Is it OK for Orthodox Christians to celebrate Halloween?

[GabrieltheCelt]

Ah, well, I rest my case. Good ol' fashioned throat slashin' and demon possessin'. What's not to love? Esp for us Orthodox Christians. More blood, more gore, more murdering, more profanity, more dulling of the senses, more evil. Who care's what the Church may think or that it might be bad for my pyche, I just want my big ol' tub of popcorn and to be pandered to.

[Cephas]

+ Irini nem ehmot,

I just want my big ol' tub of popcorn and to be pandered to.

[in best Darth Vader impression] Welcome to the Dark Side!

[minasoliman]

Ah, well, I rest my case. Good ol' fashioned throat slashin' and demon possessin'. What's not to love? Esp for us Orthodox Christians. More blood, more gore, more murdering, more profanity, more dulling of the senses, more evil. Who care's what the Church may think or that it might be bad for my pyche, I just want my big ol' tub of popcorn and to be pandered to.

I think eating pineapple pizza and anchovy pizza is heretical, blasphemy, and downright despicable!

[Αριστοκλής]

Of course it is...everyone knows it's pineapple and anchovy pizza...can't separate them and call it good pizza.

[minasoliman]

Of course it is...everyone knows it's pineapple and anchovy pizza...can't separate them and call it good pizza.

Oh my...what has the world gotten into 

PS no fair...that's cheating

[Cephas]

+ Irini nem ehmot,

Of course it is...everyone knows it's pineapple and anchovy pizza...can't separate them and call it good pizza.

OH THE HUMANITY!!!!!!!!

[PeterTheAleut]

I don't know what happened to my original post - one minute it was here and then gone.  I'm sure it wasn't much of a loss but I'm going to try and post again.

This thread is haunted.  I had the same problem last night.

[PeterTheAleut]

This is as good a time as any to crush your Yankee hopes and point out that the Diamondbacks are winning it all this year. 

Yeah, right.   This is the year the Cubs finally bury the Curse of the Billy Goat for good.

[minasoliman]

This thread is haunted.

Pun intended?

[PeterTheAleut]

Of course it is...everyone knows it's pineapple and anchovy pizza...can't separate them and call it good pizza.

Anchovies on pizza?  BAH!   You haven't had pizza unless you've eaten one with smoked oysters on it.

[Αριστοκλής]

Good idea! I just bought two cans...now if I could only make pizza dough that didn't come out like concrete mortar. Smoked oysters AND anchovies...yes!

[PeterTheAleut]

Good idea! I just bought two cans...now if I could only make pizza dough that didn't come out like concrete mortar. Smoked oysters AND anchovies...yes!

I once tried anchovies straight out of the can.  Saltier than most sailors...

[lubeltri]

although I disliked the Exorcism of Emily Rose.  The latter was just too odd, and the ending/explanation of the movie just didn't sit right with me. 

I saw it, as it received good reviews from Catholic film critics and the US Conference of Catholic Bishops (no "O" rating for "Morally Offensive"). Interestingly, I saw it with a group of Catholic and Evangelical friends. The Catholics, to a man, thought it quite good. All but one of the Evangelicals did not like it---[POSSIBLE SPOILERS]the Marian stuff rubbed them the wrong way, and the whole atmosphere of the supernatural (though I thought the movie was quite good at treading the ambiguous middle ground) bothered them (they are generally of the "grounded" kind like the Methodist prosecutor in the film). What bothered them most, however, was the idea that a "saved" person like Emily Rose could be possessed in the first place, and why a Christian like Emily would choose to continue her suffering for the sake of others---the concepts of redemptive suffering and the "victim soul" being objectionable to them.

I must say, it really stimulated some interesting discussion afterwards. Some more lukewarmly religious friends of mine saw it and did not like it because they were expecting a horror/suspense film (which it really isn't) instead of a court case. The Exorcist it certainly wasn't.

[lubeltri]

Of course it is...everyone knows it's pineapple and anchovy pizza...can't separate them and call it good pizza.

I love pineapple pizza and anchovy pizza, but together? 

I really want to try a pizza with fried clams on it. I'm on such a fried clam kick since I tried them New England style---whole belly clams instead of strips.

[GabrieltheCelt]

I think eating pineapple pizza and anchovy pizza is heretical, blasphemy, and downright despicable!

Sidestepping the issue? You'd make a great politician. And BTW, I'm fluent in sarcasm, so keep it up.

[minasoliman]

Sidestepping the issue?

I was really making a very subtle point. 

[Jakub]

Lubeltri,

Most places serve clam necks, not bellies, hard to find out in the left coast...

[Αριστοκλής]

guess we'll can the anchovy talk...

[minasoliman]

guess we'll can the anchovy talk...

  was fun for the night

[Αριστοκλής]

Please...carry on!


Talk about nutty tags...  V

[Ebor]

I do not intend any disrespect to the cleric who wrote this essay, but there are a number of errors or assertions that lack any real support in it. 

These pagan peoples believed that physical life was born from death.

Since the early Celts and Britons did not leave much in the way of written records, I wonder what source is used for this.

A certain deity, whom they called Samhain, was believed by the Celts to be the lord of Death, and it was he whom they honored at their New Year's festival.

This is an often repeated idea that is just not true.  There is NO Celtic god of death named "Samhain"/"Samain"/etc which by the way is pronounced more like "Sow'en".  It is the gaelic word that means "Summer's End".

Here is a Christian site with information on Halloween.  Along with looking at pagan and Christian customs in history, near the bottom of the first page is some information about just *when* "Trick or treat" started.  It isn't "druidic" by many many centuries.  The earliest written record of it that the author found is from 1938. 

http://www.new-life.net/halowen1.htm
http://www.new-life.net/halowen2.htm

Here is a site from Ireland about it
http://www.irelandforvisitors.com/articles/samhain.htm

And as a side note, there is not much record at all of just what the Druids or any other Celtic religions did or believed.  I will again recommend "The Pagan Religions of the Ancient British Isles" by Ronald Hutton, a scholar at the University of Bristol in England.  Another of his books that I found good is "Stations of the Sun: a History of the Ritual Year in Britain" which is about the folk customs of the year and how they go along with Christianity. 

If desired, I can also provide neo-pagan sites that also say that there is no such spirit/god as "Samhain".  This got started somehow, I suspect by someone who didn't understand what they were reading or didn't comprehend other cultures and then it got picked up by others and it took off.

On the eve of the New Year's festival, the Druids who were the priests of the Celtic cult, instructed their people to extinguish all hearth fires and lights. On the evening of the festival a huge bonfire built of oak branches, which they believed to be sacred, was ignited. Upon this fire sacrifices of crops, animals, and even human beings, were burned as an offering in order to appease and cajole Samhain, the lord of Death.

Again, I wonder what the source is for this, the extinguishing of the lights in particular.  There is the instance of St. Patrick in Ireland kindling a fire when no one was supposed to until that of the High King at Tara was lighted.  But in that case the saint was lighting the Pascal fire, that is to say, it was in the Spring. But whatever the case there would not have been a fire to any "Samhain" (see above).

The dialogue of "trick or treat" is also an integral part of this system of beliefs and practices. It was believed that the souls of the dead who had entered into the world of darkness, decay, and death, and therefore into total communion with and submission to Samhain the lord of Death, bore the affliction of great hunger on their festal visit. Out of this grew the practice of begging, which was a further ritual enactment and imitation of what the Celts believed to be the activities of the souls of the dead on their festal visit. Associated with this is the still further implication that if the souls of the dead and their imitators were not appeased with "treats," i.e., offerings, then the wrath and anger of Samhain, whose angels and servants the souls and their imitators had become, would be unleashed through a system of "tricks," or curses.

This reads like some of the "Jack Chick" booklet that the pastor refers to on the site I've linked to. "Begging" in the sense of going about and getting something is a British Isles custom at such times as Christmas (wassailing the neighbors for example, or the "Wren Boys" on St. Stephen's Day) and, I've been told, to get things to mark "Guy Fawkes Day" on the 5th of November ("Remember, remember, the Fifth of November/Gunpowder, Treason and Plot...")
http://www.hymnsandcarolsofchristmas.com/Hymns_and_Carols/Notes_On_Carols/wassailing.htm
http://www.irishfestivals.net/saintstephensday.htm

As a side note, in Japan the Feast of O-bon in the summer, marks the belief that one's ancestors return for a visit.  It's a festival to remember those who have passed on. And on November 1 is, of course Dia de Muertos with candy skulls and customs to set out food that family members liked.  It is a Human thing to want to remember our family and friends who have passed away.  But I suspect that someone who did not know about the culture and customs of Japan or Mexico might just to a conclusion that it was "satanic"

I will also confess that I'm having a bit of a difficulty with this sentence:

For if we participate in the ritual activity of imitating the dead by dressing up in their attire or by wandering about in the dark, or by begging with them, then we have willfully sought fellowship with the dead, whose lord is not Samhain as the Celts believed but Satan, the Evil One who stands against God.

The "lord" of the dead is Satan?  Ummm, I thought that God was the lord of those who have gone before us.  Perhaps I'm not fully understanding his ideas.

Further, if we submit to the dialogue of "trick or treat," we make our offering not to innocent children, but rather to Samhain, the lord of Death whom they have come to serve as imitators of the dead, wandering in the dark of night.

I'm sorry, no such being, and when I hand out Hershey's and Smarties it's to the 10 y.o. at the end of the block dressed as a princess and the boys in the football uniforms (and then there are our kids who've been such things as a rocket ship, "Arthur and DW" (type casting it was) Legolas and a "little Hobbit Girl", Raggedy Ann (Important note: after colouring the string mop head in the Rit red dye, do NOT put it in the dryer.. Do NOT.  You'll get a mess of fibers and strings and have to start all over again.) an elephant, a dinosaur, and ear of corn, a Blue Crab (we were insane that year), Faramir, and more.  Not a gruesome thing in the lot.

Out of this arose the practice of the jack o'lantern (in the USA, a pumpkin; in older days other vegetables were used) which was carved in imitation of the dead and used to convey the new light and fire to the home where the lantern was left burning throughout the night. Even the use and display of the jack o'lantern involves celebration of and participation in the pagan festival of death honoring the Celtic god Samhain.

No, this is not the case.  What we now know as the Jack O'lantern comes from a folktale involving a man named Jack.  Here is one version and an interesting letter about the custom:
http://www.new-life.net/halowen4.htm
http://www.new-life.net/halowen7.htm#turnip

In the days of the early Celtic Church, which was strictly Orthodox,

Again, I mean no disrespect, but I wonder what he means by that and what his sources are for much of the rest of the essay. 

The Western Church's attempt to supplant this pagan festival with the Feast of All Saints failed.

   It's a Principal Feast and supplants regular Sunday liturgies if November 1 should fall on that day of the week and if it falls during the week it is moved to the next Sunday.  It is never missed. 

That was a simple renaming of a very old satanic feast of Walpurgis Night (night of April 30 into the day of May 1) - the great yearly demonic Sabbath during which all the participants united in "a fellowship of Satan."

Just as a side note, Walpurgis is the feast day of St. Walburga, an abbess and missionary to the Germanic people in the 700's.  The pagan name for the start of summer is "Beltain" and it is marked by lighting fires. (Considering that for most of human history the only way to have light in darkness was fire it's not surprising that bonfires or lanterns or other lights are part of celebrations and rituals. One may recall that William Manchester wrote a book called "A World Lit Only by Fire").  From my reading that is the holiday that St. Patrick lit his fire before the High King's.

If anyone would like more links and titles, I will be glad to provide them. .... Or I may have gone far enough that people's eyes are glazing over. 

Ebor

[Ebor]

Please...carry on!


Talk about nutty tags...  V

Oh! Oh!  Can I play.  How about some of the things that go on pizza in Japan?  Not just anchovies or clams but a "Seafood Special" with "Shrimp, Squid, Octopus, Clam, Scallops, Crab Legs".  Or how about the Four Flavours with Shrimp, White Sesame/ Asparagus, Bacon/ Chopped Beef, Garlic, Steak Sauce/ Shimeji Mushrooms, Mushrooms, Red Pepper? 

And the most popular topping in Japan is said to be...... Sweet Corn

Ebor

[Νεκτάριος]

Yeah, right. Roll Eyes  This is the year the Cubs finally bury the Curse of the Billy Goat for good.

Off to a fantastic start there. 

GO DIAMONDBACKS!

[PeterTheAleut]

Off to a fantastic start there. 

GO DIAMONDBACKS!

Hey, the Cubs still have four games in which to win their three to put your D-Backs to rest and move on.

(Sorry about the edit to your post.  I meant to quote the post but hit the wrong button. )

[Ian Lazarus]

I think eating pineapple pizza and anchovy pizza is heretical, blasphemy, and downright despicable

Heretical?  I don't think that you can go wrong with most pizza toppings.  Though, in that regard, I am a traditionalist.  Beef, sausage and meatball with extra cheese.

BTW,  the movie EVENT HORIZON gave me the jibbluies more than the above listed movies.  It's just that scary.

[lubeltri]

One may recall that William Manchester wrote a book called "A World Lit Only by Fire"). 

A book utterly worthless for reading, of course. Makes great toilet paper, though. When I see a copy of it in a bookstore (like last month), I have a strong temptation to remove it from circulation in that very fashion.

Thanks for the very erudite discussion of the real origins of Halloween customs.

[Symeon]

A book utterly worthless for reading, of course. Makes great toilet paper, though. When I see a copy of it in a bookstore (like last month), I have a strong temptation to remove it from circulation in that very fashion.

I particularly appreciated its assertion that iconoclasm was the traditional and early view of the Church.  Worthless book indeed.

And Halloween is fine by me. 

[Nacho]

I think some people are being extreme here lol. Lots not get too fruity like the protestants who have no fun. I would concur with Ebor's great post. I will always celebrate halloween and sometimes I even go out of my way and wear a costume. Still have a cool looking priest costume from a few years back. 

[TinaG]

Well, I don't know about made, but many Evangelicals have said that the money we use to buy the candy in the stores, some of them go to the church of Wicca.  If that is true, I personally would boycott buying the candy.  But I'd like some verification on that one.

I think that what you've probably heard is some kind of Evangelical/Fundie urban legend that gets used as another argument against Halloween.  This is the same type of misinformation that got Procter & Gamble inundated with Christian hate mail and boycotts several years ago.  Back in the 80's their old logo had a moon and stars woodcut drawing that people claimed contained the number 666.    Absolutely no connection but it actually caused the company to change their logo which had been used for over 140 years.  Even after the change, there were still internet warnings going around about their link to satanism and the anti-christ.

I think you are perfectly safe eating and giving out name brand candies.  The real Halloween offense is giving out lousy cheap candies.  Don't you remember separating your Halloween candies into piles of good stuff (real chocolate) and the stuff you'd only eat if you were starving or you'd trade it 3-for-one with your brothers and sisters?

[TinaG]

church of Wicca. 

Forgot to mention, the give away clue here is that there is no "church of Wicca".  There is an incorporated, tax-exempt Church of Satanism but for the most part, Wiccans are not very well organized and there is no umbrella religious hierarchy that speaks for all flavors of Wicca.  Most are individuals or house covens, others belong to some pseudo-official Wiccan organizations.  I doubt you could find enough cohesiveness in pagan communities to pull off this kind of conspiracy.

[ytterbiumanalyst]

I think that I should say that The 700 Club is totally against it. Just a taste of the wonderful journalism found here:

The lures of the Enemy are running more rampant. Chidren do not have to sneak over to their friends' houses to access demonic influences. There are online ouija boards that require only a mouse, as well as thousands of Web sites that specifically recruit young people to join the occult.

Hmm. I seemed to have survived childhood without going to an online ouija board or being recruited for this so-called Occult (a term which I heard an evangelical in my previous church apply to Orthodoxy).

Occultic-oriented rock performers have flourished in this generation. Some rockers even try to persuade teenage listeners to kill themselves and their parents.

No, sorry to burst your bubble, but Gene Simmons, Alice Cooper, and Marilyn Manson are really just trying to make a ridiculous amount of money. They really don't care what happens to your children.

there are Gospel tracts designed for trick-or-treaters that can be purchased online or at your Christian bookstore.

What child wouldn't want Jack Chick at Halloween? It's much tastier than Reese's.

Scripture Candy, the makers of Fish Mints™ contain wrappers that have scriptural text. Also, EvangeCandy,"the only candy with color-coded Gospels on every wrapper" are fun for children.

Yes, the child who got this and didn't immediately throw it in the trash if not back in the face of the one who gave it to him will receive wedgies all day Nov. 1. Indeed, EvangeCandy is great fun for children.

So I ask, are these really the sort of xenophobic control freaks we really want to be associating ourselves with? Pat Robertson is a sick man who desperately needs serious psychological and spiritual help. His opinion on anything is IMO a strong case for the opposition.

[Ebor]

A book utterly worthless for reading, of course.

I didn't mention this book to recommend it.  It was just the title. Sometimes we forget that the way things are now is not how they have always been.  So with electric lights in homes and street lamps and businesses and being able to do things at night easily because if them, it can be useful to stop and think of what things were like (and still are in some parts of the world) not all that long ago.  It was Really dark at night with only stars and moon and fire.

Thanks for the very erudite discussion of the real origins of Halloween customs.

You're welcome.  Information is a Good Thing.   
(I've also been known to go into Anglo-Saxon and how there is no such thing as any 'goddess' named "Eostre" in the spring  )

Ebor

[Ebor]

Well, I don't know about made, but many Evangelicals have said that the money we use to buy the candy in the stores, some of them go to the church of Wicca.  If that is true, I personally would boycott buying the candy.  But I'd like some verification on that one.

As TinaG wrote, there is no organized 'church of Wicca'.  This sounds like more along the "Jack Chick" line.  Have you ever read any of those btw?  They can be ummm rather excessive?  undocumented?  wildly inaccurate?  It's hard to find the right set of words.  Do you recall if they gave any names of companies? 

I agree that the arguments used are no different than using them against Harry Potter.  In fact, I think Our Life in Christ radio commented on how there are Orthodox Christian themes in Harry Potter itself.

Indeed there are and there is a well known EO gentleman, John Granger, who has written books on this and has a blog as well that discusses them:  http://www.hogwartsprofessor.com/

I would say that celebrating Halloween is equivalent to going to the beach or just sitting around and play some board games with friends and family.  Now, I am called to do all things through His glory, but not to get into a conversation 24/7 about spirituality and theology.  Let's be practical here.  If Halloween was a time for friends and family and neighborhoods to get together in a modest and loving sense, why object?  Is it not the glory of God to simply make peace and friends and be a good example?  I personally wouldn't do so to compromise my own faith.  I think no one disagrees on that.

Well written.   

Ebor

[ytterbiumanalyst]

In Chick's own article "Kid's (sic) Treat or Pagan Trick?" here, he cites the following references:

Celebrations - The Complete Book of American Holidays, Robt. J. Myers, (Doubleday & Co., 1972). Amazon link: note that it's edited by Hallmark Cards
The Famous Druids, A. L. Owen, (Clarendon Press, Oxford, 1962). Amazon link
The American Book of Days, George William Douglas, (H.W. Wilson Co., 1948). Amazon link
The Two Babylons, Rev. Alexander Hislop, (Chick Publications, 1998). He references something he himself published.

[Keble]

Well, I don't know about made, but many Evangelicals have said that the money we use to buy the candy in the stores, some of them go to the church of Wicca.  If that is true, I personally would boycott buying the candy.  But I'd like some verification on that one.

Well, as someone else pointed out, there's no such "church". But also, consider your three main US candy sources:

• Nestle is a huge multinational conglomerate. I'm sure some wiccans hold stock in it, but one has to draw the line somewhere.
• Mars is a family-owned business. Last time I checked they were held to be pretty right-wing.
• Hershey is mostly owned by a charitable foundation.

I've checked Snopes and they don't list this, but even if one doesn't know the details, it's an implausible bit of nonsense.

[Cephas]

+ Irini nem ehmot,

Okay, someone's gotta tell me how to do the upside-down letters.   

[Ebor]

In Chick's own article "Kid's (sic) Treat or Pagan Trick?" here, he cites the following references:

Celebrations - The Complete Book of American Holidays, Robt. J. Myers, (Doubleday & Co., 1972). Amazon link: note that it's edited by Hallmark Cards

Well this one has no reviews on Amazon.  I can check it out later, but I have a suspicion that it's a kind of catch-all that isn't a work of historical scholarship.

The Famous Druids, A. L. Owen, (Clarendon Press, Oxford, 1962). Amazon link

Here is the the book description from Amazon:
 "Owen traces classical and Gaelic writings on the Druids, and then discusses the ideas about these pre-Christian priests that informed English literature from the 16th to the 19th centuries. He finds these literary notions to be at variance with the ideas about the Druids current before and after the period."

and another bit on it: "The author discusses the 'famous and mysterious Druidae' as they appeared in the creations and conjectures of English literature from the sixteenth to the nineteenth centuries".

Emphasis added by me.

Jack Chick would seem to be taking the *literary* imaginings of much later writers for actual historical fact.  Which they aren't, just to be clear. 

The American Book of Days, George William Douglas, (H.W. Wilson Co., 1948). Amazon link

I haven't found much on this book yet, but since from my readings of Jack Chick works I have found many inaccuracies and historical errors, I don't really expect that this book was read as it was intended either.   

And then there's

The Two Babylons, Rev. Alexander Hislop, (Chick Publications, 1998). He references something he himself published.

Oh golly, it's this one again.  This was originally published in 1853 and then expanded.  This is the subtitle: "or The Papal Worship Proved to be the Worship of Nimrod and His Wife".  This is a grindingly anti-RC work (and if Hislop had known about EO I think that he would have included it in his "Pagan Worship" accusation.)  It can be read on-line if one really feels the need. An RC friend asked me years ago to pick up a copy from him to so that he would have it as a reference if it ever got invoked against his Church, so yes, I have had and read it.  It is still used today as an anti-RC polemic.

This is probably going to sound harsh, but without any kind of back-up or support, I wouldn't trust Jack Chick to interpret a greeting card, let alone any kind of scholarly work.  There was one tract of his on D&D, "Dark Dungeons" is the title that listed Tolkien and C. S. Lewis as authors whose works were "satanic".  He'd been told this by someone and accepted it without question.  In a later edition of this work that note was taken out.

Ebor

[Ebor]

+ Irini nem ehmot,

Okay, someone's gotta tell me how to do the upside-down letters.   

Turn your monitor upside down while you type?   

Ebor

[Cephas]

+ Irini nem ehmot,

Turn your monitor upside down while you type?   

Ebor

Touché! 

[TinaG]

• Nestle is a huge multinational conglomerate. I'm sure some wiccans hold stock in it, but one has to draw the line somewhere.

Nestle' most controversial position is that they are the world's largest manufacturer and distributor of baby formula.  There has been a longstanding boycott of Nestle products by breastfeeding advocates.  Their products go far beyond chocolates.  There is a lot of evidence that they unethically market baby formulas in third-world countries where breastfeeding is the only guarantee of long term baby health, but also outright dangerous because there are usually no clean water sources to mix up the stuff.

I'll back down off my soapbox now.

[lubeltri]

Nestle' most controversial position is that they are the world's largest manufacturer and distributor of baby formula.  There has been a longstanding boycott of Nestle products by breastfeeding advocates.  Their products go far beyond chocolates.  There is a lot of evidence that they unethically market baby formulas in third-world countries where breastfeeding is the only guarantee of long term baby health, but also outright dangerous because there are usually no clean water sources to mix up the stuff.

I'll back down off my soapbox now.

May I also mention that their chocolate s**ks?

[Ian Lazarus]

May I also mention that their chocolate s**ks?

I dunno.  Their dark chocolate is pretty good.  And I know there are dutch and german brands that do it better, but I don't wanna pay 10 bucks for a piece of chocolate no bigger than my thumb. 

[lubeltri]

I dunno.  Their dark chocolate is pretty good.  And I know there are dutch and german brands that do it better, but I don't wanna pay 10 bucks for a piece of chocolate no bigger than my thumb. 

There's always Cadbury. Yummmmmmmmm. . .

[Ian Lazarus]

There's always Cadbury. Yummmmmmmmm. . .

EH, take it or leave it.  Actually Ghiradelli don't do a half bad job, but then I gets all greedy-like and hand out Hersheys on Halloween, to my everlasting shame.

[TinaG]

May I also mention that their chocolate s**ks?

Well, there you have it.  And as further proof of Nestle's evilness, if you re-arrange the letters it spells "SNETLE".  Obviously satanic.

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