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carpo-rusyn
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« on: May 23, 2003, 07:21:14 PM »

Christos Voskrese,

I thought this section would be the best place to put this question as I am a recent convert to Orthodoxy.

I am a member of A.C.R.O.D. and while the liturgy at our parish is in English 95% of the time every once in awhile we use Church Slavonic.  The Resurrection Tropar is in Slavonic in our diocesan prayer book and I am learning this by listening to the rest of the congregation.  I'd like to learn the Trisagion and some other key parts of the liturgy.  Can anyone recommend a good book that might help me?  I don't want to get into grammar but just learn pronunciation.
Thanks
Carpo-Rusyn
(or a better user name might be "new Carpo-Rusyn")
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TonyS
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« Reply #1 on: May 23, 2003, 09:02:55 PM »

Voistinnu Voskrese!

Dear Carpo-Rusyn,

To the best of my knowledge all of the book out there dealing with Church Slavonic approach it a little more indepth than what you want.  

The Rusyn and Ukrainian pronunciation is diffierent from the Great Russian which is what most books presume.  Also most books presume you are reading Cyrillic and I am presuming you are reading it in translitteration according to the Slovak system.  

A couple of years ago I created a hand out for my (then) Sunday School class, if I can find it I will let you know.  

If you remember that what you have is already a translitteration and that the values of the letters will be the same except when they occur as a dipthong that may help.  

Tony
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and if everbody's a sinner then everybody can be a winner
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« Reply #2 on: May 23, 2003, 10:02:41 PM »

The Church Slavonic E-tutor is pretty basic and a lot of fun. Rather than just text, it's good to actually hear what one is trying to learn.

http://www.orthodoxepubsoc.org/etutorindex.htm

Good luck!
Demetri
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TonyS
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« Reply #3 on: May 23, 2003, 11:24:01 PM »

Aristocles,

Christ is Risen!

I think that your suggestion of the E-tutor in this case will not work for the following reasons:

1) ACROD uses Latinica not Cyrillic/Kyrilica.  So, not  -Ñ-Ç-+-ü-é-+-ü-è but Christos.

2) E-tutor pronunciation is Great Russian.  ACROD uses Carpatho-Russian/Ukrainian pronunciation.   So,  -ô-+-ü-+-+-¦-+ -+-+-+-+-+-â-¦ is not Gospodi pomiluy (with the -o- flattened to an -a- in pomiluy) but Hospodi pomiluj (using CR translitteration).  So to learn that  -ô = G is fine where things are pronounced like that, such is not the case among the CRs and the Ukrainians where -ô is pronounced like H.

Tony
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I'd be a fool to surrender when I know I can be a contender
and if everbody's a sinner then everybody can be a winner
...
I'll see you when yo
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« Reply #4 on: May 24, 2003, 07:56:12 AM »

......
I think that your suggestion of the E-tutor in this case will not work for the following reasons:

1) ACROD uses Latinica not Cyrillic/Kyrilica.  So, not  -Ñ-Ç-+-ü-é-+-ü-è but Christos.

2) E-tutor pronunciation is Great Russian.  ACROD uses Carpatho-Russian/Ukrainian pronunciation.....  

Tony
OK, Tony...
I've learned something. What do you expect from a Greek anyway? Smiley
I've recently begun attending an ACROD parish and spend more effort mentally translating the English I hear there into Greek so I can figure about where we are in a similar, but not quite same liturgy. Silly to do I know. I've only heard one prayer in "Slavonic" in the past month. That and my zero knowledge of Russian (Great or not-so-Great) pretty much precludes my awareness of your point .
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« Last Edit: May 24, 2003, 08:08:52 AM by Aristocles » Logged

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« Reply #5 on: May 24, 2003, 11:41:08 AM »

carpo-rusyn,

Does your ACROD pew book have the prayers in both languages? If so, all you have to do is learn the Slovak version of the Latin alphabet and where the stresses fall in the words.

Quick rundown of Slovak accent marks:

c^ (turn the carat upside down and move it over the letter) is pronounced 'ch'. (Cyrillic -ç)

+í = 'sh' (Cyrillic -ê)

+íc^ = this is really a 'sh-ch' sound like in Russian (Cyrillic -ë) but the difference is slight. (I can't hear it when Russians pronounce it.) Ruthenian-American congregations pronounce it as 'sh' and that's fine.

++ = 'zh' (z as in azure or s as in measure - Cyrillic -¦)

c = 'ts' (Cyrillic -Ã¥)

ch = 'kh' or in practice with Ruthenian-American congregations, 'k' (Cyrillic x)

j = consonant 'y'. ja = 'yah' (Cyrillic -Å), je = 'yeh', ji = 'yee', ju = 'yoo' (Cyrillic -Ä)

y = an 'i' sound (Cyrillic -ï), functionally the same as i when pronounced by Ruthenian-American congregations.

You'll also see some letters have apostrophes after them: n', t', d', l' and r'. In Slavonic and Russian (' = Cyrillic mark -î, mjagkij znak, 'soft sign'), and in Slovak, that 'palatizes' (softens) the sound of the letter before it, so n' has kind of a 'ny' (+¦) sound, t' a 'ty' or 'ts' sound, d' a 'dy' or 'ds' sound and l' a 'w' sound. (The difference in the r is so slight I don't know how to describe it.) Also, properly l'u represents the Cyrillic letters -+-Ä, 'lyoo'.

But in Ruthenian-American congregations you'll probably hear them simply pronounced n, t (except t'a, which is 'tyah'), d, l and r, and 'loo' for l'u.

You'll see 'i, too - in Russian that has a 'yeh' sound (and used to have a special letter - not used in Russian since 1918) but the pronunciation you want to learn just gives it an 'ee' sound, like i and y.

Vowels are pretty simple: a, e, i, o, u are ah, eh, ee, oh, oo.

You can learn where the stresses are in the words by listening - they aren't marked with accent marks.

But to get you started, here are the very first Slavic prayers I ever learnt, written phonetically in the accent you want to learn:

The sign of the cross: Vo EEMyah otSAH ee SINNa ee svyahTAH-ho DOOha, ahMEEN.

Holy God, Holy Mighty, Holy Immortal, have mercy on us: SvyahTEE BOzheh, svyahTEE KREEPkee, svyahTEE bezMERTnee, poMEElooy nahs.

Glory Be: SLAHvah otSOO ee SINNu ee svyahTOHmoo DOOho, ee NEEnee ee PREESno ee vo VEEkee veeKOV, ahMEEN.

Our Father: OTcheh nahsh EEzheh yes-SEE nah neh-beh-SEEK, dah svyahTEETsyah EEMyah tvoYEH, dah preeYEEdet TSARSTvee-yeh tvoYEH, dah BOO-det VOLyah tvoYAH YAHko nah neh-beh-SEE ee nah zemLEE. Kleeb nahsh nahSOOSHnee dahzhd nahm dness, ee oh-STAHvee nahm DOLhee NAH-shah, YAHko-zheh ee mee oh-stah-VLYAH-yem dolzh-nee-KOM NAH-sheem. Ee neh veh-DEE nahs vo ees-koo-SHEN-ee-yeh, no eez-BAH-vee nahs ot loo-KAH-vah-ho.

And a few more, for the season:

Christ is risen from the dead: KreeSTOS voh-SKRES-seh eez MERTveek, SMERTeeyoo SMERT poh-PRAHV, ee SOOsheem vo HRO-bee zheeVOHT dah-ro-vahv.

(Christ is risen from the dead, trampling down death by death, and upon those in the tombs bestowing life.)

Christ is risen: KreeSTOS voh-SKRES-seh!
Indeed He is risen: Voh-EEST-ee-noo voh-SKRES-seh!

Have fun!
« Last Edit: May 24, 2003, 12:28:16 PM by Serge » Logged

Daniel AJ
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« Reply #6 on: July 21, 2003, 08:43:28 PM »

You might tracking down the Byzantine Catholic Liturgy book

"The Divine Liturgy," A Book of Prayer, by Rev. Wm. Levkulic, 1978, Byzantine Seminary Press.

This book is a bi-lingual liturgy book, plus the Sunday/Feastday Tones, Propers in both English and transliterated slavonic (ie: Latin letters for slavonic words).  I think the ACROD current liturgical book is a spin-off of this book.  I think the book might be out-of-print, but if you can track one down, it would be worth it.  Try calling a local Byz. Cath. parish and ask if they have a spare one, or try www.abebooks.com  and type "Levkulic" in author, and see what shows.

Personally, I prefer the Cyrillic alphabet, once one learns it, it's actually easier to read than the transliterated (some sounds in Slavonic you just can't make in transliterated English).

Hope this info. helps.  

Daniel
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TonyS
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« Reply #7 on: July 21, 2003, 09:59:51 PM »

You can also get the Ch-+ib Du+íi by Aleksandr Duchnovy-ì (just a Malyj zbornik really) from http://holoviak.com/acatalog/Holoviaks_Books___Bibles_18.html
albeit in smaller format.
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Tómame como al tequila, de un golpe y sin pensarlo. - Ricardo Arjona

I'd be a fool to surrender when I know I can be a contender
and if everbody's a sinner then everybody can be a winner
...
I'll see you when yo
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