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Author Topic: Poor White Trash and the Church  (Read 8520 times) Average Rating: 0
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ozgeorge
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« on: September 02, 2007, 07:35:34 PM »

We are all familiar with these gutter people, "the poor white trash", how do we evangelise them? Is it even possible to evangelise these gutter people? Should we even bother?
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« Reply #1 on: September 02, 2007, 08:02:54 PM »

Is this rhetorical?
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« Reply #2 on: September 02, 2007, 08:07:07 PM »

May be. Wink
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« Reply #3 on: September 02, 2007, 08:21:45 PM »

Well then I believe the Orthodox church would seem very unappealing to the so called "white trash" but I have seen "white trash" enter pentacostal churches around my area because they see hope and all they have to do is "feel" the holy spirit and say a couple of things hear fun music in church and there done. I haven't heard of any "white trash" coming to the Orthodox church has anyone seen this happen? (this is not rhetorical  Wink)
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« Reply #4 on: September 02, 2007, 08:24:00 PM »

My church has penitent gang bangers.  Does that count?
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« Reply #5 on: September 02, 2007, 08:28:13 PM »

penitent gang bangers
Errrr... does "gang bang" mean the same in the US as it does in Australia?
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« Reply #6 on: September 02, 2007, 08:29:41 PM »

I don't know.  I've never been to Australia, although I hear it is beautiful.  It basically means gang member.
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« Reply #7 on: September 02, 2007, 08:33:42 PM »

Errrr... does "gang bang" mean the same in the US as it does in Australia?

HA!
Basically it can be used to describe two different things, depending in what context it is being used. Gang bang in as belonging to a gang and being active, and the gang bang you are thinking of.
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« Reply #8 on: September 02, 2007, 08:34:11 PM »

It basically means gang member.
Oh....then it doesn't mean the same thing!.....PHEW!!!!
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« Reply #9 on: September 02, 2007, 08:36:18 PM »

My goodness, I think I get your meaning.  That sort of thing would require much more penance than what I was talking about.    Shocked
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« Reply #10 on: September 02, 2007, 08:38:26 PM »

I haven't heard of any "white trash" coming to the Orthodox church has anyone seen this happen? (this is not rhetorical  Wink)

Well, you probably could include me in that group: My parents started out in a trailer, I wore flour sacks and burlap bags as a child, and I never had a pair of shoes until I was 3 years old. Due to other factors I've heard 'white trash' being used at me, so I guess there's a pretty strong case that there might be some people who'd consider me in that group.

What's interesting is the converts we're getting in Birmingham: many are from a Southern Protestant background, and all very good people, but may be from a background that some folks might label as 'white trash', so at least in my parish this is happening.

It's good to know that poverty and undereducation has been wiped out in Australia! Maybe I should petition my hierarch to allow me to emigrate there!  Wink
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« Reply #11 on: September 02, 2007, 08:42:03 PM »

Well, you probably could include me in that group

Goodness! And I thought you were such a nice person. I've even been talking to you! Wink
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« Reply #12 on: September 02, 2007, 08:46:21 PM »

^^Maybe I could emigrate and then we'd talk in person!

Alas, but my Greek isn't good enough for Australia...
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« Reply #13 on: September 02, 2007, 08:55:17 PM »

^^Maybe I could emigrate and then we'd talk in person!
NIMBY! (Not In My Back Yard)! Wink
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« Reply #14 on: September 02, 2007, 10:05:28 PM »

The real question in my area would be how welcome would some one be with  tattoos on their neck and hands, wearing blue jeans and a t shirt?  I have seen several Orthodox pamphlets that are very clear that one should dress for church no jeans, no shorts, no t-shirts.  This would be the "poor white trash" as defined in Austin, Texas. How welcome would we be to them or to a street person who entered our worship services?

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« Reply #15 on: September 02, 2007, 10:11:34 PM »

I have seen several Orthodox pamphlets that are very clear that one should dress for church no jeans, no shorts, no t-shirts.  This would be the "poor white trash in Austin, Texas. How welcome would we be to them or to a street person who entered our worship services?
Well, surely we wouldn't allow gutter people like African Americans who speak AAVE into our Churches without asking them to behave certain ways, so why should we allow gutter people like poor white trash in without asking them to behave certain ways? Surely we are not racist? Wink
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« Reply #16 on: September 02, 2007, 11:04:16 PM »

Dear Thomas,   

I attend a parish in Austin who has quite a few members that have many visible tattoos some of who dress more "casually" than most others.  (One of them is a woman who I have come to know that led a completely different lifestyle earlier).  I am happy that they care enough to attend Divine Liturgy and I suppose that their current budget keeps them from the ability to wear "nicer" clothes.  They are attending the Church to worship.

Juliana
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« Reply #17 on: September 02, 2007, 11:22:46 PM »

Dear Thomas,   

I attend a parish in Austin who has quite a few members that have many visible tattoos some of who dress more "casually" than most others.  (One of them is a woman who I have come to know that led a completely different lifestyle earlier).  I am happy that they care enough to attend Divine Liturgy and I suppose that their current budget keeps them from the ability to wear "nicer" clothes.  They are attending the Church to worship.

Juliana

Like everything in Orthodoxy (don't take that out of context) its all about the situation you are in and the different circumstances to wear whatever is your "best" clothes whatever that may be.
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« Reply #18 on: September 02, 2007, 11:57:14 PM »

I posed the scenario from the perception that people I know who have visited the churches in Austin area ( where I go and indeed serve in one of the parishes there) have noted.  I understand that  we are welcoming but pamphlets and such noting these "standards" send a message that is some what disconcerting at least. The message they send to the average members is "do these people  belong here?"  I think they do, but are we as Orthodox willing to bid them welcome or do they have to force their way in?

Forgive me if I have offended.

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« Reply #19 on: September 03, 2007, 01:44:57 AM »

Quote
My goodness, I think I get your meaning.  That sort of thing would require much more penance than what I was talking about. 
   

I'd say it requires a different kind of penance with the same result: freedom.  I'm not saying sexual sins cannot be soul killers, but violence, drugs and crime certainly something to take for granted.  Why are we so obsessed over sexual sins, and seem to ignore the fact that it all is a black mark on the soul?

Oh, and as the the question in the thread...Barbecues.  After liturgy of course.  Provided it isn't a fasting season.  When it's not raining.

Carry a ham!
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« Reply #20 on: September 03, 2007, 01:46:18 AM »

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The real question in my area would be how welcome would some one be with  tattoos on their neck and hands, wearing blue jeans and a t shirt?

With love and understanding. Smiley
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« Reply #21 on: September 03, 2007, 01:49:26 AM »

I've often wondered about this.

We've got a family from a poorer region of the DFW metroplex in our parish--he's a blue-collar biker w/long hair who comes in jeans, sandals and a t-shirt quite a bit of the time.

I personally long for the day when those of lower socio-economic groups can feel at home in Orthodox churches.  I know some folks in my parish would be horrified were this to start happening on a grand scale (the abovementioned family is very persistent and willing to stick it out regardless of what certain prominent members think, much to the annoyance of said prominent members).

Put it this way: until Orthodoxy can be made palatable to certain groups of people...

...the average, blue-collar bubba...
...the immigrant Mexican mechanic...
...the African-American factory worker playing dominoes on his day off...

...and still be Orthodoxy, it's not come into its full missionary potential in this country.  God hasten the day it can do this.
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« Reply #22 on: September 03, 2007, 10:11:58 PM »

Put it this way: until Orthodoxy can be made palatable to certain groups of people...

...the average, blue-collar bubba...
...the immigrant Mexican mechanic...
...the African-American factory worker playing dominoes on his day off...

...and still be Orthodoxy, it's not come into its full missionary potential in this country.  God hasten the day it can do this.
I wonder if the problem is really that Orthodoxy is not "palatable".
Walking through the streets of Athens two years ago, I remember coming across a few people begging in the street or street vendors peddling booklets or little gadgets like those things that hang off your cell phone and which light up when it rings. On Sunday, I attended Liturgy at the Annunciation Cathedral, and recognised two of the beggars and peddlers I had seen in the streets during the week.
I think this is how the Church is meant to be. It is a place where different people with different life stories come together in the Unity of something Higher than socio-economics, social status, politics etc. In Church, the Socialist meets the Capitalist, the Prostitute meets the Nun, the rich meet the poor.....
I wonder if the alienation from Orthodoxy which the poor in America experience is not so much the problem with Orthodoxy being unpalatable to them, but  rather, that they already feel alienated from the American Community and society. In Greece, connecting with the Community of Believers in Church brings with it some connection to Greek Society and social Community. In America, connecting with the Community of the Orthodox Church is no guarantee of connection to American Society and Social Community (unless, perhaps, you attain a status recognised outside of the Church, such as a member of the clergy or an author), otherwise, for "ordinary laity" the social alienation continues outside the Church Community.
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« Reply #23 on: September 04, 2007, 12:10:16 AM »

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...the immigrant Mexican mechanic...

Actually, with the Mexicans I have encountered visiting the church, I see a great deal of familiarity in their eyes... for some almost too familiar.  Having grown up most likely in Roman Catholic homes, Orthodoxy may just seem the same to them, just perhaps a little fancier and with some incomprehensable giberish (Greek, Arabic, Slavonic) thrown in.  And they have said as much.  I've heard some say "It's all the same to me.  Just no statues."  Now there are a few who stick around long enough to fins out otherwise, but, at least in my parish, to date, there is no significant number of Mexicans.

As for evangelism itself, I think Clark Carlton said it best on his second to last podcast "God does all the heavy lifting.  We are to transform ourselves and work on our salvation first, and others will follow." 

Peace
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« Reply #24 on: September 04, 2007, 06:56:38 AM »

Feed the poor that they may pray for our souls and so we may both be brought to heaven.
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« Reply #25 on: September 04, 2007, 01:59:57 PM »

I am absolutely positive that the Orthodox Church can, and should, include all categories of people - all races, all cultural backgrounds and all economical backgrounds, including the so-called white trash. Practically, however, I can see serious difficulties for these people in an Orthodox church. In the area where I live - east-central Mississippi, part of the US "Bible Belt" - these people seem to be very used to the Evangelical Protestant kind of worship: simple, with no "externals," no liturgy as such, simple music, and long cermons on something that is, in their minds, "relevant to their lives" (like blasting those "liberals" who will raise their taxes and take away their guns).
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« Reply #26 on: September 04, 2007, 02:05:15 PM »

I wonder if the problem is really that Orthodoxy is not "palatable".

I think you've hit on something, as it seems that there's plenty for uneducated, so-called "simpler" folks to latch on to, cherish, and claim for their own within the Faith.  That's wonderful that folks have Orthodoxy as a part of the fabric of the culture (whether actually practiced or not by most folks), since there's more of an ability to connect through that predominant culture, as you said.

However, it's been (in)famously said that, here in America, the most segregated time of the week is ten o'clock on Sunday morning.  Blacks go to black churches, whites go to white churches, the Mexicans go to their Catholic church, etc.  For want of a predominant culture, not only does Orthodoxy not provide for that connection (like you said) but is sectioned off into its own little niche of "Arab/Russian/Greek Church" for those from other countries who practice the faith here, or "Whitebread bookish convert Church" for those of us who came in later.

My beef, then, I guess, is with our apparent tendency to attract the two above mentioned groups, but not the ones (for the most part) that I mentioned in my previous post -- those who are not from higher educated backgrounds, those who are in poverty...
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« Reply #27 on: September 04, 2007, 02:18:35 PM »

Put it this way: until Orthodoxy can be made palatable to certain groups of people...

...the average, blue-collar bubba...
...the immigrant Mexican mechanic...
...the African-American factory worker playing dominoes on his day off...

...and still be Orthodoxy, it's not come into its full missionary potential in this country.  God hasten the day it can do this.

....the Blackfoot or Crow or Salish man or woman or teen (or Hopi or Navaho or....) on a reservation
....the hired hand and his boss the rancher/farmer and their families (and being a rancher or dry land farmer doesn't mean rich in Montana).
....the widow in a tiny town hours from any city whose children have all moved to other states to get work.

just some other kinds of folk

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« Reply #28 on: September 04, 2007, 03:41:49 PM »

Oh....then it doesn't mean the same thing!.....PHEW!!!!

Where I'm from, I've never heard it used the other way. I had the same reaction as you!
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« Reply #29 on: September 04, 2007, 04:01:29 PM »

Where I'm from, I've never heard it used the other way. I had the same reaction as you!

The two uses are really closely related, actually.  Typically, a female is initiated into a gang via what George was thinking, resulting in the female being called a gang banger for obvious reasons.  The term eventually spread to mean any member of a gang.
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« Reply #30 on: September 04, 2007, 04:36:04 PM »

Especially street gangs, armed, who use their dastardly weapons in their rival turf (drug) wars and in doing so terrorize the neighborhood in a battle zone of self-destruction. My own old Pittsburgh neighborhood has had enough experience already with this scourge.
Gangs + guns= gangbangers.
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« Reply #31 on: September 07, 2007, 06:09:45 AM »

We are all familiar with these gutter people, "the poor white trash", how do we evangelise them? Is it even possible to evangelise these gutter people? Should we even bother?

Well the actual Orthodox Churches both in Greece and Russia are made up of white trash mainly.

To be honest though the effeminancy and prissiness of the likes of OCA, etc would put off a lot of "gutter people". I cant blame them for that. And it is a fact that psuedo-Christianity is notoriously "bent" as I have sadly learnt from experiance. Those who have actually suffered know that "liberalism" makes no sense...and God speaks through suffering.

A famous Russian novelist said there is nothing more masculine than Christ, therefore it makes sense that there is nothing more effeminate (NOT feminine but effeminate) than Antichrist.

Theophan.
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« Reply #32 on: September 07, 2007, 07:40:01 AM »

Errr.......yeah...
Thanks for that interesting stream of consiousness.

If I ever needed a reason not to join the GOC, Theophan, you're it.
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« Reply #33 on: September 07, 2007, 07:52:56 AM »

Errr.......yeah...
Thanks for that interesting stream of consiousness.

If I ever needed a reason not to join the GOC, Theophan, you're it.


ROFL!
Say that again, ozgeorge.
This IS the FFA boards so he's exercising his posting privilege to be dead wrong in the most offense manner possible. Definitely reverse jurisdiction proselytizing, I would say.
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« Reply #34 on: September 07, 2007, 08:45:44 AM »

"A famous Russian novelist said there is nothing more masculine than Christ, therefore it makes sense that there is nothing more effeminate (NOT feminine but effeminate) than Antichrist."

Theophan makes an interesting point, one that is not mising in the Roman Catholic Theology of Anna Emmerich who is  the source for  Mel Gibson's  "The Passion" movie.  As you will remember,  in the film Satan as seen in that film was depicted as a sexless, effiminate appearing person  (actually played by a woman but without hair lending to a male appearance) with long nails and languid eyes.

Thomas
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« Reply #35 on: September 07, 2007, 09:02:40 AM »

Theophan makes an interesting point, one that is not mising in the Roman Catholic Theology of Anna Emmerich who is  the source for  Mel Gibson's  "The Passion" movie.  As you will remember,  in the film Satan as seen in that film was depicted as a sexless, effiminate appearing person  (actually played by a woman but without hair lending to a male appearance) with long nails and languid eyes.
Which is fine for Roman Catholics and Hollywood producers who get drunk and rail against Jews in public while being arrested, however, in the Orthodox Church, we have Icons of Christ which depict him as genderless- such as the Russian Icon of Christ as Hesychia ("The Blessed Silence"). Are these Icons "evil"?




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« Reply #36 on: September 07, 2007, 09:36:43 AM »

Which is fine for Roman Catholics and Hollywood producers who get drunk and rail against Jews in public while being arrested, however, in the Orthodox Church, we have Icons of Christ which depict him as genderless- such as the Russian Icon of Christ as Hesychia ("The Blessed Silence"). Are these Icons "evil"?






What a cheap shot against Mel Gibson, a man of faith who put a lot of himself both personally and financially on the line to promote that movie about Christ.  I don't see any *Orthodox* people doing something so wonderful as he did. It's easy to criticize those who actually have the guts to step up. That he got drunk and made disparaging comments against Jews is his fall, he apologized for it, it's over--besides, one would expect that when someone steps up for God, the devil will attack his weaknesses all the more strongly, and that he is not in the Church made him all the more susceptible.  We all have good and bad sides. But he did a lot of good by making that movie and it was an excellent portrayal of Christ.
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« Reply #37 on: September 07, 2007, 09:39:18 AM »

Mel Gibson, a man of faith
Because of such "men of faith", the Name of Christ is blasphemed among unbelievers.
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« Reply #38 on: September 07, 2007, 09:41:59 AM »

If I ever needed a reason not to join the GOC, Theophan, you're it.


Comments like that are not helpful.

Getting to the point, though, Theophan may overshoot and overgeneralize to the extreme, but I have noticed that some of what he is saying (i.e. effeminancy of many clergy in mainstream jurisdictions in the US) is very true and is a turn off for "white trash"/"gutter people" who find Christianity a wimpy religion. I think there is a parallel in the demasculization of the Roman Catholic Church which people such as Serge (the young fogey) have noticed.  Theophan may express himself in a frank and abrasive way, and he may overgeneralize, but his post is not without truth.
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« Reply #39 on: September 07, 2007, 09:42:17 AM »

Because of such "men of faith", the Name of Christ is blasphemed among unbelievers.

The name of Christ is blasphemed by you and me every day through our sinful actions. Mel though has the same struggles, only he is more in the public eye.  Mel has done more than either you or me though to promote Christ in the public sphere and his movie had a tremendous impact.  Most people were not too excited by his lapse, save the people that already hated him and Christ.
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« Reply #40 on: September 07, 2007, 09:42:41 AM »

That is not true.
Yes it is.
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« Reply #41 on: September 07, 2007, 09:45:20 AM »

Yes it is.

I amended my post before you responded.
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« Reply #42 on: September 07, 2007, 09:48:44 AM »

Theophan may express himself in a frank and abrasive way, and he may overgeneralize, but his post is not without truth.
I see. So you agree with him then that the OCA is effeminate and prissy?
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« Reply #43 on: September 07, 2007, 09:50:40 AM »

I see. So you agree with him then that the OCA is effeminate and prissy?

No, read what I wrote above in the nuanced manner I wrote it.
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« Reply #44 on: September 07, 2007, 09:56:15 AM »

No, read what I wrote above in the nuanced manner I wrote it.
So, if there is no truth in the statement that the OCA is effeminate and prissy, and therefore not "putting off the gutter people", then
A) There is absolutely no truth in what GOCTheophan said (i.e., it is without truth), and
B) Something else must be putting "gutter people off" from joining the Church.
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« Reply #45 on: September 07, 2007, 10:10:33 AM »

only he is more in the public eye.
Then he should be more careful, shouldn't he.

Mel has done more than either you or me though to promote Christ in the public sphere and his movie had a tremendous impact. 
And I put it to you that the only people interested in the movie were gore-fest buffs and people who already believed in Christ anyway, but needed an emotional experience to boost their wavering faith. You are looking at the film as a Christian. If you can find me three atheists who became Christians because of "The Gospel According to Mel", I'll eat my hat.
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« Reply #46 on: September 07, 2007, 10:18:56 AM »

So, if there is no truth in the statement that the OCA is effeminate and prissy, and therefore not "putting off the gutter people", then
A) There is absolutely no truth in what GOCTheophan said (i.e., it is without truth), and
B) Something else must be putting "gutter people off" from joining the Church.

Ok George, my anger was raised in this thread but since we are colleagues on this forum and friends as well, I am going to try to explain what I mean very carefully and respectfully so as to not fuel the fire.  I apologize if my frustration was evident in previous posts.

I think the problem with Theophan's post is one of generalization.  I do not agree for the record that the OCA is effeminite and prissy. However, that being said, I would be dishonest to myself and the people with whom, over the years in private, I have discussed this issue (because myself and these other people have noticed and experienced this problem), if I did not state that in my experience, I have met more than a few effeminite and prissy clergy and laity, some of whom presented a very demasculized version of Orthodoxy, over the years from this and other mainstream jurisdictions, and that this was very offputting to me and these other persons (not all of whom were men by the way) as well--and I am not exactly the most uber-masculine person that would normally "stand up for manhood" and all that kind of thing. 

People more intelligent than I have noted the feminization of modern Christianity and I tend to agree that this effeminancy of some clergy especially is part of the problem in presenting Orthodoxy to "white trash" people (most of my family would fit this category).  In some conversations I have had, it is hard enough to get the idea of a man "wearing a dress" (I have heard this before) and add on that he is prissy? What kind of image does that give of our clergy? Is this universally true? No! But is it true in some parts and is there a perception of it among some? Yes. So it is something that should be considered I think.

I would be equally suspicious of the Protestant "Promise Keepers" kind of thing coming to Orthodoxy, but I think both are examples of extremes.
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« Reply #47 on: September 07, 2007, 10:21:55 AM »

Then he should be more careful, shouldn't he.

Yes, I agree.

Quote
And I put it to you that the only people interested in the movie were gore-fest buffs and people who already believed in Christ anyway, but needed an emotional experience to boost their wavering faith. You are looking at the film as a Christian. If you can find me three atheists who became Christians because of "The Gospel According to Mel", I'll eat my hat.

I saw the movie and was in no need of an emotional experience to boost my faith. I enjoyed it and felt that it was a welcome alternative to the other fare at movies.  I enjoyed seeing the issue of Christ being discussed in public, both pro and con, it raised the issue back into the public discussion.  Did it convince any atheists? Probably not. Did it help strengthen the faith of weaker members of the Christian faith? Perhaps, and that was a very important gain. It also showed that Christians can make successful movies and engage our culture; I think that was its most important effect.
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« Reply #48 on: September 07, 2007, 10:24:06 AM »

ozgeorge,
So much for the concept of parody, as you attempted with this topic versus the 'ebonics' thread, making any real progress. <sigh> It's going to be a long day...
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« Reply #49 on: September 07, 2007, 10:28:42 AM »

ozgeorge,
So much for the concept of parody, as you attempted with this topic versus the 'ebonics' thread, making any real progress. <sigh> It's going to be a long day...

Only if you stay logged in all day Wink
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« Reply #50 on: September 07, 2007, 10:33:05 AM »

Anastasios,
I guess I'm having trouble understanding this "de-masculinization" thing. And frankly, I don't think "intelligent" people are pushing the issue. In fact, quite the opposite, including people who have been banned from this forum:
http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,4252.0.html
http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,4249.0.html
What exactly do you mean by "effeminate" Orthodox clergy?

Αριστοκλής,
Never fear! Why not split off this "effeminization of Christianity" series of posts and meld it to this thread: http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,4252.0.html  Wink
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« Reply #51 on: September 07, 2007, 10:35:37 AM »

No more headaches for the mod on hydrocodone today!
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« Reply #52 on: September 07, 2007, 11:03:30 AM »

Anastasios,
I guess I'm having trouble understanding this "de-masculinization" thing. And frankly, I don't think "intelligent" people are pushing the issue. In fact, quite the opposite, including people who have been banned from this forum:
http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,4252.0.html
http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,4249.0.html
What exactly do you mean by "effeminate" Orthodox clergy?

Αριστοκλής,
Never fear! Why not split off this "effeminization of Christianity" series of posts and meld it to this thread: http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,4252.0.html  Wink

Dear George,

This is the kind of stuff I am talking about, not Wheeler's bizarre rantings:

http://www.amazon.com/Church-Impotent-Feminization-Christianity/dp/1890626198
http://www.amazon.com/Why-Men-Hate-Going-Church/dp/0785260382/ref=sid_dp_dp/103-1156970-1234260

A few years ago, I think even on this forum (would help if we had a predictable search function!) people discussed this issue. Here is a recent discussion on a blog I found by googling to see if I was the only lone crazy person on earth that thought about this subject (because sometimes I actually do wonder if I am off in la la land!): http://www.timellsworth.com/?p=2017

What I mean by effeminate Orthodox clergy are men that, regardless of what some might label their sexual orientation exhibit the dictionary definition of being effeminate:

Quote
American Heritage Dictionary - Cite This Source
ef·fem·i·nate       (ĭ-fěm'ə-nĭt)  Pronunciation Key
adj. 

   1. Having qualities or characteristics more often associated with women than men. See Synonyms at female.
   2. Characterized by weakness and excessive refinement.

Why this might be a problem is that in a "white trash" environment, men often have a hard time relating to such men.

To me, this is not directly related to whether someone has homosexual temptations, I want to make that clear. My concern in this thread is solely about people who exhibit nonstandard ways of acting adversely influencing people who may be described as less refined and able to make nuanced distinctions (i.e., white trash people, the subject of this thread).

I am sure the blue collar workers reading this thread are fuming about the frequent allusion to white trash culture and screaming at their monitor, "not all of us are white trash!" so just wanted to make that clear as well. I realize this thread started as a parody/satire and morphed.

Anastasios
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« Reply #53 on: September 07, 2007, 11:11:15 AM »

My concern in this thread is solely about people who exhibit nonstandard ways of acting
I'm afraid you are going to have to give me some clear examples of the Orthodox clergy you have seen acting in "non-standard ways" so that I can understand what you mean by "non-standard ways".
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« Reply #54 on: September 07, 2007, 11:15:19 AM »

I'm afraid you are going to have to give me some clear examples of the Orthodox clergy you have seen acting in "non-standard ways" so that I can understand what you mean by "non-standard ways".

Lisping, giggling like girls, zipping my jacket up and down when I disagreed with a priest (that bugged my wife!), sexual innuendo relating to strong masculinity (coming from someone being effeminate), excessive hugging and patting, "nuh uh you DIDNT!" [female ways of speaking], etc.

That kind of thing is off putting.
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« Reply #55 on: September 07, 2007, 11:26:32 AM »

Lisping, giggling like girls, zipping my jacket up and down when I disagreed with a priest (that bugged my wife!), sexual innuendo relating to strong masculinity (coming from someone being effeminate), excessive hugging and patting, "nuh uh you DIDNT!" [female ways of speaking], etc.

That kind of thing is off putting.
OK. I think I understand what you mean. Certainly not the kind of Priest I would send to mission anywhere or to anyone- rich or poor.
But I have never come across such a Priest in my 41 years.
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« Reply #56 on: September 07, 2007, 11:30:15 AM »

OK. I think I understand what you mean. Certainly not the kind of Priest I would send to mission anywhere or to anyone- rich or poor.
But I have never come across such a Priest in my 41 years.

My experience may be atypical because having been at a seminary, I was exposed to more priests numerically speaking than most people.  I hope that it is uncommon and that these fellows were put in appropriate places where this issue would not be a problem for the flock. I also admit that my argumentation has been mostly anecdotal and I am glad we were able to take this in a productive direction.
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« Reply #57 on: September 07, 2007, 11:31:54 AM »

OK. I think I understand what you mean. Certainly not the kind of Priest I would send to mission anywhere or to anyone- rich or poor.
But I have never come across such a Priest in my 41 years.
Of course you haven't. You're in Australia. Way too primitive for the 'sensitive' types.  Cheesy
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« Reply #58 on: September 07, 2007, 11:43:53 AM »

I am glad we were able to take this in a productive direction.
Me too.
I still think Mel's movie reeks though. Wink
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« Reply #59 on: September 07, 2007, 12:22:13 PM »

Lisping, giggling like girls, zipping my jacket up and down when I disagreed with a priest (that bugged my wife!), sexual innuendo relating to strong masculinity (coming from someone being effeminate), excessive hugging and patting, "nuh uh you DIDNT!" [female ways of speaking], etc.

That kind of thing is off putting.

I've known only a handful of priests who fit this description; however, I can think of at least one that fits this description who is also one of the better priests I know and who is quite well loved by the students at Holy Cross (I'm sure any students or graduates of said institution have a pretty good idea of who I am talking about...he tends to be a bit too conservative for my tastes, but he's certainly a good person).

Personally, I would have thought that character were more important than speech impediments, manner in which someone laughs, and culturally influenced idiomatic constructs...but what would I know.

It sound to me like the real problem at hand is something called education and affluence, my family may have come from the backwoods of Kentucky, my great grandfather may have lived his live as a vagabond, but my grandparents and parents made something of themselves, and I managed to acquire an education. The net result? It is no longer necessary to conduct oneself in the manner of an uncouth neanderthal to be secure in their sexuality ('Ugg strong, Ugg manly, Ugg tough, Ugg fertile, you not like Ugg, you not man.'). This is the 21st century, cultural norms have evolved for both men and women. A woman who is not strong and independent is simply not respected, likewise a man who is domineering and belligerent will be ostracized from polite society. It may seem that women are expected to be more 'masculine' and men more 'feminine', but ultimately a single standard of rationality is applied across the board; and the emotionally influenced extremes of gender dimorphism simply do not cut it anymore.

As far as the 'white trash' I wouldn't worry about them too much, the underclasses are generally a couple generations behind the rest of society...they'll catch up and become accepting of our (post-)modern cultural norms in a few decades. However, if we cater to them in the here and now we will alienate the driving segments of our culture and will be turned on by the current underclasses when they catch up in a few decades time.
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« Reply #60 on: January 05, 2008, 02:30:07 PM »

....the Blackfoot or Crow or Salish man or woman or teen (or Hopi or Navaho or....) on a reservation

Woo-hoo~ Someone knows who the Salish are! We have a long history of "Christianity" but it is not really Christianity. This is what most American indians know in my area;

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indian_Shakers

Growing up the Shakers became the dominant religous force. To the extent that if you were not Shaker, you weren't truly an Indian. A great amount of my family were castigated for leaving the Shaker religon behind.
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« Reply #61 on: January 05, 2008, 02:42:52 PM »

Woo-hoo~ Someone knows who the Salish are!

 Smiley  I grew up in Montana.  So I know more of the Inland Salish, not so much of the ones to the west.

Pleased to meet you here. My only native American line is from the Cherokee long ago.

Ebor

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