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Author Topic: OO and EO difference (hurdles to Reunification)  (Read 31347 times) Average Rating: 0
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« Reply #135 on: September 30, 2011, 05:17:37 PM »

There are other Fathers who say the same thing.

St Basil says..

The Lord remained for forty days untempted, for the devil knew that he fasted and yet did not hunger, and therefore did not dare to approach him.

St Gregory Naz. says..

He fasted in truth forty days eating nothing for He was God.

St Basil again..

..not as forced to that necessity which overpowers nature, but as if provoking the devil to the conflict.

I don't have time to find more references just now as it is getting late here. But I am happy to always be found agreeing with St Cyril and St Severus, and St Basil seems to say exactly the same thing. His incarnation was never a matter of necessity, it was entirely for the purpose of our salvation, and this is served by a true humanity, not by a mere or bare humanity. It is always necessary that a man restore what Adam lost, but it is only possible for God to have the power to do so. Therefore Christ is both God and man in union not in mere agreement of a man and the Word.

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« Reply #136 on: September 30, 2011, 05:18:43 PM »

You seem to think the Word had to cease to be Divine in order to assume humanity truly.
No. I just don't think that his Divinity nullified his "natural passions" like hunger, thirst, physiological emotion, etc.

No. You're not. Christ is truly man, not merely man. A mere man, by nature, cannot walk on water.
Christ disagrees.

"Amen, Amen, I say to you, he who believes in Me, the works that I do, he will do also; and greater works than these he will do."

Humanity in proper union with God can work mighty works.

"The glory of God is man fully alive, and the life of man is the vision of God." -St. Irenaeus of Lyons
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« Reply #137 on: September 30, 2011, 05:20:14 PM »

Nicholas and JLatimer, thanks for all your comments. They are all very thought-provoking and make this an enjoyable and fruitful discussion.

I must leave now as I am taking my eldest daughter back to University early tomorrow morning.

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« Reply #138 on: September 30, 2011, 05:21:08 PM »

Nicholas and JLatimer, thanks for all your comments. They are all very thought-provoking and make this an enjoyable and fruitful discussion.

I must leave now as I am taking my eldest daughter back to University early tomorrow morning.

I wish her the best of luck, may the Lord be with her! Smiley
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« Reply #139 on: September 30, 2011, 05:21:19 PM »

Nicholas and JLatimer, thanks for all your comments. They are all very thought-provoking and make this an enjoyable and fruitful discussion.

I must leave now as I am taking my eldest daughter back to University early tomorrow morning.


Have a safe trip, Father.
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« Reply #140 on: September 30, 2011, 05:26:08 PM »

St Cyril teaches about this issue...

It was not however till He had fasted sufficiently, and by His Godlike power had kept His flesh unwasted, though abstaining from meat and drink, that scarcely at length He permitted it to feel its natural sensations: for it says, that He hungered.
I do not mean to disagree with St. Cyril

St. Cyril is not your only problem. In addition to the Fathers cited by Fr. Peter, you have St. Athanasius himself to contend with:

Quote
The Word was not hedged in by His body.... A man cannot transport things from one place to another, for instance, merely by thinking about them; nor can you or I move the sun and the stars just by sitting at home and looking at them. With the Word of God in His human nature, however, it was otherwise. His body was for Him not a limitation, but an instrument, so that He was both in it and in all things, and outside all things, resting in the Father alone. At one and the same time-this is the wonder-as Man He was living a human life, and as Word He was sustaining the life of the universe, and as Son He was in constant union with the Father. Not even His birth from a virgin, therefore, changed Him in any way, nor was He defiled by being in the body. Rather, He sanctified the body by being in it.
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« Reply #141 on: September 30, 2011, 05:30:05 PM »

There are other Fathers who say the same thing.

St Basil says..

The Lord remained for forty days untempted, for the devil knew that he fasted and yet did not hunger, and therefore did not dare to approach him.

St Gregory Naz. says..

He fasted in truth forty days eating nothing for He was God.

St Basil again..

..not as forced to that necessity which overpowers nature, but as if provoking the devil to the conflict.
So basically everyone who learned from Origen?

Hmmm...
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« Reply #142 on: September 30, 2011, 05:31:33 PM »

St Cyril teaches about this issue...

It was not however till He had fasted sufficiently, and by His Godlike power had kept His flesh unwasted, though abstaining from meat and drink, that scarcely at length He permitted it to feel its natural sensations: for it says, that He hungered.
I do not mean to disagree with St. Cyril

St. Cyril is not your only problem. In addition to the Fathers cited by Fr. Peter, you have St. Athanasius himself to contend with:

Quote
The Word was not hedged in by His body.... A man cannot transport things from one place to another, for instance, merely by thinking about them; nor can you or I move the sun and the stars just by sitting at home and looking at them. With the Word of God in His human nature, however, it was otherwise. His body was for Him not a limitation, but an instrument, so that He was both in it and in all things, and outside all things, resting in the Father alone. At one and the same time-this is the wonder-as Man He was living a human life, and as Word He was sustaining the life of the universe, and as Son He was in constant union with the Father. Not even His birth from a virgin, therefore, changed Him in any way, nor was He defiled by being in the body. Rather, He sanctified the body by being in it.
I agree with St. Athanasius that the he did not cease to be the Logos which sustains all things.
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« Reply #143 on: September 30, 2011, 05:34:33 PM »

Are you saying that Christ's divinity "fed" his humanity, making up for what is "lacking" in humanity when it comes to the natural passions?
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« Reply #144 on: September 30, 2011, 05:35:51 PM »

There are other Fathers who say the same thing.

St Basil says..

The Lord remained for forty days untempted, for the devil knew that he fasted and yet did not hunger, and therefore did not dare to approach him.

St Gregory Naz. says..

He fasted in truth forty days eating nothing for He was God.

St Basil again..

..not as forced to that necessity which overpowers nature, but as if provoking the devil to the conflict.
So basically everyone who learned from Origen?

Hmmm...

At the risk of moving away from the subject, but Origen was a very influential theologian, and many of his students admired and defended him.  I personally believe that if St. Augustine can be given sainthood despite his faults, I would wish Origen for the same courtesy, especially since his life is also quite exemplary.
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« Reply #145 on: September 30, 2011, 05:36:52 PM »

At the risk of moving away from the subject, but Origen was a very influential theologian, and many of his students admired and defended him.  I personally believe that if St. Augustine can be given sainthood despite his faults, I would wish Origen for the same courtesy, especially since his life is also quite exemplary.
I agree, especially since the Origenites are gone now.
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« Reply #146 on: September 30, 2011, 05:43:06 PM »

You seem to think the Word had to cease to be Divine in order to assume humanity truly.
No. I just don't think that his Divinity nullified his "natural passions" like hunger, thirst, physiological emotion, etc.

Neither I nor Fr. Peter, AFAIK, are arguing that His Divinity nullified His natural human passions. What we are saying is not that the Divine nature or essence nullified anything, but that the Divine person, the Word, experienced human nature as the Word, not as a mere man.

No. You're not. Christ is truly man, not merely man. A mere man, by nature, cannot walk on water.
Christ disagrees.

"Amen, Amen, I say to you, he who believes in Me, the works that I do, he will do also; and greater works than these he will do."

Humanity in proper union with God can work mighty works.

"The glory of God is man fully alive, and the life of man is the vision of God." -St. Irenaeus of Lyons

By Grace, not by nature, as I said.

St Cyril teaches about this issue...

It was not however till He had fasted sufficiently, and by His Godlike power had kept His flesh unwasted, though abstaining from meat and drink, that scarcely at length He permitted it to feel its natural sensations: for it says, that He hungered.
I do not mean to disagree with St. Cyril

St. Cyril is not your only problem. In addition to the Fathers cited by Fr. Peter, you have St. Athanasius himself to contend with:

Quote
The Word was not hedged in by His body.... A man cannot transport things from one place to another, for instance, merely by thinking about them; nor can you or I move the sun and the stars just by sitting at home and looking at them. With the Word of God in His human nature, however, it was otherwise. His body was for Him not a limitation, but an instrument, so that He was both in it and in all things, and outside all things, resting in the Father alone. At one and the same time-this is the wonder-as Man He was living a human life, and as Word He was sustaining the life of the universe, and as Son He was in constant union with the Father. Not even His birth from a virgin, therefore, changed Him in any way, nor was He defiled by being in the body. Rather, He sanctified the body by being in it.
I agree with St. Athanasius that the he did not cease to be the Logos which sustains all things.

Do you agree with him that His body was for Him not a limitation, as a body indeed is for a mere man?
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« Reply #147 on: September 30, 2011, 06:29:28 PM »

Perhaps later Fr. Peter can provide us with quotes from St. Severus of Antioch's arguments with Julian of Halicarnassus regarding the corruptibility Vs. incorruptibility issue as it seems to relate to what we are discussing.
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« Reply #148 on: September 30, 2011, 06:38:33 PM »

More from St. Athanasius here: http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,39958.msg646852.html#msg646852
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« Reply #149 on: October 01, 2011, 12:45:48 AM »

No. You're not. Christ is truly man, not merely man. A mere man, by nature, cannot walk on water.
Christ disagrees.

"Amen, Amen, I say to you, he who believes in Me, the works that I do, he will do also; and greater works than these he will do."

Humanity in proper union with God can work mighty works.

"The glory of God is man fully alive, and the life of man is the vision of God." -St. Irenaeus of Lyons

By Grace, not by nature, as I said.

Oh?

"And they brought to Him a paralytic lying on a bed. Seeing their faith, Jesus said to the paralytic, 'Take courage, son; your sins are forgiven.' And some of the scribes said to themselves, 'This fellow blasphemes.' And Jesus knowing their thoughts said, 'Why are you thinking evil in your hearts? 'Which is easier, to say, ‘Your sins are forgiven,’ or to say, ‘Get up, and walk’? 'But so that you may know that the Son of Man has authority on earth to forgive sins'—then He said to the paralytic, 'Get up, pick up your bed and go home.' And he got up and went home. But when the crowds saw this, they were awestruck, and glorified God, who had given such authority to men."

Seems the human Jesus is working the mighty works of God without mention of "by one nature versus another" or "by his divinity". Man in union with God can stop tidal waves, walk on water, command the cosmos, heal the sick.

Do you agree with him that His body was for Him not a limitation, as a body indeed is for a mere man?
We must first mention that the saints can bi-locate and appear by proxy.

Now, our God did not cease to be the Logos when he became incarnate, in that his divinity was not moved or impaired. He remained the Logos who sustains all things. However, as the Incarnate Logos, he was ignorant of many things, could be acted upon, and experienced the natural passions (hunger, thirst, sexual temptation [not the sin of lust], exhaustion, mortality). They're all over the Gospels.

When Jesus saw Lazarus's tomb, did he think, "the earth-born require that I deliberately manifest my humanity's capacity for physiological grief, despite the fact that my incarnate nature does not 'require' it.", and then he wept?

When he arrived at Jacob's well, did he think "Well, this woman certainly won't speak with me if I do not deliberately induce my hypostatically-united humanity to thirst against necessity."

When he was on the Cross, did he have to will his body to sink and his lungs to collapse, and the blood to run from his wounds, and the flesh open to accept the nails and the spear? Did he have to clot the blood in his face when struck so that a bruise would appear?

Neither I nor Fr. Peter, AFAIK, are arguing that His Divinity nullified His natural human passions. What we are saying is not that the Divine nature or essence nullified anything, but that the Divine person, the Word, experienced human nature as the Word, not as a mere man.
The OO also affirm that Christ does not "do a human nature thing here" and then "do a divine nature thing over here" because he is the Divine Word. If a Divino-human Christ does not hunger, it better be because he's teleporting mana into his stomach and not because his pre-resurrection body doesn't need to eat.

I'm open to correction. I could be wrong. I just don't understand why you hold the position you do.
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« Reply #150 on: October 01, 2011, 01:10:14 AM »

Hi Nicholas,

I am about to head out, but I couldn't resist catching up with this interesting thread.

What do you mean by 'Divino-human Christ'? Do you mean that in a critical sense, in that you do not believe that Christ is fully human and fully divine in union? If so, can you provide some idea of how you see the divine and human aspects of Christ interacting?

You do seem to be proposing a Christ who is simply a man who is energised by the Holy Spirit to a much greater degree than the prophets, but in just the same way. Is this a true reflection of what you are trying to say?

In the incarnation it seems to me a mistake to think of the Word willing only once to become human. Rather I think that He continues always to will and choose to be incarnate, so that there is a sense that divinely he does choose each moment to experience the reality of his humanity. It is not a necessity placed upon him, as it is for us. It is always a choice. He chooses everything. And sometimes he chooses not to allow his humanity to express itself in accordance with mere mortality, but to raise it above itself. This does not make him less truly human, but his humanity, as has been quoted, is an instrument not a limitation.

Best wishes

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« Reply #151 on: October 01, 2011, 01:34:42 AM »

In the incarnation it seems to me a mistake to think of the Word willing only once to become human... there is a sense that divinely he does choose each moment to experience the reality of his humanity.
I like this, Fr. Peter. I do not think it is problematic.

You do seem to be proposing a Christ who is simply a man who is energised by the Holy Spirit to a much greater degree than the prophets, but in just the same way. Is this a true reflection of what you are trying to say?
I am criticizing what appears to be a very low view of humanity. Christ is the ultimate saint. Our pre-resurrection saints can do amazing things through their union with the Uncreated Energies of God. Yes, Christ walked on water because he was God, but he was also man. He did these things as a man, too. He healed, and his disciples could also heal. He drove out demons, his disciples also had something of this power. Christ is the judge; and the saints will judge angels, the Apostles the tribes of Israel. Who is to say that Christ did not do some of these things wholly or partially as man, through the TRULY natural state of humanity, by the Grace of God?

In addition:

Only God could raise himself from the Dead, and only God could trample down the death of all by his own Death.

Only God could be sinless. (Well, ontologically. We also have the Theotokos)

Only God could heal our nature in taking it upon Himself.

These things I do not dispute.

We can work wonders by the grace of God BECAUSE God lived a life AS MAN, and also did so.

Rather I think that He continues always to will and choose to be incarnate
If Christ is truly incarnate, how could he un-incarnate Himself? Isn't that an absurdity?

Yes, Christ could somehow "fill up" the limitations in his humanity with his divinity, thus pulling himself "out of the human equation." But become un-incarnate?
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« Reply #152 on: October 01, 2011, 01:50:23 AM »

Do you agree with him that His body was for Him not a limitation
Do you mean his human body, mind, will and soul?

What do you mean by 'Divino-human Christ'?
Rather, I meant a "Divino-Humanity". As Fr. Thomas Hopko would say (paraphrasing): "There is God-hood. There is man-hood. Jesus has both. But there is no God-man-hood."
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« Reply #153 on: October 01, 2011, 03:03:23 AM »

Fr. Hopko also says that Christ will judge humanity AS A MAN, insofar as he is one.
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« Reply #154 on: October 01, 2011, 03:16:56 AM »

But Christ isn't a man though he is truly human. He is the Word of God incarnate.
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« Reply #155 on: October 01, 2011, 03:52:20 AM »

Nevermind
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« Reply #156 on: October 01, 2011, 03:54:29 AM »

But Christ isn't a man though he is truly human.
Lord, have mercy.

The Logos became a man. He didn't cease to be God, but he really became a man. Not just a category or genus.

He is monogenes after all!
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« Reply #157 on: October 01, 2011, 04:22:18 AM »

But he isn't a human person which is what A man means. He is truly man and truly human but he is not A man. That is Nestorianism.
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« Reply #158 on: October 01, 2011, 04:40:36 AM »

But he isn't a human person which is what A man means.
Christ is a Divine Person who became man. Ergo he is truly a man and truly God.

but he is not A man. That is Nestorianism.
No, to have a man united to or assumed by the Logos is Nestorianism.

To have the Logos BECOME A MAN is different.
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« Reply #159 on: October 01, 2011, 05:33:54 AM »

Just for clarity. Do you think Christ is a human person?
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« Reply #160 on: October 01, 2011, 05:46:39 AM »

Just for clarity. Do you think Christ is a human person?
I think he's a Divine Person who became human, and is thus a man. In one sense it is alright to call him a "human person" because any person who is a human is a human person. On the other hand, because that Person (Hypostasis) is the same pre-existent Logos, he is not a human Hypostasis which somehow began at his incarnation.

Goodnight for now, Father. Thank you for the discussion.
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« Reply #161 on: October 01, 2011, 08:32:23 AM »


In one sense it is alright to call him a "human person" because any person who is a human is a human person.

This is exactly the problem. The question is: to be fully human, do you have to be a (created) human person. The answer is no. In the Incarnation, the Uncreated person of the Word assumed a created nature, making it truly His, yet he never ceased, in His personal reality, to be Uncreated.

No one is saying He became the category or genus, humanity. What is being said is that He became of-one-essence with us, just as He is of-one-essence with the Father.
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« Reply #162 on: October 01, 2011, 09:06:10 AM »

You do seem to be proposing a Christ who is simply a man who is energised by the Holy Spirit to a much greater degree than the prophets, but in just the same way. Is this a true reflection of what you are trying to say?
I am criticizing what appears to be a very low view of humanity. Christ is the ultimate saint. Our pre-resurrection saints can do amazing things through their union with the Uncreated Energies of God. Yes, Christ walked on water because he was God, but he was also man. He did these things as a man, too. He healed, and his disciples could also heal. He drove out demons, his disciples also had something of this power. Christ is the judge; and the saints will judge angels, the Apostles the tribes of Israel. Who is to say that Christ did not do some of these things wholly or partially as man, through the TRULY natural state of humanity, by the Grace of God?

Where did you get this idea that in order for Christ to be fully human, He had to be limited by His humanity, in such a way as if one and the same Christ were not also God?

I think you are missing the point about walking on water: A mere human being cannot, by nature, walk on water. A mere human being is subject, again, by his very nature, to the laws of physics, etc. Yet Jesus, Who was fully and truly human, walked on water. Therefore, your hypothesis that Jesus always chose to be limited by His humanity, as if He was a mere man, is false. Now what is important to remember is that Jesus did in fact walk on the water in His humanity. The point is not that the Divinity does one thing proper to it, the humanity another proper to it; to the contrary, the one subject, the Word, Who performs all these actions, is at one and the same time Divine and Human.

Quote
Who is to say that Christ did not do some of these things wholly or partially as man, through the TRULY natural state of humanity, by the Grace of God?

He did everything He did wholly, never partially, as man, because He is human, but also at the same as God, because He is Divine.

Quote
Christ is the ultimate saint. Our pre-resurrection saints can do amazing things through their union with the Uncreated Energies of God.

First off, the saints don't have a hypostatic union with God. They are created persons. Jesus Christ, the Theanthropic hypostasis, is an Uncreated Person. The union of God and man in Jesus Christ is hypostatic, not merely energetic. It is different from the union of God with the saints. You do seem to be flirting with Nestorius here.


I suggest you read or reread On the Incarnation. You will find it clarifies a lot of this.
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« Reply #163 on: October 01, 2011, 09:11:10 AM »

Just for clarity. Do you think Christ is a human person?

I wonder if one of the issues going on is that of nature verses person?   For example, cats all share the same nature as cats, humans have in come the same human nature, but each human person is different in person, so is each cat.  I see Christ as having a human nature and divine nature, but as one person.  The natures and the person are never separated.  His Human nature was, like ours, made in the Image of God but it was also in union with which that Image was created, the Divine nature.  God created each of our individual persons, but unlike us, the person of Christ already existed as the Logos prior to the incarnation, but with the incarnation He now has a human nature also.  I see His natural human nature submitting to the divine nature, but also the divine nature submitting to the limitations in many ways to His human nature.  For example, He grew in wisdom, He hungered, He Thirsted, etc., but also His human nature, body and soul, submitted to His divine nature.  So, He fasted, his human nature being in complete obedience to his divine nature, and sustained by the power of the divine, while his divine nature experienced the fast, being tempted in His person in all things.   In every action, it seems to me, it was both natures working together in the person of Christ.  
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« Reply #164 on: October 01, 2011, 09:21:39 AM »

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I think you are missing the point about walking on water: A mere human being cannot, by nature, walk on water. A mere human being is subject, again, by his very nature, to the laws of physics, etc. Yet Jesus, Who was fully and truly human, walked on water.

Not sure about this, I am thinking of St. Peter here.  Christ called Him and he walked on water.  Christ was truly human in his nature.  St. Peter, though being human in nature, was fallen nature and a fallen person.  In our fallen nature, we cannot but what happens when our person becomes faith, which also means our nature becomes faith?  I say we can walk on water in our nature when it is faith, but if we doubt even a little we get all wet.  Tongue  

Maybe this well help in  how I am seeing the situation and how most likely I am in error.   I am coming from the idea from essence/energy view.   If correct, which I am most sure I am not, this view would mean that God is Love as scripture says, but He would also be things such as Faith, Mercy, Compassion, etc.  These things we partake of, and it transforms us that we become these things as long as we remain in Him.  After all it was Christ who said that we would do even greater things.
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« Reply #165 on: October 01, 2011, 09:28:56 AM »

Quote
I think you are missing the point about walking on water: A mere human being cannot, by nature, walk on water. A mere human being is subject, again, by his very nature, to the laws of physics, etc. Yet Jesus, Who was fully and truly human, walked on water.

Not sure about this, I am thinking of St. Peter here.  Christ called Him and he walked on water.  Christ was truly human in his nature.  St. Peter, though being human in nature, was fallen nature and a fallen person.  In our fallen nature, we cannot but what happens when our person becomes faith, which also means our nature becomes faith?  I say we can walk on water in our nature when it is faith, but if we doubt even a little we get all wet.  Tongue 


St. Peter could not have chosen to do so without God's assent. Jesus could choose at will to walk on water, because He is God.
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« Reply #166 on: October 01, 2011, 09:48:17 AM »

Quote
I think you are missing the point about walking on water: A mere human being cannot, by nature, walk on water. A mere human being is subject, again, by his very nature, to the laws of physics, etc. Yet Jesus, Who was fully and truly human, walked on water.

Not sure about this, I am thinking of St. Peter here.  Christ called Him and he walked on water.  Christ was truly human in his nature.  St. Peter, though being human in nature, was fallen nature and a fallen person.  In our fallen nature, we cannot but what happens when our person becomes faith, which also means our nature becomes faith?  I say we can walk on water in our nature when it is faith, but if we doubt even a little we get all wet.  Tongue  


St. Peter could not have chosen to do so without God's assent. Jesus could choose at will to walk on water, because He is God.

St. Peter sank because he suddenly lacked faith.  I believe those who truly become faith can and will walk on water, move about from location to location, etc.   I am thinking of the monk who came to his master saying he had mastered his passions what more is there?  His master responded by lifting his hand saying, you can become fire, and fire enveloped his hand.  How about how, St. Mary of Egypt was seen in prayer actually levitating in the air?  I am sure there are many more examples, of Saints, who had become and were able to do things, beyond what we see as natural, because of their union with God.

So, the question on my mind is how does this relate to Christ Human nature?  I think, His human nature was fully energized by his divine nature in hypostatic union.  That is, He being born of the seed of David, at His incarnation, from the moment of conception, His human nature was fully Love, Faith, etc., but also which he grew in stature and wisdom, which is why the workings of His human nature could go against the laws of nature as man see's them.  We can become like He is in His human nature because we are brought into union with His human nature.  I think, it is amazing, that we can be, as it were, plugged into Christ Jesus, a part of Christ, and become like Christ in His human nature, us being mere created beings, becoming little Christ.  I think part of the danger of mixing the human and divine nature is that we would become truly divine in nature/essence, hence the necessity of the distinction.
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« Reply #167 on: October 01, 2011, 12:52:24 PM »

This is exactly the problem. The question is: to be fully human, do you have to be a (created) human person. The answer is no. In the Incarnation, the Uncreated person of the Word assumed a created nature, making it truly His, yet he never ceased, in His personal reality, to be Uncreated.
I agree, JLatimer. But in terms of mental contemplation it is alright to call Jesus a human "person" in the sense that he is a Person who became human, but that Person itself is and was Divine. I am not speaking about ontological personhood or some such thing.

Jesus is God who became Man. Therefore he is both 100% man and 100% God.

If Jesus is not really a man then the Scriptures lie.

You do seem to be flirting with Nestorius here.
Quite the opposite. If anything I'm being a form of monophysite.  Wink Perhaps you turn to calling me Nestorian because you cannot comprehend a God who remains truly un-circumscribed while being truly circumscribed at the same time.

Neither can I, but that doesn't mean it's not true.
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« Reply #168 on: October 01, 2011, 12:57:21 PM »

Where did you get this idea that in order for Christ to be fully human, He had to be limited by His humanity, in such a way as if one and the same Christ were not also God?
He's not being limited by his humanity. He uses his humanity in concert with his Divinity. And he uses his humanity the same way he wants us to use ours, in a manner that enables us to use ours to do the mighty works of God by grace.

First off, the saints don't have a hypostatic union with God. They are created persons. Jesus Christ, the Theanthropic hypostasis, is an Uncreated Person. The union of God and man in Jesus Christ is hypostatic, not merely energetic. It is different from the union of God with the saints.
It is not different. It is both/and.

He is both God and the perfect human saint.

I suggest to you this podcast by Fr. Thomas Hopko:

http://ancientfaith.com/podcasts/hopko/the_incarnation_do_we_really_believe_it
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« Reply #169 on: October 01, 2011, 01:05:37 PM »

He did everything He did wholly, never partially, as man, because He is human, but also at the same as God, because He is Divine.
Good. I'll hold you to that.
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« Reply #170 on: October 01, 2011, 01:38:59 PM »

I'd really like Fr. Peter and JLatimer and anyone else who has time to listen to the Fr. Hopko podcast. I think you'll both find it edifying:

http://ancientfaith.com/podcasts/hopko/the_incarnation_do_we_really_believe_it

(and yes, JLatimer, I have read On the Incarnation)
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« Reply #171 on: October 01, 2011, 02:46:48 PM »

I've been trying to think of a Father who speaks of the Word becoming A man, rather than becoming flesh, or becoming man, and I am struggling.

i. The Definitio of Chalcedon doesn't say he became A man.

ii. Constantinople II says..being made flesh...made man...union made with flesh...one of the Holy Trinity has been made man...

iii. Constantinople II condemns those who say that the Theotokos is the mother of A man.

iv. St Cyril says..One Lord Jesus Christ was made flesh and made man...was both made flesh and made man...He assumed flesh and blood...knowing One Only Christ, the word of God the Father with His own Flesh...He was made Flesh, not as He is said to dwell in the Saints...He made Indwelling of such a kind as the soul of man too may be said to have in regard to its own body...the Word of God united (as we already before said) to Flesh Personally...He became also Man...He became One with His own Flesh, He rendered it Life-giving...both the human and besides the Divine expressions have been said by One...He united human nature to Himself Personally and underwent fleshly birth from the very womb, not as though by any necessity or for the sake of His own Nature needing the Birth in time.

v. The 12 Anathemas of St Cyril forbid us saying that Christ receives or uses the power of the Holy Spirit like the saints. We must confess that he works all miracles using his own power. 

If any one say that the One Lord Jesus Christ hath been glorified by the Spirit, using His Power as though it were Another's, and from Him receiving the power of working against unclean spirits and of accomplishing Divine signs upon men; and does not rather say that His own is the Spirit, through Whom He hath wrought the Divine signs, be he anathema.

vi. The Scriptures don't seem to say that he became A man, but that he became flesh.

I have stuck to just EO accepted sources, but I can't find it said that the Word became A man, and this seems significant. Certainly he became properly human but I can't even find the EO councils saying that he became A man.

Do you have sources or references that do use this terminology?

It is important to me that especially in Christology we follow the Fathers, and just as St Severus was a strict disciple of St Cyril, so I try to be a careful disciple of St Severus, but I have not referenced his writings here and have stuck to universal and EO ones. None of them seem to say that Christ became A man.

What do you think is the difference between saying that the Word became flesh, and your position that he became A man, which seems to me to extend his human experience into saying that he was and is a human person. Why can I not find Fathers who agree that he became a human person?

Also, why do you think it an absurdity to say that the Word could cease to be incarnate if he chose? His taking flesh does not affect his own divine nature at all. He remains who he is when he becomes incarnate and would remain who he is if he laid down his humanity. Why do you consider this absurd?

Thanks

Father Peter
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« Reply #172 on: October 01, 2011, 03:04:22 PM »

NVM
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« Reply #173 on: October 01, 2011, 03:08:01 PM »

The Spirit is His own Spirit. When a saint prays he has no power of his own. He receives a grace that is external to himself.

When Christ says 'Be healed', the sick man will be healed.

When a saint or any Christian says, 'Be healed', whether or not the sick man will be healed depends entirely on the will and action of God.
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« Reply #174 on: October 01, 2011, 03:08:44 PM »

The Spirit is His own Spirit. When a saint prays he has no power of his own. He receives a grace that is external to himself.

When Christ says 'Be healed', the sick man will be healed.

When a saint or any Christian says, 'Be healed', whether or not the sick man will be healed depends entirely on the will and action of God.
I see, thank you. That clarifies it then. Smiley
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« Reply #175 on: October 01, 2011, 03:11:54 PM »

v. The 12 Anathemas of St Cyril forbid us saying that Christ receives or uses the power of the Holy Spirit like the saints. We must confess that he works all miracles using his own power. 
Can you post the quote here?
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« Reply #176 on: October 01, 2011, 03:15:01 PM »

v. The 12 Anathemas of St Cyril forbid us saying that Christ receives or uses the power of the Holy Spirit like the saints. We must confess that he works all miracles using his own power. 
Can you post the quote here?
"If any one say that the One Lord Jesus Christ hath been glorified by the Spirit, using His Power as though it were Another's, and from Him receiving the power of working against unclean spirits and of accomplishing Divine signs upon men; and does not rather say that His own is the Spirit, through Whom He hath wrought the Divine signs, be he anathema."
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« Reply #177 on: October 01, 2011, 03:22:21 PM »

v. The 12 Anathemas of St Cyril forbid us saying that Christ receives or uses the power of the Holy Spirit like the saints. We must confess that he works all miracles using his own power.  
Can you post the quote here?
"If any one say that the One Lord Jesus Christ hath been glorified by the Spirit, using His Power as though it were Another's, and from Him receiving the power of working against unclean spirits and of accomplishing Divine signs upon men; and does not rather say that His own is the Spirit, through Whom He hath wrought the Divine signs, be he anathema."
Well I don't disagree with that at all. The Holy Spirit is the Spirit of God. Christ is God.

But I am sure that there is nothing wrong with believing that Christ's humanity was energized by the Holy Spirit of God, as well as the fact that it is hypostatically united to the Logos!

Both/and. Christ is both God and the perfect saint.
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« Reply #178 on: October 01, 2011, 03:26:25 PM »

But where do you find the Fathers saying what you are saying?

Where do you find the Fathers saying that the Word became A man?
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« Reply #179 on: October 01, 2011, 03:34:25 PM »

Where do you find the Fathers saying that the Word became A man?
The Fathers all testify that the Word became man. Therefore the incarnate God can be referred to as a man (who is also God), and one is not compelled to believe that the Scriptures lie or are speaking in riddles. The word "a" is a big deal when fighting Nestorians, but not here.

If I were saying that God united himself to, assumed, shared a title with, or inhabited a man, sure. But I'm not. I'm saying that God became a real human being.

The Scriptures testify:

Authority to MEN.
The MAN Christ Jesus.
The Son of MAN.
The Second MAN is from heaven.
Come, see a MAN who told me all the things that I have done.

Ecce Homo.
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