 2011, 09:34:15 AM »


Quote
I expect you can understand why scripture is so important to Christians who escaped the corruption that Rome was teaching and why unifying around the bible is why so many Protestants won't accept any other text.
You are entirely right on that one. The Orthodox will generally agree that Roman Catholicism added beliefs to the Apostolic Faith and in so doing were led away from it. Where the Orthodox differ from Protestants is that we believe Protestants in their well-motivated zeal to undo that situation got a bit carried away  Smiley.

Possibily.



I meet with other believers that i love and trust. We meet regularly sometimes for study etc., sometimes socially. All of us pulled out of the same church and have looked hard for another church to join that had some answers. We haven't been able to find one so we simply meet on our own. The bible is the only book we've needed to read.
Logged

None of us can have as many virtues as the fountain pen, or half its cussedness; but we can try. Mark Twain
minasoliman
Mr., Sir, Dude, Guy, Male, tr. Minas in Greek, Menes in white people Egyptologists :-P
Section Moderator
Toumarches
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Oriental Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Coptic Orthodox Archdiocese of North America
Posts: 12,071


Strengthen O Lord the work of Your hands(Is 19:25)


WWW
« Reply #52 on: October 31, 2011, 09:44:30 AM »

Certainly. Anything else you all want me to include? Smileys? Anecdotes? Vitriol? Malware etc.?

I didn't think my question was vitriolic or offensive.  Undecided  It's just something I'm curious about.  Why do they capitalize the W?  I've always thought that was a source of confusion for the masses.
« Last Edit: October 31, 2011, 09:47:35 AM by minasoliman » Logged

Vain existence can never exist, for \\\"unless the LORD builds the house, the builders labor in vain.\\\" (Psalm 127)

If the faith is unchanged and rock solid, then the gates of Hades never prevailed in the end.
bogdan
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Posts: 1,615



« Reply #53 on: October 31, 2011, 10:38:57 AM »


Quote
I expect you can understand why scripture is so important to Christians who escaped the corruption that Rome was teaching and why unifying around the bible is why so many Protestants won't accept any other text.
You are entirely right on that one. The Orthodox will generally agree that Roman Catholicism added beliefs to the Apostolic Faith and in so doing were led away from it. Where the Orthodox differ from Protestants is that we believe Protestants in their well-motivated zeal to undo that situation got a bit carried away  Smiley.

Possibily.



I meet with other believers that i love and trust. We meet regularly sometimes for study etc., sometimes socially. All of us pulled out of the same church and have looked hard for another church to join that had some answers. We haven't been able to find one so we simply meet on our own. The bible is the only book we've needed to read.

This is the future of Protestantism. It is spiritual anarchy.
Logged
dzheremi
No longer posting here.
Warned
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Coptic
Posts: 4,383


« Reply #54 on: October 31, 2011, 11:03:11 AM »

It's not even really the "future" of Protestantism. It's the pietistic impulse of the past reinvigorated by modern man's desire for intellectual assent to everything first and foremost. We couldn't find answers, etc. I must've overlooked the parts of the Bible and the ECFs that treat the faith as a matter of head knowledge above all...and the part where you can just keep forming new groups until you're comfortable.
Logged

FountainPen
Is not wasting any more of her ink
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Posts: 1,025



« Reply #55 on: October 31, 2011, 01:06:39 PM »

Certainly. Anything else you all want me to include? Smileys? Anecdotes? Vitriol? Malware etc.?

I didn't think my question was vitriolic or offensive.  Undecided  It's just something I'm curious about.  Why do they capitalize the W?  I've always thought that was a source of confusion for the masses.

I'm sorry, i didn't mean to imply you did. My answer was addressed to anyone not you directly.

Given the criticisms of Protestants by Orthodox, i thought it was funny.

I've had a couple of emails back already and as i expected, none of the beliefs are in any particular order.  On the captialisation of the W, one said that both are capitalised out of respect for the words in the bible being God-breathed.
« Last Edit: October 31, 2011, 01:16:03 PM by FountainPen » Logged

None of us can have as many virtues as the fountain pen, or half its cussedness; but we can try. Mark Twain
FountainPen
Is not wasting any more of her ink
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Posts: 1,025



« Reply #56 on: October 31, 2011, 01:08:32 PM »

It's not even really the "future" of Protestantism. It's the pietistic impulse of the past reinvigorated by modern man's desire for intellectual assent to everything first and foremost. We couldn't find answers, etc. I must've overlooked the parts of the Bible and the ECFs that treat the faith as a matter of head knowledge above all...and the part where you can just keep forming new groups until you're comfortable.

Oh for goodness' sake!
Logged

None of us can have as many virtues as the fountain pen, or half its cussedness; but we can try. Mark Twain
genesisone
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Antioch
Posts: 2,501



« Reply #57 on: October 31, 2011, 02:05:15 PM »

I've had a couple of emails back already and as i expected, none of the beliefs are in any particular order.  On the captialisation of the W, one said that both are capitalised out of respect for the words in the bible being God-breathed.
What was your question? That can make a difference.

I find it somewhat hard to believe that groups of people went to the work independently of each other to settle on an outline of their beliefs and it all came out random - yet the "random" order ended up with them all having the same first point. If I were a mathematician, I suppose I could work out the odds.

If you were to email those whose statements begin with who God is, do you think you'll get the response, "Random"?

As for the capitalisation (I'm fine with either spelling  Smiley), do they also capitalize (see  Wink?) "man"? Genesis 2:7 (SAAS): "Then God formed man out of dust from the ground, and breathed in his face the breath of life; and man became a living soul". If not, then they are either just plain inconsistent or really do give higher respect to written revelation than they do to man who is actually created in the image of God.
Logged
HabteSelassie
Ises and I-ity
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Oriental Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Ethiopian Orthodox Tewahedo Church
Posts: 3,332



« Reply #58 on: October 31, 2011, 02:30:01 PM »

Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!

Certainly. Anything else you all want me to include? Smileys? Anecdotes? Vitriol? Malware etc.?

Funny, you've been spiteful, sarcastic, dismissive, and vitriolic across this forum and you're suddenly wondering why folks returning you the favor? If you come to an Orthodox forum to defend heresies, perhaps you should have a bit more sense of humor or diplomatic humility, because you can't brow beat us or box our ears into agreeing or making apologies for Protestant, Pentecostal, Evangelical, or Baptist heresies.  Are these folks good people? Of course.  Are they really Christians? From our perspective, we would say perhaps not, and we don't say this to condemn them.  From our Church psychology and culture, we live in the realm of accountability and repentance.  We are ALL sinners, and we are all guilty, and only taking responsibility for our guilt can we repent and cooperate in God's Grace to find true, life-changing, soul-moving salvation in the Holy Spirit.  So when we speak about heresies, misunderstandings, or sin, we speak from that concrete assumption that acknowledgement is the first step to the problem-solving of Sin.  So we, like we expect of ourselves both individually and collectively, expect sincere repentance. We are quite deeply sorry that Protestants have been duped into believing heresies, much like we have always been sorry for the heretics of all ages, but the Church stands for the Truth consistently, and all must adjust and conform to the Truth.  Whether or not Protestants then think of the Bible as the Word or word of God is then irrelevant, because their very ontological existence is a heresy.  Why try to dust the mud off your shoulders, when your standing waste deep in muck?

In regards to these matters, I am praying for you, me, and us all.

stay blessed,
habte selassie
Logged

"Yet stand aloof from stupid questionings and geneologies and strifes and fightings about law, for they are without benefit and vain." Titus 3:10
dzheremi
No longer posting here.
Warned
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Coptic
Posts: 4,383


« Reply #59 on: October 31, 2011, 02:44:21 PM »

It's not even really the "future" of Protestantism. It's the pietistic impulse of the past reinvigorated by modern man's desire for intellectual assent to everything first and foremost. We couldn't find answers, etc. I must've overlooked the parts of the Bible and the ECFs that treat the faith as a matter of head knowledge above all...and the part where you can just keep forming new groups until you're comfortable.

Oh for goodness' sake!

Too close to home, eh? I was a Protestant, too. My family was also one that "couldn't find answers" in the church we were in (i.e., couldn't get along with the pastor), and because of that left with several other families who had reached the same conclusion. I know well this impulse.  I've been there. It's not a foundation on which to build a Christian community.
Logged

FountainPen
Is not wasting any more of her ink
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Posts: 1,025



« Reply #60 on: October 31, 2011, 08:00:01 PM »

I've had a couple of emails back already and as i expected, none of the beliefs are in any particular order.  On the captialisation of the W, one said that both are capitalised out of respect for the words in the bible being God-breathed.
What was your question? That can make a difference.


I find it somewhat hard to believe that groups of people went to the work independently of each other to settle on an outline of their beliefs and it all came out random - yet the "random" order ended up with them all having the same first point. If I were a mathematician, I suppose I could work out the odds.

If you were to email those whose statements begin with who God is, do you think you'll get the response, "Random"?
Well now, given that it was a controlled group, chosen by you, who went looking for evidence to support your assertation -- I think we both know where i'm going with this.

As for the capitalisation (I'm fine with either spelling  Smiley), do they also capitalize (see  Wink?) "man"? Genesis 2:7 (SAAS): "Then God formed man out of dust from the ground, and breathed in his face the breath of life; and man became a living soul". If not, then they are either just plain inconsistent or really do give higher respect to written revelation than they do to man who is actually created in the image of God.
I'll give you this one as the reason does sound a bit lame.
« Last Edit: October 31, 2011, 08:01:36 PM by FountainPen » Logged

None of us can have as many virtues as the fountain pen, or half its cussedness; but we can try. Mark Twain
FountainPen
Is not wasting any more of her ink
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Posts: 1,025



« Reply #61 on: October 31, 2011, 08:08:16 PM »

It's not even really the "future" of Protestantism. It's the pietistic impulse of the past reinvigorated by modern man's desire for intellectual assent to everything first and foremost. We couldn't find answers, etc. I must've overlooked the parts of the Bible and the ECFs that treat the faith as a matter of head knowledge above all...and the part where you can just keep forming new groups until you're comfortable.

Oh for goodness' sake!

Too close to home, eh? I was a Protestant, too. My family was also one that "couldn't find answers" in the church we were in (i.e., couldn't get along with the pastor), and because of that left with several other families who had reached the same conclusion. I know well this impulse.  I've been there. It's not a foundation on which to build a Christian community.

We didn't leave for that reason. I said that we haven't been able to join somewhere new because of it.

The leader and his wife who left had been there 14 years and left because of a serious accusation against them which they would not validate by defending themselves and were deemed guilty by silence. Those that left with them with were those who knew the accusation to be untrue.

Having said that, i have known people who have done exactly what you describe.
Logged

None of us can have as many virtues as the fountain pen, or half its cussedness; but we can try. Mark Twain
FountainPen
Is not wasting any more of her ink
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Posts: 1,025



« Reply #62 on: October 31, 2011, 08:29:41 PM »

Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!

Certainly. Anything else you all want me to include? Smileys? Anecdotes? Vitriol? Malware etc.?

Funny, you've been spiteful, sarcastic, dismissive, and vitriolic across this forum and you're suddenly wondering why folks returning you the favor?
I think you missed my reply to minasoliman.

I don't agree that i have been spiteful. I'd like a quote please, where you feel i've been spiteful. It's not okay to throw out a serious accusation like that and not provide the quote. If i have been spiteful of course i'll apologise.

I think my humour has been misunderstood on occasions or i've failed to use smileys to make it clear when i wasn't being serious.

If you come to an Orthodox forum to defend heresies, perhaps you should have a bit more sense of humor or diplomatic humility, because you can't brow beat us or box our ears into agreeing or making apologies for Protestant,
I've definitely not brow beaten anyone. I've conceded several issues and said i'd have to think about others. I'm working my way through every post that someone makes in reply to something i've asked, many of which are quite long and complicated. I've also apologised many times for misunderstandings.

We are quite deeply sorry that Protestants have been duped into believing heresies, much like we have always been sorry for the heretics of all ages, but the Church stands for the Truth consistently, and all must adjust and conform to the Truth.  Whether or not Protestants then think of the Bible as the Word or word of God is then irrelevant, because their very ontological existence is a heresy.
It's not irrelevant to me. To me i have to consider one small step at a time. I'm sorry if that's not within your personal time scale of 'repentance' but it's all quite a lot to take on in a few weeks.

Why try to dust the mud off your shoulders, when your standing waste deep in muck?
None of us see the "muck" we're standing in unless the Lord opens our eyes to it. Until that time, we all continue on our way doing the best we can to learn what we each need to learn.
« Last Edit: October 31, 2011, 08:32:34 PM by FountainPen » Logged

None of us can have as many virtues as the fountain pen, or half its cussedness; but we can try. Mark Twain
dzheremi
No longer posting here.
Warned
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Coptic
Posts: 4,383


« Reply #63 on: October 31, 2011, 08:32:16 PM »

Quote
We didn't leave for that reason. I said that we haven't been able to join somewhere new because of it.

The leader and his wife who left had been there 14 years and left because of a serious accusation against them which they would not validate by defending themselves and were deemed guilty by silence. Those that left with them with were those who knew the accusation to be untrue.

I see. Strangely, there was a similar climate of accusations and assumed malfeasance behind the schism that occurred in the church that I was raised in. Sadly, I think such things would also be found in Orthodoxy given the frailty of people and the ease of accusation. So I would hope my point stands: It is not a foundation on which to found a Christian community. I sympathize with you and what I'm reading as a search on your part, but I also seem to recall that the idea that the personal moral worthiness of a priest affects the efficacy of his sacraments (which is the closest analogue I can come up with to the Protestant mindset that precipitates such splits, though I know it's not terribly accurate given the non-sacramental nature of the majority of Protestant denominations) is a Christian heresy which was rejected long, long ago. I can't recall the name of it right now, but I don't doubt that it should ring some bells with some people...
Logged

FountainPen
Is not wasting any more of her ink
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Posts: 1,025



« Reply #64 on: October 31, 2011, 08:37:46 PM »

Quote
We didn't leave for that reason. I said that we haven't been able to join somewhere new because of it.

The leader and his wife who left had been there 14 years and left because of a serious accusation against them which they would not validate by defending themselves and were deemed guilty by silence. Those that left with them with were those who knew the accusation to be untrue.

I see. Strangely, there was a similar climate of accusations and assumed malfeasance behind the schism that occurred in the church that I was raised in. Sadly, I think such things would also be found in Orthodoxy given the frailty of people and the ease of accusation. So I would hope my point stands: It is not a foundation on which to found a Christian community.

I agree it's not. no one left thinking to set up a new community or church. We left and since then we have been looking for churches to join either collectively or individually in different churches. Sadly that hasn't happened yet, so until it does, we meet together to encourage each other and to study.
Logged

None of us can have as many virtues as the fountain pen, or half its cussedness; but we can try. Mark Twain
dzheremi
No longer posting here.
Warned
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Coptic
Posts: 4,383


« Reply #65 on: October 31, 2011, 08:53:37 PM »

Ah, I see. Please forgive me for misunderstanding the original situation and hence jumping to conclusions. May God bless you in your journey.
Logged

FountainPen
Is not wasting any more of her ink
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Posts: 1,025



« Reply #66 on: October 31, 2011, 09:02:36 PM »

Ah, I see. Please forgive me for misunderstanding the original situation and hence jumping to conclusions. May God bless you in your journey.

It's not you, i think it's me not being clear enough.

Thanks for the blessing!
Logged

None of us can have as many virtues as the fountain pen, or half its cussedness; but we can try. Mark Twain
minasoliman
Mr., Sir, Dude, Guy, Male, tr. Minas in Greek, Menes in white people Egyptologists :-P
Section Moderator
Toumarches
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Oriental Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Coptic Orthodox Archdiocese of North America
Posts: 12,071


Strengthen O Lord the work of Your hands(Is 19:25)


WWW
« Reply #67 on: November 01, 2011, 01:00:18 AM »

Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!

Certainly. Anything else you all want me to include? Smileys? Anecdotes? Vitriol? Malware etc.?

Funny, you've been spiteful, sarcastic, dismissive, and vitriolic across this forum and you're suddenly wondering why folks returning you the favor?
I think you missed my reply to minasoliman.

I don't agree that i have been spiteful. I'd like a quote please, where you feel i've been spiteful. It's not okay to throw out a serious accusation like that and not provide the quote. If i have been spiteful of course i'll apologise.

I think my humour has been misunderstood on occasions or i've failed to use smileys to make it clear when i wasn't being serious.

If you come to an Orthodox forum to defend heresies, perhaps you should have a bit more sense of humor or diplomatic humility, because you can't brow beat us or box our ears into agreeing or making apologies for Protestant,
I've definitely not brow beaten anyone. I've conceded several issues and said i'd have to think about others. I'm working my way through every post that someone makes in reply to something i've asked, many of which are quite long and complicated. I've also apologised many times for misunderstandings.

We are quite deeply sorry that Protestants have been duped into believing heresies, much like we have always been sorry for the heretics of all ages, but the Church stands for the Truth consistently, and all must adjust and conform to the Truth.  Whether or not Protestants then think of the Bible as the Word or word of God is then irrelevant, because their very ontological existence is a heresy.
It's not irrelevant to me. To me i have to consider one small step at a time. I'm sorry if that's not within your personal time scale of 'repentance' but it's all quite a lot to take on in a few weeks.

Why try to dust the mud off your shoulders, when your standing waste deep in muck?
None of us see the "muck" we're standing in unless the Lord opens our eyes to it. Until that time, we all continue on our way doing the best we can to learn what we each need to learn.

A lot of misunderstandings can happen through text in forums.  But the clarification I thought was kind and non-offensive, and I do appreciate FountainPen's contributions here.
Logged

Vain existence can never exist, for \\\"unless the LORD builds the house, the builders labor in vain.\\\" (Psalm 127)

If the faith is unchanged and rock solid, then the gates of Hades never prevailed in the end.
PeterTheAleut
The Right Blowhard Peter the Furtive of Yetts O'Muckhart
Moderator
Protospatharios
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: OCA
Posts: 32,647


Lord, have mercy on the Christians in Mosul!


« Reply #68 on: November 01, 2011, 01:11:48 AM »

Quote
We didn't leave for that reason. I said that we haven't been able to join somewhere new because of it.

The leader and his wife who left had been there 14 years and left because of a serious accusation against them which they would not validate by defending themselves and were deemed guilty by silence. Those that left with them with were those who knew the accusation to be untrue.

I see. Strangely, there was a similar climate of accusations and assumed malfeasance behind the schism that occurred in the church that I was raised in. Sadly, I think such things would also be found in Orthodoxy given the frailty of people and the ease of accusation. So I would hope my point stands: It is not a foundation on which to found a Christian community. I sympathize with you and what I'm reading as a search on your part, but I also seem to recall that the idea that the personal moral worthiness of a priest affects the efficacy of his sacraments (which is the closest analogue I can come up with to the Protestant mindset that precipitates such splits, though I know it's not terribly accurate given the non-sacramental nature of the majority of Protestant denominations) is a Christian heresy which was rejected long, long ago. I can't recall the name of it right now, but I don't doubt that it should ring some bells with some people...
Donatism
Logged
dzheremi
No longer posting here.
Warned
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Coptic
Posts: 4,383


« Reply #69 on: November 01, 2011, 01:16:08 AM »

Ah, thank you! That's it.
Logged

genesisone
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Antioch
Posts: 2,501



« Reply #70 on: November 01, 2011, 07:28:38 AM »


I find it somewhat hard to believe that groups of people went to the work independently of each other to settle on an outline of their beliefs and it all came out random - yet the "random" order ended up with them all having the same first point. If I were a mathematician, I suppose I could work out the odds.

If you were to email those whose statements begin with who God is, do you think you'll get the response, "Random"?
Well now, given that it was a controlled group, chosen by you, who went looking for evidence to support your assertation -- I think we both know where i'm going with this.
No, I don't know where you're going. I can speculate, and I hope I'm not right.

First of all, don't blame me for "controlled group chosen by [me]". You wanted me to prove that there were groups who listed Scripture as the first point in their statement of beliefs. I did that. I simply gave you a few examples that I was able to find in less than ten minutes. You claimed to not have ten minutes to check for yourself. Nor did I ask you to email them for explanations. That was your choice.  What you did with the list was your own doing.

Since you are under the assumption that there is no particular order to the points in a statement of belief, can you provide examples of statements that begin with something other than "Who God is" or "the Scriptures"? In my experience it has been one or the other. That's not random. It indicates a mindset.

Please read my next question knowing that I have read your story of why you are not settled in a church home.* What about the church you left? What is their statement of beliefs? If you choose not to reveal the identity to avoid anyone's embarrassment, I do understand - but what about the churches that you and your friends have considered joining? Undoubtedly you have looked at their statements. Is there a pattern?

*Thank you for sharing further details of your story. It is easy to be hurt by those whom we have loved and trusted. Your openness and questions really are appreciated. They help me, too, to examine and define my own faith. I have often said, "The best way to get an answer is to ask a question."
Logged
Mivac
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: OCA
Posts: 247


« Reply #71 on: November 01, 2011, 08:29:58 AM »

I wouldn't say that the Bible is worshiped in the Orthodox church either.  In fact the proper word is veneration (proskinisis), so...(I thought terminology might be important for this particular discussion...clarity is good I think)

I never meant to say that we worship the Bible.  I did use the word "venerate".

At the same time, when a lot of Protestants keep saying "The Word of God" all the time referring to the Bible, and then jump back and talk about the "Word of God Incarnate" in Jesus simultaneously, I worry about what some Protestants think, not all, as if there's a connection that should be considered, which is probably why they think nothing else should be "venerated."

God bless.

I have spoken to protestants in some circle who equate the Scriptures to Christ Himself, the Logos.
Logged
FountainPen
Is not wasting any more of her ink
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Posts: 1,025



« Reply #72 on: November 01, 2011, 12:13:03 PM »


I find it somewhat hard to believe that groups of people went to the work independently of each other to settle on an outline of their beliefs and it all came out random - yet the "random" order ended up with them all having the same first point. If I were a mathematician, I suppose I could work out the odds.

If you were to email those whose statements begin with who God is, do you think you'll get the response, "Random"?
Well now, given that it was a controlled group, chosen by you, who went looking for evidence to support your assertation -- I think we both know where i'm going with this.
No, I don't know where you're going. I can speculate, and I hope I'm not right.
You're making the point that many, (yes 'many') of the para-church organisation had scripture listed first in their 'credal statements' or Statements of Faith and you're gasping at the oddness if indeed the lists are as 'random' as they say.

Where was i going? If you chose the groups specifically with the intention of finding scripture listed before God, then it's hardly a fair list to judge the 'randomness' of it.

First of all, don't blame me for "controlled group chosen by [me]".
No blame. I'm just saying it's not a fair representation of a random list.

You claimed to not have ten minutes to check for yourself.
It wasn't my responsibility; your words needed citations.

Nor did I ask you to email them for explanations. That was your choice.  What you did with the list was your own doing.
I agree.

Since you are under the assumption that there is no particular order to the points in a statement of belief, can you provide examples of statements that begin with something other than "Who God is" or "the Scriptures"? In my experience it has been one or the other. That's not random. It indicates a mindset.
No. My only objective was to prove the assumptions (yours) unfounded. Since most have emailed me back and said that they are in "no particular order" i'm satisfied that this particular list of credal like statements, are not as they first appear.

Please read my next question knowing that I have read your story of why you are not settled in a church home.* What about the church you left? What is their statement of beliefs? If you choose not to reveal the identity to avoid anyone's embarrassment, I do understand - but what about the churches that you and your friends have considered joining? Undoubtedly you have looked at their statements. Is there a pattern?
Those are fair questions and i'll post them in a while.

« Last Edit: November 01, 2011, 12:16:28 PM by FountainPen » Logged

None of us can have as many virtues as the fountain pen, or half its cussedness; but we can try. Mark Twain
FountainPen
Is not wasting any more of her ink
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Posts: 1,025



« Reply #73 on: November 01, 2011, 01:13:17 PM »

For genesisone:

First church some of us went to -- top three -- no numbers beside them

We believe in one God, the Father Almighty, Maker of heaven and earth. (Deut 6:4 , Gen1:1)

We believe in the Lord Jesus Christ, the Son of God who is both true God and true man. We believe in his all sufficient sacrifice for sin by his death on the cross, his bodily resurrection, his ascension into heaven and his coming again in glory. (John 1:1-5 , Heb 4:14-15 , 1Cor 15:3-4, Acts 1:9-11 )

We believe in the Holy Spirit who is one with the Father and the Son in the Godhead. We believe that he indwells every Christian believer and is the source of our spiritual life, obedience to God and Christ like behaviour. (1Cor 2:10-13, John 14:16-17 , Rom 8:9-11 , 5-8)


The church we came from cite the Nicene Creed

Another church two of our members tried for a year. They don't have a statement but they do have this below:

"(church name) is a worshipping, witnessing community, faithful to the good news of Jesus Christ.
By God’s grace we are seeking to follow Jesus, eager to be joyfully sharing the gospel
and committed to serving others.
"

Top three of another we attended:

We believe that the Scriptures of the Old and New Testaments were given by inspiration of God, and that they only constitute the Divine rule of Christian faith and practice.

We believe that there is only one God, who is infinitely perfect, the Creator, Preserver, and Governor of all things, and who is the only proper object of religious worship.

We believe that there are three persons in the Godhead - the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost, undivided in essence and co-equal in power and glory.



Top three listed under Beliefs of another church we attended briefly

The Trinity

    There is one God, the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, a unity of three co-eternal Persons usually called the Trinity. God the Father is the Creator, Source, Sustainer, and Sovereign of all creation. God the eternal Son became incarnate in Jesus Christ, through Whom all things were created; the character of God is revealed; the salvation of humanity is accomplished; and the world is judged. God the Holy Spirit draws men and women to Himself and gives spiritual gifts to the Church.

Christ our Hope

    In Christ's life of perfect obedience to God's will, His suffering, death, and resurrection, God provided the only means of atonement for human sin, so that those who by faith accept this atonement have eternal life.

Christ's Return

    The second coming of Christ is the blessed hope of the Church, the grand climax of the Gospel. His coming will be literal, personal, visible, and world-wide. When He returns the righteous dead will be resurrected and together with the righteous living will be glorified and taken to heaven. The unrighteous - those who have rejected divine grace - will die.



I'm not sure how many you want, we have tried quite a few churches. I'll give another two.



Under Vision and Values (no statements listed)

"World transformation begins with individual salvation. Transformed people transform society and we understand from the gospels that the best way this is achieved is through the breaking in of God’s kingdom into our lives; the signs of God's kingdom are healing, release from spiritual bondage, miracles, spiritual gifts and, most significantly, salvation. Salvation provides access to God, a place in his family, life after death and a role in his continuing mission on earth - that all peoples will know him and praise him eternally."

Last one. This is all they had in terms of a statement
We do not share a fixed set of beliefs and you do not need to be a (member) to worship with us at one of our meetings. (Our) faith is expressed through action and we are most widely known for our work for peace.

(My words replaced the church name)

3 of the churches we attended didn't have anything even closely related to statements or beliefs.



A Fairly mixed bunch.

Only posted because genesisone asked for a wider range of church beliefs and statements to see how many listed scripture above God and also to see if any could give us insight into the accusation that Protestants conflate The Word (Jesus), and the word of God (The Bible).

« Last Edit: November 01, 2011, 01:16:01 PM by FountainPen » Logged

None of us can have as many virtues as the fountain pen, or half its cussedness; but we can try. Mark Twain
genesisone
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Antioch
Posts: 2,501



« Reply #74 on: November 01, 2011, 03:14:09 PM »


A Fairly mixed bunch.

Only posted because genesisone asked for a wider range of church beliefs and statements to see how many listed scripture above God and also to see if any could give us insight into the accusation that Protestants conflate The Word (Jesus), and the word of God (The Bible).


Thank you for your work.* It does illustrate my point. I was looking only at statements of belief - yes, quite aware that many denominations and organizations don't publish that sort of list. Here's the beginning of an interesting article that addresses the importance of a creed:
Quote
We live in non-creedal age. By and large, conservative Christendom diminishes the importance of creedal symbols. As a matter of fact, many non-creedalists do not dismiss creeds simply as unimportant to the maintenance of biblical Christianity, they deem them to be positively antithetical to it. Such a position would better be termed "anti-creedal."
While I do agree with the writer's basic points in this article, there are a few points where we would differ (and further discussion on that is definitely outside the direction of this thread  Wink).

But did you notice that the churches you quoted that did provide a statement were one or the other of the two types that I mentioned earlier?

BTW, most denominations and organizations whose websites I have looked at over the years, like the ones you cited, did include something along the lines of "vision", "mission", or "core values".

Getting back to article cited above: the author doesn't discuss anything like an order of statements. However he does say this:
Quote
There are also broader socio-cultural implications that flow forth from creedalism. But these are beyond the purview of the present study.
This is where differences would play out between those who are of an academic bent and those who aren't. What the "professional theologians" think and say is not necessarily the mindset of the ordinary pew-warmer. For some people, an order to the statements is important, for others, not so much.

*I appreciate seeing how seriously you are looking into these things and am honoured that you are trusting me to answer your questions as carefully and honestly as I can. I wish you well in your journey.
Logged
FountainPen
Is not wasting any more of her ink
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Posts: 1,025



« Reply #75 on: November 01, 2011, 07:06:48 PM »

I've just finished reading the article, it's written well and certainly makes a case for creeds. I would have to focus more on unity being Christ rather than centering around statements about Christ.

Quote
But did you notice that the churches you quoted that did provide a statement were one or the other of the two types that I mentioned earlier?
yes

Thanks for the generous comments as well as the discussion.
« Last Edit: November 01, 2011, 07:07:57 PM by FountainPen » Logged

None of us can have as many virtues as the fountain pen, or half its cussedness; but we can try. Mark Twain
HabteSelassie
Ises and I-ity
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Oriental Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Ethiopian Orthodox Tewahedo Church
Posts: 3,332



« Reply #76 on: November 01, 2011, 08:54:22 PM »

Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!

FountainPen, I am posting this publicly to respond to your PM asking such, and because you have taken my comments to heart.  I am sorry if I am being myself misunderstood or if you were being misunderstood, but the general tone of a lot of your posts on various threads has been as I said before, either sarcastic, dismissive, or vitriolic. (this means you've either joked to far with a persons' serious response to your questions, outright dismissed their response, or worse we purposefully antagonistic to their response when people here are just trying to share Orthodox with you)  I am not going to dig up a bunch of examples, my point was not to defame or slander you, rather to point out that your attitude seems to need readjusting, and perhaps ours also.  So I stand by my statement, some of your posts have come across, at least to me and clearly to others, as needlessly and personally hostile, and that is what I was trying to address in my response above.

We are all Christians here, but you have to understand that this is an Orthodox forum, and whether we or you like it or not, your position will always be on the defense, just please, don't get so defensive Wink

stay blessed,
habte selassie
Logged

"Yet stand aloof from stupid questionings and geneologies and strifes and fightings about law, for they are without benefit and vain." Titus 3:10
FountainPen
Is not wasting any more of her ink
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Posts: 1,025



« Reply #77 on: November 02, 2011, 05:50:28 AM »

Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!

FountainPen, I am posting this publicly to respond to your PM asking such, and because you have taken my comments to heart.  I am sorry if I am being myself misunderstood or if you were being misunderstood, but the general tone of a lot of your posts on various threads has been as I said before, either sarcastic, dismissive, or vitriolic. (this means you've either joked to far with a persons' serious response to your questions, outright dismissed their response, or worse we purposefully antagonistic to their response when people here are just trying to share Orthodox with you)  I am not going to dig up a bunch of examples, my point was not to defame or slander you, rather to point out that your attitude seems to need readjusting, and perhaps ours also.  So I stand by my statement, some of your posts have come across, at least to me and clearly to others, as needlessly and personally hostile, and that is what I was trying to address in my response above.

We are all Christians here, but you have to understand that this is an Orthodox forum, and whether we or you like it or not, your position will always be on the defense, just please, don't get so defensive Wink

stay blessed,
habte selassie

I accept most of what your explaining and i won't quibble about the rest.

I can get defensive it's true, especiallly when someone's told they're wrong in a belief and it's something you've based the weight of your faith on. It's like someone saying that you're not a Christian when you know you love God with as much as you have inside you. You're right though, this is an Orthodox forum and that puts me automatically on the defense so i'll remember that when i formulate a reply in future. This is the Orthodox/Protestant part of the forum though so, hopefully there's a bit more allowance in here for views from both sides.

Okay, i've quibbled a bit [/humour]

I apologise for my sarcasm going a bit too far. [/serious]

Logged

None of us can have as many virtues as the fountain pen, or half its cussedness; but we can try. Mark Twain
Ionnis
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: ROCOR
Posts: 1,071



« Reply #78 on: November 21, 2011, 11:01:18 PM »

Forgive me for resurrecting an old thread, but it came to mind tonight.  Originally, when I saw this thread, I was a bit irritated by it.  I thought that it was ridiculous that anyone would suggest that someone would ever think to speak of the Scriptures and Our Lord as if they were one and the same.  Then lo and behold, I turned on my TV tonight and a televangelist named Jesse Duplantis was on and he was speaking about how when men, theologians like himself, write things down their words immediately become "fossilized", but the word of God (the Scriptures) is different, it is a "living, breathing text...it is alive!"  He then said, "Remember folks, 'In the Beginning was the Word!" and he raised up the Bible.  Then pointing at it he said, "This is Jesus Christ [pause] in written form!" Wow.  Who knew?  Well besides some of you on here... Smiley
« Last Edit: November 21, 2011, 11:02:26 PM by Ionnis » Logged

"If you cannot find Christ in the beggar at the church door, you will not find Him in the chalice.”  -The Divine John Chrysostom

“Till we can become divine, we must be content to be human, lest in our hurry for change we sink to something lower.” -Anthony Trollope
jewish voice
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Posts: 559



« Reply #79 on: November 21, 2011, 11:07:55 PM »

It's not that old yet lol  an yeah your right thats very odd to even say what that preacher said that the bible is Jesus. That guy is also a bit of a wind bag I heard him a few times an if you listen he changes his wind bag stories 5 or 6 times before he's done preaching so you can tell he makes them all up 
Logged
akimori makoto
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Non-heretical Christian
Jurisdiction: Fully-sik-hektic archdiocese of Australia, bro
Posts: 3,126

No-one bound by fleshly pleasures is worthy ...


« Reply #80 on: November 22, 2011, 11:31:09 PM »

Forgive me for resurrecting an old thread, but it came to mind tonight.  Originally, when I saw this thread, I was a bit irritated by it.  I thought that it was ridiculous that anyone would suggest that someone would ever think to speak of the Scriptures and Our Lord as if they were one and the same.  Then lo and behold, I turned on my TV tonight and a televangelist named Jesse Duplantis was on and he was speaking about how when men, theologians like himself, write things down their words immediately become "fossilized", but the word of God (the Scriptures) is different, it is a "living, breathing text...it is alive!"  He then said, "Remember folks, 'In the Beginning was the Word!" and he raised up the Bible.  Then pointing at it he said, "This is Jesus Christ [pause] in written form!" Wow.  Who knew?  Well besides some of you on here... Smiley

Wow, it's worse than I thought ...
Logged

The Episcopallian road is easy and wide, for many go through it to find destruction. lol sorry channeling Isa.
Jason.Wike
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Posts: 1,046


« Reply #81 on: November 26, 2011, 03:49:42 AM »

I actually have heard some Protestants refer to the Bible as the "Word of God" as in the Logos in the Gospel of John sense before (saying John 1 referred to the Bible) and have heard of others doing so.
« Last Edit: November 26, 2011, 03:58:25 AM by Jason.Wike » Logged
Tikhon29605
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Posts: 532


May I become Thy Tabernacle through Communion.


« Reply #82 on: November 26, 2011, 04:09:03 AM »

I just looked at the Augsburg Confession, the Confession of Faith for the Lutherans, and its first article is about God and who God is.  So you could said that the Lutherans, the very first Protestants historically, do put God first in their confession.  Interestingly, I looked through the entire Augsburg Confession and noticed that it doesn't have a single section devoted exclusively to the Bible.  The Lutherans were more concerned with the interpretation of the Bible
over against Rome than in debating the actual text of the Bible. Even after Martin Luther made his own translation of the Bible, he still kept all of the books of the Catholic Bible in it, but he put the Deuterocanonicals in a separate section between the Old and New Testament. Luther, unlike the Calvinists or the later English Puritans, never demonized those books and referred to them as "good and useful to read."

Just goes to show you that all Protestants aren't the same.
Logged
FountainPen
Is not wasting any more of her ink
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Posts: 1,025



« Reply #83 on: November 26, 2011, 04:14:39 AM »

I actually have heard some Protestants refer to the Bible as the "Word of God" as in the Logos in the Gospel of John sense before (saying John 1 referred to the Bible) and have heard of others doing so.

It's difficult to differentiate between the word of God and The Word of God when you hear it in conversation unless you asked them, in each case, to clarify.
Logged

None of us can have as many virtues as the fountain pen, or half its cussedness; but we can try. Mark Twain
Jason.Wike
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Posts: 1,046


« Reply #84 on: November 26, 2011, 01:44:45 PM »

I actually have heard some Protestants refer to the Bible as the "Word of God" as in the Logos in the Gospel of John sense before (saying John 1 referred to the Bible) and have heard of others doing so.

It's difficult to differentiate between the word of God and The Word of God when you hear it in conversation unless you asked them, in each case, to clarify.

And like I said, in the case I was talking about they said "Logos" in John refers to the Bible - which it doesn't, and does mean they think John literally reads "In the beginning was the Bible, and the Bible was with God, and the Bible was God."
Logged
FountainPen
Is not wasting any more of her ink
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Posts: 1,025



« Reply #85 on: November 26, 2011, 08:33:42 PM »

I actually have heard some Protestants refer to the Bible as the "Word of God" as in the Logos in the Gospel of John sense before (saying John 1 referred to the Bible) and have heard of others doing so.

It's difficult to differentiate between the word of God and The Word of God when you hear it in conversation unless you asked them, in each case, to clarify.

And like I said, in the case I was talking about they said "Logos" in John refers to the Bible - which it doesn't, and does mean they think John literally reads "In the beginning was the Bible, and the Bible was with God, and the Bible was God."

There's always one person somewhere who is going to have misunderstood the teaching.
Logged

None of us can have as many virtues as the fountain pen, or half its cussedness; but we can try. Mark Twain
Jason.Wike
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Posts: 1,046


« Reply #86 on: November 27, 2011, 12:13:47 AM »

I actually have heard some Protestants refer to the Bible as the "Word of God" as in the Logos in the Gospel of John sense before (saying John 1 referred to the Bible) and have heard of others doing so.

It's difficult to differentiate between the word of God and The Word of God when you hear it in conversation unless you asked them, in each case, to clarify.

And like I said, in the case I was talking about they said "Logos" in John refers to the Bible - which it doesn't, and does mean they think John literally reads "In the beginning was the Bible, and the Bible was with God, and the Bible was God."

There's always one person somewhere who is going to have misunderstood the teaching.

Make it at least 3 for me (+I've heard of 3 others who have also heard it and there's another example in this thread I just saw, that someone saw on tv).
« Last Edit: November 27, 2011, 12:14:00 AM by Jason.Wike » Logged
Tags: icons veneration saints relics Bible 
Pages: 1 2 All   Go Up
  Print  
 
Jump to:  

Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP Powered by SMF 1.1.18 | SMF © 2013, Simple Machines Valid XHTML 1.0! Valid CSS!
Page created in 0.304 seconds with 115 queries.