PeterTheAleut, thanks for that note however I typed it before this new thread was created. Please forgive any confusion.
Given that we have an EO-OO board and an Orthodox-Catholic board, it would seem to make sense to have one for Protestants as well
Fine idea!
I believe that everyone who has been baptized in the name of the Trinity is a Christian. I just think that Protestants are "catechumens" still.
That's an interesting view about Protestants. May I please point out though that
not all Protestants dunk in the name of the Holy Trinity.
Considering that this person appears to have links with Armstrong's movement there is a chance that the dunking was only in the name of Jesus (or perhaps even Yeshua or some other variant as the so-called Sacred Name movements have many alternatives).
~~~
Following this point in my post I'm not going to reply to everything just yet as some issues have already been spoken through and other people are providing helpful discussion (thank you very much
) aside from the fact that it's almost 2 am here (as I begin this post)!
A few things ought to be raised though so I'll mention them.
None of the writings in the Bible contradict one another,
Just the other day in another Forum I asked a person to shorten his list of 23 "contradictions" in the Holy Bible to seven as it would waste my time to reply to some which had such obvious explanations. (This person is yet to post a list despite replying to other parts of my post.) I had said to him that if he understood the Holy Bible as the Orthodox Church which wrote the Holy Bible does then he would not have trouble understanding these apparent contradictions which he thought he had found. Here are a few which we Orthodox can resolve and I'm just wondering how you might do so please:
God is all powerful Jer 32:27/ Matt 19:26
God is not all powerful Judg 1:19
God gives freely to those who ask James 1:5/ Luke 11:10
God withholds his blessings and prevents men from receiving them John 12:40/ Josh 11:20/ Is 63:17
God is to be found by those who seek him Matt 7:8/ Prov 8:17
God is not to be found by those who seek him Prov 1:28
God is warlike Ex 15:3/ Is 51:15
God is peaceful Rom 15:33/ 1 Cor 14:33
God accepts human sacrifices 2 Sam 21:8,9,14/ Gen 22:2/ Judg 11:30-32,34,38,39
God forbids human sacrifice Deut 12:30,31
God cannot lie Heb 6:18
God lies by proxy; he sends forth lying spirits to deceive 2 Thes 2:11/ 1 Kings 22:23/ Ezek 14:9
Please be aware that I do not believe the Holy Bible contradicts itself but am merely wondering whether you could answer a person who presented you with such verses.
The Church does so quite easily and quickly frequently.
the Orthodox churches might have originated with the Apostles.
If you doubt that here are some lists for you to examine:
The Throne of St. Peter in the Syrian Orthodox Church;
1 St. Peter the Apostle 2 St. Evodius 3 St. Ignatios I Nurono (the Illuminator) 4 St. Heron 5 St. Korneilos 6 St. Heros 7 St. Theophilos 8 St. Maximos I 9 St. Seraphion 10 St. Ascelpiadis the Confessor 11 Philitus 12 Zbina 13 St. Babulas the Martyr 14 Fabius 15 S. Demetrianos 16 Paul I of Samosate 17 Domnus I 18 Timos 19 Cyrille I 20 Tyrannos 21 Vitalis 22 St. Philogone 23 Paulinos of Tyre 24 Ostatheous 25 Malatius 26 St. Flavin I 27 Porphyros 28 Alexander 29 Theodotos 30 John I 31 Domnus II 32 Maximos II 33 Martoros 34 Peter II the Fuller (Qassar) 35 Bladius 36 Flavin II 37 St. Severius the Great 38 Sargius of Tella 39 Paul II the Black of Alexandria 40 Peter III of Raqqa 41 Julian I 42 Athanasius I Gammolo 43 John II of the Sedre 44 Theodore 45 Severius II bar Masqeh 46 Athanasius II 47 Julian II 48 Elias I 49 Athanasius III 50 Iwanis I 51 George I 52 Joseph 53 Quryaqos of Takrit 54 Dionysius I of Tellmahreh 55 John III 56 Ignatius II 57 Theodosius Romanos of Takrit 58 Dionysius II 59 Jon IV Qurzahli 60 Baselius I 61 John V 62 Iwanis II 63 Dionysius III 64 Abraham I 65 John VI Sarigta 66 Athanasius IV of Salah 67 John VII bar `Abdun 68 Dionysius IV Yahya 69 John VIII 70 Athanasius V 71 John IX bar Shushan 72 Baselius II 73 Dionysius V Lazaros 74 Iwanis III 75 Dionysius VI 76 Athanasius VI bar Khamoro 77 John X bar Mawdyono 78 Athanasius VII bar Qutreh 79 Michael I the Great 80 Athanasius VIII 81 John XI 82 Ignatius III David 83 John XII bar Ma`dani 84 Ignatius IV Yeshu 85 Philoxenos I Nemrud 86 Michael II 87 Michael III Yeshu 88 Baselius III Gabriel 89 Philoxenos II the Writer 90 Baselius IV Shem`un 91 Ignatius Behnam al-Hadli 92 Ignatius Khalaf 93 Ignatius John XIII 94 Ignatius Nuh of Lebanon 95 Ignatius Yeshu I 96 Ignatius Jacob I 97 Ignatius David I 98 Ignatius Abd-Allah I 99 Ignatius Ne`met Allah I 100 Ignatius David II Shah 101 Ignatius Pilate I 102 Ignatius Hadayat Allah 103 Ignatius Simon I 104 Ignatius Yeshu II Qamsheh 105 Ignatius Abdul Masih I 106 Ignatius Gorge II 107 Ignatius Isaac Azar 108 Ignatius Shukr Allah II 109 Ignatius George III 110 Ignatius George IV 111 Ignatius Matthew 112 Ignatius Yunan 113 Ignatius George V 114 Ignatius Elias II 115 Ignatius Jacob II 116 Ignatius Peter IV 117 Ignatius Abdul Masih II 118 Ignatius Abd Allah II 119 Ignatius Elias III 120 Ignatius Afram I Barsoum 121 Ignatius Jacob III 122 Ignatius Zakka I Iwas who is the current Patriarch of Antioch in the Syrian Orthodox Church.
The Throne of St. Mark in the Coptic Orthodox Church;
1 St. Mark the Evangelist 2 St. Anianus 3 St. Melyos (Milius) 4 St. Cedron (Kardonos) 5 Abremius (Primus) 6 St. Yustus 7 St. Eumenius (Omanius) 8 St. Marcianus 9 St. Cladianus (Celadion) 10 St. Agrippinus 11 St. Julian 12 St. Demetrius I the Vinedresser 13 St. Heraclas (Theoclas) 14 Dionysius 15 Maximus 16 St. Theonas 17 St. Peter the Seal of the Martyrs 18 Archelaus 19 St. Alexander I 20 St. Athanasius the Apostolic 21 St. Peter II 22 St. Timothy 23 St. Theophilus 24 St. Kyrillos I (Cyril) the Pillar of The Faith and Lamp of Orthodoxy 25 St. Dioscorus I 26 St. Timothy 27 St. Peter III 28 St. Athanasius II 29 John (Youhanna) I 30 Youannis II 31 St. Dioscorus II 32 St. Timothy III 33 St. Theodosius 34 St. Peter IV 35 St. Damianos 36 St. Anastasius 37 St. Andronicus 38 St. Benjamin 39 St. Agathon 40 John III 41 Isaac 42 St. Simeon I 43 St. Alenandros II 44 Cosmas 45 St. Theodorus (Theodore) 46 St. Khail (Mikhail) 47 Mina 48 St. John IV 49 St. Mark II 50 St. James (Yacobus) 51 St. Simon II 52 St. Yousab (Joseph) 53 St. Michael II 54 St. Cosma II 55 Sinuthius I (Shenouda) 56 St. Khail (Mikhail) 57 St. Gabriel 58 St. Cosmas (Cosma) 59 St. Macarius 60 Theophilus II 61 Mina II 62 St. Abraam (Abraham) 63 Philotheos I 64 St. Zacharias 65 Shenouda II 66 St. Christodolus 67 St. Kyrillos II 68 Mikhail I 69 St. Macarius II 70 Gabriel II (Ibn Turaik) 71 Michael 72 Yoannis V 73 Mark III 74 John VI 75 Kyrellos III (Kyrillos) (Cyril) 76 Athanasius III 77 Gabriel III 78 Youannis VII 79 Theodosius 80 Yoannis VIII 81 Yoannis IX 82 Benjamin II 83 St. Peter V 84 Mark IV 85 Youanis X 86 Gabriel IV 87 Mattheos 88 Gabriel 89 Yoannis XI 90 Mattheos II (Matthias) 91 Gabriel VI 92 Michael VI 93 John XII 94 John XIII 95 St. Gabriel VII 96 St. Yoannis XIV 97 St. Gabriel VIII 98 Mark V 99 Yoannis XV 100 Mattheos 101 Mark VI (Marcus) 102 St. Mattias IV (Mattheos) 103 Yoannis XVI (Yoannis El-Tokhi) 104 Peter VI (Petros) 105 Yoannis XVII 106 Mark VII 107 Yoannis XVIII 108 Marcus VIII 109 Peter VII (Petros) 110 Cyril IV (Kyrillos) 111 Demitrius II 112 St. Kyrillos V (Cyril) 113 Yoannis XIX 114 St. Macarius III 115 Joseph II 116 Kyrillos VI 117 Shenouda III who is the current Pope and Lord Archbishop of the Great City of Alexandria and Patriarch of the See of St. Mark.
I have the list for the Throne of St. Thomas in India as well if you're interested?
{Note for the Orthodox: Please forgive any mistakes in my lists and send me a PM so I can correct them if you are able to provide me with correct information. The purpose of these lists for now is simply to show that the Orthodox Church is connected with the Apostles and hopefully that has been done. EOs feel free to post some lists or send them to me also thanks:)}
I do believe that there is a reason for everything. I questioned why I was brought to this forum and I'm not sure exactly why I was led here. I think that it was God's will for me to see the perspective of the Orthodox Christian and see what they believe in as I didn't know very much about it before I came to this forum. This kind of experience has happened to me with other sects of Christianity as well, such as Roman Catholicism (which Orthodox Christianity seems very similar to, imo). And it has also happened to me with Judaism. I don't know for sure, but I'm thinking that God brought me on this forum also to reach out to the people on this board with the Truth of the Word Of God and I also have had the opportunity to pray for the people of this board.
Thank you very much for praying for sinners like me and please continue to do so. I need all your prayers and those of the saints. How many "sects of Christianity" are you familiar with? I still have
The Directory of Sabbath-Observing Groups wherein there are 436, several of which I am familiar with the history and divers teachings of. The RCs are also an Apostolic Church (and thank you to our Catholic friend who has also been providing input into this conversation) so it makes sense that we have some things in common. While on Judaism, how familiar are you with the Feast of Leviticus 23?
Despite at least some people's efforts on this board, I will not ever want to become an Orthodox Christian and join the Orthodox Church. I will always want to be a Christian and live by the Word Of God. And, I pray against deception of the Body Of Christ in Jesus Name. Amen.
How many of us have said that? (I might start a poll on that if I may please.) Tell me please, why do you pray "in Jesus name"? Who taught you to do this? The Church prays "In the Name of the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit". If you haven't already answered this, in what name were you baptised?
Colossians 2:8-15: "Let no one take you captive by means of empty, deceptive philosophy, which is based on human traditions and worldly principles, rather than on Christ."
Top advise! We only observe the Holy Tradition of God and not the vain traditions of men such as bowing to a box in Arabia.
For now my friend, I hope to reply to you more later as we are clearly closer than many others here in certain ways. Please forgive me but I have university tomorrow (which starts late on Mondays thankfully) though it's now almost 3 am here so I ought to be going to sleep.
If God wills I'll reply more to you later but for now here are a few points regarding Christmas to consider:
~~~Begin Christmas section~~~
You mentioned that scientists were against the 25th of December date. Do these scientists also support evolution? Were any of them Christians? How often does science change its mind? (The Church remains unchanged.) Do scientists have anything against Christian history? How often do 'the oppositions of vain science' attack Christianity?
From The Constitutions of the Holy Apostles;
"Brethren, observe... the birthday which you are to celebrate on the twenty-fifth of the ninth month..."
(Book V, ch. XIII [in section III])
Note that April was the first month and, as is well known, this led to April Fools' Day being established. As the year actually started in the last week of March at different times the months were refered to in different ways. Hence Dec-ember (meaning ten) is actually the ninth month (from April).
From St. Clement of Alexandria (Late 2nd Century);
"And there are those who have determined not only the year of our Lord's birth, but also the day; and they say that it took place in the twenty-eighth year of Augustus, and in the twenty-fifth day of Pachon...."
(The Stromata, Book 1, Chapter XXI)
Note that both dates agree upon the twenty-fifth or the eve thereof. (This concurs with the historical view that Christ was born at midnight.)
The former date would be the twentieth of May; however Pachon was the ninth month of the calendar in use in Egypt at that time. (Ideler. Chron., II, 397, n)
{The Ideler quote I received from a RC source so could a RC please find out who exactly this is for me please and where I may obtain this work? Thank you.}
From St. Justin Martyr (110-165);
"Now there is a village in the land of the Jews, thirty-five stadia from Jerusalem, in which Jesus Christ was born, as you can ascertain also from the registers of the taxing made under Cyrenius, your first procurator in Judæa."
(The First Apology of St. Justin Martyr, ch. XXXIV)
Note that St. Justin appeals to the tax records as proof of Christ's birth.
Tertullian, who forsook The Orthodox Faith, (145-220) makes reference to;
"His enrolment in the census of Augustus—that most faithful witness of the Lord's nativity, kept in the archives of Rome"
(Tertullian Against Marcion, Book IV, ch. VII)
As with most official records in the Roman world, the tax/census records were kept in Rome. What do we find after the Christians were able to access these records? Let's see...
From St. John Chrysostom (c. 386);
I have been looking forward to this day for a long time. It is only ten years ago that we became aware of the precise day of this solemnity; but thanks to your zeal, here we are celebrating it with as much excitement as if we had known about it for many a long year. The peoples of the East, from Thrace to Gadesh, have known about it for much longer.
All we have done is to refer in this matter to the testimony of people who possess an exact knowledge of it, and who lived in Rome; it is through the faithful in Rome that this information has been passed down to us.
(I need to find a reference in English though I'm unsure if this work is published in English. Hislop distorts the quote by using part of it but anyone who reads the context can see the saint's joy for becoming aware of "the precise day" of Christ's birth.)
St. Ephraim the Syrian (Syrus), The Lyre {Harp} of the East (c.306-373) wrote in his hymns;
"In March when the lambs bleat in the wilderness, into the Womb the Paschal Lamb entered!" (Hymns on the Nativity, Hymn III)
"...being in the womb nine months for us..." (Hymns on the Nativity, Hymn IV)
"His conception was in Nisan, and His Birth in Conun." (Hymns on the Nativity, Hymn XV, v.6)
Assumably Conun is Syrian as I've never seen it on a Hebrew calendar but we who have observed the Passover know about when Nisan falls, do we not my friend?
~~~End Christmas section~~~
Also, I'll send you a little document via email to consider regarding a doctrine clearly taught in the Holy Bible and yet observed by very few outside of The Orthodox Church. (Sorry if it sent twice by accident.)
Anyway, it's now almost half past three so I ought to go to bed as the cat sure thinks I'm strange being up at this hour too
Νεκτάριος, you make a fine point. Hope our new friend heeds it.
All, there is much more for me to say here but the Lord giveth His beloved sleep (does that mean that my sleeping troubles mean the Lord does not love me?) so for this evening, may peace be with you and pray for me please.
Thank you.
