OrthodoxChristianity.net
September 02, 2014, 12:43:20 AM *
Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
News: Reminder: No political discussions in the public fora.  If you do not have access to the private Politics Forum, please send a PM to Fr. George.
 
   Home   Help Calendar Contact Treasury Tags Login Register  
Pages: 1 2 All   Go Down
  Print  
Author Topic: "Akathist Hymn to the Theotokos" and "Canon to the Most Holy Theotokos" ???  (Read 8787 times) Average Rating: 0
0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.
pathofsolitude
Member
***
Offline Offline

Faith: Immaculately Pure Hesychastic Orthodoxy of the Old Way
Jurisdiction: Unorganized Catacomb Communion in Exile- (the bishops have lost the faith)
Posts: 133


« on: October 10, 2007, 07:32:39 AM »

Hello. This is my first post.

I read somewhere that *all* the Byzantine churches use the "Akathist Hymn to the Theotokos" and that they use it about five times a year. Is this true? Is there any church that does not?

What about the "Canon to the Most Holy Theotokos"? [Aka "Service of Great Paraklesis to..." and I guess there are other titles as well.] Which Byzantine churches use this? And how often is it used?

I am amazed at how these prayers go way beyond any prayers in Roman Catholicism. Some of them are very questionable theologically. Thats why I'm asking if every Byzantine uses them.

Here are some samples from the Akathist Hymn:

Quote
[speaking to Mary:]

Forgiveness for many transgressors

you who washes away the stain of sin

Bestower of divine goodness

for you regenerated those conceived in shame

Rock which refreshed those thirsting for life

more spacious than a cloud

Nourishment, successor to manna

Laver purifying conscience

Holy one, holier than the Hollies

inexhaustible Treasury of Life

Healing of my flesh

having your might unassailable, free us from all dangers

http://www.monachos.net/library/Akathist_Hymn_to_Our_Most_Holy_Lady_Mother_of_God_(Theotokos)

But thats nothing in comparison with the Canon to the Theotokos:

Quote
[speaking to Mary:]

our only hope

We have no other help, we have no other hope, but thee

I have no other help beside Thee, no other intercessor, nor good consoler, except thee, O Mother of God

For if thou didst not intercede in prayer, who would have delivered us from so many dangers? Who would have kept us free until now?

O cause of all blessings

O only praise of all

O only immaculate one

pour on all the riches of well-doing and good conduct; all is possible to thee

Thy divine protection, O Virgin

these honorable gifts, which can be offered only to thee, who art the one chosen out of all generations, and who hast become higher than all creation, heavenly and earthly

the inexhaustible, unfailing treasury of healings

O fountain of mercy

as our hope and support and unshakable wall of salvation, we are delivered from every difficulty

a wall of refuge and the perfect salvation of our souls and release from our afflictions

we are thy slaves

a treasury of salvation, fountain of incorruption, tower of safety, and door of repentence

http://home.it.net.au/~jgrapsas/pages/megapara.htm


The Canon is a litany that says over and over again, "Most holy mother of God, save us" as the responsorial. You will have to read the context in which this is said to get the full effect.
Logged

The great apostasy has occured. Get out of there while you can!!! Its better to be priestless than to have a heretic bishop. The apostles taught that the church consists of saints only. There are about 7,000 Spirit-bearers currently in the catacombs.
ozgeorge
I'll take you for who you are if you take me for everything.
Hoplitarches
*************
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Oecumenical Patriarchate of Constantinople, the New Rome, the Great Church of Christ.
Posts: 16,382


My plans for retirement.


WWW
« Reply #1 on: October 10, 2007, 08:10:57 AM »

The Most Holy Theotokos is "broader than the Heavens."
Think about it. The Uncricumscribable God was Circumscribed within her womb. Within the Mother of God was contained Him Who made the Heaven and the Universe, and is therefore Greater than both of them- yet this same God was contained in the womb of the Theotokos, and nursed at her breasts. Don't you think that's pretty amazing? Everything we say about the Theotokos, is ultimately about Christology. She is who she is only because of her relationship to Christ Who is the Transcendent, Almighty God.
And what about the fact that God could not have been Incarnated at all unless the Theotokos agreed and replied to the Angel "Behold the handmaiden of the Lord, be it done to me according to your word". If she had said "no", then our salvation could not have been accomplished. We are saved because of her. And so we rightly pray: "Most Holy Theotokos, save us!" 
« Last Edit: October 10, 2007, 08:52:16 AM by ozgeorge » Logged

If you're living a happy life as a Christian, you're doing something wrong.
drewmeister2
Elder
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Eastern Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Hellenic Orthodox Traditionalist Church of America
Posts: 415


Christmas at St Markella's Cathedral, Astoria, NY


« Reply #2 on: October 10, 2007, 08:50:50 AM »

Hmm, I take it you are Roman Catholic, kinda funny how a Traditionalist Roman Catholic website has the Akathist on their website if it is so "questionable theologically".

http://www.fisheaters.com/akathisthymn.html
Logged

Orthodoxia i Thanatos

IC    XC      ...and in ONE HOLY CATHOLIC
    +                   and APOSTOLIC CHURCH...
NI    KA

www.hotca.org | www.YouTube.com/GreekOrthodoxTV
TinaG
I am not a pessimist - I'm just grimly realistic!
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: OCA
Posts: 870


If only my family were this normal !


WWW
« Reply #3 on: October 10, 2007, 09:56:56 AM »

Hmm, I take it you are Roman Catholic, kinda funny how a Traditionalist Roman Catholic website has the Akathist on their website if it is so "questionable theologically".

http://www.fisheaters.com/akathisthymn.html

Tisk, tisk, kinda snarky.  Honest questions deserve polite responses.   Converts from protestant or evangelical backgrounds find these same phrases hard to understand and accept.  I had the same concerns years ago and still do a little, but they are less now that my relationship and devotion to the Theotokos has matured.   The phase "Save us" is misunderstood when you don't fully understand her role in salvation. 

Can anyone explain whether there is also some loss of meaning or clarity when these akathists were translated from Greek?  Is "save us" in liturgical Greek the same in English?

I can't remember the poetic term, but I think the phrasing of the Akathists are meant to be over-the-top, effusive.   And then, compare the akathists to the actual words and feelings of prayer to the Theotokos that average Joe Orthodox uses when he's in trouble or has a problem.  I think the level of praise is directly related to the kind of mess you're asking the MOG to get you out of.
Logged

On the spiritual path somewhere between the Simpsons and St. Theophan the Recluse, but I still can't see the Springfield city limits sign yet.
pensateomnia
Bibliophylax
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Greek Orthodox Christian
Posts: 2,347


metron ariston


« Reply #4 on: October 10, 2007, 10:08:49 AM »

There's nothing special about the word "save" in Greek. Just like in English, it can be used in a variety of ways.

Just use some common sense. What does one say when caught in a burning building or in grave physical danger? Does one call out to the fire fighter: "You can help me, but you certainly can't save me, because only Christ saves people!" Or: "No, sir, you did NOT save my life."

In the various hymns to the Theotokos, being "saved" refers specifically to being rescued from the turbulence and dangers of life on this earth. The Church Fathers -- far, far before the Schism with Rome -- emphasized that the Theotokos, being alive in Christ, has a special motherly affection for those still struggling on earth, and that she desires to pray specifically for their health and well being -- like any mother. That's why the Church tends to chant the Akathist or the Canon to the Theotokos in times of distress, war, famine, flood, etc.

Just as any child might call out to its mother for help, for rescue from physical danger -- to be saved from pain or fear -- we too cry out to the Theotokos.

Here's a blurb from a ROCOR site: http://roca.org/OA/132/132e.htm

Quote
The word "save" as we use it in reference to the Mother of God, is found in a number of places in Sacred Scripture.  St. Peter in the Acts of the Apostles (2:40) exclaims, Save yourselves from this ontoward generation. In I Cor. 1:21 we read that  it pleased God through the foolishness of preaching to save them who believe. We also find in Romans 11:14 that St. Paul, speaking to the Jews, says that he hopes by his example to save some of them.

Now let us discuss these references. Needless to say, St. Peter does not suggest that Christians can save themselves. Certainly we do not replace Christ by "preaching" when we understand that preaching has saved believers.  And, of course, when St. Paul expressed his desire to save his fellow Jews, he certainly is not, by this expression, taking the redemptive power of Christ.

As in our prayers to the Mother of God, we are using the word save in a special way.  This in no way compromises our belief that Christ alone saves and redeems our souls.
« Last Edit: October 10, 2007, 10:49:46 AM by pensateomnia » Logged

But for I am a man not textueel I wol noght telle of textes neuer a deel. (Chaucer, The Manciple's Tale, 1.131)
pathofsolitude
Member
***
Offline Offline

Faith: Immaculately Pure Hesychastic Orthodoxy of the Old Way
Jurisdiction: Unorganized Catacomb Communion in Exile- (the bishops have lost the faith)
Posts: 133


« Reply #5 on: October 10, 2007, 11:29:22 AM »

Hmm, I take it you are Roman Catholic, kinda funny how a Traditionalist Roman Catholic website has the Akathist on their website if it is so "questionable theologically".

http://www.fisheaters.com/akathisthymn.html

Well, I dont know how you arrived at such a sure conclusion. But I assure you that I have nothing to do with that religion! I was merely pointing out that the prayers here surpass anything in the Latin church. For proof of this you can go through all these prayers: http://www.catholicdoors.com/prayers/marian.htm . I did and I found nothing even approaching some of the things I quoted. 

[I am aware that traditional popes promoted the Akathist Hymn and that its used in some Eastern Roman Catholic churches. But Eastern Roman Catholics were only 0.05% of Roman Catholicism.]

I wonder what the Oriental Orthodox would think of the Hymn and the Canon. I think they would find it a bit overboard. They too say that Mary is immaculate and that she is our mediatrix. [Which I firmly believe she is.] But I dont think they would go for things like: "you are our only hope, only praise of all, only blessed one, the forgiveness of our sins, bestower of divine goodness, holier than the holies, and if you didnt interceed for us who would?" I might convert to the OO.
« Last Edit: October 10, 2007, 11:40:50 AM by pathofsolitude » Logged

The great apostasy has occured. Get out of there while you can!!! Its better to be priestless than to have a heretic bishop. The apostles taught that the church consists of saints only. There are about 7,000 Spirit-bearers currently in the catacombs.
ozgeorge
I'll take you for who you are if you take me for everything.
Hoplitarches
*************
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Oecumenical Patriarchate of Constantinople, the New Rome, the Great Church of Christ.
Posts: 16,382


My plans for retirement.


WWW
« Reply #6 on: October 10, 2007, 11:48:53 AM »

I might convert to the OO.
I think they might upset you as well. In the Agpeya, the Theotokos is called "the Second Heaven", and  "The forgiveness of sins". (http://www.zeitun-eg.org/agpeya.htm )
« Last Edit: October 10, 2007, 11:50:06 AM by ozgeorge » Logged

If you're living a happy life as a Christian, you're doing something wrong.
pathofsolitude
Member
***
Offline Offline

Faith: Immaculately Pure Hesychastic Orthodoxy of the Old Way
Jurisdiction: Unorganized Catacomb Communion in Exile- (the bishops have lost the faith)
Posts: 133


« Reply #7 on: October 10, 2007, 01:03:35 PM »

I think they might upset you as well. In the Agpeya, the Theotokos is called "the Second Heaven", and  "The forgiveness of sins". (http://www.zeitun-eg.org/agpeya.htm )

She is definitely heaven as are all saints who bear God in their souls. I even believe she is immaculate and mediatrix.

The link you gave doesnt [as far as I can tell] call her "the forgivessness of sins." Is this the prayer you were thinking of?:

Quote
We magnify you
O Mother of the True Light
and glorify you
O Theotokos, the Holy Virgin
For you bore for us
the Saviour of the world
who came and saved our souls

Glory be to you O Christ,
our master and our King
;
the honour of the apostles,
the crown of martyrs,
the joy of the righteous,
the confirmation of churches,
the forgiveness of sins

We preach, we worship and we glorify
the Holy Trinity, One in essence

Lord have mercy
Lord have mercy
Lord bless

Amen.


However, please please please do let me know if you come across something that does call her that, or anything else similar to the things I quoted. Not just for the Copts. But any of the OO churches.
Logged

The great apostasy has occured. Get out of there while you can!!! Its better to be priestless than to have a heretic bishop. The apostles taught that the church consists of saints only. There are about 7,000 Spirit-bearers currently in the catacombs.
Fr. David
The Poster Formerly Known as "Pedro"
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Eastern Orthodox
Jurisdiction: OCA, Diocese of the South
Posts: 2,828



WWW
« Reply #8 on: October 10, 2007, 02:55:55 PM »

An excellent talk on Mary and the Saints by Fr. Gregory Hogg during the AFR symposium for Lutherans.
Logged

Priest in the Orthodox Church in America - ordained on March 18, 2012

Oh Taste and See (my defunct blog)

From Protestant to Orthodox (my conversion story)
drewmeister2
Elder
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Eastern Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Hellenic Orthodox Traditionalist Church of America
Posts: 415


Christmas at St Markella's Cathedral, Astoria, NY


« Reply #9 on: October 10, 2007, 03:04:11 PM »

Sorry, don't mean to be too harsh with you, its just that sometimes many people come to this forum telling us how our prayers or theology, etc, are "questionable theologically", only looking for a debate and not having any real interest in learning.  But if you are sincere in your question, then I am sorry, and welcome to the forum Smiley
Logged

Orthodoxia i Thanatos

IC    XC      ...and in ONE HOLY CATHOLIC
    +                   and APOSTOLIC CHURCH...
NI    KA

www.hotca.org | www.YouTube.com/GreekOrthodoxTV
ozgeorge
I'll take you for who you are if you take me for everything.
Hoplitarches
*************
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Oecumenical Patriarchate of Constantinople, the New Rome, the Great Church of Christ.
Posts: 16,382


My plans for retirement.


WWW
« Reply #10 on: October 10, 2007, 04:50:20 PM »

However, please please please do let me know if you come across something that does call her that, or anything else similar to the things I quoted. Not just for the Copts. But any of the OO churches.
Why don't you ask them yourself? I'd love you to become OO, and I think you should. If you feel so strongly about this and aren't a troll, why don't you talk to our OO members in the OO forum here?
Logged

If you're living a happy life as a Christian, you're doing something wrong.
EkhristosAnesti
'I will say of the Lord, "He is my refuge and my fortress; My God, in Him I will trust."' - Psalm 91:2
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Oriental Orthodox
Posts: 2,743


Pope St Kyrillos VI


« Reply #11 on: October 28, 2007, 01:06:03 AM »

Dear pathofsolitude,

I don't think it is proper to abstract certain hymns or prayers from their overall theological context, which, as the posters above have stressed, relates St Mary to our salvation insofar as, a) her obedience to the will of God was instrumental to the event of the Incarnation, and hence our salvation, and b) she found unique and surpassing favour in the eyes of God who, by His Grace, grants her every desire and request; this relates to our salvation when considered in connexion with the fact God the Word entrusted all believers to her motherly care which has, as its foremost concern, our salvation.

Coptic hymns and prayers aren't as ornate as Byzantine hymns and prayers for they tend more to reflect the modest piety that generally marks Coptic asceticism, but you will nevertheless find elements that strongly attest to a) and b) above. Take for example, the popular Vigil Praise 'Shashf Ensop':

Quote
Seven times every day,
With all my heart,
I bless Your Name,
O God of everyone.

I remembered Your Name,
And I was comforted;
O King of the ages,
And God of all gods.

Jesus Christ,
Our true God,
Who descended from heaven,
For our salvation.

He took flesh,
And was incarnate,
Of  the Holy Spirit,
And of Mary the holy bride.

He changed our sorrow,
And all our afflictions,
Into joy for our hearts,
And rejoicing for all.

Let us worship Him:
And sing concerning:
His holy Mother Mary:
The fair dove.

Let us all proclaim,
With the voice of joy saying,
“Hail to you O Mary,
The Mother of Emmanuel”

Shere ne Maria: the salvation of Adam our father.
Shere ne Maria: the mother of the refuge.
Shere ne Maria: the  rejoicing of Eve.
Shere ne Maria: the joy of all nations.
Shere ne Maria: the joy of righteous Abel.
Shere ne Maria: the true virgin.
Shere ne Maria: the salvation of Noah.
Shere ne Maria: the undefiled.
Shere ne Maria: the grace of Abraham.
Shere ne Maria: the unfading crown.
Shere ne Maria: the redemption of Isaac the  saint.
Shere ne Maria: the Mother of the Holy.
Shere ne Maria: the rejoicing of Jacob.
Shere ne Maria: myriads of myriads.
Shere ne Maria: the glory of Judah.
Shere ne Maria: the Mother of the Master.
Shere ne Maria: the preaching of Moses.
Shere ne Maria: the Mother of the Lord.
Shere ne Maria: the honor of Samuel.
Shere ne Maria: the pride of Israel.
Shere ne Maria: the steadfastness of righteous Job.
Shere ne Maria: the precious stone.
Shere ne Maria: the Mother of the Beloved.
Shere ne Maria: the daughter of King David
Shere ne Maria: the friend of Solomon.
Shere ne Maria: exaltation of the just.
Shere ne Maria: the deliverance of Isaiah.
Shere ne Maria: the healing of Jeremiah.
Shere ne Maria: the knowledge of Ezekiel.
Shere ne Maria: the gift of Daniel.
Shere ne Maria: the power of Elijah.
Shere ne Maria: the grace of Elisha
Shere ne Maria: the Mother of God.
Shere ne Maria: the Mother of Jesus Christ.
Shere ne Maria: the fair dove.
Shere ne Maria: the Mother of the Son of God.

In the OO section of the forum I recently posted a substantial segment of an Armenian Orthodox prayer to the Virgin St Mary which strongly attests to b):

...O Holy Mary, Bearer of God, what would God the Father withhold from you, He who loved you so much that He granted you His Only-begotten Son through whom He created all creatures? What would God the Son withhold from you that you would ask of Him, He who loved you so much that He dwelt in your womb and sat in your lap, who feeds all but was fed from your breasts, who was your God and Lord but became your son and called you Mother? God the Spirit, too, loved you so much that He entrusted His co-equal in essence to you and He who adorns everything rested in you and made you the lodging place for His unending gifts. What could be lacking that you do not possess? For I truly believe that, according to the angel’s word, the Lord and Giver of all spiritual gifts is with you, (Luke 1:28) and your Son is verily in your lap. Whatever your Son has is yours, and whatever you ask of Him, He will not withhold. And you are able to give to whomever you will: as your Son says through the mouth of Solomon, “Ask, my mother; for whatever you may ask, I shall not turn my face away.”

Therefore [My note: notice how the following exalted abilities and qualities of St Mary flow from all that has been said above regarding her favour in the eyes of the Holy Trinity, and particularly the Logos], O Mary, holy Bearer of God, next to God you are the expectation of His creatures. You are the joy of the sorrowful, deliverer of the tempted, helper and comfort of believers, and hope and refuge for sinners. In keeping with this, your beloved Son on the cross left to you, through John, those who would believe in Him, as a bequest. By saying, “Woman, behold your son,” (John 19:26) it was as if He said, “Those who believe in Me are yours, and henceforth they are committed to you.” Likewise, in the persona of John He said to us who believe: “‘Behold your mother’; (John 19:27) from now on ask of her whatever you wish” [My note: all that follows regarding St Mary's ability to save us from spiritual and physical enemies, from our sins and our guilt etc. are connected thus to God's entrusting her with such motherly responsibilities].

Now, O Mother of compassion, Mary, holy Bearer of God, I too am one of the believers in your beloved Son, a pitiful person in spirit and body and wanting in everything. I long for your motherly pity. Being oppressed and wounded by spiritual and physical enemies, I desire your help. Sinful and guilty in everything, I desire your support and your infusion of hope...Be a mediator and commend me, sinful servant that I am, to your only-begotten Son, that He may accept my pleadings which I have presented to Him and that He may fulfill my requests; that He may forgive my mistakes and pardon all my sins; that He may accept me again into his love and care and that He may keep me as it pleases His will for as long as I am in this body. And after the present life, may He make me worthy to behold Him in bliss.

For I surely believe, O Mother of mercy, that if you were to mention me but once before your beloved Son, it would make my joy and my security in every way complete. If you were to show Him your pure breasts but once, that would be sufficient for my salvation and my absolute deliverance.[/color] And if you were to remind Him of just one drop of the tears which you shed at the time of His crucifixion, it would mean the forgiveness of all my sins and life altogether eternal. These are, one and all, easy and possible for your motherly compassion, abundant in mercy; and they are altogether essential and necessary for me, your pitiful servant. And having found mercy from you, I shall glorify your only-begotten Son, with the Father and the Holy Spirit, and shall praise you with thanksgiving, Mother of mercy, forever and ever. Amen.

Essentially, I do not see any substantial difference between EO and OO Mariology.
« Last Edit: October 28, 2007, 01:21:59 AM by EkhristosAnesti » Logged

No longer an active member of this forum. Sincerest apologies to anyone who has taken offence to anything posted in youthful ignorance or negligence prior to my leaving this forum - October, 2012.

"Philosophy is the imitation by a man of what is better, according to what is possible" - St Severus
pathofsolitude
Member
***
Offline Offline

Faith: Immaculately Pure Hesychastic Orthodoxy of the Old Way
Jurisdiction: Unorganized Catacomb Communion in Exile- (the bishops have lost the faith)
Posts: 133


« Reply #12 on: October 28, 2007, 02:16:59 AM »

Thank you very very much for posting these prayers. Yeah it does look like the essence of what they are saying is the same. But I wonder how much this Mariology is really a part of common Oriental Orthodox piety in comparison with the Byzantines. For instance, how often is the 'Shashf Ensop' prayed? And in regard to the Armenians, is the quote you gave from them a liturgical prayer, or just what a saint wrote for personal use? And do you know of any other prayers like these? I sincerly thank you for any more help you can give me as this directly pertains to my salvation! You are truly the only access I have to this information.

Logged

The great apostasy has occured. Get out of there while you can!!! Its better to be priestless than to have a heretic bishop. The apostles taught that the church consists of saints only. There are about 7,000 Spirit-bearers currently in the catacombs.
EkhristosAnesti
'I will say of the Lord, "He is my refuge and my fortress; My God, in Him I will trust."' - Psalm 91:2
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Oriental Orthodox
Posts: 2,743


Pope St Kyrillos VI


« Reply #13 on: October 28, 2007, 03:05:18 AM »

'Shashf Ensop' is chanted every Sunday Vigil service. It's the '8th part' of the Sunday Theotokias. I posted the entire text because I think the first seven stanzas provide the necessary context in which the "Shere ne Maria's" are to be understood. The Armenian prayer is a prayer composed by the 18th century Armenian Catholicos, St Symeon Yerevantsi.

My primary aim in quoting these prayers/hymns for you in the manner I did was to reinforce the qualifications and contextualisations made by previous posters with respect to the phrases and expressions that irk you, not simply to suggest something to the effect of: "well, if you have a problem with the EO's, you're going to have a problem with us as well" (else I would have selectively quoted those parallel expressions in isolation). What is it about such qualifications that do not suffice to dispel your qualms?
« Last Edit: October 28, 2007, 03:06:24 AM by EkhristosAnesti » Logged

No longer an active member of this forum. Sincerest apologies to anyone who has taken offence to anything posted in youthful ignorance or negligence prior to my leaving this forum - October, 2012.

"Philosophy is the imitation by a man of what is better, according to what is possible" - St Severus
Salpy
Section Moderator
Toumarches
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Oriental Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Armenian Church
Posts: 12,564


Pray for the Christians of Iraq and Syria.


« Reply #14 on: October 28, 2007, 11:43:01 PM »

I'd love you to become OO, and I think you should.

George,

Your zeal for making converts to the Oriental Orthodox Church is much appreciated, but please try to remember that we have rules against proselytizing.

 Grin


Pathofsolitude,

I am actually not too familiar with the prayer written by Catholicos Simeon, but he is respected as a great catholicos (among other things, he introduced the first printing press in Etchmiadzin) and I have never heard him criticised.  In fact the sentiments expressed in his prayer are quite consistent with how the Armenian Orthodox regard the Mother of God.  She is the most honored and beloved saint in the Church.  Why shouldn't she be, when it was through her consent to the Angel Gabriel that our Savior came into the world?  Her intercession is sought more than once during the Sunday liturgies and on certain feast days, hymns are sung which honor her:

     "O Mother of God, tabernacle of the light of the unbounded sun of life, thou didst become the dayspring of the sun of righteousness and didst shed forth light on those who sit in darkness;  wherefor we all praise thee always.
     "O thou undefiled temple and burning bush who art not consumed, thou didst bear in thee the fire of the Godhead that is not burnt, wherewith the flame of the passions of our nature was burnt and consumed; wherefore we all praise thee always.
     "O thou living ark of the tables of the testament of the new covenant, through thee was cast up the way to the land of the promise, the Word that was fashioned in thee by the Spirit; wherefor we all praise thee always."

From another hymn:

"Thou gem-like rose of unique color,
Thou golden peacock,
Thou gem-like rose of unique color,
Thou moon of the Sun
Full of light in the night
Thou Saturn, resplendent in the morning!"

I have never heard that there was a difference between our Mariology and that of the EO's.  I always thought our regard for her was the same.

We really love her.  I think one reason is because her own love for Christ is so strong and unique.  When you think about it, we love Christ for purely selfish reasons, because He saved us.  The Mother of God, on the other hand, loves Christ no matter what, because He is her Son.  She would love Him regardless of whether He saved her or not.  Her love is the strongest of all human love--a mother's love.  That is why she is such a strong intercessor.  She loves Christ so much and has such a unique and loving relationship with Him. 

Logged

prodromas
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Eastern Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Under the Green Pope
Posts: 1,239

Greek Orthodox


« Reply #15 on: October 29, 2007, 03:22:42 AM »

We really love her.  I think one reason is because her own love for Christ is so strong and unique.  When you think about it, we love Christ for purely selfish reasons, because He saved us.  The Mother of God, on the other hand, loves Christ no matter what, because He is her Son.  She would love Him regardless of whether He saved her or not.  Her love is the strongest of all human love--a mother's love.  That is why she is such a strong intercessor.  She loves Christ so much and has such a unique and loving relationship with Him.

I'd like to say first of all that because of this forum I have overcome my confusion on our position on Mary. As I have said before I know many fundamental protestants who constantly ridicule me and question my reverence of her and claim it to be worship but I tried to defend the position and I couldn't and I gradually changed my position as some form of an Anglican view! interestingly enough it was 2 OO posters who were able to make me understand the unique position that the Theotokos holds in our tradition! Salpy with this quote you have made me understand even further the concept and so did the other OO poster Didymus gave me a new understanding of the dormition of the Theotokos! Thank you both
Logged

The sins I don't commit are largely due to the weakness of my limbs.

1915-1923 Հայոց Ցեղասպանութիւն ,never again,
ܩܛܠܐ ܕܥܡܐ ܐܬܘܪܝܐ 1920-1914, never again,
השואה  1933-1945, never again,
(1914-1923) Ελληνική Γενοκτονία, never again
prodromas
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Eastern Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Under the Green Pope
Posts: 1,239

Greek Orthodox


« Reply #16 on: October 29, 2007, 03:26:09 AM »

We really love her.  I think one reason is because her own love for Christ is so strong and unique.  When you think about it, we love Christ for purely selfish reasons, because He saved us.  The Mother of God, on the other hand, loves Christ no matter what, because He is her Son.  She would love Him regardless of whether He saved her or not.  Her love is the strongest of all human love--a mother's love.  That is why she is such a strong intercessor.  She loves Christ so much and has such a unique and loving relationship with Him.

I'd like to say first of all that because of this forum I have overcome my confusion on our position on Mary. As I have said before I know many fundamental protestants who constantly ridicule me and question my reverence of her and claim it to be worship but I tried to defend the position and I couldn't and I gradually changed my position as some form of an Anglican view! interestingly enough it was 2 OO posters who were able to make me understand the unique position that the Theotokos holds in our tradition! Salpy with this quote you have made me understand even further the concept and so did the other OO poster Didymus gave me a new understanding of the dormition of the Theotokos! Thank you both
Logged

The sins I don't commit are largely due to the weakness of my limbs.

1915-1923 Հայոց Ցեղասպանութիւն ,never again,
ܩܛܠܐ ܕܥܡܐ ܐܬܘܪܝܐ 1920-1914, never again,
השואה  1933-1945, never again,
(1914-1923) Ελληνική Γενοκτονία, never again
Ortho_cat
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: AOCA-DWMA
Posts: 5,392



« Reply #17 on: March 25, 2011, 05:54:39 PM »

Ok, so i've never been to an Akathist service before, but scrolling through it beforehand, I came across this:

Quote
People: (all kneel as we sing:)

Priest: Our most gracious Queen, our hope, O Theotokos, Who receivest the orphaned and art the intercessor for the stranger; the joy of those in sorrow, protectress of the wronged, see our distress, see our affliction! Help us, for we are helpless. Feed us, for we are strangers and pilgrims. Thou knowest our offences; forgive them, and resolve them as Thou dost will. For we know no other help but Thee, no other intercessor, no gracious comforter, only Thee, O Theotokos to guard and protect us for ages of ages. Amen.

First, does she really know our sins? And second, how does she forgive them?  Huh
 
Logged
Fr. George
formerly "Cleveland"
Administrator
Stratopedarches
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox (Catholic) Christian
Jurisdiction: GOA - Metropolis of Pittsburgh
Posts: 20,053


May the Lord bless you and keep you always!


« Reply #18 on: March 25, 2011, 06:02:38 PM »

^ She is united to her Son, so she knows whatever He wills her to; and forgiveness can be granted by Him through her prayers.
Logged

"The man who doesn't read good books has no advantage over the one who can't read them." Mark Twain
---------------------
Ordained on 17 & 18-Oct 2009. Please forgive me if earlier posts are poorly worded or incorrect in any way.
Ortho_cat
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: AOCA-DWMA
Posts: 5,392



« Reply #19 on: March 25, 2011, 08:01:21 PM »

^ She is united to her Son, so she knows whatever He wills her to; and forgiveness can be granted by Him through her prayers.

So is this unique to the Theotokos, or do all saints have this ability, just the Theotokos more so?
Logged
Fr. George
formerly "Cleveland"
Administrator
Stratopedarches
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox (Catholic) Christian
Jurisdiction: GOA - Metropolis of Pittsburgh
Posts: 20,053


May the Lord bless you and keep you always!


« Reply #20 on: March 25, 2011, 10:08:29 PM »

Not unique in nature: the theosis for one is the same theosis for all.  However, she is held in highest esteem with St. John the Baptist as the pinnacles of humanity after Christ Himself based on the life she lived in fidelity, obedience, and Love for God; thus she is held honor beyond all others.
« Last Edit: March 25, 2011, 10:08:48 PM by Fr. George » Logged

"The man who doesn't read good books has no advantage over the one who can't read them." Mark Twain
---------------------
Ordained on 17 & 18-Oct 2009. Please forgive me if earlier posts are poorly worded or incorrect in any way.
Volnutt
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Agnostic/Universalist
Posts: 3,107


« Reply #21 on: May 23, 2011, 09:14:03 AM »

In the various hymns to the Theotokos, being "saved" refers specifically to being rescued from the turbulence and dangers of life on this earth. The Church Fathers -- far, far before the Schism with Rome -- emphasized that the Theotokos, being alive in Christ, has a special motherly affection for those still struggling on earth, and that she desires to pray specifically for their health and well being -- like any mother. That's why the Church tends to chant the Akathist or the Canon to the Theotokos in times of distress, war, famine, flood, etc.

Just as any child might call out to its mother for help, for rescue from physical danger -- to be saved from pain or fear -- we too cry out to the Theotokos.
This is really the core of my remaining Marian problems, I think. When the church takes Christological phrases such as "wash away our sins" and "rock of our deliverance" and applies them to Mary in an admittedly hyperbolic poem, then begins using it as the spontaneous, "go-to," (and primary?) supplication in times of trouble, isn't this just courting theological disaster in the hearts of the faithful?

Given the fickleness of the human emotion and associative abilities coupled with the fact that the only way these phrases become acceptable is with a certain amount of theological contemplation, can't the theotokos easily become the simple, unconscious, replacement for her Son when the "rubber meats the road" of everyday life?

I ask this because I keep reading how EO/OO Mariology is so much more Christocentric than that of the RCC. But given the above, how are things like this prayer and especially the Pokrov/sub tuum which seems to especially used in crisis by persecuted Christians in Alexandria, any different than some of the RCC practices I see denounced such as the "kingdom of mercy/kingdom of justice" idea or the theological issues surrounding some of the Marian apparitions? Some of these can be "salvaged" theologically, yes. But given the association between all of these practices and the idea of children in trouble spontaneously calling out their loving mama, don't you see the inherent "eclipsing" possibility? Maybe it's just because I'm an outside, but nobody seems to care or talk about something which seems so screamingly obvious to me. I keep coming back to why the Pope rejects Co-Redemptrix theology, it's just too likely to confuse whatever its theological possibilities might be (I'm not saying Co-Redemptrix fits into EO/OO theology, just using it as an example of the same sort of principle of language).

Forgive me.
Logged
genesisone
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Antioch
Posts: 2,482



« Reply #22 on: May 23, 2011, 09:38:13 AM »

This is really the core of my remaining Marian problems, I think. When the church takes Christological phrases such as "wash away our sins" and "rock of our deliverance" and applies them to Mary in an admittedly hyperbolic poem, then begins using it as the spontaneous, "go-to," (and primary?) supplication in times of trouble, isn't this just courting theological disaster in the hearts of the faithful?

Given the fickleness of the human emotion and associative abilities coupled with the fact that the only way these phrases become acceptable is with a certain amount of theological contemplation, can't the theotokos easily become the simple, unconscious, replacement for her Son when the "rubber meats the road" of everyday life?

Maybe it's just because I'm an outside, but nobody seems to care or talk about something which seems so screamingly obvious to me.

Forgive me.

Yes, dear friend, it's because you are an outsider that these things seem to scream at you. Any mention of our Lord's mother, the Holy Theotokos, is a hot button in most Protestant circles. She is usually relegated to a non-speaking role in Christmas pageants. How often do you hear her song read in a Protestant church? Indeed, Luke 1 is politely ignored.

Your questioning is not at all unusual - her role is often one of the last things to be grasped by many Protestants approaching Orthodoxy. Once you become more immersed in the Orthodox faith through participation in all of the services, you begin to have a more balanced and accurate view of the matter. For example, you will come across this Theotokion:
"In that thou art the treasury of our resurrection, O all-praised one, lead thou forth from the pit and bottom of transgression those who set their hope in thee, for thou has saved those who were guilty of sin, in that thou didst give birth to our salvation, O thou who before giving birth wast virgin, and at giving birth and after giving birth wast virgin still." (emphasis mine)

It takes time. Once you begin to understand how important Christ's humanity is to our salvation, then it will follow quite naturally that the Theotokos' role is immensely important to our salvation as well.
Logged
Volnutt
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Agnostic/Universalist
Posts: 3,107


« Reply #23 on: May 24, 2011, 10:03:11 PM »

She is usually relegated to a non-speaking role in Christmas pageants. How often do you hear her song read in a Protestant church?
I agree. As Billy Graham said, we Protestants haven't given her her proper due. I don't have a problem at all saying she saved us and is immensely important. I love the Akathist to the Theotokos.

But where is the line? Where, if you will, did the Collyridians go wrong? The Paraklesis doesn't mention Christ, the source of her holiness, power, and significance, at all. Nor does the sub tuum.

Where does praising her within the context of her Son turn into praising her completely outside her Son? Isn't that the flaw in all the Latin errors about her?
Logged
FormerReformer
Convertodox of the convertodox
Site Supporter
Archon
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Eastern Orthodox
Jurisdiction: I'll take (e) for "all of the above"
Posts: 2,416



WWW
« Reply #24 on: May 24, 2011, 10:40:16 PM »

The Paraklesis doesn't mention Christ, the source of her holiness, power, and significance, at all. Nor does the sub tuum.

The paraklesis mentions her Son several times.

First Ode:
Quote
Still the attacks of the passions that disquiet me and overfill my soul with despondency, O Maiden, with the calmness of your own Son and your God, O all-blessed one.
Quote
To Christ God, the Saviour, you gave birth; I beg you, O Virgin, from afflictions deliver me; for now to you I flee for refuge, bringing to you both my soul and my reasoning.

Third Ode:
Quote
The vault of the heavens is You, O Lord, Fashioner; and the Holy Church's great founder; likewise establish me in unfeigned love for You, for You are the height of things sought for, the support of the faithful and the only Friend of all.
Quote
I entreat you, O Virgin, disperse from me all of the distress of despair and turbulence in my soul; for you, O Bride of God, have given birth to the Lord Christ, Who is Prince of peace, O only all-blameless one.
Quote
Since you have brought forth Him Who is our Benefactor, the cause of good, from the wealth of your loving-kindness pour forth upon us all; for you can do all things, since you carried Christ, the One Who is mighty in power; for you are blessed of God.

At least once per Ode a mention is made of her Son, many of the Odes begin with a supplication to God before mentioning the Blessed Theotokos at all.
Logged

"Funny," said Lancelot, "how the people who can't pray say that prayers are not answered, however much the people who can pray say they are."  TH White

Oh, no: I've succumbed to Hyperdoxy!
neon_knights
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Faith: Christian
Posts: 513


My political hero.


« Reply #25 on: May 24, 2011, 11:02:57 PM »

I'm having a lot of trouble grasping these hymns as well. It seems to be bordering worship.

I understand the whole "role of a mother" thing, but does the Theotokos really have the same power that God has to aid us and deliver us from our earlthly troubles? After all, God was incarnated to man, so He also should be able to understand our problems.

It just leaves a bad taste in my mouth. It somehow reminds me of how polytheists would go to certain deities in certain situations. As was said above, Orthodox Christians often chant the hymn in times of distress.

Many times I have heard a claim that veneration of Mary was adopted into Christianity as a way to make it easier for pagans, who were used to a mother-like goddess figure, to convert. I'm not sure how accurate it is, or if it is based in any truth at all, but I do know that these hymns look to me like worship.

Maybe I just don't understand enough. If I am being ignorant, please forgive me, but this kind of hymn is just very foreign to an Evangelical Protestant.
Logged
akimori makoto
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Non-heretical Christian
Jurisdiction: Fully-sik-hektic archdiocese of Australia, bro
Posts: 3,126

No-one bound by fleshly pleasures is worthy ...


« Reply #26 on: May 24, 2011, 11:06:24 PM »

I'm having a lot of trouble grasping these hymns as well. It seems to be bordering worship.

I understand the whole "role of a mother" thing, but does the Theotokos really have the same power that God has to aid us and deliver us from our earlthly troubles? After all, God was incarnated to man, so He also should be able to understand our problems.

It just leaves a bad taste in my mouth. It somehow reminds me of how polytheists would go to certain deities in certain situations. As was said above, Orthodox Christians often chant the hymn in times of distress.

Many times I have heard a claim that veneration of Mary was adopted into Christianity as a way to make it easier for pagans, who were used to a mother-like goddess figure, to convert. I'm not sure how accurate it is, or if it is based in any truth at all, but I do know that these hymns look to me like worship.

Maybe I just don't understand enough. If I am being ignorant, please forgive me, but this kind of hymn is just very foreign to an Evangelical Protestant.

Don't worry, I'm cradle Orthodox and I still tend to "skip" akathists to the Theotokos.

Try to keep your mind open (as it seems you are doing) -- the Church has broken down my resistance to many things over the years I have tried to engage with its teaching in humility and with patience. This might turn out to be one of those for both you and me.
« Last Edit: May 24, 2011, 11:07:03 PM by akimori makoto » Logged

The Episcopallian road is easy and wide, for many go through it to find destruction. lol sorry channeling Isa.
NicholasMyra
Taxiarches
**********
Online Online

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Antiochian/Greek
Posts: 5,849


Avowed denominationalist


« Reply #27 on: May 25, 2011, 12:19:11 AM »


Where does praising her within the context of her Son turn into praising her completely outside her Son? Isn't that the flaw in all the Latin errors about her?
The moment poetic references to the Theotokos as the channel of grace and the untrodden portal are interpreted legalistically, as if they were precise ontological statements. That's where the Latin Mediatrix of All Graces doctrine comes from.

The Orthodox hymn the Theotokos as "the Butter Mountain" because of Psalm 67:

 "The mountain of God is a butter mountain, a curdled mountain, a butter mountain. Why suppose ye that there be other curdled mountains? This is the mountain wherein God is pleased to dwell, yea, for the Lord will dwell therein to the end."

Now, to commit the Latin error would be to dogmatically proclaim that Mary is the only true Dispenser of all Dairies, limiting the mediation of butters and cheeses across the universe.
« Last Edit: May 25, 2011, 12:20:46 AM by NicholasMyra » Logged

Quote from: Orthonorm
if Christ does and says x. And someone else does and says not x and you are ever in doubt, follow Christ.

"You are philosophical innovators. As for me, I follow the Fathers." -Every heresiarch ever
Alveus Lacuna
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: OCA
Posts: 6,861



« Reply #28 on: May 25, 2011, 01:18:22 AM »

"The mountain of God is a butter mountain, a curdled mountain, a butter mountain. Why suppose ye that there be other curdled mountains? This is the mountain wherein God is pleased to dwell, yea, for the Lord will dwell therein to the end."

Another one of those divinely-sanctioned Septuagint translation errors from the Hebrew original? Gotta love that miraculous accuracy!  Grin
Logged
NicholasMyra
Taxiarches
**********
Online Online

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Antiochian/Greek
Posts: 5,849


Avowed denominationalist


« Reply #29 on: May 25, 2011, 02:34:18 AM »

"The mountain of God is a butter mountain, a curdled mountain, a butter mountain. Why suppose ye that there be other curdled mountains? This is the mountain wherein God is pleased to dwell, yea, for the Lord will dwell therein to the end."

Another one of those divinely-sanctioned Septuagint translation errors from the Hebrew original? Gotta love that miraculous accuracy!  Grin
To be fair, the Hebrew word is untranslatable, correct?
« Last Edit: May 25, 2011, 02:34:26 AM by NicholasMyra » Logged

Quote from: Orthonorm
if Christ does and says x. And someone else does and says not x and you are ever in doubt, follow Christ.

"You are philosophical innovators. As for me, I follow the Fathers." -Every heresiarch ever
Volnutt
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Agnostic/Universalist
Posts: 3,107


« Reply #30 on: May 25, 2011, 03:56:08 AM »

Now, to commit the Latin error would be to dogmatically proclaim that Mary is the only true Dispenser of all Dairies, limiting the mediation of butters and cheeses across the universe.
laugh Nice.

Still though, the fact that the Latins have their fair share of rationalizations for Jesus still being "in charge" bothers me when I read you guys' explanations.

At least once per Ode a mention is made of her Son, many of the Odes begin with a supplication to God before mentioning the Blessed Theotokos at all.
Oh thanks. I guess I didn't read the whole thing.

I'll need to look at it more closely.
Logged
NicholasMyra
Taxiarches
**********
Online Online

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Antiochian/Greek
Posts: 5,849


Avowed denominationalist


« Reply #31 on: May 25, 2011, 11:18:36 AM »

Now, to commit the Latin error would be to dogmatically proclaim that Mary is the only true Dispenser of all Dairies, limiting the mediation of butters and cheeses across the universe.
laugh Nice.

Still though, the fact that the Latins have their fair share of rationalizations for Jesus still being "in charge" bothers me when I read you guys' explanations.
I understand what you mean, but I think it's important to notice that the Orthodox do not usually go over the top in Marian veneration, whereas the Latins so often do (especially dogmatically). I think it is a result of maintaining the truth of poetic language without having to pin it down.

Basically a "by their fruits" scenario.
« Last Edit: May 25, 2011, 11:18:48 AM by NicholasMyra » Logged

Quote from: Orthonorm
if Christ does and says x. And someone else does and says not x and you are ever in doubt, follow Christ.

"You are philosophical innovators. As for me, I follow the Fathers." -Every heresiarch ever
Iconodule
Uranopolitan
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: OCA (Diocese of Eastern Pennsylvania)
Posts: 6,934


"My god is greater."


« Reply #32 on: May 25, 2011, 11:21:28 AM »

"The mountain of God is a butter mountain, a curdled mountain, a butter mountain. Why suppose ye that there be other curdled mountains? This is the mountain wherein God is pleased to dwell, yea, for the Lord will dwell therein to the end."

Another one of those divinely-sanctioned Septuagint translation errors from the Hebrew original? Gotta love that miraculous accuracy!  Grin

I read somewhere the explanation that, like butter is congealed from milk, so the Virgin "congealed" God into human form.
Logged

"A riddle or the cricket's cry
Is to doubt a fit reply." - William Blake

Quote from: Byron
Just ignore iconotools delusions. He is the biggest multiculturalist globalist there is due to his unfortunate background.
orthonorm
Warned
Hoplitarches
*************
Offline Offline

Faith: Sola Gratia
Jurisdiction: Outside
Posts: 16,488



« Reply #33 on: May 25, 2011, 01:23:14 PM »

"The mountain of God is a butter mountain, a curdled mountain, a butter mountain. Why suppose ye that there be other curdled mountains? This is the mountain wherein God is pleased to dwell, yea, for the Lord will dwell therein to the end."

Another one of those divinely-sanctioned Septuagint translation errors from the Hebrew original? Gotta love that miraculous accuracy!  Grin

I read somewhere the explanation that, like butter is congealed from milk, so the Virgin "congealed" God into human form.

It's one of the lulz from the septuagints.
Logged

Ignorance is not a lack, but a passion.
orthonorm
Warned
Hoplitarches
*************
Offline Offline

Faith: Sola Gratia
Jurisdiction: Outside
Posts: 16,488



« Reply #34 on: May 25, 2011, 01:25:39 PM »

My Priest basically comes down on the side that they contain poetic excesses of theological truth which do get into problematic statements. The excesses must be taken for what they are and the beauty admired for what it is.
Logged

Ignorance is not a lack, but a passion.
CBGardner
Site Supporter
High Elder
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: OCA
Posts: 618


Ask w/ tears, seek w/ obedience, knock w/ patience


« Reply #35 on: May 25, 2011, 01:45:35 PM »

I'm having a lot of trouble grasping these hymns as well. It seems to be bordering worship.

I understand the whole "role of a mother" thing, but does the Theotokos really have the same power that God has to aid us and deliver us from our earlthly troubles? After all, God was incarnated to man, so He also should be able to understand our problems.

It just leaves a bad taste in my mouth. It somehow reminds me of how polytheists would go to certain deities in certain situations. As was said above, Orthodox Christians often chant the hymn in times of distress.

Many times I have heard a claim that veneration of Mary was adopted into Christianity as a way to make it easier for pagans, who were used to a mother-like goddess figure, to convert. I'm not sure how accurate it is, or if it is based in any truth at all, but I do know that these hymns look to me like worship.

Maybe I just don't understand enough. If I am being ignorant, please forgive me, but this kind of hymn is just very foreign to an Evangelical Protestant.

My understanding is that, that power Mary has through God is available to all humanity through theosis. You ask does Mary really have the same power as God, and I say yes, because it is God working through her. And the higher we get on the ladder the more God can and will work through us. It is like God delegates his power to those who serve him, which is why Apostles could forgive or not forgive sins. That doesn't make Mary God, but rather someone worthy of veneration because she chose to take that path and be used by God.

I'm not 100% sure that is the Orthodox understanding so someone please correct me if needed. And a lot of the Mary stuff I have trouble with and don't understand (especially coming from a Protestant background) but in my heart I know that what Mary gets is different than what God gets even if I can't explain how or why. I'm still trying to not lean on my own understanding.
Logged

Authentic zeal is not directed towards anything but union in Christ, or against anything but our own fallenness.

"Beardliness is next to Godliness."- Asteriktos
Volnutt
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Agnostic/Universalist
Posts: 3,107


« Reply #36 on: May 25, 2011, 11:11:37 PM »

My Priest basically comes down on the side that they contain poetic excesses of theological truth which do get into problematic statements. The excesses must be taken for what they are and the beauty admired for what it is.
But these hymns are a part of scared tradition, yes? I didn't think they were supposed to contain errors of this kind.
Logged
NicholasMyra
Taxiarches
**********
Online Online

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Antiochian/Greek
Posts: 5,849


Avowed denominationalist


« Reply #37 on: May 25, 2011, 11:54:30 PM »

My Priest basically comes down on the side that they contain poetic excesses of theological truth which do get into problematic statements. The excesses must be taken for what they are and the beauty admired for what it is.
But these hymns are a part of scared tradition, yes? I didn't think they were supposed to contain errors of this kind.
Indeed, that's why protestants are afraid to pray those prayers.  Grin

What is problematic for a protestant convert is not problematic for a Greek, perhaps.
Logged

Quote from: Orthonorm
if Christ does and says x. And someone else does and says not x and you are ever in doubt, follow Christ.

"You are philosophical innovators. As for me, I follow the Fathers." -Every heresiarch ever
Volnutt
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Agnostic/Universalist
Posts: 3,107


« Reply #38 on: May 26, 2011, 12:43:51 AM »

Maybe so. Southern and Eastern European cultures do have tend to be more "passionate" about things by default and Middle Easterners triple that.
Logged
orthonorm
Warned
Hoplitarches
*************
Offline Offline

Faith: Sola Gratia
Jurisdiction: Outside
Posts: 16,488



« Reply #39 on: May 26, 2011, 02:36:11 AM »

My Priest basically comes down on the side that they contain poetic excesses of theological truth which do get into problematic statements. The excesses must be taken for what they are and the beauty admired for what it is.
But these hymns are a part of scared tradition, yes? I didn't think they were supposed to contain errors of this kind.
Indeed, that's why protestants are afraid to pray those prayers.  Grin

What is problematic for a protestant convert is not problematic for a Greek, perhaps.

My Priest is cradle for generations upon generations.
Logged

Ignorance is not a lack, but a passion.
NicholasMyra
Taxiarches
**********
Online Online

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Antiochian/Greek
Posts: 5,849


Avowed denominationalist


« Reply #40 on: May 26, 2011, 11:23:01 AM »

My Priest basically comes down on the side that they contain poetic excesses of theological truth which do get into problematic statements. The excesses must be taken for what they are and the beauty admired for what it is.
But these hymns are a part of scared tradition, yes? I didn't think they were supposed to contain errors of this kind.
Indeed, that's why protestants are afraid to pray those prayers.  Grin

What is problematic for a protestant convert is not problematic for a Greek, perhaps.

My Priest is cradle for generations upon generations.
I see. My first sentence was just a joke, obviously.
Logged

Quote from: Orthonorm
if Christ does and says x. And someone else does and says not x and you are ever in doubt, follow Christ.

"You are philosophical innovators. As for me, I follow the Fathers." -Every heresiarch ever
biro
Excelsior
Site Supporter
Warned
Toumarches
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Greek Orthodox
Posts: 13,102


Και κλήρονομον δείξον με, ζωής της αιωνίου

fleem
WWW
« Reply #41 on: May 26, 2011, 01:18:32 PM »

I think the poetic excesses come from our gratitude to the Virgin Mary. We love her because she said yes to God. Really, where would we be if she hadn't?  angel
Logged

Charlie Rose: If you could change one thing about the world, what would it be?

Fran Lebowitz: Everything. There is not one thing with which I am satisfied.

http://spcasuncoast.org/
Cognomen
Site Supporter
OC.net guru
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Catholic
Jurisdiction: Phyletism Rules, OK
Posts: 1,968


Ungrateful Biped


« Reply #42 on: May 26, 2011, 03:16:46 PM »

I think the poetic excesses come from our gratitude to the Virgin Mary. We love her because she said yes to God. Really, where would we be if she hadn't?  angel

I agree but also think that the second portion of your statement: "where would we be if she hadn't?" is potentially problematic.  It has been discussed in other threads, but I think the idea that God's plan of salvation rested entirely on the Virgin Mary's decision is troublesome.  Nevertheless, she did say yes to God, and we should be extraordinarily grateful to her for this.
Logged

North American Eastern Orthodox Parish Council Delegate for the Canonization of Saints Twin Towers and Pentagon, as well as the Propagation of the Doctrine of the Assumption of Malaysia Airlines Flight MH370 (NAEOPCDCSTTPPDAMAFM®).
Shanghaiski
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Antiochian
Posts: 7,970


Holy Trinity Church of Gergeti, Georgia


« Reply #43 on: May 26, 2011, 03:36:57 PM »

The one, holy, catholic, and apostolic Church has given these prayers to us so that we might learn to pray and might express love for the Mother of God. It is not the prayers or the Church that has the problem, it's us. The prayers do not require heavy explanations or qualifications, we require humility and love for the Mother of God, and also to get out our heads and trust the Church. We may have been Orthodox all our lives, but that does not save us from the Protestant mentality which infects everything.
Logged

Quote from: GabrieltheCelt
If you spend long enough on this forum, you'll come away with all sorts of weird, untrue ideas of Orthodox Christianity.
Quote from: orthonorm
I would suggest most persons in general avoid any question beginning with why.
Cognomen
Site Supporter
OC.net guru
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Catholic
Jurisdiction: Phyletism Rules, OK
Posts: 1,968


Ungrateful Biped


« Reply #44 on: May 26, 2011, 04:41:58 PM »

^ I really do agree with much of this sentiment, and I'm trying to live it more thoroughly. 

That said, haven't elements within the Church's teachings been in error from time to time?  People didn't simply trust the Church when Iconoclasm gained favor (I'm aware that some or much of Iconoclasm was imposed by outside forces).  Were people in Nestorius' jurisdiction supposed to "trust the Church" while he taught his heresy?  I believe that the Church corrects these errors, but teachings or prayers, in their many forms, may not be entirely accurate or representing the Church's understanding all of the time.

I don't mean to imply that our prayers are heretical.  I simply wonder about our position, as either inquirers or relatively informed laity, to try to better understand issues such as this.

I agree that questioning everything is a sort of infection that has arisen in many branches of Protestantism.  At the same time, is seeking to better understand entirely bad?  While I don't believe the RCC to currently be within the true Church (and hence, not fully guided by the Holy Spirit), couldn't it be argued that a failure to question certain teachings contributed to their errors and eventual departure?
 
Logged

North American Eastern Orthodox Parish Council Delegate for the Canonization of Saints Twin Towers and Pentagon, as well as the Propagation of the Doctrine of the Assumption of Malaysia Airlines Flight MH370 (NAEOPCDCSTTPPDAMAFM®).
NicholasMyra
Taxiarches
**********
Online Online

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Antiochian/Greek
Posts: 5,849


Avowed denominationalist


« Reply #45 on: May 26, 2011, 04:46:10 PM »

^ I really do agree with much of this sentiment, and I'm trying to live it more thoroughly.  

That said, haven't elements within the Church's teachings been in error from time to time?  People didn't simply trust the Church when Iconoclasm gained favor (I'm aware that some or much of Iconoclasm was imposed by outside forces).  Were people in Nestorius' jurisdiction supposed to "trust the Church" while he taught his heresy?  I believe that the Church corrects these errors, but teachings or prayers, in their many forms, may not be entirely accurate or representing the Church's understanding all of the time.

I don't mean to imply that our prayers are heretical.  I simply wonder about our position, as either inquirers or relatively informed laity, to try to better understand issues such as this.

I agree that questioning everything is a sort of infection that has arisen in many branches of Protestantism.  At the same time, is seeking to better understand entirely bad?  While I don't believe the RCC to currently be within the true Church (and hence, not fully guided by the Holy Spirit), couldn't it be argued that a failure to question certain teachings contributed to their errors and eventual departure?
 
I think every individual thing, like an auxiliary prayer, should be tested a little. Especially since some prayers from the 1700's-1800's might be from Latin Catholic influence in Russia and the other Slavic nations.

But is the EO leaning more toward excessive Marian veneration, or away from it? It seems like the fruits are showing that these prayers do not lead to excessive veneration as often as in the RCC.
« Last Edit: May 26, 2011, 04:47:27 PM by NicholasMyra » Logged

Quote from: Orthonorm
if Christ does and says x. And someone else does and says not x and you are ever in doubt, follow Christ.

"You are philosophical innovators. As for me, I follow the Fathers." -Every heresiarch ever
Shanghaiski
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Antiochian
Posts: 7,970


Holy Trinity Church of Gergeti, Georgia


« Reply #46 on: May 26, 2011, 04:47:24 PM »

^ I really do agree with much of this sentiment, and I'm trying to live it more thoroughly. 

That said, haven't elements within the Church's teachings been in error from time to time?  People didn't simply trust the Church when Iconoclasm gained favor (I'm aware that some or much of Iconoclasm was imposed by outside forces).  Were people in Nestorius' jurisdiction supposed to "trust the Church" while he taught his heresy?  I believe that the Church corrects these errors, but teachings or prayers, in their many forms, may not be entirely accurate or representing the Church's understanding all of the time.

I don't mean to imply that our prayers are heretical.  I simply wonder about our position, as either inquirers or relatively informed laity, to try to better understand issues such as this.

I agree that questioning everything is a sort of infection that has arisen in many branches of Protestantism.  At the same time, is seeking to better understand entirely bad?  While I don't believe the RCC to currently be within the true Church (and hence, not fully guided by the Holy Spirit), couldn't it be argued that a failure to question certain teachings contributed to their errors and eventual departure?
 

But these prayers are not at all new and have been employed by many saints and millions of pious people over many centuries, so I don't see why one would think one needs to question them. It is not like they are an innovation. Iconoclasm and Nestorianism and Arianism, etc. were innovations. They cause disturbances because they were new and did not jive with what had been received. It's not like we're going to wake up one day and realize, "Oh my! We've been in error all this time!" At some point, one has to trust the Church, because it is the Church that gives us these prayers. Heresies come from individuals.
Logged

Quote from: GabrieltheCelt
If you spend long enough on this forum, you'll come away with all sorts of weird, untrue ideas of Orthodox Christianity.
Quote from: orthonorm
I would suggest most persons in general avoid any question beginning with why.
Cognomen
Site Supporter
OC.net guru
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Catholic
Jurisdiction: Phyletism Rules, OK
Posts: 1,968


Ungrateful Biped


« Reply #47 on: May 26, 2011, 04:56:45 PM »

But is the EO leaning more toward excessive Marian veneration, or away from it? It seems like the fruits are showing that these prayers do not lead to excessive veneration as often as in the RCC.

This is a very persuasive point for the legitimacy of the prayers. 
Logged

North American Eastern Orthodox Parish Council Delegate for the Canonization of Saints Twin Towers and Pentagon, as well as the Propagation of the Doctrine of the Assumption of Malaysia Airlines Flight MH370 (NAEOPCDCSTTPPDAMAFM®).
Cognomen
Site Supporter
OC.net guru
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Catholic
Jurisdiction: Phyletism Rules, OK
Posts: 1,968


Ungrateful Biped


« Reply #48 on: May 26, 2011, 05:22:53 PM »

But these prayers are not at all new and have been employed by many saints and millions of pious people over many centuries, so I don't see why one would think one needs to question them. It is not like they are an innovation. Iconoclasm and Nestorianism and Arianism, etc. were innovations. They cause disturbances because they were new and did not jive with what had been received. It's not like we're going to wake up one day and realize, "Oh my! We've been in error all this time!" At some point, one has to trust the Church, because it is the Church that gives us these prayers. Heresies come from individuals.

I take your point, but how new are they (that's a genuine question, not a point of argument)?  The increase in Marian devotion and the wording of prayer may be an innovation.  When using that word, I'm not ascribing a definitive negative value to "innovation."  The Divine Liturgy of St. John Chrysostom is innovative.  

There was an interesting thread a few weeks back that dealt with the history of Marian devotion: http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,35516.0.html
Unfortunately, apart from the Sub tuum praesidium, there was little information on this.  I am inclined to believe that we have followed the correct path, somewhere between the horrible denigration of the Holy Theotokos' role in many Protestant traditions and the heretical, and movements toward further heretical dogmas within the RCC.

Yes, countless holy people have used these prayers.  Similarly, I imagine that many holy people in 5th century Constantinople substituted Christotokos as well.  Again, I must stress that I am not arguing that these prayers are heretical in any way, simply wondering how we are supposed to approach questions like this.

I love the Orthodox Church, and I love my particular parish, but I also believe that there are Icons at my church which are theologically wrong, and resulted from relatively recent Western influence (not to get off on that topic).

Ultimately, I think you're right, and there is far more to be gained from simply following the teachings of the Church, rather than questioning them.  There are issues and debates which are pedantic and distracting, but I hope that searching for a better understanding of the development and meaning of our prayers isn't viewed among them.
« Last Edit: May 26, 2011, 05:25:36 PM by Cognomen » Logged

North American Eastern Orthodox Parish Council Delegate for the Canonization of Saints Twin Towers and Pentagon, as well as the Propagation of the Doctrine of the Assumption of Malaysia Airlines Flight MH370 (NAEOPCDCSTTPPDAMAFM®).
Volnutt
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Agnostic/Universalist
Posts: 3,107


« Reply #49 on: May 26, 2011, 07:42:25 PM »

Something that would go a long way to making me feel better would be if there were more prayers said, etc. specifically calling out to God. The Bible is rich with caring imagery applied to Christ and the Father. Abba, the Good Shepherd (I so love that icon), gathering Jerusalem like a hen to her chicks, etc.

This is not to say one should not call out to Mary as loving mother, but I'm concerned that posters in this thread and others "make everyday Mother's Day" to the exclusion of Father's Day, you know? If you were dying right now, would your last thoughts and crying out be of the Theotokos only?

I'm not meaning to judge, just trying to articulate my concerns.
Logged
orthonorm
Warned
Hoplitarches
*************
Offline Offline

Faith: Sola Gratia
Jurisdiction: Outside
Posts: 16,488



« Reply #50 on: May 26, 2011, 08:26:53 PM »

Something that would go a long way to making me feel better would be if there were more prayers said, etc. specifically calling out to God. The Bible is rich with caring imagery applied to Christ and the Father. Abba, the Good Shepherd (I so love that icon), gathering Jerusalem like a hen to her chicks, etc.

This is not to say one should not call out to Mary as loving mother, but I'm concerned that posters in this thread and others "make everyday Mother's Day" to the exclusion of Father's Day, you know? If you were dying right now, would your last thoughts and crying out be of the Theotokos only?

I'm not meaning to judge, just trying to articulate my concerns.

?

What is your prayer rule, if you care to share, cause for me and others I know the "Our Father" compromises a great deal of it along with other prayers to the Persons of the Trinity.
Logged

Ignorance is not a lack, but a passion.
Volnutt
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Agnostic/Universalist
Posts: 3,107


« Reply #51 on: May 26, 2011, 08:42:12 PM »

I'm not Orthodox. I just stick to semi-random, extemporaneous style prayers from my Pentecostal days, if you wanted to know. Plus some occasional prayers to the saints. My devotional life is pretty shabby, and for this I have no excuse.

I think I should just shut up, in fact. I'm putting my foot in my mouth. I should have known better regarding daily prayer rules. I've seen enough examples of what's in them. Yes, they are admirably God-centered.

I need to quit obsessing over the Peraklesis. Sorry.




Logged
akimori makoto
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Non-heretical Christian
Jurisdiction: Fully-sik-hektic archdiocese of Australia, bro
Posts: 3,126

No-one bound by fleshly pleasures is worthy ...


« Reply #52 on: May 26, 2011, 08:48:16 PM »

This is not to say one should not call out to Mary as loving mother, but I'm concerned that posters in this thread and others "make everyday Mother's Day" to the exclusion of Father's Day, you know? If you were dying right now, would your last thoughts and crying out be of the Theotokos only?

I'm not meaning to judge, just trying to articulate my concerns.

Does it help that the akathist is only celebrated four or five times a year (mother's day), whereas the Divine Liturgy (father's day) is celebrated at least once each week, and in some places every day?

For me, the best statements of the Orthodox attitude towards the Theotokos come from the Divine Liturgy itself:

1. Commemorating our all-holy, pure, most-blessed, glorious lady Theotokos and ever-virgin Mary and all the saints, let us commend ourselves and one another and our whole life unto Christ our God.

2. [silently] again we offer to you this spiritual worship for those who have gone to their rest in faith, forefathers, fathers, patriarchs, prophets, apostles, preachers, evangelists, martyrs, confessors, ascetics and every righteous spirit perfected in faith [and aloud] especially for our all-holy, pure, most-blessed, glorious lady Theotokos and ever-virgin Mary.

So many superlative adjectives of praise are attached to the Theotokos during the liturgy -- nevertheless, it is to Christ our God that we commend our whole life and to the eternal Father that we offer our spiritual worship, by the operation of the Spirit.
« Last Edit: May 26, 2011, 08:49:29 PM by akimori makoto » Logged

The Episcopallian road is easy and wide, for many go through it to find destruction. lol sorry channeling Isa.
Cognomen
Site Supporter
OC.net guru
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Catholic
Jurisdiction: Phyletism Rules, OK
Posts: 1,968


Ungrateful Biped


« Reply #53 on: May 26, 2011, 08:49:48 PM »

No worries, Volnutt.  What Orthonorm wrote is true.  Many people do not even have these hymns as part of their daily prayer rule, and the vast majority of other prayers, as you mentioned, are focused on/directed to the Holy Trinity.

I hope my inquiry into some of the phraseology didn't inadvertently imply that we don't adequately focus on the Holy Trinity; we do.  
Logged

North American Eastern Orthodox Parish Council Delegate for the Canonization of Saints Twin Towers and Pentagon, as well as the Propagation of the Doctrine of the Assumption of Malaysia Airlines Flight MH370 (NAEOPCDCSTTPPDAMAFM®).
Volnutt
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Agnostic/Universalist
Posts: 3,107


« Reply #54 on: May 26, 2011, 09:10:37 PM »

It's not you.

The past couple of days have opened some old wounds related to a big blow-up over these issues that happened on another forum. I have some stinging rebukes ringing in my ears and I'm trying hard to make sure I truly quiet them instead of just hiding them behind convenient rationalizations, not that anyone here is trying to make those.
Logged
akimori makoto
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Non-heretical Christian
Jurisdiction: Fully-sik-hektic archdiocese of Australia, bro
Posts: 3,126

No-one bound by fleshly pleasures is worthy ...


« Reply #55 on: May 26, 2011, 09:23:45 PM »

It's not you.

The past couple of days have opened some old wounds related to a big blow-up over these issues that happened on another forum. I have some stinging rebukes ringing in my ears and I'm trying hard to make sure I truly quiet them instead of just hiding them behind convenient rationalizations, not that anyone here is trying to make those.

I pray the charitable responses you've received here will encourage you, not drag you down!
Logged

The Episcopallian road is easy and wide, for many go through it to find destruction. lol sorry channeling Isa.
Shanghaiski
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Antiochian
Posts: 7,970


Holy Trinity Church of Gergeti, Georgia


« Reply #56 on: May 27, 2011, 10:19:09 AM »

It might help you to investigate the other prayers of the Orthodox Church. What we have is immense. There are prayers for everything--the daily hours of prayer, the liturgies, special services, morning and evening private prayers, etc. One has to look at the totality in order to judge rightly.
Logged

Quote from: GabrieltheCelt
If you spend long enough on this forum, you'll come away with all sorts of weird, untrue ideas of Orthodox Christianity.
Quote from: orthonorm
I would suggest most persons in general avoid any question beginning with why.
Volnutt
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Agnostic/Universalist
Posts: 3,107


« Reply #57 on: May 27, 2011, 11:09:55 PM »

I pray the charitable responses you've received here will encourage you, not drag you down!
Thanks, they are helping.

I didn't notice your previous post, also. That is helpful.

It might help you to investigate the other prayers of the Orthodox Church. What we have is immense. There are prayers for everything--the daily hours of prayer, the liturgies, special services, morning and evening private prayers, etc. One has to look at the totality in order to judge rightly.
Yeah, as someone said in another thread, I do have a tendency to miss the forest for the trees. I am very impressed with wealth of different prayers that there are in Orthodoxy!
Logged
Tags: Theotokos 
Pages: 1 2 All   Go Up
  Print  
 
Jump to:  

Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP Powered by SMF 1.1.18 | SMF © 2013, Simple Machines Valid XHTML 1.0! Valid CSS!
Page created in 0.203 seconds with 84 queries.