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Author Topic: Validity of Icons  (Read 62719 times) Average Rating: 0
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sohma_hatori
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« on: September 17, 2007, 12:13:15 AM »

um.. I mean no offense by this, but there was a protestant pastor who attacked the RC saying this..

"If your Icons and statues of Christ are really true, and are worth respecting, how sure are you that what you are depicting is really Christ Himself? Are you sure that that is really how Christ looks like?"


Has anyone have anything to say about this?
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« Reply #1 on: September 17, 2007, 12:18:19 AM »

The point of icons is not that they are physically accurate. Actually in (some??) Orthodox traditions, icons are written to be physically inaccurate.

It is not so much that His skin colour is accurate (as I have seen Ethiopian icons with His skin black), but that the Icon symbolizes that He is watching down us sinners, as we offer our prayers and worship to Him!

As far as I know at least, I'm open to correction.

In Christ,
Ivan
« Last Edit: September 17, 2007, 12:27:12 AM by Ukiemeister » Logged

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« Reply #2 on: September 17, 2007, 12:20:29 AM »

Yah...

Ive even seen some pics of Christ depicted as a Japanese person...
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« Reply #3 on: September 17, 2007, 12:27:44 AM »

I agree with Ukiemeister.  I don't think icons are intended to be like photographs, depicting the way a person or a scene would have actually appeared.  I always thought of icons as being things we "read" rather than "look at."  The halo in an example of this.  We don't believe, of course, that Christ or other people walked around with gold disks attached to their heads.  It's a symbol which depicts someone's holiness.

Who knows what Christ actually look like?  In a sense it really doesn't matter.  When you focus on an icon you are connecting with Christ spiritually, rather than looking at a picture of Him.  The connection you make with Christ is really what matters most.

Also, don't let Protestants trip you up about icons.  I always felt their position denied the incarnation.  When Christ became incarnate He showed us His face, so to speak.  He became tangible, someone that humanity could touch and see.  Saying icons are bad is sort of like saying that God never became incarnate.  It is like saying the New Testament never happened and that God is still "faceless" like in the Old Testament.  At least that is how I see it.  
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« Reply #4 on: September 17, 2007, 12:34:57 AM »


Also, don't let Protestants trip you up about icons.  I always felt their position denied the incarnation.  When Christ became incarnate He showed us His face, so to speak.  He became tangible, someone that humanity could touch and see.  Saying icons are bad is sort of like saying that God never became incarnate.  It is like saying the New Testament never happened and that God is still "faceless" like in the Old Testament.  At least that is how I see it.  

Good reply, however it's much more than that.  Protestants, most especially Evangelicals, are quasi-gnostics when it comes to this world regarding the flesh and creation as near demonic and only the soul worth saving.  Their position on icons is congruent with their positions on the mysteries such as baptism and the eucharist, which use the elements of creation which are made holy from union with the Holy Trinity.  The Orthodox Church is the only Christian Church which makes it very clear that creation is still good, though corrupted.  RCs and Protestants will see creation only in terms of corruption, hence their elevation of Scripture which is divine.  Of course, you could always tell a Protestant that Scripture itself is an icon of the uncreated God.  I wonder how they'd respond to that.
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« Reply #5 on: September 17, 2007, 12:35:54 AM »

I would also respond to said pastor by charging that such a stance is derogatory towards the Icon. As Iconography and Church Architecture is considered a source of Holy Tradition-which I suppose is a moot point as any Protestant pastor worth his salt is required to rain fire and brimstone down on the concept of Holy Tradition-it is representative of the Holy Spirit in the Church.

I also would say that each icon speaks to a lesson we should learn (i.e. that Christ is everywhere in everyone, irrespective of race).

In Christ,
Ivan
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« Reply #6 on: September 17, 2007, 04:17:36 AM »

he asked this too...

"Does not an icon match with what the old Testament refers to as "graven images'?..."
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« Reply #7 on: September 17, 2007, 04:31:37 AM »

he asked this too...

"Does not an icon match with what the old Testament refers to as "graven images'?..."

Answer: No, an icon does not match what the OT refers to as 'graven images'...
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« Reply #8 on: September 17, 2007, 07:10:33 AM »

This commandment was to stop  FALSE images of things in heaven but things that have been revealed to us in physical froms (e.g Jesus and the Saints) and symbolic forms (Holy spirit "dove", Cherubim "baby", Seraphim "6 winged humanoid") these things we can represent in icons and paintings as was done in the Old Testament by the Israelites how they represented the cherubim as babies that were painted (or carved im not sure) on the side of the arc of the covenant. So the answer is a definite NO. Although I think that these pastors must think fools of 1.5 billion people (Orthodox + Catholic) to think that no one in the whole religion has seen the link between Icons and "graven images" like its some from of new idea!!
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« Reply #9 on: September 17, 2007, 07:42:41 AM »

The classic text on this issue, sohma_hatori, is the 8th century text: "On Holy Images" by St. John Damascene which you can find translated into English here: http://www.balamand.edu.lb/theology/Joicons.htm
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« Reply #10 on: September 17, 2007, 07:49:06 AM »

I have come across a site called Orthodox Outlet for Dogmatic Enquiries. They deal with issues of the Orthodox church. Here is an article on icons.

http://www.oodegr.com/english/ekklisia/praktikes/eikones1.htm
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« Reply #11 on: September 17, 2007, 08:36:40 AM »

My priest mentioned once that it's like having pictures of friends and family.  You wouldn't consider it idolatry to have pictures of your grandmother hanging in your house, so how are pictures of Christ, the saints, etc. any different?  I think, too, that Protestants prove their disbelief that the soul lives on after death when they say, "How can you pray to the saints?"  My understanding is that we are asking the saints for their prayers, not praying to them as if they were God.  They're much more godlike and much closer to God than we are (or to speak for myself, I am) so the idea is that they can offer prayer more purely than we can.  Back to the idea that no one knows how Christ looked, there were plenty of people who ate with Christ, spoke with Christ, were healed by Christ, etc.  St. Luke himself wrote the first icon, if I remember correctly, and since he had been with Christ he probably had a good idea of what he looked like.  But again, icons are not meant to be a scientifically accurate portrayal of the saint, but a sort of visual aid for prayer.  There are also people who believe that icons should not be too realistic as you tend to focus more on the icon itself rather than the saint or your prayer. 

Quote
Protestants, most especially Evangelicals, are quasi-gnostics when it comes to this world regarding the flesh and creation as near demonic and only the soul worth saving.  Their position on icons is congruent with their positions on the mysteries such as baptism and the eucharist, which use the elements of creation which are made holy from union with the Holy Trinity. 

I agree with you, Scamandrius.  As a former protestant, I've heard many a sermon that everything of this world is vile and fallen and that we, as Christians, may deign to step foot in it as long as we remember not to let it taint us.  Nearly opposite of the Orthodox view, I believe. 

By the way, sohma_hatori, completely off topic here, but love the screen name.  Are you a fan of Fruits Basket, I take it?
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« Reply #12 on: September 17, 2007, 08:49:20 AM »

My friends in Christ...

Has any of you encountered the protestant denomination called in the Philippines as
"Iglesia ni Kristo" (Church of Christ)?

Im afraid of their growing influence, they seem to have attracted millions in just a few years! I fear that they may soon outrun the Catholics which compromise 86% of my beloved countrymen. ive studied their doctrine out of curiosity, but was never really convinced. Why? They seek to return to what they call "the old way of the church', referring to the times of the preaching of St. Paul.. What they dont know is that the Church that was rooted in the places the Apostles have preached is now what we refer to as The Holy Orthodox Church.. I have a close friend who is about to be convinced by their heresies, he is a Catholic..

Their influence is strong, and I really am eager to oppose their heresies... They keep issueing (dont mind the spelling)  doctrines whose sole purpose is to "reveal" the "errors" of other religous sects, even MUslims! I know that this is not the way of Christ.. But everyday im exposed to their heresies I cant help but freak out and say bad replies to them...


Oh and EofK...yeah I am a fan, a devoted one.. I guess it isnt hard to geuss who my fav character is..
You watch it too?
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« Reply #13 on: September 17, 2007, 08:57:02 AM »

Hm... I haven't heard of this sect in a Filipino sense, but there are a ton of Churches of Christ in the US.  I wonder if this is a mission of the American Churches of Christ?  I'm afraid I don't know much about their beliefs, either.  My husband's family went to a Church of Christ for several years when he was young, so I'll have to ask him about it.  Interesting.  And dangerous for them to try to prove to the Muslims that they're wrong.  I've heard of several people who were executed by Muslims in the Phillipines without having antagonized them. 

Yep, I am very much a fan of Fruits Basket.  I'm trying to get Mr. Y hooked on it, but he seems to have only mild interest in it.  I *love* the episode that introduces Kagura.  I can't decide which character I like the most... they all have really interesting personalities.  Either Yuki or Kagura.  Smiley
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« Reply #14 on: September 17, 2007, 09:00:48 AM »

There founder (reputed to be a gay) is a certain "Manalo" persons..

believed to have been the 2nd Christ...
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« Reply #15 on: September 17, 2007, 09:03:09 AM »

(Sorry for being out of topic)


Oh by the way Eofk, I love Yuki too!

Both Hatori and Yuki! Although my personality is closest to Tohru my fav are still the both of them!

And Kagura? She's Hot!
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« Reply #16 on: September 17, 2007, 09:03:44 AM »

Wow, yeah, that's alarming when people start claiming to be the second coming of Christ.  Red flag!

Kagura just cracks me up... she tries so hard to be accepted and she ends up scaring people off.  What I really love about the show is that the characters are almost redeemed by Tohru's love for them.  They're so used to being outcast and holding on to the family secret that they're just amazed to have someone who knows about it and still loves them.  Great picture of Christ there.  I like, too, that Tohru carries around a picture of her mom and talks to it... it's an icon! 
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« Reply #17 on: September 17, 2007, 09:07:26 AM »

He's apostic like Jehovah's witnesses..

He convinced poeple that Christ's Church has err, (dissapeared?) pardon the term...
And that he has been sent from heaven to rebuild it...

How sad... How very sad...
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« Reply #18 on: September 17, 2007, 09:09:33 AM »

Her mom's pic... An icon.. Whoah! never relized that...

Indeed, Tohru's a great example of what Christ wanted His people to be..

Perseverant in the Good, Hoping and the Good, and Doing the Good...

Can we consider a Saint Tohru? HAhaha!  Cheesy
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« Reply #19 on: September 17, 2007, 09:27:31 AM »

The Iglesia ni Christo are nontrinitarian and deny the Divinity of Christ. Take that as you will.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iglesia_Ni_Cristo

The Links sections has links for and against.

I think the confusion on icons arises that there is no way to simply explain the difference between veneration and worhsip, and thus praying to the saints versus asking for their prayers.
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« Reply #20 on: September 17, 2007, 09:40:03 AM »

Isnt it a great irony?

They call it Iglesia ni KRISTO
yet they deny Christ...
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« Reply #21 on: September 17, 2007, 09:51:55 AM »

sohma_hatori, the entire Christian Church depicts Christ in almost exactly the same way in all icons.

Has it occured to this Protestant that there might actually be a reason why the whole world knows what Christ looks like?

The Mandela of Edessa (sp?) is well known for showing Christ's appearance and a very early icon even includes the flower pattern found on it in the halo about the Lord.

An icon is obviously not a graven image as it is not even graven Wink To be graven it must be carved. Now who carves icons Huh The discussion around this topic largely seems to have taken place already though so I'll leave it at that.

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« Reply #22 on: September 17, 2007, 11:01:41 AM »

I don't recommend reading Catholic apologetics too much if one is Orthodox because they simplify our arguments when arguing against us, but nevertheless, Karl Keating has debated and written against this cult. You may want to do an internet search on him.
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« Reply #23 on: September 17, 2007, 11:31:07 AM »

Just as an aside, when speaking of returning to the church at the time of St. Paul that would be pretty difficult unless we can rediscover the following historical tendancies: 

lechery, open debauchery, open prostitution, animal sacrifice daily for various rites, open gnosticism and zealots, multicultural socity all within 70 miles of each other, a domineering empire which can strike and kill you at a whim, and persecution which slaughtered thousands. 

Let me know if that pastor can replecate any of these.   Wink Grin
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« Reply #24 on: September 17, 2007, 11:19:50 PM »

Hm... I haven't heard of this sect in a Filipino sense, but there are a ton of Churches of Christ in the US.  I wonder if this is a mission of the American Churches of Christ?  I'm afraid I don't know much about their beliefs, either.  My husband's family went to a Church of Christ for several years when he was young, so I'll have to ask him about it.  Interesting.

There founder (reputed to be a gay) is a certain "Manalo" persons..

believed to have been the 2nd Christ...

The Iglesia ni Christo are nontrinitarian and deny the Divinity of Christ. Take that as you will.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iglesia_Ni_Cristo
Most of the Churches of Christ in the USA are part of the Campbellite movement, one of the many restorationist movements to come out of the US of the early 19th Century.  AFAIK, they have always been Trinitarian, even though their model of doctrine is something like "no creed but Christ, no word but the Bible".  (My godfather is former Church of Christ, so I hear quite a bit about them and their way of faith and life.)  This Iglesia ni Christo sounds like something different.
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« Reply #25 on: September 17, 2007, 11:49:28 PM »



Let me know if that pastor can replecate any of these.   Wink Grin

Open Prostitution? Oh thats common in my country, Ill bet that pastor will the say the same...
But you know, if you read the article that Ukeimeister presented above, it'll indicate locations like a "temple" and a "tabernacle, kinda like in a Jewish setting..

They keep refuting the Catholics here in my country saying that God is a Spirit and that to worship HIM is to worship Him in Spirit... Another great irony because they dont even recognize the Holy Trinity, so how can they even get a clue of worshipping the True Holy and Magnificent before all ages Triune God? Especially that they believe this Manalo person to be the 2nd Christ!
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« Reply #26 on: September 18, 2007, 06:25:49 PM »

Thank you for your response.  Forgive me for being so sarcastic.  I sometimes do not catch myself being so rude and uncarring. 

I would say that like you said, the basic principles of the Holy Trinity should be a good argument here, if argument is indeed what you are looking for. 

There are other teaching tools as well...humility and prayerfullness can take you just as far as a golden mouth. 
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« Reply #27 on: September 18, 2007, 09:34:15 PM »

Two things Sohma, no three:

1. - Here in the USA many Protestant churches will have pictures of Christ in a Sunday School room. He is usually very Caucasian/American, just came out of the shower an blow dryed his hair looking. Handsome to say the least. Although they do not veneratet his picture in the same sense that we venerate icons, it is an icon nonetheless.

2. In many African American households there is a pictuer of Dr. Martin Luther King. Again, this photo is not venerated. But his picture or likeness reminds us what he stood for and the struggle that he led for equal rights. Same as an icon would remind us or teach us of the qualities or character of a particular saint(s).

3. - No use arguing with non-Orthodox. It is pearls before swine unless they are genuinely seeking to understand Orthodoxy.

Hope this helps
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« Reply #28 on: September 18, 2007, 09:41:37 PM »

Here in the USA many Protestant churches will have pictures of Christ in a Sunday School room. He is usually very Caucasian/American, just came out of the shower an blow dryed his hair looking. Handsome to say the least. Although they do not veneratet his picture in the same sense that we venerate icons, it is an icon nonetheless.

Very true.  It has also become popular to have pictures of The Laughing Jesus.  No one likes the idea of the somber, man-of-sorrows Jesus any more, so they go with the "It's all good" Jesus.  Granted, I don't think Jesus was a sourpuss or anything, but there's a reason why most of our icons depict him with a serious look.
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« Reply #29 on: September 18, 2007, 09:51:07 PM »

Even in Catholic shops here in the Philippines,there are pictures of Christ holding a mobile phone and asking, "Will you be my textmate?". I laughed, coz it was like an invitation to prayer just said in a rather radical manner..
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« Reply #30 on: September 18, 2007, 09:54:48 PM »

Two things Sohma, no three:

1. - Here in the USA many Protestant churches will have pictures of Christ in a Sunday School room. He is usually very Caucasian/American, just came out of the shower an blow dryed his hair looking. Handsome to say the least. Although they do not veneratet his picture in the same sense that we venerate icons, it is an icon nonetheless.

2. In many African American households there is a pictuer of Dr. Martin Luther King. Again, this photo is not venerated. But his picture or likeness reminds us what he stood for and the struggle that he led for equal rights. Same as an icon would remind us or teach us of the qualities or character of a particular saint(s).

3. - No use arguing with non-Orthodox. It is pearls before swine unless they are genuinely seeking to understand Orthodoxy.

Hope this helps

About the third one, yeah youre right...
Although the term "swine" is quite you know, degrading (no offense)...
I have two close friends of mine who knew about my wish to be baptized into the Orthodox Faith...
Since then we have been talking about it...
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« Reply #31 on: September 18, 2007, 11:16:20 PM »

"If we attempted to make an image of the invisible God, this would be sinful indeed. It is impossible to portray one who is without body: invisible, uncircumscribed, and without form. Again, if we made images of men and believed them to be gods, and adored them as if they were so, we would be truly impious. We do neither of these things. But we are not mistaken if we make images of God incarnate, who was seen on earth in the flesh, associated with men, and in His unspeakable goodness assumed the nature, feeling, form, and color of our flesh. For we yearn to see how He looked as the apostle says, 'Now we see through a glass darkly.' Now the icon is also a dark glass, fashioned according to the limitations of our physical nature. Though the mind wear itself out with effort, it can never cast away its bodily nature,"

St. John of Damascus.
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« Reply #32 on: September 19, 2007, 01:34:48 PM »

Quote
um.. I mean no offense by this, but there was a protestant pastor who attacked the RC saying this..

"If your Icons and statues of Christ are really true, and are worth respecting, how sure are you that what you are depicting is really Christ Himself? Are you sure that that is really how Christ looks like?"


Has anyone have anything to say about this?

According to tradition this icon was painted by the hand of St. Luke the Evangelist. The icon is pictured on the left of the website. I have two copies at home.  http://www.panagiaprousiotissa.org/history.html
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« Reply #33 on: September 19, 2007, 07:12:45 PM »

While sitting in my Presbyterian church pondering the issue of icons, I looked around, saw the pictures on the stained glass windows, and saw a picture of a very white American Jesus on the Powerpoint screen.

I also remembered these pictures from childhood:
http://www.picturesofjesus4you.com/images/christ_at_hearts_door_sallman.jpg
http://www.picturesofjesus4you.com/images/head_of_christ_sall.jpg

If Protestants have their own icons, then why not the Orthodox?
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« Reply #34 on: September 19, 2007, 07:14:36 PM »

Both of those images were used in my 1950's Orthodox Sunday school classes.
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« Reply #35 on: September 19, 2007, 07:26:44 PM »

I do love those old pictures.  Smiley
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« Reply #36 on: September 19, 2007, 07:33:29 PM »

I do love those old pictures.  Smiley

Ahem...'vintage'... Cheesy
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« Reply #37 on: September 19, 2007, 07:45:43 PM »

The second picture was also very popular in ... ahem... vintage ( Grin) Baptist churches, but once they tried to get hip with the kids, most of them hid that picture in their attics.  Now you get the Fonzie Jesus, if anything.

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« Reply #38 on: September 19, 2007, 07:46:48 PM »

Forget my 'vintage' comment, please.
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« Reply #39 on: September 19, 2007, 07:48:35 PM »

LOL
Sorry, no offense meant.  Smiley 

By the way, I should have said "Buddy" Jesus, not Fonzie.  Same difference. 
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« Reply #40 on: September 19, 2007, 07:51:17 PM »

Isn't that Buddy Jesus from the Roman Catholics? I would certainly be surprised if it's actually Protestant in origin, since the figurine has a rather conspicuous Sacred Heart.
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« Reply #41 on: September 19, 2007, 07:52:42 PM »

Yep, it is the Buddy Jesus. 
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« Reply #42 on: September 20, 2007, 10:52:18 PM »

The problem is that... These people dont consider them as ICONS thus they stil stick to the belief that they are not veneratig n nor worshipping them...
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« Reply #43 on: September 20, 2007, 11:38:33 PM »

  Of course, you could always tell a Protestant that Scripture itself is an icon of the uncreated God.  I wonder how they'd respond to that.

yes, take their Bible and place it on the floor and place your foot on it and see what they would do. That would be very difficult to do and I don't know if I could pull it off. I suppose it would be justified to make a point. But it would make a protestant realize their own veneration of the Bible. We venerate icons in the same way. Maybe that might help them distinguish the difference between veneration (of icons, saints, the Theotokos, holy angels) and worship (reserved for the Holy Trinity alone)
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« Reply #44 on: September 20, 2007, 11:40:56 PM »

While sitting in my Presbyterian church pondering the issue of icons, I looked around, saw the pictures on the stained glass windows, and saw a picture of a very white American Jesus on the Powerpoint screen.

I also remembered these pictures from childhood:
http://www.picturesofjesus4you.com/images/christ_at_hearts_door_sallman.jpg
http://www.picturesofjesus4you.com/images/head_of_christ_sall.jpg

If Protestants have their own icons, then why not the Orthodox?


Where did you find those? I also grew up with those as a protestant!
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« Reply #45 on: September 20, 2007, 11:42:45 PM »

Isn't that Buddy Jesus from the Roman Catholics? I would certainly be surprised if it's actually Protestant in origin, since the figurine has a rather conspicuous Sacred Heart.

I always thought it was from that movie Dogma?
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« Reply #46 on: September 20, 2007, 11:44:04 PM »

yes, take their Bible and place it on the floor and place your foot on it and see what they would do. That would be very difficult to do and I don't know if I could pull it off. I suppose it would be justified to make a point. But it would make a protestant realize their own veneration of the Bible. We venerate icons in the same way. Maybe that might help them distinguish the difference between veneration (of icons, saints, the Theotokos, holy angels) and worship (reserved for the Holy Trinity alone)
What a great point, BrotherAidan. I might use the illustration the next time I discuss this with a Protestant.
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« Reply #47 on: September 20, 2007, 11:46:38 PM »

The second picture was also very popular in ... ahem... vintage ( Grin) Baptist churches, but once they tried to get hip with the kids, most of them hid that picture in their attics.  Now you get the Fonzie Jesus, if anything.



this looks like the Burger King without the crown!
creepy!
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« Reply #48 on: September 20, 2007, 11:48:05 PM »

I always thought it was from that movie Dogma?
Actually, I think you're both right. The director/writer, Kevin Smith(?) was raised as a Catholic, though I don't think he practices any longer. The movie is pretty blasphemous.
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« Reply #49 on: September 21, 2007, 03:16:51 AM »

Can we conclude then that Icons in many other forms, are necesarry and in some ways "inert" in man's search for God?
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« Reply #50 on: September 21, 2007, 07:55:46 AM »

Actually, I think you're both right. The director/writer, Kevin Smith(?) was raised as a Catholic, though I don't think he practices any longer. The movie is pretty blasphemous.
It is, but as we are so fond of saying here, a stopped clock...

I think the "Buddy Jesus" idea is exactly what's wrong with the West. The feeling is that what is newer is better; if people don't like something about the church, change it to appease them. It's this "seeker-sensitive" sh** that causes people like Kevin Smith to reject the Church totally. I'm glad to see Pope Benedict reversing that trend. I've long said that the West has good intentions; the problem is that what they do accomplishes the opposite of what they want to happen. We need to see a return to tradition in all of Christianity; the Pope has the visibility to possibly be able to effect that.
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« Reply #51 on: September 21, 2007, 08:07:08 AM »

y-man

right on bro!
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« Reply #52 on: September 21, 2007, 08:13:58 AM »

Actually, as my daughter is fond of saying, people will always be attracted to the new and different. So those groups will always have a following; however,what will be their long term impact. When you reduce your faith to me and Jesus and the Bible alone it is easy to concentrate on only the here and now. You put down shallow roots. Tradition becomes meaningless as does leaving a legacy. This is endemic in American thinking which is a new culture. We love the new and different. it's funny cause I live in Philadelphia and am reminded daily of the struggle to create this country as I am surrounded by icons from the revolutionary era and monuments to the founders' fame and glory. Tradition if you will.
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« Reply #53 on: September 21, 2007, 11:10:10 AM »

this looks like the Burger King without the crown!
creepy!

LOL!  You're right, it does!  Plot thickens....
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« Reply #54 on: September 21, 2007, 11:15:01 AM »

I think the "Buddy Jesus" idea is exactly what's wrong with the West. The feeling is that what is newer is better; if people don't like something about the church, change it to appease them. It's this "seeker-sensitive" sh** that causes people like Kevin Smith to reject the Church totally. I'm glad to see Pope Benedict reversing that trend. I've long said that the West has good intentions; the problem is that what they do accomplishes the opposite of what they want to happen. We need to see a return to tradition in all of Christianity; the Pope has the visibility to possibly be able to effect that.

I wonder if this is why there's currently a surge toward Orthodoxy.  It's unknown to so many people that it seems new and different; they just happened to stumble on the one church that hasn't tried to keep up with the Joneses.  And amen to getting rid of the "seeker-sensitive" mentality.  So many churches of that sort don't really make their church accessible to seekers, but dumb it down so that no one could possibly be offended by it.  Personally, if I'm offended by something from the church, I try to look at myself first.  I'm probably the one with the problem.
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« Reply #55 on: September 21, 2007, 04:50:53 PM »

Personally, if I'm offended by something from the church, I try to look at myself first.  I'm probably the one with the problem.
This is a response of repentance. But in Protestant churches preaching that I am already saved, what incentive is there for me to repent? Furthermore, if I am saved, I am perfect, and therefore the problem must lie with the other person. Arrogance is the corollary to the Calvinist doctrine of salvation.
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« Reply #56 on: September 21, 2007, 07:17:16 PM »

Where did you find those? I also grew up with those as a protestant!

A little searching with Google.  I think I used the Images search.
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« Reply #57 on: September 21, 2007, 11:59:00 PM »

This is a response of repentance. But in Protestant churches preaching that I am already saved, what incentive is there for me to repent? Furthermore, if I am saved, I am perfect, and therefore the problem must lie with the other person. Arrogance is the corollary to the Calvinist doctrine of salvation.

Arrogance, correct. But there is alot of guilt in that religion:
1. you're not 100% sure you're one of the elect; arrogance thinking you probably are, but doubt in private moments wondering if you really are.
2. total depravity makes one think one is pretty scummy, and everyone else too
3. there is a certain legalism that when you don't live up, you feel guilty
4. theological arrogance because Calvinists are truly among evangelicalisms best scholars and thinkers; there can be some incipient guilt because it is such a cerebral faith and can be lacking in emotion, so guilt over not being more warm spritiually
5. guilt from feeling one doesn't measure up to the hard, cold rationalistic theology and doctrinal triumphalism of some the Calvinist vanguard
6. no sacrament of confession to know you are forgiven

At least that was my experience in that community; I didn't understand # 6 until I became Orthodox

The discussion about Confession that has flowed from the 6th point has been given its own thread

Re: Confession
http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,12854.0.html

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« Reply #58 on: September 22, 2007, 12:04:46 AM »

A little searching with Google.  I think I used the Images search.


thanks!
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