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Author Topic: Eternal Life question  (Read 1193 times) Average Rating: 0
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TomS
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« on: April 28, 2003, 12:42:05 PM »

How do you respond to the non-Orthodox who say that the gift of "Eternal Life" is Reincarnation?

« Last Edit: April 28, 2003, 12:42:55 PM by TomS » Logged
Justin Kissel
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« Reply #1 on: April 28, 2003, 12:54:28 PM »

I'd say "How shallow and small a perspective on the afterlife! We are going to be judged and perhaps be in heaven after death, why would we want to come back to this fallen earth? God so wonderfully blesses us with His grace by not insisting that we come back to this place!"

Beyond that, if they want more theological proof, there's a number of texts in the NT that should help, like the one that says "it is appointed for a man to die one, and then, the judgment" or "I wish to leave this body and be with the Lord," or perhaps pointing out that there is no examples of reincarnation in the Bible (Elijah certainly isn't one since John the Baptist came "in the spirit of Elijah," not as Elijah himself--cf Lk. 1:17). Beyond that, ask them what early Christian teachers taught this (none of them will be Orthodox), and where this belief originally come from (sometimes they'll start saying something about how it entered Judaism through zoroastrianism or some other religion)
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Linus7
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« Reply #2 on: April 29, 2003, 07:36:12 PM »

Amen, Paradosis!

I would also ask them how many people they think occupied the planet earth in ages prior to this one. Most of the people who ever lived are alive right now.

There weren't enough humans alive in the past for all of us to have lived prior human lives.

How do the reincarnationists handle that problem? Are "new souls" being born all the time? What about karma, then?

Ever notice that people who claim to have lived past lives were always big shots? Everybody was Joan of Arc or Frederick the Great; nobody was Goober the Village Idiot.

Did all the Goobers achieve moksha?
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« Reply #3 on: May 14, 2003, 04:52:57 PM »

I hate to say this, Linus, but they would probably answer this by saying the "worms" and animals who lived well were re-incarnated into humans.  The whole idea is "de-humanizing"...

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pasadi97
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« Reply #4 on: May 08, 2011, 10:56:58 PM »

This is the ABC of eternal life
http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,35988.new.html

You read the thing before, you know what to respond.

Indian people comming back from comma or near death experience speak  of hell not of being worms.
http://www.near-death.com/hindu.html
Vasudev Pandey

Vasudev Pandey was interviewed in 1975 and again in 1976. He was born in 1921 and had nearly died in his home of what he described as "paratyphoid disease" when he was about 10 years old. Vasudev had been considered dead and his body had actually been taken to the cremation ground. However, some indications of life aroused attention, and Vasudev was removed to the hospital where doctors tried to revive him, using "injections," with eventual success. He remained unconscious for 3 days and then became able to describe the following experience (as narrated to us in 1975):

"Two persons caught me and took me with them. I felt tired after walking some distance; they started to drag me. My feet became useless. There was a man sitting up. He looked dreadful and was all black. He was not wearing any clothes. He said in a rage [to the attendants who had brought Vasudev] "I had asked you to bring Vasudev the gardener. Our garden is drying up. You have brought Vasudev the student." When I regained consciousness, Vasudev the gardener was standing in front of me [apparently in the crowd of family and servants who had gathered around the bed of the ostensibly dead Vasudev]. He was hale and hearty. People started teasing him saying, "Now it is your turn." He seemed to sleep well in the night, but the next morning he was dead."

In reply to questions about details, Vasudev said that the "black man" had a club and used foul language. Vasudev identified him as Yamraj, the Hindu god of the dead. He said that he was "brought back" by the same two men who had taken him to Yamraj in the first place. Vasudev's mother (who had died before the time of the interview) had been a pious woman who read scriptures that included descriptions of Yamraj. Vasudev, even as a boy before his near-death experience, was quite familiar with Yamraj.

Durga Jatav

Durga Jatav, a man approximately 50 years old, was interviewed in November, 1979, and again 3 months later. About 30 years before, he had been ill for several weeks, suffering from what had been diagnosed as typhoid. When his body "became cold" for a couple of hours, his family thought he had died. He revived, however, and on the third day following this he told his family he had been taken to another place by 10 people. He had tried to escape, but they had then cut off his legs at the knees to prevent his escape. He was taken to a place where there were tables and chairs and 40 or 50 people sitting. He recognized no one. They looked at his "papers," saw that his name was not on their list, and said, "Why have you brought him here? Take him back." To this Durga had replied, "How can I go back? I don't have feet." He was then shown several pairs of legs, he recognized his own, and they were somehow reattached. He was then sent back with the instructions not to "stretch" (bend?) his knees so that they could mend. (Durga's older sister, who was also interviewed, corroborated his account of his apparent death and revival.)

Durga's sister and a neighbor noticed a few days after he revived that marks had appeared on his knees; there had previously been no such marks there. These folds, or deep fissures, in the skin on the front of Durga's knees were still visible in 1979. There was no bleeding or pain in the knees other than the discomfort engendered by Durga's following the "instructions" to keep his knees in a fixed position. X-ray photographs that we had taken in 1981 showed no abnormality below the surface of the skin.

Durga had not heard of such experiences before his own near-death experience. He did not see his physical body from some other position in space. He said that afterward the experience seemed like a dream; nevertheless, he claimed that it had strengthened his faith in God.

One informant for this case (the headman of the village where Durga lived) said that at the time of Durga's experience another person by the same name had died in Agra (about 30 km away); however, neither Durga nor his older sister were able to confirm this statement.

Chhajju Bania

Chhajju Bania was interviewed in 1981, at which time he was about 40 years old. His near-death experience had occurred some 6 years earlier. He became ill with fever and his condition deteriorated until he was thought to have died, at which time his relatives began preparing his body for cremation. However, he revived, and he gave the following account of his experience as he remembered it afterward:

"Four black messengers came and held me. I asked, "Where are you taking me?" They took me and seated me near the god. My body had become small. There was an old lady sitting there. She had a pen in her hand, and the clerks had a heap of books in front of them. I was summoned ... One of the clerks said, "We don't need Chhajju Bania (trader). We had asked for Chhajju Kumhar (potter). Push him back and bring the other man. He (meaning Chhajju Bania) has some life remaining." I asked the clerks to give me some work to do, but not to send me back. Yamraj was there sitting on a high chair with a white beard and wearing yellow clothes. He asked me, "What do you want?" I told him that I wanted to stay there. He asked me to extend my hand. I don't remember whether he gave me something or not. Then I was pushed down [and revived]."

Chhajju mentioned that he later learned that a person called Chhajju Kumhar had died at about the same time that he (Chhajju Bania) revived. He said that his behavior had changed following his near-death experience, particularly in the direction of his becoming more honest.

Chhajju's wife, Saroj, remembered her husband's experience, but her account of what he told her about the near-death experience differed in some details from his statement. For example, she said he had told her (about reviving) that at the place to which the four men had taken him there "was a man with a beard with lots of papers in front of him" (not an old lady). The bearded man said, "It is not his turn. Bring Chhajju Kori (a weaver)" (Not Chhajju Kumhar). Other discrepancies between the two accounts concerned unimportant details. Saroj remembered her husband telling her that he had not wanted to leave "there" and that he had been "pushed down" before he revived.

Mangal Singh

Mangal Singh was interviewed in March, 1983, when he was 79 years old. He described his near-death experience, which had occurred approximately 5 or 6 years earlier. Unlike most subjects who have had near-death experiences, he was not ill at the time, or did not consider himself to be so. He gave the following description of his experience:

"I was lying down on a cot when two people came, lifted me up, and took me along. I heard a hissing sound, but I couldn't see anything. Then I came to a gate. There was grass, and the ground seemed to be sloping. A man was there, and he reprimanded the men who had brought me, "Why have you brought the wrong person? Why have you not brought the man you had been sent for?" The two men [who had brought Mangal] ran away, and the senior man said, "You go back." Suddenly I saw two big pots of boiling water, although there was no fire, no firewood, and no fireplace. Then the man pushed me with his hand and said, "You had better hurry up and go back." When he touched me, I suddenly became aware of how hot his hand was. Then I realized why the pots were boiling. The heat was coming from his hands. Suddenly I regained consciousness, and I had a severe burning sensation in my left arm."

The area developed the appearance of a boil. Mangal showed it to a doctor who applied some ointment. The area healed within 3 days but left a residual mark on the left arm, which was examined.

In response to questions, Mangal said that he thought that he might have been sleeping at the time of the experience, but he was not sure of this. He was unable to describe the appearance of the persons figuring in the experience. It seemed to be less visual than auditory and tactile. He did remember that the senior "official" had picked up a lathi (a heavy Indian staff) with which he intended to beat the lesser "employees" before they ran away. Another person had died in the locality at or about the time he revived, but Mangal and his family made no inquires about the suddenness of this person's death and did not even learn his name.


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« Reply #5 on: May 09, 2011, 02:48:14 AM »

The link you provided , and the near death stories, interesting ......

I can't buy any of it though....I clicked on the link and chose the religion button, it really does contradict itself, it's for and against religion..At the same time it says people that come back ,shake religion off and become more spiritual and one Doesn't have to worship Jesus Christ anymore it's not necessary for salvation, but just practicing Love Love Love, that's if one is a Christian didn't it know Christ is the essence of love or love itself..Then it mentiones some western Author ...I stopped There and didn't read any Further.... A western Author is Going to know about Faith and Religion and salvation ,because he experience this deception and fell for it hook line and sinker and Know more about it and wrote a book,Than the Holy Apostles that walked ,talked,and were taught by Christ our God Himself, i don't think so....

Because we Orthodox Christians  have received the Truth from our Holy Fathers Faith once Delivered unto salvation.....There is nothing else .......

My Opinion.....
This is all Satanic Deception.....It's best to flee from it....It Takes truths from scripture and twists/mixes  it with lies , to lure and to confuse the gullible ,Satan is the Author of confusion for sure,and a roaring Lion going to and fro seeking who he can devour....... I reject the whole link and what ever else it has to say and rebuke it In Jesus Holy Name........ police

« Last Edit: May 09, 2011, 03:01:17 AM by stashko » Logged

ГОСПОДЕ ГОСПОДЕ ,ПОГЛЕДАЈ СА НЕБА ,ДОЂИ И ПОСЕТИ ТВОЈ ВИНОГРАД ТВОЈА ДЕСНИЦА ПОСАДИЛА АМИН АМИН.
pasadi97
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« Reply #6 on: May 09, 2011, 08:47:42 AM »

That is an hindu site. I gave the link because the hindu website explains where some hindus have gone into near death experience and basically they say reincarnation is lie, we went to hell.
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deusveritasest
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« Reply #7 on: May 09, 2011, 03:57:23 PM »

Wow. You just necromanced an 8 year old thread.
« Last Edit: May 09, 2011, 03:57:40 PM by deusveritasest » Logged

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