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Question: Is it OK for Orthodox Christians to celebrate Halloween?
Yes - 77 (41%)
No - 78 (41.5%)
Maybe - 13 (6.9%)
Unsure - 13 (6.9%)
Other (Explain) - 7 (3.7%)
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Author Topic: Is it OK for Orthodox Christians to celebrate Halloween?  (Read 96642 times) Average Rating: 0
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« Reply #720 on: November 03, 2011, 05:13:15 PM »

So was Samhein a god or what?  Tongue Grin

Are you trying to be a troublemaker?   Grin Cheesy



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 laugh I don't know how many times I've tried to convince *a believer* that Samhain wasn't a god, but this anti-halloween nonsense is all over the internet so it must be right. Shame to see the Orthodox perpetuating the myth, though.
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« Reply #721 on: November 04, 2011, 12:15:11 AM »

When I was a kid my father, who had been stationed in England for a while during WWII, would occasionally jest about something that was not believable by saying "It *must* be true.  It's on the BBC."  with a slight British accent. 

So I guess now it's "It must be true.  It's on the internet" (though my fingers just now wanted to Lolcat it as "on teh inter-webs")

 Wink

But just to say it again There is NO such being as "Samhain" a "god" 

And that's the truth.
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« Reply #722 on: November 04, 2011, 01:19:01 AM »

When I was a kid my father, who had been stationed in England for a while during WWII, would occasionally jest about something that was not believable by saying "It *must* be true.  It's on the BBC."  with a slight British accent. 

So I guess now it's "It must be true.  It's on the internet" (though my fingers just now wanted to Lolcat it as "on teh inter-webs")

 Wink

But just to say it again There is NO such being as "Samhain" a "god" 

And that's the truth.

It deserves repeating, Ebor - There is NO such being as "Samhain" a "god"!
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« Reply #723 on: November 04, 2011, 03:40:46 AM »

So, through all the research that I have done I have come to the conclusion that there has never been a god named Samhain...
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« Reply #724 on: November 04, 2011, 04:00:15 AM »

So, through all the research that I have done I have come to the conclusion that there has never been a god named Samhain...

Welllllll, maybe!  Wink  laugh

As an aside, have you read the Gods of the Celts by Miranda Green? I bought it when I was in England, and still haven't got around to read it yet.
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« Reply #725 on: November 04, 2011, 04:14:00 AM »

So, through all the research that I have done I have come to the conclusion that there has never been a god named Samhain...

Welllllll, maybe!  Wink  laugh

As an aside, have you read the Gods of the Celts by Miranda Green? I bought it when I was in England, and still haven't got around to read it yet.

No, I have not, but I have heard about it. I would like to get a copy and read it on my down time; I love just about anything to do with the Celts.
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« Reply #726 on: November 04, 2011, 04:20:51 AM »

So, through all the research that I have done I have come to the conclusion that there has never been a god named Samhain...

Welllllll, maybe!  Wink  laugh

As an aside, have you read the Gods of the Celts by Miranda Green? I bought it when I was in England, and still haven't got around to read it yet.

No, I have not, but I have heard about it. I would like to get a copy and read it on my down time; I love just about anything to do with the Celts.

Yes, I wish we knew more of them from themselves and not from their enemies or later Christian Celts. Fascinating people, what we do know of them.
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« Reply #727 on: November 04, 2011, 06:42:29 AM »

So, through all the research that I have done I have come to the conclusion that there has never been a god named Samhain...
Does that mean you're an atheist  Roll Eyes?
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« Reply #728 on: November 04, 2011, 08:00:05 AM »

So, through all the research that I have done I have come to the conclusion that there has never been a god named Samhain...

Welllllll, maybe!  Wink  laugh

As an aside, have you read the Gods of the Celts by Miranda Green? I bought it when I was in England, and still haven't got around to read it yet.

No, I have not, but I have heard about it. I would like to get a copy and read it on my down time; I love just about anything to do with the Celts.
Have you read Julius Caesar's The Gallic Wars?
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« Reply #729 on: November 04, 2011, 09:39:14 AM »

Geoffrey Higgins then  promoted this error of a supposed god Samhain in a book in 1827 when  he attempted to prove that the Druids originally came from India. The error might have originated in confusion over the name of Samana, an ancient Vedic/Hindu deity.
"Samana" (Pali; from the Sanskrit "Shramana") was a wandering ascetic of ancient India. The Buddha is perhaps the most famous of the ancient samanas.

Some have proposed a connection between "shaman" and "samana", but that is very unlikely.

Clement of Alexandria mentions the Samanas/Shramanas:

Quote
Thus philosophy, a thing of the highest utility, flourished in antiquity among the barbarians, shedding its light over the nations. And afterwards it came to Greece. First in its ranks were the prophets of the Egyptians; and the Chaldeans among the Assyrians; and the Druids among the Gauls; and the Samanæans among the Bactrians; and the philosophers of the Celts; and the Magi of the Persians, who foretold the Saviour’s birth, and came into the land of Judæa guided by a star. The Indian gymnosophists are also in the number, and the other barbarian philosophers. And of these there are two classes, some of them called Sarmanæ [Σαρμάναι; Pali/Sanskrit Samana/Shramana], and others Brahmins [Βραφμαναι]. And those of the Sarmanæ [Σαρμάναι]who are called Hylobii neither inhabit cities, nor have roofs over them, but are clothed in the bark of trees, feed on nuts, and drink water in their hands. Like those called Encratites in the present day, they know not marriage nor begetting of children.

Some, too, of the Indians obey the precepts of Buddha; whom, on account of his extraordinary sanctity, they have raised to divine honours.

The "Hylobii" are likely those known as the Jains. Siddhartha Gautama practiced (and eventually relinquished) Jain forms of meditation before becoming the Buddha.
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« Reply #730 on: November 04, 2011, 10:41:10 AM »

So, through all the research that I have done I have come to the conclusion that there has never been a god named Samhain...
Does that mean you're an atheist  Roll Eyes?

Only is the loosest meaning of the word  Cheesy

So, through all the research that I have done I have come to the conclusion that there has never been a god named Samhain...

Welllllll, maybe!  Wink  laugh

As an aside, have you read the Gods of the Celts by Miranda Green? I bought it when I was in England, and still haven't got around to read it yet.

No, I have not, but I have heard about it. I would like to get a copy and read it on my down time; I love just about anything to do with the Celts.
Have you read Julius Caesar's The Gallic Wars?

Not completely, no, but I did watch the movie Druids with Christopher Lambert, does that count?  Cool
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« Reply #731 on: November 04, 2011, 03:46:31 PM »

Gallic Wars is fantastic. And no, Druids dont count. The only Christopher Lambert movie that counts is.....umm....wait...no....no movie of his counts.

PP
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« Reply #732 on: November 04, 2011, 05:08:11 PM »

So, through all the research that I have done I have come to the conclusion that there has never been a god named Samhain...

Welllllll, maybe!  Wink  laugh

As an aside, have you read the Gods of the Celts by Miranda Green? I bought it when I was in England, and still haven't got around to read it yet.

No, I have not, but I have heard about it. I would like to get a copy and read it on my down time; I love just about anything to do with the Celts.
Have you read Julius Caesar's The Gallic Wars?

Sheer progoganda!!  Wink (Only skimmed it.)
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« Reply #733 on: November 04, 2011, 11:19:23 PM »

So, through all the research that I have done I have come to the conclusion that there has never been a god named Samhain...

I think that was the name of the pagan holiday, not a specific god. Just from what I've read.
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« Reply #734 on: November 04, 2011, 11:46:09 PM »

So, through all the research that I have done I have come to the conclusion that there has never been a god named Samhain...

I think that was the name of the pagan holiday, not a specific god. Just from what I've read.

Samhain roughly means "Summer's End" in Gaelic. It was the end of one of the only two seasons that the Celts observed. Summer was the season of light; Winter the season of dark. It's really the end of the old year and the beginning of the new. Standing between the two halves of the year as it did, Summer’s End was somehow a time that was not a time; suspended in time, it was a period when the borders between the natural and the supernatural dissolved. The spirits from the otherworld might then move freely into the realm of those still living. Summer's end was signified by the last harvest of the season and the gathering of herds from high fields or inside from the harsh months of winter.
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« Reply #735 on: November 05, 2011, 12:03:25 AM »

So, through all the research that I have done I have come to the conclusion that there has never been a god named Samhain...

I think that was the name of the pagan holiday, not a specific god. Just from what I've read.

Samhain roughly means "Summer's End" in Gaelic. It was the end of one of the only two seasons that the Celts observed. Summer was the season of light; Winter the season of dark. It's really the end of the old year and the beginning of the new. Standing between the two halves of the year as it did, Summer’s End was somehow a time that was not a time; suspended in time, it was a period when the borders between the natural and the supernatural dissolved. The spirits from the otherworld might then move freely into the realm of those still living. Summer's end was signified by the last harvest of the season and the gathering of herds from high fields or inside from the harsh months of winter.

Yes, Samhain would have been considered a time between time - a time that had magical properties according to the Celts. Other examples of these times would be the time between night and day (like almost right before the sun rose) and the changing of the seasons. Some times special emphasis was put on the in between places - like the edge of a forest and a clearing, or where water meets dry land - and the in between times (night and day); these were said to be especially full of magic and one might even cross over into the Otherworld (where the fair folk were said to dwell).
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« Reply #736 on: November 05, 2011, 12:16:08 AM »

So, through all the research that I have done I have come to the conclusion that there has never been a god named Samhain...

I think that was the name of the pagan holiday, not a specific god. Just from what I've read.

Samhain roughly means "Summer's End" in Gaelic. It was the end of one of the only two seasons that the Celts observed. Summer was the season of light; Winter the season of dark. It's really the end of the old year and the beginning of the new. Standing between the two halves of the year as it did, Summer’s End was somehow a time that was not a time; suspended in time, it was a period when the borders between the natural and the supernatural dissolved. The spirits from the otherworld might then move freely into the realm of those still living. Summer's end was signified by the last harvest of the season and the gathering of herds from high fields or inside from the harsh months of winter.

Yes, Samhain would have been considered a time between time - a time that had magical properties according to the Celts. Other examples of these times would be the time between night and day (like almost right before the sun rose) and the changing of the seasons. Some times special emphasis was put on the in between places - like the edge of a forest and a clearing, or where water meets dry land - and the in between times (night and day); these were said to be especially full of magic and one might even cross over into the Otherworld (where the fair folk were said to dwell).

Right. I have read that this misunderstanding of Samahin being a god is due to popular modern writers on early Ireland having taken to reassigning the name to Crom Crúaich; implying that he gave his name to the feast. I haven't seen it myself, but apparently there is at least one American encyclopaedia that repeats this conjecture, though it is completely unsupported by the early Irish texts.
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« Reply #737 on: November 05, 2011, 12:38:01 AM »

So, through all the research that I have done I have come to the conclusion that there has never been a god named Samhain...

I think that was the name of the pagan holiday, not a specific god. Just from what I've read.

Samhain roughly means "Summer's End" in Gaelic. It was the end of one of the only two seasons that the Celts observed. Summer was the season of light; Winter the season of dark. It's really the end of the old year and the beginning of the new. Standing between the two halves of the year as it did, Summer’s End was somehow a time that was not a time; suspended in time, it was a period when the borders between the natural and the supernatural dissolved. The spirits from the otherworld might then move freely into the realm of those still living. Summer's end was signified by the last harvest of the season and the gathering of herds from high fields or inside from the harsh months of winter.

Yes, Samhain would have been considered a time between time - a time that had magical properties according to the Celts. Other examples of these times would be the time between night and day (like almost right before the sun rose) and the changing of the seasons. Some times special emphasis was put on the in between places - like the edge of a forest and a clearing, or where water meets dry land - and the in between times (night and day); these were said to be especially full of magic and one might even cross over into the Otherworld (where the fair folk were said to dwell).

Right. I have read that this misunderstanding of Samahin being a god is due to popular modern writers on early Ireland having taken to reassigning the name to Crom Crúaich; implying that he gave his name to the feast. I haven't seen it myself, but apparently there is at least one American encyclopaedia that repeats this conjecture, though it is completely unsupported by the early Irish texts.

Not only is it in an American encyclopedia (pardon the American spelling) but it is repeated widely through out the States and has started to spread elsewhere through out the world as if Americans are the authority on all things (we think we are). Despite how ever much scholarship is done to prove that Samhain was not a god but only a holiday conservatives and fundamentalist will still preach against Halloween
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« Reply #738 on: November 05, 2011, 12:52:03 AM »

So, through all the research that I have done I have come to the conclusion that there has never been a god named Samhain...

I think that was the name of the pagan holiday, not a specific god. Just from what I've read.

Samhain roughly means "Summer's End" in Gaelic. It was the end of one of the only two seasons that the Celts observed. Summer was the season of light; Winter the season of dark. It's really the end of the old year and the beginning of the new. Standing between the two halves of the year as it did, Summer’s End was somehow a time that was not a time; suspended in time, it was a period when the borders between the natural and the supernatural dissolved. The spirits from the otherworld might then move freely into the realm of those still living. Summer's end was signified by the last harvest of the season and the gathering of herds from high fields or inside from the harsh months of winter.

Yes, Samhain would have been considered a time between time - a time that had magical properties according to the Celts. Other examples of these times would be the time between night and day (like almost right before the sun rose) and the changing of the seasons. Some times special emphasis was put on the in between places - like the edge of a forest and a clearing, or where water meets dry land - and the in between times (night and day); these were said to be especially full of magic and one might even cross over into the Otherworld (where the fair folk were said to dwell).

Right. I have read that this misunderstanding of Samahin being a god is due to popular modern writers on early Ireland having taken to reassigning the name to Crom Crúaich; implying that he gave his name to the feast. I haven't seen it myself, but apparently there is at least one American encyclopaedia that repeats this conjecture, though it is completely unsupported by the early Irish texts.

Not only is it in an American encyclopedia (pardon the American spelling) but it is repeated widely through out the States and has started to spread elsewhere through out the world as if Americans are the authority on all things (we think we are). Despite how ever much scholarship is done to prove that Samhain was not a god but only a holiday conservatives and fundamentalist will still preach against Halloween

 laugh It is somewhat disconcerting how easily people accept error, though. How often do we see this in the conservative/fundamentalist stand against the "evils of Catholicism", all of which amount little more than slander? Once an error is accepted it's very hard to convince otherwise.
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« Reply #739 on: November 05, 2011, 10:09:13 AM »

So, through all the research that I have done I have come to the conclusion that there has never been a god named Samhain...

I think that was the name of the pagan holiday, not a specific god. Just from what I've read.

Samhain roughly means "Summer's End" in Gaelic. It was the end of one of the only two seasons that the Celts observed. Summer was the season of light; Winter the season of dark. It's really the end of the old year and the beginning of the new. Standing between the two halves of the year as it did, Summer’s End was somehow a time that was not a time; suspended in time, it was a period when the borders between the natural and the supernatural dissolved. The spirits from the otherworld might then move freely into the realm of those still living. Summer's end was signified by the last harvest of the season and the gathering of herds from high fields or inside from the harsh months of winter.

Yes, Samhain would have been considered a time between time - a time that had magical properties according to the Celts. Other examples of these times would be the time between night and day (like almost right before the sun rose) and the changing of the seasons. Some times special emphasis was put on the in between places - like the edge of a forest and a clearing, or where water meets dry land - and the in between times (night and day); these were said to be especially full of magic and one might even cross over into the Otherworld (where the fair folk were said to dwell).

Right. I have read that this misunderstanding of Samahin being a god is due to popular modern writers on early Ireland having taken to reassigning the name to Crom Crúaich; implying that he gave his name to the feast. I haven't seen it myself, but apparently there is at least one American encyclopaedia that repeats this conjecture, though it is completely unsupported by the early Irish texts.

Not only is it in an American encyclopedia (pardon the American spelling) but it is repeated widely through out the States and has started to spread elsewhere through out the world as if Americans are the authority on all things (we think we are). Despite how ever much scholarship is done to prove that Samhain was not a god but only a holiday conservatives and fundamentalist will still preach against Halloween

 laugh It is somewhat disconcerting how easily people accept error, though. How often do we see this in the conservative/fundamentalist stand against the "evils of Catholicism", all of which amount little more than slander? Once an error is accepted it's very hard to convince otherwise.

Very true, but one thing that does help to overcome an accepted error is desperation, but some error - like a certain god who has never existed in any mythology - can not be over come.
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« Reply #740 on: November 05, 2011, 12:30:50 PM »

Well, one can be one small light,as it were, and provide real history and real information if possible against misunderstandings and misinterpretations and plain old mistakes. And then there are the wild wrongness of things like the Jack Chick works.  Things that with a little bit of real information can be taken apart in two shakes.

There are some scholars who put out information about things like this or just about what we really do know about people in "deep history".  Ronald Hutton is one that I've mentioned before.

P.S.  There's no 'god' called Samhain and the Anglo-Saxons didn't have any 'goddess' named "Eostre" either.... So there.  Wink  the more repetitions, maybe sometimes it'll be remembered.
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« Reply #741 on: November 05, 2011, 12:40:02 PM »

So, through all the research that I have done I have come to the conclusion that there has never been a god named Samhain...

I think that was the name of the pagan holiday, not a specific god. Just from what I've read.

Samhain roughly means "Summer's End" in Gaelic. It was the end of one of the only two seasons that the Celts observed. Summer was the season of light; Winter the season of dark. It's really the end of the old year and the beginning of the new. Standing between the two halves of the year as it did, Summer’s End was somehow a time that was not a time; suspended in time, it was a period when the borders between the natural and the supernatural dissolved. The spirits from the otherworld might then move freely into the realm of those still living. Summer's end was signified by the last harvest of the season and the gathering of herds from high fields or inside from the harsh months of winter.
Now this would be my understanding of Samhain as well. No, it is not the celebration of evil incarnate that Halloween seems to be trying to become, at least in the States (or at very least in my neighborhood), but the bolded part is what I see as the nastiness related to the origin. It is this is interaction with “spirits from the otherworld” I would object to, at least in a non-Christian context.

This is because up to this point I have viewed things spiritual as being either of God or of the Devil. Now maybe I'm wrong and I'm not yet far enough into my understanding of Orthodox spiritually to know if this needs to change or not.
 
To be fair I would apply this understanding of mine to all non-Christian cultures both geographically and chronologically, to those I'm related to Celts, Swedes, Germans, Chinese and those I'm not. Also again yes, I do enjoy and read history, archeology and the like, but I'm not afraid to say I've got a lot of learning yet to do.
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« Reply #742 on: November 05, 2011, 01:02:09 PM »

So, through all the research that I have done I have come to the conclusion that there has never been a god named Samhain...

I think that was the name of the pagan holiday, not a specific god. Just from what I've read.

Samhain roughly means "Summer's End" in Gaelic. It was the end of one of the only two seasons that the Celts observed. Summer was the season of light; Winter the season of dark. It's really the end of the old year and the beginning of the new. Standing between the two halves of the year as it did, Summer’s End was somehow a time that was not a time; suspended in time, it was a period when the borders between the natural and the supernatural dissolved. The spirits from the otherworld might then move freely into the realm of those still living. Summer's end was signified by the last harvest of the season and the gathering of herds from high fields or inside from the harsh months of winter.
Now this would be my understanding of Samhain as well. No, it is not the celebration of evil incarnate that Halloween seems to be trying to become, at least in the States (or at very least in my neighborhood), but the bolded part is what I see as the nastiness related to the origin. It is this is interaction with “spirits from the otherworld” I would object to, at least in a non-Christian context.

This is because up to this point I have viewed things spiritual as being either of God or of the Devil. Now maybe I'm wrong and I'm not yet far enough into my understanding of Orthodox spiritually to know if this needs to change or not.
 
To be fair I would apply this understanding of mine to all non-Christian cultures both geographically and chronologically, to those I'm related to Celts, Swedes, Germans, Chinese and those I'm not. Also again yes, I do enjoy and read history, archeology and the like, but I'm not afraid to say I've got a lot of learning yet to do.


In Celtic tradition the otherworld was the home of the fair folk (i.e. fairies and what not). According to some this is where the Celts learned their knowledge from and the fair folk were usually helpful to humans. There are some accounts where men have passed into the otherworld and were treated to great feasts that lasted for hours and hours and when they returned home only but a moment had passed. This otherworld was not where the evil spirits came from, but rather like the Celtic Elysian Fields if you will.
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« Reply #743 on: November 05, 2011, 01:09:54 PM »

Well, what about the very common human impulse to remember family or friends who have passed away?  This week in Mexico and other places people celebrated Dia de Muertos.  In Japan in the latter part of summer is the feast of O-Bon for the same reason. For both of these some hold that the spirits of those who have gone before come back to be with the living whom they loved.  Parents who have lost children may want to remember and I do not think that the idea that putting out some toys and favourite food of their dead son or daughter is in itself "demonic".  Thanks to modern medicine people in the U.S. do not see as much death as in the past.. Ex: until the early 20th century many children did not live to see their first birthday and more did not live to the age of five due to disease and injury.  

So the Celtic people weren't the only ones who thought that the "border" could be eased, as it were and it wasn't necessarily evil on the "other side".  It could be where the dead went as well as the place of beings who were not "Earthly" but perhaps also not hostile or wicked.  And again, we really don't know what people believed then if they didn't tell us with records.

A question:  Why would you apply your understanding to "all non-Christian cultures"?  

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« Reply #744 on: November 05, 2011, 01:57:49 PM »

Yes, I'm aware that's how the Celts viewed the otherworld, and I've read some of those accounts, albeit a long time ago. In my previous world view, which may need some changing, I would have still said it's all either God or Satan no room for neutral beings (which would be a very interesting additional topic I think.) So regardless of how these non-Judeo-Christian*cultures described such encounters I would have said that what wasn't of God was of the enemy, even if the enemy was putting a good face on it at the time. *(I thought for a moment and decided not including the Jewish roots of Christianity was an oversight on my part.)

As to families and remembering until recently I would have looked askance at that, even in Judeo-Christian cultures, but this is changing now. As to why I would apply it to all cultures, well the very universality you described Ebor would be the reason for that. This and again there is only one God so whatever was not of Him was ultimately of the Devil. Now, should I adjust that view?
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« Reply #745 on: November 05, 2011, 03:41:21 PM »

I think that perhaps I was not clear.  Why would *your* personal opinion be applicable to all cultures?  Human beings are finite and cannot know all, as you have admitted regarding your own knowledge.   God as the Creator of all things is "universal" but that is different. 

 


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« Reply #746 on: November 05, 2011, 05:17:17 PM »

.. I would have still said it's all either God or Satan no room for neutral beings (which would be a very interesting additional topic I think.

I wrote a little about this a while ago, although of course it is only my opinion.  There are two ways of looking at the worship found in Celtic lands and in Buddhism, Hinduism, Shintoism, Islam, etc.

1.  The first one is to start from the verse of the Psalms "All the gods of the pagans are demons."

2.  The second is to understand that it is God Himself who has planted in man the need to worship Him.   In the places outside the countries of divine revelation (first Israel, and now the Christian countries) this God-given urge took many forms.  Some of the religions which were formed were mild and benevolent (Buddhism) and some were militant (Islam) and some (thank God, now extinct) required such ghastly things as human sacrifice.  And in the last example we can see the demons at work, perverting the human need to worship.

Man is created to worship God, and man will find for himself the ways to satisfy the need God has put so deep in his heart.  He can no more help worshipping than he can eating.  Without divine revelation he is not able to create true and pure religion and so he gets parts of it wrong.

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« Reply #747 on: November 05, 2011, 08:11:56 PM »

If I may add to Irish Hermit's post.  C.S. Lewis used the term "good dreams" for what God imparted to people in other times/places from the Middle East and the development of Judaism and Christianity, the impulse to do right and follow/worship God in some way.  It may have been in "Mere Christianity"  I'd have to check.

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« Reply #748 on: November 05, 2011, 11:22:42 PM »

I think that perhaps I was not clear.  Why would *your* personal opinion be applicable to all cultures?  Human beings are finite and cannot know all, as you have admitted regarding your own knowledge.   God as the Creator of all things is "universal" but that is different. 

 



Ah, I see, perhaps I could have been clearer myself. My personal opinion is, of course, no more applicable to any culture, my own included, than would be the opinion of a pot of petunias. Rather, I should say this opinion of mine is the lens, through which I would evaluate the varied cultures of this world around me. As poor a lens as it may be, to this point it is the only one I have got. Still with help from all of you, it need not necessarily remain that way.

As to the other points, both Father Ambrose's and your follow up to that these are good things for me to ponder. I thank you both.
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« Reply #749 on: October 01, 2012, 08:11:10 PM »

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« Reply #750 on: October 01, 2012, 08:40:03 PM »

Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!

I'd like too add this note.

I really have no beef with Halloween, its family and community oriented, and that is so absolutely rare in America we should really support it Smiley

However, it doesn't mean EVERYTHING is game.  Somethings are all in good fun, and somethings are culturally insensitive.  For example, I personally do not support "pirate costumes" because they are so insensitive to the real history of pirates, many of whom were actually just unlicensed slave raiders and traders.  Pardon me for employing Godwin's law, but we know that Nazi costumes or the KKK would be grossly inappropriate, and yet for black folks from the Caribbean pirates were really the same thing Sad

"You teach the youth about the Pirate Morgan, and you said he was a very great man.." Peter Tosh

Sometimes the costumes are a glorifying or romanticing terrible aspects of our mutual human history, and this sets the wrong tone for children.  Children learn pirates are fun, how will they believe the truth when we try to teach them that? Further sometimes Halloween especially glorifies and romanticizes violence, and we also need to avoid this religiously.  Fun and innocent costumes are one thing, parity and satire costumes are another, but insensitive and desensitizing costumes can be a serious problem.

Also, many folks use Halloween as an excuse for either gluttony on bad foods (which is both spiritually damaging and also bad for the health) and misbehavior.  It shouldn't be about that.  Kids learn that eating waaay to much candy is fun, and it becomes hardwired.  Adults especially often use Halloween parties as an excuse for out right debauchery, as if Halloween parties were like Vegas and what happens there stays there.  We need to avoid these as well.

Halloween = not so bad

What some folks do for Halloween = not so good

stay blessed,
habte selassie
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« Reply #751 on: October 01, 2012, 08:47:46 PM »

So basically no Pirate-Zombie costume for Habte?  Grin
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« Reply #752 on: October 01, 2012, 08:53:00 PM »

Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!

So basically no Pirate-Zombie costume for Habte?  Grin

Zombies maybe, I dig George Romero DEFINITELY and militantly not pirates police

stay blessed,
habte selassie
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« Reply #753 on: October 01, 2012, 09:00:56 PM »

Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!

So basically no Pirate-Zombie costume for Habte?  Grin

Zombies maybe, I dig George Romero DEFINITELY and militantly not pirates police

stay blessed,
habte selassie
My favorite pirate is Pontius Pirate.
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« Reply #754 on: October 01, 2012, 09:10:35 PM »

Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!

So basically no Pirate-Zombie costume for Habte?  Grin

Zombies maybe, I dig George Romero DEFINITELY and militantly not pirates police

stay blessed,
habte selassie
My favorite pirate is Pontius Pirate.
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« Reply #755 on: October 01, 2012, 09:50:19 PM »

Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!

I'd like too add this note.

I really have no beef with Halloween, its family and community oriented, and that is so absolutely rare in America we should really support it Smiley

However, it doesn't mean EVERYTHING is game.  Somethings are all in good fun, and somethings are culturally insensitive.  For example, I personally do not support "pirate costumes" because they are so insensitive to the real history of pirates, many of whom were actually just unlicensed slave raiders and traders.  Pardon me for employing Godwin's law, but we know that Nazi costumes or the KKK would be grossly inappropriate, and yet for black folks from the Caribbean pirates were really the same thing Sad

"You teach the youth about the Pirate Morgan, and you said he was a very great man.." Peter Tosh

Sometimes the costumes are a glorifying or romanticing terrible aspects of our mutual human history, and this sets the wrong tone for children.  Children learn pirates are fun, how will they believe the truth when we try to teach them that? Further sometimes Halloween especially glorifies and romanticizes violence, and we also need to avoid this religiously.  Fun and innocent costumes are one thing, parity and satire costumes are another, but insensitive and desensitizing costumes can be a serious problem.

Also, many folks use Halloween as an excuse for either gluttony on bad foods (which is both spiritually damaging and also bad for the health) and misbehavior.  It shouldn't be about that.  Kids learn that eating waaay to much candy is fun, and it becomes hardwired.  Adults especially often use Halloween parties as an excuse for out right debauchery, as if Halloween parties were like Vegas and what happens there stays there.  We need to avoid these as well.

Halloween = not so bad

What some folks do for Halloween = not so good

stay blessed,
habte selassie

Good thoughts brother. I think your words I highlighted in bold are the key here. Witches, demons, ghosts, and fairies are also romanticized as harmless fun. Many children develop an unhealthy fascination with ungodly supernatural things, and in their teenage years they become drawn to Wicca, fortune telling, tarot cards, Oija boards, and other accoutrements of the occult.


Selam
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« Reply #756 on: October 01, 2012, 10:21:36 PM »

Yes, it's okay to celebrate Halloween, but only on the Saturday after Pentecost. We're not Western heretics after all. Tongue

Actually that would be funny to try. Hyperdox Herman would do it.
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« Reply #757 on: October 01, 2012, 11:06:35 PM »

The Feast of All Saints was not fixed in the west until the 8th century, in Rome. At that time, Ireland and Celtic Europe had been Christian for centuries. In fact, Ireland was overflowing with sanctity and sent many missionaries to Europe. So, to say there is any kind of actual connection between the Christian feast and the pagan Celtic one seems very misinformed.
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« Reply #758 on: October 02, 2012, 07:21:24 AM »

Quote
Many children develop an unhealthy fascination with ungodly supernatural things, and in their teenage years they become drawn to Wicca, fortune telling, tarot cards, Oija boards, and other accouterments of the occult
I doubt there are very many occult teenagers that will say they got their love of these things from Halloween. Thats like saying "I became an alcoholic by attending an English Football match."

PP
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« Reply #759 on: October 02, 2012, 09:29:49 AM »

Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!

I'd like too add this note.

I really have no beef with Halloween, its family and community oriented, and that is so absolutely rare in America we should really support it Smiley

However, it doesn't mean EVERYTHING is game.  Somethings are all in good fun, and somethings are culturally insensitive.  For example, I personally do not support "pirate costumes" because they are so insensitive to the real history of pirates, many of whom were actually just unlicensed slave raiders and traders.  Pardon me for employing Godwin's law, but we know that Nazi costumes or the KKK would be grossly inappropriate, and yet for black folks from the Caribbean pirates were really the same thing Sad

"You teach the youth about the Pirate Morgan, and you said he was a very great man.." Peter Tosh

Sometimes the costumes are a glorifying or romanticing terrible aspects of our mutual human history, and this sets the wrong tone for children.  Children learn pirates are fun, how will they believe the truth when we try to teach them that? Further sometimes Halloween especially glorifies and romanticizes violence, and we also need to avoid this religiously.  Fun and innocent costumes are one thing, parity and satire costumes are another, but insensitive and desensitizing costumes can be a serious problem.

Also, many folks use Halloween as an excuse for either gluttony on bad foods (which is both spiritually damaging and also bad for the health) and misbehavior.  It shouldn't be about that.  Kids learn that eating waaay to much candy is fun, and it becomes hardwired.  Adults especially often use Halloween parties as an excuse for out right debauchery, as if Halloween parties were like Vegas and what happens there stays there.  We need to avoid these as well.

Halloween = not so bad

What some folks do for Halloween = not so good

stay blessed,
habte selassie

So does Christianity in the eyes of many.  cf the Crusades.
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« Reply #760 on: October 02, 2012, 09:58:13 AM »


Why is it that the kids are drawn to blood and gore?  They wish to be zombies, bloody vampires, goblins, demons, etc.

They pour "blood" all over themselves, darken their eyes as if they have no life left in them, rip their clothes, etc.  Adults, too.

They drink oozing, bubbly stuff, eat bloody fingers, and basically enjoy all things evil and dark.

God forbid there should be a massacre in their hometown....then they are amazed and horrified by all the bloody bodies....and yet, they glorify that same hideousness.

No matter how much you teach the kids, and explain to them that demons are not good, that they work against God, etc....they are still drawn to it because their friends like it and encourage it.  They beg to go to haunted houses, want to buy zombie contact lenses, etc.

Why don't any of them wish to dress as saints?  We have warrior saints which are full of adventure and glory.  They could dress as St. George, or what about Arch. Michael with a fiery sword, or St. Constantine, or Empress Helena with a crown and jewels.

I think we are onto something here.  Who can sew?  We should "offer" these ideas to them.  Cheesy
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« Reply #761 on: October 02, 2012, 10:34:10 AM »


Why is it that the kids are drawn to blood and gore?  They wish to be zombies, bloody vampires, goblins, demons, etc.

They pour "blood" all over themselves, darken their eyes as if they have no life left in them, rip their clothes, etc.  Adults, too.

They drink oozing, bubbly stuff, eat bloody fingers, and basically enjoy all things evil and dark.

God forbid there should be a massacre in their hometown....then they are amazed and horrified by all the bloody bodies....and yet, they glorify that same hideousness.

No matter how much you teach the kids, and explain to them that demons are not good, that they work against God, etc....they are still drawn to it because their friends like it and encourage it.  They beg to go to haunted houses, want to buy zombie contact lenses, etc.

Why don't any of them wish to dress as saints?  We have warrior saints which are full of adventure and glory.  They could dress as St. George, or what about Arch. Michael with a fiery sword, or St. Constantine, or Empress Helena with a crown and jewels.

I think we are onto something here.  Who can sew?  We should "offer" these ideas to them.  Cheesy


'Cuz they are kids and gross stuff is cool..... Wink Always has been, always will be....
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« Reply #762 on: October 02, 2012, 10:48:37 AM »

Quote
Many children develop an unhealthy fascination with ungodly supernatural things, and in their teenage years they become drawn to Wicca, fortune telling, tarot cards, Oija boards, and other accouterments of the occult
I doubt there are very many occult teenagers that will say they got their love of these things from Halloween. Thats like saying "I became an alcoholic by attending an English Football match."

PP

Are you saying the latter situation is impossible? English football matches aren't necessarily known for being dry, stodgy affairs. It ain't Ascot.
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« Reply #763 on: October 02, 2012, 11:43:48 AM »

Quote
Many children develop an unhealthy fascination with ungodly supernatural things, and in their teenage years they become drawn to Wicca, fortune telling, tarot cards, Oija boards, and other accouterments of the occult
I doubt there are very many occult teenagers that will say they got their love of these things from Halloween. Thats like saying "I became an alcoholic by attending an English Football match."
PP

Are you saying the latter situation is impossible? English football matches aren't necessarily known for being dry, stodgy affairs. It ain't Ascot.
No, Im not saying it is impossible. Im saying it is highly unlikely. I just think there are many more dangerous examples of occultism and demonic activities that lead to teenagers doing evil things than Halloween. I think it is used as an object of attack simply because its there.

If you remove Halloween, you'll do absolutely nothing about kids and the occult.

PP
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« Reply #764 on: October 02, 2012, 12:59:05 PM »

Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!

Quote
Many children develop an unhealthy fascination with ungodly supernatural things, and in their teenage years they become drawn to Wicca, fortune telling, tarot cards, Oija boards, and other accouterments of the occult
I doubt there are very many occult teenagers that will say they got their love of these things from Halloween. Thats like saying "I became an alcoholic by attending an English Football match."
PP

Are you saying the latter situation is impossible? English football matches aren't necessarily known for being dry, stodgy affairs. It ain't Ascot.
No, Im not saying it is impossible. Im saying it is highly unlikely. I just think there are many more dangerous examples of occultism and demonic activities that lead to teenagers doing evil things than Halloween. I think it is used as an object of attack simply because its there.

If you remove Halloween, you'll do absolutely nothing about kids and the occult.

PP
I agree that it is highly unlikely, but that is no reason that Brother Gebre Menfes Kidus shouldn't (a) raise his children spiritually focused in whichever direction he prefers, and (b) express his feelings freely in the discussion even if we disagree.  The brother isn't attacking anything, simply expressing his genuine concerns.  I'm sure most of y'all have little experience with the Caribbean and have no problem then with pirates, or are not part of Indian families and so don't see the harm in cowboys. I am a part of both communities, and I see the big picture cultural harm our society receives when we ignore, romanticize, or trivialize these serious aspect of our mutual history. In regards to the occult and black magic, I live in LA, I have see many Santaria altars and offerings, even sacrificed roosters on street corners under murals of Saints, so in some respects our brother is not too far off.  Like the Caribbeans and Indian folks, does this necessarily directly effect everyone? Not necessarily, but as the good Doctor King explained, "Injustice anywhere is injustice everywhere," so perhaps it should Wink

stay blessed,
habte selassie
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"Yet stand aloof from stupid questionings and geneologies and strifes and fightings about law, for they are without benefit and vain." Titus 3:10
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