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GabrieltheCelt
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« on: September 05, 2007, 09:48:47 PM »

 Racism is a problem that continues to plague not only America, but many parts of the world. It seems strange that something seemingly so insignificant as skin color could cause such strife between people. And yet it does. We know it's the product of a fallen world, but racism is much more nuanced and deeper than simply the color of skin. Language, culture, religion and such are contributors but even more so is misunderstanding, contempt, and fear. Racism is xenophobia of the worst kind.
 Racism can take on many forms too. From subtle forms such as when a person of one color crosses the street to avoid a person of another color; to a more expressed form such as a joke told at the office. Racism is racism, there is no such thing as 'reverse racism' as we hear in America. If you're racist, you're racist.
 Up until recently, I thought of myself as anything but racist. But I've come to learn that I'm actually a very prejudiced person. I've never burned a cross, but I have told and laughed at many racist jokes. And yes, regretably, I have used racial slurs many times. Looking forward, I have the hope that someday myself, and everyone, will be able to transcend these prejudices, but I know it won't be easy. As St. John Klimakos writes in The Ladder of Divine Ascent:

               "Violence and unending pain are the lot of those who aim to ascend
               to heaven with the body, and this especially at the early stages of the
               enterprise, when our pleasure-loving disposition and our unfeeling hearts
               must travel through overwhelming grief toward the love of God and Holiness.
               It is hard, truly hard."


  In Christ,
 Gabriel                                                                                                           
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« Reply #1 on: September 05, 2007, 11:19:58 PM »

I have enjoyed racial jokes many times...but in a complete jokingly manner, usually with the person of that race. Racism is an illness. I can't understand it at all, and my blood boils when I see an Orthodox Christian being racist. What of the Ethiopian Orthodox? They are of the same faith as us practically, how can you hate someone of the same faith? Racism is an outdated and primitive problem that has obviously subsided greatly, but I dont see it ever being irradicated.
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« Reply #2 on: September 05, 2007, 11:57:21 PM »

and my blood boils when I see an Orthodox Christian being racist. What of the Ethiopian Orthodox? They are of the same faith as us practically, how can you hate someone of the same faith?
I am of the opinion that a vast majority of people, including Orthodox Christians, are, of varying degrees, prejudiced. I am also of the opinion that racism doesn't necessarily stem from hating someone, though it often leads to hatred. In my case, I don't see myself as a racist, using the traditional understanding as 'one who hates races other than their own'. I am bothered with the black urban 'gansta' culture. But rather than going after the behavior, I transferred my anger onto all black youths. I'm not defending it, in fact, the reason I posted this was so that we could all have an open, honest dialogue about it. After many of you PM'd me with a lot of great thoughts, I saw my error and have begun to re-align my way of thinking. I still hate the 'gangsta' thuggish culture, but I'm working on separating the behavior from the color. 
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« Reply #3 on: September 06, 2007, 12:21:13 AM »

Everyone is a racist to one degree or another, at least insofar as they prefer a particular culture or people over another. While it can lead to problems, I don't think that it is inherently 'wrong' and it is often justified. It is only when it turns to hate and violence that it become problematic.
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« Reply #4 on: September 06, 2007, 12:24:51 AM »

Everyone is a racist to one degree or another, at least insofar as they prefer a particular culture or people over another.
I agree.

While it can lead to problems, I don't think that it is inherently 'wrong' and it is often justified.
What would be a scenario where it would be 'justified'? I'm not trying to trap you, I'm sincerely curious.
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« Reply #5 on: September 06, 2007, 12:38:41 AM »

Some of us don't hate, we dislike, some of us are not Racists but racialists. I am a Racialist.

It would be evident if you studied more the photo of the cute cat under my post. The caption says it all. Just Replace Race with Breed
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« Reply #6 on: September 06, 2007, 12:47:21 AM »

Some of us don't hate, we dislike, some of us are not Racists but racialists. I am a Racialist.
Respectfully, this sounds like wordplay.
 
It would be evident if you studied more the photo of the cute cat under my post. The caption says it all. Just Replace Race with Breed
So, the Maine coon cat will disappear if we keep race breeding?  Cheesy
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« Reply #7 on: September 06, 2007, 12:49:52 AM »

I still hate the 'gangsta' thuggish culture, but I'm working on separating the behavior from the color. 

There is nothing glamorous about this culture.  ANd it has become a cross-cultural thing.   In the school district I work in, we have a gang problem, but the main problems are not black gangs like the Bloods or the Crips (though there are a few members), but Hispanic gangs.  We  also have so many wannabes and they are a dangerous group because they are trying to fit into a group that is quite different.  Most of the time, these wannabes are white, some of whom come from fairly affluent families and who want to distance themselves from this particular socio-economic group, except when they can get money from their parents for their thuggish apparel and what-not. 

BTW, on a side note, I don't know how many of you have heard of the musical "Avenue Q".  It's a mix between "Sesame Street" and "South Park."  One of the songs is entitled, "Everyone is a little bit racist."  If it weren't so dead on, I'd condemn it.
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« Reply #8 on: September 06, 2007, 12:57:27 AM »

What would be a scenario where it would be 'justified'? I'm not trying to trap you, I'm sincerely curious.

The dislike of Tu*ks common in Greece (or amongst many Armenians for that matter). The former are a people who unapologetically attempted to impose their philosophy and way of life on the Greeks and in doing so murdered, raped, and tyrannized...to this day the Tu*kish people remain in denial of their attrocities and continue their hostility towards the peoples they once oppressed. An avoidance and even dislike of the Tu*ks by these people and their allies is certainly understandable, and it could even be argued that those who are too friendly with these oppressors betray the sacrifice of their ancestors.

I at least believe this to be an example of justifiable racism that is also founded in the ideals of self-determination and self-preservation.
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« Reply #9 on: September 06, 2007, 03:24:23 AM »

Quote
Everyone is a racist to one degree or another, at least insofar as they prefer a particular culture or people over another. While it can lead to problems, I don't think that it is inherently 'wrong' and it is often justified. It is only when it turns to hate and violence that it become problematic.

GIC, I applaud you for your honesty. I'm brave enough to admit that I'm not a fan of the 'ghetto culture' that so many youth are trapped in these days (particularly more inner city). It may not have anything to do with racism, but it's a prejudice that I have always had I guess. I know we shouldn't judge by such superficial standards, but it's something I can't seem to get over. 
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« Reply #10 on: September 06, 2007, 05:33:07 AM »

There was once a Hindu Saint who lived on the banks of the Ganges. It was the monsoon, and the Ganges was in flood. A large branch of a tree was washed down by the floodwaters and got caught in some rocks in front of the Saint. The Saint noticed that there was a Scorpion sitting on the branch which was unable to get on to the land because of the rushing floodwaters. The Saint reached out his arm and extended his finger to entice the Scorpion on to it so that he could rescue it. The Scorpion stung him painfully. The Saint reached out his finger again, and the Scorpion stung him again. He repeated this a third, fourth and fifth time, and each time he was stung by the Scorpion. The Saint's arm became swollen and blue, yet he reached out a sixth time to save the Scorpion. One of the Saint's disciples was watching this and yelled: "Why do you keep doing this?! Don't you see that it's only going to kill you?!" To which the Saint replied. "I am doing exactly what the Scorpion is doing. It is the Nature of a Scorpion to sting, and it is the Nature of a Human Being to show Compassion. We are both just following our Natures."
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« Reply #11 on: September 06, 2007, 07:35:29 AM »

I am of the opinion that a vast majority of people, including Orthodox Christians, are, of varying degrees, prejudiced.
I think there may be some truth in this. However, I also think one has a different perspective on things when one has been the target of overt racial hatred and violence- and I have been.
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« Reply #12 on: September 06, 2007, 09:08:41 AM »

I think there may be some truth in this. However, I also think one has a different perspective on things when one has been the target of overt racial hatred and violence- and I have been.


Understand that!
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« Reply #13 on: September 06, 2007, 09:28:49 AM »

Great story George.

GIC, as a Greek myself, I do not forget my history but I have no hard feelings towards the Turks, in fact one of my best friends is Turkish and she respects where I come from too. The mistake is in generalising, I guess.For example, I personally dislike politicians enormously but then again I have never been in their shoes. I guess not all of them are that bad so I should try not to be prejudiced. And I see the point you are trying to make, a lot of prejudices stem from facts of life, this is the danger, that in the end, much racism - or any kind of discrimination - can resort to "rational" justification, otherwise, it would be outright absurd. Still, I pray to have the strength to overcome this human tendency to the greatest degree possible. Far from serving as a defensive, self-preserving mechanism, it could function aggressively and blindingly and only take us away from a life of love and peace.
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« Reply #14 on: September 06, 2007, 11:00:15 AM »

Everyone is a racist to one degree or another, at least insofar as they prefer a particular culture or people over another.

Know what you mean. Like how I am always more willing to believe and trust a black person than a white one as they always seem to be more friendly Cool
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« Reply #15 on: September 06, 2007, 12:07:07 PM »

Respectfully, this sounds like wordplay.
 

Oh, it most certainly is.  I've spent literally half of my life listening to (and combatting) the baitings and ravings of so-called "Racialists" who are really just a bunch of racists hiding behind semantics.  You'll find so-called "racialist" theory in the teachings of the Church of the Creator (as found in Ben Klassen's "White Man's Bible"), Dr. William Pierce's "Turner Diaries", Tom Metzger's White Aryan Resistance, and in the songs of such popular underground "racialist" bands like the thankfully now defunct RaHoWa (which stands for "Racial Holy War"), Max Resist, and Bound for Glory. 

When I see the term "racialist", all I see is a racist coward who hides behind Orwellian jargon in order to  justify his hatred to the world at large. 
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« Reply #16 on: September 06, 2007, 02:19:45 PM »

I think there may be some truth in this. However, I also think one has a different perspective on things when one has been the target of overt racial hatred and violence- and I have been.


Loud and clear on my end.

Try being a black man in America or anywhere really.

The worse feeling is when a bigot calls himself treating you fairly. He bends over backwards even. It is a disgusting experience.

A bigoted racist (which very many American whites are) shows his bigotedness no matter what he does even when he is being as nice as possible.
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« Reply #17 on: September 06, 2007, 03:39:29 PM »

Oh, it most certainly is.  I've spent literally half of my life listening to (and combatting) the baitings and ravings of so-called "Racialists" who are really just a bunch of racists hiding behind semantics.  You'll find so-called "racialist" theory in the teachings of the Church of the Creator (as found in Ben Klassen's "White Man's Bible"), Dr. William Pierce's "Turner Diaries", Tom Metzger's White Aryan Resistance, and in the songs of such popular underground "racialist" bands like the thankfully now defunct RaHoWa (which stands for "Racial Holy War"), Max Resist, and Bound for Glory. 

When I see the term "racialist", all I see is a racist coward who hides behind Orwellian jargon in order to  justify his hatred to the world at large. 

Sometimes "separatism" it is not hatred but rather "cultural preservation".  The Israelites learned this the hard way. 

Some examples:

Law commanding Israelites not to marry outside of their people lest their faith become corrupt:

Exodus 34:15 - Lest thou make a covenant with the inhabitants of the land, and they go a whoring after their gods, and do sacrifice unto their gods, and [one] call thee, and thou eat of his sacrifice; 16. And thou take of their daughters unto thy sons, and their daughters go a whoring after their gods, and make thy sons go a whoring after their gods.

Them breaking the commandment:

Judges 3:4 - And they were left, that He might test Israel by them, to know whether they would obey the commandments of the LORD, which He had commanded their fathers by the hand of Moses. 5. Thus the children of Israel dwelt among the Canaanites, the Hittites, the Amorites, the Perizzites, the Hivites, and the Jebusites. 6. And they took their daughters to be their wives, and gave their daughters to their sons; and they served their gods. 7. So the children of Israel did evil in the sight of the LORD. They forgot the LORD their God, and served the Baals and Asherahs

And later again:

Ezra9:1 - When these things were done, the leaders came to me, saying, "The people of Israel and the priests and the Levites have not separated themselves from the peoples of the lands, with respect to the abominations of the Canaanites, the Hittites, the Perizzites, the Jebusites, the Ammonites, the Moabites, the Egyptians, and the Amorites. 2 For they have taken some of their daughters as wives for themselves and their sons, so that the holy seed is mixed with the peoples of those lands. Indeed, the hand of the leaders and rulers has been foremost in this trespass." 3 So when I heard this thing, I tore my garment and my robe, and plucked out some of the hair of my head and beard, and sat down astonished. 4 Then everyone who trembled at the words of the God of Israel assembled to me, because of the transgression of those who had been carried away captive, and I sat astonished until the evening sacrifice.
5 At the evening sacrifice I arose from my fasting; and having torn my garment and my robe, I fell on my knees and spread out my hands to the Lord my God. 6 And I said: "O my God, I am too ashamed and humiliated to lift up my face to You, my God; for our iniquities have risen higher than our heads, and our guilt has grown up to the heavens. 7 Since the days of our fathers to this day we have been very guilty, and for our iniquities we, our kings, and our priests have been delivered into the hand of the kings of the lands, to the sword, to captivity, to plunder, and to humiliation, as it is this day. . . .

10. And now, O our God, what shall we say after this? For we have forsaken Your commandments, 11 which You commanded by Your servants the prophets, saying, 'The land which you are entering to possess is an unclean land, with the uncleanness of the peoples of the lands, with their abominations which have filled it from one end to another with their impurity. 12 Now therefore, do not give your daughters as wives for their sons, nor take their daughters to your sons; and never seek their peace or prosperity, that you may be strong and eat the good of the land, and leave it as an inheritance to your children forever.'


Had the Israelites followed the above commandment their faith may very well not have become corrupted.  But they did not listen. 

In closing, it is important to rightly divide between "hate" and "perserving one's culture".
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« Reply #18 on: September 06, 2007, 03:53:43 PM »

In a  September 18, 1858 debate, Abraham Lincoln said:

I will say then that I am not, nor ever have been, in favor of bringing about in any way the social and political equality of the white and black races - that I am not, nor ever have been, in favor of making voters or jurors of Negroes, nor of qualifying them to hold office, nor to intermarry with white people; and I will say in addition to this that there is a physical difference between the white and black races which I believe forever forbid the two races living together on terms of social and political equality. And in as much as they cannot so live, while they do remain together there must be the position of superior and inferior, and I as much as any other man am in favor of having the superior position assigned to the white race.

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This obscene statement was made by a man who was head of the so-called “free world” at a time when most major American corporations were already in business.

To me this is the mind of what a "racist" really is.

The ideas posted about "we are a little racist" and "there is some types of racism; some which is justifiable".

I agree that we are in a world that ahs 'broadened' how we see and what we consider a racist.

To me the above statement is from the mind of a real bonifide racist....a bigot. This is a sick individual who has no God and thus need our prayers.

To not like gangs and hate the entire black race because of the hip hop gangs and other urban culture is a preference. It is bad manners and very ignorant way of thinking. But still falls short of "racist".

A racist is a very dangerous person who reaks havoc on society. This person is capable of nay kind of sinister scheme or crime to support or protect or project his sick thinking.

These people are criminals in America today. The same as any other crook or thief or murderer. Their way of thinking and actions thereto are punisheable by law.

Thus let us rethink if any of us are anything like the above. If we are than yes there is a little racism in all of us. And if that is true than we are no better than common criminals.

A racist is a racist.

Just like a "little white lie" is after all a perfect LIE
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« Reply #19 on: September 06, 2007, 04:19:01 PM »

To give due dilligence to this topic one absolutely must distinguish between racism and cultural perservation.  If one wants to preserve their culture it is not racist to do so. Sometimes - not all of the time - that requires staying away from other cultures.

More examples of "cultural preservation" by remaining seperate from other peoples:

St. John Chrysostom was very sharp against keeping company with Jews for very specific reasons:

"Another very serious illness calls for any cure my words can bring, an illness which has become implanted in the body of the Church. We must first root this ailment out and then take thought for matters outside; we must first cure our own and then be concerned for others who are strangers.

(5) What is this disease? The festivals of the pitiful and miserable Jews are soon to march upon us one after the other and in quick succession: the feast of Trumpets, the feast of Tabernacles, the fasts. There are many in our ranks who say they think as we do. Yet some of these are going to watch the festivals and others will join the Jews in keeping their feasts and observing their fasts. I wish to drive this perverse custom from the Church right now. My homilies against the Anomians can be put off to another time, and the postponement would cause no harm. But now that the Jewish festivals are close by and at the very door, if I should fail to cure those who are sick with the Judaizing disease. I am afraid that, because of their ill-suited association and deep ignorance, some Christians may partake in the Jews' transgressions; once they have done so, I fear my homilies on these transgressions will be in vain. For if they hear no word from me today, they will then join the Jews in their fasts; once they have committed this sin it will be useless for me to apply the remedy."

"But do not be surprised that I called the Jews pitiable. They really are pitiable and miserable. When so many blessings from heaven came into their hands, they thrust them aside and were at great pains to reject them."

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« Reply #20 on: September 06, 2007, 04:44:25 PM »

This obscene statement was made by a man who was head of the so-called “free world” at a time when most major American corporations were already in business.

Not quite, first, most corporations that date back to the 19th Century date to the Gilded Age. Secondly, the president of the United States was not given the colloquial title 'leader of the free world' until after the United States established herself as a superpower, that is to say after WWII...we can thank the Germans for our position amongst the community of nations.

Quote
To not like gangs and hate the entire black race because of the hip hop gangs and other urban culture is a preference. It is bad manners and very ignorant way of thinking. But still falls short of "racist".

To prefer to be with one race or ethnic group of people over another is to favour one race or ethnic group over others, is this not the very definition of racism? A white person who prefers to be with white people or a black person who prefers to be with black people, or an hispanic individual who prefers to be in the hispanic community...all of these are racists. While this may not bet the most extreme form of racism, but by far the most common.

Quote
A racist is a very dangerous person who reaks havoc on society. This person is capable of nay kind of sinister scheme or crime to support or protect or project his sick thinking.

Violence derived from racism is quite dangerous, but I do not believe the standard racism we see will 'reak (sic) havoc on society'...it's probably not beneficial, but there's a large continuium between beneficial and wrecking havoc.

Quote
These people are criminals in America today. The same as any other crook or thief or murderer. Their way of thinking and actions thereto are punisheable by law.

Ummm, no, you're wrong. We do not have thought crimes in the United States, one's God-given right to freedom of conscious is protected by the First Amendment to the Constitution of the United States. One is free to hold whatever views they desire, regardless of whether or not they have your personal approval.
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« Reply #21 on: September 06, 2007, 05:29:03 PM »

This obscene statement was made by a man who was head of the so-called “free world” at a time when most major American corporations were already in business.

To me this is the mind of what a "racist" really is.

The ideas posted about "we are a little racist" and "there is some types of racism; some which is justifiable".

I agree that we are in a world that ahs 'broadened' how we see and what we consider a racist.

To me the above statement is from the mind of a real bonifide racist....a bigot. This is a sick individual who has no God and thus need our prayers.

To not like gangs and hate the entire black race because of the hip hop gangs and other urban culture is a preference. It is bad manners and very ignorant way of thinking. But still falls short of "racist".

A racist is a very dangerous person who reaks havoc on society. This person is capable of nay kind of sinister scheme or crime to support or protect or project his sick thinking.

These people are criminals in America today. The same as any other crook or thief or murderer. Their way of thinking and actions thereto are punisheable by law.

Thus let us rethink if any of us are anything like the above. If we are than yes there is a little racism in all of us. And if that is true than we are no better than common criminals.

A racist is a racist. 

Okay, firstly Abe wasn't President in 1858.  I'll defer to the rest of GiC's response to point out the historical inaccuracies.  Most american corporations, even the major ones, were not around in the 1850's or 1860's.  Historical inaccuracies, while not nullifying your argument, make one less likely to hear you out.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Now, as to racism:

I'm including 4 dictionary definitions for racism; all of them have the same 1st point (racism by thought or belief) and second/third points (racism in action).  Only the second points are illegal.  The first points can be considered immoral (I would qualify them as such), just be careful - we have to be just as hard on someone who is a racist in thought or belief, as we are on one who hates the poor, or the ill, or infirm, or family, etc.

(1)  rac·ism      /ˈreɪsɪzəm/ Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[rey-siz-uhm] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation
–noun
1.   a belief or doctrine that inherent differences among the various human races determine cultural or individual achievement, usually involving the idea that one's own race is superior and has the right to rule others.
2.   a policy, system of government, etc., based upon or fostering such a doctrine; discrimination.
3.   hatred or intolerance of another race or other races.
[Origin: 1865–70; < F racisme. See race2, -ism]

Racism. (n.d.). Dictionary.com Unabridged (v 1.1). Retrieved September 06, 2007, from Dictionary.com website: http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/Racism


(2)  rac·ism       (rā'sĭz'əm)  Pronunciation Key
n. 

   1. The belief that race accounts for differences in human character or ability and that a particular race is superior to others.
   2. Discrimination or prejudice based on race.


rac'ist adj. & n.

Racism. (n.d.). The American Heritage® Dictionary of the English Language, Fourth Edition. Retrieved September 06, 2007, from Dictionary.com website: http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/Racism

(3)  racism

noun
1.    the prejudice that members of one race are intrinsically superior to members of other races
2.    discriminatory or abusive behavior towards members of another race

Racism. (n.d.). WordNet® 3.0. Retrieved September 06, 2007, from Dictionary.com website: http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/Racism

(4)  racism

The belief that some races are inherently superior (physically, intellectually, or culturally) to others and therefore have a right to dominate them. In the United States, racism, particularly by whites against blacks, has created profound racial tension and conflict in virtually all aspects of American society. Until the breakthroughs achieved by the civil rights movement in the 1950s and 1960s, white domination over blacks was institutionalized and supported in all branches and levels of government, by denying blacks their civil rights and opportunities to participate in political, economic, and social communities.

[Chapter:] American Politics

Racism. (n.d.). The American Heritage® New Dictionary of Cultural Literacy, Third Edition. Retrieved September 06, 2007, from Dictionary.com website: http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/Racism
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« Reply #22 on: September 06, 2007, 05:30:30 PM »

These people are criminals in America today. The same as any other crook or thief or murderer. Their way of thinking and actions thereto are punisheable by law.

No, it's not, which is why neo-Nazis are allowed to march in support of their ideals and Hispanic groups calling for the creation of "Aztlan" are allowed to do the same.  You might want to acquaint yourself with the law before trying to tell us what it is.
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« Reply #23 on: September 06, 2007, 05:51:24 PM »

Not quite, first, most corporations that date back to the 19th Century date to the Gilded Age. Secondly, the president of the United States was not given the colloquial title 'leader of the free world' until after the United States established herself as a superpower, that is to say after WWII...we can thank the Germans for our position amongst the community of nations.

Indeed, the concept of "The Free World" is 20th century. I know of a reference to the "Free Nations of the World" in a letter from the Republic of Ireland in 1919 for example.  And during the mid 19th Century it was England and the British Empire that was in the top position of influence, I'd say. 

Using accurate information to support ones points is very helpful. Using easily checked errors and mistaken interpretations does not help ones arguement at all.

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« Reply #24 on: September 06, 2007, 05:57:11 PM »

I find myself agreeing with GIC on this one. Everyone is racist to a certian point; that being that most people will favor their particular ethnic group or culture they belong to. You can sugar coat it all you want, but it's not being very honest in my opinion.   
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« Reply #25 on: September 06, 2007, 05:58:46 PM »

Using accurate information to support ones points is very helpful. Using easily checked errors and mistaken interpretations does not help ones arguement at all.

Indeed.  None of your comments, or mine, or GiC's, is intended to distract from the issue of racism in society today.

It seems that the issue of racism mirrors the issue of sin itself: where do our thoughts end and our actions begin?  How far does a thought go before it is sinful itself (as per Christ's words)?
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« Reply #26 on: September 06, 2007, 06:30:36 PM »

Everyone is racist to a certian point;
Yes, and everyone is homesexual to a certain point, and everyone steals, and every husband cheats on his wife.......
These are just excuses for the worst types of behaviour. How do you and GiC know that "everyone is racist"? How does GiC know that people in Greece "dislike" Turks when he has never been there?
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« Reply #27 on: September 06, 2007, 06:38:08 PM »

Indeed.  None of your comments, or mine, or GiC's, is intended to distract from the issue of racism in society today.

It seems that the issue of racism mirrors the issue of sin itself: where do our thoughts end and our actions begin?  How far does a thought go before it is sinful itself (as per Christ's words)?

Well, something that came to me as I pondered this is that the label of "racism" is perhaps not the whole of the story.  (Just to be clear, I personally subscribe to the idea that there is only one "race":  Human.)  Looking at history and cultures there is a common thread of there being an "Us" and one or more "Thems" and that mere physical features such as colour of skin or hair or differences in features is not always the defining point.  American in the last 300 years is not the only place that such prejudice and subsequent mistreatment of other human beings has happened.  There are such cases as the caste called "Dalit" in India or the "Burakumin"/"Eta" in Japan or how the English dealt with the Irish and Scots at times. There were peoples in Africa that enslaved others.  People that are of the same "stock" if I may use that term, yet treated very differently and cruelly and repressively  If you want I  can provide links and information about these cases.  

As to preferring 'ones own kind' whatever that kind maybe, that is not limited to people of one colour or ethnicity.  It seems to me that people like to be with others with whom they have something in common which could be a culture or a hobby or some other preference.  

So in how that goes with Christianity, if we are to treat others as we would have them treat us, that is for all Human Beings, not just the ones in "Our" group/clan/ethnicity/Church/country.   See all people as just as Human as we are.  We don't have to *like* everyone but we should not pre-judge or mistreat those who are "not-my-kind" whatever the definition of 'kind' is.

Ebor

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« Reply #28 on: September 06, 2007, 06:46:18 PM »

^^Ozgeorge, lots of anecdotal evidence bro. Why do blacks attend mostly black churches? Why do whites marry other whites 90% or more of the time? Why do Orthodox align themselves along jurisdictions based upon ethnic/nationalistic jurisdictions? Wouldn't just these few examples suggest that people like to segregate themselves along racial or cultural lines? It's not a perfect world, just sayin'!  
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« Reply #29 on: September 06, 2007, 07:03:34 PM »

Yes, and everyone is homesexual to a certain point, and everyone steals, and every husband cheats on his wife.......

Well, not so sure about the first one, but to some degree or another I'd say the other two are right on.

[/quote]
These are just excuses for the worst types of behaviour. How do you and GiC know that "everyone is racist"? How does GiC know that people in Greece "dislike" Turks when he has never been there?
[/quote]

So no one in all of Greece dislikes Turks? There is a great love that exists today between the Greek and Turkish peoples? No animostity remaining from 400 years of occupation? If so, I'm glad to hear it.
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« Reply #30 on: September 06, 2007, 07:21:32 PM »

there is only one "race":  Human.
Amen! Amen! Amen!

As to preferring 'ones own kind' whatever that kind maybe, that is not limited to people of one colour or ethnicity.  It seems to me that people like to be with others with whom they have something in common which could be a culture or a hobby or some other preference.
And I think non-competetive sport is the answer to world peace and harmony!
I visited Bulgaria on a shopping trip while holidaying in Greece in Winter 2000. My cousins took me to a mountain village famous for it's embroidery to buy embroidered tablecloths and shirts. I noiced that they had they had wonderful ski slopes, yet none of the locals skied. I hired some skis in Sofia and with the help of a local's 4x4 and snow chains, went up the snowy mountain road and skied down. Seeing this, two of the local lads and one girl asked through their friend who was the only one who spoke Greek if I would teach them to ski. We got them fitted out, and had an amazing skiing lesson using very little spoken language. I showed them how to turn by using an orange under the arch of my foot and "squeezing the orange" to apply the pressure required to turn! After just 90 minutes of these lessons, they were skiing brilliantly, and for the next two days, we spent all the daylight hours on the slopes.
I really think that if people can learn to play together more without competing, we touch some deep common ground of our humanity.
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« Reply #31 on: September 06, 2007, 07:47:38 PM »

So no one in all of Greece dislikes Turks? There is a great love that exists today between the Greek and Turkish peoples? No animostity remaining from 400 years of occupation? If so, I'm glad to hear it. 

Well, while they're not exactly "chummy," they certainly don't have the same hatred as they did 50 years ago, especially in the major cities (where they're no longer "Greek" but "European").
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« Reply #32 on: September 06, 2007, 07:49:05 PM »

In a  September 18, 1858 debate, Abraham Lincoln said:

I will say then that I am not, nor ever have been, in favor of bringing about in any way the social and political equality of the white and black races - that I am not, nor ever have been, in favor of making voters or jurors of Negroes, nor of qualifying them to hold office, nor to intermarry with white people; and I will say in addition to this that there is a physical difference between the white and black races which I believe forever forbid the two races living together on terms of social and political equality. And in as much as they cannot so live, while they do remain together there must be the position of superior and inferior, and I as much as any other man am in favor of having the superior position assigned to the white race.

Abraham Lincoln
President of the United States


This obscene statement was made by a man who was head of the so-called “free world” at a time when most major American corporations were already in business.

To me this is the mind of what a "racist" really is.

The ideas posted about "we are a little racist" and "there is some types of racism; some which is justifiable".

I agree that we are in a world that ahs 'broadened' how we see and what we consider a racist.

To me the above statement is from the mind of a real bonifide racist....a bigot. This is a sick individual who has no God and thus need our prayers.

To not like gangs and hate the entire black race because of the hip hop gangs and other urban culture is a preference. It is bad manners and very ignorant way of thinking. But still falls short of "racist".

A racist is a very dangerous person who reaks havoc on society. This person is capable of nay kind of sinister scheme or crime to support or protect or project his sick thinking.

These people are criminals in America today. The same as any other crook or thief or murderer. Their way of thinking and actions thereto are punisheable by law.

Thus let us rethink if any of us are anything like the above. If we are than yes there is a little racism in all of us. And if that is true than we are no better than common criminals.

A racist is a racist.

Just like a "little white lie" is after all a perfect LIE


For what it`s worth, I would point out that Abraham Lincoln did, after he became President of the United States , outlaw slavery in America.
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« Reply #33 on: September 06, 2007, 07:50:30 PM »

For what it`s worth, I would point out that Abraham Lincoln did, after he became President of the United States , outlaw slavery in America. 

Or at least in the parts that seceded, which is the ironic part; the Union didn't really need the legislation.
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« Reply #34 on: September 06, 2007, 07:56:45 PM »

Or at least in the parts that seceded, which is the ironic part; the Union didn't really need the legislation.
Maybe. The notion of slavery was unpopular amongst liberals in the east, however the reality in the (now) midwest (Kansas , Indiana, Ohio) was not substantially different than the deep south in terms of overall mind set of the white populace.
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« Reply #35 on: September 06, 2007, 07:59:42 PM »

For what it`s worth, I would point out that Abraham Lincoln did, after he became President of the United States , outlaw slavery in America.

I am afraid he did not. He stated that if he could save the Union by keeping slavery he would keep it. If he could end the war by ending slavery he would do that as well. Actually he only emancipated the slaves in the states in rebellion as a tool of war. Hardly altruistic reasons.
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« Reply #36 on: September 06, 2007, 08:03:36 PM »

I am afraid he did not. He stated that if he could save the Union by keeping slavery he would keep it. If he could end the war by ending slavery he would do that as well. Actually he only emancipated the slaves in the states in rebellion as a tool of war. Hardly altruistic reasons.

None the less, the fact ramains, he did outlaw slavery in America.
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« Reply #37 on: September 06, 2007, 08:14:47 PM »

No, he did not. An amendment to the US Constitution did that, long after he was gone.
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« Reply #38 on: September 06, 2007, 08:15:03 PM »

And I think non-competetive sport is the answer to world peace and harmony!

Or other pastimes that can be enjoyed together.  Just last week the World Science Fiction Convention was in Japan. (No, I wasn't there, I just read about it  Smiley )  There were fans from many many countries all with a common love of reading.  As you said, playing together and "play" can mean a number of things, people working in a garden can be playing for example.  It's the common interest, the enjoyable activity together that can make the connection that "that person is not like me in some ways, but he/she likes something that I do, too.  We have a connection."

Ebor
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« Reply #39 on: September 06, 2007, 08:23:27 PM »

Or other pastimes that can be enjoyed together.  Just last week the World Science Fiction Convention was in Japan. (No, I wasn't there, I just read about it  Smiley )  There were fans from many many countries all with a common love of reading.  As you said, playing together and "play" can mean a number of things, people working in a garden can be playing for example.  It's the common interest, the enjoyable activity together that can make the connection that "that person is not like me in some ways, but he/she likes something that I do, too.  We have a connection."

Ebor

I still think "Skiers For Peace" sounds better than "SciFi Enthusiasts For Peace". Cheesy
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« Reply #40 on: September 06, 2007, 08:54:41 PM »

I still think "Skiers For Peace" sounds better than "SciFi Enthusiasts For Peace". Cheesy

And that's OK.  Smiley  As the old Irish saying goes "If we all liked the same thing, there wouldn't be enough to go around." 

Some people can ski, some can't, some don't want to but do like to do other things: fishing, cooking, Anime, historical recreation, gardening, quilting, riding horses and so much more. (It really is wonderful that God has created so many different things that people can do for pleasure.) 

And then there are all of the people that live in places that are flat, have no snow etc.  I remember when we had the OC.net picnic years ago here in MD.  Our daughter asked Mor Ephrem about iirc southern India.  Then she asked if it ever snowed there and was interested and I think astonished that he said he'd never seen snow there.  She was something like 7 at the time.

Ebor
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« Reply #41 on: September 06, 2007, 09:03:16 PM »

I was just kidding Ebor. Of course I agree that skiing isn't the only form of play.
But in essence, I think that common play is a vital (if not the only) means to find our common humanity. Politics and Economics may start out with good intentions about uniting people, but invariably seem to lead to power inequalities which fuel further resentment (such as "Third World" Debt).
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« Reply #42 on: September 06, 2007, 09:19:40 PM »

No, he did not. An amendment to the US Constitution did that, long after he was gone.

As casualties mounted, Lincoln considered ending slavery one of the larger purposes the war might serve. With the Emancipation Proclamation (January 1, 1863), he used his war powers to declare an end to slavery behind enemy lines, but this limited proclamation lacked the security that an amendment firmly planted in the Constitution could provide. By the war's end, even the Confederacy had considered abolishing slavery as a war measure. Slavery had already led to one conflict, and the nation could not allow it to continue and thus lead to another. In January of 1865, Congress proposed the Thirteenth Amendment, which was ratified that December. At the time, its passage was thought sufficient not only to end slavery but to entitle freed slaves to the rights of all American citizens.

Lincoln was assassinated on April 14 , 1865. Congress proposed the Thirteenth Amendment January of 1865 and ratified it in December of 1865.  Lincoln was alive at the time of the proposal to Congress and had been dead a mere eight months after it`s ratification.

To claim slavery in America ended " long after he was gone" is patently false.
To claim Lincoln did not outlaw slavery in America is historical revisionism.
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« Reply #43 on: September 06, 2007, 09:23:28 PM »

You just want to argue, don't you?
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« Reply #44 on: September 06, 2007, 09:24:40 PM »

No, not really. You`re just wrong. Wink
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« Reply #45 on: September 06, 2007, 09:31:28 PM »

Why don't you guy's try skiing together? Cheesy
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« Reply #46 on: September 06, 2007, 09:32:35 PM »

Nope. You've accused me of a falsehood - and that's the truth, for sure.
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« Reply #47 on: September 06, 2007, 09:33:12 PM »

Why don't you guy's try skiing together? Cheesy

No thanks. Liquid water sports for me only.
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« Reply #48 on: September 06, 2007, 09:33:48 PM »

Gardening?....... Quilting?......
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« Reply #49 on: September 06, 2007, 09:37:18 PM »

Nope. You've accused me of a falsehood - and that's the truth, for sure.

I thought we were engaging in a rational debate. If you have a rebutal , please feel free to reply.
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« Reply #50 on: September 06, 2007, 09:38:16 PM »

I know. What about dressing up as Trekkies?
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« Reply #51 on: September 06, 2007, 09:41:09 PM »

Forget it. Hijack of this topic is over.
Mo wants to open another? Feel free.
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« Reply #52 on: September 06, 2007, 09:47:48 PM »

Why don't you guy's try skiing together? Cheesy


Thanks for the thought, George. However , I also limit myself to liquid sports as well.....mainly of the drinkable
variety Wink.
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« Reply #53 on: September 06, 2007, 09:52:20 PM »

Oh good...now taunt me! I can't join you due to medications  Cry
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« Reply #54 on: September 06, 2007, 09:54:23 PM »

Forget it. Hijack of this topic is over.
Mo wants to open another? Feel free.

Hijacking the thread? Hardly. Racism and slavery go together like mom and apple pie (at least in America).
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« Reply #55 on: September 06, 2007, 09:56:15 PM »

Oh good...now taunt me! I can't join you due to medications  Cry
   Sorry......no taunt intended.....I`ll have one for you though Grin
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« Reply #56 on: September 06, 2007, 09:57:06 PM »

Hijacking the thread? Hardly. Racism and slavery go together like mom and apple pie (at least in America).
Yes, however you guys aren't debating slavery, but Honest Abe's role in it's abolition. Another topic for another thread.
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« Reply #57 on: September 06, 2007, 09:58:10 PM »

Yes, however you guys aren't debating slavery, but Honest Abe's role in it's abolition. Another topic for another thread.

Agreed.
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« Reply #58 on: September 06, 2007, 11:58:57 PM »

when one has been the target of overt racial hatred and violence- and I have been.

Me too. When I was growing up in Kentucky, because I was the youngest in the appartments where we lived, the blacks would always pick on me. I got knocked down, pushed over (literally), had my school books kicked out of my hands daily, and almost every ride on the bus (to school and back to home) I was called everything from cracker to wonderbread. At first I was boiling with rage and felt sooo much better when I could tell the older white boys and watch them lay hell down on those black boys. Wow, I hadn't thought about that in a long time.
 I guess seeing the ghetto thug culture so prevalent with today's black youth reminds me of those days of being picked on.   
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« Reply #59 on: September 07, 2007, 12:02:14 AM »



Try being a black man in America or anywhere really.



 Fr. Amde,

 I have a lot of respect for you because of your past posts. But, respectfully, this comment is a bit tired. I don't want to downplay the difficulties you've gone through because of color, but I don't see things as nearly like they were. And many black folks are just as racist as any Klansman. Surely you've read the writings of Elijah Muhammad and his black separatist movement The Black Muslims? How about the Black Panthers?
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« Reply #60 on: September 07, 2007, 12:18:04 AM »

To me the above statement is from the mind of a real bonifide racist....a bigot. This is a sick individual who has no God and thus need our prayers.
To make the general statement that such racism is not of God, in that the claim does not condemn any specific person explicitly, is a fair statement to make.  To claim, however, that a specific person, Abraham Lincoln, is a "sick individual who has no God" and is therefore headed to hell unless God has mercy on him in answer to our prayers, all because he meets your definition of a racist, is a condemnation of a person.  Neither you nor I can properly make this judgment, for only God is qualified to judge the hearts of men.  Maybe this is why Jesus commanded us in the Sermon on the Mount to not judge anyone in this way.
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« Reply #61 on: September 07, 2007, 12:56:54 AM »

(NOTE: Lest you fear this post will lead into yet another Deo Vindice rant, it DOES tie into the OT at the end.)

As casualties mounted, Lincoln considered ending slavery one of the larger purposes the war might serve.

Yes, because he needed Britain and France's unflagging support.  As did the South, hence both sides' movements towards abolition.

It's interesting (you know, in that sick sort of way) that before the War even got started, Congress was ready to pass (and Lincoln ready to sign) a proposed 13th Amendment that read thus: "No amendment shall be made to the Constitution which will authorize or give to Congress the power to abolish or interfere, within any State, with the domestic institutions thereof, including that of persons held to labor or service by the laws of said State." 

Sad that the *only* reason slavery got abolished, in the end, was because one group of white men wanted to punish another group of white men by forcing them back into a Union at bayonet-point and decided to add insult to injury by promising all former slaves forty acres and a mule.

And we all know how well the noble North made good on that promise.  Roll Eyes 

Blacks were used, rather, in attempts to preserve both Southern Agrarianism and Northern Industrialism.  The fact that they were freed is good and right, though the circumstances for their being freed did not lead to their being valued (and actually led up to some of the current racial tensions we see today, imo).

Therefore, it behooves us to see racism for what it really is: the objectifying of one people by another people -- the making of the "objects" into pawns for the objectifiers' gains -- marginalizing, oppressing, and stereotyping them by any means necessary so that "our way of life" is not disturbed. 
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« Reply #62 on: September 07, 2007, 01:01:55 AM »

To make the general statement that such racism is not of God, in that the claim does not condemn any specific person explicitly, is a fair statement to make.  To claim, however, that a specific person, Abraham Lincoln, is a "sick individual who has no God" and is therefore headed to hell unless God has mercy on him in answer to our prayers, all because he meets your definition of a racist, is a condemnation of a person.  Neither you nor I can properly make this judgment, for only God is qualified to judge the hearts of men.  Maybe this is why Jesus commanded us in the Sermon on the Mount to not judge anyone in this way.

From a Mormon (Latter day saints) perpective the native americans were cursed with dark skin to show that they had wronged God so for them Racism could be "justified" as divine or even to Why the jewish people were chosen as special people by God.
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« Reply #63 on: September 07, 2007, 01:22:35 AM »

 To see a man as being different than me is no crime or injustice; to see a man as inferior to me because of his skin color is indeed a travesty. If we're genuinely 'seeking the Kingdom first', we must all pray that this prejudice will be removed from our hearts and minds.
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« Reply #64 on: September 07, 2007, 01:23:38 AM »



Yes, because he needed Britain and France's unflagging support.  As did the South, hence both sides' movements towards abolition.



Sad that the *only* reason slavery got abolished, in the end, was because one group of white men wanted to punish another group of white men by forcing them back into a Union at bayonet-point and decided to add insult to injury by promising all former slaves forty acres and a mule.
 

Similar paralels could be drawn surrounding Constantine`s legalization of Christianity . He (Constantine) clearly had his doubts.
    
Who`s to say God is precluded from political expediency?
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« Reply #65 on: September 07, 2007, 01:29:45 AM »

Similar paralels could be draw surrounding Constantine`s legalization of Christianity . He (Constantine) clearly had his doubts.

True, though since he was emperor, there was no questioning the legality of the move.  Although...
   
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Who`s to say God is precluded from political expediency?

A very good point.  The Constitution is a wonderful document, and, while I think it should be followed as closely as possible, it ain't holy writ.
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« Reply #66 on: September 07, 2007, 01:33:23 AM »


   
 The Constitution is a wonderful document, and, while I think it should be followed as closely as possible, it ain't holy writ.

That , my friend , is a topic for another thread Grin.
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« Reply #67 on: September 07, 2007, 10:38:35 AM »

Okay, firstly Abe wasn't President in 1858.  I'll defer to the rest of GiC's response to point out the historical inaccuracies.  Most american corporations, even the major ones, were not around in the 1850's or 1860's.  Historical inaccuracies, while not nullifying your argument, make one less likely to hear you out.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Now, as to racism:

I'm including 4 dictionary definitions for racism; all of them have the same 1st point (racism by thought or belief) and second/third points (racism in action).  Only the second points are illegal.  The first points can be considered immoral (I would qualify them as such), just be careful - we have to be just as hard on someone who is a racist in thought or belief, as we are on one who hates the poor, or the ill, or infirm, or family, etc.

(1)  rac·ism      /ˈreɪsɪzəm/ Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[rey-siz-uhm] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation
–noun
1.   a belief or doctrine that inherent differences among the various human races determine cultural or individual achievement, usually involving the idea that one's own race is superior and has the right to rule others.
2.   a policy, system of government, etc., based upon or fostering such a doctrine; discrimination.
3.   hatred or intolerance of another race or other races.
[Origin: 1865–70; < F racisme. See race2, -ism]

Racism. (n.d.). Dictionary.com Unabridged (v 1.1). Retrieved September 06, 2007, from Dictionary.com website: http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/Racism


(2)  rac·ism       (rā'sĭz'əm)  Pronunciation Key
n. 

   1. The belief that race accounts for differences in human character or ability and that a particular race is superior to others.
   2. Discrimination or prejudice based on race.


rac'ist adj. & n.

Racism. (n.d.). The American Heritage® Dictionary of the English Language, Fourth Edition. Retrieved September 06, 2007, from Dictionary.com website: http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/Racism

(3)  racism

noun
1.    the prejudice that members of one race are intrinsically superior to members of other races
2.    discriminatory or abusive behavior towards members of another race

Racism. (n.d.). WordNet® 3.0. Retrieved September 06, 2007, from Dictionary.com website: http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/Racism

(4)  racism

The belief that some races are inherently superior (physically, intellectually, or culturally) to others and therefore have a right to dominate them. In the United States, racism, particularly by whites against blacks, has created profound racial tension and conflict in virtually all aspects of American society. Until the breakthroughs achieved by the civil rights movement in the 1950s and 1960s, white domination over blacks was institutionalized and supported in all branches and levels of government, by denying blacks their civil rights and opportunities to participate in political, economic, and social communities.

[Chapter:] American Politics

Racism. (n.d.). The American Heritage® New Dictionary of Cultural Literacy, Third Edition. Retrieved September 06, 2007, from Dictionary.com website: http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/Racism

I never said that this guy was president in 1858. Read what was at the top of the statement. I put "President of the United States" under his name at the end to enforce the fact that the man who is more known as an American President can think that way. I may not have been clear on my intent. It seemed clear when I wrote it.

I do not need anyone to tell me to read Webster to find out the meaning of racism. I am a black man (as we are referred to these days) living in a country that has the world record on racism, bigotry and hate. All of which has been directed at black people living in this country first as slaves than no class citizens to the current 2nd class status. As such I have very clear understanding of racism.

Webster never spoke with me so his meaning of this word is to me good for reference purposes only and not what I consider the real meaning. To me to really know racsim it must have a life experience attached to it.

I was told in colledge by a group of my white "friends" that "you are really cool dude but you are black". Thus I was not allowed to go with them to Nova Scotia. This was not 1950 it was 1988.

lesson learned.

Check your facts on what American corporations that are the direct product of racism and slavery. There is a website maybe. I have an excellent book on the subject. It is burried in my archive so I do not have it available to give you the name.

Black slaves were on the money in America. Our image symbolised wealth.

This is too huge for this poster to type out.


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« Reply #68 on: September 07, 2007, 10:44:25 AM »

You want this to go to the Private Forums?
Please bear that in mind as one perhaps waxes political.
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« Reply #69 on: September 07, 2007, 11:04:14 AM »

Gardening?....... Quilting?......

Personally I think the Bonobos have the right approach, we could learn quite a bit from them. Wink
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« Reply #70 on: September 07, 2007, 11:06:13 AM »

Amdetsion,

Believe me, I can appreciate your frustration.

I was spat at in the face when I was eight years old by a total stranger in his twenties simply for being Greek in Australia. So when people say things like "we are all racist to some degree" or "Greeks/Blacks/Chinese are racist too" I can't help but think they have no idea what they are talking about. The only way to understand what racism feels like on the receiving end is to be in a racial minority yourself. That, I think, is why racism seems to be so resilient, it's because the perpetrators have no idea of the pain they cause, because they have never (and can never) experience it themselves.

But I honestly believe that the only way is to find connections. One of the reasons I connect well with the Aboriginal Community here in the Blue Mountains is because my family too were driven out of their Ancestoral lands, and when I was sharing my family's story in a talk I gave one "Harmony Day", one of the Aboriginal Elders ("Aunty Joan") happened to be present. After my talk, Aunty Joan came to me and talked about her own family's experiences of dispossession, and for the first time, I realised that Pontian Greeks and Aboriginals had a common experience. It was such a tremendous relief to know that someone understood. Up until that then, I really never felt that anyone in Australia could possibly understand what my family had gone through, and the alienation from my own history it has caused.

George
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« Reply #71 on: September 07, 2007, 11:38:56 AM »

And can I just add, dear Amdetsion, that no one knows better than the dispossessed that "we have no abiding city here, but we seek the one which is to come." (hebrews 13:14)
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« Reply #72 on: September 07, 2007, 11:53:51 AM »

And can I just add, dear Amdetsion, that no one knows better than the dispossessed that "we have no abiding city here, but we seek the one which is to come." (hebrews 13:14)

Dear George,

Some of my Palestinian friends would understand. They were driven out from their homes in Israel. Their homes were bull-dozed, their olives orchards destroyed. Sadly, even when they come to America they are not always treated well. One Palestinian woman came to church one day and as she stepped out her car was spat upon by the woman who lived next door to the church. She was an immigrant from China who hated all Arabs. She then told the Palestinian woman to go back to the middle east.
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« Reply #73 on: September 07, 2007, 12:17:11 PM »

Do you know what happens to refugees who come to Australia Tamara? They are kept in "Manditory Detention Centers" (prisons in other words), often for years, while their refugee status is determined. They have fled wars, persecution, torture and death only to be locked in prison. I work part-time with "TATS" ("Torture and Trauma Survivors") and have met people who have fled war-torn countries like Sudan and Afganistan where their homes were destroyed and their land taken away, and have sailed on rickety boats through terrible seas, have been attacked by pirates (yes, they still exist) who have raped and robbed them, and when they finally reach what they think is safe land, they are locked up in prison.
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« Reply #74 on: September 07, 2007, 12:46:30 PM »

A very good point.  The Constitution is a wonderful document, and, while I think it should be followed as closely as possible, it ain't holy writ.

It may not be holy writ, but as far as being the legal basis of a society, I'll take the Constitution over ANY holy writ any day of the week.
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« Reply #75 on: September 07, 2007, 12:47:20 PM »

Do you know what happens to refugees who come to Australia Tamara? They are kept in "Manditory Detention Centers" (prisons in other words), often for years, while their refugee status is determined. They have fled wars, persecution, torture and death only to be locked in prison. I work part-time with "TATS" ("Torture and Trauma Survivors") and have met people who have fled war-torn countries like Sudan and Afganistan where their homes were destroyed and their land taken away, and have sailed on rickety boats through terrible seas, have been attacked by pirates (yes, they still exist) who have raped and robbed them, and when they finally reach what they think is safe land, they are locked up in prison.

George, I had no idea. I am very ignorant of how the Australian government operates but I have heard that many Anglo-Australians are quite racist. I did hear they had a very effective campaign of keeping Asians out of their country. Was your family kept in the prison? If so, for how long? If you would rather not say please do not feel obliged to answer.
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« Reply #76 on: September 07, 2007, 01:03:47 PM »

Mandatory detention has only come in to being in the last 10 years. The detention centres were actually bulit by and are run by US companies- yes, we contract out our prisons! They are in clear breach of UN Conventions, to which Australia is a signatory. Here is some of what our own Justices, Former Prime Ministers, Church Leaders etc have to say about them: http://www.safecom.org.au/detention.htm
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« Reply #77 on: September 07, 2007, 01:35:30 PM »

Mandatory detention has only come in to being in the last 10 years. The detention centres were actually bulit by and are run by US companies- yes, we contract out our prisons! They are in clear breach of UN Conventions, to which Australia is a signatory. Here is some of what our own Justices, Former Prime Ministers, Church Leaders etc have to say about them: http://www.safecom.org.au/detention.htm


Who came up with the idea and how did it get approved?
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« Reply #78 on: September 07, 2007, 01:42:28 PM »

My wife and her family were detained in Austria when they escaped from communism for several months in 1986.
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« Reply #79 on: September 07, 2007, 01:43:10 PM »

Who came up with the idea and how did it get approved?
The current government, under the current Prime Minister, John Howard.
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« Reply #80 on: September 07, 2007, 01:50:03 PM »

Sounds like Australia has had an 'open-door' policy for too long and is now forced to deal with the political reality in a rather difficult way. Perhaps you all should consider using your Navy to turn back refugees on the high seas before they become Australia's responsibility. The nuanced distinction between economic migrants and political refugees, on account of this distinction; this distinction has helped the United States reduce the potential number of Haitian refugees from thousands to a few dozens (though a handful of others were admitted as economic migrants). Ultimately, though, open-boarders do not benifit any nation and every nation has the right to ensure that its interests are upheld in matters of imigration; accordingly, everyone who claims to be a political refugee shouldn't be given a papers and government support.
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« Reply #81 on: September 07, 2007, 01:54:02 PM »

Dear George,

Some of my Palestinian friends would understand. They were driven out from their homes in Israel. Their homes were bull-dozed, their olives orchards destroyed. Sadly, even when they come to America they are not always treated well. One Palestinian woman came to church one day and as she stepped out her car was spat upon by the woman who lived next door to the church. She was an immigrant from China who hated all Arabs. She then told the Palestinian woman to go back to the middle east.


Amazing.

I was walking down the street near the mall in Washington DC with a few other Ethiopians and we passed a group of Chineese tourist who proceeded to toss garbage on the ground in our path. One person with us was only in the US visiting and really did not understand what had happened. She thought that the people were just very poor with public cleanliness. When we told her that she was right but what the greater intention was she went ballistic.

Maybe this women was with them.
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« Reply #82 on: September 07, 2007, 01:58:46 PM »

Sounds like Australia has had an 'open-door' policy for too long
You think so?
Yet again you make assumptions without knowing what you're talking about.
"White Australia Policy" was legislation here from 1901 and was not abolished until 1973. You couldn't migrate to Australia under the WAP unless you were white.
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« Reply #83 on: September 07, 2007, 02:36:03 PM »

You think so?
Yet again you make assumptions without knowing what you're talking about.
"White Australia Policy" was legislation here from 1901 and was not abolished until 1973. You couldn't migrate to Australia under the WAP unless you were white.

I am well aware of that, but I have also heard considerable criticism of Australia's openness to immigration since 1973. What happened before then is ancient history...I'm not entirely ignorant of the political situation there, despite your attempts to win this argument by making such a case.
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« Reply #84 on: September 07, 2007, 03:51:05 PM »

Amazing.

I was walking down the street near the mall in Washington DC with a few other Ethiopians and we passed a group of Chineese tourist who proceeded to toss garbage on the ground in our path. One person with us was only in the US visiting and really did not understand what had happened. She thought that the people were just very poor with public cleanliness. When we told her that she was right but what the greater intention was she went ballistic.

Maybe this women was with them.

Fr. Amde,

This event with the Chinese woman occurred nine months after 9/11. Four months earlier the parish itself had been completely burned down by arsonists. According to the ATF, the arsonists had started the fire by pouring gasoline around the altar table. The ATF judged it to be a hate crime because most of the parishioners were immigrants from the middle east and derogatory remarks about Arabs had been spray painted on the hall. It was devastating for many of the immigrants because of the horrors they had gone through when they lost their land in Israel. They came to United States where they thought they would be safe. But even here, they discovered, there were people who hated them. Fortunately, the church communities around the parish rallied around them in support (both financial and emotional).
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« Reply #85 on: September 07, 2007, 08:13:29 PM »

They came to United States where they thought they would be safe.......Fortunately, the church communities around the parish rallied around them in support


I took this photo during a protest outside a Mandatory Detention Centre organised by the National Council of Churches two years ago:

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« Reply #86 on: September 07, 2007, 11:17:29 PM »

since 1973. What happened before then is ancient history...
I was born in here in 1966!.......Thanks!
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« Reply #87 on: September 08, 2007, 12:04:18 AM »



I took this photo during a protest outside a Mandatory Detention Centre organised by the National Council of Churches two years ago:



George, I may be wrong, but I get the distinct feeling that you are quite an activist. 
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« Reply #88 on: September 08, 2007, 12:17:44 AM »

George, I may be wrong, but I get the distinct feeling that you are quite an activist. 

I don't see myself as one, but if I do nothing in the face of what I see as monstrous inhumanity, then what am I?
I can live with losing the "Good Fight", but I don't think I could live with not fighting it.
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« Reply #89 on: September 08, 2007, 12:58:16 AM »



I took this photo during a protest outside a Mandatory Detention Centre organised by the National Council of Churches two years ago:



 I submit that this photo and post have crossed the line into the political realm. I call on the Mods to issue warnings to the effect....oh wait, sorry George . Do Mods Moderate themselves?
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« Reply #90 on: September 08, 2007, 12:59:19 AM »

I don't see myself as one, but if I do nothing in the face of what I see as monstrous inhumanity, then what am I?
I can live with losing the "Good Fight", but I don't think I could live with not fighting it.


George, You follow in the footsteps of your patron.


ο Θεός να σε ευλογε!


I find it very interesting that almost every Greek man I know is a warrior at heart. It must be in the DNA.
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« Reply #91 on: September 08, 2007, 01:05:55 AM »

I noted that "Commonwealth Land- No Trespassing" sign

Apropos and ironic, no?


The moderator hereby admits to his own rules infraction and has assigned an appropriate penance. A discussion of what constitutes the "common weal" is not germane to this discussion
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« Reply #92 on: September 08, 2007, 01:38:27 AM »

I submit that this photo and post have crossed the line into the political realm. I call on the Mods to issue warnings to the effect....oh wait, sorry George . Do Mods Moderate themselves?

Cheesy
And I submit that it is merely stating an Orthodox Christian Christological fact: Jesus was a refugee.  As were his Mother, Foster Father, and Brother.

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« Reply #93 on: September 08, 2007, 04:10:49 AM »

Fr. Amde,

This event with the Chinese woman occurred nine months after 9/11. Four months earlier the parish itself had been completely burned down by arsonists. According to the ATF, the arsonists had started the fire by pouring gasoline around the altar table. The ATF judged it to be a hate crime because most of the parishioners were immigrants from the middle east and derogatory remarks about Arabs had been spray painted on the hall. It was devastating for many of the immigrants because of the horrors they had gone through when they lost their land in Israel. They came to United States where they thought they would be safe. But even here, they discovered, there were people who hated them. Fortunately, the church communities around the parish rallied around them in support (both financial and emotional).

Hi Tamara...

I was just being a little facetious when I said "maybe she was with them". The experience we had was strikingly similar in blatantness.

I am sorry for what happened to the Palestinian visitors. America is  breeding ground for all kinds of racism. People even bring their own brand to the "table".

For example....

I have had Arabs who have only been in the US for a very short time speak to me and treat me (and other blacks) with cruel racial discrimination.

An Arab owned store was boycotted in a NYC by the local community due to the fact that the store was selling pork, drug paraphanalia and unacceptable magazines. The Arab owners assumed that the people in the nieghborhood wanted these things. This was wrong. The local community was very well organized and working class and black. Also there was large very strick muslim population which was well resepcted by all the people in the area. The Muslims was shocked that muslims would expect to sell this kind of stuff to anyone not to mention other muslims and persude the matter with the Arab store owners.

They apologized. But it was too late. no body wanted to even walk by the place not to mention go in to buy. The store closed.

I am not making "light" of the matter about the Palestians; but to show how riggid people can be towards other people while they are thought of and treated like no class citizens as well. Arabs treated me cruely for no reason because I am black. And whites treat the Arabs just like they treated me because they are not white. Its a viscious cycle. Whites say horrible things about Arabs to me. They feel comfortable that I will agree with them. I always say to them not to include me in such discourse. And not to assume that I feel the way you do about Arabs.

Just because I am (or we are) treated poorly by certain people does not mean that the  people who treat me (us) poorly also deserves the same treatment. That is not a civilized mindset and is un-Christ like.

I am very sorry about the situation with the Palestinian family. These people suffer more than we are allowed to know.

God bless them.

God help us all.
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« Reply #94 on: September 09, 2007, 09:13:57 AM »

Hi Tamara...

I was just being a little facetious when I said "maybe she was with them". The experience we had was strikingly similar in blatantness.

I am sorry for what happened to the Palestinian visitors. America is  breeding ground for all kinds of racism. People even bring their own brand to the "table".

For example....

I have had Arabs who have only been in the US for a very short time speak to me and treat me (and other blacks) with cruel racial discrimination.

An Arab owned store was boycotted in a NYC by the local community due to the fact that the store was selling pork, drug paraphanalia and unacceptable magazines. The Arab owners assumed that the people in the nieghborhood wanted these things. This was wrong. The local community was very well organized and working class and black. Also there was large very strick muslim population which was well resepcted by all the people in the area. The Muslims was shocked that muslims would expect to sell this kind of stuff to anyone not to mention other muslims and persude the matter with the Arab store owners.

They apologized. But it was too late. no body wanted to even walk by the place not to mention go in to buy. The store closed.

I am not making "light" of the matter about the Palestians; but to show how riggid people can be towards other people while they are thought of and treated like no class citizens as well. Arabs treated me cruely for no reason because I am black. And whites treat the Arabs just like they treated me because they are not white. Its a viscious cycle. Whites say horrible things about Arabs to me. They feel comfortable that I will agree with them. I always say to them not to include me in such discourse. And not to assume that I feel the way you do about Arabs.

Just because I am (or we are) treated poorly by certain people does not mean that the  people who treat me (us) poorly also deserves the same treatment. That is not a civilized mindset and is un-Christ like.

I am very sorry about the situation with the Palestinian family. These people suffer more than we are allowed to know.

God bless them.

God help us all.

Well Father, in this case of this parish, it wasn't Caucasian people treating Arabs poorly. It was a Chinese woman. And we have no way of knowing the race of the arsonists because no suspects were ever found. Actually, the community of parishes who showed support after the fire were by in large Caucasians who belonged to various Catholic and Protestant churches in the area. Racial prejudice is not limited to only one race.
The parish that burned down has a sizeable immigrant Eritrean population too. They are an accepted and active part of this parish community.
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« Reply #95 on: September 09, 2007, 09:38:55 AM »

Topic temporarily locked for Moderation Review.


Additional comments by the moderator
After several hours awaiting access back to the forum due to server problems I have reached the conclusion that the OP here was addressing self-introspection as a Christian and what it means to live in a Christ-like manner keeping His first two greatest commandments when confronted with another's and fighting one's own racial biases. As such this thread has merit.
There has been one formal complaint of a breach of our Political discussion rules on this board and, after consultation, with the exception of the one post noted above (this moderator's own), I do not find any overt rule violation.

However, as I believe this topic was conceived as described above, the most recent postings are off the main topic and indeed appear to be a resuscitation of the previously locked and closed topic "Ethnicity and the Church". As I unlock this thread I ask our membership to keep the original intend of this thread in mind.
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« Reply #96 on: September 09, 2007, 09:24:37 PM »

I found an interesting article with the very appropriate title of "Pride and Pejudice" on the GOA of Australia website about St. Photini Equal-to-the-Apostles.
St. Photini was the Samaritan Woman who met Christ at Jacob's Well in the Gospel. The article says: "Before we understand the narrative in its fullness and its importance, first we must understand who these Samaritan people are. In Old Testament times, the Assyrian armies captured the northern Israelites and exiled them back to Assyria as trophies of their conquest of northern Israel (and at the same time- transplanted their own people into the region of Samaria). While in exile, these Israelites were forced to inter-marry with the pagan Assyrians- something that contravened the law that God had given Moses. They were also forced to adopt certain pagan Assyrian practices into the Jewish religion. When they were allowed to return to the region of Samaria, not only had the religion of their forefathers been desecrated, but also their pure Hebrew blood had been defiled by pagan blood. As a consequence, the inhabitants of Samaria (known as Samaritans) were considered by the Jews as traitors toward the faith, as well as being ritually unclean. Jews were not allowed to touch or even converse with Samaritans. Even the name Samaritan was used as a derogatory term aimed at those Jews who were shunned from society."
The article goes on to discuss the meaning of Christ's encounter with her as transcending prejudice and racism and discusses this in the light of contemporary racism and prejudice in Australia.
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« Reply #97 on: September 09, 2007, 10:27:35 PM »

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I have reached the conclusion that the OP here was addressing self-introspection as a Christian and what it means to live in a Christ-like manner keeping His first two greatest commandments when confronted with another's and fighting one's own racial biases. As such this tread has merit.



That's exactly what the OP was addressing.
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