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JamesRottnek
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« Reply #225 on: March 05, 2012, 05:56:32 AM » |
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I believe there is also a Zoroastrian temple somewhere in America, but I can't recall where I've read this.
Anyways, I voted Jewish. If I were to lose faith in Orthodoxy, the only other Christian group I can possibly see as being true are the OO. However, if 'Orthodox' is to mean EO and OO, then I would go with Orthodox Judaism. The history of the Church leads me to believe that Catholicism, Protestantism, Nestorianism, etc. are all serious deviations from the True Church. If I were to ever join a Christian group that isn't Orthodox, it would be for reasons other than faith. And if I were to join a religion for something other than faith, I could probably pick a more interesting and free religion than some type of Christianity or Judaism, to convince myself of.
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I know a secret about a former Supreme Court Justice. Can you guess what it is?
The greatest tragedy in the world is when a cigarette ends.
American Spirits - the eco-friendly cigarette.
Preston Robert Kinney (September 8th, 1997-August 14, 2011
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Punch
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« Reply #226 on: March 05, 2012, 11:03:42 AM » |
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I believe there is also a Zoroastrian temple somewhere in America, but I can't recall where I've read this.
Anyways, I voted Jewish. If I were to lose faith in Orthodoxy, the only other Christian group I can possibly see as being true are the OO. However, if 'Orthodox' is to mean EO and OO, then I would go with Orthodox Judaism. The history of the Church leads me to believe that Catholicism, Protestantism, Nestorianism, etc. are all serious deviations from the True Church. If I were to ever join a Christian group that isn't Orthodox, it would be for reasons other than faith. And if I were to join a religion for something other than faith, I could probably pick a more interesting and free religion than some type of Christianity or Judaism, to convince myself of.
If I were to reject Orthodoxy, I would reject all of Christianity. I would also reject the Jewish religion since the Christian is only a logical (to me) fulfillment of the Jewish. That is why I would choose a religion that pre-dates even the Jewish and choose the Hindu or one of its derivatives. |
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I would be happy to agree with you, but then both of us would be wrong.
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Jetavan
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« Reply #227 on: March 05, 2012, 11:06:28 AM » |
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I believe there is also a Zoroastrian temple somewhere in America, but I can't recall where I've read this.
Anyways, I voted Jewish. If I were to lose faith in Orthodoxy, the only other Christian group I can possibly see as being true are the OO. However, if 'Orthodox' is to mean EO and OO, then I would go with Orthodox Judaism. The history of the Church leads me to believe that Catholicism, Protestantism, Nestorianism, etc. are all serious deviations from the True Church. If I were to ever join a Christian group that isn't Orthodox, it would be for reasons other than faith. And if I were to join a religion for something other than faith, I could probably pick a more interesting and free religion than some type of Christianity or Judaism, to convince myself of.
If I were to reject Orthodoxy, I would reject all of Christianity. I would also reject the Jewish religion since the Christian is only a logical (to me) fulfillment of the Jewish. That is why I would choose a religion that pre-dates even the Jewish and choose the Hindu or one of its derivatives. Wouldn't the religion one would choose, depend upon the precise reason why one rejected Orthodoxy? If you rejected Orthodoxy for one reason, you might become Jewish; if for another reason, you might become Hindu. |
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If you will, you can become all flame.
Extra caritatem nulla salus.
In order to become whole, take the "I" out of "holiness".
सर्वभूतहित
Ἄνω σχῶμεν τὰς καρδίας
"Those who say religion has nothing to do with politics do not know what religion is." -- Mohandas Gandhi
Y dduw bo'r diolch.
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Punch
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« Reply #228 on: March 05, 2012, 02:37:14 PM » |
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I believe there is also a Zoroastrian temple somewhere in America, but I can't recall where I've read this.
Anyways, I voted Jewish. If I were to lose faith in Orthodoxy, the only other Christian group I can possibly see as being true are the OO. However, if 'Orthodox' is to mean EO and OO, then I would go with Orthodox Judaism. The history of the Church leads me to believe that Catholicism, Protestantism, Nestorianism, etc. are all serious deviations from the True Church. If I were to ever join a Christian group that isn't Orthodox, it would be for reasons other than faith. And if I were to join a religion for something other than faith, I could probably pick a more interesting and free religion than some type of Christianity or Judaism, to convince myself of.
If I were to reject Orthodoxy, I would reject all of Christianity. I would also reject the Jewish religion since the Christian is only a logical (to me) fulfillment of the Jewish. That is why I would choose a religion that pre-dates even the Jewish and choose the Hindu or one of its derivatives. Wouldn't the religion one would choose, depend upon the precise reason why one rejected Orthodoxy? If you rejected Orthodoxy for one reason, you might become Jewish; if for another reason, you might become Hindu. Without Christianity to fulfill the Jewish religion, the whole "Chosen People" issue becomes BS. Chosen for what? To be the whipping boy of virtually every society that has come since? Judaism has no meaning outside of Christ. The Hindu have been around far longer, and actually make more sense. Their cyclic view of time is also more sensible than our liner timeline, since virtually everything in nature operates on a cycle. So, I suppose that you are correct. However, I can not see a reason that I would reject Christianity that would leave Judaism at all palatable. |
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I would be happy to agree with you, but then both of us would be wrong.
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Ortho_cat
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« Reply #229 on: March 05, 2012, 04:14:32 PM » |
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great thread!
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JamesRottnek
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« Reply #230 on: March 05, 2012, 05:29:12 PM » |
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I believe there is also a Zoroastrian temple somewhere in America, but I can't recall where I've read this.
Anyways, I voted Jewish. If I were to lose faith in Orthodoxy, the only other Christian group I can possibly see as being true are the OO. However, if 'Orthodox' is to mean EO and OO, then I would go with Orthodox Judaism. The history of the Church leads me to believe that Catholicism, Protestantism, Nestorianism, etc. are all serious deviations from the True Church. If I were to ever join a Christian group that isn't Orthodox, it would be for reasons other than faith. And if I were to join a religion for something other than faith, I could probably pick a more interesting and free religion than some type of Christianity or Judaism, to convince myself of.
If I were to reject Orthodoxy, I would reject all of Christianity. I would also reject the Jewish religion since the Christian is only a logical (to me) fulfillment of the Jewish. That is why I would choose a religion that pre-dates even the Jewish and choose the Hindu or one of its derivatives. Wouldn't the religion one would choose, depend upon the precise reason why one rejected Orthodoxy? If you rejected Orthodoxy for one reason, you might become Jewish; if for another reason, you might become Hindu. Without Christianity to fulfill the Jewish religion, the whole "Chosen People" issue becomes BS. Chosen for what? To be the whipping boy of virtually every society that has come since? Judaism has no meaning outside of Christ. The Hindu have been around far longer, and actually make more sense. Their cyclic view of time is also more sensible than our liner timeline, since virtually everything in nature operates on a cycle. So, I suppose that you are correct. However, I can not see a reason that I would reject Christianity that would leave Judaism at all palatable. If I were to reject Orthodoxy, I would have to reject all of Christendom, as well. But I would be doing so because I could no longer believe Christ is Messiah, and if He is not Messiah, then He certainly can't be God. However, there would be no reason from my point of view to reject Judaism, as its meaning wouldn't have changed since before Christ came; it would still be waiting for the messiah. However, if I were to go with a religion other than Judaism, it would probably be Zoroastrianism (though the Iranian Zoroastrians, of course, because the Parsees don't actually permit conversion). |
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I know a secret about a former Supreme Court Justice. Can you guess what it is?
The greatest tragedy in the world is when a cigarette ends.
American Spirits - the eco-friendly cigarette.
Preston Robert Kinney (September 8th, 1997-August 14, 2011
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Arachne
Trinary Unit || Resident Bossy Boots
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« Reply #231 on: January 02, 2013, 08:21:36 AM » |
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This thread is too good to stay dead.  If I were to reject Orthodoxy, I would have to reject all of Christendom, as well. Likewise. I used to think I could survive, at least for a while, as a RC or Anglican, but closer contact has disabused me of that notion. I'd have to move into paganism, most probably Druidry. (Ironically, the OBOD branch concentrates on the link to the land, instead of the faith/ritual aspect, so it is actually possible to have Christian and Jewish Druids among them. Go figure.) |
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'When you live your path all the time, you end up with both more path and more time.'~Venecia Rauls
Blog ~ Bookshelf ~ Jukebox |
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Cyrillic
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« Reply #232 on: January 02, 2013, 09:13:18 AM » |
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I went with the majority this time.
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« Last Edit: January 02, 2013, 09:21:27 AM by Cyrillic »
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"My idea of an agreeable person is a person who agrees with me"
-Benjamin Disraeli
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Gunnarr
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« Reply #233 on: January 07, 2013, 02:37:50 PM » |
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Donatist
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I am a demonic servant! Beware!
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orthonorm
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« Reply #234 on: January 07, 2013, 02:41:40 PM » |
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If I were to reject Orthodoxy, I would have to reject all of Christendom, as well
and become an Anglican. //:=) |
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Ignorance is not a lack, but a passion.
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orthonorm
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« Reply #235 on: January 07, 2013, 02:48:39 PM » |
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Islam is really cool when you see it the movies or on TV shows when they all do that simultaneous prostrating and ritual washing that is lit really well.
Islam is also really cool when you read its "philosophical" tradition and it teaches you everything the RCs have been holding on to for centuries and much more.
Islam is also really cool when you see all that architecture, calligraphy, and artsy stuff.
Islam is also really cool when you learn about it various alternatives to the "western" systemics of jurisprudence, economic systems, etc.
Then you read the Koran.
Or look at a youtube video by an American Islamic teacher and he sounds like the guy who tried really hard to be tough who you used to by crummy weed from in junior high.
Or see anything by Rumi or newage Sufism.
Then you realize Goethe musta had a guy who tried really hard to be tough selling him better weed.
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Ignorance is not a lack, but a passion.
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orthonorm
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« Reply #236 on: January 07, 2013, 02:56:47 PM » |
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I'd have to move into paganism, most probably Druidry.
Worshiping Celestia makes more sense. |
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Ignorance is not a lack, but a passion.
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Jetavan
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« Reply #237 on: January 07, 2013, 02:59:05 PM » |
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Or see anything by Rumi....
You don't like Rumi?  |
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If you will, you can become all flame.
Extra caritatem nulla salus.
In order to become whole, take the "I" out of "holiness".
सर्वभूतहित
Ἄνω σχῶμεν τὰς καρδίας
"Those who say religion has nothing to do with politics do not know what religion is." -- Mohandas Gandhi
Y dduw bo'r diolch.
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OrthoNoob
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« Reply #238 on: January 07, 2013, 03:09:42 PM » |
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I might be Roman Catholic. But if not, I would definitely be Roman Pagan.
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orthonorm
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« Reply #239 on: January 07, 2013, 03:14:13 PM » |
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Or see anything by Rumi....
You don't like Rumi? Sometimes you can't remove the context in which you found things sufficiently enough. Rumi is on the shelf next to Wayne Dyer, Women who Run with Wolves, and Our Bodies, Our Selves. Edition XXIV. Now with your own speculum! |
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Ignorance is not a lack, but a passion.
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Eastern Mind
Hi! I'm Olaf and I like warm hugs!
High Elder
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Faith: Orthodox Hopeful
Jurisdiction: Greece
Posts: 713
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« Reply #240 on: January 07, 2013, 03:46:19 PM » |
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I'd have to move into paganism, most probably Druidry.
Worshiping Celestia makes more sense. That, and most "Druids" aren't really practicing anything other than neo-"celtic" crap. If you must be a Celtic Neopagan, at least become a Celtic Recon. At least they stick to history. |
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"ALL THE GODS OF THE HINDUS ARE DEMONS HAHAHAHAHA!!"
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Arachne
Trinary Unit || Resident Bossy Boots
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Jurisdiction: Antiochian Archdiocese of the British Isles and Ireland
Posts: 5,064
Now with bigger boots!
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« Reply #241 on: January 07, 2013, 03:51:54 PM » |
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Worshiping Celestia makes more sense.
Which one? That, and most "Druids" aren't really practicing anything other than neo-"celtic" crap. If you must be a Celtic Neopagan, at least become a Celtic Recon. At least they stick to history. Please. I've been around recons. The quibbling would drive anyone nuts. Especially since there's very little to reconstruct, seeing as history says diddly squat (and myths, as is their wont, tangle like a cat toy). |
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'When you live your path all the time, you end up with both more path and more time.'~Venecia Rauls
Blog ~ Bookshelf ~ Jukebox |
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walter1234
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« Reply #242 on: January 07, 2013, 03:54:30 PM » |
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Why do so many people here choose the Catholic? Is Catholic closer or more similar to Orthodoxy by comparing with other christianity?
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« Last Edit: January 07, 2013, 03:55:51 PM by walter1234 »
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Eastern Mind
Hi! I'm Olaf and I like warm hugs!
High Elder
Offline
Faith: Orthodox Hopeful
Jurisdiction: Greece
Posts: 713
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« Reply #243 on: January 07, 2013, 03:57:07 PM » |
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Please. I've been around recons. The quibbling would drive anyone nuts. Especially since there's very little to reconstruct, seeing as history says diddly squat (and myths, as is their wont, tangle like a cat toy). Ha! Very good point. They do tend to sit around and bicker than they do practice. Or they just become walking encyclopedias. But, I actually prefer them to Hellenic Recons. Those people drive me nuts. |
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"ALL THE GODS OF THE HINDUS ARE DEMONS HAHAHAHAHA!!"
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Arachne
Trinary Unit || Resident Bossy Boots
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Protokentarchos
Offline
Faith: Cradle Greek Orthodox. Deal with it.
Jurisdiction: Antiochian Archdiocese of the British Isles and Ireland
Posts: 5,064
Now with bigger boots!
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« Reply #244 on: January 07, 2013, 04:02:56 PM » |
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But, I actually prefer them to Hellenic Recons. Those people drive me nuts. I've known decent HRs. YSEE members are NOT among those. More than driving people nuts, they ARE nuts. |
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'When you live your path all the time, you end up with both more path and more time.'~Venecia Rauls
Blog ~ Bookshelf ~ Jukebox |
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Justin Kissel
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« Reply #245 on: January 07, 2013, 04:09:20 PM » |
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Why do so many people here choose the Catholic? Is Catholic closer or more similar to Orthodoxy by comparing with other christianity?
IMO the closest are Eastern Orthodoxy and Oriental Orthodoxy, but Catholicism and Orthodoxy are closer than most groups would be. |
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Eastern Mind
Hi! I'm Olaf and I like warm hugs!
High Elder
Offline
Faith: Orthodox Hopeful
Jurisdiction: Greece
Posts: 713
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« Reply #246 on: January 07, 2013, 04:14:16 PM » |
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But, I actually prefer them to Hellenic Recons. Those people drive me nuts. I've known decent HRs. YSEE members are NOT among those. More than driving people nuts, they ARE nuts. Never ran into those, but I'm looking at their website right now. |
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"ALL THE GODS OF THE HINDUS ARE DEMONS HAHAHAHAHA!!"
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orthonorm
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« Reply #247 on: January 07, 2013, 04:37:48 PM » |
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But, I actually prefer them to Hellenic Recons. Those people drive me nuts. I've known decent HRs. YSEE members are NOT among those. More than driving people nuts, they ARE nuts. Do they use dice or are we talking more simplified game mechanics? Like rock, paper, scissors? |
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Ignorance is not a lack, but a passion.
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Arachne
Trinary Unit || Resident Bossy Boots
Section Moderator
Protokentarchos
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Faith: Cradle Greek Orthodox. Deal with it.
Jurisdiction: Antiochian Archdiocese of the British Isles and Ireland
Posts: 5,064
Now with bigger boots!
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« Reply #248 on: January 07, 2013, 04:47:12 PM » |
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Do they use dice or are we talking more simplified game mechanics? Like rock, paper, scissors?
Knucklebones, if I'm not mistaken. |
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'When you live your path all the time, you end up with both more path and more time.'~Venecia Rauls
Blog ~ Bookshelf ~ Jukebox |
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JamesR
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« Reply #249 on: January 07, 2013, 05:47:29 PM » |
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How about an Aztec neo-pagan like my ancestors? Conventional religions are boring and overrated.
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You're really on to something here. Tattoo to keep you from masturbating, chew to keep you from fornicating... it's a whole new world where you outsource your crosses. You're like a Christian entrepreneur or something. James, you have problemz. |
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orthonorm
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« Reply #250 on: January 07, 2013, 05:51:19 PM » |
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How about an Aztec neo-pagan like my ancestors? Conventional religions are boring and overrated.
The religion of your people (Californians) is Scientology which is a huge step up from anything with the word pagan in it. |
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Ignorance is not a lack, but a passion.
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J Michael
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« Reply #251 on: January 07, 2013, 05:52:36 PM » |
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How about an Aztec neo-pagan like my ancestors?
Complete with human sacrifice? .jpg/300px-Codex_Magliabechiano_(141_cropped).jpg) Wow! |
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"May Thy Cross, O Lord, in which I seek refuge, be for me a bridge across the great river of fire. May I pass along it to the habitation of life." ~St. Ephraim the Syrian
"Sometimes you're the windshield. Sometimes you're the bug." ~ Mark Knopfler (?)
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JamesR
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« Reply #252 on: January 07, 2013, 05:53:29 PM » |
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How about an Aztec neo-pagan like my ancestors? Conventional religions are boring and overrated.
The religion of your people (Californians) is Scientology which is a huge step up from anything with the word pagan in it. |
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You're really on to something here. Tattoo to keep you from masturbating, chew to keep you from fornicating... it's a whole new world where you outsource your crosses. You're like a Christian entrepreneur or something. James, you have problemz. |
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J Michael
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« Reply #253 on: January 07, 2013, 05:53:39 PM » |
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How about an Aztec neo-pagan like my ancestors? Conventional religions are boring and overrated.
The religion of your people (Californians) is Scientology which is a huge step up from anything with the word pagan in it. He's talkin' 'bout his *ancestors*, not his *people*.  |
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"May Thy Cross, O Lord, in which I seek refuge, be for me a bridge across the great river of fire. May I pass along it to the habitation of life." ~St. Ephraim the Syrian
"Sometimes you're the windshield. Sometimes you're the bug." ~ Mark Knopfler (?)
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J Michael
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« Reply #254 on: January 07, 2013, 05:54:10 PM » |
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How about an Aztec neo-pagan like my ancestors? Conventional religions are boring and overrated.
The religion of your people (Californians) is Scientology which is a huge step up from anything with the word pagan in it. Hope you weren't in there with him. |
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"May Thy Cross, O Lord, in which I seek refuge, be for me a bridge across the great river of fire. May I pass along it to the habitation of life." ~St. Ephraim the Syrian
"Sometimes you're the windshield. Sometimes you're the bug." ~ Mark Knopfler (?)
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orthonorm
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« Reply #255 on: January 07, 2013, 06:00:50 PM » |
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How about an Aztec neo-pagan like my ancestors?
Complete with human sacrifice? Wow! It's California, they have a soy alternative. And unfortunately, it is not PEOPLE! |
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Ignorance is not a lack, but a passion.
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Jetavan
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« Reply #256 on: January 07, 2013, 06:04:07 PM » |
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Soylent Green is people.
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If you will, you can become all flame.
Extra caritatem nulla salus.
In order to become whole, take the "I" out of "holiness".
सर्वभूतहित
Ἄνω σχῶμεν τὰς καρδίας
"Those who say religion has nothing to do with politics do not know what religion is." -- Mohandas Gandhi
Y dduw bo'r diolch.
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orthonorm
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« Reply #257 on: January 07, 2013, 06:06:44 PM » |
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Soylent Green is people.
Dude, it no longer does. It's even gluten free. It contains absolutely nothing, except Californians, which is to say nothing. |
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Ignorance is not a lack, but a passion.
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Nephi
Monster Tamer
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Jurisdiction: Greek Orthodox Church of Antioch
Posts: 4,756
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« Reply #258 on: January 07, 2013, 07:57:25 PM » |
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If neither Orthodox (EO/OO) nor their splinter groups, then probably Roman Catholic (traditionalist or sedevecantist). If not RC, then it'd be a toss-up between Pure Land Buddhism, Baha'i, Zoroastrianism, and Sikhism.
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« Last Edit: January 07, 2013, 07:59:29 PM by Nephi »
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Jetavan
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« Reply #259 on: January 07, 2013, 08:09:40 PM » |
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If neither Orthodox (EO/OO) nor their splinter groups, then probably Roman Catholic (traditionalist or sedevecantist). If not RC, then it'd be a toss-up between Pure Land Buddhism, Baha'i, Zoroastrianism, and Sikhism.
Why not become Jewish and pray for the Messiah? |
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If you will, you can become all flame.
Extra caritatem nulla salus.
In order to become whole, take the "I" out of "holiness".
सर्वभूतहित
Ἄνω σχῶμεν τὰς καρδίας
"Those who say religion has nothing to do with politics do not know what religion is." -- Mohandas Gandhi
Y dduw bo'r diolch.
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adampjr
Karamazov
Member
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Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Antioch
Posts: 89
Penguin
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« Reply #260 on: January 07, 2013, 08:18:12 PM » |
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Probably I'd remain Presbyterian. I like a lot about that group, but I think I've found more Orthodoxy and we will probably become catachumens this year. If it didn't exist I think i'd remain as I am.
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Nephi
Monster Tamer
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« Reply #261 on: January 07, 2013, 08:20:07 PM » |
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Why not become Jewish and pray for the Messiah? Frankly I don't think that Rabbinic Judaism is the faith of ancient Israel. It's too obviously, in my opinion, a later development and much in response to Christianity. Their definitive Oral Torah claims in particular. Although I do have a decent respect for Hasidic beliefs after meeting a Chabaud Center's rabbi. |
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WPM
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« Reply #262 on: January 07, 2013, 08:24:28 PM » |
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Re: What faith would you be if you weren't Orthodox? Probably Agnostic or MultiCultural Religion. |
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jmbejdl
Count-Palatine James the Spurious of Giggleswick on the Naze
OC.net guru
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Great Martyr St. John the New of Suceava
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« Reply #263 on: January 08, 2013, 04:31:04 AM » |
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I think I'd be of no faith whatsoever if I weren't Orthodox. Rejecting Orthodoxy would mean rejecting Christianity to me and I certainly can't think of another major religion I could be happy with. Judaism and Islam would certainly be out - Judaism without its fulfilment in Christ seems like a nonsense and I find Islam to be repulsive. I certainly couldn't be a Buddhist again either. As I've tried and failed to be atheist in the past I suspect that I'd either end up retreating into my own personal 'spirituality' or indulging in some sort of syncretist pick-and-choosery, which is much the same thing. Of course, with my background in psychology I'd likely justify that as some sort of personally meaningful symbolism rather than any objective reality.
James
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We owe greater gratitude to those who humble us, wrong us, and douse us with venom, than to those who nurse us with honour and sweet words, or feed us with tasty food and confections, for bile is the best medicine for our soul. - Elder Paisios of Mount Athos
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tweety234
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« Reply #264 on: January 15, 2013, 03:34:01 PM » |
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Zoroastrian
why is that? and what denomination of that would you be? still an orthodox? |
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“God has no religion.”
― Mohandas Karamchand Gandhi
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tweety234
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« Reply #265 on: January 15, 2013, 03:40:53 PM » |
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Sufi Islam
yeah. It is the only islamic sect that I love. But I think there are some suffi groups you could be a member of, without having to be a muslim. As long as you confess that there is only one God. These groups don't care how you call this God, as long as you truly accept that there is only one God. |
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“God has no religion.”
― Mohandas Karamchand Gandhi
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mike
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« Reply #266 on: January 15, 2013, 03:42:33 PM » |
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Zoroastrian
why is that? and what denomination of that would you be? still an orthodox? Reminds me of a joke: A few thugs assault a man in Belfast: - Are you Catholic or Protestant? - Gentlemen, I'm Jewish - the guy responds. After a few seconds of hesitation: - OK. Are you Catholic Jewish or Protestant Jewish? |
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« Last Edit: January 15, 2013, 03:49:09 PM by Michał Kalina »
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NicholasMyra
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« Reply #267 on: January 15, 2013, 03:50:11 PM » |
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If required to choose a non-Christian religion, Krishna seems like an okay guy.
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if Christ does and says x. And someone else does and says not x and you are ever in doubt, follow Christ.
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NicholasMyra
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« Reply #268 on: January 15, 2013, 03:53:10 PM » |
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I'd have to move into paganism, most probably Druidry.
Worshiping Celestia makes more sense. Or her siblings Inanna and Dumuzid:  |
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« Last Edit: January 15, 2013, 03:58:04 PM by NicholasMyra »
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if Christ does and says x. And someone else does and says not x and you are ever in doubt, follow Christ.
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minasoliman
Mr., Sir, Dude, Guy, Male, tr. Minas in Greek, Menes in white people Egyptologists :-P
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Toumarches
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Faith: Oriental Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Coptic Orthodox Archdiocese of North America
Posts: 13,177
Strengthen O Lord the work of Your hands(Is 19:25)
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« Reply #269 on: January 15, 2013, 04:03:56 PM » |
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Edition XXIV. Now with your own speculum![/i]
I choked on my coffee reading this...thanks for the mental image  |
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Vain existence can never exist, for "unless the LORD builds the house, the builders labor in vain." (Psalm 127)
If the faith is unchanged and rock solid, then the gates of Hades never prevailed in the end.
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