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prayingserb
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ЧУВА БОГ СРБИНА СВОГ


« on: September 07, 2007, 02:38:40 AM »

I have been wondering lately, how can one know for sure that our orthodox saints are certianly saved? The reason I ask this question is because by a certian person I am close to, I am always asked, '' how can you be sure that the saint you are asking for prayers is definately saved? What is they are not saved? '' and then I have the whole, '' what about the saint the catholic church recently accepted, he was responsible for many war crimes in the balkans etc, and he is meant to be saved? ''

I hope this question is making sence. I have much trouble with these sort of questions from people, and the more I think of them, the harder it is for me to get my head around them. I hope someone can help me with this.

May God bless you all.
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« Reply #1 on: September 07, 2007, 04:58:45 AM »

Maybe this could help you.

http://www.goarch.org/en/ourfaith/articles/article8044.asp
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« Reply #2 on: September 07, 2007, 08:32:04 AM »

What a great article! It filled in some of the gaps in my knowledge.

Thomas
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« Reply #3 on: September 08, 2007, 01:41:46 AM »

I have been wondering lately, how can one know for sure that our orthodox saints are certianly saved? The reason I ask this question is because by a certian person I am close to, I am always asked, '' how can you be sure that the saint you are asking for prayers is definately saved? What is they are not saved? '' and then I have the whole, '' what about the saint the catholic church recently accepted, he was responsible for many war crimes in the balkans etc, and he is meant to be saved? ''
How can we be sure, in a rationalistic way, of anything touching on faith?
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« Reply #4 on: September 22, 2007, 09:00:10 AM »

thank you for your replies!

is there a fine line between the saints in the orthodox church and the catholic?
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« Reply #5 on: September 22, 2007, 10:04:18 AM »

thank you for your replies!

is there a fine line between the saints in the orthodox church and the catholic?

If by fine do you call 1000 years of seperation fine?
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« Reply #6 on: September 22, 2007, 10:52:20 AM »

thank you for your replies!

is there a fine line between the saints in the orthodox church and the catholic?
Most of the saints before the separation are shared by the Orthodox and Catholics. Also, many of the Eastern saints after the schism would be considered holy by the Catholics, but largely remain unknown due to the lack of communication--and vice versa. In both cases, the criteria are holiness and Christ-likeness; those who are holy are recognized by all people, regardless of affiliation.
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« Reply #7 on: September 23, 2007, 04:38:58 PM »

There is also a difference how a Saint is declared or Glorified in the Orthodox Church as compared to the legal rule bound aopproach the Roman Catholic Church takes.  In Orthodoxy, it begins individually with people asking for prayers of a holy person who has reposed, gathers steam as the Sainst is locally venerated, and then finally when the Saint is Glorified by an Orthodox Church at the decree of the Synod of Bishops.

In the Roman Church, there is a different much more detaled process. Here are key facts about the canonization process by which the Roman Catholic Church makes a saint:

- Under normal Church rules, five years must pass after a person dies before the procedure for sainthood can even begin. Despite a person's reputation of holiness during his or her life, the process cannot begin until after death.

- The reigning pope has the authority to waive the five-year waiting period. Pope Benedict put John Paul on the fast track in May 2005, just two months after his predecessor died. John Paul himself had done the same for Mother Teresa, whose "cause" was begun just 14 months after her death in 1997.

- When the local bishop begins the "cause", the candidate for sainthood receives the title "Servant of God". A "postulator" is then appointed to help gather information from people who knew the candidate.

- One miracle is required after a candidate's death for the cause to move on to beatification. The miracle must be the result of a person praying to the candidate for intercession with God. Miracles are usually the healing of medical conditions that doctors are at a loss to explain.

- The candidate can then be beatified and declared a "blessed" of the church. Another distinct miracle is needed between beatification and canonization, or the conferring of sainthood.

- Parts of the Church's saint-making process go back several centuries. The procedure is detailed and often long. In the early Church, a simple acclamation sufficed.

Sources: Reuters; www.newadvent.org



The Orthodox Church still goes by simple acclamation or glorification.

Thomas
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« Reply #8 on: September 25, 2007, 06:56:26 AM »

thank you for your replies, it explianed a lot to me!

if to say, the catholic church recently makes a new saint, will the orthodox church follow by making that person a saint too? the reason im asking, is because of that certian saint that was accepted as a saint recently by the catholic church (I can't remember the name atm), yet he has a history of causing problems in the balkans to the Serbian people. will the orthodox church go and accept htat saint too?
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« Reply #9 on: September 25, 2007, 08:34:50 AM »

Probably not at present, who knows what would occur if the churches reunited.  Probably it would be a local saint versus a saint observed by the entire church. Orthodoxy has many of those local Saints, they just don't show on calendars of all jurisdictions. They are still saints just not as loved or observed as those the universal church observes.

Thomas
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« Reply #10 on: September 25, 2007, 08:47:19 AM »

Interesting topic. I have another dimension for you all re: saints. The other day I was speaking with a Protestant colleague about saints and happened to mention my patron Archangel Gabriel. My friend said Angels can't be saints because they're not even human. I told him that the word 'saint' takes on a somewhat different meaning in Protestantism than in the original church. I'm somewhat glad he didn't press for details because I'm not sure I completely understand it myself. Do we call some humans 'agios' (holy, saint) because they have reached the same level of faith and holiness as the angels and, therefore, we're simply calling them the human 'version' of an angel? If there's a better way of explaining why we call angels 'saints' I'd appreciate any input.

 In Christ,

 Gabriel
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« Reply #11 on: September 25, 2007, 08:52:09 AM »

Many Protestants  define Saint to be a member of the Chruch on earth (living or deceased). An example of this belief was the Mormon Cult that calls itself the Church of Jesus Christ of LATTER-DAY SAINTS to distinguish itself from the SAINTS or belivers of the early church.  Many protestant Churches in our area call their senior ministries/Sunday School fellowships SENIOR SAINTS.  Of course they would exclude the angels whom they see only as servants and messengers of God, not believers who struggle with sin.

Thomas
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« Reply #12 on: September 25, 2007, 02:34:15 PM »

Last question because I don't want to hijack the thread... why do we (Orthodox Christians) call certain angels 'saints'? And yes, I realize we're not the only one's to do so, but I wanted to be clear and specific in case our theologies are different. Thanks in advance...

 In Christ,
 
 Gabriel
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« Reply #13 on: September 25, 2007, 03:06:43 PM »

I've wondered that as well.  Every Greek icon I've seen of Michael the Archangel has "HO ARCHON" (in Greek, of course) instead of "HO HAGIOS".  Is it just in the English language that we call both "archons" and "hagios" by the title of "Saint"?
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« Reply #14 on: September 25, 2007, 03:16:35 PM »

I've wondered that as well.  Every Greek icon I've seen of Michael the Archangel has "HO ARCHON" (in Greek, of course) instead of "HO HAGIOS".  Is it just in the English language that we call both "archons" and "hagios" by the title of "Saint"?

You're probably reading "Archan" instead of "Archon" - which is short for "Archanggelos" or Archangel.  "Archon" is translated as leader or elder normally.
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« Reply #15 on: September 25, 2007, 03:18:05 PM »

The icon have I behind me right now has the letter omega after chi.
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« Reply #16 on: September 25, 2007, 03:25:17 PM »

Hmmm.... Well, it probably still stands for Archangel (it probably says Archon then as ARCHaNgelOs... scrambled order, but its the only thing that makes sense, since he would never be referred to as an Archon - none of the Saints or Angels are).
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« Reply #17 on: September 25, 2007, 03:25:48 PM »

Most of the saints before the separation are shared by the Orthodox and Catholics. Also, many of the Eastern saints after the schism would be considered holy by the Catholics, but largely remain unknown due to the lack of communication--and vice versa. In both cases, the criteria are holiness and Christ-likeness; those who are holy are recognized by all people, regardless of affiliation.


This is off topic, but didnt the Roman Catholics "de-saint" many of the pre-schism saints such as Patrick, Nicholas, Kevin, etc?
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« Reply #18 on: September 25, 2007, 03:29:02 PM »


This is off topic, but didnt the Roman Catholics "de-saint" many of the pre-schism saints such as Patrick, Nicholas, Kevin, etc?

Umm...no.  Where on earth did you hear that?  Some early saints were removed from the Roman Calendar in regards to "obligatory" feasts and what not (St. Christopher springs to mind), but people may still celebrate an optional memorial.

I imagine that everyone with an ounce of Irish blood would be baying for blood if St. Patrick were "de-sainted".
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« Reply #19 on: September 25, 2007, 03:39:22 PM »

Umm...no.  Where on earth did you hear that?  Some early saints were removed from the Roman Calendar in regards to "obligatory" feasts and what not (St. Christopher springs to mind), but people may still celebrate an optional memorial.

I imagine that everyone with an ounce of Irish blood would be baying for blood if St. Patrick were "de-sainted".

When I go home (I'm at the university library right now) I can dig out the book and cite it for ya. Smiley 

Oh yes, I'm not attacking Roman catholics or what not, I'm just curious whether its true or not.
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« Reply #20 on: September 25, 2007, 03:42:35 PM »

When I go home (I'm at the university library right now) I can dig out the book and cite it for ya. Smiley 

Oh yes, I'm not attacking Roman catholics or what not, I'm just curious whether its true or not.

Please do and I didn't think for a moment you were.  There are some crazy stories going around about the reorganization of the Roman Calendar.  I'm just curious where you got your info Smiley
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« Reply #21 on: September 25, 2007, 06:58:22 PM »

Some early saints were removed from the Roman Calendar in regards to "obligatory" feasts and what not (St. Christopher springs to mind), but people may still celebrate an optional memorial.

Why would the Roman Church not officially commemorate St. Christopher anymore?  That truly baffles me and angers me.  In case you want to know why, Christopher is my real name.  There, now all of you know.  Grin  HOwever, St. Christopher is still commemorated on May 11 (i think) on the Orthodox calendar and his hymns are still printed in the HTM menaion.
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« Reply #22 on: September 25, 2007, 07:13:13 PM »

I highly doubt that about St. Christopher because every time you go to a jewelery store (at least to everyone I've been in) there is always a pendant of the Theotokos and St. Christopher and there are no Orthodox in my country town only Catholics.
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« Reply #23 on: September 25, 2007, 07:29:24 PM »

HOwever, St. Christopher is still commemorated on May 11 (i think) on the Orthodox calendar and his hymns are still printed in the HTM menaion.

*ahem*

St Christopher the Great Martyr (potenitally the third greatest saint in all of Christianity) is celebrated everyday in my home and especially on May 9:

http://www.goarch.org/en/chapel/saints.asp?contentid=47
Quote
Apolytikion in the Fourth Tone
Thy Martyr, O Lord, in his courageous contest for Thee received the prize of the crowns of incorruption and life from Thee, our immortal God. For since he possessed Thy strength, he cast down the tyrants and wholly destroyed the demons' strengthless presumption. O Christ God, by his prayers, save our souls, since Thou art merciful.
Kontakion in the Fourth Tone
Thou who wast terrifying both in strength and in countenance, for thy Creator's sake thou didst surrender thyself willingly to them that sought thee; for thou didst persuade both them and the women that sought to arouse in thee the fire of lust, and they followed thee in the path of martyrdom. And in torments thou didst prove to be courageous. Wherefore, we have gained thee as our great protector, O great Christopher.
Reading:
Saint Christopher was at first named Reprobus. Seeing the Christians persecuted, he rebuked the tyrants for their cruelty. Soldiers were sent to bring him to appear before the ruler; but he converted them to Christ, and with them was baptized, receiving the name Christopher. After he appeared before the ruler, he was imprisoned and two harlots were sent to seduce him, but he converted them also, and encouraged them in their martyrdom. He was subjected to torments and finally beheaded in the days of Decius. Many marvellous and mythical things are said about him out of ignorance and superstition, one of which is that it is impossible for one to die suddenly from some unexpected cause on the day on which one looks at the Saint's icon. This is the origin of that proverb that is quoted in various quarters: "If on Christopher thou shouldst gaze, thou shalt safely wend life's ways." The etymology of his name, which means "Christ-bearer," has undoubtedly moved iconographers to depict him carrying the infant Jesus on his shoulders; it is completely erro-neous, however, to depict him, as some uninformed iconographers do, having the head of a dog, because of a statement in his life that he was dog-faced, by which is meant only that his countenance was exceedingly frightful to look upon.

The Latins celerate him on July 25. While he was 'downgraded' in terms of liturgical precedence, he is still venerated as well as retaining the capacity for medals, parishes being named, etc.
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« Reply #24 on: September 25, 2007, 09:25:09 PM »

Interesting topic. I have another dimension for you all re: saints. The other day I was speaking with a Protestant colleague about saints and happened to mention my patron Archangel Gabriel. My friend said Angels can't be saints because they're not even human. I told him that the word 'saint' takes on a somewhat different meaning in Protestantism than in the original church. I'm somewhat glad he didn't press for details because I'm not sure I completely understand it myself. Do we call some humans 'agios' (holy, saint) because they have reached the same level of faith and holiness as the angels and, therefore, we're simply calling them the human 'version' of an angel? If there's a better way of explaining why we call angels 'saints' I'd appreciate any input.

 In Christ,

 Gabriel



In Greek Agios means Holy. Christ, Angels and people can all be called holy. Wink
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