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Question: Is it OK for Orthodox Christians to celebrate Halloween?
Yes - 78 (40.6%)
No - 78 (40.6%)
Maybe - 15 (7.8%)
Unsure - 14 (7.3%)
Other (Explain) - 7 (3.6%)
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Author Topic: Is it OK for Orthodox Christians to celebrate Halloween?  (Read 100884 times) Average Rating: 0
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« Reply #585 on: October 28, 2011, 07:27:11 PM »

We don't do Halloween, more because of my wife than myself. I do back her up in this I'm just not as adamant about it as she is. I understand the nastiness of the Celtic orgins and the glorification of evil that has been promoted recently but, I also remember the more innocent fun I had as a kid. We won't give out candy that night, I wouldn't impose this view on anyone who disagreed though.

As to horror movies, don't do that, not at all, don't see anything good in them.

I'm just going to pretend I didn't see this.  Roll Eyes I'll be much happier in the long run!

Hell, no I'm not.  Angry

Strange how the nasty Celts managed to bring these traditions into Christianity with them and the holiday was even recognised by the Church and made official with the all the tidbits that go along with it.

This sounds like the kind of argument you get against Christmas trees; because pagans displayed the heads of their enemies on trees.

<sigh>

Okay, I love learning, and I'm willing (genuinely) to stand corrected if need be. Educate me. What am I misunderstanding a bout the practices of my Celtic ancestors?

Not being psychic, I don't know exactly what you are misunderstanding. Wink I don't know what you think are the nasty Celtic practices behind Samhain. Love to chat about this, actually, because I'm fascinated by the little we know about preChristian Celts. But my point is that the preChristian aspects of Samhain were carried into the lives of Christian Celts and are present in Halloween celebrations, without being perceived as nasty, evil, or spiritually damaging by those early Christians. Halloween being a Christian redesignation of the holy day of Samhain seems no different to me than the Christian redesignation of the the winter solstice, the natalis invicti, the feast of the invicible sun, on the 25th December, to the Birth of Christ.

Personally, I think that you guys in America have the opportunity to return this holiday to Christendom, to take advantage of its Christian heritage. So stop being such wimps and bring it on back to us, instead of shunning it like it's something of the devil!  angel laugh  



And such was so with the pre-Christian culture of the Slavs, the Hellenes, the Norse, the Saxons, the Burgundians and so on and so on - each had many aspects of pagan tradition incorporated into and made a part of Christian tradition. Leave it to the 16th and 17th century Anglos who concocted the Puritan mentality to 'purge' things. If I recall correctly, during the reign of the great Lord Protector Cromwell, England banned the celebration of Christmas.  Bah, humbug!
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« Reply #586 on: October 28, 2011, 07:32:55 PM »

We don't do Halloween, more because of my wife than myself. I do back her up in this I'm just not as adamant about it as she is. I understand the nastiness of the Celtic orgins and the glorification of evil that has been promoted recently but, I also remember the more innocent fun I had as a kid. We won't give out candy that night, I wouldn't impose this view on anyone who disagreed though.

As to horror movies, don't do that, not at all, don't see anything good in them.

I'm just going to pretend I didn't see this.  Roll Eyes I'll be much happier in the long run!

Hell, no I'm not.  Angry

Strange how the nasty Celts managed to bring these traditions into Christianity with them and the holiday was even recognised by the Church and made official with the all the tidbits that go along with it.

This sounds like the kind of argument you get against Christmas trees; because pagans displayed the heads of their enemies on trees.

<sigh>

Okay, I love learning, and I'm willing (genuinely) to stand corrected if need be. Educate me. What am I misunderstanding a bout the practices of my Celtic ancestors?

Not being psychic, I don't know exactly what you are misunderstanding. Wink I don't know what you think are the nasty Celtic practices behind Samhain. Love to chat about this, actually, because I'm fascinated by the little we know about preChristian Celts. But my point is that the preChristian aspects of Samhain were carried into the lives of Christian Celts and are present in Halloween celebrations, without being perceived as nasty, evil, or spiritually damaging by those early Christians. Halloween being a Christian redesignation of the holy day of Samhain seems no different to me than the Christian redesignation of the the winter solstice, the natalis invicti, the feast of the invicible sun, on the 25th December, to the Birth of Christ.

Personally, I think that you guys in America have the opportunity to return this holiday to Christendom, to take advantage of its Christian heritage. So stop being such wimps and bring it on back to us, instead of shunning it like it's something of the devil!  angel laugh  



And such was so with the pre-Christian culture of the Slavs, the Hellenes, the Norse, the Saxons, the Burgundians and so on and so on - each had many aspects of pagan tradition incorporated into and made a part of Christian tradition. Leave it to the 16th and 17th century Anglos who concocted the Puritan mentality to 'purge' things. If I recall correctly, during the reign of the great Lord Protector Cromwell, England banned the celebration of Christmas.  Bah, humbug!

Indeed!! But this puritanical stuff came from Europe with the import of Calvinism. The likes of Cromwell merely jumped on the bandwagon to use it to bend people to his fundamentalist will, and I'm afraid this mindset found fertile soil in the USA.

Join the revolution! Bring back our cultural festivals. Make a stand against puritanical bs!!!  (I'm all excited, now! ) laugh
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« Reply #587 on: October 28, 2011, 07:40:49 PM »

Indeed!! But this puritanical stuff came from Europe with the import of Calvinism. The likes of Cromwell merely jumped on the bandwagon to use it to bend people to his fundamentalist will, and I'm afraid this mindset found fertile soil in the USA.

Join the revolution! Bring back our cultural festivals. Make a stand against puritanical bs!!!  (I'm all excited, now! ) laugh

Good for you. Glad to see you have some chutzpah!
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« Reply #588 on: October 28, 2011, 07:43:40 PM »

An additional thought to what I said before.

Wiccans and alternative, reconstruction groups are using this Christian festivital and claiming it as their own, but with warped and disingenuous religious meaning. We have lost a voice in what was once ours, because we wimped out and let it happen. Because of puritanical fear. Can you imagine what the early Christians had to face in their day to day life? No sanitising for them. They lived with the bloody rites of Mithras going on next door and made it useful for the Gospel. What was obscene was finally dropped, what was harmless was continued with its new meanings.

So many of us hide in our houses refusing to join with our neighbours in this harmless activity, and let the opportunity to spread the love of Christ pass us by.  Instead, we stand on our laurels and distance ourselves more and more from the very people who need us.

OK - soap box put away.  Embarrassed
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« Reply #589 on: October 28, 2011, 07:44:46 PM »

Indeed!! But this puritanical stuff came from Europe with the import of Calvinism. The likes of Cromwell merely jumped on the bandwagon to use it to bend people to his fundamentalist will, and I'm afraid this mindset found fertile soil in the USA.

Join the revolution! Bring back our cultural festivals. Make a stand against puritanical bs!!!  (I'm all excited, now! ) laugh

Good for you. Glad to see you have some chutzpah!

 laugh I have lots of that! Ask my hubby!  laugh
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« Reply #590 on: October 28, 2011, 08:59:21 PM »

An additional thought to what I said before.

Wiccans and alternative, reconstruction groups are using this Christian festivital and claiming it as their own, but with warped and disingenuous religious meaning. We have lost a voice in what was once ours, because we wimped out and let it happen. Because of puritanical fear. Can you imagine what the early Christians had to face in their day to day life? No sanitising for them. They lived with the bloody rites of Mithras going on next door and made it useful for the Gospel. What was obscene was finally dropped, what was harmless was continued with its new meanings.

So many of us hide in our houses refusing to join with our neighbours in this harmless activity, and let the opportunity to spread the love of Christ pass us by.  Instead, we stand on our laurels and distance ourselves more and more from the very people who need us.

OK - soap box put away.  Embarrassed

Don't frown. I like the fire in the belly. And good for you about Mithras. I love reality and especially Christians who ain't afraid of it.

The reactions I've seen Christians have when learning of such stuff like Mithras is oft embarrassing.

This is emboldening!

Erase that frown I might nominate a post for PotM that is not mine for once. //:=)

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« Reply #591 on: October 28, 2011, 09:02:54 PM »

An additional thought to what I said before.

Wiccans and alternative, reconstruction groups are using this Christian festivital and claiming it as their own, but with warped and disingenuous religious meaning. We have lost a voice in what was once ours, because we wimped out and let it happen. Because of puritanical fear. Can you imagine what the early Christians had to face in their day to day life? No sanitising for them. They lived with the bloody rites of Mithras going on next door and made it useful for the Gospel. What was obscene was finally dropped, what was harmless was continued with its new meanings.

So many of us hide in our houses refusing to join with our neighbours in this harmless activity, and let the opportunity to spread the love of Christ pass us by.  Instead, we stand on our laurels and distance ourselves more and more from the very people who need us.

OK - soap box put away.  Embarrassed

Don't frown. I like the fire in the belly. And good for you about Mithras. I love reality and especially Christians who ain't afraid of it.

The reactions I've seen Christians have when learning of such stuff like Mithras is oft embarrassing.

This is emboldening!

Erase that frown I might nominate a post for PotM that is not mine for once. //:=)



 laugh Thanks, orthnorm. Too late to erase the frown. Your comments are appreciated, anyway. (Oh, just realised, it's an embarrassed face!)
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« Reply #592 on: October 29, 2011, 12:45:11 AM »

We don't do Halloween, more because of my wife than myself. I do back her up in this I'm just not as adamant about it as she is. I understand the nastiness of the Celtic orgins and the glorification of evil that has been promoted recently but, I also remember the more innocent fun I had as a kid. We won't give out candy that night, I wouldn't impose this view on anyone who disagreed though.

As to horror movies, don't do that, not at all, don't see anything good in them.

I'm just going to pretend I didn't see this.  Roll Eyes I'll be much happier in the long run!

Hell, no I'm not.  Angry

Strange how the nasty Celts managed to bring these traditions into Christianity with them and the holiday was even recognised by the Church and made official with the all the tidbits that go along with it.

This sounds like the kind of argument you get against Christmas trees; because pagans displayed the heads of their enemies on trees.

<sigh>

Okay, I love learning, and I'm willing (genuinely) to stand corrected if need be. Educate me. What am I misunderstanding a bout the practices of my Celtic ancestors?

Not being psychic, I don't know exactly what you are misunderstanding. Wink I don't know what you think are the nasty Celtic practices behind Samhain. Love to chat about this, actually, because I'm fascinated by the little we know about preChristian Celts. But my point is that the preChristian aspects of Samhain were carried into the lives of Christian Celts and are present in Halloween celebrations, without being perceived as nasty, evil, or spiritually damaging by those early Christians. Halloween being a Christian redesignation of the holy day of Samhain seems no different to me than the Christian redesignation of the the winter solstice, the natalis invicti, the feast of the invicible sun, on the 25th December, to the Birth of Christ.

Personally, I think that you guys in America have the opportunity to return this holiday to Christendom, to take advantage of its Christian heritage. So stop being such wimps and bring it on back to us, instead of shunning it like it's something of the devil!  angel laugh  


Ah, now this seems more like a discussion. As to my misunderstandings I don't know that I have any regarding the topic, but I'm open to the potentiality. Grin

Regarding nasty practices I'm referring to practices such as divinations and interaction with the dead, which is an entirely different thing to me in Orthodoxy than it is in the ancient pre-Christian Celtic religions. It is believed by many that the Celtic religion included such things as head hunting and human sacrifice. I know, not all the experts agree on this, but for my part given what I've read of ancient accounts and modern archeology, and the idea that many early cultures had such practices I believe it to be more likely these things were done than that they weren't. So that then is the context in to which I put Celtic practices that gave birth to the modern holiday of Halloween. Mind I'm not saying that Samhain itself was a celebration that included these practices just that to me they're part of the overarching context.

About pagan practices carried over into Christianity my initial reaction is that I'm not sure that was good in either situation. But I had always attributed that to the Western Church and my Protestant background, not Calvinist was still always at least, suspicious of Rome. I'm new enough to the Eastern Church that this may change. I'm still working on major doctrinal mind shifts at this point and haven't had time to get into things like, should my outlook on holidays change. Of course that could be part of what being on this thread is about. laugh

So do we have an opportunity to return this holiday to Christendom? You know, I really don't feel strongly one way or the other and could be persuaded to go the direction you suggest if my wife didn't feel as strongly about it as she does. For example the Orthodox Church we were at last Sunday had a Fall Festival with Pumpkin carving and apple bobbing for the kids, which I thought was kinda cool and would likely be the sort of thing you're talking about. Yeah, running from the world around us isn't good, and I could tell as a few interesting stories about things I've done as a biker with Christian colors, but again some things we feel strongly about and have the time and energy to feel strongly about and some things we don't. Smiley
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« Reply #593 on: October 29, 2011, 01:26:26 AM »

For example the Orthodox Church we were at last Sunday had a Fall Festival with Pumpkin carving and apple bobbing for the kids, which I thought was kinda cool and would likely be the sort of thing you're talking about.

Apple bobbing was originally a form of divination. Seriously. Just an interesting side note.
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« Reply #594 on: October 29, 2011, 02:33:18 AM »

For example the Orthodox Church we were at last Sunday had a Fall Festival with Pumpkin carving and apple bobbing for the kids, which I thought was kinda cool and would likely be the sort of thing you're talking about.

Apple bobbing was originally a form of divination. Seriously. Just an interesting side note.

Yes, that's correct.
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« Reply #595 on: October 29, 2011, 03:10:36 AM »

We don't do Halloween, more because of my wife than myself. I do back her up in this I'm just not as adamant about it as she is. I understand the nastiness of the Celtic orgins and the glorification of evil that has been promoted recently but, I also remember the more innocent fun I had as a kid. We won't give out candy that night, I wouldn't impose this view on anyone who disagreed though.

As to horror movies, don't do that, not at all, don't see anything good in them.

I'm just going to pretend I didn't see this.  Roll Eyes I'll be much happier in the long run!

Hell, no I'm not.  Angry

Strange how the nasty Celts managed to bring these traditions into Christianity with them and the holiday was even recognised by the Church and made official with the all the tidbits that go along with it.

This sounds like the kind of argument you get against Christmas trees; because pagans displayed the heads of their enemies on trees.

<sigh>

Okay, I love learning, and I'm willing (genuinely) to stand corrected if need be. Educate me. What am I misunderstanding a bout the practices of my Celtic ancestors?

Not being psychic, I don't know exactly what you are misunderstanding. Wink I don't know what you think are the nasty Celtic practices behind Samhain. Love to chat about this, actually, because I'm fascinated by the little we know about preChristian Celts. But my point is that the preChristian aspects of Samhain were carried into the lives of Christian Celts and are present in Halloween celebrations, without being perceived as nasty, evil, or spiritually damaging by those early Christians. Halloween being a Christian redesignation of the holy day of Samhain seems no different to me than the Christian redesignation of the the winter solstice, the natalis invicti, the feast of the invicible sun, on the 25th December, to the Birth of Christ.

Personally, I think that you guys in America have the opportunity to return this holiday to Christendom, to take advantage of its Christian heritage. So stop being such wimps and bring it on back to us, instead of shunning it like it's something of the devil!  angel laugh  


Ah, now this seems more like a discussion. As to my misunderstandings I don't know that I have any regarding the topic, but I'm open to the potentiality. Grin

Regarding nasty practices I'm referring to practices such as divinations and interaction with the dead, which is an entirely different thing to me in Orthodoxy than it is in the ancient pre-Christian Celtic religions. It is believed by many that the Celtic religion included such things as head hunting and human sacrifice. I know, not all the experts agree on this, but for my part given what I've read of ancient accounts and modern archeology, and the idea that many early cultures had such practices I believe it to be more likely these things were done than that they weren't. So that then is the context in to which I put Celtic practices that gave birth to the modern holiday of Halloween. Mind I'm not saying that Samhain itself was a celebration that included these practices just that to me they're part of the overarching context.

Sure, no one who had celebrated Halloween ever wanted to have contact with the dead. Remember Halloween is the cleaned up version of the ancient holy day. It is a time of remembering the dead; praying for them. The pre-Christian aspects of opening one's hope for the dead, putting out food and drink for them is dropped in favour of "party time" with the living. (Though, the Celts did that, too!)

Head hunting and human sacrifice was common from what I have read, too. The Celts considered it a great honour to take the head of their dead opponent; honouring the dead opponent, I mean. Nasty things happen in war to this day. The pre-Christian Sarmations took scalps! Human beings are odd critters. But with regard to human sacrifice, I doubt that at the time there were any more proficient than the Romans at human sacrifice, whose games were in honour of the gods and thousands died in a sitting. Of course, they might have called it something else, but it was still human sacrifice.

The Romans practised various forms of human sacrifice; from Etruscans (or, according to other sources, Sabellians), they adopted the original form of gladiatorial combat where the victim was slain in a ritual battle. During the early republic, criminals who had broken their oaths or defrauded others were sometimes "given to the gods" (that is, executed as a human sacrifice). The Rex Nemorensis was an escaped slave who became priest of the goddess Diana at Nemi by killing his predecessor. Prisoners of war were buried alive as offerings to Manes and Di Inferi (gods of the underworld). Archaeologists have found sacrificial victims buried in building foundations. Ordinarily, deceased Romans were cremated rather than buried. Captured enemy leaders, after the victorious general's triumph, would be ritually strangled in front of a statue of Mars, the war god. Dionysius of Halicarnassus[27] refers to a sacrifice of Argei in the Vestal ritual that might have originally included sacrifice of old men. According to Pliny the Elder, human sacrifice was formally banned during the consulship of Publius Licinius Crassus and Gnaeus Cornelius Lentulus in 97 BCE, although by this time it was so rare that the decree was largely symbolic.[28] Most of the rituals turned to animal sacrifice like taurobolium or became merely symbolic. A Roman general might bury a statue of his likeness to thank the gods for victory. However, activities with a ritual origin and similarities to human sacrifice, such as the gladiatorial games and some forms of execution, continued for many years, and grew in popularity. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_sacrifice

Once the Celts became Christian, of course the ghastly things were curtailed, their more innocuous traditions added where the symbolism fitted. The Church saw no problem in adding them to the pile. It's the same with any culture touched by Christianity.

Quote
About pagan practices carried over into Christianity my initial reaction is that I'm not sure that was good in either situation. But I had always attributed that to the Western Church and my Protestant background, not Calvinist was still always at least, suspicious of Rome. I'm new enough to the Eastern Church that this may change. I'm still working on major doctrinal mind shifts at this point and haven't had time to get into things like, should my outlook on holidays change. Of course that could be part of what being on this thread is about. laugh

But remember they are no longer pagan practices, once they become identified with Christ. We have been always able to accept traditions without them being explicitly Christian; it's part of our history. Symbolism was very strong in the ancient world. It didn't stop with one becoming Christian. If one saw eternal life in the everlasting green decorations of Saturnalia, or the circle of Celtic Druidism it was included for its reference to a belief in Christ. There's a story of St Patrick drawing a cross through the Celtic circle and making the first Celtic Cross. Supposedly, the Druids he was speaking to converted on the spot. Not sure how true that is, but it does seem to be quite a strong legend, so one is given to wonder.

Quote
So do we have an opportunity to return this holiday to Christendom? You know, I really don't feel strongly one way or the other and could be persuaded to go the direction you suggest if my wife didn't feel as strongly about it as she does. For example the Orthodox Church we were at last Sunday had a Fall Festival with Pumpkin carving and apple bobbing for the kids, which I thought was kinda cool and would likely be the sort of thing you're talking about. Yeah, running from the world around us isn't good, and I could tell as a few interesting stories about things I've done as a biker with Christian colors, but again some things we feel strongly about and have the time and energy to feel strongly about and some things we don't. Smiley

I don't expect there to be a great revival. Smiley But I do see it as an opportunity, to at least not look like the grumpy people on the block, to be in touch with our neighbour in the spirit of love.
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« Reply #596 on: October 29, 2011, 03:23:14 AM »

To be fair, Cromwell and his ilk banned Christmas and other holidays because they became festivals of drunkenness and perceived debauchery. 
The evil eye stuff and divination games are all fun and nifty too, but my priest, who I can assure you is not influenced by Calvin or any Western European puritanical thought, strongly believes  they don't belong. 

I'm not taking a stand, and I find a lot of traditions to be fascinating, but let's not imagine up some era of ideal, pre-puritanical religious celebration.  Sure, many Christians adopted pagan practices, but that doesn't mean they were right in doing so.

So many of us hide in our houses refusing to join with our neighbours in this harmless activity, and let the opportunity to spread the love of Christ pass us by.  Instead, we stand on our laurels and distance ourselves more and more from the very people who need us.
Providing it is a harmless activity, which it can probably be crafted to be, I believe you are right though.  It's a good time for parents to have fun with their children.  But some of the nasty elements should be avoided or at least tempered, methinks.


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« Reply #597 on: October 29, 2011, 03:39:40 AM »

To be fair, Cromwell and his ilk banned Christmas and other holidays because they became festivals of drunkenness and perceived debauchery. 
The evil eye stuff and divination games are all fun and nifty too, but my priest, who I can assure you is not influenced by Calvin or any Western European puritanical thought, strongly believes  they don't belong. 

I'm not taking a stand, and I find a lot of traditions to be fascinating, but let's not imagine up some era of ideal, pre-puritanical religious celebration.  Sure, many Christians adopted pagan practices, but that doesn't mean they were right in doing so.

Never imagined such a thing. But objections should be based in fact, not fantasy that somehow in celebrating Halloween one is partaking in a pagan Samhain. It just ain't so. (I've stuffed up the quotes again.) Sad

So many of us hide in our houses refusing to join with our neighbours in this harmless activity, and let the opportunity to spread the love of Christ pass us by.  Instead, we stand on our laurels and distance ourselves more and more from the very people who need us.

Providing it is a harmless activity, which it can probably be crafted to be, I believe you are right though.  It's a good time for parents to have fun with their children.  But some of the nasty elements should be avoided or at least tempered, methinks.


I don't live in the States. I don't know what you have done to this holiday day over there! But because some people abuse Christmas celebrations, I wouldn't call for the cancelling of same.

As an Anglican, I was more focused on All Saints' Day. We had bobbing apples on Guy Fawkes in my childhood. 

Mod help! Quotes have gone haywire, but to my ineptitude.
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« Reply #598 on: October 29, 2011, 03:54:50 AM »

I don't live in the States. I don't know what you have done to this holiday day over there! But because some people abuse Christmas celebrations, I wouldn't call for the cancelling of same.

As an Anglican, I was more focused on All Saints' Day. We had bobbing apples on Guy Fawkes in my childhood.  

Mod help! Quotes have gone haywire, but to my ineptitude.

I've lived in both, and Halloween is pretty silly on this side.  For kids, I think it's more about getting loads of candy and dressing up rather than human sacrifice though.  At this point it's difficult to see many connections with All Saints Day, Hallows Eve, and such.  Shocking, but a "healthy" dose of consumer driven mania is present, along with a good bit of violence and other odd stuff.  Taking the day back would seem more of a stretch in the States.
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« Reply #599 on: October 29, 2011, 03:57:49 AM »

I don't live in the States. I don't know what you have done to this holiday day over there! But because some people abuse Christmas celebrations, I wouldn't call for the cancelling of same.

As an Anglican, I was more focused on All Saints' Day. We had bobbing apples on Guy Fawkes in my childhood. 

Mod help! Quotes have gone haywire, but to my ineptitude.

I've lived in both, and Halloween is pretty silly on this side.  For kids, I think it's more about getting loads of candy and dressing up rather than human sacrifice though.  At this point it's difficult to see many connections with All Saints Day, Hallows Eve, and such.  Shocking, but a healthy dose of consumer driven mania is present, along with a pretty "healthy" dose of violence and odd stuff.  Taking the day back would seem more of a stretch in the States.

You think it's lost its innocence for all time? I can understand that kind of objection, but not the silly "it's pagan and evil" claims.
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« Reply #600 on: October 29, 2011, 04:05:25 AM »

You think it's lost its innocence for all time? I can understand that kind of objection, but not the silly "it's pagan and evil" claims.

For all time, may a bit pessimistic.  It has almost become more random than anything else.  While there are pretty close ties to ghosts, ghouls, zombies, vampires, and such, there are also tons of princesses, sports figures, and ninjas walking around.  I think it's more in danger of losing all connection to the intended holiday than becoming outright evil.  I still love the Sleepy Hollow (I saw where the movie version was filmed near Watford  Smiley) type legends though.
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« Reply #601 on: October 29, 2011, 08:58:00 AM »

There's nothing wrong with the Eve of the Feast of All Saints.  angel I guess people got used to celebrating it on this day because of the RCC calendar and its influence on other churches. If you're worried about kids not understanding the holiday, perhaps the local parish could give a talk for them about the lives of the saints, followed by a costume party and refreshments. It would be fun and the kids would be doing something that also informs them about the faith. Just a thought.  Smiley
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« Reply #602 on: October 29, 2011, 10:47:10 AM »

For example the Orthodox Church we were at last Sunday had a Fall Festival with Pumpkin carving and apple bobbing for the kids, which I thought was kinda cool and would likely be the sort of thing you're talking about.

Apple bobbing was originally a form of divination. Seriously. Just an interesting side note.

See now that's a great example of both how wishy-washy I can be and of how something can be sanitized by loosing all connection to it's original context.
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« Reply #603 on: October 30, 2011, 12:59:50 AM »

I think I'll dress up as Martin Luther for Halloween. What could be scarrier than the heresies he gave birth to on October 31, 1517?



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« Reply #604 on: October 30, 2011, 02:13:54 AM »

only if you dress up as st. mary of egypt
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« Reply #605 on: October 30, 2011, 07:37:51 PM »


HALLOWEEN 
By His Grace Bishop Youssef of the Coptic Orthodox Diocese of the Southern United States


http://suscopts.org/literature/print.php?id=1076781490&archive



Selam
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« Reply #606 on: October 30, 2011, 08:32:35 PM »


HALLOWEEN 
By His Grace Bishop Youssef of the Coptic Orthodox Diocese of the Southern United States


http://suscopts.org/literature/print.php?id=1076781490&archive



Selam
My goodness! I didn't realise how far the USA had slipped. How could you guys turn a Christian holy day into a celebration that pays tribute to Satan? I'll keep praying for you.  Roll Eyes  <a jest should anyone have trouble understanding otherwise>



 
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« Reply #607 on: October 30, 2011, 08:34:42 PM »


HALLOWEEN 
By His Grace Bishop Youssef of the Coptic Orthodox Diocese of the Southern United States


http://suscopts.org/literature/print.php?id=1076781490&archive



Selam
My goodness! I didn't realise how far the USA had slipped. How could you guys turn a Christian holy day into a celebration that pays tribute to Satan? I'll keep praying for you.  Roll Eyes  <a jest should anyone have trouble understanding otherwise>



 

Just another fundie. And no they ain't fun.
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« Reply #608 on: October 30, 2011, 08:36:28 PM »

I think I'll dress up as Martin Luther for Halloween. What could be scarrier than the heresies he gave birth to on October 31, 1517?



Selam
You'd probably have to explain the costume to everyone you encounter. I advise writing out the theses on a big sandwich board and holding a "down with the Pope" sign in your other hand.
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« Reply #609 on: October 30, 2011, 08:40:29 PM »


HALLOWEEN 
By His Grace Bishop Youssef of the Coptic Orthodox Diocese of the Southern United States


http://suscopts.org/literature/print.php?id=1076781490&archive



Selam
My goodness! I didn't realise how far the USA had slipped. How could you guys turn a Christian holy day into a celebration that pays tribute to Satan? I'll keep praying for you.  Roll Eyes  <a jest should anyone have trouble understanding otherwise>



 

Just another fundie. And no they ain't fun.

Dear me, orthonorm! Don't you realise that fun is satanic!  Tongue
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« Reply #610 on: October 30, 2011, 08:43:26 PM »


HALLOWEEN 
By His Grace Bishop Youssef of the Coptic Orthodox Diocese of the Southern United States


http://suscopts.org/literature/print.php?id=1076781490&archive



Selam

I honestly love His Grace and the service he does for the Southern diocese, but once you already say that "Halloween" comes from "Saween" to show that it's Satanic, then you have to wonder, where does HG get his information from?  He's an Egyptian who came to the US seeing all these ghouls and monsters and probably a fan of chick.com gave him some info to use for this essay.  In Egypt, there used to be sub-cults of witches and sooth-sayers, who are more thieves than anything, playing with people's emotions and money (which is no different to the psychics here if you think about it).  You can imagine the same perception here.
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« Reply #611 on: October 30, 2011, 08:44:07 PM »


HALLOWEEN 
By His Grace Bishop Youssef of the Coptic Orthodox Diocese of the Southern United States


http://suscopts.org/literature/print.php?id=1076781490&archive



Selam
A good priest friend of mine wrote this, which I thought was worth sharing. Smiley

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« Reply #612 on: October 30, 2011, 08:44:19 PM »

HALLOWEEN 
By His Grace Bishop Youssef of the Coptic Orthodox Diocese of the Southern United States

http://suscopts.org/literature/print.php?id=1076781490&archive
My goodness! I didn't realise how far the USA had slipped. How could you guys turn a Christian holy day into a celebration that pays tribute to Satan? I'll keep praying for you.  Roll Eyes  <a jest should anyone have trouble understanding otherwise>

Just another fundie. And no they ain't fun.

I'm not following here.  The Coptic bishop is 'just another fundie'?

Riddikulus, don't single out your cousins across the pond.   Smiley  Take a look at the Wikipedia page for Halloween.  Witch/ghoul related costumes and decorations shown from Sweden, Ireland, Japan, etc.  It may be worse over here, but I don't exactly recall little ones running around with Anglican hymn books when I was over there either.
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« Reply #613 on: October 30, 2011, 08:45:44 PM »

I think I'll dress up as Martin Luther for Halloween. What could be scarrier than the heresies he gave birth to on October 31, 1517?



Selam
You'd probably have to explain the costume to everyone you encounter. I advise writing out the theses on a big sandwich board and holding a "down with the Pope" sign in your other hand.


 Grin



Selam
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« Reply #614 on: October 30, 2011, 08:52:06 PM »


HALLOWEEN 
By His Grace Bishop Youssef of the Coptic Orthodox Diocese of the Southern United States


http://suscopts.org/literature/print.php?id=1076781490&archive



Selam

I honestly love His Grace and the service he does for the Southern diocese, but once you already say that "Halloween" comes from "Saween" to show that it's Satanic, then you have to wonder, where does HG get his information from?  He's an Egyptian who came to the US seeing all these ghouls and monsters and probably a fan of chick.com gave him some info to use for this essay.  In Egypt, there used to be sub-cults of witches and sooth-sayers, who are more thieves than anything, playing with people's emotions and money (which is no different to the psychics here if you think about it).  You can imagine the same perception here.

I have no doubt that he is a delightful man. And don't feel bad, we have this kind of misinformation amongst EOs, too. I was actually wondering how much of this Halloween = Samhain argument (if it can be raised to that level) centres on misunderstandings between West and East. The "it's not ours, so it must be satanic" mindset. I also get the feeling history isn't a subject many people have a passion for, so they simply take whatever information is handed to them as the gospel truth without really digging further.
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« Reply #615 on: October 30, 2011, 08:53:34 PM »

BTW, I posted the link to the article by His Grace Bishop Youssef simply because I think it is good to hear what our Spiritual leaders say on the matter. I'm not saying that I agree with every point he makes, but I continue to maintain the basic principle that it is better to err on the side of holiness and caution rather than risk causing offense or perhaps becoming ensnared in one of satan's many traps.

As for my own personal approach to Halloween, this is what I posted last year:

http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,30894.0.html


Selam
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« Reply #616 on: October 30, 2011, 08:54:44 PM »

HALLOWEEN  
By His Grace Bishop Youssef of the Coptic Orthodox Diocese of the Southern United States

http://suscopts.org/literature/print.php?id=1076781490&archive
My goodness! I didn't realise how far the USA had slipped. How could you guys turn a Christian holy day into a celebration that pays tribute to Satan? I'll keep praying for you.  Roll Eyes  <a jest should anyone have trouble understanding otherwise>

Just another fundie. And no they ain't fun.

I'm not following here.  The Coptic bishop is 'just another fundie'?

Riddikulus, don't single out your cousins across the pond.   Smiley  Take a look at the Wikipedia page for Halloween.  Witch/ghoul related costumes and decorations shown from Sweden, Ireland, Japan, etc.  It may be worse over here, but I don't exactly recall little ones running around with Anglican hymn books when I was over there either.

The Bishop has singled out Americans, not me! And didn't you see that I tagged my post with "it's a jest!"?

Edited to add.   Grin Sorry, I was distracted with a chat elsewhere and left that post looking too humourless!
« Last Edit: October 30, 2011, 08:56:36 PM by Riddikulus » Logged

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« Reply #617 on: October 30, 2011, 08:59:09 PM »

HALLOWEEN 
By His Grace Bishop Youssef of the Coptic Orthodox Diocese of the Southern United States

http://suscopts.org/literature/print.php?id=1076781490&archive
My goodness! I didn't realise how far the USA had slipped. How could you guys turn a Christian holy day into a celebration that pays tribute to Satan? I'll keep praying for you.  Roll Eyes  <a jest should anyone have trouble understanding otherwise>

Just another fundie. And no they ain't fun.

I'm not following here.  The Coptic bishop is 'just another fundie'?

Riddikulus, don't single out your cousins across the pond.   Smiley  Take a look at the Wikipedia page for Halloween.  Witch/ghoul related costumes and decorations shown from Sweden, Ireland, Japan, etc.  It may be worse over here, but I don't exactly recall little ones running around with Anglican hymn books when I was over there either.

He really he is a puritan, but I wanted to make fun of him by not being a fun person so went for fundie, although I could make that argument because his applying a fundamentalist hermeneutic to Halloween.

He is proof texting something that doesn't exist. His Halloween never was and is not.

So in that case he is a fundamentalist. He has his sources and doesn't put much thought in the subject matter and that's that. He basically is begging the question writ large.

Halloween is evil, therefore it is evil.

Guess though I have to come up with a puritanical pun. This ain't coming to me . . .

Oh he is just another Wigglesworth, but he's probably never found much worth to wiggle for . . .

Uncle.

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« Reply #618 on: October 30, 2011, 09:07:14 PM »

HALLOWEEN 
By His Grace Bishop Youssef of the Coptic Orthodox Diocese of the Southern United States

http://suscopts.org/literature/print.php?id=1076781490&archive
My goodness! I didn't realise how far the USA had slipped. How could you guys turn a Christian holy day into a celebration that pays tribute to Satan? I'll keep praying for you.  Roll Eyes  <a jest should anyone have trouble understanding otherwise>

Just another fundie. And no they ain't fun.

I'm not following here.  The Coptic bishop is 'just another fundie'?

Riddikulus, don't single out your cousins across the pond.   Smiley  Take a look at the Wikipedia page for Halloween.  Witch/ghoul related costumes and decorations shown from Sweden, Ireland, Japan, etc.  It may be worse over here, but I don't exactly recall little ones running around with Anglican hymn books when I was over there either.

He really he is a puritan, but I wanted to make fun of him by not being a fun person so went for fundie, although I could make that argument because his applying a fundamentalist hermeneutic to Halloween.

He is proof texting something that doesn't exist. His Halloween never was and is not.


That's how I read it! And then it supposedly has clout because it's written by a Bishop and to be taken as spiritual advice, even though the scholarship is lacking. It's like saying that in celebrating Christmas one celebrating Saturnalia, worshipping the sun. (Which is what so many fundamentalists do claim.) Then construct a kind of Christmas that no one actually celebrates to prove the point.
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« Reply #619 on: October 30, 2011, 09:17:25 PM »

HALLOWEEN 
By His Grace Bishop Youssef of the Coptic Orthodox Diocese of the Southern United States

http://suscopts.org/literature/print.php?id=1076781490&archive
My goodness! I didn't realise how far the USA had slipped. How could you guys turn a Christian holy day into a celebration that pays tribute to Satan? I'll keep praying for you.  Roll Eyes  <a jest should anyone have trouble understanding otherwise>

Just another fundie. And no they ain't fun.

I'm not following here.  The Coptic bishop is 'just another fundie'?

Riddikulus, don't single out your cousins across the pond.   Smiley  Take a look at the Wikipedia page for Halloween.  Witch/ghoul related costumes and decorations shown from Sweden, Ireland, Japan, etc.  It may be worse over here, but I don't exactly recall little ones running around with Anglican hymn books when I was over there either.

He really he is a puritan, but I wanted to make fun of him by not being a fun person so went for fundie, although I could make that argument because his applying a fundamentalist hermeneutic to Halloween.

He is proof texting something that doesn't exist. His Halloween never was and is not.


That's how I read it! And then it supposedly has clout because it's written by a Bishop and to be taken as spiritual advice, even though the scholarship is lacking. It's like saying that in celebrating Christmas one celebrating Saturnalia, worshipping the sun. (Which is what so many fundamentalists do claim.) Then construct a kind of Christmas that no one actually celebrates to prove the point.

Spend more than a few months around some JWs and you will immediately have a knee jerk reaction to anything being written off as "pagan".
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« Reply #620 on: October 30, 2011, 09:23:06 PM »

HALLOWEEN 
By His Grace Bishop Youssef of the Coptic Orthodox Diocese of the Southern United States

http://suscopts.org/literature/print.php?id=1076781490&archive
My goodness! I didn't realise how far the USA had slipped. How could you guys turn a Christian holy day into a celebration that pays tribute to Satan? I'll keep praying for you.  Roll Eyes  <a jest should anyone have trouble understanding otherwise>

Just another fundie. And no they ain't fun.

I'm not following here.  The Coptic bishop is 'just another fundie'?

Riddikulus, don't single out your cousins across the pond.   Smiley  Take a look at the Wikipedia page for Halloween.  Witch/ghoul related costumes and decorations shown from Sweden, Ireland, Japan, etc.  It may be worse over here, but I don't exactly recall little ones running around with Anglican hymn books when I was over there either.

He really he is a puritan, but I wanted to make fun of him by not being a fun person so went for fundie, although I could make that argument because his applying a fundamentalist hermeneutic to Halloween.

He is proof texting something that doesn't exist. His Halloween never was and is not.


That's how I read it! And then it supposedly has clout because it's written by a Bishop and to be taken as spiritual advice, even though the scholarship is lacking. It's like saying that in celebrating Christmas one celebrating Saturnalia, worshipping the sun. (Which is what so many fundamentalists do claim.) Then construct a kind of Christmas that no one actually celebrates to prove the point.

you will immediately have a knee jerk reaction to anything being written off as "pagan".


You haven't already seen it? laugh
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« Reply #621 on: October 30, 2011, 09:33:40 PM »

The Bishop has singled out Americans, not me! And didn't you see that I tagged my post with "it's a jest!"?
Edited to add.   Grin Sorry, I was distracted with a chat elsewhere and left that post looking too humourless!

No need, I was right there with ya.   Smiley

He really he is a puritan, but I wanted to make fun of him by not being a fun person so went for fundie

Gotcha, thanks.

While he may be using a lousy fundamentalist argument to present his opinion, what about other Orthodox clergy who believe it's wrong to participate?  Let's face it, a lot of the Holy Fathers, Saints, Elders aren't/weren't particularly concerned with having fun or taking part in stuff they felt was spiritually dangerous.  Surely dressing up as witches and ghouls can't be viewed positively.  I personally think the reaction is a bit overkill, but I can understand the reason for their warnings.  Anywho
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« Reply #622 on: October 30, 2011, 09:34:19 PM »

Spend more than a few months around some JWs and you will immediately have a knee jerk reaction to anything being written off as "pagan".

I think I'll take your word for it.
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« Reply #623 on: October 30, 2011, 09:47:19 PM »

The Bishop has singled out Americans, not me! And didn't you see that I tagged my post with "it's a jest!"?
Edited to add.   Grin Sorry, I was distracted with a chat elsewhere and left that post looking too humourless!

No need, I was right there with ya.   Smiley

He really he is a puritan, but I wanted to make fun of him by not being a fun person so went for fundie

Gotcha, thanks.

While he may be using a lousy fundamentalist argument to present his opinion, what about other Orthodox clergy who believe it's wrong to participate?  Let's face it, a lot of the Holy Fathers, Saints, Elders aren't/weren't particularly concerned with having fun or taking part in stuff they felt was spiritually dangerous.  Surely dressing up as witches and ghouls can't be viewed positively.  I personally think the reaction is a bit overkill, but I can understand the reason for their warnings.  Anywho
Those pesky bishops, getting in the way of our fun. Next thing you know they're going to start telling us to fast from meat and dairy on certain days and not eat after midnight before receiving Communion. The horrorrrrrr!!  Shocked

In Christ,
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« Reply #624 on: October 30, 2011, 09:59:17 PM »

Do you want you want. But I love those holiday versions of Reece's Cups. You'll take my greater peanut butter to chocolate ratio beloved, pumpkin-shaped snack from my cold dead hand.

If a few souls must suffer so that I get a chance to enjoy a novelty candy, one of the few candies I enjoy, so be it.

There I've come clean.

Really, who doesn't like those things? Especially the XL ones?
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« Reply #625 on: October 30, 2011, 10:01:55 PM »

Those pesky bishops, getting in the way of our fun. Next thing you know they're going to start telling us to fast from meat and dairy on certain days and not eat after midnight before receiving Communion. The horrorrrrrr!!  Shocked

Bunch of internet, hyperdox bishops they are.  Don't get me started on my priest; he's so cliché with his long beard and Greek speaking.  He doesn't even think I should have extramarital sex.  How lame is that?  It's not like I'm worshiping the devil or anything.  Another thing, he doesn't think I should cast spells, venerate statutes of Buddha, or worship the devil.  Again, lame.  

Back to my centering prayer, where I'll be focusing on my holy word: Ganesha!

P.S. Not into sweets myself, especially American ones, but as they go, Reece's are probably the best.
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« Reply #626 on: October 30, 2011, 10:08:34 PM »

The Bishop has singled out Americans, not me! And didn't you see that I tagged my post with "it's a jest!"?
Edited to add.   Grin Sorry, I was distracted with a chat elsewhere and left that post looking too humourless!

No need, I was right there with ya.   Smiley

He really he is a puritan, but I wanted to make fun of him by not being a fun person so went for fundie

Gotcha, thanks.

While he may be using a lousy fundamentalist argument to present his opinion, what about other Orthodox clergy who believe it's wrong to participate?  Let's face it, a lot of the Holy Fathers, Saints, Elders aren't/weren't particularly concerned with having fun or taking part in stuff they felt was spiritually dangerous.  Surely dressing up as witches and ghouls can't be viewed positively.  I personally think the reaction is a bit overkill, but I can understand the reason for their warnings.  Anywho

I believe that someone has already said it. The Ango-Puritan mindset has infiltrated the Church, more so in the States, I believe. I hear this complaint from Catholics, too. Whereas the cultures of Catholics and Orthodox simply incultrated the non-explicitly Christian practices into their Christian faith, as did the Anglo before the Reformation, the fundamentalist sees it and misunderstands it immediately. Thus, the claims of "satanic" at every turn.  
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« Reply #627 on: October 30, 2011, 10:21:35 PM »

Again, is the Anglo-Puritan mindset to blame for the writings and positions taken by the Holy Fathers, living Elders, and countless priests who have very little exposure to this?  I think this causation is exaggerated or only applicable in some cases.  My priest, for instance, is from Greece not America, knows next to nothing about Protestantism, and is simply going by his traditional understanding.

I'm not disagreeing with your overall point, but sometimes Orthodox positions are, well, Orthodox.  I completely agree, however, that we should guard against excessive influence from faiths outside of the Orthodox ones.  I'd love to continue, but I've honestly got to run.
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« Reply #628 on: October 30, 2011, 10:25:01 PM »

Didn't someone post earlier that Christmas trees originated from a tradition where they burn a tree and make sacrifices, sometimes human sacrifices, on that tree?  Or something pagan like that?

Today, I heard a sermon that there are Wiccans or Satanists here that do human sacrifice, and that this information he got from the police, especially on Halloween.  Would anyone venture to help me on this one?
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« Reply #629 on: October 30, 2011, 10:26:51 PM »

Again, is the Anglo-Puritan mindset to blame for the writings and positions taken by the Holy Fathers, living Elders, and countless priests who have very little exposure to this?  I think this causation is exaggerated or only applicable in some cases.  My priest, for instance, is from Greece not America, knows next to nothing about Protestantism, and is simply going by his traditional understanding.

I'm not disagreeing with your overall point, but sometimes Orthodox positions are, well, Orthodox.  I completely agree, however, that we should guard against excessive influence from faiths outside of the Orthodox ones.  I'd love to continue, but I've honestly got to run.

Well, again. Who objected to All Hallow's and its accompanying festivities in the first place? Since it became part of an official celebration in the 8th Century?
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