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Poll
Question: Is it OK for Orthodox Christians to celebrate Halloween?
Yes - 78 (40.6%)
No - 78 (40.6%)
Maybe - 15 (7.8%)
Unsure - 14 (7.3%)
Other (Explain) - 7 (3.6%)
Total Voters: 192

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Author Topic: Is it OK for Orthodox Christians to celebrate Halloween?  (Read 100625 times) Average Rating: 0
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Sophia
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« Reply #180 on: November 03, 2007, 12:31:57 PM »

When our children went out for candy we didn't let them be anything like "witches, serial killers," etc. During the "protestant stage" of our journey, we didn't pass out candy, took them to the church festival for games, candy, etc.  For the past several years we've done the following:

Prior to passing our candy, we prepare in prayer.  We pray over the candy as well; blessing the candy with Holy Water.  When we pass out candy with a smile, we're silently praying over the children.  As they are leaving our porch, we say "God bless you, or God be with you".  

May the grace and peace of our Lord Christ Jesus be with you,

Sophia
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Luk 9: And an argument arose among them as to which of them was the greatest.  John answered, Master, we saw a man casting out demons in your name, and we forbade him, because he does not follow with us.  But Jesus said to him, Do not forbid him; for he that is not against you is for you.
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« Reply #181 on: November 03, 2007, 04:54:42 PM »

Good grief, the religious right isn't content to just take Halloween away from everybody, but now they want to make passing out candy a religious experience. 
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PeterTheAleut
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« Reply #182 on: November 03, 2007, 05:09:42 PM »

Good grief, the religious right isn't content to just take Halloween away from everybody, but now they want to make passing out candy a religious experience. 
And why not?  Should we not make EVERYTHING a means of communicating God's grace and love? Wink
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« Reply #183 on: November 03, 2007, 05:13:13 PM »

And why not?  Should we not make EVERYTHING a means of communicating God's grace and love? Wink

Next thing you know, you'll be trying to convince me that Christmas is about Jesus and not Santa Claus. 
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PeterTheAleut
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« Reply #184 on: November 03, 2007, 05:20:58 PM »

Next thing you know, you'll be trying to convince me that Christmas is about Jesus and not Santa Claus. 
Not biting...
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« Reply #185 on: November 03, 2007, 05:51:45 PM »


And why not?  Should we not make EVERYTHING a means of communicating God's grace and love? Wink
]


Very well put :-)


May the grace and peace of our Lord Christ Jesus be with you

Sophia



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Luk 9: And an argument arose among them as to which of them was the greatest.  John answered, Master, we saw a man casting out demons in your name, and we forbade him, because he does not follow with us.  But Jesus said to him, Do not forbid him; for he that is not against you is for you.
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« Reply #186 on: November 04, 2007, 12:05:52 AM »

Speaking of celebrating halloween, these people did it 16-bit style. Awesome.
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« Reply #187 on: March 18, 2008, 11:04:31 AM »

I don't think it's wrong to dress up and go trick or treating, as long as your parents explain to you the pagan roots and remain careful about it. Christmas has pagan roots, yet it's okay to have a Christmas tree, or other decorations. The holiday does, however, have a grim pagan past, which is why I think if your church is doing its own thing that would be better to go to. Halloween is also a very dangerous night too, we always have to catch our cat and keep her indoors the whole time because their are nuts out there who still do sacrifices. The night is also full of vandalism where people go house to house smashing pumpkins.
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« Reply #188 on: March 18, 2008, 03:12:58 PM »

Last I checked, the origin of Christmas was to celebrate the birth of Christ. You really can't get less pagan than that. I'm not sure what you mean by "your church doing its own thing"--as if the whole world does something different from what Christians do. It's our holiday; the people who celebrate Christmas are Christians. Those who celebrate something other than Christ's birth are the ones "doing their own thing."
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« Reply #189 on: March 18, 2008, 09:35:54 PM »

I don't care what you all say--I LOVE Halloween! I'm past the taste for trick-or-treating. I go broke at the haunted houses they have all over the place instead! It's a blast to be scared and to scare! It all has to do with intention here, people! There is no maliciousness behind my acts of scaring, even with the blood, body parts, fangs, etc. Satan and his Merry Band of Losers intend to do harm to us, to drive us away from Christ time and time again. Halloween is just one silly night...or week, depending on where you are! Wink
Afterwards, life goes back to normal. Anyways, even if I were to dress up as a brain-eating bloody-chinned zombie, Jesus can see into my soul. He sees I care about people.
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All are tempted, but it is the courageous person who clings to God during the storm. For the Ego is a prison, but Christ is the Liberator
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« Reply #190 on: March 19, 2008, 09:12:25 AM »

^Yeah, but you may not see the effect you have on people.  I remember going trick-or-treating and having some guy with a Jason-style hockey mask and a *real* chainsaw jump out of his house and follow me (at a safe distance, but safe distance means nothing when you're little and scared to death).  It still freaks me out to think about it.  For some people, fear is not an enjoyable thing.
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« Reply #191 on: March 19, 2008, 05:31:17 PM »

E of K, whoever dressed up as Jason to scare you when you were little didn't have all his pork and beans in one can. I believe that certain aspects of Halloween must be toned down for those that are very impressionable. However, parents and friends should explain that the holiday is suppose to be celebrated for pure, silly fun. If necessary, those that dress up as scary themes should be made to take off their masks for those that might believe they're real.
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We all have a Black Dog and a White Dog inside of us. The One you feed the most eventually eats the Other.

All are tempted, but it is the courageous person who clings to God during the storm. For the Ego is a prison, but Christ is the Liberator
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« Reply #192 on: March 20, 2008, 04:30:03 PM »

^ You're right about the guy being off his rocker, but I completely disagree with you about forcing people to celebrate in a certain way. Obviously we must have laws against threatening or destructive behavior, but forcing someone to reveal their identity ought never be a law. That's a can of worms if ever I've seen one.
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« Reply #193 on: July 23, 2008, 10:41:41 AM »

I need not waste my time or anyone elses describing the history of Halloween since there are plenty of internet sources that outline its extremely satanic origins and continuation today.

I would like anyone who is curious to consider the following.

Halloween continues to be an activity in Public Schools (funded by our taxes). The Public School system has chosen to seperate EDUCATION from RELIGION and in most cases, the teaching of Christianity (no, Christmas with Santa Claus or Easter with the Easter Bunny is not Christianity) is prohibited! But Halloween (which is celebrated by the Witchraft practitioners - Wiccans - and Satanists, and YES! Freemasons) is permitted to be propagated in the Public School system. It is not a commercial holiday, although commercialism benefits greatly from this "holiday". You have to ask yourself, if Christianity is not allowed to be taught in Public Schools, why do Educators allow Halloween to be promoted along with, in recent years, Wiccans to speak about their "religion" to young children as if to educate them about Halloween?

Everyones tax dollars are being used to tolerate Halloween and to discriminate against Christianity.

Think about it.
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DanM
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« Reply #194 on: July 23, 2008, 11:38:19 AM »

I need not waste my time or anyone elses describing the history of Halloween since there are plenty of internet sources that outline its extremely satanic origins and continuation today.

The remotest origins of Halloween lie in the construction of the Pantheon in Rome by Agrippa
(27 BC).  The burning of this building was remedied by Hadrian (125).
Hadrian's structure was donated to Pope Boniface IV in 609 by the emperor Phocas; Boniface
dedicated it to Santa Maria et Martyres and ordered the anniversary of its commemoration and
its patrons to be observed on May 13.
When Pope Gregory III dedicated a chapel in St. Peter's to all the saints (731?), he transferred Boniface's
expanded celebration to the day on which he dedicated his chapel, the now infamous November 1.
So, unlike a number of other Christian feasts, Halloween started off Christian.
The gruesome aspects of Halloween are as far as I can tell strictly American in character.  There are a
number of European and more specifically Celtic or English customs involved in Halloween, but the
nasty stuff is all ours. 
In particular, there is a great deal of rubbish in circulation regarding Samhain and the origins of
Halloween.  Samhain is of course a kind of harvest-home festival held on 1 November (although it can
also be an Irish hero whose magical cow was stolen); the stuff about how we are worshipping the
Lord of the Dead is silly.  Even a great deal of the straight-faced talk about Halloween is nonsense. 
Mumming is definitely a British habit, connected with Halloween and Christmas; to insist that the
masked children are warding off evil spirits etc. is the same kind of loose talk that produces Freudians
and Jungians.  We simply cannot know why certain customs were performed after so many centuries--
only that the people performing them enjoy them or at any rate prefer to perpetuate them.
DanM
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« Reply #195 on: July 23, 2008, 02:29:48 PM »

I need not waste my time or anyone elses describing the history of Halloween since there are plenty of internet sources that outline its extremely satanic origins and continuation today.

I would like anyone who is curious to consider the following.

Halloween continues to be an activity in Public Schools (funded by our taxes). The Public School system has chosen to seperate EDUCATION from RELIGION and in most cases, the teaching of Christianity (no, Christmas with Santa Claus or Easter with the Easter Bunny is not Christianity) is prohibited! But Halloween (which is celebrated by the Witchraft practitioners - Wiccans - and Satanists, and YES! Freemasons) is permitted to be propagated in the Public School system. It is not a commercial holiday, although commercialism benefits greatly from this "holiday". You have to ask yourself, if Christianity is not allowed to be taught in Public Schools, why do Educators allow Halloween to be promoted along with, in recent years, Wiccans to speak about their "religion" to young children as if to educate them about Halloween?

Everyones tax dollars are being used to tolerate Halloween and to discriminate against Christianity.

Think about it.
As a teacher, I can vouch for the fact that most of what you have written here is based on gross misconceptions of reality and logical errors.

The teaching of Christianity is not prohibited, only proselytism and coerced practice of Christianity. Students are free to pray, read Scripture, whatever in school, but teachers must not make Christian practice part of the curriculum. We cannot lead the students in prayer or any such thing. But I myself teach many Christian practices as part of my Spanish classes, under the curriculum objective of learning about Latino culture. Our history teachers teach the history of Christianity as part of world history, and of the history of Christianity in the U.S. as part of American history.

Religion is by no means taboo in schools, but it must be taught, as must everything else, as part of a valid curricular objective. If the students aren't learning anything related to the curriculum, what's the point in teaching it?

Schools do teach civic duty, and part of that is engaging in our civic holidays. We celebrate Labor Day, Columbus Day, Thanksgiving, Christmas, Dr. Martin Luther King Day and Presidents' Day (and Memorial Day and Independence Day during summer school) by closing the school, as does every government office. Beyond that, we do celebrate other holidays in accordance with our community. Halloween, Valentine's Day, St. Patrick's Day, and Easter are some prime examples.

We want our children to grow up in a community, and part of being a community is doing things together. These celebrations are important to our culture, and therefore they are important to the school. Teachers are by no means conspirators to your children's destruction; we care more than almost anyone else about their well-being.

That said, I'm all for education, and I'm always willing to learn myself. So if you can show me some research on how drawing pumpkins in art class creates psychopaths, I'm more than willing to listen.
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« Reply #196 on: July 23, 2008, 02:37:21 PM »

Greetings in Christ DanM,

Disinformation aside, I am speaking of those valid sites (users discretion of course) that trace the pagan components from Rome, to the British Isles from which Druidry is a component.

There is no disinformation in the symbols used in Halloween and the theme of "darkness" and "evil". I am not discussing sensationalistic theories, but practical and probable facts that link Halloween to beliefs and practices that are contrary to the teachings of the Orthodox Church.

Historical examples aside, just look at WHO has infiltrated the so-called innocence of Halloween! Wiccans celebrate Halloween, and some Public Schools (at least in Toronto Canada) have had the audacity to invite Wiccans to discuss their beliefs and Halloweens relevance to them in front of impressionable youth. What this does is introduce children to alternate forms of spirituality, where supposedly, School and Religion is supposedto be seperate.

Do not forget that the "Church of Satan" founded by Anton LeVey also celebrates this "holiday" as part of its anti-Christian image!

You can pretend to make Halloween harmless and define it any way you wish, but its practices and origins are not Christian.

We can pretend we are not partaking in a Holiday celebrated by Witches and Satanists, and we can pretend that dressing up like Saints makes a difference, etc. etc. The point is millions of people partake in Halloween unwittingly subjecting themselves to harmful spiritual imagery and spirituality!

To defend Halloween in a Christian context is not possible without consequences.
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« Reply #197 on: July 23, 2008, 03:00:32 PM »


We want our children to grow up in a community, and part of being a community is doing things together. These celebrations are important to our culture, and therefore they are important to the school. Teachers are by no means conspirators to your children's destruction; we care more than almost anyone else about their well-being.

That said, I'm all for education, and I'm always willing to learn myself. So if you can show me some research on how drawing pumpkins in art class creates psychopaths, I'm more than willing to listen.

Community through Christ is priority, but because we live in a multicultural society, we are prohibited to find community through Christ. Therefore, secularism provides other venues. Halloween, in your opinion, is a method of building community. In secular terms this is true: children dressing up, neighbourhoods involved in handing out candies, parties, story telling, etc.

I'm sorry you feel it necessary to reduce my comments to and argument that implies I believe pumkins create psychopaths. However, if I provide you symbols, and you learn that these symbols are aligned with negative concepts and beliefs, this might rub off on you.

A monastic Elder once said "Your mind is like a mill. If you throw wheat down the shoot, out comes flour. But if you should throw in thorns, out comes a harmful substance"

You may believe that something harmless like a vegetable (a pumkin) cannot produce anything. But when children learn to assign meanings and definitions to objects and symbols, what went into their mind will be determined by what is expressed outwardly.

Small example: teens and their attraction to what is "gothic". Its not just a style, but an emotional expression.

As an educator, perhaps you are familiar with emotionalism in children?
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« Reply #198 on: July 23, 2008, 03:06:43 PM »

ytterbiumanalyst

Where you said other holidays are practiced (Valentines Day, Christmas etc.)

I do believe I indicated that Santa Claus is not a Christian belief, but this is permitted as an expression of Christmas in the public school to misinform children.

Valentines Day? I urge you (as an educator) to learn the very pagan holiday that everyone has been told is a Christian day of "love".

Easter? Last I checked, the Easter Bunny was not crucified for our sins.


So please do not assume I'm some sort of fanatic when clearly your arguments against me are based on sweeping generalizations against Christianity and what I actualy posted.
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« Reply #199 on: July 23, 2008, 04:39:52 PM »

Community through Christ is priority, but because we live in a multicultural society, we are prohibited to find community through Christ.
Wow--I'm sorry you live in such an oppressive society. Come on downstairs; over here, we have freedom of religion and assembly written right into our Constitution. We are freely allowed to find community through Christ.

Quote
Therefore, secularism provides other venues. Halloween, in your opinion, is a method of building community. In secular terms this is true: children dressing up, neighbourhoods involved in handing out candies, parties, story telling, etc.
Yep. Therefore, secular Halloween celebrations are no more harmful than New Years' celebrations or Independence Day celebrations. Proper precautions must be taken for safety's sake, but provided they are, why not have some fun?

Quote
I'm sorry you feel it necessary to reduce my comments to and argument that implies I believe pumkins create psychopaths. However, if I provide you symbols, and you learn that these symbols are aligned with negative concepts and beliefs, this might rub off on you.
I deny that there is any such thing as a "negative concept or belief." Is there anything which God cannot use? We pray, "O Heavenly King, the Comforter, the Spirit of Truth, Who art everywhere and fillest all things." Do we believe this? The Holy Spirit is present even in Halloween, and can use even the symbol of the pumpkin to bring people to Him.

Quote
A monastic Elder once said "Your mind is like a mill. If you throw wheat down the shoot, out comes flour. But if you should throw in thorns, out comes a harmful substance"

You may believe that something harmless like a vegetable (a pumkin) cannot produce anything. But when children learn to assign meanings and definitions to objects and symbols, what went into their mind will be determined by what is expressed outwardly.

Small example: teens and their attraction to what is "gothic". Its not just a style, but an emotional expression.

As an educator, perhaps you are familiar with emotionalism in children?
Absolutely. And most children get over the Gothic stage fairly quickly. The fascination with death may seem disturbing, but usually it's just a way of proclaiming self-identity that accompanies adolescence. The child, having always been identified as her parents' daughter, wants now to be known on her own, as her own person, and finds in the Gothic subculture a way of doing so. She is now identified by her friends rather than her family. This is simply part of a natural progression which will eventually lead to an adult being identified as herself and not merely as part of a group.

One must never forget that children do not and cannot think as adults do. As they age, they get closer to adult thinking, but even teenagers do not see the world as adults see it. What may seem shocking to us may only be so because we are able to see the world more clearly than children do.
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« Reply #200 on: July 23, 2008, 04:46:00 PM »

I do believe I indicated that Santa Claus is not a Christian belief, but this is permitted as an expression of Christmas in the public school to misinform children.
No, he's not a Christian belief; he's a Christian saint.

Quote
Valentines Day? I urge you (as an educator) to learn the very pagan holiday that everyone has been told is a Christian day of "love".
Perhaps you allude to Lupercalia, a Roman festival to the fertility god Faunus, which began on February 15?

Quote
Easter? Last I checked, the Easter Bunny was not crucified for our sins.
Hmm. If you think Easter has anything to do with the Easter Bunny, perhaps your understanding of Christianity is not what I had thought it was.

Quote
So please do not assume I'm some sort of fanatic when clearly your arguments against me are based on sweeping generalizations against Christianity and what I actualy posted.
Oh, I don't assume you're a fanatic; I just burn your straw men.
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« Reply #201 on: July 23, 2008, 05:39:07 PM »

I need not waste my time or anyone elses describing the history of Halloween since there are plenty of internet sources that outline its extremely satanic origins and continuation today.

I do not think it would be a waste of your time to go back and read the first four pages of this thread. The internet is the world's greatest purveyor of misinformation, and it is a tremendous enabler for the hysterical to promote their screeds in spite of any evidence arrayed against them.

It keeps coming down to the same thing: the connection between current Hallowe'en practices and any pagan antecedents is at very best tenuous; at worst it is closer to a complete fabrication. We do it as an act of charity and fellowship to our neighborhood, and therefore, that is what it is.
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« Reply #202 on: July 23, 2008, 05:49:42 PM »

Thank you, Keble, for being the voice of reason and sanity (no offense meant to anyone else!)!
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« Reply #203 on: August 08, 2008, 10:17:27 AM »

While people may disagree with my anti-Halloween views, and argue the historical connections between Halloween and paganism, I can however offer as advice the following.

Wiccans celebrate Halloween. So do Satanists. Even Freemasonry has set aside this 'holiday' for themselves.

While so many Orthodox are against modern ecumenism, they fail to see how Halloween is part of modern ecumenism in terms of participating in a holiday that Orthodoxy has nothing to do with.

People can define Halloween as harmless but this is only used as an excuse to partake in it. Halloween is taken very seriously by Wiccans and Satanists who laugh at Christian hypocrisy whereby Halloween is celebrated and justified as a 'Christian' celebration.

Last I checked, All Saints is not Nov 1 and therefore All-Hallows-Eve is not Orthodox.

Halloween is a perfect example of people justifying their own preferances against God. People can argue the historical arguments but not the present day arguments that reveal that Halloween is satanic since it is celebrated by Witches and devil worshippers today.
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« Reply #204 on: August 08, 2008, 10:53:50 AM »

^ You can certainly have your opinion. If your opinion is that you should not celebrate it, then don't. The rest of us who feel no such restriction will celebrate it, but we will not pressure you into doing the same. St. Paul discusses this at length in I Corinthians 8.

You are correct that it is not an Orthodox holiday, but neither is Independence Day or New Year's Day, so those of us who categorize trick-or-treating with fireworks displays and beating pots at midnight see no problem with celebrating what we consider a civic holiday. Those who see Halloween as a religious holiday have no reason to celebrate it, since it has nothing to do with Orthodoxy. In that case, it should probably not be celebrated, since it would be tantamount to celebrating a feast of another religion.

So it's all in how you look at it. Each one should check his own conscience and decide whether it is appropriate. But I do not believe that this is an issue on which we need to be dogmatic.
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« Reply #205 on: August 08, 2008, 12:38:03 PM »

1.  Historical examples aside, just look at WHO has infiltrated the so-called innocence of Halloween! Wiccans ... "Church of Satan" ...
2.  You can pretend to make Halloween harmless and define it any way you wish, but its practices and origins are not Christian.
3.  The point is millions of people partake in Halloween unwittingly subjecting themselves to harmful spiritual imagery and spirituality!

1.  The fact that Wiccans and the so-called "Church of Satan" celebrate Halloween does not mean that Halloween is their special feast.  There are of course Christians who do not celebrate Christmas because they discovered its pagan origins; they point to Satanists who regard us as hijacking their feast.  Shall we dis-observe Christmas in order to preserve our purity?
(On this subject, so much of what we assume to be normative has taken form relatively late in the day.  I have often wondered what it was like for the first generations of Christians who did not have our elaborate scheme of fasts, our dizzying number of feasts, our sumptuous monastic civilizations, our incredibly detailed--yet never detailed enough--canon laws.  What on earth did they do in their spare time?  One is tempted to wonder if they resembled early Protestants or neo-Primitive Methodists, yet Ignatius, Clement et al. give no such impression.)
2.  When you say that Halloween was not a Christian feast, which of the the facts I alleged in my earlier post are you able to debunk:  was the Pantheon was built by Agrippa in 27 BC or not?  Was it rebuilt by Hadrian or not?  Was it dedicated as a church to Santa Maria et Martyres by Pope Boniface IV in 609 with an attached foundation feast or not?  Was it expanded from All Martyrs to All Saints by Pope Gregory III in the early 8th century and moved to November 1 or not?  Unless these facts can be challenged by recourse to generally accepted evidence--Chick publications are out!--I do not see how it is possible for anyone to maintain seriously that Halloween is not a Christian feast in its origins. 
As for its practices, there are too many spread across Europe to speak with any certainty.  However, it seems to me that to assume that since we do not understand a given custom does not furnish us grounds for assuming a diabolical origins or significance.  I recall that the spells said to be used by certain "witches" were once examined and found to be (slightly garbled?) blessings preserved in Latin from the Middle Ages.  This reminds us to be cautious about giving to the Devil more than his due.
3.  I do believe that we Americans have corrupted Halloween with loads of diabolical baggage via commercial means.  This Satanization is recent enough, but truly we should not blame Halloween for our own evil desires. 
DanM

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« Reply #206 on: August 08, 2008, 02:57:02 PM »

While people may disagree with my anti-Halloween views, and argue the historical connections between Halloween and paganism, I can however offer as advice the following.

Wiccans celebrate Halloween. So do Satanists. Even Freemasonry has set aside this 'holiday' for themselves.

While so many Orthodox are against modern ecumenism, they fail to see how Halloween is part of modern ecumenism in terms of participating in a holiday that Orthodoxy has nothing to do with.

People can define Halloween as harmless but this is only used as an excuse to partake in it. Halloween is taken very seriously by Wiccans and Satanists who laugh at Christian hypocrisy whereby Halloween is celebrated and justified as a 'Christian' celebration.

Last I checked, All Saints is not Nov 1 and therefore All-Hallows-Eve is not Orthodox.

Halloween is a perfect example of people justifying their own preferances against God. People can argue the historical arguments but not the present day arguments that reveal that Halloween is satanic since it is celebrated by Witches and devil worshippers today.

I agree with you 100%

Unfortunately your concern for those who love this "observance" may not net you much or change the hearts of this type of person.

People make there own choices.

You are right...Halloween is wickedness. Evil (as always) focuses on the innocent; the very essence that God loves which we find in our children.

The Lord asked us to be like our children as a means of obtaining eternal life. We instead engage our innocent children in worldly lusts and aspirations. Our kids know more about the "easter bunny" and "rudolph the red nose reindeer" than about Jesus Christ.

It is shameful indeed.

As people by nature we are drawn to make our kids "happy". So then that is what matters the most.

A kid who can not participate in halloween activities will certainly grow up with a feeling of being deprived. This is difficult for people to deal with; including myself.

It seems we need to decide which we are more affraid of our kids or our God. That is my opinion of course.

halloween may not be satanic as I know it to be. What I know may about this upside down celebration may be wrong.

May be it is perfectly good!

It may just be this "cute day of fun and candy and masquerade and so on.

Seems harmless to me!

But where I am coming form here is far, more than just halloween.

Orthodox mentallity is the main issue for me. Not simply wether halloween is good or not.

As an orthodox I refuse to allow myself or anyone I am responsible for to engage in popular culture in general because as a Christians and orthodox we are suppose to be UP ROOTIN ourselves from the world as well as our children; like our father Abraham who left all he knew to follow God including his way of life; his father and relatives.....everything ws left behind.

WE are new in Christ. Thus each of us a are an "Abraham". WE knowlonger hunger for the ways of old nor the ways of the world. WE loathe the world and its ways. WE are like the angels of heaven who are preoccupied only with obedience to God and everything that is filled with HIS holiness; worshipping HIM day and night without end. WE are waiting for HIM to return. WE have already packed and are ready to go......

This is the lifestyle we are striving for as orthodox.

Of course this means the company we keep and traditions we embrace will be very specific just by natural selection.

You can rest assure with this holy lifestyle we will not find ourselves hob-nobbing with wiccins or devil worshippers or some other kind of Godless element even if only by accident; without intention since we were only at the 'hallowen gatherings and activities' for very sincere and non-religious resasons...you know; for the kids! or being with "the family" or because we 'know' that the halloween practice is ok.

Well it may be OK; but many people in this dead world want us to think just that. They love the world and love secularism, liberalism, materialism. Some also consider all these and more as a religion. They worship life this way. They like for us (orthodox) to play along with them....be like them....become them.

The people you meet at the hallowen store you will not meet at the orthodox book store or orthodox feast...EVER! for NO reason....PERIOD!

They have no interest in looking like, playing along with or becoming orthodox...PERIOD!

WE are stuck trying top look like orthodox on our own.

Oh! Uhm....What does an orthodox look like anyway? Maybe we can discuss this at another time.

But they will look for us and our kids each year.

The world is corrupted and has nothing to offer us who are aware of these seemingly innocent simple acts of "culture" that play out in our long list of sins and fall from grace.

halloween is a day for the dead.

I do not expect many to respect that.

I am just glad I know it.

Let us always pray for each other.



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« Reply #207 on: August 08, 2008, 06:08:31 PM »

1.  Zarabas:  Wiccans celebrate Halloween. So do Satanists.
DanM:  The fact that Wiccans etc. celebrate Halloween is irrelevant.  If they celebrate Thanksgiving or Christmas, does that mean we have to give those feasts up?  Of course not! 

2.  Zarabas:  Last I checked, All Saints is not Nov 1 and therefore All-Hallows-Eve is not Orthodox.
DanM:  The word Halloween is a compression of [All] Hallows Even.  Hallows is an older English word for saints.  The feast ordained by Pope Gregory III was 1 November, so October 31 would be what we Orthodox are wont to call the pre-feast.
I have so far argued that Halloween has Christian origins.  Nevertheless, you are correct that Halloween is not stricto sensu Orthodox, since we have a different All Hallows feast.

3.  Zarabas:  People can argue the historical arguments but not the present day arguments that reveal that Halloween is satanic since it is celebrated by Witches and devil worshippers today.
DanM:  If any feast may be enslaved by Satanists merely by being celebrated by them, what stops them from hijacking every single feast of our faith by establishing a mock-feast? 

4.  Zarabas:  Halloween is taken very seriously by Wiccans and Satanists.
DanM:  But I do not take them seriously.  They do not know history.

Please believe, y'all, that if anyone can prove any of the facts I have adduced are false, I will be very grateful.  The facts I mean are as follows:
(1)  The Pantheon was built by Agrippa.
(2)  It was rebuilt by Hadrian.
(3)  It was dedicated to Santa Maria et Martyres by Pope Boniface IV in 609 with an attached foundation feast celebrating all martyrs.
(4)  That feast was transfered by Pope Gregory III to November 1 on the occasion of dedicating a chapel in St. Peter's to All Saints.
If you do not debunk these facts, it does not do any good to debate the origins of Halloween:  these four facts are the foundations of my argument.  If you only allege that Satanists etc. observe Halloween, you allege nothing that disturbs my foundational arguments.  If you can disprove (3) and (more crucially) (4), the entire edifice of my indifference to pilfering neo-pagans crashes to the ground.  I assure you that you will find it next to impossible if you use the sort of sources generally admitted to be unimpeachable. 
DanM


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« Reply #208 on: August 08, 2008, 08:04:27 PM »

Do any Orthodox Churches perform Vespers before All Saints Day?

A 6 PM Vespers Service would be a good excuse not to do anything related to Halloween.  Wink

Well, the GOA calendar doesn't recognize All Saints Day as occurring on November 1.  November 1 is the Feast Day of St. Raphael of Brooklyn - a Saint who lived in 20th Century America just as St. Nektarios lived in 20th Century Greece
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« Reply #209 on: August 09, 2008, 09:01:10 AM »

^ Yes, for us All Saints' Day is the Sunday following Pascha.
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« Reply #210 on: August 09, 2008, 11:23:43 AM »

Do any Orthodox Churches perform Vespers before All Saints Day?

A 6 PM Vespers Service would be a good excuse not to do anything related to Halloween.  Wink

Well, the GOA calendar doesn't recognize All Saints Day as occurring on November 1.  November 1 is the Feast Day of St. Raphael of Brooklyn - a Saint who lived in 20th Century America just as St. Nektarios lived in 20th Century Greece

A common theory explaining the invention of Christmas (and other feasts) is illustrated by the above exchange:  since certain Christians wanted to continue customs associated with the Saturnalia and Sol Invictus (or Mithras?) on 25 December, the church fathers established a nativity feast of Our Lord in order to give them a reason to go to church.  Julianus Africanus was apparently the first Christian scholar to propose 25 December, which was already a feast for the virgin-born Mithras (maybe the Roman decision to make 25 Dec. the official winter solstice was influenced by eastern custom); at any rate, neo-pagans ridicule Christians for maintaining what in its origins was a pagan festival in the form of Christmas (bully for them!).  If history repeats itself, though, what will happen to the feast of St. Raphael is that children will celebrate St. Raphael's pre-feast by trick-or-treating etc.  This is what seems to have happened to the nativity--the customs of the Saturnalia and (I think) of the (new) New Year's were tacked on to Christmas.  For what it's worth, when Augustine, bishop of Hippo Regius, drew up his calendar of major feasts, Christmas was not even listed; whether it was too recent or too trivial, I do not know. 

I must say that I am disappointed by the absence of response to my challenge to the anti-Halloween partisans.  Is it possible that our convictions sometimes outpace the relevant facts, so that facts seem rather rude when introduced into discussion?  Or maybe people are researching the matter patiently to uncover the evidence of my errors? 
If it matters, I am not pro-Halloween--just not anti-Halloween.
DanM
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« Reply #211 on: August 09, 2008, 12:58:40 PM »

^ Yes, for us All Saints' Day is the Sunday following Pentecost Pascha.

I think you meant Pentecost rather than Pascha.  All Saints' Day fell on June 22 this year...
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« Reply #212 on: August 09, 2008, 01:03:43 PM »

^^^^I amend my question to ask if Greek Catholics hold Vespers Services on Halloween?

The West decided to celebrate All Saints' Day on November 1 instead of the Sunday after Pentecost making Halloween like the Vespers/Vigil Service.  From the Catholic Encyclopedia article for All Saint's Day.

Quote
Gregory III (731-741) consecrated a chapel in the Basilica of St. Peter to all the saints and fixed the anniversary for 1 November. A basilica of the Apostles already existed in Rome, and its dedication was annually remembered on 1 May. Gregory IV (827-844) extended the celebration on 1 November to the entire Church.
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« Reply #213 on: August 09, 2008, 02:05:21 PM »

I think you meant Pentecost rather than Pascha.  All Saints' Day fell on June 22 this year...
I wrote Pascha? I must not have been awake yet....

Thanks for catching that.
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« Reply #214 on: August 09, 2008, 02:24:28 PM »

^ Mr. Y, You're welcome.  Wink
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« Reply #215 on: August 09, 2008, 09:03:26 PM »

A common theory explaining the invention of Christmas (and other feasts) is illustrated by the above exchange:  since certain Christians wanted to continue customs associated with the Saturnalia and Sol Invictus (or Mithras?) on 25 December, the church fathers established a nativity feast of Our Lord in order to give them a reason to go to church.  Julianus Africanus was apparently the first Christian scholar to propose 25 December, which was already a feast for the virgin-born Mithras (maybe the Roman decision to make 25 Dec. the official winter solstice was influenced by eastern custom); at any rate, neo-pagans ridicule Christians for maintaining what in its origins was a pagan festival in the form of Christmas (bully for them!).  If history repeats itself, though, what will happen to the feast of St. Raphael is that children will celebrate St. Raphael's pre-feast by trick-or-treating etc.  This is what seems to have happened to the nativity--the customs of the Saturnalia and (I think) of the (new) New Year's were tacked on to Christmas.  For what it's worth, when Augustine, bishop of Hippo Regius, drew up his calendar of major feasts, Christmas was not even listed; whether it was too recent or too trivial, I do not know. 

Dan,

I am under the impression that the 25th December, the Natalis Solis Invicti (Birthday of the Invincible Sun), was chosen in the West as the anniversay of Christ's birth because it was seen as a foreshadowing of the birth of Christ Victor. St Cyprian declared that this "anniversary of the invincible" was made actual in Christ's birth; the only invincible one and the Sun of Justice. Christ is also referred to as the Sun of Righteousness in Malachi.
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« Reply #216 on: August 09, 2008, 11:18:09 PM »

^ December 25 is the date of Christmas in the East, too (on the Old Calendar Dec. 25 falls on Jan. 7 of the New, but it's still Dec. 25 according to that calendar).
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« Reply #217 on: August 10, 2008, 04:29:04 AM »

^ December 25 is the date of Christmas in the East, too (on the Old Calendar Dec. 25 falls on Jan. 7 of the New, but it's still Dec. 25 according to that calendar).

Yes, but I think that the date was first celebrated in the West; picked for some of the reasons I mentioned. At least, that's what I understand, but I could be wrong.  Grin
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« Reply #218 on: August 10, 2008, 10:27:22 AM »

I am under the impression that the 25th December, the Natalis Solis Invicti (Birthday of the Invincible Sun), was chosen in the West as the anniversay of Christ's birth because it was seen as a foreshadowing of the birth of Christ Victor.

Thanks for the Cyprianic quote. 
Can we say which came first--the symbolism of the date chosen or the need for the celebration of Christ's nativity? 
I am very sure that Mithras and Sol were celebrated because 25 March was a winter solstice date.  But why celebrate the nativity at all? According to the Monk of the Eastern Church, "the first signs of this celebration come from Egypt" about 200.  But they picked May 20.  Cappadocian Christians used 25 December (Nyssa), whereas Jerusalem had no Christmas until the 6th cent.  These and other pieces of evidence indicate a very uneven attitude towards the Nativity.  What we would like to know, above all, is the motivation for Christmas in Egypt and why May 20?  Very puzzling.
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« Reply #219 on: August 10, 2008, 12:12:20 PM »

Thanks for the Cyprianic quote. 
Can we say which came first--the symbolism of the date chosen or the need for the celebration of Christ's nativity? 
I am very sure that Mithras and Sol were celebrated because 25 March was a winter solstice date.  But why celebrate the nativity at all? According to the Monk of the Eastern Church, "the first signs of this celebration come from Egypt" about 200.  But they picked May 20.  Cappadocian Christians used 25 December (Nyssa), whereas Jerusalem had no Christmas until the 6th cent.  These and other pieces of evidence indicate a very uneven attitude towards the Nativity.  What we would like to know, above all, is the motivation for Christmas in Egypt and why May 20?  Very puzzling.
DanM

wow...that's pretty interesting.  What's the sources the Monk used?
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« Reply #220 on: August 10, 2008, 01:42:54 PM »

I need not waste my time or anyone elses describing the history of Halloween since there are plenty of internet sources that outline its extremely satanic origins and continuation today.

I would like anyone who is curious to consider the following.

Halloween continues to be an activity in Public Schools (funded by our taxes). The Public School system has chosen to seperate EDUCATION from RELIGION and in most cases, the teaching of Christianity (no, Christmas with Santa Claus or Easter with the Easter Bunny is not Christianity) is prohibited! But Halloween (which is celebrated by the Witchraft practitioners - Wiccans - and Satanists, and YES! Freemasons) is permitted to be propagated in the Public School system. It is not a commercial holiday, although commercialism benefits greatly from this "holiday". You have to ask yourself, if Christianity is not allowed to be taught in Public Schools, why do Educators allow Halloween to be promoted along with, in recent years, Wiccans to speak about their "religion" to young children as if to educate them about Halloween?

Everyones tax dollars are being used to tolerate Halloween and to discriminate against Christianity.

Think about it.

It's become a day for kids to dress in silly costumes and eat candy. Relax.
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« Reply #221 on: August 10, 2008, 07:34:48 PM »

wow...that's pretty interesting.  What's the sources the Monk used?

He does not cite them.  However, this chequered pattern conforms to what I have read elsewhere.
I am not near a research library, but The New Schaff-Herzog corroborates the Monk in outline and provides some nice if dated references (http://www.ccel.org/ccel/schaff/encyc03/Page_47.html).  NewAdvent.org supplies an article from the old Catholic Encyclopedia that throws even more confusion with the riot of details (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/03724b.htm).  In particular, we have

"In view of a reaction to certain Jewish rites and feasts, Chrysostom tries to unite Antioch in celebrating Christ's birth on 25 December, part of the community having already kept it on that day for at least ten years. In the West, he says, the feast was thus kept, anothen; its introduction into Antioch he had always sought, conservatives always resisted . This time he was successful; in a crowded church he defended the new custom. It was no novelty; from Thrace to Cadiz this feast was observed -- rightly, since its miraculously rapid diffusion proved its genuineness. Besides, Zachary, who, as high-priest, entered the Temple on the Day of Atonement, received therefore announcement of John's conception in September; six months later Christ was conceived, i.e. in March, and born accordingly in December."  [Emphasis added.]

I wish I could recall what I had read about the origins of the Annunciation--it rocked my little boat. 
Also,

"Pope Leo I (Serm. xxxvii in nat. dom., VII, 4; xxii, II, 6 in P. L., LIV, 218 and 198) bitterly reproves solar survivals — Christians, on the very doorstep of the Apostles' basilica, turn to adore the rising sun. Sun-worship has bequeathed features to modern popular worship in Armenia, where Christians had once temporarily and externally conformed to the cult of the material sun (Cumont, op. cit., p. 356)."

But the Sol Invictus is a pretty recent innovation on the part of the Roman emperors.  The Armenians, who felt no need to ape anybody, never went along with the 25 December date, and still emphasize the Theophany more than the birth--just as the Nestorian Church of the East never recognized the Apocalypse of St. John.  (The connection of the divine nativity and Theophany is illustrated by the fact that we cannot always tell whether certain sermons are for Christmas or Theophany.)

Finally,

"Should a deliberate and legitimate 'baptism' of a pagan feast be seen here no more than the transference of the date need be supposed. The 'mountain-birth' of Mithra and Christ's in the "grotto" have nothing in common: Mithra's adoring shepherds (Cumont, op. cit., I, ii, 4, p. 304 sqq.) are rather borrowed from Christian sources than vice versa."

The latter observation is a warning to the hapless!
The refs. of the Catholic Encyclopedia should provide enough for a pretty detailed paper. 
Good hunting.
DanM

PS.  Is anyone near a seminary able to locate a paper which sketches out the pagan origins of as many Christian feasts as are still celebrated?  It would be nice to have it all in one place so that I do not have to hunt high and low.
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« Reply #222 on: August 10, 2008, 08:22:51 PM »

Besides, Zachary, who, as high-priest, entered the Temple on the Day of Atonement, received therefore announcement of John's conception in September; six months later Christ was conceived, i.e. in March, and born accordingly in December."
St. Zachary was not the High Priest and nor was the Feast on which he offered incense in the Temple Yom Kipppur (The Day of Atonement).
The Gospel of Luke tells us that "the lot fell" on Zachary (Luke 1:8 ) to offer incense in the Temple. However, on the Day of Atonement, all priestly functions were performed by the High Priest alone, and lots were not drawn among the other Priests, nor were the priestly roles rotated for that day. Only the High Priest could enter the Holy of Holies and offer incense on Yom Kippur, and the office of High Priest was hereditary and held for life.
However, "offering incense in the Temple" does not necessarily mean entering the Holy Of Holies which the High Priest did only once a year on Yom Kippur. The "Altar of Incense" in the Temple of Solomon actually stood outside of the Holy of Holies, and any priest whose turn it was would offer incense at it on Feast days. The fact that "the lot fell" on Zacharias to offer incense means that it could not have been the Feast of Yom Kippur (the Day of Atonement), since lots were not drawn for that day. So the first clue to which Feast it may have been is the fact that "the lot fell" on Zachary. Clearly it was not the Day of Atonement.
The other clues as to which feast it may have been are also in the Gospel of Luke. It was a Feast in which "the multitude of the people was praying outside" (Luke 1:10), so it was a major Feast, and it was a Feast which lasted more than one day (Luke 1:23).  The other clue is the fact that St. Zachary was struck mute after offering the incense  (Luke 1:20), and therefore would no longer be able to function as a Priest, yet we are told that St. Zachary "completed the days of his service" (Luke 1:23), so therefore he must have been struck mute on the last day of the Feast.
A Feast which would fit these criteria would be Sukkot (the Feast of  Tabernacles), the last day of which is called "Shemini Atseret" ("Solemn Assembly") in which "the multitude of the people" gathered at the Temple. The Feast of Sukkot begins on the Hebrew date of 15th day of the month of Tishrei, and it runs for a week. The 8th day is "Shemini Atseret". Sukkot was a harvest festival which was the last Feast of the last Month of the Jewish calendar- (quite a fitting day to announce the conception of last Prophet of the Old Testament and Forerunner of the New One!)
The last day of Sukkot ("Shemini Atseret" or "Solemn Assembly") falls on Tishrei 23rd (which was September 19th in 1BC according to the Julian calendar). The Orthodox Church commemorates the Conception of St. John the Baptist on September 23rd (and he is the only Saint apart from the Theotokos whose Conception is celebrated with a Feast). So it is possible that the Jewish date "Tishrei 23rd" was simply converted to "September 23rd". At any rate, Yom Kippur is celebrated on the 10th day of Tishrei, which in 1 BC corresponded to September 6th. So the theory that 23rd Tishrei (Shemini Atseret) as the Feast on which St. Zachary offered incense seems more likely.
We are then told in Luke 1:26 that that 6 months later (March 23rd if this theory is correct) the Annunciation of Christ was made to the Theotokos, which is celebrated  in the Church on March 25th. Nine months after this is December 25th (Christmas).
If you are as interested in calendars as the geek that I am, may I recommend downloading the freeware program "Kalendis" created by Dr. Irv Bromberg of the University of Toronto which allows you to convert between Hebrew, Julian, Gregorian Roman and various other calendar dates on a perpetual calendar.
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« Reply #223 on: August 10, 2008, 09:52:51 PM »

It's become a day for kids to dress in silly costumes and eat candy. Relax.

And the day after is the day when parents are trying to get their kids down from the ceiling because they are so hyped from eating all that sugar!  laugh
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« Reply #224 on: August 11, 2008, 02:40:20 AM »

Would everyone please keep the discussion on topic. Whoever wishes to discuss general calendar questions may ressurect an old thread on this issue or create a new one. 

Thank you. 

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