Christians and Racsim

[ozgeorge]

Why don't you guy's try skiing together?

[Αριστοκλής]

Nope. You've accused me of a falsehood - and that's the truth, for sure.

[Αριστοκλής]

Why don't you guy's try skiing together?

No thanks. Liquid water sports for me only.

[ozgeorge]

Gardening?....... Quilting?......

[Mo the Ethio]

Nope. You've accused me of a falsehood - and that's the truth, for sure.

I thought we were engaging in a rational debate. If you have a rebutal , please feel free to reply.

[ozgeorge]

I know. What about dressing up as Trekkies?

[Αριστοκλής]

Forget it. Hijack of this topic is over.
Mo wants to open another? Feel free.

[Mo the Ethio]

Why don't you guy's try skiing together?

Thanks for the thought, George. However , I also limit myself to liquid sports as well.....mainly of the drinkable
variety .

[Αριστοκλής]

Oh good...now taunt me! I can't join you due to medications 

[Mo the Ethio]

Forget it. Hijack of this topic is over.
Mo wants to open another? Feel free.

Hijacking the thread? Hardly. Racism and slavery go together like mom and apple pie (at least in America).

[Mo the Ethio]

Oh good...now taunt me! I can't join you due to medications 

   Sorry......no taunt intended.....I`ll have one for you though

[ozgeorge]

Hijacking the thread? Hardly. Racism and slavery go together like mom and apple pie (at least in America).

Yes, however you guys aren't debating slavery, but Honest Abe's role in it's abolition. Another topic for another thread.

[Mo the Ethio]

Yes, however you guys aren't debating slavery, but Honest Abe's role in it's abolition. Another topic for another thread.

Agreed.

[GabrieltheCelt]

when one has been the target of overt racial hatred and violence- and I have been.

Me too. When I was growing up in Kentucky, because I was the youngest in the appartments where we lived, the blacks would always pick on me. I got knocked down, pushed over (literally), had my school books kicked out of my hands daily, and almost every ride on the bus (to school and back to home) I was called everything from cracker to wonderbread. At first I was boiling with rage and felt sooo much better when I could tell the older white boys and watch them lay hell down on those black boys. Wow, I hadn't thought about that in a long time.
 I guess seeing the ghetto thug culture so prevalent with today's black youth reminds me of those days of being picked on.   

[GabrieltheCelt]

Try being a black man in America or anywhere really.

 Fr. Amde,

 I have a lot of respect for you because of your past posts. But, respectfully, this comment is a bit tired. I don't want to downplay the difficulties you've gone through because of color, but I don't see things as nearly like they were. And many black folks are just as racist as any Klansman. Surely you've read the writings of Elijah Muhammad and his black separatist movement The Black Muslims? How about the Black Panthers?

[PeterTheAleut]

To me the above statement is from the mind of a real bonifide racist....a bigot. This is a sick individual who has no God and thus need our prayers.

To make the general statement that such racism is not of God, in that the claim does not condemn any specific person explicitly, is a fair statement to make.  To claim, however, that a specific person, Abraham Lincoln, is a "sick individual who has no God" and is therefore headed to hell unless God has mercy on him in answer to our prayers, all because he meets your definition of a racist, is a condemnation of a person.  Neither you nor I can properly make this judgment, for only God is qualified to judge the hearts of men.  Maybe this is why Jesus commanded us in the Sermon on the Mount to not judge anyone in this way.

[Fr. David]

(NOTE: Lest you fear this post will lead into yet another Deo Vindice rant, it DOES tie into the OT at the end.)

As casualties mounted, Lincoln considered ending slavery one of the larger purposes the war might serve.

Yes, because he needed Britain and France's unflagging support.  As did the South, hence both sides' movements towards abolition.

It's interesting (you know, in that sick sort of way) that before the War even got started, Congress was ready to pass (and Lincoln ready to sign) a proposed 13th Amendment that read thus: "No amendment shall be made to the Constitution which will authorize or give to Congress the power to abolish or interfere, within any State, with the domestic institutions thereof, including that of persons held to labor or service by the laws of said State." 

Sad that the *only* reason slavery got abolished, in the end, was because one group of white men wanted to punish another group of white men by forcing them back into a Union at bayonet-point and decided to add insult to injury by promising all former slaves forty acres and a mule.

And we all know how well the noble North made good on that promise.   

Blacks were used, rather, in attempts to preserve both Southern Agrarianism and Northern Industrialism.  The fact that they were freed is good and right, though the circumstances for their being freed did not lead to their being valued (and actually led up to some of the current racial tensions we see today, imo).

Therefore, it behooves us to see racism for what it really is: the objectifying of one people by another people -- the making of the "objects" into pawns for the objectifiers' gains -- marginalizing, oppressing, and stereotyping them by any means necessary so that "our way of life" is not disturbed. 

[prodromas]

To make the general statement that such racism is not of God, in that the claim does not condemn any specific person explicitly, is a fair statement to make.  To claim, however, that a specific person, Abraham Lincoln, is a "sick individual who has no God" and is therefore headed to hell unless God has mercy on him in answer to our prayers, all because he meets your definition of a racist, is a condemnation of a person.  Neither you nor I can properly make this judgment, for only God is qualified to judge the hearts of men.  Maybe this is why Jesus commanded us in the Sermon on the Mount to not judge anyone in this way.

From a Mormon (Latter day saints) perpective the native americans were cursed with dark skin to show that they had wronged God so for them Racism could be "justified" as divine or even to Why the jewish people were chosen as special people by God.

[GabrieltheCelt]

 To see a man as being different than me is no crime or injustice; to see a man as inferior to me because of his skin color is indeed a travesty. If we're genuinely 'seeking the Kingdom first', we must all pray that this prejudice will be removed from our hearts and minds.

[Mo the Ethio]

Yes, because he needed Britain and France's unflagging support.  As did the South, hence both sides' movements towards abolition.



Sad that the *only* reason slavery got abolished, in the end, was because one group of white men wanted to punish another group of white men by forcing them back into a Union at bayonet-point and decided to add insult to injury by promising all former slaves forty acres and a mule.
 

Similar paralels could be drawn surrounding Constantine`s legalization of Christianity . He (Constantine) clearly had his doubts.
    
Who`s to say God is precluded from political expediency?

[Fr. David]

Similar paralels could be draw surrounding Constantine`s legalization of Christianity . He (Constantine) clearly had his doubts.

True, though since he was emperor, there was no questioning the legality of the move.  Although...
   

Who`s to say God is precluded from political expediency?

A very good point.  The Constitution is a wonderful document, and, while I think it should be followed as closely as possible, it ain't holy writ.

[Mo the Ethio]

   
 The Constitution is a wonderful document, and, while I think it should be followed as closely as possible, it ain't holy writ.

That , my friend , is a topic for another thread .

[Amdetsion]

Okay, firstly Abe wasn't President in 1858.  I'll defer to the rest of GiC's response to point out the historical inaccuracies.  Most american corporations, even the major ones, were not around in the 1850's or 1860's.  Historical inaccuracies, while not nullifying your argument, make one less likely to hear you out.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Now, as to racism:

I'm including 4 dictionary definitions for racism; all of them have the same 1st point (racism by thought or belief) and second/third points (racism in action).  Only the second points are illegal.  The first points can be considered immoral (I would qualify them as such), just be careful - we have to be just as hard on someone who is a racist in thought or belief, as we are on one who hates the poor, or the ill, or infirm, or family, etc.

(1)  rac·ism      /ˈreɪsɪzəm/ Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[rey-siz-uhm] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation
–noun
1.   a belief or doctrine that inherent differences among the various human races determine cultural or individual achievement, usually involving the idea that one's own race is superior and has the right to rule others.
2.   a policy, system of government, etc., based upon or fostering such a doctrine; discrimination.
3.   hatred or intolerance of another race or other races.
[Origin: 1865–70; < F racisme. See race2, -ism]

Racism. (n.d.). Dictionary.com Unabridged (v 1.1). Retrieved September 06, 2007, from Dictionary.com website: http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/Racism


(2)  rac·ism       (rā'sĭz'əm)  Pronunciation Key
n. 

   1. The belief that race accounts for differences in human character or ability and that a particular race is superior to others.
   2. Discrimination or prejudice based on race.


rac'ist adj. & n.

Racism. (n.d.). The American Heritage® Dictionary of the English Language, Fourth Edition. Retrieved September 06, 2007, from Dictionary.com website: http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/Racism

(3)  racism

noun
1.    the prejudice that members of one race are intrinsically superior to members of other races
2.    discriminatory or abusive behavior towards members of another race

Racism. (n.d.). WordNet® 3.0. Retrieved September 06, 2007, from Dictionary.com website: http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/Racism

(4)  racism

The belief that some races are inherently superior (physically, intellectually, or culturally) to others and therefore have a right to dominate them. In the United States, racism, particularly by whites against blacks, has created profound racial tension and conflict in virtually all aspects of American society. Until the breakthroughs achieved by the civil rights movement in the 1950s and 1960s, white domination over blacks was institutionalized and supported in all branches and levels of government, by denying blacks their civil rights and opportunities to participate in political, economic, and social communities.

[Chapter:] American Politics

Racism. (n.d.). The American Heritage® New Dictionary of Cultural Literacy, Third Edition. Retrieved September 06, 2007, from Dictionary.com website: http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/Racism

I never said that this guy was president in 1858. Read what was at the top of the statement. I put "President of the United States" under his name at the end to enforce the fact that the man who is more known as an American President can think that way. I may not have been clear on my intent. It seemed clear when I wrote it.

I do not need anyone to tell me to read Webster to find out the meaning of racism. I am a black man (as we are referred to these days) living in a country that has the world record on racism, bigotry and hate. All of which has been directed at black people living in this country first as slaves than no class citizens to the current 2nd class status. As such I have very clear understanding of racism.

Webster never spoke with me so his meaning of this word is to me good for reference purposes only and not what I consider the real meaning. To me to really know racsim it must have a life experience attached to it.

I was told in colledge by a group of my white "friends" that "you are really cool dude but you are black". Thus I was not allowed to go with them to Nova Scotia. This was not 1950 it was 1988.

lesson learned.

Check your facts on what American corporations that are the direct product of racism and slavery. There is a website maybe. I have an excellent book on the subject. It is burried in my archive so I do not have it available to give you the name.

Black slaves were on the money in America. Our image symbolised wealth.

This is too huge for this poster to type out.

[Αριστοκλής]

You want this to go to the Private Forums?
Please bear that in mind as one perhaps waxes political.

[GiC]

Gardening?....... Quilting?......

Personally I think the Bonobos have the right approach, we could learn quite a bit from them.

[ozgeorge]

Amdetsion,

Believe me, I can appreciate your frustration.

I was spat at in the face when I was eight years old by a total stranger in his twenties simply for being Greek in Australia. So when people say things like "we are all racist to some degree" or "Greeks/Blacks/Chinese are racist too" I can't help but think they have no idea what they are talking about. The only way to understand what racism feels like on the receiving end is to be in a racial minority yourself. That, I think, is why racism seems to be so resilient, it's because the perpetrators have no idea of the pain they cause, because they have never (and can never) experience it themselves.

But I honestly believe that the only way is to find connections. One of the reasons I connect well with the Aboriginal Community here in the Blue Mountains is because my family too were driven out of their Ancestoral lands, and when I was sharing my family's story in a talk I gave one "Harmony Day", one of the Aboriginal Elders ("Aunty Joan") happened to be present. After my talk, Aunty Joan came to me and talked about her own family's experiences of dispossession, and for the first time, I realised that Pontian Greeks and Aboriginals had a common experience. It was such a tremendous relief to know that someone understood. Up until that then, I really never felt that anyone in Australia could possibly understand what my family had gone through, and the alienation from my own history it has caused.

George

[ozgeorge]

And can I just add, dear Amdetsion, that no one knows better than the dispossessed that "we have no abiding city here, but we seek the one which is to come." (hebrews 13:14)

[Tamara]

And can I just add, dear Amdetsion, that no one knows better than the dispossessed that "we have no abiding city here, but we seek the one which is to come." (hebrews 13:14)

Dear George,

Some of my Palestinian friends would understand. They were driven out from their homes in Israel. Their homes were bull-dozed, their olives orchards destroyed. Sadly, even when they come to America they are not always treated well. One Palestinian woman came to church one day and as she stepped out her car was spat upon by the woman who lived next door to the church. She was an immigrant from China who hated all Arabs. She then told the Palestinian woman to go back to the middle east.

[ozgeorge]

Do you know what happens to refugees who come to Australia Tamara? They are kept in "Manditory Detention Centers" (prisons in other words), often for years, while their refugee status is determined. They have fled wars, persecution, torture and death only to be locked in prison. I work part-time with "TATS" ("Torture and Trauma Survivors") and have met people who have fled war-torn countries like Sudan and Afganistan where their homes were destroyed and their land taken away, and have sailed on rickety boats through terrible seas, have been attacked by pirates (yes, they still exist) who have raped and robbed them, and when they finally reach what they think is safe land, they are locked up in prison.

[GiC]

A very good point.  The Constitution is a wonderful document, and, while I think it should be followed as closely as possible, it ain't holy writ.

It may not be holy writ, but as far as being the legal basis of a society, I'll take the Constitution over ANY holy writ any day of the week.

[Tamara]

Do you know what happens to refugees who come to Australia Tamara? They are kept in "Manditory Detention Centers" (prisons in other words), often for years, while their refugee status is determined. They have fled wars, persecution, torture and death only to be locked in prison. I work part-time with "TATS" ("Torture and Trauma Survivors") and have met people who have fled war-torn countries like Sudan and Afganistan where their homes were destroyed and their land taken away, and have sailed on rickety boats through terrible seas, have been attacked by pirates (yes, they still exist) who have raped and robbed them, and when they finally reach what they think is safe land, they are locked up in prison.

George, I had no idea. I am very ignorant of how the Australian government operates but I have heard that many Anglo-Australians are quite racist. I did hear they had a very effective campaign of keeping Asians out of their country. Was your family kept in the prison? If so, for how long? If you would rather not say please do not feel obliged to answer.

[ozgeorge]

Mandatory detention has only come in to being in the last 10 years. The detention centres were actually bulit by and are run by US companies- yes, we contract out our prisons! They are in clear breach of UN Conventions, to which Australia is a signatory. Here is some of what our own Justices, Former Prime Ministers, Church Leaders etc have to say about them: http://www.safecom.org.au/detention.htm

[Tamara]

Mandatory detention has only come in to being in the last 10 years. The detention centres were actually bulit by and are run by US companies- yes, we contract out our prisons! They are in clear breach of UN Conventions, to which Australia is a signatory. Here is some of what our own Justices, Former Prime Ministers, Church Leaders etc have to say about them: http://www.safecom.org.au/detention.htm

Who came up with the idea and how did it get approved?

[Anastasios]

My wife and her family were detained in Austria when they escaped from communism for several months in 1986.

[ozgeorge]

Who came up with the idea and how did it get approved?

The current government, under the current Prime Minister, John Howard.

[GiC]

Sounds like Australia has had an 'open-door' policy for too long and is now forced to deal with the political reality in a rather difficult way. Perhaps you all should consider using your Navy to turn back refugees on the high seas before they become Australia's responsibility. The nuanced distinction between economic migrants and political refugees, on account of this distinction; this distinction has helped the United States reduce the potential number of Haitian refugees from thousands to a few dozens (though a handful of others were admitted as economic migrants). Ultimately, though, open-boarders do not benifit any nation and every nation has the right to ensure that its interests are upheld in matters of imigration; accordingly, everyone who claims to be a political refugee shouldn't be given a papers and government support.

[Amdetsion]

Dear George,

Some of my Palestinian friends would understand. They were driven out from their homes in Israel. Their homes were bull-dozed, their olives orchards destroyed. Sadly, even when they come to America they are not always treated well. One Palestinian woman came to church one day and as she stepped out her car was spat upon by the woman who lived next door to the church. She was an immigrant from China who hated all Arabs. She then told the Palestinian woman to go back to the middle east.

Amazing.

I was walking down the street near the mall in Washington DC with a few other Ethiopians and we passed a group of Chineese tourist who proceeded to toss garbage on the ground in our path. One person with us was only in the US visiting and really did not understand what had happened. She thought that the people were just very poor with public cleanliness. When we told her that she was right but what the greater intention was she went ballistic.

Maybe this women was with them.

[ozgeorge]

Sounds like Australia has had an 'open-door' policy for too long

You think so?
Yet again you make assumptions without knowing what you're talking about.
"White Australia Policy" was legislation here from 1901 and was not abolished until 1973. You couldn't migrate to Australia under the WAP unless you were white.

[GiC]

You think so?
Yet again you make assumptions without knowing what you're talking about.
"White Australia Policy" was legislation here from 1901 and was not abolished until 1973. You couldn't migrate to Australia under the WAP unless you were white.

I am well aware of that, but I have also heard considerable criticism of Australia's openness to immigration since 1973. What happened before then is ancient history...I'm not entirely ignorant of the political situation there, despite your attempts to win this argument by making such a case.

[Tamara]

Amazing.

I was walking down the street near the mall in Washington DC with a few other Ethiopians and we passed a group of Chineese tourist who proceeded to toss garbage on the ground in our path. One person with us was only in the US visiting and really did not understand what had happened. She thought that the people were just very poor with public cleanliness. When we told her that she was right but what the greater intention was she went ballistic.

Maybe this women was with them.

Fr. Amde,

This event with the Chinese woman occurred nine months after 9/11. Four months earlier the parish itself had been completely burned down by arsonists. According to the ATF, the arsonists had started the fire by pouring gasoline around the altar table. The ATF judged it to be a hate crime because most of the parishioners were immigrants from the middle east and derogatory remarks about Arabs had been spray painted on the hall. It was devastating for many of the immigrants because of the horrors they had gone through when they lost their land in Israel. They came to United States where they thought they would be safe. But even here, they discovered, there were people who hated them. Fortunately, the church communities around the parish rallied around them in support (both financial and emotional).

[ozgeorge]

They came to United States where they thought they would be safe.......Fortunately, the church communities around the parish rallied around them in support

I took this photo during a protest outside a Mandatory Detention Centre organised by the National Council of Churches two years ago:

[ozgeorge]

since 1973. What happened before then is ancient history...

I was born in here in 1966!.......Thanks!

[Tamara]

I took this photo during a protest outside a Mandatory Detention Centre organised by the National Council of Churches two years ago:

George, I may be wrong, but I get the distinct feeling that you are quite an activist. 

[ozgeorge]

George, I may be wrong, but I get the distinct feeling that you are quite an activist. 

I don't see myself as one, but if I do nothing in the face of what I see as monstrous inhumanity, then what am I?
I can live with losing the "Good Fight", but I don't think I could live with not fighting it.

[Mo the Ethio]

I took this photo during a protest outside a Mandatory Detention Centre organised by the National Council of Churches two years ago:

 I submit that this photo and post have crossed the line into the political realm. I call on the Mods to issue warnings to the effect....oh wait, sorry George . Do Mods Moderate themselves?

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