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Author Topic: Is John Paul II the canonical bishop of Rome?  (Read 4635 times) Average Rating: 0
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« on: May 22, 2003, 07:16:21 PM »

It is my understanding that after the schisms that affected the Church at the time of Chalcedon, the Non-Chalcedonian Patriarchs in Antioch and Alexandria were automaticaly "deposed" and Orthodox Patriarchs were appointed in their place.

This is clearly not the case of Rome after the 1054, and the Orthodox Church never had the intention to appoint a Greek one there, or in any Italian or Western territory, as the jurisdiction of Rome over the West was respected, and other Orthodox Patriarchs like that of Ohrid and Bulgaria never broke communion with it.

Does this mean he's still the Canonical Bishop of Rome?
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Anastasios
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« Reply #1 on: May 23, 2003, 06:36:17 PM »

How can a bishop outside of Orthodox communion be canonical or uncanonical? It doesn't seem like a valid question to me from the Orthodox point of view.

Of course Orthodox treat JP II as a valid bishop but there is no Eucharistic concelebration so we must assume that that is either 1) out of being polite or 2) they do believe he is a bishop but due to his being outside of Orthodox communion he is not an ORTHODOX bishop so the question is moot.

anastasios
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Hypo-Ortho
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« Reply #2 on: May 23, 2003, 11:04:34 PM »

How can a bishop outside of Orthodox communion be canonical or uncanonical? It doesn't seem like a valid question to me from the Orthodox point of view.

Of course Orthodox treat JP II as a valid bishop but there is no Eucharistic concelebration so we must assume that that is either 1) out of being polite or 2) they do believe he is a bishop but due to his being outside of Orthodox communion he is not an ORTHODOX bishop so the question is moot.

anastasios

Well, I agree with you, anastasios!!!  Cheesy  And, since I do, and we both agree that JPII is *not* an Orthodox bishop, then there should be no objection for the Orthodox Church to elect an ORTHODOX bishop of Rome, provided there is enough of an Orthodox flock there.  

But then, even smaller Orthodox flocks have bishops.  The Diocese of Washington, DC, for example is small indeed, but it is still large enough for the Primate of the Orthodox Church in America (the "OCA") to claim the title, "Archbishop of Washington," even though the RCC also has an archbishop of that city.  

Of course, there is also the Autonomous Orthodox Church of Sinai (under the JP), which consists of only the ancient Monastery of St. Katherine, but which has its Abbot as Ruling Archbishop of the tiny Church of Sinai .

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Mexican
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« Reply #3 on: May 24, 2003, 01:41:10 AM »

How can a heretic be "canonical"?


Is it that simple ? Huh
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« Reply #4 on: May 24, 2003, 08:57:27 AM »

.......
Well, I agree with you, anastasios!!!  Cheesy  And, since I do, and we both agree that JPII is *not* an Orthodox bishop, then there should be no objection for the Orthodox Church to elect an ORTHODOX bishop of Rome, provided there is enough of an Orthodox flock there.  
........
Hypo-Ortho
You bring up a interesting idea that I've also pondered recently. Historically the Bishop of Rome has had little if any qualms establishing "Latin" Patriarchates within the sees of the other, Orthodox, patriarchates. And recent RC activity in Russia and the Ukraine continues the agenda. We Orthodox have sat by and waited for 950 years for the Roman bishop to bring his flock back to Orthodoxy and thereby restore unity and his place of honor. It is not going to happen and no twisting verbage  or Vatican II re-statements of stale positions are going to help. Is it time for an Orthodox Bishop of Rome? With St Peters work in Antioch, surely a "Petrine"-line can be canonically established.
Just thinking with the keyboard....
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« Reply #5 on: May 24, 2003, 10:46:11 AM »

I don't think it would matter if there were an Orthodox bishop in Rome, really.  It wouldn't be a big deal like when Rome took half of the population of Antioch, for instance.

I think it would, however, make the Orthodox look silly so that's one consideration against it.  It would obviously be done to spite the RC's.

Rome removed its titular Latin patriarchs of Constantinople, Alexandria, and Antioch (which it had in addition to the Uniate ones), which I see as a sign of good will, leaving only a Latin patriarch in Jerusalem where there is a Roman Catholic flock.  Still, it would make sense to reduce him to an Archbishop since he doesn't have any real patriarchal powers.  Still, that's for RC's to decide and not us.

So Hypo, if you wish to push for an Orthodox bishopric to be established in Rome, be my guest. :-)

anastasios
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James the Just
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« Reply #6 on: May 24, 2003, 11:43:36 AM »

I'll donate some $ for Brother Hypo's train ticket.

James
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« Reply #7 on: May 24, 2003, 11:49:28 AM »

.....
I think it would, however, make the Orthodox look silly so that's one consideration against it.  It would obviously be done to spite the RC's.

Rome removed its titular Latin patriarchs of Constantinople, Alexandria, and Antioch (which it had in addition to the Uniate ones), which I see as a sign of good will, leaving only a Latin patriarch in Jerusalem where there is a Roman Catholic flock.  Still, it would make sense to reduce him to an Archbishop since he doesn't have any real patriarchal powers.  Still, that's for RC's to decide and not us......

anastasios
Silly? Perhaps. But maybe Rome is the wrong place for the seat. By treating the historic Roman See as we have, we have assured that Orthodoxy in Western Europe will progress to the point of the identical  jurisdictional quagmire we now have in North America. Not a pleasant thought, I think. It has already started there - making us already "look silly"
The RCs can do as they will. "Good will" can be a relatively defined term, IMO.
Demetri, the sinner from Lazika
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« Reply #8 on: May 24, 2003, 12:06:11 PM »

Maybe since Moscow became the 3rd Rome, the MP could become the "Roman" Patriarch? Tongue
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« Reply #9 on: May 24, 2003, 12:18:57 PM »

Maybe since Moscow became the 3rd Rome, the MP could become the "Roman" Patriarch? Tongue

But, of course! However,  the "papal" overtones of that are ______(well, fill in the blank.)

Sadly, it looks as if the EP and MP are ready to begin to spar over this - if the Estonia situation is an indicator.

Hence, "silly" may still apply.

Demetri Roll Eyes
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Hypo-Ortho
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« Reply #10 on: May 24, 2003, 01:19:47 PM »

I'll donate some $ for Brother Hypo's train ticket.

James

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James, my brother, I'll need more than a train ticket to cross the Atlantic!   Wink

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James the Just
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« Reply #11 on: May 24, 2003, 02:24:46 PM »

Why Bro Hypo,

It would be better to establish your flock in Sicily, I can work you a sweet deal there Wink, got some connections from my Italian side  Cool.

james
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Hypo-Ortho
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« Reply #12 on: May 24, 2003, 02:47:36 PM »

Why Bro Hypo,

It would be better to establish your flock in Sicily, I can work you a sweet deal there Wink, got some connections from my Italian side  Cool.

james

Ok, if you can be sure the RC Archbishop of Palermo doesn't mind!  Cool
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« Reply #13 on: May 28, 2003, 09:59:43 PM »

Well, since Rome was the Patriarchate of the west, would it not be fitting, if Western Rite Orthodoxy is to be restored as a viable option (please God let this come to pass), than an Exarchate in Rome would almost be necesary.  

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« Reply #14 on: May 28, 2003, 10:01:20 PM »

Maybe the Patriarch of the Milan Synod could do it! Cheesy
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« Reply #15 on: May 28, 2003, 10:22:19 PM »

Quote
Maybe the Patriarch of the Milan Synod could do it!

Isn't the Saint Hilarion Monastery in Texas under their jurisdiction?  They have published a lot of W.R. material.

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« Reply #16 on: May 28, 2003, 10:29:42 PM »

Yes it sure is Nektarios. They are a wealth of information on Western Rite Orthodoxy and pre-schism history of the west.
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« Reply #17 on: May 28, 2003, 10:32:29 PM »

The Monastery of St. Hilarion in Austin Texas is under the Milan Synod and is the residence of one or their Bishops.

Just a correction the leader of the Milan Synod is an ArchBishop and Metropolitan, not a Patriarch.  At least not yet.

Nektarios, St. Hilarion's has  published a Sarum Rite prayerbook containing only preschism prayers from england.  Unfortunatly it appears to be close to out of print.

BTW, other than their fantastic publishing, what do people know of the Milan Synod?

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« Reply #18 on: May 28, 2003, 10:34:12 PM »

indeed they are Nik!  Not to mention the fact that they have translated a ton of their stuff into spanish.  It seems at least one Jurisdiction is prepared to be missionaries among the hispanic populations.

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James the Just
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« Reply #19 on: May 28, 2003, 11:02:06 PM »

Brother Joe,

I have come to the conclusion that anything " Western "
is really not welcomed here.

Guess I will saddle up and ride .


james
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Anastasios
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« Reply #20 on: May 28, 2003, 11:09:32 PM »

Brother Joe,

I have come to the conclusion that anything " Western "
is really not welcomed here.

Guess I will saddle up and ride .


james

Don't let anyone scare you off.  Keep posting, please.

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James the Just
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« Reply #21 on: May 29, 2003, 01:29:25 PM »

Brethern,

Went to get some ammo (spiritual) and are reloaded .

james
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« Reply #22 on: May 29, 2003, 07:40:19 PM »

Dear Joe:

Bishop Alejandro of the ROCOR in Argentina has also translated and gathered tones of articles and prayers and books into Spanish for use of the local population. These books have been useful for most Latin American Orthodox Christians. The OCA has an Exarchate in Mexico, but lacks funds and there is a grave shortage of priests (like in the three jurisdictions).

One of the best mission Bishops was Bishop Paul of Mexico (GOA), he also translated several texts and unified the Orthodox community in Mexico, until he died martyr in 1986. The government was much harder with his priests than with those of the other Churches. Orthodox priests who wore clerical vestments were sometimes detained, even in more modern times (1970's, 80's), in which the RC had a confortable relationship with the government.

Im sure that the reason why Orthodoxy is not known here is because of the economical crisis and the lack of funds to establish missions and parishes. This is a fertile land for Orthodoxy, because according to my personal experience, the Mexican Catholic culture is much closer to an Orthodox mentality than the American or British Catholic. Mexicans are very much of processions, and devotions such as the veneration of icons, lighting candles, people feel at home. Moreover, people miss those devotions that are no longer offered in the modern Roman Church. The restrictions against religion were lifted since the regime change in the 90's and the only problem now is money.

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« Reply #23 on: May 31, 2003, 12:23:04 AM »

So is this where the Western Rite and Milan Synod should be discussed now? Cheesy
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« Reply #24 on: June 01, 2003, 07:45:37 PM »

One of the best mission Bishops was Bishop Paul of Mexico (GOA), he also translated several texts and unified the Orthodox community in Mexico, until he died martyr in 1986.

Snoopy,
Any more detail on this?  Thanks.
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« Reply #25 on: June 02, 2003, 06:34:34 PM »

Yes, Bishop Pablo de Ballester was born in Spain, he was from a nouble family with roots in Catalunya and Greece, and a member of the Franciscan order. He was a supporter of true ecumenism and was convinced about the possibility of a union between orothodox and Catholics. He went to Athens to study theology and he was ordained priest in the Orthodox Church in Greece. In 1960 he came to Mexico as pastor of the Orthodox community which had almost been anihilated. Thanks to his work many priests were ordained and a lot of people joined the Orthodox Church and the liturgical texts were translated to Spanish.

He was also an observer in Vatican II and participated in several ecumenical events. He became respected and honoured by the Mexican nation because of his cultural labour, he translated various works of Greek literature and wrote books on it, and about religion.

The 31 January of 1984, he was shot after the celebration of the Divine Liturgy in the Cathedral. The authors of the crime were probably members of the DFS (the Mexican "KGB"). The Bishop had been critical about some events related to political and religious repression.



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