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Author Topic: Happy 1724 :-)  (Read 4692 times) Average Rating: 0
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minasoliman
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« on: September 11, 2007, 12:11:02 AM »

If anyone can ship me some dates to WV, I'd greatly appreciate it  Grin

PS  I just realized this is a leap year, and Coptic New Year isn't until 9/12 this year
PSS Happy Early New Year  Tongue
« Last Edit: September 11, 2007, 12:13:07 AM by minasoliman » Logged

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« Reply #1 on: September 11, 2007, 08:15:26 AM »

Happy New Year to you too Wink

Enqu tatash enquan dehenah metash!!! Cool
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« Reply #2 on: September 11, 2007, 09:12:42 AM »

You're correct Mina, today, the 1th, is the Eve of the Coptic New Year for this particular year. Here is the Thanksgiving Prayer (a proper translation of it!) that Copts recite anually on this Eve:

Quote
Come all you faithful people, who have been purchased by the pure Blood of our Lord, and Savior Jesus Christ. Let us glorify Him for that which He has bestowed upon us out of His Benevolence and Goodness, and for that which He has given us in abundance from the richness of His Blessings. He brought us till this day, the last day of the Coptic year, healthy and steadfast in the Faith, and has preserved us in the footsteps of our Holy Fathers. We greatly thank Him for He did not deal with us according to our woeful deeds, but remained with us, and kept us till this hour in peace, patiently awaiting our return to Him in repentance so that He might grant us the forgiveness of sins.

Let us weep, therefore, before Him with deep sighs for the transgressions and sins that we have committed. Let us repent from the depths of our hearts from our iniquities and trespasses, and commit ourselves before Him to live pure and chaste lives. We ask Him to strengthen us in the True Faith, to preserve us from the snares of Satan, to grant us His perfect peace, and to the repose the souls of our departed ones, through the intercessions of the Virgin Lady St. Mary, and all the angels and saints.

Glory, Honor, and Worship are due to Our God, now and forever, and unto the age of ages. Amen.
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« Reply #3 on: September 11, 2007, 11:15:49 AM »

Happy New Year to all!!!

For Ethiopia it is not only the New Year (Sept. 12) (normally Sept. 11) but also the Millennium 2000.

God Bless Ethiopia..Amen

Deacon Amde
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« Reply #4 on: September 12, 2007, 02:52:25 AM »

Happy New Year to all!!!

For Ethiopia it is not only the New Year (Sept. 12) (normally Sept. 11) but also the Millennium 2000.

God Bless Ethiopia..Amen

Deacon Amde

Happy 2000 to our brothers the Ethiopians:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/africa/6990298.stm

PS  NOW, Happy 1724  Smiley
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« Reply #5 on: September 12, 2007, 06:04:03 AM »

Mina,

You’re a little too excited there buddy about the New Year.  Cheesy  Nah it is really refreshing to see someone showing such enthusiasm about the Coptic (OO) New Year, and likewise Happy New Years to you and everyone else.

On a different note I hope someone can shed some light on my inquiry about why it is that Copts are ringing in the year 1724 while Ethiopia is celebrating its millennium even though we both technically use the same calendar?  Also does that mean that each OO church is celebrating a different year, and are EO churches the same way?

Thanks in advance!
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« Reply #6 on: September 12, 2007, 08:45:19 AM »

joyisgod, the Coptic calendar uses AM dates (that is from the Year of the Martyrs) whereas the Ethiopian calendar dates from the date of Christ's birth before the year was recalculated.

The calendars are slightly different in the naming of months yet I seem to recall that both begin in September as (and please correct me if I am wrong on this anyone) it is believed that the world was created at this time of year.
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« Reply #7 on: September 12, 2007, 08:46:25 AM »

God Bless Ethiopia

Amen.
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« Reply #8 on: September 12, 2007, 10:18:29 AM »

Mina,

You’re a little too excited there buddy about the New Year.  Cheesy  Nah it is really refreshing to see someone showing such enthusiasm about the Coptic (OO) New Year, and likewise Happy New Years to you and everyone else.


Due to the lack of any Coptic Church around where I study, I tend to not take things for granted anymore.  I guess that explains my excitement.   Smiley
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« Reply #9 on: September 12, 2007, 10:19:42 AM »

Also does that mean that each OO church is celebrating a different year, and are EO churches the same way?

This Friday is September 1st according to the Julian calendar, and therefore the start of the EO Church Year. According to the Byzantine calendar, it is the beginning of the year 7515 (after the creation).
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« Reply #10 on: September 13, 2007, 12:06:04 AM »

joyisgod, the Coptic calendar uses AM dates (that is from the Year of the Martyrs) whereas the Ethiopian calendar dates from the date of Christ's birth before the year was recalculated.

The calendars are slightly different in the naming of months yet I seem to recall that both begin in September as (and please correct me if I am wrong on this anyone) it is believed that the world was created at this time of year.

I am not sure if creation of the world can be traced to this month.

Good question.

I want to clarify that the new year Sept 12, 2007 is a 'national' holiday for us. It is not only a church holiday alone. The gregorian calendar is 'tolerated' in Ethiopia. We are very unexcepting of its legitimacy.
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« Reply #11 on: September 14, 2007, 09:07:11 AM »

Considering that Orthodox11 agrees that the Church's new year is at this time of year because the world was created at this time (as the Anglican Ussher and those called Jews also assert), it seems fairly believable that this is so.

Amdetsion, quite right to reject the Gregorian calendar although please realise that it was created with the good intentions of re-aligning the calendar with the seasons.
Nonetheless, I much prefer the Old Calendar and am somewhat puzzled as to why some Orthodox Churches in the West wish to change to the Gregorian Huh
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« Reply #12 on: September 14, 2007, 09:13:05 AM »

Technically, not the Gregorian, but a more astronomically accurate one that looks like the Gregorian.
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« Reply #13 on: September 14, 2007, 09:30:36 AM »

Technically, not the Gregorian, but a more astronomically accurate one that looks like the Gregorian.

Sorry but what do you mean exactly? Are you talking about how they change the clock by one second every few years?
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« Reply #14 on: September 14, 2007, 09:42:04 AM »

Sorry but what do you mean exactly? Are you talking about how they change the clock by one second every few years?
No. The calculations of the 'Revised Julian calendar" - the New Calendar are more exacting than the Gregorian, but the difference is so slight as to make the two appear identical.
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« Reply #15 on: September 16, 2007, 07:42:12 AM »

No. The calculations of the 'Revised Julian calendar" - the New Calendar are more exacting than the Gregorian, but the difference is so slight as to make the two appear identical.

Would you please be able to explain more of this to me?
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« Reply #16 on: September 16, 2007, 06:32:07 PM »

Would you please be able to explain more of this to me?

My celestial mechanics mathematics is very rusty, and so I'll have to locate a piece on the Internet detailing this- it IS an anti-Old Calendarist article, so be prepared to see some dust raised soon.
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« Reply #17 on: September 16, 2007, 09:27:16 PM »

My celestial mechanics mathematics is very rusty, and so I'll have to locate a piece on the Internet detailing this- it IS an anti-Old Calendarist article, so be prepared to see some dust raised soon.
I'm pretty certain that Αριστοκλής will provide something more detailed than this, but this article from OrthodoxWiki is a good start:
http://orthodoxwiki.org/Revised_Julian_Calendar

One important key to note in the article is that the Revised Julian Calendar will begin to differ from the Gregorian Calendar in 2800.  If my math is correct, the difference between the two calendars appears to be 7 days every 3200 years.
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« Reply #18 on: September 17, 2007, 10:39:35 AM »

Thank you for this link however I don't understand the last paragraph?
If the new astronomical rule for Pascha was adopted then how come everybody rejected it?

To clarify, does this mean that the years work like this on the Revised Julian Calendar compared with the Gregorian:

Year   RJC      Gregorian
100    Not Leap Year   Not Leap Year
200    Leap Year   Not Leap Year
300    Not Leap Year   Not Leap Year
400    Not Leap Year   Leap Year
500   Not Leap Year   Not Leap Year
600   Leap Year   Not Leap Year
700   Not Leap Year   Not Leap Year
800   Not Leap Year   Leap Year
900   Not Leap Year   Not Leap Year
1000   Not Leap Year   Not Leap Year
1100   Leap Year   Not Leap Year
1200   Not Leap Year   Leap Year
1300   Not Leap Year   Not Leap Year
1400   Not Leap Year   Not Leap Year
1500   Leap Year   Not Leap Year
1600   Not Leap Year   Leap Year
1700   Not Leap Year   Not Leap Year
1800   Not Leap Year   Not Leap Year
1900   Not Leap Year   Not Leap Year
2000   Leap Year   Leap Year
2100   Not Leap Year   Not Leap Year
2200   Not Leap Year   Not Leap Year
2300   Not Leap Year   Not Leap Year
2400   Leap Year   Leap Year
2500   Not Leap Year   Not Leap Year
2600   Not Leap Year   Not Leap Year
2700   Not Leap Year   Not Leap Year
2800   Not Leap Year   Leap Year
2900   Leap Year   Not Leap Year
3000   Not Leap Year   Not Leap Year

(Hopefully the tabs in that will work!)
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« Reply #19 on: September 17, 2007, 11:56:41 PM »

Thank you for this link however I don't understand the last paragraph?
If the new astronomical rule for Pascha was adopted then how come everybody rejected it?
In a nutshell, those who advocated calendar reform saw it important to at least keep the Church united around a common celebration of Pascha.  The biggest problem is that the proposed new Paschalion would occasionally require us to celebrate Pascha before or with the Jewish Passover, which strikes at the heart of a common interpretation of the Nicene rule that Pascha is never to be celebrated before the vernal equinox and/or together with the Passover--many have traditionally interpreted this to mean that we are never to celebrate Pascha before or with the Jews.
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« Reply #20 on: September 18, 2007, 12:46:08 AM »

In a nutshell, those who advocated calendar reform saw it important to at least keep the Church united around a common celebration of Pascha.  The biggest problem is that the proposed new Paschalion would occasionally require us to celebrate Pascha before or with the Jewish Passover, which strikes at the heart of a common interpretation of the Nicene rule that Pascha is never to be celebrated before the vernal equinox and/or together with the Passover--many have traditionally interpreted this to mean that we are never to celebrate Pascha before or with the Jews.

Interestingly enough, Armenians, Indians, and Syrian Indians in the US celebrate the Pascha in the Western Gregorian calendar.
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« Reply #21 on: September 22, 2007, 07:34:31 PM »

My celestial mechanics mathematics is very rusty, and so I'll have to locate a piece on the Internet detailing this- it IS an anti-Old Calendarist article, so be prepared to see some dust raised soon.

I almost forgot to follow through on this one. I might have to retract my statement that the Revised Julian Calendar is more accurate than the Gregorian astronomically because I cannot find the article which went to great depth proving this. I was able to find another article (which I also recalled my bookmarking at the same time back when we had the last in-depth calendar discussions) which states the following (excerpt):
Quote
Firstly: If we open any high-school textbook on cosmography we will see on the subject of calendars the difference between the Gregorian and Julian Calendars from a purely calendarist point of view.

In other words, we know that one year is made up from precisely 365.242217 solar days. The length of the civil year based on the Julian Calendar is 365 days and 1/4 of a day, because every 4 years one day is added, namely the 29th of February. Therefore the Julian Calendar exceeds the true year, i.e. is greater than the true year, by 365.25 - 365.242217 = 0.007783 solar days. This difference within a period of 400 years comes to 3.1132 days. Therefore the true date falls short by 3.1132 days every 400 years. In order to correct this error, Pope Gregory XIII, with the aid of the astronomer Lillio, ordered the day after the 4th of October 1582 to be called 15th of October and not 5th of October. In order that this error would not be repeated in future, he also ordered that in a period of 400 years they should not take 100 leap years, as is done by the Julian Calendar, but only 100 -3 = 97. Thus, according to the Gregorian Calendar, in a period of 400 years the date falls short now only by 0.1132 days.

4,000 years must pass before the date falls short by 1.132 days.

In order to correct the Julian Calendar, Pope Gregory ordered that the years of the centuries (i.e. 1600, 1700, 1800) are not leap years unless the number of hundreds is divisible by 4. Thus, the year 1600 was a leap year according to the Gregorian Calendar, because the number of hundreds 16 is divisible by 4; according to the Julian Calendar it is still a leap year because the whole number 1600 is divisible by 4. However, the years 1700, 1800, 1900 are leap years according to the Julian Calendar, because these numbers, 1700, 1800, 1900, are divisible by 4, whereas they are not leap years for the Gregorian Calendar, because the numbers of the hundreds, namely 17, 18 and 19, are not divisible by 4.

Thus, after 1600 years that have passed approximately since the First Oecumenical Synod, we the NCs, since we follow the Julian Calendar and will have as leap years those years that are divisible by 4, we will have a new difference of 13 days, whereas the Gregorian Calendar will not have such a difference, because every 400 years it will have 97 leap years and not 100.

http://www.eastern-orthodoxy.com/calendar.htm

This piece is a New Calendar apologetic one (and it is polemical against the Old Calendarists) but, as one can read above, it says the old and new calenaders are BOTH Julian with the 'New" being a 'Revised one - revised in that the 13 day vernal equinox difference was only adjusted OUT with the 'new' and that the underlying calendar is still Julian and with the same out-of-sync astronomically speaking being in effect. Hence, in 1600 years the "New" calendar will again be 13 days out while the "Old" will have grown to 26.

I must see if I can find that other piece with the algorithms for the Revised Julian calendar.
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« Reply #22 on: September 22, 2007, 10:54:12 PM »

This piece is a New Calendar apologetic one (and it is polemical against the Old Calendarists) but, as one can read above, it says the old and new calenaders are BOTH Julian with the 'New" being a 'Revised one - revised in that the 13 day vernal equinox difference was only adjusted OUT with the 'new' and that the underlying calendar is still Julian and with the same out-of-sync astronomically speaking being in effect. Hence, in 1600 years the "New" calendar will again be 13 days out while the "Old" will have grown to 26.
Actually, I think you overlooked in the above article a very important algorithm that makes the Gregorian Calendar truly different from the Julian Calendar.  The difference is that the Julian Calendar still has 100 leap years every 400 years, while the Gregorian Calendar has only 97 leap years during the same 400 years.  Following the Gregorian algorithm, the calendar will fall 7 days out-of-sync with the astronomical vernal equinox every 3200 years, while the Julian Calendar will fall another 24 days out during the same span of time.
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« Reply #23 on: September 23, 2007, 01:18:14 AM »

How did I overlook that? It's in the linked article and is just the same result of the algorithm applied over a different period.
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« Reply #24 on: September 23, 2007, 02:44:06 AM »

How did I overlook that? It's in the linked article and is just the same result of the algorithm applied over a different period.
Upon further review, I find that you are right about the article, but I think the article is grossly inaccurate regarding the nature of the Revised Julian Calendar we New Calendarists follow.  Yes, it differs from the Gregorian Calendar, but, no, the difference isn't merely the 13-day shift made in 1582.

Another way of putting this difference:  the Julian Calendar falls 3 more days out of sync with the Gregorian Calendar every 400 years, because the Julian has 100 leap years every 400 years, while the Gregorian has only 97.  However, the Gregorian Calendar will fall 7 days further out of sync with the Revised Julian Calendar, the real New Calendar, every 3200 years, because the Gregorian has [97 x 8 =] 776 leap years every 3200 years, while the Revised Julian has only 769.
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« Reply #25 on: September 23, 2007, 09:31:03 AM »

Yes, I see that.
As I said, I'm not sure about this article - it may well be partially representing the issue to enhance it's stance.

I think the upshot of it is basically - the New Calendar is NOT the Gregorian. As such, my own past use here of such phrases as, "The Revised Julian Calendar is a clone of the Gregorian" are wrong.

Perhaps we could split this topic?
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« Reply #26 on: September 24, 2007, 12:47:06 AM »

Yes, I see that.
As I said, I'm not sure about this article - it may well be partially representing the issue to enhance it's stance.

I think the upshot of it is basically - the New Calendar is NOT the Gregorian. As such, my own past use here of such phrases as, "The Revised Julian Calendar is a clone of the Gregorian" are wrong.

Perhaps we could split this topic?
If you want to.  I don't think I have any more to contribute to this tangent, though.
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« Reply #27 on: September 24, 2007, 07:10:51 PM »

This for Didymus: the explanation I was looking for:

http://www.stjohndc.org/Russian/english.htm

under "Foundation of Orthodoxy" -

'The Julian, Gregorian , and Revised Julian Calendars'

http://www.stjohndc.org/Russian/what/e_Clndr-Lardas.htm
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« Reply #28 on: October 04, 2007, 09:49:05 AM »

Thank you Αριστοκλής. That was most helpful.
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« Reply #29 on: October 04, 2007, 09:53:23 AM »

You are welcome. It was for me, too.
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