Author Topic: Validity of Icons  (Read 72031 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline Entscheidungsproblem

  • Formerly Friul & Nebelpfade
  • Protokentarchos
  • *********
  • Posts: 4,495
    • Amsterdam Declaration 2002
Re: Validity of Icons
« Reply #45 on: September 20, 2007, 11:42:45 PM »
Isn't that Buddy Jesus from the Roman Catholics? I would certainly be surprised if it's actually Protestant in origin, since the figurine has a rather conspicuous Sacred Heart.

I always thought it was from that movie Dogma?
As a result of a thousand million years of evolution, the universe is becoming conscious of itself, able to understand something of its past history and its possible future.
-- Sir Julian Sorell Huxley FRS

Offline GabrieltheCelt

  • Taxiarches
  • **********
  • Posts: 7,013
Re: Validity of Icons
« Reply #46 on: September 20, 2007, 11:44:04 PM »
yes, take their Bible and place it on the floor and place your foot on it and see what they would do. That would be very difficult to do and I don't know if I could pull it off. I suppose it would be justified to make a point. But it would make a protestant realize their own veneration of the Bible. We venerate icons in the same way. Maybe that might help them distinguish the difference between veneration (of icons, saints, the Theotokos, holy angels) and worship (reserved for the Holy Trinity alone)
What a great point, BrotherAidan. I might use the illustration the next time I discuss this with a Protestant.
"The Scots-Irish; Brewed in Scotland, bottled in Ireland, uncorked in America."  ~Scots-Irish saying

Offline BrotherAidan

  • OC.net guru
  • *******
  • Posts: 1,568
  • OC.net
Re: Validity of Icons
« Reply #47 on: September 20, 2007, 11:46:38 PM »
The second picture was also very popular in ... ahem... vintage ( ;D) Baptist churches, but once they tried to get hip with the kids, most of them hid that picture in their attics.  Now you get the Fonzie Jesus, if anything.



this looks like the Burger King without the crown!
creepy!

Offline GabrieltheCelt

  • Taxiarches
  • **********
  • Posts: 7,013
Re: Validity of Icons
« Reply #48 on: September 20, 2007, 11:48:05 PM »
I always thought it was from that movie Dogma?
Actually, I think you're both right. The director/writer, Kevin Smith(?) was raised as a Catholic, though I don't think he practices any longer. The movie is pretty blasphemous.
"The Scots-Irish; Brewed in Scotland, bottled in Ireland, uncorked in America."  ~Scots-Irish saying

Offline sohma_hatori

  • Earthbending Novice
  • High Elder
  • ******
  • Posts: 527
  • The Blind Bandit
Re: Validity of Icons
« Reply #49 on: September 21, 2007, 03:16:51 AM »
Can we conclude then that Icons in many other forms, are necesarry and in some ways "inert" in man's search for God?
""Pride is not the opposite of shame, but it's source. True humility is the only antidote to shame.""
— Iroh- Avatar:The Last Airbender

Offline ytterbiumanalyst

  • Professor Emeritus, CSA
  • Merarches
  • ***********
  • Posts: 8,790
Re: Validity of Icons
« Reply #50 on: September 21, 2007, 07:55:46 AM »
Actually, I think you're both right. The director/writer, Kevin Smith(?) was raised as a Catholic, though I don't think he practices any longer. The movie is pretty blasphemous.
It is, but as we are so fond of saying here, a stopped clock...

I think the "Buddy Jesus" idea is exactly what's wrong with the West. The feeling is that what is newer is better; if people don't like something about the church, change it to appease them. It's this "seeker-sensitive" sh** that causes people like Kevin Smith to reject the Church totally. I'm glad to see Pope Benedict reversing that trend. I've long said that the West has good intentions; the problem is that what they do accomplishes the opposite of what they want to happen. We need to see a return to tradition in all of Christianity; the Pope has the visibility to possibly be able to effect that.
"It is remarkable that what we call the world...in what professes to be true...will allow in one man no blemishes, and in another no virtue."--Charles Dickens

Offline aserb

  • asinner
  • OC.net guru
  • *******
  • Posts: 1,188
Re: Validity of Icons
« Reply #51 on: September 21, 2007, 08:07:08 AM »
y-man

right on bro!
Save us o' Son of God, who art risen from the dead, as we sing to thee Alleluia!

Offline aserb

  • asinner
  • OC.net guru
  • *******
  • Posts: 1,188
Re: Validity of Icons
« Reply #52 on: September 21, 2007, 08:13:58 AM »
Actually, as my daughter is fond of saying, people will always be attracted to the new and different. So those groups will always have a following; however,what will be their long term impact. When you reduce your faith to me and Jesus and the Bible alone it is easy to concentrate on only the here and now. You put down shallow roots. Tradition becomes meaningless as does leaving a legacy. This is endemic in American thinking which is a new culture. We love the new and different. it's funny cause I live in Philadelphia and am reminded daily of the struggle to create this country as I am surrounded by icons from the revolutionary era and monuments to the founders' fame and glory. Tradition if you will.
Save us o' Son of God, who art risen from the dead, as we sing to thee Alleluia!

Offline EofK

  • Mrs. Y
  • Protokentarchos
  • *********
  • Posts: 3,976
  • lolcat addict
Re: Validity of Icons
« Reply #53 on: September 21, 2007, 11:10:10 AM »
this looks like the Burger King without the crown!
creepy!

LOL!  You're right, it does!  Plot thickens....
Human beings, who are almost unique in having the ability to learn from the experience of others, are also remarkable for their apparent disinclination to do so. -- Douglas Adams

Offline EofK

  • Mrs. Y
  • Protokentarchos
  • *********
  • Posts: 3,976
  • lolcat addict
Re: Validity of Icons
« Reply #54 on: September 21, 2007, 11:15:01 AM »
I think the "Buddy Jesus" idea is exactly what's wrong with the West. The feeling is that what is newer is better; if people don't like something about the church, change it to appease them. It's this "seeker-sensitive" sh** that causes people like Kevin Smith to reject the Church totally. I'm glad to see Pope Benedict reversing that trend. I've long said that the West has good intentions; the problem is that what they do accomplishes the opposite of what they want to happen. We need to see a return to tradition in all of Christianity; the Pope has the visibility to possibly be able to effect that.

I wonder if this is why there's currently a surge toward Orthodoxy.  It's unknown to so many people that it seems new and different; they just happened to stumble on the one church that hasn't tried to keep up with the Joneses.  And amen to getting rid of the "seeker-sensitive" mentality.  So many churches of that sort don't really make their church accessible to seekers, but dumb it down so that no one could possibly be offended by it.  Personally, if I'm offended by something from the church, I try to look at myself first.  I'm probably the one with the problem.
Human beings, who are almost unique in having the ability to learn from the experience of others, are also remarkable for their apparent disinclination to do so. -- Douglas Adams

Offline ytterbiumanalyst

  • Professor Emeritus, CSA
  • Merarches
  • ***********
  • Posts: 8,790
Re: Validity of Icons
« Reply #55 on: September 21, 2007, 04:50:53 PM »
Personally, if I'm offended by something from the church, I try to look at myself first.  I'm probably the one with the problem.
This is a response of repentance. But in Protestant churches preaching that I am already saved, what incentive is there for me to repent? Furthermore, if I am saved, I am perfect, and therefore the problem must lie with the other person. Arrogance is the corollary to the Calvinist doctrine of salvation.
"It is remarkable that what we call the world...in what professes to be true...will allow in one man no blemishes, and in another no virtue."--Charles Dickens

Offline Nyssa The Hobbit

  • Used to be OrthodoxFairyQueen
  • Elder
  • *****
  • Posts: 396
    • Who is this Nyssa person, anyway?
Re: Validity of Icons
« Reply #56 on: September 21, 2007, 07:17:16 PM »
Where did you find those? I also grew up with those as a protestant!

A little searching with Google.  I think I used the Images search.
Author of "Tojet" (fantasy) and "The Lighthouse" (Gothic), info available at my website URL.

Offline BrotherAidan

  • OC.net guru
  • *******
  • Posts: 1,568
  • OC.net
Re: Validity of Icons
« Reply #57 on: September 21, 2007, 11:59:00 PM »
This is a response of repentance. But in Protestant churches preaching that I am already saved, what incentive is there for me to repent? Furthermore, if I am saved, I am perfect, and therefore the problem must lie with the other person. Arrogance is the corollary to the Calvinist doctrine of salvation.

Arrogance, correct. But there is alot of guilt in that religion:
1. you're not 100% sure you're one of the elect; arrogance thinking you probably are, but doubt in private moments wondering if you really are.
2. total depravity makes one think one is pretty scummy, and everyone else too
3. there is a certain legalism that when you don't live up, you feel guilty
4. theological arrogance because Calvinists are truly among evangelicalisms best scholars and thinkers; there can be some incipient guilt because it is such a cerebral faith and can be lacking in emotion, so guilt over not being more warm spritiually
5. guilt from feeling one doesn't measure up to the hard, cold rationalistic theology and doctrinal triumphalism of some the Calvinist vanguard
6. no sacrament of confession to know you are forgiven

At least that was my experience in that community; I didn't understand # 6 until I became Orthodox

The discussion about Confession that has flowed from the 6th point has been given its own thread

Re: Confession
http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,12854.0.html

- Cleveland, Global Moderator
« Last Edit: September 24, 2007, 09:04:47 AM by cleveland »

Offline BrotherAidan

  • OC.net guru
  • *******
  • Posts: 1,568
  • OC.net
Re: Validity of Icons
« Reply #58 on: September 22, 2007, 12:04:46 AM »
A little searching with Google.  I think I used the Images search.


thanks!