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Author Topic: Any Protestants?  (Read 26809 times) Average Rating: 0
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prodromas
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« on: September 18, 2007, 04:37:03 AM »

Are there any Protestants on this forum?
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« Reply #1 on: September 18, 2007, 10:04:46 AM »

 I'm Anglican. 
 (since I go on the idea that there is no such thing as a generic "protestant".)

Is there some way in which I can be if help to you?

Ebor
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« Reply #2 on: September 18, 2007, 08:31:47 PM »

I've only been Orthodox for a little over a year.  I might have a few insights from my Baptist/Assembly of God days.
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« Reply #3 on: September 18, 2007, 10:55:05 PM »

Are there any Protestants on this forum?

Though I was received into the Church 3 years ago, I spent the previous 25 years as an American Baptist.  May I be of service?

Athanasia
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« Reply #4 on: September 18, 2007, 10:59:10 PM »

I was baptized in a congregation that belongs to the Presbyterian Church (USA), a liberal-modernist Protestant stonghold. It was in February 2004, and in January 2005 I was elected and ordained elder of that congregation. Became disappointed and left in October 2006, so not that long a "tenure," but have some knowledge of what's going on on the "liberal" side of the modern American mainline Protestantism, from inside. What questions do you have? --George
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« Reply #5 on: September 19, 2007, 12:44:47 AM »

Chrismated Orthodox just 1 1/2 years ago.  I am an ex-Lutheran, LCMS. How may I be of service to you?
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« Reply #6 on: September 19, 2007, 02:56:44 AM »

What drew you to convert to Orthodoxy? or didn't in Ebor's case.
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« Reply #7 on: September 19, 2007, 01:43:47 PM »

I would be willing to post on this if it would not go against the Forum rules.  I mean no offense to anyone in my not becoming EO, I assure you.  Perhaps the mods might decide if it would be alright.

Ebor
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« Reply #8 on: September 19, 2007, 03:35:33 PM »

I would be willing to post on this if it would not go against the Forum rules.  I mean no offense to anyone in my not becoming EO, I assure you.  Perhaps the mods might decide if it would be alright.

Ebor

I ran afoul of the mods by answering this type of question once before. I don't think there's much you can say.
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« Reply #9 on: September 19, 2007, 05:16:31 PM »

I would be willing to post on this if it would not go against the Forum rules.  I mean no offense to anyone in my not becoming EO, I assure you.  Perhaps the mods might decide if it would be alright.

Ebor
Ebor, are there rules against emailing your story privately to prodromas if he is agreeable to that?

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« Reply #10 on: September 19, 2007, 05:21:58 PM »

What drew you to convert to Orthodoxy? or didn't in Ebor's case.

In my case, it was, probably, my culture, my Ukrainain roots, plus a very serious disappointment in the church where I was baptized and made elder. I felt at some point that it's just not church. It's a gathering of various kinds of folks, most of whom are very good, charitable, eager to so something nice to their neighbor in the name of Christ. But there was never any feeling of Holy, of what Paul Tillich refers to as "the immediate presence of the Holy." The feeling that I actually did have when I was little, walking into the St. Volodymyr cathedral in my home city, Kyiv, and hearing the choir sing, and seeing the icons and murals, and smelling the incense. The feeling that I did have when my family and I lived in Seattle in the 1990's and visited a small Ukrainian mission parish. I just realized that I will never, ever get the same feeling anywhere but in the Orthodox church. So, I'm here (or "almost here," since I recently learned that the church I had been chrismated in is not a canonical Orthodox church).
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« Reply #11 on: September 19, 2007, 05:55:53 PM »

I would be willing to post on this if it would not go against the Forum rules.  I mean no offense to anyone in my not becoming EO, I assure you.  Perhaps the mods might decide if it would be alright.

Ebor

Can you quote (or link to) the rule(s) in question?

Thanks,
Peter.
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« Reply #12 on: September 19, 2007, 06:13:05 PM »

Can you quote (or link to) the rule(s) in question?

Thanks,
Peter.

I've been here for so long that I have to find the rules again.  Smiley  I'm just trying to be a good guest.

Ebor
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« Reply #13 on: September 19, 2007, 06:34:31 PM »

Ebor If you wouldn't mind emailing me that would be good to hear from you! I can pm you my private email.
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« Reply #14 on: September 19, 2007, 07:25:14 PM »

Heorhij and I were in the PCUSA at the same time, though probably in different churches.  I started attending in June 2004, then left in November 2006.  I thought I was "home," until I heard about Orthodoxy.  At first it was just a curiosity: Hey, a denomination I know very little about!  I also wanted to research the claims of universalism, and Orthodoxy claimed to go all the way back to the beginning without doctrinal changes.  But after I read "River of Fire" late one night (yes, I know it's polemical, but I was feeling polemical), I was hooked.  The more I learned, the more intrigued I became.  Orthodoxy was much different from the Protestantism and Catholicism I was familiar with.  Finally I realized Orthodoxy was the continuation of the New Testament Church, and couldn't stand to be away from it one moment longer.
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« Reply #15 on: September 19, 2007, 07:32:03 PM »

For my part, I became Orthodox after attending Protestant churches all my life and feeling like something was always missing.  Despite all the high tech gadgetry and "exciting" theatrics that are so prevalent these days, I never felt connected to anything and didn't really feel the Spirit move.  Also, church felt more like a country club to me, a place where the popular and/or exclusive crowd hangs out.  My first experience in the Orthodox church was the opposite:  I felt at home immediately, though I didn't really understand what was going on.  As for excitement and the presence of God, there's nothing like Pascha when the prayers go from repentence and sorrow to simple joy when we get to the Christ is Risen part.  Yay!
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« Reply #16 on: September 19, 2007, 07:35:31 PM »

As for excitement and the presence of God, there's nothing like Pascha when the prayers go from repentence and sorrow to simple joy when we get the the Christ is Risen part.  Yay!

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« Reply #17 on: September 19, 2007, 08:47:37 PM »

What drew you to convert to Orthodoxy?

A search for the True Church. 

I have been a Christian my entire life.  I was born and raised Roman Catholic and then went to Protestantism.  After 25 years as an American Baptist, I stumbled upon Eastern Orthodoxy in a college history class. 

The class syllabus included our professor taking us to Vespers and then Pascha at his church.  Upon entering the Nave and seeing the tomb of Christ, I was never so confronted with the fact that Jesus was a real man who really died.  It was rather startling to be honest.  Then at midnight when the priest banged on the Church door and we entered the Nave all alight, bright and shining and all of us yelling "Christ Is Risen!" I knew in that very moment that Christ had INDEED Risen and was INDEED my Savior.

It was at that split second I knew God brought me home.  My search was over.  By the end of Pascha Liturgy, I felt like I had just played a full tackle football game.  My body ached from the intense joy of being in God's Presence and feeling His Love all around me.  It was indescribable.

However, the difficulties were just beginning.  Today peace reigns and I would do it all over again.

Love IN Christ our Savior,
Athanaisa
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« Reply #18 on: September 19, 2007, 10:28:20 PM »

I was a Presbyterian and attended the evangelical congregations going against the tide of the larger liberal denomination; I also spent some years in a smaller, conservative Presbyterian denomination in the South.

For me it was the constant splintering into ever smaller "more true" presbyterian denominations over the years and the fact that the "shelf life" for these various denominations maintaining any sort of faithfulness to the bibilcal witness was 200 years tops. A Church that had made it 10 times that long without change or compromising its worship or doctrine was what made Orthodoxy appealing to me.

A liturgy and a couple vespers services sealed the deal for me! Catechumen to convert to having been here at least a little while - five years since the journey first began.
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« Reply #19 on: September 19, 2007, 10:31:53 PM »

I was Disciples of Christ/Church of Christ originally, baptized into an independent church whose paster was a big fan of the DoC and after leaving that church pastored a DoC church, then Assemblies of God for six years. When I was seventeen, I quit going to church, except for Sunday school. I went there mainly to talk to friends I wouldn't see otherwise. When I was eighteen, I left the AoG altogether. I went to a Baptist church after that, but only because I could be in a skit group. I went to Sunday school about twice a month so I could meet the requirements for staying in the group, but otherwise I was only in a service when I was performing.

I started looking for a church again because of my mother's prodding. After two weeks of visiting two different churches and being completely ignored (by completely, I mean not a single person spoke one word to me, not even "hello"), I was about ready to give up for good when I was invited to the Orthodox parish I'm now a part of by a friend I had met in college. My first reaction was, "It still exists? And it's here?" I had no idea the Orthodox Church had survived the schism; all history classes I had had ignored it after that, focusing on the European Middle Ages and the influence of the RC Church.

I immediately perceived the Orthodox Church to be the Church that I had read about in the Acts of the Apostles, and I have never been anywhere else since then. I still look back on my eighteen years as a Protestant positively; after all, they did teach me what Orthodoxy is. Even if the churches I was a part of were lacking somehow, they were close enough to the Church for me to be able to recognize it immediately. The greatest thing the Protestants gave me, though, was a knowledge of Scripture. The Protestants generally do very well at teaching a love for Scripture, even if they often err on the side of personal interpretations. I do not regret the time I had in Protestantism, nor do I regret becoming Orthodox. After all, "There is an appointed time for everything, and there is a time for every event under heaven" (Ecclesiastes 3:1).
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« Reply #20 on: September 19, 2007, 10:45:25 PM »

I do not regret the time I had in Protestantism, nor do I regret becoming Orthodox. After all, "There is an appointed time for everything, and there is a time for every event under heaven" (Ecclesiastes 3:1).

This is very well said.  I am sorry I didn't include it in my words because I feel the same exact way.  If it were not for all my time in the Protestant Church and all I learned, I would never have been led to the Orthodox Church.

Glory to God for all things!

Athanasia
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« Reply #21 on: September 19, 2007, 11:16:33 PM »

A search for the True Church. 

I have been a Christian my entire life.  I was born and raised Roman Catholic and then went to Protestantism.  After 25 years as an American Baptist, I stumbled upon Eastern Orthodoxy in a college history class. 

The class syllabus included our professor taking us to Vespers and then Pascha at his church.  Upon entering the Nave and seeing the tomb of Christ, I was never so confronted with the fact that Jesus was a real man who really died.  It was rather startling to be honest.  Then at midnight when the priest banged on the Church door and we entered the Nave all alight, bright and shining and all of us yelling "Christ Is Risen!" I knew in that very moment that Christ had INDEED Risen and was INDEED my Savior.

It was at that split second I knew God brought me home.  My search was over.  By the end of Pascha Liturgy, I felt like I had just played a full tackle football game.  My body ached from the intense joy of being in God's Presence and feeling His Love all around me.  It was indescribable.

However, the difficulties were just beginning.  Today peace reigns and I would do it all over again.

Love IN Christ our Savior,
Athanaisa

What a lovely story. Deo gratias. Thank you for that. I also get that experience when I attend a Divine Liturgy.
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« Reply #22 on: September 19, 2007, 11:20:28 PM »


I immediately perceived the Orthodox Church to be the Church that I had read about in the Acts of the Apostles, and I have never been anywhere else since then. I still look back on my eighteen years as a Protestant positively; after all, they did teach me what Orthodoxy is. Even if the churches I was a part of were lacking somehow, they were close enough to the Church for me to be able to recognize it immediately. The greatest thing the Protestants gave me, though, was a knowledge of Scripture. The Protestants generally do very well at teaching a love for Scripture, even if they often err on the side of personal interpretations. I do not regret the time I had in Protestantism, nor do I regret becoming Orthodox. After all, "There is an appointed time for everything, and there is a time for every event under heaven" (Ecclesiastes 3:1).

Well said. There are elements of grace and truth in those other communions that should be respected. I thank our loving and merciful God for the graces he provides to our neighbors outside the visible boundaries of the Church.
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« Reply #23 on: September 19, 2007, 11:40:47 PM »

I would be willing to post on this if it would not go against the Forum rules.  I mean no offense to anyone in my not becoming EO, I assure you.  Perhaps the mods might decide if it would be alright.

Ebor

I could not imagine that any would take offence with you responding to a legitimate question according to the dictates of your conscience. Huh
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« Reply #24 on: September 19, 2007, 11:50:33 PM »

I would be willing to post on this if it would not go against the Forum rules.  I mean no offense to anyone in my not becoming EO, I assure you.  Perhaps the mods might decide if it would be alright.

Ebor 

I don't see a problem with it... If people decide to use it to trigger debate, I'll split that part off into its own thread.
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« Reply #25 on: September 20, 2007, 11:57:52 PM »

This is very well said.  I am sorry I didn't include it in my words because I feel the same exact way.  If it were not for all my time in the Protestant Church and all I learned, I would never have been led to the Orthodox Church.

Glory to God for all things!

Athanasia

I can concur with you. Nonetheless, I would have preferred to have been born into the Orthdox faith. I think a lot of false spiritual battles in my life were waged in the name of protestant gnosticism and/or Calvinistic doctrines of "total depravity." Being born Orthodox would have saved me some grief!
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« Reply #26 on: September 21, 2007, 10:35:32 AM »

I can concur with you. Nonetheless, I would have preferred to have been born into the Orthdox faith. I think a lot of false spiritual battles in my life were waged in the name of protestant gnosticism and/or Calvinistic doctrines of "total depravity." Being born Orthodox would have saved me some grief!

I think I know what you mean. I was raised in the former USSR in a non-religious family, so I never had any systematic religious education, but the Orthodox Church was right there, near me, I saw it, heard it, sensed it all the time, and it would never even occur to me that the Church can be an arena of what you call "false spiritual battles." Here in the US, especially after my move to the Deep South, I was overwhelmed with all these "battles" fought by Protestants - "Dispensationalism" vs. "Covenant Theology," "Pre-Milleniarism" vs. "Post-Milleniarism" or "A-Milleniarism," "Arminianism" vs. "Calvinism," etc. etc. etc. I remember seeing on a conservative Calvinist Web site a statement that an Arminian is so much worse than a Mohammedan or a Pagan... Smiley And it's striking that all these battles are over "non-issues," over something that the historical Church either never even considered worth debating, or solved long time ago.
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« Reply #27 on: September 21, 2007, 10:57:02 AM »

I think I know what you mean. I was raised in the former USSR in a non-religious family, so I never had any systematic religious education, but the Orthodox Church was right there, near me, I saw it, heard it, sensed it all the time, and it would never even occur to me that the Church can be an arena of what you call "false spiritual battles." Here in the US, especially after my move to the Deep South, I was overwhelmed with all these "battles" fought by Protestants - "Dispensationalism" vs. "Covenant Theology," "Pre-Milleniarism" vs. "Post-Milleniarism" or "A-Milleniarism," "Arminianism" vs. "Calvinism," etc. etc. etc. I remember seeing on a conservative Calvinist Web site a statement that an Arminian is so much worse than a Mohammedan or a Pagan... Smiley And it's striking that all these battles are over "non-issues," over something that the historical Church either never even considered worth debating, or solved long time ago.

You're right. Without the doctrine of total depravity, the whole Calvinist-Arminian debate is moot. When people ask me whether I'm Calvinist or Arminian, I tell them "neither."
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« Reply #28 on: September 21, 2007, 11:46:44 AM »

I can concur with you. Nonetheless, I would have preferred to have been born into the Orthdox faith. I think a lot of false spiritual battles in my life were waged in the name of protestant gnosticism and/or Calvinistic doctrines of "total depravity." Being born Orthodox would have saved me some grief!

But dear Brother A,

You would have had another kind of angst growing up Orthodox. It was painful to grow up with the knowledge of living in the original church of Christ and realize you don't know how to share it with others or if you did share it with others they would have to endure Divine Liturgy in a foreign language. The phrase that 'Orthodoxy is the best kept secret' still makes me wince every time I hear it.  Embarrassed
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« Reply #29 on: September 21, 2007, 12:30:29 PM »

I could not imagine that any would take offence with you responding to a legitimate question according to the dictates of your conscience. Huh

Because it is possible that through a poor choice of words on my part or some other misunderstanding of what I would be trying to get across, that someone might take it as an "attack" or declaration against EO or something like that. 

Ebor
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« Reply #30 on: September 30, 2007, 09:37:43 AM »

I don't see a problem with it... If people decide to use it to trigger debate, I'll split that part off into its own thread.

Well, in trying to 'walk carefully', if I may, I would like to say that I have been to EO services of a number of jurisdictions, including WR.  But I have not felt that which others have written of, or in some cases, I have felt the same thing that I experience in my own Anglican worship.

Also, just to be clear, there have been those in the past (not on this forum that I recall) who have written that if a person studies History then he/she *must* become EO (or RC depending on the writer's own Church).  Well, I think from my posts here that I do study History and it is important to me and yet it has not moved me to convert.

I apologize if any of the above offends.

Ebor
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« Reply #31 on: September 30, 2007, 10:08:29 AM »

Well, in trying to 'walk carefully', if I may
Take courage Ebor, and walk more freely!
Context is everything. Had you written this in response to an Inquirer's question in the Convert Issues Forum, or in response to a prayer request in the Prayer Forum, (the two no-fly zones for debate) I would certainly have questioned your motives. But all I can see here is you stating where your conscience is and what your personal experiences are.
And the other context is that you have earned much trust by your balanced and thoughtful posts over the years. If anyone has a right to speak, it's you.
Personally, I think what you have to say about your experiences is important for we Orthodox Christians to hear.
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« Reply #32 on: September 30, 2007, 11:34:44 PM »

Take courage Ebor, and walk more freely!
Context is everything. Had you written this in response to an Inquirer's question in the Convert Issues Forum, or in response to a prayer request in the Prayer Forum, (the two no-fly zones for debate) I would certainly have questioned your motives. But all I can see here is you stating where your conscience is and what your personal experiences are.
And the other context is that you have earned much trust by your balanced and thoughtful posts over the years. If anyone has a right to speak, it's you.
Personally, I think what you have to say about your experiences is important for we Orthodox Christians to hear.

Agreed! Ebor, you always have something valuable to say.
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« Reply #33 on: October 18, 2007, 02:08:38 PM »

Take courage Ebor, and walk more freely!

I have been thinking about this for a couple of weeks, and how to 'walk more freely' without causing upset.  Other reasons that I have for not becoming EO might inadvertently offend.   Some of the things I believe or think do not agree with the EO; if I did think in all things as the EO I would *be* EO, I think it follows logically.

Also, there's the idea of some things are 'subjective' and others are 'objective'.  But that neither means that ALL things are subjective, nor that someone's personal experience is "wrong" because another felt something different.  (It feels like I'm being incoherant to some degree, but it's difficult to phrase things when one feels like one is walking a tightrope in another's home and the crystal goblets, china and other fragibles are all around.  Smiley  )

Quote
Context is everything. Had you written this in response to an Inquirer's question in the Convert Issues Forum, or in response to a prayer request in the Prayer Forum, (the two no-fly zones for debate) I would certainly have questioned your motives. But all I can see here is you stating where your conscience is and what your personal experiences are.

And the other context is that you have earned much trust by your balanced and thoughtful posts over the years. If anyone has a right to speak, it's you.

Thank you. That is very kind of you to write.  (And what about my goofy and quirkly posts, one wonders  Grin )

Quote
Personally, I think what you have to say about your experiences is important for we Orthodox Christians to hear.

I'll try then, but it feels like I should have a big sign on everyone "I'm not trying to upset anyone". or the like.

As I mentioned above, while others write that they felt or experienced in EO worship something that they did not in other cases, this is not the case with me.  (this is one of the subjective parts).  At the WR service, it was all familiar (including the hymnal  Smiley ) with a couple of minor things different.  At the Byzantine Liturgies there was beauty, yes, but while different not orders of magnitude 'better' or more 'worshipful' then the Anglican services that I have been a part of for over 30 years.  I feel great peace and the presence of God in Anglican liturgies and prayers.

To be honest, some other EO services seemed to *me* to be chaotic.  There were people moving all around, coming and going, entering the building and leaving it (I am not writing of the priest(s), deacon(s) etc, but the congregation.)  One parishioner who had invited us to his parish had warned us that it would be like "a bus terminal" and I could see the comparison.  Early one, someone (vested iirc) was going through some prayers/psalms in Slavonic (they were waiting for a bishop to arrive) at a machine-gun rattling pace while few seemed to be paying attention.  I, by nature, am an introvert and the Anglican "decently and in order" liturgies is how I *can* worship; the thought of services like that, I'm very sorry, give me a headache and an impulse to get away from it.

I think that is enough for now (feeling rather neurotic at the moment). 

No offense is meant to anyone or to EO.

Ebor

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« Reply #34 on: October 18, 2007, 02:09:46 PM »

Agreed! Ebor, you always have something valuable to say.

Even my "Monty Python" and other quotes?   Grin

Thank you for the encouragement.

Ebor
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« Reply #35 on: October 18, 2007, 02:31:33 PM »

Even my "Monty Python" and other quotes?   Grin
Ah, but what could be more valuable than out-of-context Monty Python drivel? They said more with nonsense than most do with carefully written essays.
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« Reply #36 on: October 18, 2007, 02:32:31 PM »

(this is one of the subjective parts).

Come on, stick your neck out, I'd be more interested in the more objective parts. Wink

Seriously, I don't know why anyone wouldn't want to hear an objective criticism of their religion. It may give you a perspective you have not considered, and depending on your sympathy to the perspective it may increase your faith or cause you to question, but in either case it will give you perspective, it will give you knowledge, it will allow you to learn from another's experience...and for any who care about truth or knowledge, this can only be a good thing.
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« Reply #37 on: October 18, 2007, 03:05:24 PM »


To be honest, some other EO services seemed to *me* to be chaotic.  There were people moving all around, coming and going, entering the building and leaving it (I am not writing of the priest(s), deacon(s) etc, but the congregation.)  One parishioner who had invited us to his parish had warned us that it would be like "a bus terminal" and I could see the comparison.  Early one, someone (vested iirc) was going through some prayers/psalms in Slavonic (they were waiting for a bishop to arrive) at a machine-gun rattling pace while few seemed to be paying attention.  I, by nature, am an introvert and the Anglican "decently and in order" liturgies is how I *can* worship; the thought of services like that, I'm very sorry, give me a headache and an impulse to get away from it.


I remember thinking that the Orthodox service was like a circus.  But when I started doing a prayer rule under the guidance of my spiritual father, things within me began to change.......
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« Reply #38 on: October 18, 2007, 03:13:30 PM »

What drew you to convert to Orthodoxy? or didn't in Ebor's case.

I'm literate, and the Lord has a mighty strong hand.
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« Reply #39 on: October 21, 2007, 08:07:34 PM »

To be honest, some other EO services seemed to *me* to be chaotic.  There were people moving all around, coming and going, entering the building and leaving it (I am not writing of the priest(s), deacon(s) etc, but the congregation.)  One parishioner who had invited us to his parish had warned us that it would be like "a bus terminal" and I could see the comparison.

 Cheesy I know precisely what you mean!
When I visit my Aunt in Sydney, I attend her very large Parish Church, and I have the same impression myself. People talking , moving about, coming and going. I remember one Sunday, the Priest becoming so frustrated, that at the end of the Liturgy, he refused to distribute the Antidoron, and sent the Sacristan to stand at the door with it.
Last year, this Parish sent a busload of people on a pilgrimage to our Monastery here in the mountains, and some of them started talking during the reading of the Epistle. The Abbot was the celebrant that day. He stopped the Epistle reading and walked into the nave carrying the censor. He approached the two main culprits and ordered them to follow him and made them stand in front of the Reader whom he ordered to begin the Epistle from the beginning again. After the reading, the Abbot made the culprits stand at the front for the rest of the Liturgy! If people are going to behave in Church like they're in junior school, then that's how they should be treated IMHO!
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« Reply #40 on: October 21, 2007, 11:09:00 PM »

My Friend in a Greek Orthodox church in Melbourne referred to the old ladies (yayades) standing in line at the end for the antidoro as the scrum (rugby team) because of how strong they are at pushing to get to the end! Another incident the son of the priest told us was that people were in line for the antidoro and they were visually pushing people to get the the front and the priest got so angry he grabbed the antidoro ran to the front door of the church and yelled "he who is first shall be served last and he who is last shall be first" everyone was then solemnly quiet and acted orderly after that and the people at the front were last!
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« Reply #41 on: October 21, 2007, 11:57:33 PM »

these last several posts are some funny stories.
My priest chastised on of the "ushers" - not really appointed but guys who stand at the back of the church all service; that sunday they were talking too much and too long.














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« Reply #42 on: October 23, 2007, 02:54:07 PM »

Come on, stick your neck out, I'd be more interested in the more objective parts. Wink

Seriously, I don't know why anyone wouldn't want to hear an objective criticism of their religion. It may give you a perspective you have not considered, and depending on your sympathy to the perspective it may increase your faith or cause you to question, but in either case it will give you perspective, it will give you knowledge, it will allow you to learn from another's experience...and for any who care about truth or knowledge, this can only be a good thing.

But there could be other persons who would not take kindly to something that seemed a criticism of their Church/religion.  A possible parallel situation might be not wanting to hear something less them appreciative about a loved one, or ones home place or something like that.  Then again, they might not see such a thing as objective, but subjective because the poster/writer is not part of their Church (I've had that happen before.  "You don't like this/understand this/appreciate this/accept this because you are not part of my group.  There is nothing wrong here, it's all with *you*." )  It is such people that I am at least in part thinking of when 'walking through the china shop" as it were.

Look on this as practicing empathy while also trying to explain oneself, maybe.

Ebor
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« Reply #43 on: October 23, 2007, 02:57:48 PM »

I remember thinking that the Orthodox service was like a circus.  But when I started doing a prayer rule under the guidance of my spiritual father, things within me began to change.......

Well, it changed for you.  I mean no offense when I write that it is quite possible that the experience might not change for me.  Human beings, in the wonderous diversity in which God created each of us, do not all fit into one pattern and I do not believe that the Maker of All intended us to fit into one box or to worship in only one way.

Ebor
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« Reply #44 on: October 23, 2007, 03:01:46 PM »

Cheesy I know precisely what you mean!
When I visit my Aunt in Sydney, I attend her very large Parish Church, and I have the same impression myself. People talking , moving about, coming and going. I remember one Sunday, the Priest becoming so frustrated, that at the end of the Liturgy, he refused to distribute the Antidoron, and sent the Sacristan to stand at the door with it.
Last year, this Parish sent a busload of people on a pilgrimage to our Monastery here in the mountains, and some of them started talking during the reading of the Epistle. The Abbot was the celebrant that day. He stopped the Epistle reading and walked into the nave carrying the censor. He approached the two main culprits and ordered them to follow him and made them stand in front of the Reader whom he ordered to begin the Epistle from the beginning again. After the reading, the Abbot made the culprits stand at the front for the rest of the Liturgy! If people are going to behave in Church like they're in junior school, then that's how they should be treated IMHO!

I have often wondered during my visits to EO parishes what the priest is thinking of the umm less then attentive behaviour of his flock.  Do you have any theories of *why* this is so common?  I've seen it in mostly slavic parishes here and you've had it in Greek ones in Australia. 

Ebor
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« Reply #45 on: October 23, 2007, 03:05:58 PM »

My Friend in a Greek Orthodox church in Melbourne referred to the old ladies (yayades) standing in line at the end for the antidoro as the scrum (rugby team) because of how strong they are at pushing to get to the end! Another incident the son of the priest told us was that people were in line for the antidoro and they were visually pushing people to get the the front and the priest got so angry he grabbed the antidoro ran to the front door of the church and yelled "he who is first shall be served last and he who is last shall be first" everyone was then solemnly quiet and acted orderly after that and the people at the front were last!

"the scrum" made me laugh. Cheesy  But I feel for the priest who had to deal with such a group.  It surely wasn't 'decently and in order' for them to act that way. (the quote marks are an Anglican/Episcopalian catch phrase taken from the NT.)

Ebor
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« Reply #46 on: October 23, 2007, 03:14:12 PM »

I have often wondered during my visits to EO parishes what the priest is thinking of the umm less then attentive behaviour of his flock.  Do you have any theories of *why* this is so common?  I've seen it in mostly slavic parishes here and you've had it in Greek ones in Australia. 

Ebor

My wife refuses to visit the OCA cathedral in DC for vigil again because of all the "milling about", as she called it, by a group of women up near the front.  They spent most of the first half discussing their confession lists (at least, that's what it looked like) and then after confession started discussing their respective penances.  I was ready for it, but she wasn't and it really left a sour taste in her mouth, so to speak.

St. John Chrysostom wrote/spoke about the inattentiveness of people in his day.  Perhaps that's a main reason why "Wisdom!  Be attentive" is declared so many times during the DL. 

I love the way the Abbot at the monastery ozgeorge wrote about handled it!
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« Reply #47 on: October 23, 2007, 06:19:13 PM »

I am Protestant. Nondenominational evangelical to be precise, though I attend Mars Hill Church which is "Emergent" or whatever we want to label it.
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« Reply #48 on: October 23, 2007, 07:58:57 PM »

I am Protestant. Nondenominational evangelical to be precise, though I attend Mars Hill Church which is "Emergent" or whatever we want to label it.

Mars Hill in Seattle???


EDIT: I looked at your profile, and saw that no, you're not in Seattle.  Sad
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« Reply #49 on: October 23, 2007, 08:36:16 PM »

Do you have any theories of *why* this is so common?
Yes. The Devil.
This is the common understanding of this phenomenon in Orthodox Spirituality.
For example, this is from my the website of my Archdioscese:
Quote
In the fifth century, at the Mount of Olives, satan continuously attacked a desert father in his seventies. The monk told the devil, "You grew old with me, leave me alone". The devil replied, "If you do as I tell you, I will never try you again… Stop calling and honouring her" as he pointed to an icon of the Blessed Ever-Virgin Mary. This is why the heretics are peaceful and quiet, because the devil does not try them hoping to make us believe that they are doing well. The person who tries and battles is tempted and attacked by the devil. You may have noticed that the heterodox churches on Sundays are quiet, whilst Orthodox churches are always noisy. In the heretic environment, the devil does not need to disrupt the services, whereas he always tries to disrupt the Orthodox services. If you resolve to be more zealous in your worship and regularly pray, study the Bible and writings of the Church fathers, fast, go to confession, and save your money to give to the poor, you will discover that the devil will not leave you alone day or night. Alternatively, if you do not bother to make an effort to live an Orthodox life, the devil will not disturb you making you feel that he does not exist. Do you have courage?
source: http://home.it.net.au/~jgrapsas/pages/repented.htm
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« Reply #50 on: October 23, 2007, 11:38:54 PM »

Yes. The Devil.
This is the common understanding of this phenomenon in Orthodox Spirituality.
For example, this is from my the website of my Archdioscese:

Hmm, then those of us afflicted with irreverent Novus Ordos must be coming under the greatest attack Smiley
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« Reply #51 on: October 23, 2007, 11:41:08 PM »

Hmm, then those of us afflicted with irreverent Novus Ordos must be coming under the greatest attack Smiley
They're not disrupted though, are they?
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« Reply #52 on: October 24, 2007, 12:21:55 AM »

They're not disrupted though, are they?

You don't find this disruptive?  Wink



Speaking of disruptive, I think the most disruptive thing I can recall during Mass is the time in 1989 when a homosexual AIDS activist group called ACT-UP stormed St. Patrick's Cathedral in New York by the hundreds, shouting slogans, lying down on the floor, chaining themselves to the pews, throwing cum-filled condoms at the altar, and desecrating the Eucharist (one member chewed the Host and spat Christ out all over the floor). Talk about diabolical, eh?

Seriously, though, I agree with your interpretation. The Devil is always on attack---and two of his weapons are confusion and distraction.
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« Reply #53 on: October 24, 2007, 12:37:19 AM »

You don't find this disruptive? 
Not at all. The service proceeds exactly as planned with everyone participating attentively. I don't see the Priest having to stop the Liturgy to drag two people to the front and make them stand in front of the Reader so they don't talk during the Epistle. I don't see people walking in late and talking to each other about the lousy weather during the Gospel or Consecration. I don't see old ladies loudly scolding people for kneeling in Church on Sundays or folding their arms.
The Novos Ordo is orderly (just a different order). Divine Liturgies are a trial by fire for clergy and laity.
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« Reply #54 on: October 24, 2007, 01:00:45 AM »

Not at all. The service proceeds exactly as planned with everyone participating attentively. I don't see the Priest having to stop the Liturgy to drag two people to the front and make them stand in front of the Reader so they don't talk during the Epistle. I don't see people walking in late and talking to each other about the lousy weather during the Gospel or Consecration. I don't see old ladies loudly scolding people for kneeling in Church on Sundays or folding their arms.
The Novos Ordo is orderly (just a different order). Divine Liturgies are a trial by fire for clergy and laity.

But that is not the Novus Ordo, but a gross abuse. Abuses are a regular occurrence in many places, and every one of them serves to distract people from the proper vertically-orientated worship of God. It is certainly a trial by fire to remain focused on the Eucharist through such shenanigans, even without the late-comers, early leavers, frequent talking, inappropriately dressed communicants and screaming babies. Sigh. . .

The EO does not have a monopoly on diabolical distraction.
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« Reply #55 on: October 24, 2007, 01:19:52 AM »

The EO does not have a monopoly on diabolical distraction.

I think you've missed the point of the article and are turning this into a traditionalic vs. Novos Ordo Abuse thing.
What you consider "liturgical abuses" of the Novos Ordo are not "abuses" in the eyes of those who participate in them. They go according to plan (no matter how weird that plan is). My experiences of 40 years of Orthodox Divine Liturgies is that they never go to plan. Even in the Monastery where I have attended liturgy for the last 12 years, something always manages to cause a disturbance- people arguing, talking, being annoying, the wrong hymn being chanted by the choir, the Reader beicoming distracted and losing his place in the Prayers or Psalms. There is a diabolical attempt to disrupt the flow of the Service and People's participation in it.
In contrast, heterodox Services, no matter how whacky, flow nicely as planned. Everyone watches the Liturgical Dancers quietly, people are silent during reading/prayers/rubrics, people behave cordially with one another. In other words, there is little need for diabolical influence to disturb the Service.
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« Reply #56 on: October 24, 2007, 08:22:56 AM »


I think you've missed the point of the article and are turning this into a traditionalic vs. Novos Ordo Abuse thing.
What you consider "liturgical abuses" of the Novos Ordo are not "abuses" in the eyes of those who participate in them. They go according to plan (no matter how weird that plan is). My experiences of 40 years of Orthodox Divine Liturgies is that they never go to plan. Even in the Monastery where I have attended liturgy for the last 12 years, something always manages to cause a disturbance- people arguing, talking, being annoying, the wrong hymn being chanted by the choir, the Reader beicoming distracted and losing his place in the Prayers or Psalms. There is a diabolical attempt to disrupt the flow of the Service and People's participation in it.
In contrast, heterodox Services, no matter how whacky, flow nicely as planned. Everyone watches the Liturgical Dancers quietly, people are silent during reading/prayers/rubrics, people behave cordially with one another. In other words, there is little need for diabolical influence to disturb the Service.

How do you know it just isn't boredom? An Evangelical friend of mine went to her first EO DL on Sunday. She was telling me about all the people there, and how bored they looked, swaying and twiddling. She herself was fidgeting endlessly and eventually left after an hour and a half. She told me she's not going back.

 Cheesy To be honest, this sounds like a Frederica Mathews-Green idea: Orthodoxy is better than everything else because we've got more distracted communicants! lol

Really, you could make claims like that in a lot of other ways. I could claim Catholicism is true because of the sex-abuse scandal. The Devil didn't need to tempt and attack bishops of other communions. Protestants could claim they are true because of the fracturing they constantly experience. The Devil doesn't need, after all, to hit the Catholics and Orthodox with as much of that.

I would also point out that disruptive communicants are also found in abundance outside the EO Church.

This is really similar to other spurious arguments, like "My church is the true one because of its apparitions and miracles." Not very useful when other churches claim the same. Of course, like some articles on OC.net, you could always claim that "heterodox" miracles and apparitions are demonically influenced. But then you're back to presuming you know what is demonic and what is sheer human frailty.
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« Reply #57 on: October 24, 2007, 09:12:17 AM »

How do you know it just isn't boredom? An Evangelical friend of mine went to her first EO DL on Sunday. She was telling me about all the people there, and how bored they looked, swaying and twiddling. She herself was fidgeting endlessly and eventually left after an hour and a half. She told me she's not going back.

 Cheesy To be honest, this sounds like a Frederica Mathews-Green idea: Orthodoxy is better than everything else because we've got more distracted communicants! lol

Really, you could make claims like that in a lot of other ways. I could claim Catholicism is true because of the sex-abuse scandal. The Devil didn't need to tempt and attack bishops of other communions. Protestants could claim they are true because of the fracturing they constantly experience. The Devil doesn't need, after all, to hit the Catholics and Orthodox with as much of that.

I would also point out that disruptive communicants are also found in abundance outside the EO Church.

This is really similar to other spurious arguments, like "My church is the true one because of its apparitions and miracles." Not very useful when other churches claim the same. Of course, like some articles on OC.net, you could always claim that "heterodox" miracles and apparitions are demonically influenced. But then you're back to presuming you know what is demonic and what is sheer human frailty.

Let's review what has happened here:
1) Ebor asked me if I had any idea why Orthodox services are so often disrupted by the behaviour of the faithful.
2) I replied with my opinion, reflected in an article on my Archdiocesan website.
3) You chime in and say that the liturgical abuses of the Novos Ordo Roman Catholic Mass is the same.
4) I explain to you that it is not the same because the article (and I) are talking about the order and flow of the Service being disrupted, whereas you are talking about an order of Service you disagree with and find disrespectful.

My opinion was asked, I gave it. You misunderstood what I was saying, I corrected you, now you tell me I am wrong.....sigh.....

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« Reply #58 on: October 24, 2007, 09:39:27 AM »

Let's review what has happened here:
1) Ebor asked me if I had any idea why Orthodox services are so often disrupted by the behaviour of the faithful.
2) I replied with my opinion, reflected in an article on my Archdiocesan website.
3) You chime in and say that the liturgical abuses of the Novos Ordo Roman Catholic Mass is the same.
4) I explain to you that it is not the same because the article (and I) are talking about the order and flow of the Service being disrupted, whereas you are talking about an order of Service you disagree with and find disrespectful.

My opinion was asked, I gave it. You misunderstood what I was saying, I corrected you, now you tell me I am wrong.....sigh.....


And on the Orthodox-Protestant Discussions board, to boot. Wink
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« Reply #59 on: October 24, 2007, 09:45:29 AM »

I guess the RCC is Protestant after all  Wink
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« Reply #60 on: October 24, 2007, 09:49:26 AM »

I guess the RCC is Protestant after all  Wink
Told ya so. Cheesy
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« Reply #61 on: October 24, 2007, 10:44:25 AM »

How do you know it just isn't boredom? An Evangelical friend of mine went to her first EO DL on Sunday. She was telling me about all the people there, and how bored they looked, swaying and twiddling. She herself was fidgeting endlessly and eventually left after an hour and a half. She told me she's not going back.

 Cheesy To be honest, this sounds like a Frederica Mathews-Green idea: Orthodoxy is better than everything else because we've got more distracted communicants! lol


In her opinion they looked bored. That's because chances are liturgical worship is something she either a) is not used to or b) does not approve of as she prefers more spontaneity.

There could have been a myraid of other reasons including language that induced her reaction. My first 3 DLs were served entirely in Ukrainian, a language that at the time I knew nothing of. Yet I knew walking in the first time that whatever I found, Orthodoxy was home and the only option.

Unless you hit that point, where a person *intellectually* converts to Orthodoxy, then IMHO beauty of worship doesn't matter, because otherwise you will always remain Protestant, or Latin, or whatever.
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« Reply #62 on: October 24, 2007, 11:01:26 AM »

Well, Orthodox liturgies heavily larded with ex-Episcopalians ARE done "decently and in order". Well, except when the bishop comes, which would appear to indicate that bishops are agents of the devil.  Wink
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« Reply #63 on: October 24, 2007, 11:09:06 AM »

I gotta agree with ozgeorge on this one (hmm..that's twice this week...someone check and see if the Enemy is ice-skating to work Wink ).

Badly done NO are proceeding exactly as planned, even if the planners are planning it completely in non-accordance with the directives of their own church.  Is it the Enemy at work?  As a Catholic, I believe so, but that's neither here nor there in this instance.

ozgeorge is referring to a priest literally stopping services because they're not going as planned.  When was the last time, lubeltri, you heard of a Catholic priest stopping the Mass because of, say, liturgical dancing?  The instance at St. Patrick's in 1989, as horrible as it was, is the exception that proves the rule (and yes, the Enemy was most certainly at work there!)
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« Reply #64 on: October 27, 2007, 08:57:43 AM »

Are there any Protestants on this forum?

I guess you can say I've come out of Protestantism at the moment,I haven't found a parish to attend,because of my current situation,I travel quite a bit,I hope within the next few months I can settle down a little bit,and start looking for a church.
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« Reply #65 on: October 28, 2007, 11:17:36 AM »

I apologize for asking the question I did.  I did not mean for any strife to happen and thinking back, perhaps it was a rather impertinent thing to ask. 

Thank you for your interesting answer to it, OzGeorge, though.  The Antiochian parish that I have visited several times, that was started by an Episcopal priest-converting, his family and some people from his former parish did not have much in the way of not paying attention and distractions though. 

My first 3 DLs were served entirely in Ukrainian, a language that at the time I knew nothing of. Yet I knew walking in the first time that whatever I found, Orthodoxy was home and the only option.

Well, this is something that I'm trying to get across. You and others found EO/Byzantine Liturgy the right place for you.  But others, such as I, did not.  That is where a degree of subjectivity would seem to come into play perhaps. Not any right/wrong but a matter of individuals and situations that do not affect all people the same.

Respectfully,

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« Reply #66 on: November 28, 2007, 05:30:57 AM »

I am considered protestant.

I am the chief elder/bishop of my local church. It is an independent non-denominational church. We consider ourselves a Bible church open to all Christians. As a church we are essentially an independent evangelical "bapticostal" church.

For an idea of our core beliefs ...

• We believe the Bible to be the inspired, the only infallible, authoritative Word of God.

• We believe that there is one God, eternally existent in three persons: Father, Son and Holy Spirit.

• We believe in the deity of our Lord Jesus Christ, in His virgin birth, in His sinless life, in His miracles, in His vicarious and atoning death through His shed blood, in His bodily resurrection, in His ascension to the right hand of the Father, and in His personal return in power and glory.

• We believe that for the salvation of lost and sinful people, faith, repentance, and regeneration by the Holy Spirit are absolutely essential.

• We believe in the present ministry of the Holy Spirit by whose enabling and indwelling the Christian is empowered to live a godly life, to be an effective witness, and to work the supernatural works of Christ.

• We believe in the resurrection of both the saved and the lost; they that are saved unto the resurrection of eternal life and they that are lost unto the resurrection of damnation and everlasting punishment.

• We believe in the spiritual unity of believers in our Lord Jesus Christ.


Furthermore we practice immersion of believers in water in obedience to His command, a memorial meal (aka Communion, Lord's supper, Eucharist, Passover, etc.) consisting of unleavened bread and wine/grape juice in celebration and remembrance of Christ atoning sacrificial death and resurrection, and with anticipation for His coming again.


That should give you an idea where I am on the important and usual stuff.

I don't post here often. But occasionally pop in, and sometimes drop a few lines.


Yours in Him,
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« Reply #67 on: November 28, 2007, 08:33:25 AM »

Chrismated Orthodox just 1 1/2 years ago.  I am an ex-Lutheran, LCMS. How may I be of service to you?

LCA ex-Lutheran, but now it's been so long, I can barely remember Protestantism as a personal experience, just the intellectual arguments.
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« Reply #68 on: November 28, 2007, 08:49:23 AM »

That should give you an idea where I am on the important and usual stuff.

I don't post here often. But occasionally pop in, and sometimes drop a few lines.
Christopher,

Good to see you! We tend not to get very many evangelicals on this site, and having someone of your standing in an evangelical church posting here would be much appreciated. Many of us (myself included) are from a "Bapticostal" background, so don't feel like you're talking to strangers. Been there, done that--and indeed, I have a whole closet full of T-shirts from Bapticostal churches. Post as much as you like, and feel free to start topics. You may be able to bring up things that the rest of us would never think of.

God bless.
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« Reply #69 on: November 28, 2007, 03:33:55 PM »

I am considered protestant.

I am the chief elder/bishop of my local church. It is an independent non-denominational church. We consider ourselves a Bible church open to all Christians. As a church we are essentially an independent evangelical "bapticostal" church.


Please pardon my ignorance (and I mean that sincerely, not sarcastically), but could you please define (or anyone, really) "bapticostal?"  I see the obvious roots of baptist and pentecostal, but is there something significant about this confession?  Or does it mean that the church is a mix of baptist and pentecostal ideals?  I'm a little confused...

Thanks!
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« Reply #70 on: November 28, 2007, 03:42:05 PM »

Please pardon my ignorance (and I mean that sincerely, not sarcastically), but could you please define (or anyone, really) "bapticostal?"  I see the obvious roots of baptist and pentecostal, but is there something significant about this confession?  Or does it mean that the church is a mix of baptist and pentecostal ideals?  I'm a little confused...

Charismatic Baptists. In other words, Baptists who shout, wave their hands and speak in tongues instead of sit on their hands (the usual Baptist position). The services are much more contemporary Evangelical than the usually staid "standard" Baptist service.

If you think that's a strange combo, you should meet a friend of mine, who calls herself Angli-geli-matic.
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« Reply #71 on: November 28, 2007, 03:42:54 PM »

The term "bapticostal" usually refers to people who believe similarly to the Baptists and Pentecostals. They may, for example, believe that in order to be saved you must speak in tongues (Pentecostal), but that once you are saved, you cannot lose that salvation (Baptist). Such people are generally unfulfilled in either denomination.

Therefore, a new group of independent churches has arisen, with no ties to either (or in some cases any) denomination. They are a haven for these "Bapticostal" folks who cannot otherwise find a church that believes as they do.
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« Reply #72 on: November 28, 2007, 03:53:32 PM »

Another name in jest for main line Churches of a Protestant leaning is "Baptodisterian". 

Episcopalians (at least in some parts such as the Chesapeake Bay area may be called "Soft Shell Catholics"  Grin

Ebor
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« Reply #73 on: November 28, 2007, 03:54:24 PM »

Christopher,

Good to see you! We tend not to get very many evangelicals on this site, and having someone of your standing in an evangelical church posting here would be much appreciated. Many of us (myself included) are from a "Bapticostal" background, so don't feel like you're talking to strangers. Been there, done that--and indeed, I have a whole closet full of T-shirts from Bapticostal churches. Post as much as you like, and feel free to start topics. You may be able to bring up things that the rest of us would never think of.

God bless.

Thank you for the cordial welcome.
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« Reply #74 on: November 28, 2007, 03:56:35 PM »

does it mean that the church is a mix of baptist and pentecostal ideals?  I'm a little confused...

Essentially, yes.
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« Reply #75 on: November 28, 2007, 03:59:51 PM »

Charismatic Baptists. In other words, Baptists who shout, wave their hands and speak in tongues instead of sit on their hands (the usual Baptist position). The services are much more contemporary Evangelical than the usually staid "standard" Baptist service.

Dead on.  Wink Although in our case we are a congregation of varied backgrounds, mostly (Freewill) Baptist and Pentecostal backgrounds. So we are quite literally a combination of Baptists and Pentecostals. However, we do have some with a Methodist influence and one from the Church of Christ.
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« Reply #76 on: November 28, 2007, 04:01:44 PM »

Dead on.  Wink Although in our case we are a congregation of varied backgrounds, mostly (Freewill) Baptist and Pentecostal backgrounds. So we are quite literally a combination of Baptists and Pentecostals. However, we do have some with a Methodist influence and one from the Church of Christ.

My father left Catholicism when I was 3 and became a Baptist. I grew up going to Baptist services. I've probably been to more Baptist services than any other in my life.  Smiley
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« Reply #77 on: November 28, 2007, 04:03:42 PM »

The term "bapticostal" usually refers to people who believe similarly to the Baptists and Pentecostals. They may, for example, believe that in order to be saved you must speak in tongues (Pentecostal), but that once you are saved, you cannot lose that salvation (Baptist). Such people are generally unfulfilled in either denomination.

Therefore, a new group of independent churches has arisen, with no ties to either (or in some cases any) denomination. They are a haven for these "Bapticostal" folks who cannot otherwise find a church that believes as they do.

I have always found the topic of speaking in tongues interesting.  For us Orthodox, it is quite clear that "speaking in tongues" in Acts referred to known languages, and that this was a gift given to the Apostles by the Holy Spirit for the specific purpose of speaking to those that were gathered with them who were from other lands.  I have never understood the overemphasis on the speaking of gibberish tongues.  It just seems so logical to me, academically, theologically, and spiritually.  I am always shocked that people believe in speaking gibberish.  

I often credit these types of things to misinterpretations of the scriptures, as a result of either:
1) not belonging to a church that holds a tradition and context in which to interpret the Bible properly (such as Orthodoxy or Catholocism), and thus interpreting it according to their own interpretations/beliefs/worldview/will/what-have-you; or
2) mistranslations of the original Greek.  

I would be very interested to hear why these churches participate in tongue speaking and what the belief is about it.

*NOTE* None of this is not meant offensively.  It's just my opinion on the topic.
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« Reply #78 on: November 28, 2007, 04:05:04 PM »

The term "bapticostal" usually refers to people who believe similarly to the Baptists and Pentecostals. They may, for example, believe that in order to be saved you must speak in tongues (Pentecostal), but that once you are saved, you cannot lose that salvation (Baptist). Such people are generally unfulfilled in either denomination.

Woah! Wait a second. Bad example. We do not, and in fact most Pentecostals do not believe one has to speak in tongues to be saved.
2ndly, though some baptist believe in eternal security (once saved always saved) and some who attend my congregation do, I do not. Also most of our baptist influence is freewill baptist. These also do not believe in eternal security.

As far as being unfulfilled in either denomination for most that is probably less the case than expediency or other local issues -- not the denomination itself, at least as far as beliefs go.
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« Reply #79 on: November 28, 2007, 04:23:15 PM »

Well, this is something that I'm trying to get across. You and others found EO/Byzantine Liturgy the right place for you.  But others, such as I, did not.  That is where a degree of subjectivity would seem to come into play perhaps. Not any right/wrong but a matter of individuals and situations that do not affect all people the same.

Respectfully,

Ebor


My point kinda was, as to whether the service affected my final status as a convert, that the socalled "smells and bells" of Orthodox worship did not influence my final decision. As so many others have commented, I realized that I was not in the Church of Christ, which is where I needed to be. My .02.

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« Reply #80 on: November 28, 2007, 05:38:36 PM »

Woah! Wait a second. Bad example. We do not,
It should be said that Bapticostals, as a cross-breed and not a real denomination, differ greatly as to which beliefs they choose from either side. The issues I chose are but two among many and are not intended to be representative of all Pentecostal, all Baptist, or certainly all Bapticostal churches. Finding any belief held in common by all churches in these three groups is nigh impossible.

Quote
and in fact most Pentecostals do not believe one has to speak in tongues to be saved.
They'll never admit to believing it. In fact, within the realm of Pentecostalism (especially the Assemblies of God), there is the idea that a person receives the Holy Spirit at Baptism yet does not have the fullness of Christ until they receive the Baptism in the Holy Spirit, which they define as being able to speak in tongues. In effect, the salvation is begun at baptism but is not completed until the person speaks in tongues. Therefore, a person who has been baptized but does not speak in tongues is either not fully saved or not saved at all.

Quote
2ndly, though some baptist believe in eternal security (once saved always saved) and some who attend my congregation do, I do not. Also most of our baptist influence is freewill baptist. These also do not believe in eternal security.
There is indeed a wide variety of beliefs on this issue among the various Baptist churches, but the ones that I had contact with held eternal security as a core belief.

Quote
As far as being unfulfilled in either denomination for most that is probably less the case than expediency or other local issues -- not the denomination itself, at least as far as beliefs go.
The being unfulfilled part is, I admit, autobiographical. There are of course many reasons people choose a church or choose not to attend church at all. I have, however, spoken with many people from the Bapticostal background, both while I was attending such churches and afterwards, and many have expressed disapproval of at least one aspect of their church.

I in no way attempted to speak for your personal beliefs or those of your church; if you want to do so, please do. I merely wanted to give a general explanation of this informal group to those who have not been a part of it.
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« Reply #81 on: December 01, 2007, 03:58:33 AM »



Episcopalians (at least in some parts such as the Chesapeake Bay area may be called "Soft Shell Catholics"  Grin

Ebor

that is hilarious!   laugh
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« Reply #82 on: December 01, 2007, 04:02:13 AM »

Woah! Wait a second. Bad example. We do not, and in fact most Pentecostals do not believe one has to speak in tongues to be saved.
2ndly, though some baptist believe in eternal security (once saved always saved) and some who attend my congregation do, I do not. Also most of our baptist influence is freewill baptist. These also do not believe in eternal security.


then you are already half way there on the journey to Orthodoxy!  Wink
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« Reply #83 on: December 01, 2007, 04:14:57 AM »

then you are already half way there on the journey to Orthodoxy!  Wink


laugh Ahhhh, but then I am not on the journey to Orthodoxy, but rather towards orthodoxy. Just ask Y-man. He can vouch that I must be a tremendous mental gymnast.  Wink Tongue

Seriously, in spite of the lack of effective communication our traditions lack one towards another, I am not here to become Orthodox. I am here to build bridges, to network and fellowship with Orthodox believers, and maybe knock down some of the walls that separate us as Christians from one another as individual believers. I doing so we may come to have more respect and understanding for one another, and hopefully be all the more knit together in love.

In other words I aim to be your friendly neighborhood resident "Evangesleyian Holicostalrationsist" protestant Christian.

Evangesleyian Holicostalrationsist = Evangelical + WesleyianArminian . Holiness + Pentecostal / Restorationist
 

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« Reply #84 on: December 01, 2007, 08:32:11 AM »

laugh Ahhhh, but then I am not on the journey to Orthodoxy, but rather towards orthodoxy. Just ask Y-man. He can vouch that I must be a tremendous mental gymnast.  Wink Tongue
I've seen better on the theological pummel horse, and your Middle Way balance beam needs work, but the floor routine is fantastic!  Grin
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« Reply #85 on: December 01, 2007, 07:50:26 PM »

Seriously, in spite of the lack of effective communication our traditions lack one towards another, I am not here to become Orthodox. I am here to build bridges, to network and fellowship with Orthodox believers, and maybe knock down some of the walls that separate us as Christians from one another as individual believers. I doing so we may come to have more respect and understanding for one another, and hopefully be all the more knit together in love.
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Very well said!
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« Reply #86 on: December 02, 2007, 12:42:32 AM »

My point kinda was, as to whether the service affected my final status as a convert, that the socalled "smells and bells" of Orthodox worship did not influence my final decision. As so many others have commented, I realized that I was not in the Church of Christ, which is where I needed to be. My .02.

In Christ
Ivan

Thank you for the clarification. 

I believe that I *am* in the Church of Christ, that is in the "blessed company of all faithful people" as it says in the BCP, and that Anglicans are part of His Church/Christendom.  Yes, it's the "Branch Theory".  But with Our Lord as the Vine, all people are 'the branches.  Smiley


Please forgive my tardiness.  Welcome to the forum, Cleopas.  Smiley

Ebor
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« Reply #87 on: December 15, 2007, 12:17:27 AM »

Quote
Are there any Protestants on this forum?

Is this question serious or is it just rhetorical?

Let me see.  The majority of the forum appears to be Orthodox Brothers and sisters arguing, fighting and acting in derisive behavior towards each other.  That doesn't really interest me too much.

The protestant relations part appears to be others telling me what I believe or why I am too apprehensive too become Orthodox.  Like everyone personally knows me.  This doesn't interest me all that much either. 

The real question is why would a protestant want to hang around here?  I apologize for offending but the forum doesn't appear to have anything too edifying.  Too an outsider, it looks like an Orthodox family squabble.

Please forgive if my words offend.




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« Reply #88 on: December 15, 2007, 12:53:03 AM »

Is this question serious or is it just rhetorical?
I think Podromas was simply curious.

Let me see.  The majority of the forum appears to be Orthodox Brothers and sisters arguing, fighting and acting in derisive behavior towards each other.  That doesn't really interest me too much.
The anonymity of the internet allows people to behave in ways they otherwise wouldn't in a face to face setting.  It's just the way it is; take it with a grain of salt and look for the good.  Plus, a lot of posters have been here awhile and have become very good friends (at least as good as you can get in an artificial setting) and like to tease each other. 

In Christ,
Gabriel
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« Reply #89 on: January 05, 2008, 12:47:50 AM »

OK.  yes I'm still here.  Some folks did a good job and convinced me to hang around awhile.

Methodist by weekend.  Anglican by weekday.
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« Reply #90 on: January 05, 2008, 12:53:53 AM »

  The majority of the forum appears to be Orthodox Brothers and sisters arguing, fighting and acting in derisive behavior towards each other. 


What else do brothers and sisters do with each other?   Grin   The people I am the most polite to are strangers.
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« Reply #91 on: January 05, 2008, 02:06:34 AM »

What else do brothers and sisters do with each other?   Grin 

Isn't that the truth, LoL!   laugh
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« Reply #92 on: January 08, 2008, 12:44:55 AM »

What else do brothers and sisters do with each other? 

Thanks for that insight.  Several folks sent me PMs trying to explain it and I didn't get it.  This makes a whole bunch of sense though..  Wait till you meet my family Roll Eyes
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« Reply #93 on: January 08, 2008, 01:48:31 AM »

What else do brothers and sisters do with each other?
Part of it's sibling rivalry.  The other part of it is that we each know what we can get away with. Cool
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« Reply #94 on: January 22, 2008, 01:44:06 AM »

True
I have been posting here since 2004 and have gotten to "know" other post-ers. Some have been here longer than me. Others have come and gone. I don't post anywhere else.

What I like most is the repartee. Sometimes it makes me angry. Sometimes annoyed. But usually it stimulates me to think and evaluate and re-evaluate. As iron sharpens iron, as the text says.

Sometimes you can be right with another post-er on a particular subject. The next thread you can be on exact opposite sides of an issue. It is interesting and mentally stimulating.
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« Reply #95 on: January 22, 2008, 03:49:50 AM »

What else do brothers and sisters do with each other?   Grin   The people I am the most polite to are strangers.

One of the best statements/explanations ever.

My dad, when I was criticizing about something would say, "Do you say/do this to your friends too?" and I would answer, "Of course not!  They're my friends!"  I remember a classmate in one of my statistics classes in college who was doing a double in Stats/Sociology would say how we act differently around our friends compared to our family.  While obvious sounding, this was a revelation to me.  I thought about this and it was like a DUH! statement.
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« Reply #96 on: July 08, 2008, 01:03:28 PM »

I was a baptist for 30 some odd years, from Independent, southern or freewill...bapticostal as well. Whatever Jerry thought he would be at the time is what the church did.
Then there were so many daughter churches from that ministry/seminary that you could find any flavor you wanted in baptistdom.
I have only been a convert of nearly 5 years so I am probably still wired a little funny. Wink
I personally find it incredibly difficult, if not downright impossible, to get past the feminine aspects of baptist dogma in order to have rational discussion with my 'sisters'. And since I still live in a rabidly baptist area that means I don't get to have much rational discussion.  Huh
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« Reply #97 on: July 10, 2008, 03:16:12 PM »

For some reason I have been a bit reluctant to reply but here goes:

I am at present the Pastor of a Church of God (Cleveland, TN) church.  COG is a Pentecostal denomination and I am a fourth generation COG (please don't read this as boasting, I just want  you to understand my Protestant background better).  I am very much convinced of the Truth of Orthodoxy and will by God's Grace one day make the leap.  As I have stated in previous post, attending our denominational seminary and there being introduced to the Fathers (albeit only briefly) began my journey.  I have been studying Orthodoxy for several yearfs now.  I have been to some services (not nearly as many as I would like) and have a fine OCA priest with whom I have contact. 

Pray for me, the sinner.
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« Reply #98 on: July 10, 2008, 09:19:58 PM »

For some reason I have been a bit reluctant to reply but here goes:

I am at present the Pastor of a Church of God (Cleveland, TN) church.  COG is a Pentecostal denomination and I am a fourth generation COG (please don't read this as boasting, I just want  you to understand my Protestant background better).  I am very much convinced of the Truth of Orthodoxy and will by God's Grace one day make the leap.  As I have stated in previous post, attending our denominational seminary and there being introduced to the Fathers (albeit only briefly) began my journey.  I have been studying Orthodoxy for several yearfs now.  I have been to some services (not nearly as many as I would like) and have a fine OCA priest with whom I have contact. 

Pray for me, the sinner.

Lord, have mercy on your servant.
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« Reply #99 on: October 11, 2008, 01:07:23 PM »

The question seems to be simply, "Are there any Protestants on this forum?" unless I am missing something. The answer is Yes. My family were Methodists from about the 1860s, and I came to faith in Christ in a Methodist context about a century later, but was persuaded that baptism should be applied only to believers, so I was baptised by immersion in 1966. I am a member of a Baptist church, and have served two pastorates in Baptist churches. The question, whether it is right or even mandatory to be Roman Catholic, Orthodox or Evangelical was one I considered carefully. I have not seen a reason to change churches. It does not follow that I believe I have no RC or Orthodox brethren in Christ with whom, by God's mercy, I shall spend eternity.

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« Reply #100 on: October 11, 2008, 01:30:04 PM »

Welcome, David Young!

Yours is a good reply, simply stated. I think you'll find many similarities in Orthodoxy to what you have stated. We also baptize believers (though this practice is different from the so-called "believers' baptism"), by immersion whenever possible (unless precluded by illness or other such condition). We also believe that those who receive God will be with Him eternally, and that though we are the one true Body of Christ, we cannot and should not say who will not be saved.

I look forward to many good discussions with you on this forum.
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« Reply #101 on: October 24, 2008, 08:29:28 PM »

Are there any Protestants on this forum?

Yup.  Wink
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« Reply #102 on: October 25, 2008, 02:11:43 AM »

I am a convert to Orthodoxy.
I love and respect the Presbyterian/Reformed heritage I had before coming to Orthodoxy.
When I read something stupid, or stereotypcial, a strawman, or a caricture of protestantism or evangelicalism, I feel myself a protestant because the usual falaciousness of the attempts to reduce protestantism/evangelicalism to something ridiculous awakens in me  protective instinct.
BTW, I have a very narrow, historical definition of evangelical: those who in the thirties and early forties identified themselves as neo-evangelicals in opposition to fundamentalists. The progeny of Harold Ockenga, Carl F. H. Henry and Billy Graham.

I do not consider pentecostals, charasmatics, and fundamentalists to be evangelicals in the historical sense. In my estimation, Pat Robertson is not an evangelical; Jerry Falwell was not (he was a fundamentalist). NONE of the past or current TV faith healers are evangelcials.

I am a "strict constructionist" regarding evangelicalism.

Regarding evangelicals in the British Isles, I am not as conversant but would mention John Stott. J.I. Packer, Willi Still and Os Guiness.
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