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Author Topic: Baptism of children  (Read 3754 times) Average Rating: 0
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jayjay
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« on: September 03, 2007, 10:34:23 AM »

How old is too old to have a child baptised?? My son is 3yrs old (4 in Nov). I want to get him baptised! There is no Orthodox parish within five hours drive from here, so I have been attending an Anglican parish when not working. Does this suffice, as at home I am teaching him the Orthodox way?? The Anglican priest is willing to baptise him, with the knowledge that i hold to the Orthodox faith! Just wondering if there is any regulations in the orthodox Church about this.
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« Reply #1 on: September 03, 2007, 11:35:33 AM »

My daughter was six when she was baptized by our priest.  Adults are baptized by the Orthodox Church, so there's no age limit.  I'll let others deal with the other questions your post raised.
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« Reply #2 on: September 03, 2007, 12:36:36 PM »

As regards the second question:  I've never heard of a by proxy baptism.  If your son is baptized by an Anglican, then he's Anglican.  If he's baptized by a Catholic, then he's Catholic.  Accordingly, the only way to be baptized Orthodox is to be baptized by Orthodox clergy in an Orthodox Church.  I've never heard that anything different was ever permitted, but I could be wrong, especially considering that this is your child, and not you, whom you want baptized.

However, if one looks at this in the light of much, though certainly not all, of Orthodoxy's willingness to receive other baptisms as "valid upon Chrismation," then I see a loophole in the above idea.  But, considering that the Orthodox Church considers only her baptism effective in and of itself and considers others ineffective until given grace retroactively upon Chrismation, I'm not sure you would want to knowingly give your son an ineffective (a.k.a. invalid) baptism, nor do I think the Church would bless you to have him so baptized, knowing that you knew it was invalid.

Again, I don't know how the Church would view your specific situation--only your local bishop can make the decision, and I'm glad I'm not him (for other unrelated reasons).  All I shared with you above can only be considered vague generalities based on my limited understanding of our canonical tradition.
« Last Edit: September 03, 2007, 03:47:25 PM by PeterTheAleut » Logged
Maksim
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« Reply #3 on: September 03, 2007, 12:56:41 PM »

Is it at all possible to take a short trip to an area with an Orthodox parish?  I am sure you could make arrangements with an Orthodox priest to have the baptism scheduled at a time convenient for you. 

Whether such travel is possible or not, definitely try to get in touch with the closest priest to see what the best course of action would be.
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Thomas
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« Reply #4 on: September 03, 2007, 03:26:15 PM »

Jay Jay, I note that you are from Australia, write to our brother OZGEORGE, he is from Australia and should be able to give you some advice and possibly connection to a priest or the  appropriate Bishop. If anything occurs to endanger the child, they can also advise you on how to do an emergency Baptism.

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« Reply #5 on: September 04, 2007, 07:25:24 AM »

jayjay, Anglican baptism is about as useful as being baptised by a Sikh (and Sikhs do baptise!). I'm Aussie as well so if you like, please send me a personal message stating where in our vast land you are and we'll see what we can do. I joined the Coptic Church (OO) but I have a relative who married a Greek (and is hence EO). I have also visited the underground Serbian Orthodox Church of Coober Peedy. I'm fairly well able to locate people and places so I may be able to connect you with somebody if you like. Anyway, contact me please and we'll talk alright? Cool
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« Reply #6 on: September 04, 2007, 01:16:15 PM »

Quote
I have also visited the underground Serbian Orthodox Church of Coober Peedy.

Underground? Shocked  Cool. Cool Why underground, I wonder.  Huh
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« Reply #7 on: September 04, 2007, 01:54:41 PM »

Underground? Shocked  Cool. Cool Why underground, I wonder.  Huh

Because Coober Pedy is a center of opal mining and as the tunnels grew people started living in them. The weather there can be extremely hot in the day time, but cold at night (desert and all that), but the cave homes are a comfortable temperature all the time, I've read.   I've seen pictures of very nice looking homes that are underground in man-made caves as it were and read that one can have a home drilled out of the rock as one would have a house built.

http://www.cooberpedy.sa.gov.au/site/page.cfm?u=191
http://walkabout.com.au/locations/SACooberPedy.shtml


Ebor
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« Reply #8 on: September 04, 2007, 01:56:15 PM »

Anglican baptism is about as useful as being baptised by a Sikh (and Sikhs do baptise!).

Anglicans do baptise in the name of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit.  A bit different then what the Sikhs do.
 Roll Eyes

Ebor
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« Reply #9 on: September 04, 2007, 09:04:26 PM »

Cool!
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« Reply #10 on: September 06, 2007, 11:44:24 AM »

Quote from: Eborlink=topic=12675.msg172908#msg172908 date=1188928575
Anglicans do baptise in the name of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit.  A bit different then what the Sikhs do.

That is generally true so let us then say it is as useful as a Nestorian baptism then. That is fair is it not?

On a side note, I actually quite like the Sikhs as they are a noble people with much in common with Christianity (baptism being just one point) yet they lack the knowledge of our dear Lord and Saviour. Pray for them.

Ian Lazarus, Ebor's answer is pretty much completely correct. It's fairly cheap there too. You can buy a block of land for about $7,000 in the town and dig your own house. If you buy a mining permit you are allowed to live in your mine but the government will always charge you for it if you're outside of the township. Note: Mining is not allowed in the town but you can dig as many houses as blocks you own Grin No explosives though as it is terribly annoying.

Here's a small picture of the Serbian Church which is much more impressive than any of the others which are quite plain:
http://www.cooberpedy.sa.gov.au/webdata/resources/images/welcome3.jpg

Gives an idea of the size of it.
« Last Edit: September 06, 2007, 11:47:45 AM by Didymus » Logged

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« Reply #11 on: September 06, 2007, 05:40:24 PM »

That is generally true so let us then say it is as useful as a Nestorian baptism then. That is fair is it not?
Undecided  Roll Eyes
Considering that I'm Anglican I would say that it is useful and that the Nestorian probably is as well. I have not studied the Assyrian Church much nor do I speak for any Church, so I am not in a position to make a pronouncment on one of their Sacraments.  I posted earlier to point out that Anglicans *are* Trinitarian (but not Nestorian) which Sikhs are not.  That was all.

Ebor
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« Reply #12 on: September 09, 2007, 06:42:17 PM »

Well, because the Anglicans baptize in the name of the Trinity, the baptism would most likely be valid. However, a chrismation would still have to occur, so there's no real point. And your child would still not be Orthodox.

And let's face it. It would be nice to be baptized early, but there's no frantic rush, is there? There's no possibility of your child going anywhere but heaven at this point, so why not take your time?

I recommend contacting the bishop who will most likely authorize a laity-based baptism and chrismation.

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« Reply #13 on: September 11, 2007, 08:29:41 AM »

Considering that I'm Anglican I would say that it is useful and that the Nestorian probably is as well.

Whilst I recognise your right to hold an Anglican position, please understand that Nestorians divide Jesus Christ and it has been said that they believe in a quarternity rather than the Holy Trinity. They may say the same words but their faith is different. If a Sikh were to use the same words as Christians do would you consider the baptism to be valid?

No Orthodox Church on earth still recognises the validity of Anglican orders and as such, with no recognised priests there are also no recognised baptisms. Now that the Anglicans have 'priestesses' and numerous heretical bishops who receive not even so much as a warning it is not possible any longer for Anglicans to unite with the Orthodox Church except by conversion to The Church. Our religions are no longer the same because the Anglicans have changed the Faith. It was not even 100 years ago when the Anglicans would still declare a bishop to be a heretic in certain areas but this is no longer done. How then can the Anglican alteration of Christianity be considered valid by those who never changed the Faith?
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« Reply #14 on: September 11, 2007, 12:34:08 PM »

Plesae return to topic, the question is should he get his child baptised(yes) by other than Orthodox clergy (no).  This is not a forum to dicuss the validity ot invalidity of baptism by Anglicans or other heterodox churches, that is a decision only bishops may answer in how they use economia. Many thanks in advance for staying on topic---you are welcome to open a validity of baptism  topic on the Faith issues.

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« Reply #15 on: September 12, 2007, 09:09:15 AM »

Please forgive me for straying from the topic Thomas.

To clarify, I agree with you that the child should be baptised only by Orthodox clergy.

As far as I am aware, as no Orthodox bishops recognise Anglican orders there are also none that recognise Anglican baptisms and hence the point I was endeavouring to make before (and its link to this topic). If I am wrong please let me know though.

Thank you.
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jayjay
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« Reply #16 on: September 28, 2007, 09:46:22 AM »

Thanks for your replies. Sorry it took so long-work etc. When I get to a major city with a parish we'll get it done there.
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« Reply #17 on: October 04, 2007, 10:23:16 AM »

When I get to a major city with a parish we'll get it done there.

Good on you! Better sooner rather than later though Smiley
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« Reply #18 on: October 05, 2007, 03:39:28 PM »

And let's face it. It would be nice to be baptized early, but there's no frantic rush, is there? There's no possibility of your child going anywhere but heaven at this point, so why not take your time?

I'm sorry...Could you please clarify what you meant?  It's considered the norm in Orthodoxy for any infant born to Orthodox parents to be baptized on or around the fortieth day of that child's life.  There's not any concept of "why not take your time," as it's not an issue of whether or not the child has personal sin or whether s/he can "go anywhere but heaven at this point."  We baptize because infants have the ancestral stain of the Fall and need to be united to the New Adam, period.  In the case of a pre-fortieth day, life-threatening emergency to the infant, a priest is rushed to baptize or, if not possible, extreme economia is exercised and the nearest Orthodox Christian (usually a parent) will take water and perform a trinitarian baptism, which the Church recognizes.

The idea that baptism is "nice work if you can get it" sounds more like the Baptist churches I came from instead of Orthodoxy--they "took their time" because children probably hadn't reached the "age of accountability" and wouldn't be going to hell until they sinned, so they "took their time" until the person knew for themselves (or so we liked to assume) what was going on.

I would urge you to have the child baptized ASAP--take off work, if possible--and make a date to unite your child to Christ.  My $0.02.
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« Reply #19 on: October 06, 2007, 10:24:04 AM »

As far as I'm aware, The Church teaches that the baptised child may enter life should he depart however the situation regarding the unbaptised child is unknown.

I have heard that HH Pope Shenouda teaches that unbaptised babies who die are damned though. Can anyone confirm/deny this please?
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