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Author Topic: Question about pre-marriage morality  (Read 6074 times) Average Rating: 0
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Seamus ODonnell
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« on: October 02, 2007, 12:03:30 AM »

 **If this subject is too frank or explicit, please let me know***

Well, here is a question I wasn't sure how to ask (or even if I should on an internet forum), but here goes. First some background info- My girlfriend and I have been dating for just over 2 1/2 years. She's Irish/American also AND comes from a semi-practicing Catholic family. In the past, we've been very intimate with one another but now, since becomming a Christian (still wrestling with that word), I'm feeling a little uneasy about being intimate with her. To put it a little more frank- neither of us are virgins. Yet I'm thinking we may want to slow down (or stop altogether) and wait until we're married before we resume. I'm nervous about speaking to her priest about this because I don't want to 'out' her to him (he doesn't really know me or my family so I'm not concerned about me.) In Orthodox Christianity, what constitutes 'immorality'? Is it OK to spend the night if there's no sexual contact? What about passionate embraces and kissing?
 I mentioned my thoughts to her and she didn't care for the idea. She explained that compromise is integral in a healthy, adult relationship and that it's OK to be intimate from time to time, even before marriage. Am I wrong to be questioning this? I'm honestly quite afraid that this could really damage our relationship.

 Thank you- Seamus
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« Reply #1 on: October 02, 2007, 12:23:49 AM »

Seamus:

Welcome.  First off. No one and I mean no one can throw stones at you - - - period.

If anyone does they are hypocrites.

You do not want to compromise your trust with your girlfriend. Possibly, you should discuss talking to your priest with her. I don't know how she'll take that. I don't know how well you know your priest and how well he'll respond.

I hope this helps but most of all  I wanted to convey to you that no one here has the right to judge you.
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« Reply #2 on: October 02, 2007, 02:07:00 AM »

To be totally honest with you, Seamus, I'm very happy that you trust us enough to share such intimate information with us, but I'm not sure an internet forum such as ours is even a good place to seek counsel on the issues you just brought to our attention.  I don't mean to sound dismissive, but I really think you and your girlfriend need to discuss these issues with your priest and seek his counsel.  The only counsel I would give you is this, you are doing absolutely nothing wrong to question your girlfriend's views of sexual intimacy in an adult relationship.

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« Reply #3 on: October 02, 2007, 03:48:53 AM »

Seamus having no authority on the subject I wouldn't dream on giving advice but I believe that some experienced posters not giving you direct advice but instead explaining the concept of sexuality in regard to Orthodoxy and pious behavior related to that or some teachings from the church about pre-marital relations. Also great to see that your bringing it up because it is an important issue in our modern times being pressured in to certain things but also how the subject is taboo and then it is sidelined and in the church it is hardly spoken about (at least in my church but I could be very wrong)
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« Reply #4 on: October 07, 2007, 02:58:43 PM »

Seamus,

I admire your efforts here.  While I am no expert on these matters, I would have to vote on the side of sexual purity before marriage as the goal. If you are feeling a conviction to change behavior I would listen to that as well.  If we are to reign in sexual passions even DURING marriage, as per fasting times, then it's not too far fetched to think we should remain pure beforehand.

Just my best educated guess, I myself am but a convert of just a few years.
Definitely talk to your priest on this matter, even if it does 'out' your lady.  That isn't your goal, but it can't be avoided. It used to be that the RC condemned pre marital sex, I wasn't aware that they completely did away with that sentiment.  So where your girl gets this theory of hers I have no idea.  I would say that is the secular world talking, and just because it says 'if it feels good do it" doesn't mean it's correct.
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« Reply #5 on: October 07, 2007, 04:36:30 PM »

Dear Seamus,

May I ask, why don't you two just go ahead and marry? You are 29, as your profile shows. So, you are not that young, it seems like a good time to tie the knot...

Sorry if this is too personal - ignore my question if it is.

In any case, my very, very best wishes to you and your girlfriend, may God grant both of you many years and happiness and salvation!

George
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« Reply #6 on: October 07, 2007, 04:52:42 PM »

Seamus,

I agree with PTA that discussion of this matter with your priest and your girlfriend is the BEST thing for you to do.  I'm in no place to give advice nor can I condemn you for being the horrible sinner that I am.  But if you allow the indulgence, I will tell you this.

My girlfriend and I have been together now for almost a year (anniversary on Oct 22; please pray for us).  Both of us came into this relationship with baggage that really could have undone us had we not persevered and fought temptation to go all the way.  Has it been easy?  Absolutely not.  I'm sure you can relate.  But let me say this.  My girlfriend and I have talked a lot about marriage and I do want to marry this woman, but we still have far to go in this relationship before we commit to it before God and receive the blessing of the HOly Orthodox Church.  We both know that if we succumb to temptation now, given both of our histories, we will have a hard time stopping.  We fear, and rightly so, that our relationship will become less of working on what we need to in order to grow in the faith and become more of a physical relationship.  I think, in today's society, most people in relationships sleep together and if the two work out in that dimension, they assume they are in love and everything will work out.  (Now I'm not saying this applies to you; this is just a personal observation).  My girlfriend and I wish to build our relationship on trust and the HOly Orthodox Faith.  Sex, especially now, will only screw that up.  (no pun intended there  Wink).

Again, my $.02.  I apologize to PTA if my response was more personal than needed and to anyone else who feels that the goings-on of my life are best kept to myself and you didn't want/need to hear them. However, Seamus, if you would like to discuss this more in detail then feel free to PM me.
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« Reply #7 on: October 07, 2007, 05:38:47 PM »

The traditional moral prohibitions on premarital-intercourse are derived from the assumption that it will be damaging to the relationship and by making it excessively physical take it out of its proper context...the sole purpose of marriage is not sex, not that sex is wrong, it's a good and wonderful thing, but a marriage needs to be more than that.

And, seamus, this is all good and proper; however, are in a particularly difficult position from that perspective. Because of the expectations that have developed, abstaining from sexual relations may have a substantially negative effect, negating any possible benefit. In such a difficult situation one cannot rely on abstract moral norms for some type of cure-all guidance. The details of the relationship, the expectations based on past experience, and the needs and wants of BOTH partners must be taken into account. I submit that no one, including your priest, is in a positoin to give an easy black and white answer to this (like many human relationships) complex situations. But, ultimately, you and your girlfriend are probably in the best situation to work this out between yourselves; just keep in mind, the solution doesn't have to be all or nothing, black and white, it could simply be a matter of emphasis in the relationship, for example a desire to place priority on improving the personal and spiritual aspects of the relationship, but a gradual move, not a sudden change in the terms of the relationship. Trust yourself, trust your partner, I'm sure whatever decision you two make will be the right one for your context and for your relationship.
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« Reply #8 on: October 07, 2007, 05:47:46 PM »

Justifying fornication...great  Roll Eyes
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« Reply #9 on: October 07, 2007, 05:55:43 PM »

Trust yourself, trust your partner, I'm sure whatever decision you two make will be the right one for your context and for your relationship.

Trusting in myself will only land myself in great trouble.  This I know for a fact. 
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« Reply #10 on: October 07, 2007, 05:57:47 PM »

Justifying fornication...great  Roll Eyes

Not exactly, but if that's what you're looking for, I've done it elsewhere...why not criticize my moral theology there? Here, I was simply commenting on the situation using proper pastoral sensibilities, acknowledging the difficulty of the situation and the limitations of abstract concepts; but it appears that this element of my post didn't register, probably because it fails to fit nicely into an overly simplistic black and white weltanschauung.

But I'm glad that your intimate knowledge of the situation is so precise that you are capable of applying abstract principles with full knowledge of the pastor implications of said concepts. Roll Eyes
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« Reply #11 on: October 07, 2007, 06:01:28 PM »

Yeah...whatever.
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« Reply #12 on: October 07, 2007, 07:45:29 PM »

greekchristian:

i am impressed by your answer as well as scam...'s answer. I beleive Seamus is trying to do the right thing by all which is commendable. I also echo Heorji  . . . why not just get married at this point?
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« Reply #13 on: October 07, 2007, 09:28:46 PM »

why not just get married at this point?
I agree, or at least become engaged, and then do whatever. As far as I can see, a "healthy" relationship is one in which partners know where they stand and where the relationship is going. If partners are not simply treating one another as objects to be used to relieve sexual tension, but rather, sex is a celebration and sign of a lifelong bond and commitment to one another, then why not make this concrete by confirming this commitment to a lifelong bond?
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« Reply #14 on: October 07, 2007, 09:31:50 PM »

I agree, or at least become engaged, and then do whatever. As far as I can see, a "healthy" relationship is one in which partners know where they stand and where the relationship is going. If partners are not simply treating one another as objects to be used to relieve sexual tension, but rather, sex is a celebration and sign of a lifelong bond and commitment to one another, then why not make this concrete by confirming this commitment to a lifelong bond?

That's exactly what I was trying to imply... thanks, OzG., for dotting the i's and crossing the t's. Smiley
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« Reply #15 on: October 07, 2007, 10:00:59 PM »

   I don't see anything wrong with an Orthodox Christian giving advice. We are all called to be preists of god. In the end it's Seamus who has to make his own decision.
  
   Your in a difficult position indeed Seamus. We all know that pre-marriage sex is wrong, including your girlfriend.
   Your basiclly scared of lossing her because you are cutting her off from sex. There is a good possiblity it will happen.
  When a wed couple cuts off there spouse they are cutting off there love. Sex is an expression of love. Unless it's a mutual decision there are problems. This is no different.
  You know her best. If she is marrage material than it's you who are procrastinating for whatever reason. If she isn't than you know what to do.
  




 
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« Reply #16 on: October 07, 2007, 10:29:07 PM »

Again, my $.02.  I apologize to PTA if my response was more personal than needed and to anyone else who feels that the goings-on of my life are best kept to myself and you didn't want/need to hear them. However, Seamus, if you would like to discuss this more in detail then feel free to PM me.
Hey, scamandrius, no need to apologize.  I'm not so much concerned about someone revealing "too much" information online, at least if it's not information that someone can use to identify you with criminal intent; I'm just of the opinion that an online discussion forum is often not the best place to seek advice on a deeply personal matter. Cool
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« Reply #17 on: October 07, 2007, 10:30:21 PM »

Seamus,

God wants you to save yourself for one woman in your life, to share yourself completely with her and her alone. Is this girl the one you want to give yourself to? If so, marry her. If not, wait until you know.

I would speak to your girlfriend about Catholic teaching about sexual morality. John Paul II's Theology of the Body is a good place to begin. The rules exist for a reason---and they are not really rules but a metaphysical reality. It's what God so lovingly made you for. Gently suggest to her to talk to her priest in confession. If you are uncomfortable having sexual relations with her, do not feel guilty about saying no. Abstinence will test your relationship---is it primarily physical or is it more complete than that?

God bless you, and I admire your honesty.
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« Reply #18 on: October 07, 2007, 10:44:41 PM »

Seamus,

God wants you to save yourself for one woman in your life, to share yourself completely with her and her alone. Is this girl the one you want to give yourself to? If so, marry her. If not, wait until you know.

I would speak to your girlfriend about Catholic teaching about sexual morality. John Paul II's Theology of the Body is a good place to begin. The rules exist for a reason---and they are not really rules but a metaphysical reality. It's what God so lovingly made you for. Gently suggest to her to talk to her priest in confession. If you are uncomfortable having sexual relations with her, do not feel guilty about saying no. Abstinence will test your relationship---is it primarily physical or is it more complete than that?

God bless you, and I admire your honesty.
lubeltri,

Considering that Seamus's girlfriend is a semi-practicing Catholic, I recognize his need to discuss the sexuality of their relationship from the pov of her RC faith tradition, as well, so I don't think your advice inappropriate for the context of this discussion.  But please be careful to remember that this Faith board is intended to be a forum for discussing the Orthodox Christian faith.  If you want to go into greater detail with the above advice, then please invite Seamus to join you on the Orthodox-Catholic board.  Thank you in advance for your cooperation.

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« Reply #19 on: October 07, 2007, 10:52:47 PM »

lubeltri,

Considering that Seamus's girlfriend is a semi-practicing Catholic, I recognize his need to discuss the sexuality of their relationship from the pov of her RC faith tradition, as well, so I don't think your advice inappropriate for the context of this discussion.  But please be careful to remember that this Faith board is intended to be a forum for discussing the Orthodox Christian faith.  If you want to go into greater detail with the above advice, then please invite Seamus to join you on the Orthodox-Catholic board.  Thank you in advance for your cooperation.

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No problem, Peter. I won't go into any more detail.
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« Reply #20 on: October 07, 2007, 11:44:36 PM »

The book say: No touchee.

The church say: No touchee.

What we do: Touchee.


Remember always that your priest is the best on advice for this.  However, the best piece of advice I was ever given was "If it aint done out of pure love or it's done out of pure lust, don't"  We all struggle with it.  But we thank God for His mercy, and we continue to fight the good fight with Him at our side.  God bless ya both.

Peace
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« Reply #21 on: October 09, 2007, 10:20:59 PM »


Ah, a new troll...at least you're entertaining. Welcome. Grin


I find the quoted material from the deleted post of a banned poster extremely offensive even days after this was posted--nothing against you, GiC.

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« Reply #22 on: October 09, 2007, 10:35:43 PM »

at least you're entertaining.
You really need to get out more GiC!
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« Reply #23 on: October 09, 2007, 10:51:01 PM »

You really need to get out more GiC!

Eh, those kinds of cheap shots at latin clergy are entertaining no matter who you are (unless you're a catholic priest, I suppose), and before you start telling me how offensive they are, the people I most often hear them from are catholics. Grin

Sounds like you're the one who needs to get out more, hate to be the one to break it to you, but your Bourgeoisie persona is not always the most entertaining...you need to learn to enjoy the humour of the lower classes. Wink
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« Reply #24 on: October 09, 2007, 11:00:19 PM »

Can we please keep this thread on topic?
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« Reply #25 on: October 09, 2007, 11:47:31 PM »


 I mentioned my thoughts to her and she didn't care for the idea. She explained that compromise is integral in a healthy, adult relationship and that it's OK to be intimate from time to time, even before marriage. Am I wrong to be questioning this? I'm honestly quite afraid that this could really damage our relationship.

 Thank you- Seamus

Most of the most pious women I knew as an evangelical, had no problem with sexual intimacy before marriage if they were deeply involved with you. I read saomewhere after becoming Orthodox that this is part of the "Eve Complex." -- if it feels right, do it.

It is ironic that we men feel more guilt about this.
Then again, maybe not.
Men are led by their hormones and we know that and that it is at worst, likely wrong and at best, selfish.
Women are lead by emotions, which are far more subtle and tricky
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« Reply #26 on: October 10, 2007, 12:10:17 AM »

Most of the most pious women I knew as an evangelical, had no problem with sexual intimacy before marriage if they were deeply involved with you. I read saomewhere after becoming Orthodox that this is part of the "Eve Complex." -- if it feels right, do it.

It is ironic that we men feel more guilt about this.
Then again, maybe not.
Men are led by their hormones and we know that and that it is at worst, likely wrong and at best, selfish.
Women are lead by emotions, which are far more subtle and tricky

 It seems that you're right on target here. Although both traits are found in both men and women, men tend to be more visual while women tend to be more emotional. But I think the act of intercourse has both a deep and profound psychological impact on both men and women, but perhaps women tend to be more emotionally impacted at least a little more than men. It creates an emotional and psychological bond that both men and women need and want and respond to regardless of whether or not the two are married. Inside the bounds of Holy Matrimony, the bond created has the potential of lasting longer than if the two are not married (this is not always the case, but studies show that it's generally true).
 
We don't know Seamus' full scenario yet, or what has transpired since his last post. We do know that 1) he sees himself as a Christian and 2) he's exploring different paths within Christianity (Catholic/Orthodox). We also know that as one draws closer to the Light, we see more of our sinful nature. This causes us to feel guilty while at the same time wanting to do something about it.

I hope you find the support and answers you're looking for Seamus and that you'll come back some day... Remember, even us Orthodox Christians are still on a journey.

 In Christ,

 Gabriel
 
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« Reply #27 on: October 10, 2007, 12:40:46 AM »

Most of the most pious women I knew as an evangelical, had no problem with sexual intimacy before marriage if they were deeply involved with you. I read saomewhere after becoming Orthodox that this is part of the "Eve Complex." -- if it feels right, do it.

It is ironic that we men feel more guilt about this.
Then again, maybe not.
Men are led by their hormones and we know that and that it is at worst, likely wrong and at best, selfish.
Women are lead by emotions, which are far more subtle and tricky

Ummm, being 'lead by hormones' and being 'lead by emotion' are essentially the same thing. Unless you are of the opinion that hormonal impulses is tantamount to reason and logic. In which case you're even more of a hedonist than I. Sure, human mental ability gives rise to the complexity of emotion but the impulses are quite fundamental, survival mechanisms (for the species, not necessarily for the individual) programmed into the human animal through the process of natural selection. Pretty much all human reaction to mating is derived from this. The differences between men and women is that men, as sperm producers, ensure the continuation of their genetic line by spreading as many of these biologically inexpensive cells as possible; whereas women, as egg producers, must be more selective in the generating of offspring and must ensure that both the best genetic match is found (as determined by evolutionary principles, though the evolution of society has certainly played some role) and that these few opportunities will be successful, that is to say the offspring will surivive. Thus, the male and female have different goals on an evolutionary, and thus instinctive, level...but both are compelled by evolutionary programming, in large part in the form of hormones.

It seems that you're right on target here. Although both traits are found in both men and women, men tend to be more visual while women tend to be more emotional. But I think the act of intercourse has both a deep and profound psychological impact on both men and women, but perhaps women tend to be more emotionally impacted at least a little more than men.

Perhaps you need to define what you mean by 'emotional', sexual attraction is as much of an 'emotion' as any other element of the mating process.

Quote
It creates an emotional and psychological bond that both men and women need and want and respond to regardless of whether or not the two are married.

Or, to be more specific, that the species needs and, because of which, that the individuals have been programmed to want.

Quote
Inside the bounds of Holy Matrimony, the bond created has the potential of lasting longer than if the two are not married (this is not always the case, but studies show that it's generally true).

But is this because there is something inherent in the social institution of marriage or because that those who share or would share this bond are most likely to formalize this through the aforementioned social institution?
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« Reply #28 on: October 10, 2007, 01:34:52 AM »

Perhaps you need to define what you mean by 'emotional',
Methinks thee knowest already. Bad troll. Bad.  Wink
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« Reply #29 on: October 10, 2007, 02:15:55 AM »

Methinks thee knowest already. Bad troll. Bad.  Wink

I have a basic idea, yes...but to discuss and debate a proposition a greater precision in definitions is required, and I am not certain by of the exact scientific understanding you are attempting to convey. Furthermore, by the definition I would use, your statements would be false; thus, I thought it prudent to allow you to give definitions so that we may evaluate the consistency (and hence validity) of your statements as well as the scientific significance of the same.

Of course I have other broader concerns with some of the ideas recently presented (Men feel more guilt about sex? On what planet? Because it would have to be one of which I am unawares.); but I suspect the fundamental assumptions are flawed. However, if I were to simply blatantly said that you guys do not know what you are talking about, it would be taken as some sort of personal attack (another human emotional trait, only partially related to the discussion at hand) and we wouldn't be able to have much fun with our rhetoric and debate as we would if we conducted ourselves in the manner dictated by human social customs. Grin

Accordingly, I cloak my accusations in the form of questions that fulfill the social custom of allowing you to respond to the same. Wink
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« Reply #30 on: October 10, 2007, 02:21:24 AM »

GIC what do/did you do as a job?
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« Reply #31 on: October 10, 2007, 02:43:16 AM »

GIC what do/did you do as a job?

I abandoned a promising academic track in mathematics (and theoretical computer science) after only a bachelors to study theology, of which I quickly tired. Now, I work as a civil/materials engineer, perhaps a punishment for my indiscretion...so you can see why I may be a bit bitter at times. Wink

One of these days I hope to go back to school and get a proper job as a researcher, or perhaps even a mathematician if I could ever again be worthy of the title, but for the time being I'm stuck in engineering.
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« Reply #32 on: October 10, 2007, 02:47:24 AM »

Some are not here for "fun", GiC.
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« Reply #33 on: October 10, 2007, 03:08:06 AM »

Some are not here for "fun", GiC.

Well, as I implied in my post, the 'fun' was simply a side-effect of being polite...would you prefer I stop attempting the latter in order that I may diminish the prospects of the former?
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« Reply #34 on: October 10, 2007, 03:10:08 AM »

Neither option seems acceptable.
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« Reply #35 on: October 10, 2007, 09:48:56 PM »

Furthermore, by the definition I would use, your statements would be false;
But the definition you would use is wrong. Rather than the perversions of the Kinsey report, may I suggest the Fathers of the Church?

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« Reply #36 on: October 10, 2007, 10:44:16 PM »

But the definition you would use is wrong. Rather than the perversions of the Kinsey report, may I suggest the Fathers of the Church?

Well, if we're going to be all pious-like and ignore modern science, why is everyone getting off on introducing the concept of human hormones into the discussion? Shouldn't you be restricting your 'reasoning' to the warm and fuzzy metaphysical world where we dont have to deal with those hard to understand topics like hormones and neurology? Wink
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« Reply #37 on: October 10, 2007, 11:12:03 PM »

Hmmm...let see now. Perhaps because the OP asked a question on morality, not reproductive science?

Frankly, morality is a far harder topic than science. Hormonal discussion merely begs the issue.
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« Reply #38 on: October 10, 2007, 11:28:34 PM »

Well, if we're going to be all pious-like and ignore modern science, why is everyone getting off on introducing the concept of human hormones into the discussion? Shouldn't you be restricting your 'reasoning' to the warm and fuzzy metaphysical world where we dont have to deal with those hard to understand topics like hormones and neurology? Wink
Dude, no one's ignoring modern science. In fact, Orthodox Christianity and science often compliment one another. But when speaking on matters of the heart and human person, esp when morality is involved, sometimes modern science falls short if it even answers at all. Not that neurology isn't important, I simply fail to see how studying neurology will help anyone with a morality issue. And when certain topics were brought into the conversation, there was a certain amount of innocent speculation and generalization involved. And it's not that facts are unwelcome, they are, but no one wants to turn this conversation into a cold observation table dominated by modern, secular facts.
And not to suggest that you're unwelcome here, but perhaps your cold, logical, argumentative talents would be more suited for a biology or mathematics or a humanistic theist forum.      
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« Reply #39 on: October 10, 2007, 11:38:59 PM »

Dude, no one's ignoring modern science. In fact, Orthodox Christianity and science often compliment one another. But when speaking on matters of the heart and human person, esp when morality is involved, sometimes modern science falls short if it even answers at all. Not that neurology isn't important, I simply fail to see how studying neurology will help anyone with a morality issue. And when certain topics were brought into the conversation, there was a certain amount of innocent speculation and generalization involved. And it's not that facts are unwelcome, they are, but no one wants to turn this conversation into a cold observation table dominated by modern, secular facts.
And not to suggest that you're unwelcome here, but perhaps your cold, logical, argumentative talents would be more suited for a biology or mathematics or a humanistic theist forum.      

GIC if you love reason and logic so much why are you not Roman Catholic?
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« Reply #40 on: October 10, 2007, 11:42:48 PM »

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GIC if you love reason and logic so much why are you not Roman Catholic?

So it is your contention that reason and logic are antithetical to Orthodoxy? 
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« Reply #41 on: October 11, 2007, 12:15:18 AM »

Hmmm...let see now. Perhaps because the OP asked a question on morality, not reproductive science?

Actually, it was a question about a relationship, and human psychology, hormones, neurology, etc. are most relevant to understanding how relationships work. It seems to me that you just made the connection pre-marital sex=bad and turned it into a discussion into morality. I suggested that morality is more nuanced, more complex, that that and argued that it was dependent on psychology and context.

Quote
Frankly, morality is a far harder topic than science. Hormonal discussion merely begs the issue.

Interesting how you would argue that after presenting a black and white world view.
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« Reply #42 on: October 11, 2007, 12:25:44 AM »

Dude, no one's ignoring modern science. In fact, Orthodox Christianity and science often compliment one another. But when speaking on matters of the heart and human person, esp when morality is involved, sometimes modern science falls short if it even answers at all.

I'm guessing you haven't spent too much time studying behaviour and psychology, have you actually read the Kinsey reports?

Quote
Not that neurology isn't important, I simply fail to see how studying neurology will help anyone with a morality issue. And when certain topics were brought into the conversation, there was a certain amount of innocent speculation and generalization involved. And it's not that facts are unwelcome, they are, but no one wants to turn this conversation into a cold observation table dominated by modern, secular facts.

Actually the question was about relationships...others wanted to jump over those factors and go straight for the morality angle. And, if I recall properly, I wasn't the one who started analyzing the situation from the perspective of the psychology of human mating; I simply responded to what I viewed to be a faulty analysis.

Quote
And not to suggest that you're unwelcome here, but perhaps your cold, logical, argumentative talents would be more suited for a biology or mathematics or a humanistic theist forum.      

Well, for better or worse my academic qualifications are in matters of religion. And while some on this board may take issue with my approaches, I have met others who are quite fond of them. We need more cold logic in Orthodoxy, we need more objective scientific approaches to issues; as the Orthodox world becomes more educated we see these things more and more, perhaps we can once again become the Church of the Fathers who used the science and understanding of their time to form theologies and moralities, perhaps we can again enter a new patristic era armed with the knowledge of the modern world and continue their work in spirit if not in letter.
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« Reply #43 on: October 11, 2007, 12:28:31 AM »

GIC if you love reason and logic so much why are you not Roman Catholic?

I would argue that the Orthodox are far more rational than the Latins; they claim to be guided by logic and reason, but reject nearly everything that logic and reason have produced through the enlightenment and the scientific revolution.

We may not use the same rhetoric, but at least we don't make theological proclamations against modern biology and scientific research.
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« Reply #44 on: October 11, 2007, 12:28:43 AM »

Actually, it was a question about a relationship, and human psychology, hormones, neurology, etc. are most relevant to understanding how relationships work. It seems to me that you just made the connection pre-marital sex=bad and turned it into a discussion into morality. I suggested that morality is more nuanced, more complex, that that and argued that it was dependent on psychology and context.

And since when is Holy Cross teaching that extra-marital copulation is not fornication? I'd like to know what my donations are paying for.
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Interesting how you would argue that after presenting a black and white world view.
Interesting comment from our self-admitted former theologian.
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