OrthodoxChristianity.net
December 20, 2014, 02:06:21 PM *
Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
News: Reminder: No political discussions in the public fora.  If you do not have access to the private Politics Forum, please send a PM to Fr. George.
 
   Home   Help Calendar Contact Treasury Tags Login Register  
Pages: « 1 2  All   Go Down
  Print  
Author Topic: Orthodoxy and Non-denominationalism  (Read 12445 times) Average Rating: 0
0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.
Νεκτάριος
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Posts: 5,437



« Reply #45 on: October 06, 2007, 08:38:51 PM »

I think the very fact there has always been such a problem within Christianity of doctrinal unity speaks most clearly that scripture is not self interpreting.  From the very beginning various sects were competing with proto-orthodoxy (I don't think any noted historians really disagree with this).  Even after making proto-orthodoxy the religion of the Empire, other sects proliferated (the Arians made deep roots in the West) and some like the non-Chalcedonians and the Assyrian Church of the East exist to this day.  Even among the early reformers there was a great deal of disunity in doctrine.  So if the interpretation of scripture is so self evident, why are there so many groups with minor to major doctrinal differences all with the Scriptures as their foundation? 
Logged
ozgeorge
I'll take you for who you are if you take me for everything.
Hoplitarches
*************
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Oecumenical Patriarchate of Constantinople, the New Rome, the Great Church of Christ.
Posts: 16,382


My plans for retirement.


WWW
« Reply #46 on: October 06, 2007, 08:41:20 PM »

I think the very fact there has always been such a problem within Christianity of doctrinal unity speaks most clearly that scripture is not self interpreting.  From the very beginning various sects were competing with proto-orthodoxy (I don't think any noted historians really disagree with this).  Even after making proto-orthodoxy the religion of the Empire, other sects proliferated (the Arians made deep roots in the West) and some like the non-Chalcedonians and the Assyrian Church of the East exist to this day.  Even among the early reformers there was a great deal of disunity in doctrine.  So if the interpretation of scripture is so self evident, why are there so many groups with minor to major doctrinal differences all with the Scriptures as their foundation? 

BINGO!
Logged

If you're living a happy life as a Christian, you're doing something wrong.
yes halloween is evil
Newbie
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 19

The One And Only For All (Jesus)


WWW
« Reply #47 on: October 06, 2007, 09:04:35 PM »

Errr....the Gospels didn't exist yet. Paul wrote his Epistles before the first Gospel was written.

I mean the Gospel of Jesus, not the written Gospel of Jesus recorded in the NT.
Logged

1 Peter 5:6-7: "Therefore humble yourselves under the mighty hand of God, that He may exalt you in due time, casting all your care upon Him, for He cares for you." (NKJV)
yes halloween is evil
Newbie
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 19

The One And Only For All (Jesus)


WWW
« Reply #48 on: October 06, 2007, 09:05:58 PM »

I think the very fact there has always been such a problem within Christianity of doctrinal unity speaks most clearly that scripture is not self interpreting.  From the very beginning various sects were competing with proto-orthodoxy (I don't think any noted historians really disagree with this).  Even after making proto-orthodoxy the religion of the Empire, other sects proliferated (the Arians made deep roots in the West) and some like the non-Chalcedonians and the Assyrian Church of the East exist to this day.  Even among the early reformers there was a great deal of disunity in doctrine.  So if the interpretation of scripture is so self evident, why are there so many groups with minor to major doctrinal differences all with the Scriptures as their foundation?
Human weakness; not relying on God for the correct interpretation.
« Last Edit: October 06, 2007, 09:06:39 PM by yes halloween is evil » Logged

1 Peter 5:6-7: "Therefore humble yourselves under the mighty hand of God, that He may exalt you in due time, casting all your care upon Him, for He cares for you." (NKJV)
ozgeorge
I'll take you for who you are if you take me for everything.
Hoplitarches
*************
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Oecumenical Patriarchate of Constantinople, the New Rome, the Great Church of Christ.
Posts: 16,382


My plans for retirement.


WWW
« Reply #49 on: October 06, 2007, 09:09:01 PM »

I mean the Gospel of Jesus, not the written Gospel of Jesus recorded in the NT.
I see, so therefore, Scripture alone cannot be the basis of the Christian Faith? Well done! you are on your way to Orthodox Christianity!
I know you are sure you are correct in your views, but the only thing which is really self-evident is the fact that your view is incorrect. Scripture is not "self-interpreting". And I know that this fact will be resisted by you for some time, since it challenges and overturns the basic premises on which your beliefs rest. I'm reminded of the quote by the German Philosopher Arthur Schopenhauer: "All truth passes through three stages. First, it is ridiculed. Second, it is violently opposed. Third, it is accepted as being self-evident."
It is quite possible that God led you to find this forum for a reason.
Logged

If you're living a happy life as a Christian, you're doing something wrong.
yes halloween is evil
Newbie
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 19

The One And Only For All (Jesus)


WWW
« Reply #50 on: October 06, 2007, 10:10:03 PM »

I see, so therefore, Scripture alone cannot be the basis of the Christian Faith? Well done! you are on your way to Orthodox Christianity!
I know you are sure you are correct in your views, but the only thing which is really self-evident is the fact that your view is incorrect. Scripture is not "self-interpreting". And I know that this fact will be resisted by you for some time, since it challenges and overturns the basic premises on which your beliefs rest. I'm reminded of the quote by the German Philosopher Arthur Schopenhauer: "All truth passes through three stages. First, it is ridiculed. Second, it is violently opposed. Third, it is accepted as being self-evident."
It is quite possible that God led you to find this forum for a reason.

I didn't say that Scripture alone can't be the basis for the Christian faith. The Scripture is the Old Testament. What I'm saying is that the Apostles taught from the Word Of God (which is found throughout the entire Bible in the Scriptures, Gospel, Epistles and Revelation) and the Word Of God is Jesus. They had the written Scriptures, but the written NT didn't come until later, of course, so they taught from the written word of God in the Scriptures and from what they were taught by Jesus. If, therefore, the Word of God is Jesus then the whole basis for what the Apostles are teaching is never contradictory to the Bible. I never said that if a piece of writing isn't included in the standard Bible that I have, for example, than it's absolutely not real or correct. I'm simply saying that if a writing, whoever recorded it, contradicts the teachings that are include the Bible which contains the infallible Word Of God, then it can't be true. When I say that we should live by the Bible, I mean that we should live by the Word Of God in all its forms. But, it's very dangerous to accept a writing that is not included in the Bible already because there is a reason is wasn't included in the first place (whatever reason that might be). It's dangerous to assume that what someone says is a prophecy is actually a prophecy unless it proves itself. That's why one always needs to refer back to the Word Of God. If a teaching contradicts Scripture and the teachings of Jesus (who fulfills the Law though did not destroy it), then it's not the Truth. It's a false teaching originated from satan. I purposely choose to not believe a writing that claims to be the Word Of God that is not found in the Bible unless I know for sure that it is the Word Of God, and I can only know that if it does not contradict the Word Of God. None of the writings in the Bible contradict one another, so if there is a writing that does contradict the Bible, then it can't be true and it is not of God, but of satan and therefore evil.

The main problem that I have with what I have come to find out about the Orthodox Church (and I don't know everything about it) are its false teachings, and the fact that the Orthodox Church seems to believe that they are the true church and that whatever they say goes simply because the Orthodox churches might have originated with the Apostles. At least, that's the impression that I've received since posting on this forum throughout the day. I call to mind that even satan originated with God when he was an angel of God. And, like I said before, even the Apostles warned of false teachers and false prophets from amongst their own group (2 Peter 2:1-3; Acts 20:29-30).

I do believe that there is a reason for everything. I questioned why I was brought to this forum and I'm not sure exactly why I was led here. I think that it was God's will for me to see the perspective of the Orthodox Christian and see what they believe in as I didn't know very much about it before I came to this forum. This kind of experience has happened to me with other sects of Christianity as well, such as Roman Catholicism (which Orthodox Christianity seems very similar to, imo). And it has also happened to me with Judaism. I don't know for sure, but I'm thinking that God brought me on this forum also to reach out to the people on this board with the Truth of the Word Of God and I also have had the opportunity to pray for the people of this board.

Despite at least some people's efforts on this board, I will not ever want to become an Orthodox Christian and join the Orthodox Church. I will always want to be a Christian and live by the Word Of God. And, I pray against deception of the Body Of Christ in Jesus Name. Amen.   

Colossians 2:8-15: "Let no one take you captive by means of empty, deceptive philosophy, which is based on human traditions and worldly principles, rather than on Christ."
« Last Edit: October 06, 2007, 10:13:43 PM by yes halloween is evil » Logged

1 Peter 5:6-7: "Therefore humble yourselves under the mighty hand of God, that He may exalt you in due time, casting all your care upon Him, for He cares for you." (NKJV)
Cephas
There is no spoon.
Elder
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Coptic Orthodox
Jurisdiction: See of St. Mark
Posts: 288

γνῶθισε αυτόν


« Reply #51 on: October 06, 2007, 10:16:32 PM »

+ Irini nem ehmot,

Quote
The main problem that I have with what I have come to find out about the Orthodox Church (and I don't know everything about it) are its false teachings

You have said this a couple of times now, and have yet to back it up with any sort of evidence.  Could you please illustrate what you mean by 'false teachings'.
Logged

Cephas 

"But he was wounded for our transgressions, crushed for our iniquities; upon him was the punishment that made us whole, and by his bruises we are healed."
-- Isaiah 53:5

"He who knows himself knows God"
-- Pi Nishti Abba Antony
ozgeorge
I'll take you for who you are if you take me for everything.
Hoplitarches
*************
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Oecumenical Patriarchate of Constantinople, the New Rome, the Great Church of Christ.
Posts: 16,382


My plans for retirement.


WWW
« Reply #52 on: October 06, 2007, 10:19:29 PM »

I think we are entering the second stage:
I'm reminded of the quote by the German Philosopher Arthur Schopenhauer: "All truth passes through three stages. First, it is ridiculed. Second, it is violently opposed. Third, it is accepted as being self-evident."
Cheesy
Logged

If you're living a happy life as a Christian, you're doing something wrong.
minasoliman
Mr., Sir, Dude, Guy, Male, tr. Minas in Greek, Menes in white people Egyptologists :-P
Section Moderator
Toumarches
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Oriental Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Coptic Orthodox Archdiocese of North America
Posts: 12,963


Strengthen O Lord the work of Your hands(Is 19:25)


« Reply #53 on: October 06, 2007, 10:41:34 PM »

The verse in Collosians talked about a certain Gnostic sect that believed in some sort of "secret knowledge" and "wisdom" that gives people salvation.  It has nothing to do with Orthodox Christians.

Likewise, the idea of false teachers have a lot to do with those the Apostles themselves knew.  Again, has nothing to do with Orthodox Christians.

In fact, these verses can be used against "non-denominational Christians."  You may very well be the false prophet trying to deceive us all with your man-interpreted wisdom and your deceptions and "false teachings" that you think come from God.

So far, you haven't proven that Scripture is self-interpreting.  All you have said is, "I know I'm right, and I know you're wrong.  You're all a bunch of false-believing people."

Sure, that really convinces me.  Wink

I hope you realize how ridiculous you sound.

God bless you.
Logged

Vain existence can never exist, for "unless the LORD builds the house, the builders labor in vain." (Psalm 127)

If the faith is unchanged and rock solid, then the gates of Hades never prevailed in the end.
PeterTheAleut
The Right Blowhard Peter the Furtive of Yetts O'Muckhart
Moderator
Protospatharios
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: OCA
Posts: 33,153


Lord, have mercy on the Christians in Mosul!


« Reply #54 on: October 06, 2007, 10:54:56 PM »

yes halloween is evil, how thorough is your knowledge of the history of Christianity?  Does your understanding go all the way back to the Apostles, or does history start for you with the date your sect was founded?  You see, I left the Protestant traditions when I discovered that their knowledge of Church history goes only as far back as the 1500s.
Logged
lubeltri
Latin Catholic layman
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Faith: Catholic
Jurisdiction: Archdiocese of Boston
Posts: 3,795



« Reply #55 on: October 06, 2007, 11:00:42 PM »

such as Roman Catholicism (which Orthodox Christianity seems very similar to, imo).

 Shocked Careful now! You could get your butt kicked saying something like that here.  Cheesy

Well, my friend, we agree with you. Our teachings can't contradict the Bible, and we believe that they don't. But remember, the Bible is the truth, but not all truth is contained in the Bible. Jesus said and did a lot more than what is contained in the 100 pages or so of the Gospels. The Apostles said and did a lot more than what is contained in the other books. One way to help us 21st-century folk interpret the Bible is to look to the guidance of the Fathers all together, who lived much closer to the Apostolic age and had a much better understanding of the context than we do. A good number of the Fathers lived in a time when the canon that we know of as the New Testament was not settled yet. In other words, they were there during its formation. They looked to the tradition passed down from the Apostles through the Church and used this understanding (with the guidance of the Holy Spirit) to figure out what of the many books floating around the Mediterranean world at the time were true inspired Scripture.

God bless you
Logged
Νεκτάριος
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Posts: 5,437



« Reply #56 on: October 06, 2007, 11:10:22 PM »

Quote
Human weakness; not relying on God for the correct interpretation.

So your interpretation is the only God inspired one.  Interesting. 

Of all the major sects of Christianity with mutually exclusive understandings of scripture, which one doesn't claim to be God inspired?  That still makes my point entirely valid, the Scriptures aren't self interpreting. 
Logged
PeterTheAleut
The Right Blowhard Peter the Furtive of Yetts O'Muckhart
Moderator
Protospatharios
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: OCA
Posts: 33,153


Lord, have mercy on the Christians in Mosul!


« Reply #57 on: October 06, 2007, 11:20:32 PM »

So your interpretation is the only God inspired one.  Interesting. 

Of all the major sects of Christianity with mutually exclusive understandings of scripture, which one doesn't claim to be God inspired?  That still makes my point entirely valid, the Scriptures aren't self interpreting. 
Yes, when two people claim to have the Holy Spirit's interpretation of the Scriptures, yet the interpretations differ from and even contradict each other, who wins?  Certainly, the Holy Spirit cannot contradict Himself.
Logged
prodromas
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Eastern Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Under the Green Pope
Posts: 1,239

Greek Orthodox


« Reply #58 on: October 07, 2007, 07:37:48 AM »

I think everyone here needs to take a step back and truly think about what they say to our brother in Christ yes Halloween is evil because it could forever damage his ideas about Orthodoxy and cause a disgust which would make him never want to peruse anymore information about it. Now I believe I understand your position yes halloween is evil but I want to ask you a couple of straight foward questions:

1.What exactly brought you to this forum? (random searching on Google, friend of Orthodox, read discrediting things on an apologetic website etc)
2. These supposed false teachings you speak of could you please explicitly state them for us to possibly explain for you? (e.g Saints, the Virgin Mary, the Eucharist etc)
3. What is your understanding of the history of the Christian church and Holy scripture (e.g The Ecumenical councils, how the bible was put together in to the form we see it now)

Please do not get offended by my questions or the other posters for that is truly not their purpose only to help and maybe understand my own positions further. One thing I've learned was that no matter how self-evident a belief is of your you always have to question it because sometimes we get to comfortable with them and forget how we got to them.
Logged

The sins I don't commit are largely due to the weakness of my limbs.

1915-1923 Հայոց Ցեղասպանութիւն ,never again,
ܩܛܠܐ ܕܥܡܐ ܐܬܘܪܝܐ 1920-1914, never again,
השואה  1933-1945, never again,
(1914-1923) Ελληνική Γενοκτονία, never again
Didymus
Peace and grace.
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Faith: Oriental Orthodox
Jurisdiction: HG Coptic Bishop Anba Daniel of Sydney
Posts: 563


St. Thomas Didymus the Apostle of India


« Reply #59 on: October 07, 2007, 01:24:39 PM »

PeterTheAleut, thanks for that note however I typed it before this new thread was created. Please forgive any confusion.

Given that we have an EO-OO board and an Orthodox-Catholic board, it would seem to make sense to have one for Protestants as well
Fine idea!

I believe that everyone who has been baptized in the name of the Trinity is a Christian. I just think that Protestants are "catechumens" still.
That's an interesting view about Protestants. May I please point out though that not all Protestants dunk in the name of the Holy Trinity.
Considering that this person appears to have links with Armstrong's movement there is a chance that the dunking was only in the name of Jesus (or perhaps even Yeshua or some other variant as the so-called Sacred Name movements have many alternatives).
~~~
Following this point in my post I'm not going to reply to everything just yet as some issues have already been spoken through and other people are providing helpful discussion (thank you very much Smiley) aside from the fact that it's almost 2 am here (as I begin this post)!
A few things ought to be raised though so I'll mention them.

None of the writings in the Bible contradict one another,
Just the other day in another Forum I asked a person to shorten his list of 23 "contradictions" in the Holy Bible to seven as it would waste my time to reply to some which had such obvious explanations. (This person is yet to post a list despite replying to other parts of my post.) I had said to him that if he understood the Holy Bible as the Orthodox Church which wrote the Holy Bible does then he would not have trouble understanding these apparent contradictions which he thought he had found. Here are a few which we Orthodox can resolve and I'm just wondering how you might do so please:
God is all powerful Jer 32:27/ Matt 19:26
God is not all powerful Judg 1:19
God gives freely to those who ask James 1:5/ Luke 11:10
God withholds his blessings and prevents men from receiving them John 12:40/ Josh 11:20/ Is 63:17
God is to be found by those who seek him Matt 7:8/ Prov 8:17
God is not to be found by those who seek him Prov 1:28
God is warlike Ex 15:3/ Is 51:15
God is peaceful Rom 15:33/ 1 Cor 14:33
God accepts human sacrifices 2 Sam 21:8,9,14/ Gen 22:2/ Judg 11:30-32,34,38,39
God forbids human sacrifice Deut 12:30,31
God cannot lie Heb 6:18
God lies by proxy; he sends forth lying spirits to deceive 2 Thes 2:11/ 1 Kings 22:23/ Ezek 14:9

Please be aware that I do not believe the Holy Bible contradicts itself but am merely wondering whether you could answer a person who presented you with such verses.
The Church does so quite easily and quickly frequently.

the Orthodox churches might have originated with the Apostles.

If you doubt that here are some lists for you to examine:

The Throne of St. Peter in the Syrian Orthodox Church;
1 St. Peter the Apostle 2 St. Evodius 3 St. Ignatios I Nurono (the Illuminator) 4 St. Heron 5 St. Korneilos 6 St. Heros 7 St. Theophilos 8 St. Maximos I 9 St. Seraphion 10 St. Ascelpiadis the Confessor 11 Philitus 12 Zbina 13 St. Babulas the Martyr 14 Fabius  15 S. Demetrianos 16 Paul I of Samosate 17 Domnus I 18 Timos 19 Cyrille I   20 Tyrannos 21 Vitalis 22 St. Philogone 23 Paulinos of Tyre 24 Ostatheous 25 Malatius  26 St. Flavin I 27 Porphyros   28 Alexander   29 Theodotos 30 John I 31 Domnus II 32 Maximos II 33 Martoros 34 Peter II the Fuller (Qassar) 35 Bladius 36 Flavin II 37 St. Severius the Great 38 Sargius of Tella    39 Paul II the Black of Alexandria 40 Peter III of Raqqa 41 Julian I 42 Athanasius I Gammolo 43 John II of the Sedre 44 Theodore  45 Severius II bar Masqeh 46 Athanasius II 47 Julian II   48 Elias I  49 Athanasius III 50 Iwanis I 51 George I   52 Joseph   53 Quryaqos of Takrit 54 Dionysius I of Tellmahreh 55 John III 56 Ignatius II 57 Theodosius Romanos of Takrit 58 Dionysius II 59 Jon IV Qurzahli 60 Baselius I 61 John V 62 Iwanis II 63 Dionysius III 64 Abraham I 65 John VI Sarigta 66 Athanasius IV of Salah 67 John VII bar `Abdun 68 Dionysius IV Yahya 69 John VIII 70 Athanasius V 71 John IX bar Shushan 72 Baselius II   73 Dionysius V Lazaros 74 Iwanis III  75 Dionysius VI 76 Athanasius VI bar Khamoro 77 John X bar Mawdyono 78 Athanasius VII bar Qutreh 79 Michael I the Great 80 Athanasius VIII 81 John XI 82 Ignatius III David 83 John XII bar Ma`dani 84 Ignatius IV Yeshu 85 Philoxenos I Nemrud 86 Michael II  87 Michael III Yeshu 88 Baselius III Gabriel 89 Philoxenos II the Writer 90 Baselius IV Shem`un   91 Ignatius Behnam al-Hadli  92 Ignatius Khalaf   93 Ignatius John XIII 94 Ignatius Nuh of Lebanon 95 Ignatius Yeshu I  96 Ignatius Jacob I    97 Ignatius David I  98 Ignatius Abd-Allah I 99 Ignatius Ne`met Allah I 100 Ignatius David II Shah 101 Ignatius Pilate I 102 Ignatius Hadayat Allah  103 Ignatius Simon I  104 Ignatius Yeshu II Qamsheh   105 Ignatius Abdul Masih I 106 Ignatius Gorge II 107 Ignatius Isaac Azar 108 Ignatius Shukr Allah II 109 Ignatius George III 110 Ignatius George IV 111 Ignatius Matthew  112 Ignatius Yunan   113 Ignatius George V  114 Ignatius Elias II 115 Ignatius Jacob II 116 Ignatius Peter IV 117 Ignatius Abdul Masih II  118 Ignatius Abd Allah II  119 Ignatius Elias III 120 Ignatius Afram I Barsoum 121 Ignatius Jacob III 122 Ignatius Zakka I Iwas who is the current Patriarch of Antioch in the Syrian Orthodox Church.

The Throne of St. Mark in the Coptic Orthodox Church;
1 St. Mark the Evangelist 2 St. Anianus 3 St. Melyos (Milius) 4 St. Cedron (Kardonos) 5 Abremius (Primus) 6 St. Yustus  7 St. Eumenius (Omanius)  8 St. Marcianus  9 St. Cladianus (Celadion)  10 St. Agrippinus  11 St. Julian  12 St. Demetrius I the Vinedresser 13 St. Heraclas (Theoclas) 14 Dionysius  15 Maximus  16 St. Theonas 17 St. Peter the Seal of the Martyrs 18 Archelaus 19 St. Alexander I 20 St. Athanasius the Apostolic 21 St. Peter II 22 St. Timothy 23 St. Theophilus  24 St. Kyrillos I (Cyril) the Pillar of The Faith and Lamp of Orthodoxy 25 St. Dioscorus I 26 St. Timothy 27 St. Peter III 28 St. Athanasius II 29 John (Youhanna) I 30 Youannis II 31 St. Dioscorus II 32 St. Timothy III 33 St. Theodosius 34 St. Peter IV 35 St. Damianos 36 St. Anastasius 37 St. Andronicus 38 St. Benjamin 39 St. Agathon 40 John III 41 Isaac 42 St. Simeon I 43 St. Alenandros II 44 Cosmas 45 St. Theodorus (Theodore) 46 St. Khail (Mikhail) 47 Mina 48 St. John IV 49 St. Mark II 50 St. James (Yacobus) 51 St. Simon II 52 St. Yousab (Joseph) 53 St. Michael II 54 St. Cosma II 55 Sinuthius I (Shenouda) 56 St. Khail (Mikhail) 57 St. Gabriel 58 St. Cosmas (Cosma) 59 St. Macarius 60 Theophilus II 61 Mina II 62 St. Abraam (Abraham) 63 Philotheos I 64 St. Zacharias 65 Shenouda II 66 St. Christodolus 67 St. Kyrillos II 68 Mikhail I 69 St. Macarius II 70 Gabriel II (Ibn Turaik) 71 Michael 72 Yoannis V 73 Mark III 74 John VI 75 Kyrellos III (Kyrillos) (Cyril) 76 Athanasius III 77 Gabriel III 78 Youannis VII 79 Theodosius 80 Yoannis VIII  81 Yoannis IX  82 Benjamin II 83 St. Peter V 84 Mark IV 85 Youanis X  86 Gabriel IV 87 Mattheos 88 Gabriel 89 Yoannis XI 90 Mattheos II (Matthias) 91 Gabriel VI 92 Michael VI 93 John XII 94 John XIII 95 St. Gabriel VII 96 St. Yoannis XIV 97 St. Gabriel VIII 98 Mark V 99 Yoannis XV 100 Mattheos  101 Mark VI (Marcus)  102 St. Mattias IV (Mattheos) 103 Yoannis XVI (Yoannis El-Tokhi) 104 Peter VI (Petros) 105 Yoannis XVII 106 Mark VII  107 Yoannis XVIII  108 Marcus VIII  109 Peter VII (Petros) 110 Cyril IV (Kyrillos) 111 Demitrius II 112 St. Kyrillos V (Cyril) 113 Yoannis XIX 114 St. Macarius III 115 Joseph II 116 Kyrillos VI 117 Shenouda III who is the current Pope and Lord Archbishop of the Great City of Alexandria and Patriarch of the See of St. Mark.

I have the list for the Throne of St. Thomas in India as well if you're interested?
{Note for the Orthodox: Please forgive any mistakes in my lists and send me a PM so I can correct them if you are able to provide me with correct information. The purpose of these lists for now is simply to show that the Orthodox Church is connected with the Apostles and hopefully that has been done. EOs feel free to post some lists or send them to me also thanks:)}


I do believe that there is a reason for everything. I questioned why I was brought to this forum and I'm not sure exactly why I was led here. I think that it was God's will for me to see the perspective of the Orthodox Christian and see what they believe in as I didn't know very much about it before I came to this forum. This kind of experience has happened to me with other sects of Christianity as well, such as Roman Catholicism (which Orthodox Christianity seems very similar to, imo). And it has also happened to me with Judaism. I don't know for sure, but I'm thinking that God brought me on this forum also to reach out to the people on this board with the Truth of the Word Of God and I also have had the opportunity to pray for the people of this board.
Thank you very much for praying for sinners like me and please continue to do so. I need all your prayers and those of the saints. How many "sects of Christianity" are you familiar with? I still have The Directory of Sabbath-Observing Groups wherein there are 436, several of which I am familiar with the history and divers teachings of. The RCs are also an Apostolic Church (and thank you to our Catholic friend who has also been providing input into this conversation) so it makes sense that we have some things in common. While on Judaism, how familiar are you with the Feast of Leviticus 23?

Despite at least some people's efforts on this board, I will not ever want to become an Orthodox Christian and join the Orthodox Church. I will always want to be a Christian and live by the Word Of God. And, I pray against deception of the Body Of Christ in Jesus Name. Amen.
How many of us have said that? (I might start a poll on that if I may please.) Tell me please, why do you pray "in Jesus name"? Who taught you to do this? The Church prays "In the Name of the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit". If you haven't already answered this, in what name were you baptised?

Colossians 2:8-15: "Let no one take you captive by means of empty, deceptive philosophy, which is based on human traditions and worldly principles, rather than on Christ."
Top advise! We only observe the Holy Tradition of God and not the vain traditions of men such as bowing to a box in Arabia.

For now my friend, I hope to reply to you more later as we are clearly closer than many others here in certain ways. Please forgive me but I have university tomorrow (which starts late on Mondays thankfully) though it's now almost 3 am here so I ought to be going to sleep.

If God wills I'll reply more to you later but for now here are a few points regarding Christmas to consider:
~~~Begin Christmas section~~~
You mentioned that scientists were against the 25th of December date. Do these scientists also support evolution? Were any of them Christians? How often does science change its mind? (The Church remains unchanged.) Do scientists have anything against Christian history? How often do 'the oppositions of vain science' attack Christianity?

From The Constitutions of the Holy Apostles;
"Brethren, observe... the birthday which you are to celebrate on the twenty-fifth of the ninth month..."
(Book V, ch. XIII [in section III])
Note that April was the first month and, as is well known, this led to April Fools' Day being established. As the year actually started in the last week of March at different times the months were refered to in different ways. Hence Dec-ember (meaning ten) is actually the ninth month (from April).

From St. Clement of Alexandria (Late 2nd Century);
"And there are those who have determined not only the year of our Lord's birth, but also the day; and they say that it took place in the twenty-eighth year of Augustus, and in the twenty-fifth day of Pachon...."
(The Stromata, Book 1, Chapter XXI)

Note that both dates agree upon the twenty-fifth or the eve thereof. (This concurs with the historical view that Christ was born at midnight.)
The former date would be the twentieth of May; however Pachon was the ninth month of the calendar in use in Egypt at that time. (Ideler. Chron., II, 397, n)
{The Ideler quote I received from a RC source so could a RC please find out who exactly this is for me please and where I may obtain this work? Thank you.}

From St. Justin Martyr (110-165);
"Now there is a village in the land of the Jews, thirty-five stadia from Jerusalem, in which Jesus Christ was born, as you can ascertain also from the registers of the taxing made under Cyrenius, your first procurator in Judæa."
(The First Apology of St. Justin Martyr, ch. XXXIV)

Note that St. Justin appeals to the tax records as proof of Christ's birth.

Tertullian, who forsook The Orthodox Faith, (145-220) makes reference to;
"His enrolment in the census of Augustus—that most faithful witness of the Lord's nativity, kept in the archives of Rome"
(Tertullian Against Marcion, Book IV, ch. VII)

As with most official records in the Roman world, the tax/census records were kept in Rome. What do we find after the Christians were able to access these records? Let's see...

From St. John Chrysostom (c. 386);
I have been looking forward to this day for a long time. It is only ten years ago that we became aware of the precise day of this solemnity; but thanks to your zeal, here we are celebrating it with as much excitement as if we had known about it for many a long year. The peoples of the East, from Thrace to Gadesh, have known about it for much longer.
All we have done is to refer in this matter to the testimony of people who possess an exact knowledge of it, and who lived in Rome; it is through the faithful in Rome that this information has been passed down to us.
(I need to find a reference in English though I'm unsure if this work is published in English. Hislop distorts the quote by using part of it but anyone who reads the context can see the saint's joy for becoming aware of "the precise day" of Christ's birth.)

St. Ephraim the Syrian (Syrus), The Lyre {Harp} of the East (c.306-373) wrote in his hymns;
"In March when the lambs bleat in the wilderness, into the Womb the Paschal Lamb entered!" (Hymns on the Nativity, Hymn III)
"...being in the womb nine months for us..." (Hymns on the Nativity, Hymn IV)
"His conception was in Nisan, and His Birth in Conun." (Hymns on the Nativity, Hymn XV, v.6)

Assumably Conun is Syrian as I've never seen it on a Hebrew calendar but we who have observed the Passover know about when Nisan falls, do we not my friend?
~~~End Christmas section~~~

Also, I'll send you a little document via email to consider regarding a doctrine clearly taught in the Holy Bible and yet observed by very few outside of The Orthodox Church. (Sorry if it sent twice by accident.)

Anyway, it's now almost half past three so I ought to go to bed as the cat sure thinks I'm strange being up at this hour too Wink

Νεκτάριος, you make a fine point. Hope our new friend heeds it.

All, there is much more for me to say here but the Lord giveth His beloved sleep (does that mean that my sleeping troubles mean the Lord does not love me?) so for this evening, may peace be with you and pray for me please.

Thank you.
Logged

...because I was not with you when the Lord came aforetime.
...because I am blind and yet I see.
aserb
asinner
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Eastern Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Self Ruled Antiochian Archdiocese
Posts: 1,188


« Reply #60 on: October 07, 2007, 08:07:02 PM »

Boy  I always get a big hoot from these evangelicals who log on to this site and stir up a fuss and argue they make it interesting. Yes Halloween Is Evil I will not be so charitable as I beleive you are only here to argue with us, many of whom have been where you are now and after seeing the contradictions of non-Orthodox or non-Catholic groups or over simplistic rhetoric or down right trickery said " . . .that's enough, I/m outta here . . ." My friend no one was ever argued into the Kingdom of Heaven. You can hang out here for a while and get their kicks* lambasting us and our beliefs, but don't expect any converts.

Been there, done that.

* Excessively crude expression redacted

Αριστοκλής
« Last Edit: October 08, 2007, 03:41:29 AM by Αριστοκλής » Logged

Save us o' Son of God, who art risen from the dead, as we sing to thee Alleluia!
Veniamin
Fire for Effect!
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: OCA Diocese of the South
Posts: 3,372


St. Barbara, patroness of the Field Artillery


« Reply #61 on: October 07, 2007, 08:27:29 PM »

C'mon, aserb, tell us how you really feel. Wink

What happened to your avatar of St. Budimir, btw?  I always rather liked that one...
Logged

Artillery adds dignity to what would otherwise be a vulgar brawl. ~Frederick the Great
ozgeorge
I'll take you for who you are if you take me for everything.
Hoplitarches
*************
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Oecumenical Patriarchate of Constantinople, the New Rome, the Great Church of Christ.
Posts: 16,382


My plans for retirement.


WWW
« Reply #62 on: October 07, 2007, 08:46:09 PM »

over simplistic rhetoric or down right trickery
And that, I think, is the whole problem, and the cause of the tremendous damage Evangelicals do to Christianity. Like I always say, simplistic answers cultivate stupidity, and people see through stupidity eventually. "Because of you, my Name is blasphemed among the Nations."
Logged

If you're living a happy life as a Christian, you're doing something wrong.
aserb
asinner
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Eastern Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Self Ruled Antiochian Archdiocese
Posts: 1,188


« Reply #63 on: October 08, 2007, 12:35:03 PM »

Hey:

Where did yes halloween is evil go?  Typical lone ranger Christian. Blew into town, Shot everyone up with his misguided theology. And split leaving a bunch of wounded people.
Logged

Save us o' Son of God, who art risen from the dead, as we sing to thee Alleluia!
Didymus
Peace and grace.
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Faith: Oriental Orthodox
Jurisdiction: HG Coptic Bishop Anba Daniel of Sydney
Posts: 563


St. Thomas Didymus the Apostle of India


« Reply #64 on: November 04, 2007, 12:23:01 PM »

This is a pity.
Having returned from completing my university assignments for this year I had hoped to see our friend still here and hopefully becoming more Christian.

+ May the Lord guide this poor soul. Amen.
Logged

...because I was not with you when the Lord came aforetime.
...because I am blind and yet I see.
JamesR
Virginal Chicano Blood
Warned
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Eastern Orthodox (but doubtful)
Jurisdiction: Orthodox Church *of* America
Posts: 5,996


St. Augustine of Hippo pray for me!


« Reply #65 on: December 02, 2012, 09:00:40 PM »

If I am born-again through Jesus Christ and I am committed to Him, than I am a member of the Church.

If by "Born-Again" you mean Baptism, then yes, if you are referring to the Jesus Christ that the Apostolic Tradition bears witness to, then yes, you are. But clearly you are not. You are not committed to the real Jesus but to your own idol of what you THINK Jesus is like. The true Jesus is the Jesus we know through the Holy Tradition--which is only found in the Orthodox Church.

Quote
What I'm saying is that I'm not a member of the Orthodox Church.

I can tell.
 
Quote
The Church is the Body Of Christ which consists of everyone that is a born-again Christian who puts their faith in Jesus.

Only if they "put their faith" into the real Jesus, not their own idol of Jesus. The real Jesus is found in the Apostolic Tradition which is only found within the Orthodox Church.

Quote
I'm not talking about the Church as in the Orthodox Church

The Orthodox Church IS the only Church. We only worship one God, therefore there is only one true Church about Him. Likewise, Jesus said that the Church would be his Bride; not His harem.

Quote
...which is a denomination of Christianity.

Hogwash, it's predenominational
Logged

Quote
You're really on to something here. Tattoo to keep you from masturbating, chew to keep you from fornicating... it's a whole new world where you outsource your crosses. You're like a Christian entrepreneur or something.
Quote
James, you have problemz.
Eastern Mind
Hi! I'm Olaf and I like warm hugs!
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Hopeful
Jurisdiction: Greece
Posts: 713



« Reply #66 on: December 02, 2012, 09:19:28 PM »

Oh wow, this is an old thread lol
Logged

"ALL THE GODS OF THE HINDUS ARE DEMONS HAHAHAHAHA!!"
Justin Kissel
Formerly Asteriktos
Protospatharios
****************
Offline Offline

Posts: 30,503


« Reply #67 on: December 03, 2012, 12:53:33 AM »


That guy made 19 posts in one day 5 years ago and then never came back! But you show him what's what!  Grin
« Last Edit: December 03, 2012, 12:54:13 AM by Asteriktos » Logged

Large Marge sent me...
PeterTheAleut
The Right Blowhard Peter the Furtive of Yetts O'Muckhart
Moderator
Protospatharios
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: OCA
Posts: 33,153


Lord, have mercy on the Christians in Mosul!


« Reply #68 on: December 03, 2012, 10:14:55 AM »

Same month, different year.  Strike that. Not even the same month.
« Last Edit: December 03, 2012, 10:15:33 AM by PeterTheAleut » Logged
Tags: Bible sola scriptura 
Pages: « 1 2  All   Go Up
  Print  
 
Jump to:  

Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP Powered by SMF 1.1.18 | SMF © 2013, Simple Machines Valid XHTML 1.0! Valid CSS!
Page created in 0.116 seconds with 53 queries.