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Author Topic: Opinions of the Anglican Communion  (Read 3829 times) Average Rating: 0
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lubeltri
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« on: September 29, 2007, 05:02:23 PM »

I definitely feel for the Episcopalians who want to stay in the Anglican Communion but have only two choices: join up with the quasi-Evangelicals in Africa or stay with a church whose most celebrated and influential leaders are these two:



For those who truly believed in the catholicity of Anglicanism, it's like their whole world is imploding. they should be in our prayers.
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« Reply #1 on: September 29, 2007, 05:53:49 PM »

Well, it could be worse...they could be under the yoke of the pope of Rome. Wink
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« Reply #2 on: September 29, 2007, 08:54:48 PM »

  What concessions?  I read that it is actually just clever wording on their part, and that they very well may continue to select and elect openly gay priests and bishops so long as they claim to be celibate.  (Why a celibate anybody would go around defining themself by their sexuality, I have no idea, but apparently such wishy-washy self-labelling is important in The Episcopal Church.  Ego is important, especially if you can convince yourself that God is on your side and not the other way 'round.)  Also, while not 'authorizing' same sex blessings, I see nothing that says they won't tolerate such happening or continue doing so unofficially.  It is rather obvious that they will indeed tolerate it as they certainly aren't going out of their way to defrock the already existent openly gay clergy within their ranks.  They must think their 'orthodox' counterparts to be mentally deficient.

That's exactly what it means and the conservatives see through it (and in America are making moves to break away from the Episcopalians)... whilst the loud, obnoxious element among the liberals are crying because their bishops didn't 'affirm' them enough. (Meanwhile there are people in the world who belong to churches with unfashionable teachings - Roman Catholic, Orthodox, Assyrian - and have real problems, like being harassed every day by Israelis and forced to live in bantustans, or fleeing the Muslim onslaught in their ancestral home in Iraq.)
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« Reply #3 on: September 29, 2007, 11:38:41 PM »

So should they apologize for the superiority of western civilization? It is to their credit that their disagreements surround the political equality and formal acceptance of unpopular minorities rather than the violent oppression of the same.
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« Reply #4 on: September 30, 2007, 01:21:27 AM »

I definitely feel for the Episcopalians who want to stay in the Anglican Communion but have only two choices: join up with the quasi-Evangelicals in Africa or stay with a church whose most celebrated and influential leaders are these two:



For those who truly believed in the catholicity of Anglicanism, it's like their whole world is imploding. they should be in our prayers.

Wow that is sad. Cry
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« Reply #5 on: September 30, 2007, 01:24:46 AM »

Way back in the day about 9 years ago when I was in my first year of High School I used to actualy believe in the Anglican 3 branch theory finaly I woke up. And if these two clowns dont put that theory to rest nothing will.
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« Reply #6 on: September 30, 2007, 01:27:49 AM »

Well, it could be worse...they could be under the yoke of the pope of Rome. Wink

Its hard to say what would be worse. The Pope at least is Christian. These two are promoting a crazy Gnostic sect. I think I would take the Pope over a Rainbow Mitred weirdo or a heiphenated last name femnazi.
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lubeltri
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« Reply #7 on: September 30, 2007, 01:47:40 AM »

GiC's patriarch loves the Pope, interestingly enough. Smiley

I'm guessing GiC's problem with the Pope is that he is not more like Katherine Jefferts-Schori and Gene Robinson. Why, if only we were more like those two, our churches would become so much more relevant. And just think! We could have more rainbow mitres!
« Last Edit: September 30, 2007, 01:50:08 AM by lubeltri » Logged
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« Reply #8 on: September 30, 2007, 05:06:39 AM »

GiC's patriarch loves the Pope, interestingly enough. Smiley

I'm guessing GiC's problem with the Pope is that he is not more like Katherine Jefferts-Schori and Gene Robinson. Why, if only we were more like those two, our churches would become so much more relevant. And just think! We could have more rainbow mitres!

And membership would go through the roof just like RC Mass attendance after Vatican II. As our father among the saints John Shelby Spong hath said Christianity must change or die.

Seriously, he's marginal - Dr J-S and the Bishop of New Hampshire are in their 50s, the youngest people who think that sort of thing is cool.

It's like the generational divide in the Roman Church between older liberals and younger relative conservatives.

TEC is still a Christian church as shown by the current Prayer Book and probably will remain so for some time.

The new centre there has women priests and gay weddings but like the Archbishop of Canterbury believes the creeds and is even liturgically conservative compared to much of RC.

It deserves to be asked to leave the mostly Protestant, non-white, non-rich and non-liberal Anglican Communion for breaking faith with it on the gay thing.

Which wouldn't affect 90 per cent of Episcopalians in any way.

The only inevitable outcomes here are a few parishes will be split and a few others squashed. On both sides.

I can see membership dropping to below a million (lots of people are leaving and the members tend not to have kids) but it won't die out - it'll keep drawing its share of disaffected Romans and evangelicals who are (or fancy themselves) hip and urbane, like good production values in liturgy (thanks for that one, Keble) and have itching ears or want to be 'affirmed' in whatever turns them on. (How it works: the upper middle class accepts and wants something, like women ministers or gay weddings; TEC delivers then cooks up a theology for it) Part of the snob appeal now is not so much ethnicity or class but intellectual vanity: 'we're the thinking person's church not like those dumb Roman Catholics and evangelicals'.

(Comparison: the real, Sunday-attendance numbers in several American Orthodox denominations are only in the tens of thousands.)
« Last Edit: September 30, 2007, 03:05:04 PM by The young fogey » Logged

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« Reply #9 on: September 30, 2007, 09:59:14 AM »

Its hard to say what would be worse. The Pope at least is Christian. These two are promoting a crazy Gnostic sect. I think I would take the Pope over a Rainbow Mitred weirdo or a heiphenated last name femnazi.

Meaning no disrespect to you, (and I don't think that the mitre is very good) but how is this remark helpful or charitable?  What knowledge do you have that they are "Gnostic" please?  What do you mean when you use those perjoratives?

And for the record, Dr. Jefferts Schori's name is not hyphenated. Otoh, if one may  remind you, one of the more publically known writers on EO *is*, that is to say Frederica Mathewes-Green.  So how is having a hyphenated name something to be used as a perjorative, please?

Ebor
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« Reply #10 on: September 30, 2007, 10:06:14 AM »

I definitely feel for the Episcopalians who want to stay in the Anglican Communion but have only two choices: join up with the quasi-Evangelicals in Africa or stay with a church whose most celebrated and influential leaders are these two:

<Picture removed to save band width and because the miter clashes with the cope.  Wink )


+New Hampshire is hardly "most influential".  He is *known* in the press but that is different.  I can think of a number of other Bishops who are more influential across a spectrum in the Episcopal Church. 

Quote
For those who truly believed in the catholicity of Anglicanism, it's like their whole world is imploding. they should be in our prayers.

Thank you.  That would be kind and a nice change from "why don't you people wake up and realize that My Church is the only place for you" kinds of thing.  Sad  Not saying that you're doing that, but that it's been a thought that's been posted in other places on the 'Net.

Sigh.

Ebor
« Last Edit: September 30, 2007, 10:08:03 AM by Ebor » Logged

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« Reply #11 on: September 30, 2007, 10:23:38 AM »

 Roll Eyes Sigh.

1) I have no problem with the idea of women clergy.
2) I have no problem with the idea of same-sex attracted clergy.
....so could someone tell me what my reaction to these images was supposed to be? Perhaps I can feign it for you....

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« Reply #12 on: September 30, 2007, 11:50:09 AM »

Roll Eyes Sigh.

1) I have no problem with the idea of women clergy.
2) I have no problem with the idea of same-sex attracted clergy.
....so could someone tell me what my reaction to these images was supposed to be? Perhaps I can feign it for you....

Hear, Hear!
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« Reply #13 on: September 30, 2007, 11:58:09 AM »

Its hard to say what would be worse. The Pope at least is Christian. These two are promoting a crazy Gnostic sect. I think I would take the Pope over a Rainbow Mitred weirdo or a heiphenated last name femnazi.

You know, I actually agree with you on the issue of hyphenated last names, it's both passé and inappropriate. Of course it's better than changing one's last name altogether, but that's another issue. Fortunately in much of Europe (and specifically in Greece) for the past 40 years or so that practice of hyphenating last names has been done away with and people simply keep the name they were born with...rather than changing them every time they get married creating confusion on paperwork and an extra layer of bureaucratic nonsense. Unfortunately America is a bit behind the times on this matter (about 100 years), but I'm sure that one day good sense will prevail here as well.
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« Reply #14 on: September 30, 2007, 12:01:25 PM »

GiC's patriarch loves the Pope, interestingly enough. Smiley

I'm guessing GiC's problem with the Pope is that he is not more like Katherine Jefferts-Schori and Gene Robinson. Why, if only we were more like those two, our churches would become so much more relevant. And just think! We could have more rainbow mitres!

Yes, and His All-Holiness also gets along quite well with His Grace the Archbishop of Canterbury...though I think you missed my point. If you're going to use same old tired rhetoric to be disrespectful of the Bishops of the Anglican Communion, you should expect the favour to be returned; and there's plenty of traditional rhetoric out there aimed at he Bishop of Rome.
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« Reply #15 on: September 30, 2007, 01:15:20 PM »

You know, I actually agree with you on the issue of hyphenated last names, it's both passé and inappropriate. Of course it's better than changing one's last name altogether, but that's another issue. Fortunately in much of Europe (and specifically in Greece) for the past 40 years or so that practice of hyphenating last names has been done away with and people simply keep the name they were born with...rather than changing them every time they get married creating confusion on paperwork and an extra layer of bureaucratic nonsense. Unfortunately America is a bit behind the times on this matter (about 100 years), but I'm sure that one day good sense will prevail here as well.

Trends in America appear to suggest the opposite.  The practice of keeping maiden names appears to have peaked in the 1980 or early 90s, and is clearly declining in the younger generation.  Last I saw, the number of women who keep their maiden names or hyphenate is falling into the single digits.  In fact, most young women I know consider either practice as being dated and more than a bit insecure.

In Europe, a combination of radical feminism and government pressure have led women to keep their maiden names officially (though often not socially).  It's not "progress" for the government to make it effectively illegal for women to use their chosen name.
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« Reply #16 on: September 30, 2007, 01:22:19 PM »

And for the record, Dr. Jefferts Schori's name is not hyphenated. Otoh, if one may  remind you, one of the more publically known writers on EO *is*, that is to say Frederica Mathewes-Green.  So how is having a hyphenated name something to be used as a perjorative, please?

Without turning this into a thread on hyphenated last names, keep in mind that Frederica M-G hyphenated her last name before she became Orthodox as a statement of her liberal Protestantism.  I've only heard her mention it in the spirit of having been a "youthful indiscretion".  Note that none of her daughters (or daughters-in-law) appear to have followed suit.
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« Reply #17 on: September 30, 2007, 02:03:58 PM »

Trends in America appear to suggest the opposite.  The practice of keeping maiden names appears to have peaked in the 1980 or early 90s, and is clearly declining in the younger generation.  Last I saw, the number of women who keep their maiden names or hyphenate is falling into the single digits.  In fact, most young women I know consider either practice as being dated and more than a bit insecure.

Depends on what level of society you're talking about. In one of the few levels of society that actually matters, the upper class, this has been the norm for quite some time. I wonder how the statistics would change if you took into account only married couples collectively making over 120k/year? Which would include the upper and upper middle classes. It has always been that as society evolves, the (financial) upper classes tend to lead the way.

In any case, the rising divorce rate will reduce the practice to absurdity...not to m